
                  Operating System Comparisons (2) (Fidonet)

                 Saturday, 27-Nov-1999 to Friday, 03-Dec-1999

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From: Jack Stein                                        28-Nov-99 23:55:18
  To: Michael Wendell                                   30-Nov-99 21:01:14
Subj: judge is wrong

Michael Wendell wrote in a message to Jack Stein:

-> Has Linux found it's way out of the bookstores, and onto some computer
store
-> shelves, such as egghead yet?  I'm a little curious about this one...  I
 MW> always

 MW> for quite a while now.  i worked in a computer software
 MW> store christmas '96 and we had linux on the shelf.

What retail store was that?  None around here ever carried it that I know of,
at least none of the chains.

-> retailers, such as Gateway, didn't offer OS/2 as an optional 
-> install or even  a parallel install?  It would seem to me that 
-> totally ignoring 15 million  users

 MW> gateway used to offer os/2 as an option.  its been awhile
 MW> though. 

Nope, I don't believe they ever did.  When was that, I've been following them
since before IBM's version of OS/2 existed?

                                              Jack 
--- timEd/2-B11
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From: Jack Stein                                        29-Nov-99 00:00:01
  To: David Bowerman                                    30-Nov-99 21:01:14
Subj: judge is wrong

David Bowerman wrote in a message to Jack Stein:

 JS> Has Linux found it's way out of the bookstores, and onto some
 JS> computer store shelves, such as egghead yet?  I'm a little curious
 JS> about this one...  I always thought a bit strange that you had to
 JS> go to a book store to buy a computer operating system...

 DB> Several local computer stores now sell various Linux
 DB> distributions.  As well, several local clone merchants are
 DB> now selling Linux preloaded.  The ones that are small enough
 DB> that Microsoft doesn't have the leverage through pricing
 DB> that they have over a larger vendor.

Yes, you could always find a vendor or two with 12 customers that would do
anything for a sale, including selling MS OS's w/o a license.

 DB> You can also get Linux preloaded from IBM.

I know that IBM is now supporting LINUX.  That's a scary thought...  IBM
doesn't sell desktop computers at retail stores anymore though.

                                              Jack 
--- timEd/2-B11
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From: Jack Stein                                        29-Nov-99 00:13:05
  To: Denny Hoff                                        30-Nov-99 21:01:14
Subj: Re: judge is wrong

Denny Hoff wrote in a message to Jack Stein:

-=> Jack Stein wrote to Scott Little <=-

 JS> Has Linux found it's way out of the bookstores, and onto some computer
 JS> store shelves, such as egghead yet?  I'm a little curious about this

 DH> As a matter of fact Jack, you can walk into Electronics
 DH> Boutique and find     a shelf full of Linux products. 
 DH> Electronics Boutique is a national chain,     so I think
 DH> that it qualifies as mainstream.  They carry Redhat,Caldera,
 DH> and Mandrake distributions as well as Wordperfect and
 DH> other apps.  

Now that you mention it, I believe I did see LINUX at the book section of one
of those stores last year at the Pgh airport.

 JS> one...  I always thought a bit strange that you had to go to a 
 JS> book
 JS> store to buy a computer operating system...  I also always found it
 JS> strange that in a supposedly super competitive business like selling
 JS> computers, that at least some large retailers, such as Gateway, didn't
 JS> offer OS/2 as an optional install or even a parallel install?  It would
 JS> seem to me that totally ignoring 15 million users in a cut throat
 JS> business was pretty wierd.  Wonder how that works?  If the auto
 DH>        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 DH>     Jack, you and I both know that business is driven by
 DH> profit.  We don't      need an expert to tell us that
 DH> marketing is what ultimately brings that     profit in.  You
 DH> tell me what is easier to sell, Flashy|limited| and     
 DH> slightly broken or, mundane|flexible to the absurd| and
 DH> solid as a rock?        

I understand your point, but, when competition gets tough, people look for any 
angle they can find to get some market share.  15 million OS/2 users, and
growing, and a lot of dis-satisfaction with windows is something competitors
should have found impossible to resist.  I don't know any business that would
turn their backs on 15 million customers, it's absurd.

 DH>  As a following point to that,  it becomes easy to sell 
 DH> incremental fixes     when the user is looking to do away with 
 DH> a "small annoyance" verses "why change? It works just fine." 

The reason you change is because you are in a battle with everyone to sell
computers, you need an edge, and offering alternatives, particularly OS/2,
which is the same OS as WIN except it works, is something that should have
been irresistable for large retail companies.  It would have been if IBM had
pushed the issue (they never did) and MS was not threatening retailers if they 
even thought about selling anything but MS.

