
                   comp.os.os2.advocacy             (Usenet)

                 Saturday, 11-Dec-1999 to Friday, 17-Dec-1999

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From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           11-Dec-99 02:16:09
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 05:07:10
Subj: Re: Jury scheduled to hear Caldera vs. Microsoft next January

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <L9BY9tzSDwrQ-pn2-8IdvIoI8PvdT@localhost>, on 12/10/99 at 08:45 PM,
   jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens) said:

> But even if you were the crimsomest redneck on the planet, it would 
> have made no difference for the facts of the case.

Nah, I couldn't be a redneck. I don't mind the white socks, but Blue
Ribbon Beer is undrinkable.

(Here in the US we have an expression from a once popular Country and
Western Song which goes Red neck, white socks, and Blue Ribbon Beer)

--
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Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
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From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           11-Dec-99 02:19:24
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 05:07:10
Subj: Re: Jury scheduled to hear Caldera vs. Microsoft next January

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <82sa6v$eq7$1@news.campuscwix.net>, on 12/10/99 at 05:44 PM,
   "Asshole Mulligan" <cmulligan@hipcrime.vocab.org> said:


> Are you referring to Domino Server?  That runs on NT, Linux and a couple
> other OS's besides WarpServer.

No, Asshole, I was referring to Warp Server for eBusiness, the latest
version of Warp released within the past few months.

--
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Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
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From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           11-Dec-99 02:21:16
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 05:07:10
Subj: Re: Jury scheduled to hear Caldera vs. Microsoft next January

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <65f05s85ocor9gjnluiam3j3qaugkt0e6i@4ax.com>, on 12/10/99 at 05:20 PM,
   DC <dc@pdq.net> said:

> Win98 can cleanly be upgraded to MSIE5.0 without an intermediate
> 'update' (via the WWW?) required.  You're talking nonsense, Bob.

Go get your Mommy to read the thread and explain it to you. You obviously
have a serious reading and/or comprehension problem.

What I said was that the CD will not apply fixes to Win98, Release 1
unless you first update IE to 5.x. Anyway, the matter is moot since the
client in question wanted rid of IE and MS after reading of the security
problems with it.


--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
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From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           11-Dec-99 02:24:23
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 05:07:10
Subj: Re: Jury scheduled to hear Caldera vs. Microsoft next January

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <J3a44.47089$zd.527112@news1.alsv1.occa.home.com>, on 12/10/99 at 04:42
PM,
   "Brent Davies" <brentdaviesNOSPAM@home.com> said:

> I second that.  I've installed IE5 on every system in my network using
> "Client Software" CD from TechNet.  I launch setup and let it copy
> files.  When it wants a reboot, I say yes, then take the CD out of the
> drive and go to the next system.  There most definitely is some post-
> reboot configuration running in the background, but it does NOT require
> the installation path to be present.  I know this because I am off at
> another workstation with my CD running setup while the post-
> reboot config is taking place on the last workstation, without the CD in
> the drive.  It never asks for the CD again.

Well, this is absolutely immaterial. I am using the CD provided by MS not
whatever you are using. Typical of a MS whore trying to paint shit white.

How does it feel when Billy slips up the Rocky Road?


--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
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From: pjbrew@nospam.com                                 11-Dec-99 00:28:16
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 05:07:10
Subj: Re: Windows 1.0 was running in 1983, Mac appeared in 1984 

From: "Phil Brewster" <pjbrew@nospam.com>

On Thu, Dec 9, 1999 8:10 PM, Michiel Denie <mailto:florin@anguish.org>
wrote:
>Madwen <madwen@mailbag.com> wrote in message
>news:madwen-70CD17.14051508121999@news.binc.net...
>> In article <slrn84ru29.2vn.tzs@www.tzs.net>, Tim Smith
>> <tzs@halcyon.com> wrote:
>>
>[snip]
>>
>> The point never was what platform could have the _longest_ file name
>> potential.  You guys really make me laugh my ass off.  You cite these
>> file name length and MHz stats like you are measuring the length of
>> your... well you get the message.  One can almost detect a hint of
>> testosterone in the air reading over these kinds of posts. The point of
>> it is and always was what is optimum for the user.  It's what you do
>> with it.... NOT how big it is!  :)
>>
>
>You started, so I can finish it.. this proves my
>long time suspicion. There's nothing wrong with the
>Mac by itself. It's just that it's a computer for
>girls! Using a Mac is like carrying a handbag. It's
>really quite practical, but a real man wouldn't be
>caught dead with one.
>
>Michiel
>
>P.S. :)
>
>

-- All the more surprising that ads featuring a bunch of guys disco-dancing
in purple bunny suits didn't attract more Mac users, then, one must
suppose....

Cheers,


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From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           11-Dec-99 02:28:19
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 05:07:10
Subj: Re: OS/2 stable and faster [was Re: While (slow)s/2 sucks, it's remarka

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <4e9vR6R51Xid-pn2-NJdKd4d0Iygd@pool1-14.laf.cioe.com>, on 12/11/99 at
03:59 AM,
   lwriemen@wcic.cioe.com (Lee Riemenschneider) said:

> My experience using Win98 on a 350MHz Celeron was that it felt sluggish 
> compared to my 75MHz Pentium OS/2 box.  This wasn't an apples to apples 
> comparison, because the OS/2 box was FW SCSI and 48M RAM vs. UDMA and 
> 32M RAM on the Win98 box.  However, people have told me that they have 
> experienced slowdowns going from Win95 to Win98 on the same hardware, 
> and the sluggishness I encountered on the Win98 box wasn't in 
> multi-tasking situations where the SCSI speed would come into play.

My principal machine is a Pentium II 400 with 128 Megs of Ram, two 9 gig
IBM SCSI drives, an 8x SCSI CD-ROM, and an ATAPI CR-ROM R/W. I make
comparisons between Warp and Win 98 on this machine. I also made them with
Win95 before it was removed for Win 98.

I compare opening a rather large (2000 cells) spreadsheet and changing one
cell which affects all other cells. I use Lotus 1-2-3 Release 1.1 for Warp
and the latest 1-2-3 for Windows 98 from the Win98 SmartSuite. I also make
a comparison by opening the same 350,000 byte text file and searching for
a unique word which appears on page 123.

In both cases, Warp is faster by about 12%.  Windows 95 was also slower
but only by about 9%. I have repeated this test 20 times with virtually no
differences. I must also point out that when booted in OS/2, the system is
on a peer-peer four machine network keeping track of volumes from C to X,
running a screen saver program, Faxworks, Relish, Watchcat, and Theseus.
Nothing but the Desktop is running when Windows is loaded.


--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
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From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           11-Dec-99 02:39:23
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 05:07:10
Subj: Re: Purchasing OS/2

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <3851A6B9.5B6A614B@WarpCity.com>, on 12/10/99 at 05:19 PM,
   Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com> said:

> So right joseph and Windows2000 still does not
> equal OS/2 Warp 4 in power and stability and more
> frightening: it requires more hardware.

I wonder if MS has yet found out that some machines have more than 64 megs
of memory and multiple processors.

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
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From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           11-Dec-99 02:41:02
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 05:07:10
Subj: Re: Purchasing OS/2

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <MPG.12bb9702e78c2204989680@news-server.mgfairfax.rr.com>, on 12/11/99
at 03:44 AM,
   David H. McCoy <fake@forgitaboutit.com> said:

> Of course Win2k requires more hardware, because it does more. 

From what objective writers have written in the press, the only thing it
does more of is crash. Even MS admitted this in an article in the Wall
Street Journal.

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
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From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           11-Dec-99 02:43:05
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 05:07:10
Subj: Re: Purchasing OS/2

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <MPG.12bba62bb2e3af03989682@news-server.mgfairfax.rr.com>, on 12/11/99
at 04:49 AM,
   David H. McCoy <fake@forgitaboutit.com> said:


> But Kris, let's be realistic. Most of us here are concerned with at home
> use  and at home, Win2k just isn't that bad.  The thing is adding great
> PnP, USB,  DVD, DirectX 7.0, a better interface, a slew of improvements
> to decrease  rebooting needs, surely all of this comes at the increase
> of more resources.

> More features equals more resources.

Anything that Windows 2K can do, Warp can do as well albeit with different
application software. Windows 98 requires more resources than Warp 4.
Without third party software, W2K cannot do voice typing which Warp 4 can
do and does here constantly. Win2K according to the Wall Street Journal
article one day last week crashed far more frequently than Win98 or NT
4.0. They were testing the limited release version, BTW. Warp doesn't
crash when properly installed and maintained. My Domino Server ran for 412
days until a power failure of 8 hours duration during a hurricane this
Fall.

So, I can do FAR more simultaneously with a much more stable OS than
anything MS has ever produced. I have PnP, USB, DVD, and DirectX although
I don't know or care what level of DirectX since I don't play games or
watch movies on my WORKstation.

And anyone who prefers the insane, ugly, Windows interface to Presentation
Manager is either a moron or a paid whore for MS like you.


--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
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From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           11-Dec-99 02:51:25
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 05:07:10
Subj: Re: When will it be 100% done?

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <MPG.12bb973b590b9f61989681@news-server.mgfairfax.rr.com>, on 12/11/99
at 03:45 AM,
   David H. McCoy <fake@forgitaboutit.com> said:

> No suprise. Bob Germer is the uber-racists of OS/2. It is a shame that
> so many  OS/2 users don't pick their allies more carefully.

Ah, Herr Goebels, you are at it again.

Marty, another MS whore like you, deliberately took statements out of
context in another newsgroup. He was slapped down hard about Canuck being
a totally acceptable reference to Canadians. One even pointed out that the
National Hockey League team in Vancouver is called the Canucks.

And as I clearly stated the term Arab terrorist was used to differentiate
between true believers (Arab terrorists) who are acting according to their
training and belief as opposed to nut cases like the Unabomber or the
school shooters who are mentally ill at best.

But the truth has no impact on sociopaths like you.


--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
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From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           11-Dec-99 02:55:26
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 05:07:10
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <38516e90_4@news.cadvision.com>, on 12/10/99 at 02:19 PM,
   "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com> said:


> The point I was making was that A-B does exactly the same thing with
> their distributor that Microsoft does with theirs.  The only difference
> is that MS signs contracts with as many distributors as possible, A-B
> signs with one.

> Both are perfectly ethical practices.

No they are not. The first is. The second is not when a company has a
monopoly position as does MS in its markets.


--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
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From: andrew@netneurotic.de                             11-Dec-99 09:45:17
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 05:07:10
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: andrew@netneurotic.de (Andrew J. Brehm)

Michael K Greene <mgreene@exis.net> wrote:

> On Fri, 10 Dec 1999 17:32:00 -0800, Tim Martin wrote:
> 
> >Here's some hot news for all you NON-Warp City Members:
> 
> Tim,
> 
> Any other company would get a "great!!!", but let's look at who you are
> talking about - Innoval???? 

Why? What's wrong with Innoval?

-- 
Fan of Woody Allen
User of MacOS, BeOS, LinuxPPC
Supporter of Pepperoni Pizza

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From: jglatt@spamgone-borg.com                          11-Dec-99 08:51:29
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 05:07:10
Subj: Re: Jury scheduled to hear Caldera vs. Microsoft next January

From: jglatt@spamgone-borg.com (Jeff Glatt)

>"Stuart Fox" <stuartf@datacom.co.nz>
>Proof that you are really a Boob - you can't even add someone to a
>killfile - or was I just sinbinned?

Oh you don't know? Boob Germer seems to have a LOT of trouble getting
his "killfiles" to work. He keep replying to me as well after claiming
that he killfiled me. As usual, his "story" of why that was so took
numerous implausible, inconsistent turns. First, it was because he was
using a notebook computer to post to this newsgroup and didn't have
the killfile setup on that. Later, he claimed that the notebook
computer was strictly for business use, and it would be "irresponsible
and illiegal" to use it for other purposes such as posting messages to
this newsgroup. Next, he claimed that he was using a relative's
computer, and didn't want to mess with their computer to setup a
fillfile. Of course, he did mess with their computer to setup his sig
file.

And so it goes. With Boob, there are always inconsistencies and
implausibilities surrounding ever-changing anecdotes. That's because
he's a complete fake who is making up all of this stuff as he goes
along.

>>Boob Germer
>>In every instance, after the IE files are
>>copied, it reoboots, updates files, brings up a blank screen (color
>>depending on desktop settings) says it is updating the desktop and
>>shortcuts, sits there for 55 seconds, and reboots. Then it comes back up
>>brings up the desktop and immediately a error screen that it cannot find
>>drive Y (the volume for the CD) which is absolutely true.

>Never, ever have I seen IE do this.  And my experience is reflected in the
>comments of others - I don't know what the hell you were doing.

More to the point, Boob doesn't know what the hell he's doing. That's
because he's making all of this up, based upon rumors and
misinformation he has seen posted upon the internet. He has no such
"clients". It's all a ruse.

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From: rde@tavi.co.uk                                    11-Dec-99 09:17:10
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 10:16:29
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: rde@tavi.co.uk (Bob Eager)

On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 07:45:35, andrew@netneurotic.de (Andrew J. Brehm) 
wrote:

> Why? What's wrong with Innoval?

This is the company that quietly dropped support for, first, their 
newsreader, then (not so quietly) BOTH their OS/2 mail clients. 
Leaving loyal users out in the cold.

-- 
Bob Eager
rde at tavi.co.uk
PC Server 325; PS/2s 8595*3, 9595*3 (2*P60 + P90), 8535, 8570, 9556*2,
8580*6,
8557*2, 8550, 9577, 8530, P70, PC/AT..

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From: larso@commodore.                                  11-Dec-99 09:57:14
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 10:16:29
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg)

As I stepped out onto the Stoop, I saw Bob Germer write:
>    larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg) said:

> > How can you claim to send a "snail mail" to my University, when you
> > don't know where it is?  When you get your mail back Return to Sender,
> > don't blame me.
> 
> I seriously doubt that mail addressed 
> 
> Roderick Fraser, President
> President's Office  Univ Hall 3-1
> University of Alberta
> 114 Street - 89 Avenue
> Edmonton, Alberta  T6G 2M7
> Canada
> 
> will be returned as undeliverable.

No, but the line reading "that Lars guy who works for you in Calgary" will
be the source of many hours of hilarity.


-- 
Lars P. Ormberg     ICQ#:8827066
mailto:larso@ualberta.ca
The University of Lars:   http://www.ualberta.ca/~larso/

"The way you're bathed in light, reminds me of that night
God laid me down into your rose garden of trust and I was
swept away with nothin' left to say some helpless fool
yeah I was lost in a swoon of peace you're all I need to
find so when the time is right come to me sweetly, come
to me come to me..love will lead us, alright.  love will
lead us, she will lead us.  can you hear the dolphin's
cry?  see the road rise up to meet us its in the air we
breathe tonight love will lead us, she will lead us"
                            -Live, "The Dolphin's Cry"

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From: l_luciano@da.mob                                  11-Dec-99 10:02:25
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 10:16:29
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: l_luciano@da.mob (Stan Goodman)

On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 09:17:20, rde@tavi.co.uk (Bob Eager) wrote:

> On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 07:45:35, andrew@netneurotic.de (Andrew J. Brehm) 
> wrote:
> 
> > Why? What's wrong with Innoval?
> 
> This is the company that quietly dropped support for, first, their 
> newsreader, then (not so quietly) BOTH their OS/2 mail clients. 
> Leaving loyal users out in the cold.

.., thus proving conclusively that Innoval was in business to pay the 
grocery bills, rather than to promote OS/2. For the record, I use OS/2 
exclusively, but you really can't demand that a company put its resources 
into projects that don't pay back.

Happily, Innoval's Java-based mail client, "J Street Mailer", is now being 
developed and supported by users, and is now called "Polarbar". It is, as a
consequence, much improved over its condition when it was still an Innoval 
product, although it is still in its Beta phase. Things, you see, do 
sometimes work out for the best.

-------------
Stan Goodman
Qiryat Tiv'on
Israel

E-mail sent to l_luciano@da.mob will, of course, not reach me. Sorry.
Send E-mail to: domain: hashkedim dot com, username: stan.


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From: larso@commodore.                                  11-Dec-99 10:07:29
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 10:16:29
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg)

As I stepped out onto the Stoop, I saw Bob Germer write:
>    larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg) said:
> 
> > The prefatory remark is totally incorrect.  If the choice you are making
> > is a choice that nobody has provided for, no exercised force came along. 
> > Your options could easily have been limited by...say...your limits.
> 
> Let us suppose for a minute there were no anti-trust laws and Michelin
> became the tire manufacturer who produced 95% of the world's tires.

Michelin tires must really kick ass, huh?

> Michelin then went to GM, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda, Volkswagen, and
> Mercedes and said to them you must install our tires on every car you sell
> for $30 per tire. If you do not agree, then we will charge you $90 per
> tire.

Sure.  Any business is morally justified in doing this.

> Now no automobile manufacturer who wanted to stay competitive could do
> anything else but sign the agreement since $300 extra would make their
> vehicles much less competitive.

If they wanted to carry Michelin tires.  Maybe they decide to use
Goodyear instead.

> And let us further suppose that Michelin went to the major aftermarket
> retailers of accessories

So Canadian Tire and NAPA, but not, say, The Warehouse?  Okay, sure.  I'm
still mad at those NAPA bastards for not cutting my mail key last year.

>                           for your vehicle and said to them we will give
> you a discount on our accessories such as our custom inflation valves,
> blow out guards, sidewall cleaner, etc. if you only carry ours and not
> those of our competitors.

So I'm saving money on my Michelin-equipped car and saving money on my
tire accessories all at the same time.  Oooh, hurt me.

> Now also let us suppose that you wanted to buy a Jeep for a trek through
> the Sahara Desert and needed specialized low pressure tires which Michelin
> did not make. You would have two choices, pay $300 for tires for which you
> had no possible use or buy a Range Rover for about $5,000 more than the
> comparable Jeep since Range Rover didn't have such an agreement.

$60x4=$5,000?  Your math is about as good as your economics and your ideology.

>                                                                  Moreover,
> when you needed to install blow-out guards, you had to pay 3 times what
> Michelin guards cost.

If non-Michelin guards are that much more, no wonder 95% of consumers choose
Michelin tires.

> If I am willing to pay several hundred dollars more for a Compaq server
> than a workstation which is all I really need, I can get a Compaq with a
> different operating system. I can buy SmartSuite to run on it but I will
> pay considerably more than the $95 Compaq charges for Office in their
> software bundle. Or I can buy a Compaq workstation and throw out the
> windows and pay $300 for SmartSuite.

Yeah.  Big hairy deal.

-- 
Lars P. Ormberg     ICQ#:8827066
mailto:larso@ualberta.ca
The University of Lars:   http://www.ualberta.ca/~larso/

"The way you're bathed in light, reminds me of that night
God laid me down into your rose garden of trust and I was
swept away with nothin' left to say some helpless fool
yeah I was lost in a swoon of peace you're all I need to
find so when the time is right come to me sweetly, come
to me come to me..love will lead us, alright.  love will
lead us, she will lead us.  can you hear the dolphin's
cry?  see the road rise up to meet us its in the air we
breathe tonight love will lead us, she will lead us"
                            -Live, "The Dolphin's Cry"

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: larso@commodore.                                  11-Dec-99 10:26:11
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 10:16:29
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg)

As I stepped out onto the Stoop, I saw letoured@nospam.net write:
> larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg) said:

> >The alternate definition of force, the one you subscribe to, describes a
> >voluntary exchange!  How on earth can you say with a straight face that
> >when voluntarily signing a contract that it is force, but a definition of
> >force excluding voluntary actions are incorrect?
> 
> If the alternative to signing is to go out of business then there is
> force.

Uh...no.  If a company is unable to sell its products and make a profit,
then the business is responsible for its own demise.  No ghouls or goblins
are responsible...it falls directly onto the hands of the businessman.

> >MS "has done" nothing wrong.  That they are illegal speaks to the flaw in
> >the law, not in the action.
> 
> If this is correct, then you should be capable of identifying and
> explaining how the findings of fact are wrong

#1. Microsoft is not a monopoly
#2. Microsoft's "monopoly powers" are normal business practises that are
    unable to allow it to coerce its customers
#3. Microsoft never harmed consumers
#4. Microsoft isn't a threat to customers just because it "could" increase
    its prices
#5. Blocking Microsoft's ability to compete will not foster greater industry
    competition

> would be unconstitutional.  -- And if so, then according to you we have
> the richest man in the world being railroaded into agreeing with an
> illegal law instead of defending himself. 

He's committed the most unpardonable of sins.  He believes he's guilty for
making his shareholders rich, for making his company successful, for signing
contracts, for selling products.

-- 
Lars P. Ormberg     ICQ#:8827066
mailto:larso@ualberta.ca
The University of Lars:   http://www.ualberta.ca/~larso/

"The way you're bathed in light, reminds me of that night
God laid me down into your rose garden of trust and I was
swept away with nothin' left to say some helpless fool
yeah I was lost in a swoon of peace you're all I need to
find so when the time is right come to me sweetly, come
to me come to me..love will lead us, alright.  love will
lead us, she will lead us.  can you hear the dolphin's
cry?  see the road rise up to meet us its in the air we
breathe tonight love will lead us, she will lead us"
                            -Live, "The Dolphin's Cry"

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: letoured@nospam.net                               10-Dec-99 20:40:10
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 10:16:29
Subj: Re: Jury scheduled to hear Caldera vs. Microsoft next January

From: letoured@nospam.net

Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> said:

>Karel Jansens wrote:

Just curious; what alter are you going to kneel at when the DOJ breaks up
MS?


_____________
Ed Letourneau <letoured@sover.net>

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenAntiSpam@hawaii.edu                         11-Dec-99 13:15:04
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 14:33:26
Subj: Re: Amodeo digest, volume 2451524

From: tholenAntiSpam@hawaii.edu

Once again, Marty has pontificated about me allegedly losing an
argument and being an underdog, despite the fact that it was Curtis
who resorted to what could be described as "emulation mode".  Here's
today's digest:

1> It's now time for Dave to give up because he lost another argument.
1> Too bad.  I was kinda pulling for him on this one.  I like rooting
1> for the underdog.

"Is it because of your sex life that you are going through all of this?"

I warned you about going down that path, Marty.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenAntiSpam@hawaii.edu                         11-Dec-99 13:16:07
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 14:33:26
Subj: Re: Haakmat digest, volume 2451524

From: tholenAntiSpam@hawaii.edu

Today's Haakmat digest:

1> Yeah. Isn't he cute? <sigh>

Aren't you sure, Pascal?

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenAntiSpam@hawaii.edu                         11-Dec-99 13:18:09
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 14:33:26
Subj: Re: Bass digest, volume 2451524

From: tholenAntiSpam@hawaii.edu

As I noted yesterday, it's time to resume the Bass digest, having
witnessed him posting multiple responses to a single article,
thereby using bandwidth unnecessarily.  The digest format will
hopefully reduce his unnecessary usage, though it's no guarantee
(see Marty's postings for a recent example).  Here's today's digest:

1> I am saying that a copy of a file that is missing bytes, regardless
1> of how or why, is a corrupt file.

That doesn't explain your use of the word "removed", Curtis.

1> Your haggling over this is just another attempt to avoid your errors.

How ironic, coming from the person who resorted to "emulation mode"
to avoid the issue.

1> "Alteration of the bytes" is not a prerequisite.  Missing bytes is
1> sufficient.

How can you corrupt what isn't there, Curtis?

2> There is no "misinformation" on my part to correct.

Incorrect, Curtis.  Your misinformation involves your misquotation.

2> You are just being arrogant.

Incorrect, Curtis.  I'm just being accurate.

2> You should work on correcting your own misinformation.

What misinformation of mine haven't I corrected, Curtis?

2> You have said "poeple who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones"
2> yourself.

Too bad you haven't followed that advice, Curtis.

2> Classic Tholen: Insisting that his misinterpretation is the only
2> possible correct interpretation.

Where did I say that my interpretation is the only possible correct
interpretation, Curtis?  Just because I'm correcting you doesn't
automatically mean that there are no other possible correct
interpretations.  It simply means that your interpretation is
incorrect.  Another "inept" conclusion of yours.

2> Irrelevant.

On the contrary, the way you originally wrote your sentence is quite
relevant, Curtis.

2> One never writes "separate phrases" when writing a sentence.

One often uses proper punctuation, Curtis.

2> One writes a sentence when writing a sentence.

With proper punctuation, Curtis.

2> Even if there were commas, that would still not qualify as writing
2> "separate phrases."

It would qualify as writing correctly.

3> In my sentence, two consecutive "is"s is correct. In Dave's sentence,
3> it is an error.

Why do you think I wrote [sic] after it, Curtis?

3> Which isn't what I said.

What you said is "corrupt", Curtis.

3> The file as a whole *is* incorrect, which is what I've been saying.

What you've been saying is "corrupt", Curtis.

3> That it doesn't successfully extract the archive proves that it's
3> incorrect.

But not "corrupt".

3> Nope, but it does mean that the *BOOK* is corrupt.

Were any of the words changed, Curtis?

3> You certainly are, Dave.

Yet another example of your pontification.

3> I don't waste my time "explaining" that which is self-evident.

Yet another example of your pontification.

3> This chronology is wrong.

Yet another example of your pontification.  Note the complete absence
of any statement about what is allegedly wrong with the chronology,
nor is any evidence supplied to substantiate the claim that it is
wrong.

3> -- [remainder of Dave's whining denials snipped] --

What alleged "whining", Curtis?

4> Dave, this whole thread has beem a waste of bandwidth,

How ironic, coming from the person wasting even more by responding
to the same article multiple times.

4> thanks to your stubborn refusal to admit error.

On the contrary, the length of this thread is because Timbol tried
to spread FUD about the Java 1.2 functionality that was implemented
in OS/2 Java 1.1.8, and tried to substantiate his claim by referring
to the wrong file.

4> Obviously, Dave cannot stand the taste of his own bitter medicine.

You don't even know how to emulate properly, Curtis.  Notice how I
was able to answer every single question of yours, usually by pointing
to statements that had already been made.  Notice how you don't answer
my similar questions, because you don't have the evidence to support
your pontifications.

4> Damned hypocrite.

Yet another example of your pontification.

4> Dave, you **never** were "interested in a serious discussion of the
4> issues."

Liar.  Such a blatantly obvious lie at that!  Why do you think I
brought up the written statements made by IBM itself, as well as
the contents of the secma.zip file, to prove that Java 1.2 functionality
has indeed been implemented in OS/2 Java 1.1.8?

4> You are only interested in dodging your errors.

Liar.  Such a blatantly obvious lie at that!  There was no error of
mine to dodge when I countered Timbol's "bullshit" response to Joseph.

4> Claim otherwise and you are a liar as well as a hypocrite.

Liar.  Such a blatantly obvious lie at that!  I just finished claiming
otherwise and proving that the claim is justified, Curtis, thus you
cannot conclude that I am "a liar as well as a hypocrite".  Yet another
"inept" conclusion of yours.

4> Which is another admission of defeat on Dave's part.

Wrong again, Curtis.  It's an admission that you have wasted bandwidth
by posting multiple responses to the same article, and my attempt to
save bandwidth by consolidating your multiple responses into a single
digest.  It's also an admission that you aren't interested in a serious
discussion, as evidenced by your use of "emulation mode".

By the way, Curtis, did you notice how Lucien finally took the two
simple tests?  (What took him so long?)  He couldn't find anything
wrong with the tests themselves.  In each test, one sentence was
ambiguous with regard to the question asked and the other was not
ambiguous.  He admitted that it would be illogical to try and counter
the claim of unambiguity in the sentences identified as being
unambiguous.  So instead he tried to claim that the tests were
irrelevant, and erroneously tried to draw a connection between the
actual cases and the ambiguous versions of the sentences.  He then
went on to contradict himself in the span of a single sentence
regarding the ambiguity or lack thereof in a sentence.  I'm waiting
for you to jump in and call Lucien "inept".

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           11-Dec-99 09:08:01
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 14:33:26
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <82t7pu$js0$2@burn.ab.videon.ca>, on 12/11/99 at 10:07 AM,
   larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg) said:

> > Now also let us suppose that you wanted to buy a Jeep for a trek through
> > the Sahara Desert and needed specialized low pressure tires which Michelin
> > did not make. You would have two choices, pay $300 for tires for which you
> > had no possible use or buy a Range Rover for about $5,000 more than the
> > comparable Jeep since Range Rover didn't have such an agreement.

> $60x4=$5,000?  Your math is about as good as your economics and your
> ideology.

Your total idiocy is showing. A Range Rover costs at least $4800 more than
a comparable Jeep product. If you bothered to have Mommy explain all of
the above paragraph I wrote, you might comprehend what I wrote.


> >                                                                  Moreover,
> > when you needed to install blow-out guards, you had to pay 3 times what
> > Michelin guards cost.

> If non-Michelin guards are that much more, no wonder 95% of consumers
> choose Michelin tires.

You are a total idiot. For Michelin read MS. For blow-out guards read
software.

> > If I am willing to pay several hundred dollars more for a Compaq server
> > than a workstation which is all I really need, I can get a Compaq with a
> > different operating system. I can buy SmartSuite to run on it but I will
> > pay considerably more than the $95 Compaq charges for Office in their
> > software bundle. Or I can buy a Compaq workstation and throw out the
> > windows and pay $300 for SmartSuite.

> Yeah.  Big hairy deal.

Well, it is to the ten million or so Warp users around the world.

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           11-Dec-99 09:11:17
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 14:33:26
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <82t768$js0$1@burn.ab.videon.ca>, on 12/11/99 at 09:57 AM,
   larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg) said:


> > > How can you claim to send a "snail mail" to my University, when you
> > > don't know where it is?  When you get your mail back Return to Sender,
> > > don't blame me.
> > 
> > I seriously doubt that mail addressed 
> > 
> > Roderick Fraser, President
> > President's Office  Univ Hall 3-1
> > University of Alberta
> > 114 Street - 89 Avenue
> > Edmonton, Alberta  T6G 2M7
> > Canada
> > 
> > will be returned as undeliverable.

> No, but the line reading "that Lars guy who works for you in Calgary"
> will be the source of many hours of hilarity.

I discussed Larso who has a website on their server and claims to be a
student there.



--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------

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From: pridgen@texas.net                                 11-Dec-99 08:21:04
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 14:33:26
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: William Pridgen <pridgen@texas.net>

On Fri, 10 Dec 1999 16:37:33 -0800, josco <josco@sea.monterey.edu>
wrote:

>A gun is measureable.  Monopoly power is measurable.  It does exist,
>illegal or not. It does exist and can be used to drive companies out of
>business.  Guns can shoot and monopoly power exists.  It can be argued
>using monopoly power is legal but the power has to be recognized.  If you
>deny it does exist then things that can be measured in the market are
>inconsistent with your advocacy and your arguments are based on
>falsehoods. I cannot deny that my gun exists or that it does shoot as a
>way to defend my right to own a gun.

Our legislators make the laws and the courts interpret them.  They
define "monopoly" in relative terms.  Economists, at least those of
the so-called "Austrian school," tend to define it differently.  For
good or ill, it's the legal definition that we have to go by.

The economists' definition is attractive because it is absolute and
objective.  The government, perhaps, likes the other definition
because it allows the courts room to maneuver, and of course that sort
of definition can be refined to suit the circumstances.  (It also
gives the issue an air of scientific precision by introducing per
cents.)

As much as I personally prefer the "Austrian" definition, I must admit
that it is irrelevant in this case, since it is not the one the court
is using.  We probably should get our attention away from definitions
anyway.  The philosopher Karl Popper showed, at least to my
satisfaction, that definitions really do not convey information about
the real world, and should be treated merely as convenient shorthand
for longer expressions.

Since it is the lawmakers and the courts who are laying down the
conditions under which we apply the shorthand expression "monopoly,"
we are stuck with their definition, like it or not.  I'm caught
between a rock and a hard place, since I have little love for either
Microsoft or the sort of government that has taken them to court.
--
Bill Pridgen
--
pridgen@texas.net

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: jws@jws.ultranet.com                              11-Dec-99 09:06:17
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 14:33:26
Subj: Re: Jury scheduled to hear Caldera vs. Microsoft next January

From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>

Christopher Smith <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote in message
news:82rd7l$anr$1@news1.mpx.com.au...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote in message
> news:82rcje$144$1@autumn.news.rcn.net...
> > Christopher Smith <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote in message
> > news:82r3ur$b0e$1@news1.mpx.com.au...
> > ...
> > > In any case, I don't believe a word of it.  I've *never* seen IE
> > > use the procedure you describe.
> >
> > Christopher, I happened to notice he said this was on Novell.
> > Perhaps this is a Novell-specific problem?
>
> Shouldn't matter to what's being done.....

I'm only suggesting it could be a problem with the Netware redirector, not
with Microsoft code.

Thanks,
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com <mailto:jws@jws.ultranet.com>
[ Any opinions expressed are not those of my employer ]



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From: cdelanoy@ualberta.ca                              11-Dec-99 16:05:19
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 14:33:26
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Chris J Delanoy <cdelanoy@ualberta.ca>

 Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com> wrote:

> You and a handful of others here are the only irrational beings
> here.

Irrationality is the act of saying - and believing - that companies
can simultaneously charge prices that are above AND below market
prices.  Irrationality is the act of saying - and believing - that
you are being forced against your will to use a product, while at
the same time you declare at the bottom of every message you post
that you do NOT use that product.

Your hocus-pocus economics are what stands in diametric opposition
to reality, reason, and logic.

> And as for moral reprehensiblity, the only one exhibiting such
> is you,

You only think so because you hold self-sacrifice, force, and
intellectual suicide as moral virtues.

The morality of life and of happiness (my OWN life and happiness)
that I live by is based on my recognition that reality exist as
an objective absolute - and that those of you who deny reality
and who defy logic are the ones who are anti-life.  The fact that
you would have us burn an achiever like Bill Gates on a stake is th
grim demonstration and only possible result of your creed.

Chris J Delanoy


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net                            11-Dec-99 16:02:24
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 14:33:26
Subj: Re: Jury scheduled to hear Caldera vs. Microsoft next January

From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens)

On Fri, 10 Dec 1999 23:10:33, Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> wrote:

> Karel Jansens wrote:
> > 
> > But even if you were the crimsomest redneck on the planet, it would
> > have made no difference for the facts of the case.
> 
> Unless he was a Windows advocate, right Karel?

If he had been a Windows advocate, claiming he had removed OS/2 from 
his client's PCs and replaced it with Windows 9x, to give his client 
better DOS support for his legacy apps, I think I might have 
confronted him with the issue.

I'd like to think I would be civil enough to keep personal attacks out
of a technical issue, but who knows? I don't remember having done it 
yet (I have been "personal" on occasion, yes, but - as I hope - only 
after previously having been attacked on personal grounds, and I try 
to limit it: it's not that easy to continuously come up with "funny" 
insults (we're still here for entertainment purposes, right?), 
especially without any help from the other party).

Karel Jansens
jansens_at_attglobal_dot_net
=======================================================
"The method employed I would gladly explain,
While I have it so clear in my head,
If I had but the time and you had but the brain -
But much yet remains to be said."

the Hunting of the Snark (Lewis Carroll)
=======================================================

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From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net                            11-Dec-99 16:02:25
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 14:33:26
Subj: Re: Jury scheduled to hear Caldera vs. Microsoft next January

From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens)

On Fri, 10 Dec 1999 23:39:02, Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> wrote:

> Karel Jansens wrote:
> > 
> > On Fri, 10 Dec 1999 02:07:42, Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > Karel Jansens wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, 9 Dec 1999 21:59:22, Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Karel Jansens wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, 9 Dec 1999 02:13:15, Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Karel Jansens wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bob says he doesn't (and I know similar firms who indeed
don't). On
> > > > > > > > what basis do you doubt him?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > How's this for starters:
> > > > > > > "Since you are a Canuck, your opinoin is worth less than
garbage."
> > > > > > > "Typical conduct of an Arab terrorist. You can't win a rational
argument so
> > > > > > >  you attempt to blow others up."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Oookayyy...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Actually, I was referring to the data of the case provided, so I
could
> > > > > > have a chance to reply.
> > > > >
> > > > > That didn't stop you from replying, Karel.
> > > > >
> > > > ????
> > >
> > > You still replied, in spite of your alleged lack of "a chance".  Reading
> > > comprehension problems?
> > >
> > Ah. I see now. Semantics.
> 
> Yours perhaps, if you are attempting to pursue this.  The point of fact is
that
> you replied in spite of the alleged lack of "referring to the data of the
> case".
> 
Look, if you're going to play that game, I'm out. I can't say why I 
can't reply without posting *something*. I was trying to be (somewhat)
polite by letting you know I had read your post, but didn't want to 
react, because I had been reacting only to the facts of the case 
sofar. This is an issue to you, but not to me. *PLONK*, IIRC, would be
the correct reaction for me?