 DH> Jack if you are referring to
 DH> (and I know you     are)  IBMs apparent scuttling of OS/2
 DH> back in late '95,  It is simple. IBM     saw that selling
 DH> the better mouse trap was not going to pull in as much    
 DH> money as selling the slightly broken alternatives. 

According to IBM, and what was brought out at this latest trial, MS threatened 
IBM with the same crap, and since IBM sells a ton of MS software, they caved
in and pulled OS/2 from the market.  

 DH>  I don't even think     that you are running Warp 4 are you 
 DH> Jack?  Why? Because Warp 3 with at     least FP17 installed is
 DH> solid, reliable and "works fine".  

No fixpaks needed, works fine w/o them.  I'm not a typical user though.  I've
been at this since 1983 and only bought ONE new computer.  I still run the
same computer I bought new in 1991 I think it was.  Very few people by new
OS's these days, they buy a new computer with it already installed.  MS only
very recently started selling their OS to the public, I think you had to be a
retailer to even buy a copy?

 DH> Meaning you     haven't bought a copy since about 1994 while 
 DH> your eqivulent in the WIN     side of the house has bought 
 DH> WIN95,WIN98, and is about to buy 2000.  Now lets talk about 
 DH> all those "productivity addons" that are there to      overcome 
 DH> design flaws and bugs. My estimate puts the WIN person at @    
 DH> $450 to your $68 .  Hmm.  Maybe it is a conspirasy;-)  

Thats right.  Think about only two car dealers on earth.  One sells a Ford
Pinto for 10 grand, one sells a Mercedes for 10 grand.  It would not take long 
in normal markets for the bum selling the Pinto at the same price to go out of 
business.  Essentially, in this screwed up system, the Pinto stomped all over
the Mercedes.  When things don't add up, it's most always because someone has
their finger where it shouldn't be.  In this case, it is definitely MS and
Ziff-Davis, and probably IBM and INTEL as well.

 DH> Now before you     go and blow a gasket on me Jack,  I feel it
 DH> is fair to warn you that I      am not a WIN user and don't
 DH> have any MS product on my system. I have     used OS/2 since
 DH> the 2.0 days, and only recently migrated to Linux full    
 DH> time.  So I don't fit in the usual box of someone making
 DH> these arguments.     

Your arguments are OK, you _may_ even be correct.  I don't think so however,
and neither does the court, both in 1995 and today, the court sees a lot wrong 
with what has been going on, not that it matters much what a pack of lawyers
think, but I think they got it right on this one, at least as far as they
went.  I think it is probably worse than they know.  
               
                                              Jack 
--- timEd/2-B11
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From: MICHAEL WENDELL                                   30-Nov-99 09:03:14
  To: JACK STEIN                                        30-Nov-99 21:01:14
Subj: judge is wrong

-> -> Has Linux found it's way out of the bookstores, and onto some computer
store
-> -> shelves, such as egghead yet?  I'm a little curious about this one...  I
->  MW> always
->  MW> for quite a while now.  i worked in a computer software
->  MW> store christmas '96 and we had linux on the shelf.
-> What retail store was that?  None around here ever carried it that I know
of,
-> at least none of the chains.

babbages.  they had it last year there also.  (they used to call me when
they were short handed or when someone went on vacation)

-> -> retailers, such as Gateway, didn't offer OS/2 as an optional 
-> -> install or even  a parallel install?  It would seem to me that 
-> -> totally ignoring 15 million  users
->  MW> gateway used to offer os/2 as an option.  its been awhile
->  MW> though. 
-> Nope, I don't believe they ever did.  When was that, I've been
following them
-> since before IBM's version of OS/2 existed?

i remember seeing ad copy in computer shopper for it when os2 warp came
out.  i noticed it because i had just bought a copy of os/2 warp.

mike

--- Platinum Xpress/Win/Wildcat5! v3.0pr2
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From: Rob Basler                                        30-Nov-99 12:32:06
  To: Scott Little                                      30-Nov-99 21:01:14
Subj: big brother FUD

SL>Today I scrolled through the pages of slashdot, geeknews and wired to see
SL>claims stating Microsoft has a backdoor open for the NSA, the National
SL>Security Agency, in the windows source code.

Essentially that is correct, the second key allows anyone to install
their own crypto system which could do a number of interesting
things including sending your "encrypted" information over the
net to the crypto module makers' dastardly lair. The second key allows
additional crypto systems to install themselves without disturbing
(breaking) the Microsoft key which is needed by other components for the
crypto system to work.