> > > > > > Now, all I can say is: "Indeed. Well... yes".
> > > > >
> > > > > Glad you agree that those statements are indeed a basis on which he
may
> > > > > be doubted.
> > > >
> > > > Just as long as you add: "... for me" to that sentence.
> > >
> > > On the contrary, the above quoted statements are indeed a valid basis on 
which
> > > *anyone* may doubt Bob, especially in light of his lack of retraction. 
Your
> > > lack of courage to take such a stand is typical, however.
> > 
> > He didn't retract, he explained.
> 
> I can give someone a black-eye and then explain that I thought there was a
gnat
> on their eyelid.  Is this an acceptable thing to do?
> 
Funny thing: about the same happened to me once. It was a *huge* wasp 
and not my eye, and I was pretty angry until I saw the size of the 
insect.

It all depends whether there was a gnat or just the intention to punch
someone's lights out.

> > And no matter how one interprets those remarks, they have absolutely no
> > relevance to his credibility re the facts of the case presented.
> 
> They have relevance to his credibility as a whole, which casts doubt on his
> credibility on specific issues.
> 
You've been playing silly games with Tholen, Bennett and Haakmat 
for... How long is it now? This would do what to your credibility?

> > They could make him despicable, yes, but not incredible.
> 
> There's nothing incredible about Bob.  He's quite ordinary, unfortunately.
> 
Possible language problem on my part? I meant incredible as "having no
credibility". This was not the right word?

> > If you'd like to start a new thread, "Bob Germer is a redneck racist" or
> > suchlike, I'd gladly give my opinions and contribute to it.
> 
> Dubious.
> 
You don't *know* that. So why are you saying this?

> > However, to the issues I have been reacting to, this is of no
significance.
> 
> Incorrect.
> 
> > So what courage would I need then?
> 
> The courage to be objective and not accept someone's word on blind faith,
> especially someone who has shown that their own objectivity and grasp of
truth
> and reality is highly questionable.  Perhaps you can redirect the courage
you
> summoned to defend Bob over to this new area.
> 
Objectivity works both ways, Marty. You say: "I don't see many reasons
to believe Bob". I say: "I don't see many reasons not to believe Bob".

And in any case, it is quite irrelevant to my argumentation whether 
Bob has been describing a real case or just made it up. I have argued 
that the described cause of events is plausible, that there are no 
significant inconsistencies which would make it improbable to have 
happened.

> > To you I would have to say:
> 
> So why not just say it?
> 
Because that would be stupid!
I have argued that the events are logical, and then I would have to 
conclude: "No, this cannot be right, because the man who described the
events doesn't have a nice personality". I may do many things to 
please other people, but I'm not prepared to drop logic to make you 
happy.

> > "Okay, Bob Germer did present a credible explanation for his installation 
> > of Warp on his client's pc's, but because he said this and that I choose
> > not to believe him." That's consequent behaviour then?
> 
> You're presupposing that Bob did present a credible explanation for his
> installation of Warp on his client's PCs.
> 
Yes, he did.

> "Bob says he doesn't (and I know similar firms who indeed don't). On what
basis
> do you doubt him?"
> 
> Sorry, but we don't all share your blind faith in Bob, especially after
reading
> his postings.
> 
> Due to lack of hard facts at my disposal regarding Bob's clients, and due to
> the presence of such negative, biased commentary from Bob himself I am left
to
> take Bob's statements with a pillar of salt at best.  He has done nothing to
> convince me of his credibility (which is not particularly his fault) and
quite
> a bit to refute it (which most certainly is his fault).

See above. Even if he lied his teeth out, the story still has an 
internal logic, and that's all that matters.

After all, not a single one of you is more than letters on a monitor 
(with the exceptions of Dave Tholen, Esther Schindler and Jim Stuyck, 
of whom I've seen photographs - and even then...). The entire 
"credibility" issue is a laugh; do you really think any of you has a 
real world credibility rating higher than 0 to me? The only thing I 
can judge is internal consistency of postings on UseNet or comparison 
with facts that I know personally, and that's all I'm prepared to rate
on. I don't expect anything more from the rest of you either.

Karel Jansens
jansens_at_attglobal_dot_net
=======================================================
"The method employed I would gladly explain,
While I have it so clear in my head,
If I had but the time and you had but the brain -
But much yet remains to be said."

the Hunting of the Snark (Lewis Carroll)
=======================================================

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: hyperon@bhil.com                                  11-Dec-99 10:31:06
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 14:33:26
Subj: Re: Purchasing OS/2

From: Red Dog <hyperon@bhil.com>

Damn Bob, have a drink.

Bob Germer wrote:

> On <MPG.12bba62bb2e3af03989682@news-server.mgfairfax.rr.com>, on 12/11/99
> at 04:49 AM,
>    David H. McCoy <fake@forgitaboutit.com> said:
>
> > But Kris, let's be realistic. Most of us here are concerned with at home
> > use  and at home, Win2k just isn't that bad.  The thing is adding great
> > PnP, USB,  DVD, DirectX 7.0, a better interface, a slew of improvements
> > to decrease  rebooting needs, surely all of this comes at the increase
> > of more resources.
>
> > More features equals more resources.
>
> Anything that Windows 2K can do, Warp can do as well albeit with different
> application software. Windows 98 requires more resources than Warp 4.
> Without third party software, W2K cannot do voice typing which Warp 4 can
> do and does here constantly. Win2K according to the Wall Street Journal
> article one day last week crashed far more frequently than Win98 or NT
> 4.0. They were testing the limited release version, BTW. Warp doesn't
> crash when properly installed and maintained. My Domino Server ran for 412
> days until a power failure of 8 hours duration during a hurricane this
> Fall.
>
> So, I can do FAR more simultaneously with a much more stable OS than
> anything MS has ever produced. I have PnP, USB, DVD, and DirectX although
> I don't know or care what level of DirectX since I don't play games or
> watch movies on my WORKstation.
>
> And anyone who prefers the insane, ugly, Windows interface to Presentation
> Manager is either a moron or a paid whore for MS like you.
>
> --
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
> Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
> Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
> MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
> Aut Pax Aut Bellum
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: innoval@ibm.net                                   11-Dec-99 16:35:15
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 14:33:26
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: innoval@ibm.net

In article <zterrarrkvfarg.fmk8te0.pminews@news.exis.net>,
  "Michael K Greene" <mgreene@hotbot.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Dec 1999 17:32:00 -0800, Tim Martin wrote:
> Any other company would get a "great!!!", but let's look at who you
> are talking about - Innoval????

Okay. Let's get some facts straight before this goes to far off topic.

AFST is actually offering ISP800 to OS/2 users, not InnoVal. Read the
details and the FAQ at isp800.com/os2/. I, Dan Porter, sought and
engineered the deal for OS/2 users. Anyone else (any supporter and user
of OS/2 like myself) could have done it just as easily. InnoVal may have
withdrawn from the OS/2 software market, but InnoVal still has OS/2
users and supporters, and the company does recognize that OS/2 users
WERE important to us and ARE important to us.

I, personally, and InnoVal, have a vested interest in AFST. When AFST
closes a big multi-user deal (and they have closed some very big deals)
I and InnoVal earn something for our efforts. I would be surprised if
OS/2 users as a group (oh, I wish it could be so) will be a big enough
deal to earn us anything -- certainly not at the prices being offered to
OS/2 users. It was just something that I wanted to do.

I've seen what AFST brings to the table with 65 tech support people (all
trained unfortunately in Windows stuff), 800 re-routed access, high
bandwidth, high capacity email, etc. It's a good deal, even if you don't
like InnoVal. All InnoVal did was try to bring you a good price when
AFST launches public consumer service under the ISP800 brand.

I was the one who pulled the plug on InnoVal's direct involvement with
OS/2 software. It was a financial thing that investors get concerned
about. Add to that, that as a company, we were not good enough with
support in the consumer marketplace. I thought we could be, but I was
mistaken. The market wasn't there anymore. So blame me. Not InnoVal.

InnoVal, BTW, is lobbying for OS/2 solutions, support, etc. with AFST
and its business partners and vendors. We are not doing so because we
are emotionally attached to OS/2 but because, in some areas, it makes
good business sense.

ISP800 makes good business sense. I feel good that we (all of us who
want to be a part of this) are, in a small way, involving two new
vendors (AFST and National Dialup) in the OS/2 world.

Dan Porter, President
InnoVal Systems Solutions, Inc.




Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: fake@forgitaboutit.com                            11-Dec-99 17:18:03
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 16:33:28
Subj: Re: OS/2 stable and faster [was Re: While (slow)s/2 sucks, it's remarka

From: David H. McCoy <fake@forgitaboutit.com>

In article <4e9vR6R51Xid-pn2-NJdKd4d0Iygd@pool1-14.laf.cioe.com>, 
lwriemen@wcic.cioe.com says...
>> > When you start talking 
>> > about Win98 or NT 4(better comparison), then OS/2 has a staggering lead
>> > in speed.
>> 
>> In what subjects?
>> 
>Any NT 4 (haven't used 3.51) to OS/2 comparisons would involve similar 
>hardware configurations.  Let's face it; NT requires more RAM and 
>processor speed than OS/2.
>

I don't agree. I used NT 4 and OS/2 Warp 4 on the exact same machine running 
very similar software. I saw nothing when I installed NT 4 to suggest that it 
ran slower than OS/2.



-- 
---------------------------------------
David H. McCoy
dmccoy@EXTRACT_THIS_mnsinc.com
---------------------------------------

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: sbritton@cadvision.com                            11-Dec-99 10:23:29
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 16:33:28
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com>

Don Wagner wrote:
>
> Cutler Hammer RULES!!!!!! :)

Crappy Hammer?  It's almost as bad as Telemickeymouse.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
What have YOU done to bust a union today?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Work better: Work union-free.

Steven C. Britton
Calgary

www.cadvision.com/sbritton



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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: sbritton@cadvision.com                            11-Dec-99 10:25:25
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 16:33:28
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com>

Bob Germer wrote:
>
> > No, but the line reading "that Lars guy who works for you in Calgary"
> > will be the source of many hours of hilarity.
>
> I discussed Larso who has a website on their server and claims to be a
> student there.

Only a fascist would try to harm another because they have a different
opinion.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
What have YOU done to bust a union today?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Work better: Work union-free.

Steven C. Britton
Calgary

www.cadvision.com/sbritton



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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: sbritton@cadvision.com                            11-Dec-99 10:27:05
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 16:33:28
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com>

Bob Germer wrote:
>
> > The point I was making was that A-B does exactly the same thing with
> > their distributor that Microsoft does with theirs.  The only difference
> > is that MS signs contracts with as many distributors as possible, A-B
> > signs with one.
>
> > Both are perfectly ethical practices.
>
> No they are not. The first is. The second is not when a company has a
> monopoly position as does MS in its markets.

If people wish to enter into exclusive contracts with a certain supplier
(because that supplier makes it favorable for them to do so) it is perfectly
ethical.

If 100% of automation distributors want to sell Allen Bradley, there is
nothing morally wrong with it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
What have YOU done to bust a union today?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Work better: Work union-free.

Steven C. Britton
Calgary

www.cadvision.com/sbritton



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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: jglatt@spamgone-borg.com                          11-Dec-99 17:35:13
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 16:33:28
Subj: Re: Jury scheduled to hear Caldera vs. Microsoft next January

From: jglatt@spamgone-borg.com (Jeff Glatt)

>>>Karel Jansens 
>>>If you'd like to start a new thread, "Bob Germer is a redneck racist" or
>>>suchlike, I'd gladly give my opinions and contribute to it.

>> Dubious.
 
>You don't *know* that. So why are you saying this?

Because he doubts your word based upon your history here. You simply
have no credibility whatsoever as a person who is capable of being the
least bit logically impartial, and in fact, you admit to being
deliberately biased due merely to a boner for a particular pet
product.

I'd say that Marty has good case to be skeptical of anything you say.
Other people have expressed a similiar opinion, and I agree with them.

>Objectivity works both ways, Marty. You say: "I don't see many reasons
>to believe Bob". I say: "I don't see many reasons not to believe Bob".

Of course you don't see many reasons not to believe Bob. That's
because, in your blind love affair with your pet product, you
willingly overlook the factual errors in Boob's stories that numerous
other people, spanning a wide demographic of people, are pointing out,
plus the fact that Boob's anecdotes always end up being perpetually
embellished with new characters and "facts" that suddenly appear in a
futile attempt to try to paper over the many inconsistencies and
implausibilities in his stories.

All you see is a large banner unfurling over his head reading "OS/2
Uber Alles", and while you're fervently saluting it, everything else
has gone beyond your notice.

>it is quite irrelevant to my argumentation whether  Bob has been
>describing a real case or just made it up. I have argued 
>that the described cause of events is plausible

Oh, I see. Did I mention that I happen to know someone who got a
really bad paper cut opening the CDROM of OS/2, and it got an
infection and he died? OS/2 kills people. 

Of course, you have to believe it since there *have* been known cases
where people get infections from cuts and die. The cause of events is
plausible. It doesn't matter if I'm describing a real case or just
made it up.

>that there are no 
>significant inconsistencies which would make it improbable to have 
>happened.

...that *YOU* can see. Fortunately, numerous other people in this
thread don't possess the same tunnel vision from a niche product that
you do, and have otherwise reported factual errors with Boob's
"anecdotes". This would include a much wider demographic of people
than who have naively accepted his "story" without question (ie,
basically, just an OS/2 zealot -- you).

>> > To you I would have to say:
 
>> So why not just say it?
 
>Because that would be stupid!

It never bothered you to post lots of other stupid things to this
newsgroup before, such as running interference for Ian "The Moron"
Tholen. Why now?

>I'm not prepared to drop logic to make you happy.

You're also not prepared to deal with the factual errors in Boob's
stories, as pointed out by numerous people. You'd rather spin
"possible interpretations" to explain away inconsistencies with even
more bogus conjecture than is already present in Boob's tall tales.
And you do this simply because he's a fellow OS/2 zealot, in the same
way that you have run interference for Tholen.

You mislabel your bogus conjecture, based upon no given facts
whatsoever, as "logic". I'm not surprised to see such behavior from a
Tholen fan.


>> You're presupposing that Bob did present a credible explanation for his
>> installation of Warp on his client's PCs.
 
>Yes, he did.

That's because you're obviously unqualified to know about the
installation of IE, and that's why you're totally ignorant of those
factual errors in his "story" as reported by numerous people here.
That you're ignorant is not your fault though. You just are.

On the other hand, your inept attempt to run interference for Boob,
simply due to your bias over brand loyalty, in the face of the factual
errors in his "story" and his lack of credibility, underscores how
naive you are. I've said it before and I'll say it again: People think
you're naive and clueless because of the things that you write in your
posts.

>Even if he lied his teeth out, the story still has an 
>internal logic, and that's all that matters.

OS/2 kills people. It killed that guy who got a paper cut from it.

That's all that matters, so that's all people need to know about OS/2.

>The only thing I 
>can judge is internal consistency of postings on UseNet or comparison 
>with facts that I know personally

And based upon your performance of such here, there is reason for
people to dismiss you as naive and clueless. It's a deserved judgment
against you.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: OS2Guy@WarpCity.com                               11-Dec-99 09:51:05
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 16:33:28
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com>

williamd wrote:

> This sounds *great*; thanks for posting the info! Here's hoping they
> choose an appropriate domain name- like os2online or something!!
>
> Bill
> __
> williamd1@attglobal.net

Thanks Bill.  InnoVal actually engineered the low-cost
deal for OS/2 users in partnership with AFST (Advanced
Family Safe Technologies, Inc) and it is a great deal for
OS/2 users.

Get in now and it is only $12 a month for an entire year
with  56k connections, 100% dialup access either locally
or through an 800 number (and that includes Hawaii, Alaska
and Puerto Rico), 24 hours a day, 7 days a week access.
Go to any other vendor and ask for a discount because
you use OS/2 and they ignore you.  Sign up with them
and any OS/2 support you need is usually a joke of the
biggest kind.

InnoVal and AFST are doing this because they believe
OS/2 users are a better equipped and a more knowledgeable
group of Internet users.  We all know the most significant
costs for a nationwide ISP are marketing and technical
support.  OS/2 users are an active easier-to-reach online
community, we understand quickly, and we readily share
the knowledge with each other through various web sites
newsgroups, and other public forums.

Again, InnoVal is to be applauded for stepping forward
to once again, bring a service or product to the OS/2
community that is being ignored by other OS/2 vendors
or former OS/2 vendors.  JSM (now PolarBar) is still - to
this day - the best Java Emailer on the market and it is
being updated with new features and other good things
by the Paul vanKeep group of Java programmers.  Without
InnoVal JSM and PolarBar would be dead in the water.

OS/2 users need to support OS/2 users, vendors and
other commercial enterprises that cater to OS/2.  For
an OS/2 user to step forward in the public realm and
whine their heads off at such entrepreneurial leadership
is ridiculous.  More importantly, it is the best way to kill
off other OS/2 incentives.

Take advantage of the offer extended by and for OS/2
users by Innoval and AFST by signing up as a preferred
OS/2 user with their new ISP for OS/2 users.

Tim Martin
The OS/2 Guy
Warp City (http://warpcity.com)



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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: fake@forgitaboutit.com                            11-Dec-99 17:14:03
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 16:33:28
Subj: Re: Purchasing OS/2

From: David H. McCoy <fake@forgitaboutit.com>

In article <w1l44.6083$qC1.418057@typhoon1.rdc-detw.rr.com>, 
kwilas@stardock.com says...
>In article <MPG.12bba62bb2e3af03989682@news-server.mgfairfax.rr.com>, David
H. McCoy <fake@forgitaboutit.com> wrote:
>>But Kris, let's be realistic. Most of us here are concerned with at home use 

>>and at home, Win2k just isn't that bad.  The thing is adding great PnP, USB, 

>>DVD, DirectX 7.0, a better interface, a slew of improvements to decrease 
>>rebooting needs, surely all of this comes at the increase of more resources.
>>More features equals more resources.
>
>Moving away from the Tim portion of this, yes. I use it myself
>and have also tried to use it at home. :) Better than NT4 in most
>ways (which is itself worlds beyond 9x on almost everything
>except legacy/game support). 
>
>>>Especially in more vertical oriented situations, it's dependence
>>>on a few tools (and how/how well they run/how easy to deploy)
>>>that matters. 
>>>In any event, I was serious about the question to Tim. 
>>My statement was serious.
>
>My apologies, but what "most of us here" are concerned with isn't
>what interests me here. The question is not the suitabilitiy of
>Win2k for home use (and its increased resource requirements
>as a result of that and other more corporate-oriented features). 