The real benefit of this is to overseas cryptography makers who can now
install components into the Windows crypto system which they could not
previously do since crypto components have to be signed by a key in
order to be loaded by the crypto system.  Previously it had to be the
Windows key, and if you were outside the US, that simply was not going
to happen due to U.S. cryptography export laws.  Now you just install
your own key into the NSAKey slot, and your crypto module will load.

SL>NSA, doesn't sign. The NSA insisted that their must be a backup key. What
if
SL>the Microsoft key were cracked, then what would we do? Windows users would
SL>be forced to use a beaten key.

What a load of crap.  If they can crack one key, they can crack 2.  In
any case, two keys is always weaker than one.

SL>In all of the madness of this situation, there has been one obvious detail
SL>that has been overlooked. Do you think that FBI agents tracking down child
SL>pornographers on the net use their .gov addresses? Hell no, why in the
world
SL>would Microsoft or the NSA be so stupid as to name their backdoor after
SL>their agency?

That the name got out was a *MISTAKE*, the file that contained the
information was not supposed to be released.

SL>real support. Obviously the people posting these rumors were complete
idiots
SL>trying to ruin the Microsoft reputation as the worlds top software
SL>developer.

Ruin their reputation, chuckle, they do a fine job themselves.  The
source of this fiasco can be layed at no-one's feet except Microsoft's.
They put in the key, they released the symbol file.  The people who
discovered this problem and are now exploiting it are *not* complete
idiots.  It is people who put their head in the sand and deny there is a
problem whose mental fitness you should be concerned with.

SL>comes jealousy. The fact is, most people out there are more than satisfied
SL>with their Microsoft products.

That's quite an opening.  I know personally not one person who is more
than satisified with their MS software.  They all have wierd problems
that they have just learned to live with.

SL>McCarthyism boys and girls? The security issue in this case was more of a
SL>witch hunt to make Microsoft look bad than a realistic security
SL>compromisation.

In the world of security, there is no such thing as a minor breach of
security.  If this breach allowed your employer to get access to your
medical records, find out that you have a degenerative disease that is
going to have to be paid for by the company medical plan, and then fired
you because of it, is it a minor security problem?

Rob.
___
 X SLMR 2.1a X I haven't lost my mind...it's backed up on tape somewhere

--- Maximus/2 3.01
 * Origin: Frog Hollow Port Moody BC 604-469-0264/0284 (1:153/290)

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From: Rob Basler                                        30-Nov-99 11:50:07
  To: Jack Stein                                        30-Nov-99 21:01:14
Subj: judge is wrong

JS>Has Linux found it's way out of the bookstores, and onto some computer
store
JS>shelves, such as egghead yet?  I'm a little curious about
JS>this one...  I always thought a bit strange that you had to
JS>go to a book store to buy a computer operating system...

Redhat Linux is available at a number of computer stores here in
Vancouver, I'm pretty sure I even saw it at the IBM Home computing
store.

Rob.
___
 X SLMR 2.1a X If you are squeemish about blood, stop heckling me!!!

--- Maximus/2 3.01
 * Origin: Frog Hollow Port Moody BC 604-469-0264/0284 (1:153/290)

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From: Scott Little                                      29-Nov-99 11:15:07
  To: Martin Prieto                                     01-Dec-99 01:53:10
Subj: why penguins can't fly on the deskto

 [ 24 Nov 99 17:37, Martin Prieto wrote to Scott Little ]

 MP>     I think that if Linux don't get a good printing spooler, dameon or
 MP>  whatever it will not make his place on mass population. Im using
 MP>  Slackware, so maybe that with Red Hat it's easier.

Well, that'd be a start. RH or Debian... I went with RH since that's where all 
the attention is, and therefore when most of the support/dev is.

There is a project to develop an advanced print spooler for *nix but I can't
remember the URL....

        Problem with LP1 or your printer is on fire.

-- Scott Little, 3:712/848@fidonet | slittle@bbs.slittle.com

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From: Scott Little                                      29-Nov-99 11:26:13
  To: Jack Stein                                        01-Dec-99 01:53:10
Subj: judge is wrong

 [ 25 Nov 99 18:12, David Bowerman wrote to Jack Stein ]

 DB> Jack Stein wrote in a message to Scott Little:

 JS>> Has Linux found it's way out of the bookstores, and onto some
 JS>> computer store shelves, such as egghead yet?  I'm a little
 JS>> curious about this one...  I always thought a bit strange that
 JS>> you had to go to a book store to buy a computer operating
 JS>> system...

in your fantasy land, products are sold because they are 'superior' or some
nonsense. in the real world, they are sold for profit.

linux is free. the only way to make money from it is my adding some extra
value to it. this may be just a simple CDROM (to save download time), or
technical support, or a big manual.

my guess is linux is sold in bookstores because it is assumed people will also 
buy one or more forests in the form of manuals to go with it. there's also the 
Hey Buy This Book From Us Get Linux For Free thing...

-- Scott Little, 3:712/848@fidonet | slittle@bbs.slittle.com

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From: Scott Little                                      29-Nov-99 10:23:04
  To: Ron Nicholls                                      01-Dec-99 01:53:10
Subj: why penguins can't fly o

 => SL> that real people don't care what operating system they use. They just
 => SL> want to print stuff.
 => Unfortunately, you are quite correct. Nicely put.

er, that's not my article, but I do share the author's opinion on some of it
(including this one).

-- Scott Little, 3:712/848@fidonet  |  slittle@bbs.slittle.com


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From: Martin Prieto                                     01-Dec-99 02:26:05
  To: Jack Stein                                        01-Dec-99 15:53:05
Subj: Re: judge is wrong

 JS> What retail store was that?  None around here ever carried it that I
 JS> know of, at least none of the chains.

Here in Canada we have Futur Shop, as a multi-national chain. I know it 
spread across two provinces, but I don't know about the others. There 
are a lot in fact, as long as it's a store chain, surprising, isn't it? 
Small retailers, independant, don't sell any kind of Linux related 
material.

 JS> Nope, I don't believe they ever did.  When was that, I've been
 JS> following them since before IBM's version of OS/2 existed?

Corel is now selling Linux-ready computers, what about a bigger 
retailer such as Gateway?


(o_        UIN: 349 806 21                       _o) 
//\      Voice: MARTIN GET YOU ASS IN HERE!!     /\\ 
V_/_    e-mail: riverdale@penguinpowered.com    _\_V 