Okay.

>Tim's advanced the statement that "Windows2000 still does not
>equal OS/2 Warp 4 in power and stability and more". One doesn't
>have to be confined to the home marketplace in support of that
>as a valid statement. 

Fair enough. For the record, I don't agree with that assertion and would be 
interested reading Tim's attempt to back it up.

>But, insofar as the home marketplace, the majority of those sales
>since the hardware requirements shifted have overwhelmingly favored
>Windows over OS/2 in terms of features (power) and "more". ;)

Okay.

>Kris
>
>
>
>
>Kris
>

-- 
---------------------------------------
David H. McCoy
dmccoy@EXTRACT_THIS_mnsinc.com
---------------------------------------

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: OS2Guy@WarpCity.com                               11-Dec-99 10:06:15
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 16:33:28
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com>

hunters@sapphire.indstate.edu wrote:

> In article <3851A98F.459420AF@WarpCity.com>,
>   OS2Guy@WarpCity.com wrote:
>
> > Here's some hot news for all you NON-Warp City Members:
>
> Look, don't bother doing us any "favors"...

Unless it feeds your OS/2 pocket directly, right Steve?
You know like where to find that elusive OS/2 fix or
OS/2 great deal?

If I provide information or news you want then you can't
applaud me enough but if it isn't something to you like
to hear then you want to kill the messenger.

It is too bad you miss all the other good news and
information Warp City offers its members.

Tim Martin
The OS/2 Guy
Warp City (http://warpcity.com)


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: lucien@metrowerks.com                             11-Dec-99 17:55:15
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 16:33:29
Subj: Re: Navigator 4.7 is available!! OS/2 is behind again!!

From: lucien@metrowerks.com

In article <82sfaq$30s$1@news.hawaii.edu>,
  tholenAntiSpam@hawaii.edu wrote:
> Lucien writes:
> > ] #1:  It rained today.
> > ]
> > ] #2:  It rained today until sunset.
> > ]
> > ] The question:  did it rain all of the day or only some of the day?
> > ]
> > ] The word "rained", by itself, doesn't indicate duration, therefore
> >
> > It is more precise to state that duration is not indicated in this
> > sentence.
>
> Irrelevant, Lucien.

Wrong. Your analysis is confused and requires the clarification I
provided.

> > ] one cannot determine an unambiguous answer to the question in the
> > ] absence of other information.
> >
> > Absolutely correct.
>
> With regard to sentence #1, Lucien,

Right.

> not with regard to sentence #2.

Right.

> The JDK sentence corresponds to sentence #2.

Wrong.

> Try to prove otherwise,
> if you think you can.

Here is the JDK sentence

(In article <7u4cj4$7eb$1@news.hawaii.edu>,
  tholenAntiSpam@ifa.hawaii.edu wrote:)

[...]

(Joseph C. made this statement)

1) "OS/2 Java 1.1.8 implements Java 1.2 functionality. Bummer, bummer"

Here is Dave Tholen's response to Mike Timbol in that article:

2) "Irrelevant, given that Joseph did not say that OS/2 Java 1.1.8
implements ALL of Java 1.2 functionality.  It does implement SOME
of it, however."

[...]

Here is Dave's later statement concerning 'implements' (the verb in the
JDK sentence):

3) "The word 'implements' does allow for either 'some' or
'all' functionality, in the absence of any other
information."

Note the absence of any quantifiers in the JDK sentence (#1).

Note Dave's auxiliary statement (#2), crucially affirming and
clarifying an ambiguity WRT quantification in that sentence.

Note Dave's other statement (#3), further refining the predication
of 'implements' WRT quantification such that agreement is reached with
my thesis statement (this also ties statement #3 to the JDK sentence).

Clearly, in a fashion congruent with the "rained" and "costly mistakes"
situations, the JDK sentence is ambiguous WRT quantification, in the
absence of other sentential information - this analysis enjoys the
evidentiary support of Dave's own statements.

Here is my thesis:

The "costly mistakes" and "implements functionality" situations are
ambiguous WRT quantification in the absence of peri-verbal information.

Note the agreement between my thesis and Dave's statements.

Lucien S.


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: float@incandescent.firedrake.org                  11-Dec-99 18:18:05
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 16:33:29
Subj: Re: Jury scheduled to hear Caldera vs. Microsoft next January

From: float@incandescent.firedrake.org (void)

In article <3851fc76$7$obot$mr2ice@news.pics.com>, Bob Germer wrote:
>On <J3a44.47089$zd.527112@news1.alsv1.occa.home.com>, on 12/10/99 at 04:42
>PM,
>   "Brent Davies" <brentdaviesNOSPAM@home.com> said:
>
>> I second that.  I've installed IE5 on every system in my network using
>> "Client Software" CD from TechNet.  I launch setup and let it copy
>> files.  When it wants a reboot, I say yes, then take the CD out of the
>> drive and go to the next system.  There most definitely is some post-
>> reboot configuration running in the background, but it does NOT require
>> the installation path to be present.  I know this because I am off at
>> another workstation with my CD running setup while the post-
>> reboot config is taking place on the last workstation, without the CD in
>> the drive.  It never asks for the CD again.
>
>Well, this is absolutely immaterial. I am using the CD provided by MS not
>whatever you are using. Typical of a MS whore trying to paint shit white.

TechNet is MS.  Let me go get my crowbar, your foot can't be comfortable
there.

-- 
 Ben

[X] YES! I'm a brain-damaged lemur on crack, and I'd like to
    order your software package for $459.95!

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu                11-Dec-99 12:45:18
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 16:33:29
Subj: Re: Bass digest, volume 2451524

From: tholenbot <tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu>

In article <82tiuq$giv$3@news.hawaii.edu>, tholenAntiSpam@hawaii.edu 
wrote:

> As I noted yesterday, it's time to resume the Bass digest, having
> witnessed him posting multiple responses to a single article,
> thereby using bandwidth unnecessarily. 

What you noticed yesterday is irrelevant.  And how ironic, coming from 
someone who wastes bandwidth.

> How ironic, coming from the person who resorted to "emulation mode"
> to avoid the issue.

How ironic, coming from someone whose posts often "emulate" Eliza to 
avoid issues.

> What alleged "whining", Curtis?

Ask your mentor, grasshopper.

> Yet another example of your pontification.

Prove it, if you think you can.
 
> Liar.  Such a blatantly obvious lie at that!  Why do you think I
> brought up the written statements made by IBM itself, as well as
> the contents of the secma.zip file, to prove that Java 1.2 functionality
> has indeed been implemented in OS/2 Java 1.1.8?

Balderdash, Dave.

-- 
""I do not 'approve' phrases.-Dave Tholen"
- Eric Bennett"
-Marty Amodeo

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: OS2Guy@WarpCity.com                               11-Dec-99 10:01:13
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 16:33:29
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com>

Bob Eager wrote:

> On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 07:45:35, andrew@netneurotic.de (Andrew J. Brehm)
> wrote:
>
> > Why? What's wrong with Innoval?
>
> This is the company that quietly dropped support for, first, their
> newsreader, then (not so quietly) BOTH their OS/2 mail clients.
> Leaving loyal users out in the cold.
>

Leaving loyal users out in the cold?  Lessee - did they withdraw
PostRoad Mailer from you the way the developer of CUSeeme/2
did?  Did they lie to you to get you to buy their product then run
off into the night the way SPG did?

No InnoVal did not.  To this day they provide free distribution of
the Post Road Mailer (try that with CUSeeMe/2) and have encouraged
others to continue development of the J Street Mailer. Which is exactly
what is happening.  Paul vanKeep and his band of merry OS/2 Java
developers have continued development of the former JSM (now
PolarBar) Java emailer and will continue to do so.  Had InnoVal
pulled that product and forbid anyone from touching it there would
be no PolarBar or further development today.

InnoVal is to be applauded for their continued devotion to
OS/2, the OS/2 user and the OS/2 community at large.

You want to kill off OS/2?  Take a look at what you are
personally doing to help do that today.

Tim Martin
The OS/2 Guy
Warp City (http://warpcity.com)



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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: cndbass@yahoo.com                                 11-Dec-99 18:20:02
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 16:33:29
Subj: Re: Bass digest, volume 2451524

From: Curtis Bass <cndbass@yahoo.com>


tholenAntiSpam@hawaii.edu wrote:

 . . . a lot of nonsense, including continued whining over alleged
punctuation errors and my use of certain words.

Dave claims his mission to be "countering misinformation."  All he's
really doing is nitpicking over punctuation, word choice, phrasing,
while blithely ignoring his own misinformation.

As Dave has displayed spelling and puntuation errors, this indicates
another level of his hypocrisy.

-- snip --


Curtis

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: isaacl@sonics.ece.ubc.ca                          11-Dec-99 19:22:11
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 19:49:08
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: isaacl@sonics.ece.ubc.ca (e-frog)

Bob Eager (rde@tavi.co.uk) wrote:
: On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 07:45:35, andrew@netneurotic.de (Andrew J. Brehm) 
: wrote:

: > Why? What's wrong with Innoval?

: This is the company that quietly dropped support for, first, their 
: newsreader, then (not so quietly) BOTH their OS/2 mail clients. 
: Leaving loyal users out in the cold.

I would disagree with this point of view.
I mean first, when they decided to go Java, they let Post Road Mailer out
for free. For everyone. That was nice.

And then when they found that they couldn't pay their bills, they gave
PLENTY of advanced warning that they would have to do some sort of major
switch of business focus. 
JStreet mailer was nice, but since they didn't seem to plan on going on
with it, it has been left to someone else to maintain, unofficially, and
as far as I know it is available to everyone for FREE.

That's about as classy an exit as you can get. You mean, you
would actually want a quiet exit? Leave you hanging with no
notice? (TrueSpectra was also very nice about it, but I wish they'd given
more warning). I surely hope you are not comparing Innoval's exit with,
say SPG, or CUSeeMe/2 or maybe even DeScribe!

It's too bad about Innoval. I wish them luck, and if our paths should ever
cross in the future, I'll remember the nice things they did.



Isaac

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: josco@ibm.net                                     11-Dec-99 11:47:19
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 19:49:08
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net>


"Steven C. Britton" wrote:

> Bob Germer wrote:
> >
> > > The point I was making was that A-B does exactly the same thing with
> > > their distributor that Microsoft does with theirs.  The only difference
> > > is that MS signs contracts with as many distributors as possible, A-B
> > > signs with one.
> >
> > > Both are perfectly ethical practices.
> >
> > No they are not. The first is. The second is not when a company has a
> > monopoly position as does MS in its markets.
>
> If people wish to enter into exclusive contracts with a certain supplier
> (because that supplier makes it favorable for them to do so) it is perfectly
> ethical.

ANY company can choose to purchase EXCLUSIVELY from a monopoly.  The Company
need NOT sign an exclusive contract to exercise that choice.  Exclusivity can
be
exercised by any buyer freely and that option of buying exclusivity need not
be
written in any contract for the supplier to freely choose.  When it is in the
contract and the supplier is a monopoly then the situation has changed
significantly.

> If 100% of automation distributors want to sell Allen Bradley, there is
> nothing morally wrong with it.

Exclusive contracts are very common which should tell you that your argument
is
is flawed.  Allen Bradley does not possess monopoly power whereas MS does.
Playing dumb about the significance of monopoly power doesn't work.


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: larso@commodore.                                  11-Dec-99 20:02:27
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 19:49:08
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg)

As I stepped out onto the Stoop, I saw Bob Germer write:
> On <82t7pu$js0$2@burn.ab.videon.ca>, on 12/11/99 at 10:07 AM,
>    larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg) said:
> 
> > > Now also let us suppose that you wanted to buy a Jeep for a trek through
> > > the Sahara Desert and needed specialized low pressure tires which
Michelin
> > > did not make. You would have two choices, pay $300 for tires for which
you
> > > had no possible use or buy a Range Rover for about $5,000 more than the
> > > comparable Jeep since Range Rover didn't have such an agreement.
> 
> > $60x4=$5,000?  Your math is about as good as your economics and your
> > ideology.
> 
> Your total idiocy is showing. A Range Rover costs at least $4800 more than
> a comparable Jeep product. If you bothered to have Mommy explain all of
> the above paragraph I wrote, you might comprehend what I wrote.

Ah, but that isn't what you said.  You said that the second choice was to
"buy a Range Rover for about $5,000 more than the comparable Jeep since
Range Rover didn't have such an agreement."  But the higher cost of a Range
Rover is based on more than the tires.  In fact, you speak that in the
current situation (where Michelin isn't nearly as successful) the price is
already higher, making your attempt to blame your extra expenditure on
Michelin's ludicrous at best.

> > If non-Michelin guards are that much more, no wonder 95% of consumers
> > choose Michelin tires.
> 
> You are a total idiot. For Michelin read MS. For blow-out guards read
> software.

If not Microsoft software is three times more than the comparable MS
software, no wonder 95% of consumers choose Microsoft products.

> > > If I am willing to pay several hundred dollars more for a Compaq server
> > > than a workstation which is all I really need, I can get a Compaq with a
> > > different operating system. I can buy SmartSuite to run on it but I will
> > > pay considerably more than the $95 Compaq charges for Office in their
> > > software bundle. Or I can buy a Compaq workstation and throw out the
> > > windows and pay $300 for SmartSuite.
> 
> > Yeah.  Big hairy deal.
> 
> Well, it is to the ten million or so Warp users around the world.

Then a company will tailor its operations to support the ten million
potential worldwide customers!  And why?  Because there is nothing stopping
them from competing with Microsoft.

-- 
Lars P. Ormberg     ICQ#:8827066
mailto:larso@ualberta.ca
The University of Lars:   http://www.ualberta.ca/~larso/

"The way you're bathed in light, reminds me of that night
God laid me down into your rose garden of trust and I was
swept away with nothin' left to say some helpless fool
yeah I was lost in a swoon of peace you're all I need to
find so when the time is right come to me sweetly, come
to me come to me..love will lead us, alright.  love will
lead us, she will lead us.  can you hear the dolphin's
cry?  see the road rise up to meet us its in the air we
breathe tonight love will lead us, she will lead us"
                            -Live, "The Dolphin's Cry"

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: larso@commodore.                                  11-Dec-99 20:32:08
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 19:49:08
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg)

As I stepped out onto the Stoop, I saw Bob Germer write:
>    larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg) said:

> > No, but the line reading "that Lars guy who works for you in Calgary"
> > will be the source of many hours of hilarity.
> 
> I discussed Larso who has a website on their server and claims to be a
> student there.

Except that you don't know where he lives.
You don't know what his name is.
You don't know the difference between what he says and what he does not.
You don't know even what the homepage is...since you've never been there.

Not to mention your problem is that he didn't answer a post where you asked
the idiotic question if he was student or staff.

Or that your complaint is that he's a "dirty Canuck" trying to comment on
the moral validty of U.S. laws.

Or that you're so upset because he doesn't speak out against Microsoft.

While I'm sure that you find this all very very serious crimes against
humanity, I don't think that University administration are going to be too
pleased receiving a stack of paper in the mail, asking to do five minutes of
work for you, when having to sift through the 'evidence' to discover what is
and is not relevent, all because you didn't like the opinion of somebody
(again because they happened to be Canadian).

Besides, the University uses Microsoft products.  Lots of them.  MS Office.
MS Windows 95.  MS Office for MacIntosh.  MS Internet Explorer.  So I don't
think that "I want him booted because he says Microsoft isn't evil" is going
to carry too much weight coming from you.


-- 
Lars P. Ormberg     ICQ#:8827066
mailto:larso@ualberta.ca
The University of Lars:   http://www.ualberta.ca/~larso/

"The way you're bathed in light, reminds me of that night
God laid me down into your rose garden of trust and I was
swept away with nothin' left to say some helpless fool
yeah I was lost in a swoon of peace you're all I need to
find so when the time is right come to me sweetly, come
to me come to me..love will lead us, alright.  love will
lead us, she will lead us.  can you hear the dolphin's
cry?  see the road rise up to meet us its in the air we
breathe tonight love will lead us, she will lead us"
                            -Live, "The Dolphin's Cry"

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: greywolf@onlink.net                               11-Dec-99 15:32:21
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 19:49:08
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: "Wolf Kirchmeir" <greywolf@onlink.net>

On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 05:27:20 GMT, Chris J Delanoy wrote:

=> "Wolf Kirchmeir" <greywolf@onlink.net> wrote:
=>
=>> Demonstrate to me that a rational mind CREATES choices!
=>
=>I'm not going to waste my time at the impossible task of trying to
=>reason with somebody who professes at the outset that his mind is
=>invalid and that reality does not exist.  Somebody like yourself
=>whose only rational conviction is the choice to evade reality can
=>not be convinced.
=>
=>Chris J Delanoy
=>
=>
=>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
=>Before you buy.

And just what makes you think I hold those opinions?

It seems to me that you jump into la-la land to arrive at your peculiar
conclusions.

It's because reality exists that the rational mind does not create choices --
unless of course you have a wierd definition of both rational and mind, in
which case you can prove anything.

In the following brief explanation, I am assuming that rational mind =
reason, create = discover or invent.

Reason can merely compoute the consequences of (possible) choices. It can
neither make those choces (decide between them) nor create them. Choices are
not created, they are apprehended (for this you need imagination), and when
you make a choice it is your emotions working, not your reason. Reason cannot
impel anyone to action; only emotions can.

Of course, when you apprehend a possible choice, if you do not have the
means, you cannot implement that choice. In that case it may be possible for
you to invent or discover the means. Both of these processes are complex, and
reason plays a role in both. But reason alone can neither discover nor
invent.




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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: greywolf@onlink.net                               11-Dec-99 15:35:10
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 19:49:08
Subj: RE: who runs--- Why Napa won't cut mail keys

From: "Wolf Kirchmeir" <greywolf@onlink.net>

On 11 Dec 1999 10:07:58 GMT, Lars P Ormberg wrote:

=> Okay, sure.  I'm
=>still mad at those NAPA bastards for not cutting my mail key last year.

Tsk, tsk.

They were just protecting their ass. How did they know that you were the
legitimate possessor of that key? Just on your ays so? Why should they believ
you?

Oh, because you're so honest, I guess. Proof?




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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: greywolf@onlink.net                               11-Dec-99 15:38:03
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 19:49:08
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: "Wolf Kirchmeir" <greywolf@onlink.net>

On 11 Dec 1999 10:07:58 GMT, Lars P Ormberg wrote:

=>> Now also let us suppose that you wanted to buy a Jeep for a trek through
=>> the Sahara Desert and needed specialized low pressure tires which Michelin
=>> did not make. You would have two choices, pay $300 for tires for which you
=>> had no possible use or buy a Range Rover for about $5,000 more than the
=>> comparable Jeep since Range Rover didn't have such an agreement.
=>
=>$60x4=$5,000?  Your math is about as good as your economics and your
ideology.

And your deliberate misreading is an asshole's stunt.




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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: jmalloy@borg.com                                  11-Dec-99 15:42:15
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 19:49:08
Subj: Re: Tholen digest, volume 2451524.34534324/404^-99999999999999999999,45

From: "Joe Malloy" <jmalloy@borg.com>

Once again, Tholen has pontificated about himself in fact losing an argument
and being an underdog, despite the fact that it was Curtis who resorted to
what could be described as "actual debating mode".  Here's today's digest:

{Nope, still nada!}

Bitte!


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: jmalloy@borg.com                                  11-Dec-99 15:42:16
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 19:49:08
Subj: Re: Tholen digest, volume 2451524.245246243^-.9999999999999999

From: "Joe Malloy" <jmalloy@borg.com>

As he hypocritically noted yesterday, it's time to resume the Bass digest,
for Tholen has witnessed the fact that he can't win, no matter how he
connives.  Moreover, he is thereby guilty of using bandwidth unnecessarily.
The digest format will hopefully reduce his unnecessary usage, though it's
no guarantee (see hypocrite Tholen's other postings for a recent example).
Here's today's digest:

[Nope, still not a thing!]

Bye!


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: jmalloy@borg.com                                  11-Dec-99 15:42:17
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 19:49:08
Subj: Re: Tholen digest, volume 2451524.244809768598^.98989898988999989809

From: "Joe Malloy" <jmalloy@borg.com>

Tholen's really losing it, if he hasn't already done so -- he calls this non
sequitur "response" to Pascal a "digest," thus giving the lie once and for
all the the concept of digestification.
Here's today's digest:

<tholenAntiSpam@hawaii.edu> wrote in message
news:82tiqu$giv$2@news.hawaii.edu...
> Today's Haakmat digest:
>
> 1> Yeah. Isn't he cute? <sigh>
>
> Aren't you sure, Pascal?

Tholen twists slowly, slowly in the wind!  De nada!



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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: larso@commodore.                                  11-Dec-99 20:42:29
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 19:49:08
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg)

As I stepped out onto the Stoop, I saw Bob Germer write:
> On <82m84j$m61$8@burn.ab.videon.ca>, on 12/08/99 at 06:30 PM,
>    larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg) said:
> 
> > > I understand that it is your belief that a trader is permitted to do 
> > > virtually anything that does not involve bloodshed. That has not been
true 
> > > for over a century.
> 
> > Then the U.S. has not been a free society for over a century.
> 
> Neither, then, has Canada, Great Britain, or any other country in the
> western world which regulates businesses for the good of the common
> citizen.

The problem is that this good is never acheived.  It's a folly.  So your
defense for the restriction of freedom turns out to fail anyways.

> Of course that is absurd. By your infantile, distorted reasoning not
> worthy of a kindergarten dropout, only anarchy would be acceptable.

NMo it wouldn't.  Small government doesn't equal anarchy.

> I have decided that I will never interview a graduate of the University of
> Alberta if they confer any degree upon you.

Don't worry, I don't think that would have been much of an issue.

>                                               If you are an example of the
> university, the university is a disgrace to the name, the province, the
> country, and the world.

Oh well, this is just another subset of your continued irrationality.  I'm
sure when a person is told "sorry, you didn't get the job because somebody
who went to your University once told me Microsoft shouldn't be controlled
by the government" that their first instinct will be to breathe relief that
they didn't end up working for a boss who's that crazy.

> A copy of this message is being sent to the university.

A copy of this message is being sent to the newsgroups.

SO THERE!

-- 
Lars P. Ormberg     ICQ#:8827066
mailto:larso@ualberta.ca
The University of Lars:   http://www.ualberta.ca/~larso/

"The way you're bathed in light, reminds me of that night
God laid me down into your rose garden of trust and I was
swept away with nothin' left to say some helpless fool
yeah I was lost in a swoon of peace you're all I need to
find so when the time is right come to me sweetly, come
to me come to me..love will lead us, alright.  love will
lead us, she will lead us.  can you hear the dolphin's
cry?  see the road rise up to meet us its in the air we
breathe tonight love will lead us, she will lead us"
                            -Live, "The Dolphin's Cry"

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: greywolf@onlink.net                               11-Dec-99 15:53:25
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 19:49:08
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: "Wolf Kirchmeir" <greywolf@onlink.net>

On 11 Dec 1999 05:32:31 GMT, Lars P Ormberg wrote:

=>Harming _you_ by only selling you the product you wanted under a condition
=>you didn't want.  If you are so upset by it, then don't get it.  If you want
=>the Learjet that bad, I guess you have to pay the price they want.  Its
=>their right to set the price they are willing to sell for.  Price happens to
=>be on a block of property that is "all or nothing" then you'll either buy
=>all or nothing.  Capice?

I'm not complaining about the price of the Learjet. Not at all. I want it!
I'm willing to pay for it! I came to Learjet with the cheque in my hot little
hand, all ready to deal! Or did you miss that part of my post?

I'm not willing to pay for the other plane, that's all. Why should I? And why
should it be considered moral for a company to try to unload something on me
by tieing it to the product that I want to buy from them? That's coercion, no
matter how you slice it.

Seems to me you like the idea of the power to force people to buy
all-or-nothing. That makes you not only a fool, but a first-rate prick as
well. Sorry, I misspoke myself. A thrid-rate prick.

Business is a relationship between supplier and customer. A business is not
an entity unto itself. It needs customers, and therefore has responsibilities
towards them. The customer has a responsibility to the business, too -- to
pay a fair price (else the business can't stay in business, etc. You can
figure out the rest of the argument yourself. No, on 2nd thought, you can't
-- but I ain't gonna do it for you.)

Your problem is that you think property rights are the only rights. They are
are contingent rights at best; and non-exisent in most human relationships.



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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: larso@commodore.                                  11-Dec-99 21:09:16
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 19:49:08
Subj: Re: who runs--- Why Napa won't cut mail keys

From: larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg)

As I stepped out onto the Stoop, I saw Wolf Kirchmeir write:
> On 11 Dec 1999 10:07:58 GMT, Lars P Ormberg wrote:
> 
> => Okay, sure.  I'm
> =>still mad at those NAPA bastards for not cutting my mail key last year.
> 
> Tsk, tsk.
> 
> They were just protecting their ass. How did they know that you were the
> legitimate possessor of that key?

Other places acknowledge that you have a key, that there's no way to know
who's key it is, and they might as well copy it for you.


-- 
Lars P. Ormberg     ICQ#:8827066
mailto:larso@ualberta.ca
The University of Lars:   http://www.ualberta.ca/~larso/

"The way you're bathed in light, reminds me of that night
God laid me down into your rose garden of trust and I was
swept away with nothin' left to say some helpless fool
yeah I was lost in a swoon of peace you're all I need to
find so when the time is right come to me sweetly, come
to me come to me..love will lead us, alright.  love will
lead us, she will lead us.  can you hear the dolphin's
cry?  see the road rise up to meet us its in the air we
breathe tonight love will lead us, she will lead us"
                            -Live, "The Dolphin's Cry"

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: larso@commodore.                                  11-Dec-99 21:07:18
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 19:49:08
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg)

As I stepped out onto the Stoop, I saw Wolf Kirchmeir write:
> On 11 Dec 1999 10:07:58 GMT, Lars P Ormberg wrote:
> 
> =>> Now also let us suppose that you wanted to buy a Jeep for a trek through
> =>> the Sahara Desert and needed specialized low pressure tires which
Michelin
> =>> did not make. You would have two choices, pay $300 for tires for which
you
> =>> had no possible use or buy a Range Rover for about $5,000 more than the
> =>> comparable Jeep since Range Rover didn't have such an agreement.
> =>
> =>$60x4=$5,000?  Your math is about as good as your economics and your
ideology.
> 
> And your deliberate misreading is an asshole's stunt.

I'm not misreading.  Bob's attempt to "blame" the extra cost on Michelin
wasn't valid.

-- 
Lars P. Ormberg     ICQ#:8827066
mailto:larso@ualberta.ca
The University of Lars:   http://www.ualberta.ca/~larso/

"The way you're bathed in light, reminds me of that night
God laid me down into your rose garden of trust and I was
swept away with nothin' left to say some helpless fool
yeah I was lost in a swoon of peace you're all I need to
find so when the time is right come to me sweetly, come
to me come to me..love will lead us, alright.  love will
lead us, she will lead us.  can you hear the dolphin's
cry?  see the road rise up to meet us its in the air we
breathe tonight love will lead us, she will lead us"
                            -Live, "The Dolphin's Cry"

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: siberREMOVETHIS@sympatico.ca                      11-Dec-99 21:19:16
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 19:49:08
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: siberREMOVETHIS@sympatico.ca (E. Barry Bruyea)

On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 16:05:39 GMT, Chris J Delanoy
<cdelanoy@ualberta.ca> wrote:

> Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com> wrote:
>
>> You and a handful of others here are the only irrational beings
>> here.
>
>Irrationality is the act of saying - and believing - that companies
>can simultaneously charge prices that are above AND below market
>prices.  Irrationality is the act of saying - and believing - that
>you are being forced against your will to use a product, while at
>the same time you declare at the bottom of every message you post
>that you do NOT use that product.


It's the Bill Clinton approach.
EBB

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: larso@commodore.                                  11-Dec-99 21:13:09
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 19:49:08
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg)

As I stepped out onto the Stoop, I saw josco write:
> On 10 Dec 1999, Lars P Ormberg wrote:
> 
> > As I stepped out onto the Stoop, I saw Joseph write:
> > > Lars P Ormberg wrote:
> > > Hey, I can make that same nutty argument about my property rights. I
> > > think it can be fun.  Let me try.....
> > 
> > Let's see if you, too, can show freedom being limited only by causing harm
> > (not, of course, for the 'harm' of being sold something) by initiating
force or
> > fraud.
> 
> A business is a property.  

Yes.  And its not yours the consumer's property.

> > Yes, you do have that right, even though the Canadian government
> > (government...the usurper of freedom...remember that) has taken it away.
> > You are morally justified, though you'll get thrown in jail for it (the
> > same as Microsoft will be punished by the state for doing morally
justified
> > but illegal actions).
> 
> Well now we have some progress -- you now recognize the LAW

In the case of anti-trust, I've been recognizing the invalidity OF THE LAW
repeatedly.

> A gun is measureable.  Monopoly power is measurable.

Monopoly power requires a monopoly.  Microsoft isn't a monopoly.

Measuring the monopoly powers of Microsoft is like measuring the number of
guns on the head of a pin.  There are none.

> You have refused to recognize the phenomena of a monoipoly and monopoly
> power.

I will not lie and say that Microsoft is a monopoly.
I will not lie and say that Microsoft can use monopoly power.

-- 
Lars P. Ormberg     ICQ#:8827066
mailto:larso@ualberta.ca
The University of Lars:   http://www.ualberta.ca/~larso/

"The way you're bathed in light, reminds me of that night
God laid me down into your rose garden of trust and I was
swept away with nothin' left to say some helpless fool
yeah I was lost in a swoon of peace you're all I need to
find so when the time is right come to me sweetly, come
to me come to me..love will lead us, alright.  love will
lead us, she will lead us.  can you hear the dolphin's
cry?  see the road rise up to meet us its in the air we
breathe tonight love will lead us, she will lead us"
                            -Live, "The Dolphin's Cry"

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: ispy@groovyshow.com                               11-Dec-99 14:38:17
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 19:49:08
Subj: Oops, my fault

From: "Kelly Robinson, the Xth Doctor" <ispy@groovyshow.com>

Just saying that I lacked the stupidity to remain here doesn't mean I
can't bitch about you dingbats somewhere else.

After all, it was one of y'all which said us Windows Advocates seem to
spend more time in the OS/2 forum than anywhere else.

So don't blame me if I'm trying to beat dead horses on the race track,
okay?  OS/2, in the real world, is dead and quite mundane - which is why
the "windows advocates", as you mislabel us, hang around your
newsgroup.  Duh.  Do you get it now?

:-)

--

-=-

If I am not me, then who am I?
Don't ask me, I just live here.


--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: greywolf@onlink.net                               11-Dec-99 16:12:03
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 19:49:08
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: "Wolf Kirchmeir" <greywolf@onlink.net>

On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 10:27:10 -0700, Steven C. Britton wrote:

=>If people wish to enter into exclusive contracts with a certain supplier
=>(because that supplier makes it favorable for them to do so) it is perfectly
=>ethical.

That depends on whether the buyer is the end user of the product, or a
distributor. Distributors must cater to those customers who (might) want some
other makers' products. If they don't, the consequence might well be that
those other makers go out of business -- not because their product was poorer
value, but because their potential customers couldn't access them, and
therefore couldn't choose. In that case, the exclusive contract between maker
and distributor has the effect of limiting competition, and that's bad. But
then, you see, I believe that the only basis of competition should be value.
IOW, only the end-users choices matter.

=>If 100% of automation distributors want to sell Allen Bradley, there is
=>nothing morally wrong with it.

Oh yes there is. That would eliminate customers' ability to choose. That's
wrong.

OTOH, if 100% of  the >>customers<< decide they want Allan Bradley products,
that's OK. It's the customers who must have the choice, not anyone else in
the chain of supply.



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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: greywolf@onlink.net                               11-Dec-99 16:16:10
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 19:49:08
Subj: Re: who runs--- Why Napa won't cut mail keys

From: "Wolf Kirchmeir" <greywolf@onlink.net>

On 11 Dec 1999 21:09:32 GMT, Lars P Ormberg wrote:

=>Other places acknowledge that you have a key, that there's no way to know
=>who's key it is, and they might as well copy it for you.

True enough, but they only have to get burned once. PO Box keys are not
supposed to be cut for anyone except a PO person.

BTW, it's WHOSE -- a common error.  WHO'S means WHO IS.



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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               11-Dec-99 16:36:28
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 19:49:08
Subj: Re: Bass digest, volume 2451524

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

tholenAntiSpam@hawaii.edu wrote:
> 
> As I noted yesterday, it's time to resume the Bass digest,

Was it "time" then or now?  Do make up your mind Dave.

> having witnessed him posting multiple responses to a single article,

See the thread labelled Amodeo Digest, hypocrite.

> thereby using bandwidth unnecessarily.

"'Is it because of your sex life that you are going through all of this?'

 I warned you about going down that path, Marty."

> The digest format will hopefully reduce his unnecessary usage,

What alleged "unnecessary usage"?

> though it's no guarantee (see Marty's postings for a recent example).

A better example of "unnecessary usage" is:
"'Is it because of your sex life that you are going through all of this?'

 I warned you about going down that path, Marty."

> Here's today's digest:
> 
> 1> I am saying that a copy of a file that is missing bytes, regardless
> 1> of how or why, is a corrupt file.
> 
> That doesn't explain your use of the word "removed", Curtis.

Nor does it explain, "Yet to look at the contents..."
 
> 1> Your haggling over this is just another attempt to avoid your errors.
> 
> How ironic, coming from the person who resorted to "emulation mode"
> to avoid the issue.

How ironic, coming from the person who resorted to "emulation mode" to avoid
the issue.
"'Is it because of your sex life that you are going through all of this?'

 I warned you about going down that path, Marty."
 
> 1> "Alteration of the bytes" is not a prerequisite.  Missing bytes is
> 1> sufficient.
> 
> How can you corrupt what isn't there, Curtis?

Someone seems to have corrupted your mind.  You tell us.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: don_wagner@my-deja.com                            11-Dec-99 21:23:21
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 19:49:08
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Don Wagner <don_wagner@my-deja.com>

In article <385288d8_1@news.cadvision.com>,
  "Steven C. Britton" <scb@scb-group.com> wrote:
> Don Wagner wrote:
> >
> > Cutler Hammer RULES!!!!!! :)
>
> Crappy Hammer?  It's almost as bad as Telemickeymouse.

You mean TeleSquaredSchneider?

Besides Cutler Hammer has way nicer jackets and a GORGEOUS
lady to answer the phone in Richmond.

Don't you wish YOU had the Advantage starter?

Don Wagner


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: larso@commodore.                                  11-Dec-99 21:21:12
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 19:49:08
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg)

As I stepped out onto the Stoop, I saw Mike Trettel slrnerifically write:
> On 8 Dec 1999 17:57:06 GMT, Lars P Ormberg <larso@commodore.> wrote:

> >Yes.  That would be expressed in the contract.  As with all contracts,
there
> >are clauses which must be upheld.  Are you telling me that all these
> >companies failed to read the fine print?  (Which doesn't matter, since when
> >you sign a contract you're responsible for all parts of it).
> 
> Actually, that's incorrect under US law.  Under US law a contract is null
> and void if it is entered to under duress (one example), or if it states
> that the contractee must do something illegal

When was selling products illegal?  Oh yeah, under antitrust law.

> Contract law is *not* the simple thing that you've made it out to be.

When there's no force/fraud involved in signing the contract, and nobody is
initiatng force/fraud in the contract, why shouldn't it be so simple?

>                                                                      The
> classic example of the first condition is Microsoft pressuring IBM to
> drop OS/2 alltogether in order to get the same OEM price as Dell and
> Compaq.

In other words, IBM wanted to do things Microsoft didn't want, and expected
to get a special deal from Microsoft despite this.  If you think about it
for a moment, you'll see how idiotic MS would be to give IBM a deal in this
scenario.

>              IBM balked at this, so MS basically told IBM they can pay the
> full over the counter price.

MS can ask any price they want.  Do you disagree with this?

>                               IBM didn't get a contract until 15 minutes
> before the official Win95 release date, and signed because they knew that
> the IBM PC Co. would be dead in the water without Win95.

Yep.

>                                                           I know you will
> state that IBM did this "voluntarily", but the Norris testimony in the
> antitrust trial shows pretty clearly that IBM did it to keep the PcCo
> alive.

Companies act all the time to preserve their company.

A company reducing its cost to make it more competitive with a competitor's
product is "voluntarily" acting, but I'm sure it is pretty clear that a
company would do so to keep themselves alive.