... While money doesn't buy love, it puts you in a great bargaining position
~~~ ReneWave v2.00 [NR]
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From: Jack Stein                                        01-Dec-99 07:43:04
  To: Scott Little                                      03-Dec-99 00:48:13
Subj: why penguins can't fly o

Scott Little wrote in a message to Ron Nicholls:

 => SL> that real people don't care what operating system they use. They just
 => SL> want to print stuff.
 => Unfortunately, you are quite correct. Nicely put.

 SL> er, that's not my article, but I do share the author's
 SL> opinion on some of it (including this one).

Of course.  Thats why they upgrade from DOS 2.1 to 3.0, 3.1, 3.3, 4.0, 5.0,
6.0, 6.2, 6.6, 7.0, WIN3.0, WIN 3.1, WIN 3.11, WIN 95, WIN 98, WIN 2000 and so 
on.  People upgade their software at every turn even when the upgrade is WORSE 
than the one being replaced.  People want the latest and greatest at every
turn, just look at the ads and you will see that.  

The problem is simply that people do not know what is available in OS's or
what to expect.  Retailers won't sell whats available, and developers won't
develope for other OS's.   A whole lot of that problem is the direct fault of
MS marketing practices, which besides being common knowledge to anyone
semi-knowledgeable of the computer scene, has been the findings of 2 seperate
federal courts, once in 1995, and once in 1999.

                                              Jack 
--- timEd/2-B11
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From: Jack Stein                                        01-Dec-99 07:51:26
  To: Scott Little                                      03-Dec-99 00:48:13
Subj: judge is wrong

Scott Little wrote in a message to Jack Stein:

 SL> in your fantasy land, products are sold because they are
 SL> 'superior' or some nonsense. in the real world, they are
 SL> sold for profit.

Nope. In "my fantasy land" people BUY  products because they are superior, or
there is a price advantage.  Retailers SELL what people buy, for profit.  

People were not able to BUY anything but MS OS's because that is what came
installed on their computers, and nothing else was offered.  Nothing else was
offered because MS made sure retailers would be punished big time if they did, 
and ZIFF-DAVIS made sure people didn't know enough to care.  I also suspect
IBM was happy with this arragement.

 SL> linux is free. the only way to make money from it is my
 SL> adding some extra value to it. this may be just a simple
 SL> CDROM (to save download time), or technical support, or a
 SL> big manual.

Slackware and Redhat do that, but historically only bookstores offered the OS
product.  Sounds like this might be changing, but don't hold your breath.

 SL> my guess is linux is sold in bookstores because it is
 SL> assumed people will also buy one or more forests in the form
 SL> of manuals to go with it. there's also the Hey Buy This Book
 SL> From Us Get Linux For Free thing...

Yeah, so what?  No different than buy this computer, get a MS OS free deal
every retailer on earth offers?   It would cost GATEWAY and Dell NOTHING to
add a LINUX boot system to their computers, or actually cost them LESS to
offer LINUX as an alternative to WIN.  They could have done the same thing
with OS/2 in 1991, 92, 93, 94 and 95.  Had they done that, Dell would have
followed suit, and WIN 95 either would not have been released or would have
been re-designed to compete with a better product.  Instead, they killed the
competition rather than develope a better product.

                                              Jack 
--- timEd/2-B11
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From: Jack Stein                                        01-Dec-99 08:05:27
  To: Rob Basler                                        03-Dec-99 00:48:13
Subj: judge is wrong

Rob Basler wrote in a message to Jack Stein:

JS>Has Linux found it's way out of the bookstores, and onto some computer
store
JS>shelves, such as egghead yet?  I'm a little curious about
JS>this one...  I always thought a bit strange that you had to
JS>go to a book store to buy a computer operating system...

 RB> Redhat Linux is available at a number of computer stores
 RB> here in Vancouver, I'm pretty sure I even saw it at the IBM
 RB> Home computing store.

This is a good sign.  Will be interesting to see if more computer stores start 
to display products other than MS products now that MS is in the limelight
again for shooting retailers for thinking about selling non-MS OS's.  

                                              Jack 
--- timEd/2-B11
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From: David Bowerman                                    02-Dec-99 20:40:02
  To: Jack Stein                                        03-Dec-99 06:14:26
Subj: judge is wrong

Jack Stein wrote in a message to Scott Little:

 JS> Yeah, so what?  No different than buy this computer, get a MS OS
 JS> free deal every retailer on earth offers?   It would cost GATEWAY
 JS> and Dell NOTHING to add a LINUX boot system to their computers, or
 JS> actually cost them LESS to offer LINUX as an alternative to WIN. 
 JS> They could have done the same thing with OS/2 in 1991, 92, 93, 94
 JS> and 95.  Had they done that, Dell would have followed suit, and WIN
 JS> 95 either would not have been released or would have been
 JS> re-designed to compete with a better product.  Instead, they killed
 JS> the competition rather than develope a better product.

What I found to be a real chuckle was a recent case locally.  A company
purchased 50 new computers that came with Windows 98 preinstalled together
neatly packaged copies of the Win98 CD and a boot floppy.  The new machines
had their hard drives reformatted and Windows NT loaded.  They now had 50
Win98 CDs which were used to upgrade a collection of older computers from
Win95 to Win98 SE.  One of the company clerks called the anti-piracy hotline
and next thing you know, a couple of sheriffs and a court order to impound all 
the computers for "evidence" are at the door on a Thursday afternoon.  No
attempt made to contact the company as this would have given them a chance to
"hide the evidence of their blatant piracy".  Heck, there was even an argument 
about whether their Netware server was going to be impounded -- after all,
they might have copies of illegal software stored on it.

The mess ended up in court the next Wednesday.  Gee... they had the licenses
for their copies of Windows NT on the new machines and the Win98 or Win95
licenses for all the older machines (actually, between the WinNT, Win98 and
Win95 licenses, they had more licenses than computers).  Paperwork all looked
fine for their application software.  The attorney prosecuting the case then
tried to promote the argument that recycling the Windows 98 CDs for use on the 
older machines was piracy.  Unfortunately for that line of reasoning, the
judge had trouble swallowing the argument that installing a copy of Windows 98 
for which the company had a license after the machine on which it was
originally installed had had it's hard drive reformatted and a different OS
installed qualified as using the OS on two machines at the same time.  The
judge's decision was that no evidence of piracy was shown.

In the meantime, they had to rent a batch of computers and make use the
salemen's laptops to keep in business.  A process which has some of their
executives looking at other OS/office suites for their next purchases and a
decision to switch to Windows NT Server (with an upgrade to Windows 2000 when
released) on the new network server scrapped in favour of an upgrade to
Netware 5 with 5.1 as the upgrade.  My time and effort in helping their IS gal 
get the rental computers set up over the weekend is being billed as part of
the costs which the judge awarded.

Regards,
       David

--- timEd/2 1.10.y2k+
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