This situation is NO DIFFERENT.


> You'll just hand wave this away though.  It must be nice to be always
> right.

Oh, its a treat.

> >Any contract requires you to perform the actions specified.  It isn't being
> >"forced", because you chose to sign the contract.
> 
> And if the contract states you must break the law in some fashion?  Is
> that a legal contract?

Legal, no.  But if the law you'd be breaking is unjust, then the contract
should be legal since the unjust thing wouldn't exist.

> >Economic force has no power except from government.  Having to live up to
> >the terms of the contract is not force or coercion.
> 
> 100 years of antitrust law in the US disagrees with this proposition.

And its wrong.
It's an attack on freedom.

> >You don't _need_ to buy bread.  There's a difference.
> 
> I suppose I don't need to breath, either.  This statement is so far from
> reality that it's nonsense.

Your statement has absolutely nothing to do with mine.  Try to follow along.

> >Nobody has yet shown a real world example where Microsoft "forced" somebody
> >to do something.  The _only_ demonstrations to date have been a company
> >signing a contract and having to live up to its terms.
> 
> The only way you can accept this is to totally ignore the testimony
> offered in the antitrust trial and the findings of fact.

Give an example, please.

What part of the trial featured people telling stories of gangs forcing
them to use Windows?

-- 
Lars P. Ormberg     ICQ#:8827066
mailto:larso@ualberta.ca
The University of Lars:   http://www.ualberta.ca/~larso/

"The way you're bathed in light, reminds me of that night
God laid me down into your rose garden of trust and I was
swept away with nothin' left to say some helpless fool
yeah I was lost in a swoon of peace you're all I need to
find so when the time is right come to me sweetly, come
to me come to me..love will lead us, alright.  love will
lead us, she will lead us.  can you hear the dolphin's
cry?  see the road rise up to meet us its in the air we
breathe tonight love will lead us, she will lead us"
                            -Live, "The Dolphin's Cry"

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: greywolf@onlink.net                               11-Dec-99 16:28:02
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 19:49:08
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: "Wolf Kirchmeir" <greywolf@onlink.net>

On 11 Dec 1999 21:07:36 GMT, Lars P Ormberg wrote:

=>I'm not misreading.  Bob's attempt to "blame" the extra cost on Michelin
=>wasn't valid.

Bob's arithmetic was (prices for argument's sake only)

Jeep with Michelin tires = $25,000, of which $300 is for tires Bob doesn't
want.

Range Rover with other tires = $30,000, of which $300 (more or less) is for
tires he does want.

So to get the tires he does want, he has to pay about $5,000 more, even
though the tires themselves don't cost $5,000 (about the only point you got
right.)

There's another alternative, buy the Jeep, junk the tires, and replace them.
Cheaper, but still involving wasted money.

A customer should not be put in this position. Customers wishes must take
precedence over business's desires. (Always excepting the customer's wish to
pay too little for the product. I reiterate: business is a relationship, with
mutual but not symmetrical responsibilities.)

And just because I put that last remark in brackets doesn't mean it's
parenthetical. It's essential to the argument. If you can't accept it as a
moral truth, there's no point talking to you anymore.

You continually talk as if no one had any responsibilities to anyone. If you
really believe that, you can't justify objections to anything anyone might do
to you. So you don't like it! So what? If my only responsibility is to
myself, why should I care whether you like it or not? I'll do what I like,
and if it kills you, too bad.




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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               11-Dec-99 17:26:17
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 19:49:08
Subj: Re: How to form a digest

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

So hence, we've established a pattern for what Tholen does when he sees no
other way out of a losing argument.

1] Create a phrase which he can use as a banner under which to place all of
his
   adversary's postings, such as "infantile game" or "emulation mode".
2] Pontificate that his adversary is posting articles typifying said banner.
3] Develop a catch-phrase to knock down the phony strawman banner he created
in
   step 1.
4] Declare that it is now "time to digestify" his adversary's postitings.
5] Gather all relevant points stated by the adversary in question
6] Reply to one of the adversary's postings (preferably one that is
cross-posted
   to several newsgroups), changing the title to "[name of his adversary] 
   Digest, volume [current 'stardate']"
7] Remove all context from the gathered postings
8] Respond to each point for which he has no logical response or each point
which
   is too uncomfortable or embarrassing for response with the phrase developed
in
   step 3.
9] Repeat steps 5 through 8, throwing in a healthy smathering of step 2.
10] Cook at 325 degrees for 2 hours being sure to turn the digest every half
hour

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               11-Dec-99 17:38:11
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 19:49:08
Subj: Re: When will it be 100% done?

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Bob Germer wrote:
> 
> On <MPG.12bb973b590b9f61989681@news-server.mgfairfax.rr.com>, on 12/11/99
> at 03:45 AM,
>    David H. McCoy <fake@forgitaboutit.com> said:
> 
> > No suprise. Bob Germer is the uber-racists of OS/2. It is a shame that
> > so many  OS/2 users don't pick their allies more carefully.
> 
> Ah, Herr Goebels, you are at it again.

How ironic.
 
> Marty, another MS whore like you,

Poor Bob doesn't have a clue, does he?  I'm more of an OS/2 advocate than he
is.  [Hint for boob:  check my message headers, then search Deja for articles
in other os2 groups posted by me]

> deliberately took statements out of context in another newsgroup.

How does one take:
"Since you are a Canuck, your opinoin is worth less than garbage."
"Typical conduct of an Arab terrorist. You can't win a rational argument so
you
attempt to blow others up."

out of context?  They are all-inclusive statements.  That's what racism is all
about.

> He was slapped down hard about Canuck being a totally acceptable reference
to
> Canadians.

"Since you are a Canuck, your opinoin is worth less than garbage."

I never said anything about the word Canuck, Boob.  I took exception to the
generalization about the opinions of Canadians as being prejudicial.  Amazing
you haven't realized that yet.

> One even pointed out that the National Hockey League team in Vancouver is 
> called the Canucks.

Good for them.  I suppose the opinions of said hockey team are worth "less
than
garbage" too, eh Boob?

> And as I clearly stated the term Arab terrorist was used to differentiate
> between true believers (Arab terrorists) who are acting according to their
> training and belief as opposed to nut cases like the Unabomber or the
> school shooters who are mentally ill at best.

Nice try boob, but putting the statement back in context, as you wanted to do
above, your statement toward Ali (aka Hobbyist) had no such intended meaning.

> But the truth has no impact on sociopaths like you.

How ironic, coming from the sociopath who said:
"Since you are a Canuck, your opinoin is worth less than garbage."
"Typical conduct of an Arab terrorist. You can't win a rational argument so
you
attempt to blow others up."

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               11-Dec-99 17:45:26
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 19:49:08
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Tim Martin wrote:
> [more spam]

Don't you think once was enough to post your spam?  Why not confine it to
appropriate newsgroups?

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: cndbass@yahoo.com                                 11-Dec-99 22:34:26
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 19:49:08
Subj: Re: Bass digest, volume 2451524

From: Curtis Bass <cndbass@yahoo.com>


Marty wrote:

-- snip --

> > thereby using bandwidth unnecessarily.
> 
> "'Is it because of your sex life that you are going through all of this?'
> 
>  I warned you about going down that path, Marty."

Yup, Dave's hypocrisy is limitless.

> > The digest format will hopefully reduce his unnecessary usage,
> 
> What alleged "unnecessary usage"?

I guess it's another example of Tholen's pontification.

-- snip --

> > How can you corrupt what isn't there, Curtis?
> 
> Someone seems to have corrupted your mind.  You tell us.

LOL!


Curtis

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From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               11-Dec-99 17:49:28
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 19:49:08
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Tim Martin wrote:
> 
> It is too bad you miss all the other good news and
> information Warp City offers its members.

It is too bad your spam continues to infest these newsgroups.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               11-Dec-99 17:56:04
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 19:49:08
Subj: Re: Jury scheduled to hear Caldera vs. Microsoft next January

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

letoured@nospam.net wrote:
> 
> Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> said:
> 
> >Karel Jansens wrote:
> 
> Just curious; what alter are you going to kneel at when the DOJ breaks up
> MS?

I see you haven't bothered comprehending my position.  Do you even know who
you
are addressing?

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: josco@ibm.net                                     11-Dec-99 15:04:01
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 19:49:08
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net>


Lars P Ormberg wrote:

> As I stepped out onto the Stoop, I saw josco write:
> > On 10 Dec 1999, Lars P Ormberg wrote:
> >
> > > As I stepped out onto the Stoop, I saw Joseph write:
> > > > Lars P Ormberg wrote:
> > > > Hey, I can make that same nutty argument about my property rights. I
> > > > think it can be fun.  Let me try.....
> > >
> > > Let's see if you, too, can show freedom being limited only by causing
harm
> > > (not, of course, for the 'harm' of being sold something) by initiating
force or
> > > fraud.
> >
> > A business is a property.
>
> Yes.  And its not yours the consumer's property.

No doubt.
But I have a business and your business is hurting mine.  My god - how do we
resolve
that problem if property rights are so absolute?  Of course the answer is no
right is
absolute.  Why you can be sent to war, forced to forfeit your life for the
protection
of the state.   And you think ranting about absolute property rights can
defend a
monopoly.


> > > Yes, you do have that right, even though the Canadian government
> > > (government...the usurper of freedom...remember that) has taken it away.
> > > You are morally justified, though you'll get thrown in jail for it (the
> > > same as Microsoft will be punished by the state for doing morally
justified
> > > but illegal actions).
> >
> > Well now we have some progress -- you now recognize the LAW
>
> In the case of anti-trust, I've been recognizing the invalidity OF THE LAW
> repeatedly.

No Sir.
You deny the concept of monopoly and monopoly power.   Your examples equate a
small
company's market power with a monopoly's power.  The tow are very different.
legal or
not  You have NOT accepted the idea of monopoly power.  That's a corrupt
argument.  Ms
has acquired monopoly power and you deny it has any.  That's not arguing
against the
law.


> > A gun is measureable.  Monopoly power is measurable.
>
> Monopoly power requires a monopoly.  Microsoft isn't a monopoly.

Poor boy.  You have to argue against the law - not that the law is not valid
to MS.
MS is called a monopoly under the law.  If the argument is that MS is not a
monopoly
then the laws still stand.

> Measuring the monopoly powers of Microsoft is like measuring the number of
> guns on the head of a pin.  There are none.

Guns exist and are powerful but legal to own.   That is the defense of gun
ownership.
No-one denies their power or quibbles over their definition of a gun least
they become
incredible and foolish.   Monopolies exist and are powerful.  Deny they exist
and deny
MS is a monopoly and you become incredible and foolish.  Lies never help a
cause.
Logic and reason - accept a vocabulary and fight for your cause with ideas.
Accept the
legal definition of monopoly and defend MS.  Deny the definition and remain
the
irrelevant fool.

> You have refused to recognize the phenomena of a monopoly and monopoly

> > power.
>
> I will not lie and say that Microsoft is a monopoly.
> I will not lie and say that Microsoft can use monopoly power.

Lies and more lies.


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: jglatt@spamgone-borg.com                          11-Dec-99 23:05:24
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 19:49:08
Subj: Re: Bass digest, volume 2451524

From: jglatt@spamgone-borg.com (Jeff Glatt)

>>Ian "The Moron" Tholen
>>How can you corrupt what isn't there, Curtis?

>Marty
>Someone seems to have corrupted [Ian "The Moron" Tholen's] mind.

Ian's mind certainly is there, Marty. You simply have to look much
lower than where you'd normally expect to find it. After all, the
human brain is inside the human head, and you know where Ian's head is

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: josco@ibm.net                                     11-Dec-99 15:05:02
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 19:49:08
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net>


"E. Barry Bruyea" wrote:

> On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 16:05:39 GMT, Chris J Delanoy
> <cdelanoy@ualberta.ca> wrote:
>
> > Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com> wrote:
> >
> >> You and a handful of others here are the only irrational beings
> >> here.
> >
> >Irrationality is the act of saying - and believing - that companies
> >can simultaneously charge prices that are above AND below market
> >prices.  Irrationality is the act of saying - and believing - that
> >you are being forced against your will to use a product, while at
> >the same time you declare at the bottom of every message you post
> >that you do NOT use that product.
>
> It's the Bill Clinton approach.

And of Bill Gates.

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From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               11-Dec-99 18:31:26
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 21:20:14
Subj: Re: Jury scheduled to hear Caldera vs. Microsoft next January

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Karel Jansens wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 10 Dec 1999 23:39:02, Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> wrote:
> 
> > Karel Jansens wrote:
> > >
> > > On Fri, 10 Dec 1999 02:07:42, Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Karel Jansens wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, 9 Dec 1999 21:59:22, Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Karel Jansens wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Thu, 9 Dec 1999 02:13:15, Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Karel Jansens wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Bob says he doesn't (and I know similar firms who indeed
don't). On
> > > > > > > > > what basis do you doubt him?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > How's this for starters:
> > > > > > > > "Since you are a Canuck, your opinoin is worth less than
garbage."
> > > > > > > > "Typical conduct of an Arab terrorist. You can't win a
rational 
> > > > > > > >  argument so you attempt to blow others up."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Oookayyy...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Actually, I was referring to the data of the case provided, so I 
could
> > > > > > > have a chance to reply.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That didn't stop you from replying, Karel.
> > > > > >
> > > > > ????
> > > >
> > > > You still replied, in spite of your alleged lack of "a chance". 
Reading
> > > > comprehension problems?
> > > >
> > > Ah. I see now. Semantics.
> >
> > Yours perhaps, if you are attempting to pursue this.  The point of fact is 
that
> > you replied in spite of the alleged lack of "referring to the data of the
> > case".
> >
> Look, if you're going to play that game, I'm out.

What alleged game, Karel?  I'm countering your misinformation.

> I can't say why I can't reply without posting *something*. I was trying to
be
> (somewhat) polite

Unnecessary, Karel.

> by letting you know I had read your post, but didn't want to react, 
> because I had been reacting only to the facts of the case sofar.

Doing so is inherently hypocritical.

> This is an issue to you,

The truth is an issue to me, Karel.

> but not to me.

An obvious lie, given how you continue to make "an issue" out of it.

> *PLONK*, IIRC, would be the correct reaction for me?

That would be quite convenient for you, however, not correct by any stretch.

> > > > > > > Now, all I can say is: "Indeed. Well... yes".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Glad you agree that those statements are indeed a basis on which
he may
> > > > > > be doubted.
> > > > >
> > > > > Just as long as you add: "... for me" to that sentence.
> > > >
> > > > On the contrary, the above quoted statements are indeed a valid basis
on which
> > > > *anyone* may doubt Bob, especially in light of his lack of retraction. 
 Your
> > > > lack of courage to take such a stand is typical, however.
> > >
> > > He didn't retract, he explained.
> >
> > I can give someone a black-eye and then explain that I thought there was a 
gnat
> > on their eyelid.  Is this an acceptable thing to do?
> >
> Funny thing: about the same happened to me once. It was a *huge* wasp
> and not my eye, and I was pretty angry until I saw the size of the
> insect.
> 
> It all depends whether there was a gnat or just the intention to punch
> someone's lights out.

Does:
"Since you are a Canuck, your opinoin is worth less than garbage."
"Typical conduct of an Arab terrorist. You can't win a rational argument so
you
attempt to blow others up."

sound like Bob was doing anyone a favor?

> > > And no matter how one interprets those remarks, they have absolutely no
> > > relevance to his credibility re the facts of the case presented.
> >
> > They have relevance to his credibility as a whole, which casts doubt on
his
> > credibility on specific issues.
> >
> You've been playing silly games with Tholen, Bennett and Haakmat
> for... How long is it now? This would do what to your credibility?

I have been countering misinformation, FUD, and have been pointing out
inconsistencies and substantiating claims.  Are these things "silly games" to
you Karel?

Before you answer that, realize that you are about to make a statement about
Tholen's credibility, who himself has been intimately involved in all of these
threads you mention in the same capacities as the other participants.

> > > They could make him despicable, yes, but not incredible.
> >
> > There's nothing incredible about Bob.  He's quite ordinary, unfortunately.
> >
> Possible language problem on my part? I meant incredible as "having no
> credibility". This was not the right word?

(Double meaning.  Actually "incredible" as in "amazing" is quite similar in
concept because what is described as "incredible" is so amazing that your
credibility can be doubted for saying so.  However "incredible" has taken on
more of a connotation of "amazing", at least in the US.)

> > > If you'd like to start a new thread, "Bob Germer is a redneck racist" or
> > > suchlike, I'd gladly give my opinions and contribute to it.
> >
> > Dubious.
> >
> You don't *know* that.

Never claimed I did.

> So why are you saying this?

I find such a statement dubious, given your past performances.
 
> > > However, to the issues I have been reacting to, this is of no
significance.
> >
> > Incorrect.

Note: no response

> > > So what courage would I need then?
> >
> > The courage to be objective and not accept someone's word on blind faith,
> > especially someone who has shown that their own objectivity and grasp of
truth
> > and reality is highly questionable.  Perhaps you can redirect the courage
you
> > summoned to defend Bob over to this new area.
> >
> Objectivity works both ways, Marty. You say: "I don't see many reasons
> to believe Bob". I say: "I don't see many reasons not to believe Bob".

You would be correct if that's all I stated.  However, I have stated:
1] "I don't see any reasons to believe Bob"
2] "I see several reasons to doubt Bob"

> And in any case, it is quite irrelevant to my argumentation whether
> Bob has been describing a real case or just made it up. I have argued
> that the described cause of events is plausible, that there are no
> significant inconsistencies which would make it improbable to have
> happened.

I can describe many plausible situations which are lies, Karel.  If this is
the
crux of your argumentation, then your opinions are "worth less than garbage"
as
your buddy would say.

> > > To you I would have to say:
> >
> > So why not just say it?
> >
> Because that would be stupid!

According to who, Karel?  You?

> I have argued that the events are logical, and then I would have to
> conclude: "No, this cannot be right, because the man who described the
> events doesn't have a nice personality".

On what basis do you feel you would "have to conclude" the above?  Certainly
not from anything I've said.

> I may do many things to please other people,

Yes, we've seen your responses to and about Tholen.

> but I'm not prepared to drop logic to make you happy.

You need not "drop" what you haven't picked up, Karel, nor would the abondment
of logic "make me happy".  Quite the opposite, as I am asking you to be
objective and logical.

> > > "Okay, Bob Germer did present a credible explanation for his
installation
> > > of Warp on his client's pc's, but because he said this and that I choose
> > > not to believe him." That's consequent behaviour then?
> >
> > You're presupposing that Bob did present a credible explanation for his
> > installation of Warp on his client's PCs.
> >
> Yes, he did.

Your assumption, one which I do not share.

> > "Bob says he doesn't (and I know similar firms who indeed don't). On what
basis
> > do you doubt him?"
> >
> > Sorry, but we don't all share your blind faith in Bob, especially after
reading
> > his postings.
> >
> > Due to lack of hard facts at my disposal regarding Bob's clients, and due
to
> > the presence of such negative, biased commentary from Bob himself I am
left to
> > take Bob's statements with a pillar of salt at best.  He has done nothing
to
> > convince me of his credibility (which is not particularly his fault) and
quite
> > a bit to refute it (which most certainly is his fault).
> 
> See above. Even if he lied his teeth out, the story still has an
> internal logic, and that's all that matters.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you are more concerned about what you
refer to as "logic" than the truth.  Tholen has taught you well, grasshopper.

> After all, not a single one of you is more than letters on a monitor
> (with the exceptions of Dave Tholen, Esther Schindler and Jim Stuyck,
> of whom I've seen photographs - and even then...).

http://www.rit.edu/~meseec/picnic99/img60.jpg
Front row, far left.  Does this make me any more or less credible?

> The entire "credibility" issue is a laugh;

Coming from the person running interference for Tholen and Bob, it certainly
is.

> do you really think any of you has a real world credibility rating higher 
> than 0 to me?

I suppose your use of my software doesn't give me credibility with you.

> The only thing I can judge is internal consistency of postings on UseNet or
> comparison with facts that I know personally,

Compared to the facts you know personally, does someone who says:
"Since you are a Canuck, your opinoin is worth less than garbage."
"Typical conduct of an Arab terrorist. You can't win a rational argument so
you
attempt to blow others up."

have any credibility?

> and that's all I'm prepared to rate on.

Apparently not.

> I don't expect anything more from the rest of you either.

And you expect considerably less from your "buddies", Tholen and Germer.

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From: cdelanoy@ualberta.ca                              11-Dec-99 23:15:13
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 21:20:14
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Chris J Delanoy <cdelanoy@ualberta.ca>

 "Wolf Kirchmeir" <greywolf@onlink.net> wrote:

> In the following brief explanation, I am assuming that rational
> mind = reason, create = discover or invent.

Your "brief explanation" totally avoids the issue:  namely
what is the faculty which permits humans to discover or to
invent new physical existents.

> Choices are not created, they are apprehended (for this you need
> imagination), and when you make a choice it is your emotions
> working, not your reason.

Emotions are not a means of cognition;  they are the instantaneous
output that your mind calculates in response to the perception of
an object, and are governed by two factors:  first, your
understanding and identification of what the object IS, and second,
your evaluation of the object (ie - whether it is good or evil,
desirable or undesirable, right or wrong, etc. ) - both of which are
a product of the conceptual integrations and differentiations you
have performed.

Consider the emotional reactions that various humans would have to
a film depicting a new surgical procedure, for example:  a surgeon
might experience joy at the sight;  a 17th century puritan might
experience outrage at the thought of "God's creation" being altered;
a garbage collector from Podunk might experience boredom;  a voodoo
witch doctor might experience sheer terror at the sight of the moving
picture itself.  They are all human beings, they all possess the
faculty of reason, but their emotional reactions vary greatly
depending on the content of their minds (ie - on HOW they have used
their faculty of reason).

> Reason cannot impel anyone to action; only emotions can.

Emotions are the handmaiden of reason.  Reality permits no
contradictions, and the supposed "division" between reason and
emotion is as invalid as any other such metaphysical contradiction.

Chris J Delanoy


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

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From: rde@tavi.co.uk                                    11-Dec-99 23:47:23
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 21:20:14
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: rde@tavi.co.uk (Bob Eager)

On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 18:01:26, Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com> wrote:

> InnoVal is to be applauded for their continued devotion to
> OS/2, the OS/2 user and the OS/2 community at large.
> 
> You want to kill off OS/2?  Take a look at what you are
> personally doing to help do that today.

Here we go again. Go away Tim.

-- 
Bob Eager
rde at tavi.co.uk
PC Server 325; PS/2s 8595*3, 9595*3 (2*P60 + P90), 8535, 8570, 9556*2,
8580*6,
8557*2, 8550, 9577, 8530, P70, PC/AT..

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From: rde@tavi.co.uk                                    11-Dec-99 23:48:22
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 21:20:14
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: rde@tavi.co.uk (Bob Eager)

On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 19:22:23, isaacl@sonics.ece.ubc.ca (e-frog) wrote:

> That's about as classy an exit as you can get. You mean, you
> would actually want a quiet exit? Leave you hanging with no
> notice?

That's what happened with their newsreader.

-- 
Bob Eager
rde at tavi.co.uk
PC Server 325; PS/2s 8595*3, 9595*3 (2*P60 + P90), 8535, 8570, 9556*2,
8580*6,
8557*2, 8550, 9577, 8530, P70, PC/AT..

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From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net                            11-Dec-99 22:45:11
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 21:20:14
Subj: Re: Jury scheduled to hear Caldera vs. Microsoft next January

From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens)

Running interference again, I see?

On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 17:35:26, jglatt@spamgone-borg.com (Jeff Glatt) 
wrote:

> >>>Karel Jansens 
> >>>If you'd like to start a new thread, "Bob Germer is a redneck racist" or
> >>>suchlike, I'd gladly give my opinions and contribute to it.
> 
> >> Dubious.
>  
> >You don't *know* that. So why are you saying this?
> 
> Because he doubts your word based upon your history here. You simply
> have no credibility whatsoever as a person who is capable of being the
> least bit logically impartial, and in fact, you admit to being
> deliberately biased due merely to a boner for a particular pet
> product.
> 
> I'd say that Marty has good case to be skeptical of anything you say.
> Other people have expressed a similiar opinion, and I agree with them.
> 
I don't care what you think of my credibility, BTW, whom are you 
exactly speaking for?

And yes, I've never made it a secret that I'm biased towards OS/2. 
Hell, I use it and this is COOA. What did you expect?


> >Objectivity works both ways, Marty. You say: "I don't see many reasons
> >to believe Bob". I say: "I don't see many reasons not to believe Bob".
> 
> Of course you don't see many reasons not to believe Bob. That's
> because, in your blind love affair with your pet product, you
> willingly overlook the factual errors in Boob's stories that numerous
> other people, spanning a wide demographic of people, are pointing out,
> plus the fact that Boob's anecdotes always end up being perpetually
> embellished with new characters and "facts" that suddenly appear in a
> futile attempt to try to paper over the many inconsistencies and
> implausibilities in his stories.
> 
You let one regular "Bob" slip through there.
And of course he expanded the facts. He started out by giving a casual
example of how one of his clients came to OS/2 because of one of 
Windows's - let's say - "deficiencies". He didn't expect the Spanish 
Inquisition.

> All you see is a large banner unfurling over his head reading "OS/2
> Uber Alles", and while you're fervently saluting it, everything else
> has gone beyond your notice.
> 
Wow! An actual graphical image instead of just shouting that I'm a 
"fascistoid racist". I *am* rubbing off on you, aren't I?

> >it is quite irrelevant to my argumentation whether  Bob has been
> >describing a real case or just made it up. I have argued 
> >that the described cause of events is plausible
> 
> Oh, I see. Did I mention that I happen to know someone who got a
> really bad paper cut opening the CDROM of OS/2, and it got an
> infection and he died? OS/2 kills people. 
>
Nope. Infections from cuts kill people. The contents of the CD-ROM are
irrelevant to the case. Sounds familiar?

(Boy! If you're going to bury yourself with your own analogies (heh!),
there's just no fun in it anymore.)
 
> Of course, you have to believe it since there *have* been known cases
> where people get infections from cuts and die. The cause of events is
> plausible. It doesn't matter if I'm describing a real case or just
> made it up.
> 
Indeed it doesn't, Jeff.
(brought your own shovel as well, I see.)

> >that there are no 
> >significant inconsistencies which would make it improbable to have 
> >happened.
> 
> ....that *YOU* can see. Fortunately, numerous other people in this
> thread don't possess the same tunnel vision from a niche product that
> you do, and have otherwise reported factual errors with Boob's
> "anecdotes". This would include a much wider demographic of people
> than who have naively accepted his "story" without question (ie,
> basically, just an OS/2 zealot -- you).
> 
So we're back were we started all those months ago: argument by 
numbers. "If that many people say it's so, it has to be true".

And there's me thinking you'd have learned something by now.

> >> > To you I would have to say:
>  
> >> So why not just say it?
>  
> >Because that would be stupid!
> 
> It never bothered you to post lots of other stupid things to this
> newsgroup before, such as running interference for Ian "The Moron"
> Tholen. Why now?
> 
What interference? And why would that be stupid?

> >I'm not prepared to drop logic to make you happy.
> 
> You're also not prepared to deal with the factual errors in Boob's
> stories, as pointed out by numerous people. You'd rather spin
> "possible interpretations" to explain away inconsistencies with even
> more bogus conjecture than is already present in Boob's tall tales.
> And you do this simply because he's a fellow OS/2 zealot, in the same
> way that you have run interference for Tholen.
> 
Jeff, could you, for a change, _read_ my posts? I have given _a_ 
possible sound business reason why Bob would choose to "turn" his 
client to OS/2, rather than help him with the problems the client said
he had with IE5/Windows 98. All the so-called "inconsistencies" stem 
from people insisting that Bob should have installed IE5, which he 
hasn't. I don't care if he made it up or not. My point is: if it was 
(or were) a real situation, it would be good business to do what Bob 
did.

What really surprised me was that not one of you winvocates criticised
Bob's description of the behaviour of the Windows-minded consultant 
who apparently failed to help his client. I (were I a winvocate) would
have immediately claimed *that* to be an outright lie. It seems that 
even winvocates are aware of the apalling level of technical knowledge
in their camp.

> You mislabel your bogus conjecture, based upon no given facts
> whatsoever, as "logic". I'm not surprised to see such behavior from a
> Tholen fan.
> 
I hadn't expected anything else from you, Jeff.
> 
> >> You're presupposing that Bob did present a credible explanation for his
> >> installation of Warp on his client's PCs.
>  
> >Yes, he did.
> 
> That's because you're obviously unqualified to know about the
> installation of IE, and that's why you're totally ignorant of those
> factual errors in his "story" as reported by numerous people here.
> That you're ignorant is not your fault though. You just are.
> 
The installation procedure of IE is totally irrelevant to my 
argumentation, as I said numerous times before.

> On the other hand, your inept attempt to run interference for Boob,
> simply due to your bias over brand loyalty, in the face of the factual
> errors in his "story" and his lack of credibility, underscores how
> naive you are. I've said it before and I'll say it again: People think
> you're naive and clueless because of the things that you write in your
> posts.
> 
A circular ad hominem! That must be a first in this group.

> >Even if he lied his teeth out, the story still has an 
> >internal logic, and that's all that matters.
> 
> OS/2 kills people. It killed that guy who got a paper cut from it.
> 
Amazing how you even manage to put up your own grave stone after 
filling up the hole.

> That's all that matters, so that's all people need to know about OS/2.
> 
> >The only thing I 
> >can judge is internal consistency of postings on UseNet or comparison 
> >with facts that I know personally
> 
> And based upon your performance of such here, there is reason for
> people to dismiss you as naive and clueless. It's a deserved judgment
> against you.

Iudicat lector.

Karel Jansens
jansens_at_attglobal_dot_net
=======================================================
"The method employed I would gladly explain,
While I have it so clear in my head,
If I had but the time and you had but the brain -
But much yet remains to be said."

the Hunting of the Snark (Lewis Carroll)
=======================================================

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From: trosnau@telusplanet.net                           12-Dec-99 00:27:29
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 21:20:14
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Tim Rosnau <trosnau@telusplanet.net>

This is really intelligent coming from a guy who is in favor of
union busting.

"Steven C. Britton" wrote:
> 
> Only a fascist would try to harm another because they have a different
> opinion.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> What have YOU done to bust a union today?
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Work better: Work union-free.
> 
> Steven C. Britton
> Calgary
> 
> www.cadvision.com/sbritton

-- 
             *
             ^
            ^ ^       Have a cool Yule!
           ^ ^ ^
          ^ ^ ^ ^
         ^ ^ ^ ^ ^      Tim Rosnau
             |           Edmonton Alberta Canada

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From: cmulligan@hipcrime.vocab.org                      11-Dec-99 16:34:20
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 21:20:14
Subj: Re: Jury scheduled to hear Caldera vs. Microsoft next January

From: "Chad Mulligan" <cmulligan@hipcrime.vocab.org>


"Boob Gerbil" <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com> wrote in message
news:3851fb51$5$obot$mr2ice@news.pics.com...
> On <82sa6v$eq7$1@news.campuscwix.net>, on 12/10/99 at 05:44 PM,
>    "Asshole Mulligan" <cmulligan@hipcrime.vocab.org> said:
>
>
> > Are you referring to Domino Server?  That runs on NT, Linux and a couple
> > other OS's besides WarpServer.
>
> No, Asshole, I was referring to Warp Server for eBusiness, the latest
> version of Warp released within the past few months.

Please elaborate Mr Gerbil, the data I have, being in that business, say
that IBM's new eBusiness Server isn't necessarily based on OS/2.  Oh, and
please vary your normal practice and provide some citations to back up your
blathering.

>
> --
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------
> Boob Gerbil from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
> Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
> MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
> Aut Pax Aut Bellum
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------
>


--
Armageddon means never having to say you're sorry.


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From: cmulligan@hipcrime.vocab.org                      11-Dec-99 16:36:04
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 21:20:14
Subj: Re: Jury scheduled to hear Caldera vs. Microsoft next January

From: "Chad Mulligan" <cmulligan@hipcrime.vocab.org>


"void" <float@incandescent.firedrake.org> wrote in message
news:slrn8555b2.h5t.float@incandescent.firedrake.org...
> In article <3851fc76$7$obot$mr2ice@news.pics.com>, Bob Germer wrote:
> >On <J3a44.47089$zd.527112@news1.alsv1.occa.home.com>, on 12/10/99 at
04:42
> >PM,
> >   "Brent Davies" <brentdaviesNOSPAM@home.com> said:
> >
> >> I second that.  I've installed IE5 on every system in my network using
> >> "Client Software" CD from TechNet.  I launch setup and let it copy
> >> files.  When it wants a reboot, I say yes, then take the CD out of the
> >> drive and go to the next system.  There most definitely is some post-
> >> reboot configuration running in the background, but it does NOT require
> >> the installation path to be present.  I know this because I am off at
> >> another workstation with my CD running setup while the post-
> >> reboot config is taking place on the last workstation, without the CD
in
> >> the drive.  It never asks for the CD again.
> >
> >Well, this is absolutely immaterial. I am using the CD provided by MS not
> >whatever you are using. Typical of a MS whore trying to paint shit white.
>
> TechNet is MS.  Let me go get my crowbar, your foot can't be comfortable
> there.


ROTFLOL

>
> --
>  Ben
>
> [X] YES! I'm a brain-damaged lemur on crack, and I'd like to
>     order your software package for $459.95!


--
Armageddon means never having to say you're sorry.


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From: larso@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca                         12-Dec-99 00:34:10
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 21:20:14
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: White Thunder <larso@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>

"Wolf Kirchmeir" <greywolf@onlink.net> wrote:
> On 11 Dec 1999 21:07:36 GMT, Lars P Ormberg wrote:

> =>I'm not misreading.  Bob's attempt to "blame" the extra cost on
> =>Michelin wasn't valid.
>
> Bob's arithmetic was (prices for argument's sake only)
>
> Jeep with Michelin tires = $25,000, of which $300 is for tires Bob
> doesn't want.
>
> Range Rover with other tires = $30,000, of which $300 (more or less)
> is for tires he does want.

How is the $300 for tires he wants?  It isn't.  The $5,000 is for the
extra cost of the Range Rover.  Again, you are trying to make it seem
like Michelin is reponsible for making Range Rovers $5,000 more...or
$300 more.  And NEITHER is the case.

> So to get the tires he does want, he has to pay about $5,000 more

No, he's paying $5,000 more because he's getting a different product.

> There's another alternative, buy the Jeep, junk the tires, and
> replace them.  Cheaper, but still involving wasted money.

I guess if its that big a deal, AND if there are only these two choices
available in all the universe, that's what he'll do.

> A customer should not be put in this position.

If you and other customers believe it that much, customers will not be
put in that position.  Because none of you will support the business
until it removes this position.

> Customers wishes must take precedence over business's desires.

Forcing businesses to do something they don't want to do isn't
desirable in any way, shape, or form.

Your a Weibo Ludwig waiting to happen.  You don't believe that the
right to property extends beyond yourself.

NOBODY has the right to buy what they wish.  They only have the right
to buy that which others wish to sell them.

What you want is for the business (and by extension, anybody in the
world selling something) to become a servent: there to take orders as
given to them from the person wishing to buy.

Again, what you want is for consumers to control other people's
property, at the expense of the rights of those who currently own (and
by happenstance would be interested in selling) it.

> Always excepting the customer's wish to pay too little for the
> product. I reiterate: business is a relationship, with
> mutual but not symmetrical responsibilities.)

This notion of yours of consumers having rights that businesses do not
is a slap in the face of any notion of equity or freedom.  Your demand
that a company provide a product while not having the right to set the
terms of sale is horrific at best.

> And just because I put that last remark in brackets doesn't mean it's
> parenthetical. It's essential to the argument. If you can't accept it
> as a moral truth, there's no point talking to you anymore.

Well, I don't accept the loss of control on the part of a business as
anything approaching "moral", so then by all means go piss up a rope
and inhale the steam.

> You continually talk as if no one had any responsibilities to anyone.

If a business has responsibility to the buyer, does the buyer similarly
have the same responsibilities to the business?

In that case, you are hereby REQUIRED to go off and purchase 3
Microsoft products at the price listed on the box.  You are failing to
live up to your responsibility to provide Microsoft employees with
money that they need.

If you find it insane that you should HAVE to buy something from
somebody, how can you turn around and say that they HAVE to sell
something to you?

--
Lars Ormberg
larso@ualberta.ca
http://go.to/larso/

"In the Sahara sun I wanna be the one that's gonna come and take you,
make you"


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

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From: dboultr@spamfree.erols.com                        12-Dec-99 00:49:05
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 21:20:14
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: dboultr@spamfree.erols.com

On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 23:48:45, rde@tavi.co.uk (Bob Eager) wrote:

> That's what happened with their newsreader.

Geez, Bob!  What's this all about??  They knew their newsreader was a 
piece of crap, pretty much beyond saving.  There were at the time, and
have been subsequently, a ton of newsreader choices for OS/2 users.  
We didn't loose anything when they gave up that market.

I haven't looked at MR2/ICE 2.0 yet, but PostRoad Mailer is still 
arguably the best mail reader we have.  I paid for it once, long long 
ago, and I've gotten two major releases for free.  I still use PRM and
am happy with it.  I'm pretty sure I got the newsreader for free too. 

I'll agree with Dan that his customer support for individual users 
wasn't the greatest, but I don't recall having occasion to use it 
since 2.0 came out.  On the other hand, Dan and Innoval tried to do 
good things for OS/2 and several of the results are first class.  
NetExtra was a fine product for its time.  But ultimately, when fine 
products don't pay the bills, you have to do what you have to do.

Innoval doesn't make my OS/2 Hall of Shame.  I wish them well, and 
would buy their software again should the occasion arise.

Doug Boulter

To reply by e-mail, remove the obvious spam traps from the address

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From: michel@rua.net                                    12-Dec-99 00:56:18
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 21:20:14
Subj: Re: Oops, my fault

From: michel@rua.net

On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 20:38:34, "Kelly Robinson, the Xth Doctor" 
<ispy@groovyshow.com> wrote:

> Just saying that I lacked the stupidity to remain here doesn't mean I
> can't bitch about you dingbats somewhere else.
> 
> After all, it was one of y'all which said us Windows Advocates seem to
> spend more time in the OS/2 forum than anywhere else.
> 
> So don't blame me if I'm trying to beat dead horses on the race track,
> okay?  OS/2, in the real world, is dead and quite mundane - which is why
> the "windows advocates", as you mislabel us, hang around your
> newsgroup.  Duh.  Do you get it now?
> 
> :-)
> 
> --
> 
> -=-
> 
> If I am not me, then who am I?
> Don't ask me, I just live here.
> 
> 

Kelly,

I do not mind. I do not own this ? nor does anyone else. However I 
think what you are doing is what I call
'sport fishing' , and you always have a bunch of hungry bass lurking 
under the lily pads of this news group. hell, they'll hit about 
anything

I am curious though. Are you female or masquerading as such ?


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From: larso@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca                         12-Dec-99 00:46:11
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 21:20:14
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: White Thunder <larso@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>

"Wolf Kirchmeir" <greywolf@onlink.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 10:27:10 -0700, Steven C. Britton wrote:

> =>If people wish to enter into exclusive contracts with a certain
> =>supplier (because that supplier makes it favorable for them to do
> =>so) it is perfectly ethical.
>
> That depends on whether the buyer is the end user of the product, or a
> distributor.

A company should not be forced by the government to not make dealings
with a class of customer called 'distributer' that they could make with
a different class called 'end user'.

> Distributors must cater to those customers who (might) want some
> other makers' products. If they don't, the consequence might well be
> that those other makers go out of business

The consequence of Makers M1, M2, M3, etc. are of no concern of our
friend the distributor, any more than that of customers C1, C2, C3, etc.

So do distributors care about what happens to makers and customers?  Of
course, in a fashion.  Without makers the distributor will have nothing
to sell, and without customers the distributor will have nobody to sell
it to, correct?

But this is still the distributor only caring about itself!  If Maker
M42 wasn't doing anything useful for the distributor, it wouldn't care
if M42 went out of business, any more than it would care if C44532
suddenly lost his job and could no longer afford their products.

You are trying to equate meanings in a wide-ranging fashion that is not
applicable.  That a distributor needs somebody to sell to and somebody
to buy from does NOT relate to the distributor "needing" to cater to
any given customer or maker.

> not because their product was poorer value, but because their
> potential customers couldn't access them

Distributors aren't in the business of insuring that any maker's
product is accessed by any consumer.  They are in the business of
providing access to a product for a customer.

> In that case, the exclusive contract between maker and distributor
> has the effect of limiting competition

Only within the realm of their own store!

Nobody, and I mean _nobody_, should be able to force them to, within
their own store, provide as much competition as some third party (be it
you or some worthless bureaucrat) dictates.

> =>If 100% of automation distributors want to sell Allen Bradley,
> =>there is nothing morally wrong with it.
>
> Oh yes there is. That would eliminate customers' ability to choose.

Within that store, sure.

But the owner of the store can provide whatever range of choices he
chooses.

--
Lars Ormberg
larso@ualberta.ca
http://go.to/larso/

"We'll go around the world in a day. Don't say no, no shake it may way"


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

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From: tholenAntiSpam@hawaii.edu                         12-Dec-99 01:46:02
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 02:24:02
Subj: Re: Navigator 4.7 is available!! OS/2 is behind again!!

From: tholenAntiSpam@hawaii.edu

Lucien writes:

>>> ] #1:  It rained today.
>>> ]
>>> ] #2:  It rained today until sunset.
>>> ]
>>> ] The question:  did it rain all of the day or only some of the day?
>>> ]
>>> ] The word "rained", by itself, doesn't indicate duration, therefore
>>>
>>> It is more precise to state that duration is not indicated in this
>>> sentence.

>> Irrelevant, Lucien.

> Wrong. Your analysis is confused and requires the clarification I
> provided.

I see that you completely deleted my explanation for why your statement
is irrelevant.  I'm not surprised, given that you can't counter it.
All you can do is pontificate that it is wrong and confused.

>>> ] one cannot determine an unambiguous answer to the question in the
>>> ] absence of other information.
>>>
>>> Absolutely correct.

>> With regard to sentence #1, Lucien,

> Right.

Glad you agree, Lucien.

>> not with regard to sentence #2.

> Right.

Glad you agree, Lucien.

>> The JDK sentence corresponds to sentence #2.

> Wrong.

Yet another example of your pontification.  Note the complete absence
of any explanation for why my statement is allegedly wrong.  It isn't,
because the JDK sentence provides additional information, just like
sentence #2.

>> Try to prove otherwise, if you think you can.

> Here is the JDK sentence

> 1) "OS/2 Java 1.1.8 implements Java 1.2 functionality. Bummer, bummer"

Pay particular attention to the additional information provided by the
reference to Java 1.1.8, Lucien.

> Here is Dave Tholen's response to Mike Timbol in that article:

How does my response to Timbol affect whether Joseph's statement has
additional information or not, Lucien?

> [...]

I'm not surprised.

> Here is Dave's later statement concerning 'implements'

How does my statement concerning "implements" affect whether Joseph's
statement has additional information or not, Lucien?

> (the verb in the JDK sentence):

Irrelevant, Lucien.  My statement concerning "implements" was made
independently of the JDK sentence.

> Note the absence of any quantifiers in the JDK sentence

Incorrect, Lucien, given the presence of the additional information
provided by the reference to Java 1.1.8; if "all" functionality of
Java 1.2 had been implemented, then logically IBM would not have
called it 1.1.8.

> (#1).

Incorrect, Lucien, given that the additional information provided
by the reference to Java 1.1.8 makes the JDK sentence correspond
to example sentence #2.

> Note Dave's auxiliary statement (#2), crucially affirming and
> clarifying an ambiguity WRT quantification in that sentence.

Note Joseph's reference to Java 1.1.8, crucially affirming and
clarifying an ambiguity with respect to quantification in that
sentence by the very fact that IBM didn't call the JDK "1.2",
thus one can logically conclude that "all" Java 1.2 functionality
was *not* implemented.

> Note Dave's other statement (#3),

That statement is a part of a test that corresponds to the "prevent
costly mistakes" issue, Lucien.

> further refining the predication of 'implements' WRT quantification
> such that agreement is reached with my thesis statement

Statement #3 doesn't even correspond to the JDK sentence, Lucien.
Having trouble comprehending the fact that the second test corresponds
to the "prevent costly mistakes" isuee?

> (this also ties statement #3 to the JDK sentence).

Incorrect, Lucien, given that statement #3 lacks the additional
information provided by Joseph's reference to Java 1.1.8.

> Clearly, in a fashion congruent with the "rained" and "costly mistakes"
> situations, the JDK sentence is ambiguous WRT quantification,

Clearly, in a fashion congruent with example sentence #2, the JDK sentence
is not ambiguous with respect to the "all" or "some" quantification,
because if "all" was intended, IBM would have called the JDK "1.2" instead
of "1.1.8".

> in the absence of other sentential information -

There is no absence of other "sentential" information, Lucien.  Think
about why IBM still called the JDK "1.1.8" instead of "1.2".

> this analysis enjoys the evidentiary support of Dave's own statements.

Incorrect, Lucien; your analysis ignores many of my own statements.

> Here is my thesis:
>
> The "costly mistakes" and "implements functionality" situations are
> ambiguous WRT quantification in the absence of peri-verbal information.

Too bad your thesis is irrelevant to both situations, Lucien, because
the "costly mistakes" situation involves the presence of information
provided by the definition of "prevent", a word that you continue to
ignore (because it destroys your thesis), and because the "implements
functionality" situation involves the presence of information provided
by IBM's use of "1.1.8" instead of "1.2", another fact that you continue
to ignore (because it destroys your thesis).
 
> Note the agreement between my thesis and Dave's statements.

What alleged agreement, Lucien?  Still suffering from reading
comprehension problems?

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From: rde@tavi.co.uk                                    12-Dec-99 01:58:03
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 02:24:02
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: rde@tavi.co.uk (Bob Eager)

On Sun, 12 Dec 1999 00:49:11, dboultr@spamfree.erols.com wrote:

> > That's what happened with their newsreader.
> 
> Geez, Bob!  What's this all about??  They knew their newsreader was a 
> piece of crap, pretty much beyond saving.  There were at the time, and
> have been subsequently, a ton of newsreader choices for OS/2 users.  
> We didn't loose anything when they gave up that market.

I quite agree. But I was just answering the point made. I used it. I 
stopped using it when I got no reply to my support requests. It wasn't
good and they were right to drop it. But I NEVER (as this was my 
point) received anything to say they were doing it....as I say, it WAS
done quietly. And I paid full price for it. No regrets...I had some 
use out of it.

As far as the mailers go....I made the original post because someone 
asked why someone else was hostile about Innoval. I put forward a 
reason.

I like Post Road Mailer. I bought 2.0. I bought the upgrade to 2.5. I 
bought the upgrade to 3.0. I heard about enough early bugs in JSM to 
stop me upgrading to that. And problems with Java at the time, to be 
fair.

The problem for me wa support. In the early days I got a good response
and even a feature I wanted, in some form. But I reported a bug early 
in the life of 2.5 (a violation of SMTP and POP3, both). I never even 
got a response. It was never fixed. Not polite. Even an email saying 
they hadn't the resources would have been OK. I really appreciate 
their problems.

I bought NetExtra too. And the upgrades. All of them. Despite the 
silly name of WWWatch (does it have the same connotations in the US?).
I couldn't have supported Innoval more, without a charitable donation!

I think it's a shame the product line died. I have their products on 
my website to keep them alive. Amd a workround I did for the protocol 
bugs. I only wish they could have given Paul van Keep the source to 
JSM, to save him time.

-- 
Bob Eager
rde at tavi.co.uk
PC Server 325; PS/2s 8595*3, 9595*3 (2*P60 + P90), 8535, 8570, 9556*2,
8580*6,
8557*2, 8550, 9577, 8530, P70, PC/AT..

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From: siberREMOVETHIS@sympatico.ca                      12-Dec-99 02:11:21
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 02:24:03
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: siberREMOVETHIS@sympatico.ca (E. Barry Bruyea)

On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 15:05:05 -0500, Joseph <josco@ibm.net> wrote:

>
>
>"E. Barry Bruyea" wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 16:05:39 GMT, Chris J Delanoy
>> <cdelanoy@ualberta.ca> wrote:
>>
>> > Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> You and a handful of others here are the only irrational beings
>> >> here.
>> >
>> >Irrationality is the act of saying - and believing - that companies
>> >can simultaneously charge prices that are above AND below market
>> >prices.  Irrationality is the act of saying - and believing - that
>> >you are being forced against your will to use a product, while at
>> >the same time you declare at the bottom of every message you post
>> >that you do NOT use that product.
>>
>> It's the Bill Clinton approach.
>
>And of Bill Gates.


Bill Gates isn't pissing on your leg and then telling you it's
raining, but Clinton gets a blow job and says it isn't sex.
>

EBB

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From: josco@ibm.net                                     11-Dec-99 18:51:19
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 02:24:03
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net>


"E. Barry Bruyea" wrote:

> On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 15:05:05 -0500, Joseph <josco@ibm.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >"E. Barry Bruyea" wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 16:05:39 GMT, Chris J Delanoy
> >> <cdelanoy@ualberta.ca> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> You and a handful of others here are the only irrational beings
> >> >> here.
> >> >
> >> >Irrationality is the act of saying - and believing - that companies
> >> >can simultaneously charge prices that are above AND below market
> >> >prices.  Irrationality is the act of saying - and believing - that
> >> >you are being forced against your will to use a product, while at
> >> >the same time you declare at the bottom of every message you post
> >> >that you do NOT use that product.
> >>
> >> It's the Bill Clinton approach.
> >
> >And of Bill Gates.
>
> Bill Gates isn't pissing on your leg and then telling you it's
> raining, but Clinton gets a blow job and says it isn't sex.

No one has pissed on my leg -- I'm confused by your baby talk  metaphors.

Gates has bickered over the meaning of common words while underoath.  He's
professed to not understanding e-mails he has written and not understood
those to which he replied.  He insists MS is not  a monopoly and there is
no PC market.  Sick isn't it !


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From: larso@commodore.                                  12-Dec-99 02:49:01
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 02:24:03
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg)

As I stepped out onto the Stoop, I saw Wolf Kirchmeir write:
> On 11 Dec 1999 05:32:31 GMT, Lars P Ormberg wrote:
> 
> =>Harming _you_ by only selling you the product you wanted under a condition
> =>you didn't want.  If you are so upset by it, then don't get it.  If you
want
> =>the Learjet that bad, I guess you have to pay the price they want.  Its
> =>their right to set the price they are willing to sell for.  Price happens
to
> =>be on a block of property that is "all or nothing" then you'll either buy
> =>all or nothing.  Capice?
> 
> I'm not complaining about the price of the Learjet. Not at all. I want it!
> I'm willing to pay for it! I came to Learjet with the cheque in my hot
little
> hand, all ready to deal! Or did you miss that part of my post?

No, I got it.

> I'm not willing to pay for the other plane, that's all.

Then you're not gonna get your jet.

> Why should I?

Because that was a condition of sale.  You have to agree to a seller's
conditions of sale, same as the seller has to agree to your conditions of
sale, and if either of you doesn't like the conditions being asked by the
other, you don't have to agree to the sale.  Go home.

>                                                                       And
why
> should it be considered moral for a company to try to unload something on me
> by tieing it to the product that I want to buy from them?

Because they have the right to do with their product as they wish.  If they
will only sell a jet with a helicopter, then THEY WILL ONLY SELL A JET WITH
A HELICOPTER.  You have no right to force them to sell you something
unilaterally under terms you agree with and they don't.  Likewise, they
can't force you to buy something unilaterally either.  That's why true
monopolies, government-created ones, are so evil.

> Seems to me you like the idea of the power to force people to buy
> all-or-nothing.

It's not force!  How dense do you have to be.  They offer you a choice.  You
take it, one way or the other.

Say we do the reverse: you want the Learjet for $2 million and want them to
throw in the helicopter for fifty thousand more.  They don't want to sell
you the helicopter.  If this is the only way you'll buy the Learjet, they
just won't sell it I guess.  Of course, you're clearly "forcing" them to
sell it, and they can take you to court, I suppose.  After all, it's very
immoral of you to not buy their Learjet as is for the price they ask.

>                  That makes you not only a fool, but a first-rate prick as
> well. Sorry, I misspoke myself. A thrid-rate prick.

Well, that's about the level of intelligent debate I expected from an
absolute moron such as yourself.

> Business is a relationship between supplier and customer. A business is not
> an entity unto itself. It needs customers, and therefore has
responsibilities
> towards them.

And if they don't meet those responsibilities, then the market will punish
them.  Your cries for Big Daddy Government are pathetic snivelling at best.

>               The customer has a responsibility to the business, too -- to
> pay a fair price

A fair price in a market is set by the complex interweavings of needs of
business and consumer.  If the price isn't fair, you don't buy it (either
because you wouldn't pay it or the business wouldn't sell at that price).

>                      (else the business can't stay in business, etc. You can
> figure out the rest of the argument yourself. No, on 2nd thought, you can't

A fucking eight year old could figure it out.  Too much older than that, the
kid will realize its a load of crap.

> Your problem is that you think property rights are the only rights.

They are the fundamental basis of any other right.

-- 
Lars P. Ormberg     ICQ#:8827066
mailto:larso@ualberta.ca
The University of Lars:   http://www.ualberta.ca/~larso/

"The way you're bathed in light, reminds me of that night
God laid me down into your rose garden of trust and I was
swept away with nothin' left to say some helpless fool
yeah I was lost in a swoon of peace you're all I need to
find so when the time is right come to me sweetly, come
to me come to me..love will lead us, alright.  love will
lead us, she will lead us.  can you hear the dolphin's
cry?  see the road rise up to meet us its in the air we
breathe tonight love will lead us, she will lead us"
                            -Live, "The Dolphin's Cry"

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From: larso@commodore.                                  12-Dec-99 03:31:12
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 02:24:03
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg)

As I stepped out onto the Stoop, I saw Joseph write:
> Lars P Ormberg wrote:

> > > A business is a property.
> >
> > Yes.  And its not yours the consumer's property.
> 
> No doubt.
> But I have a business and your business is hurting mine.  My god - how do we
> resolve that problem if property rights are so absolute?

It's pretty easy.

How is my business hurting yours?  By being more successful?  In that case,
you either get better or die.

> > In the case of anti-trust, I've been recognizing the invalidity OF THE LAW
> > repeatedly.
> 
> No Sir.
> You deny the concept of monopoly and monopoly power. 

I deny Microsoft as an example of a monopoly.

And as a result, I attack the stupid anti-trust law that rules it such.

> Your examples equate a small company's market power with a monopoly's power.

I equate the right of a company to act, without deciding that a large
company is denied a right that a small one is not denied.

> You have NOT accepted the idea of monopoly power.  That's a corrupt
argument.
> MS has acquired monopoly power and you deny it has any.

I deny that MS has monopoly power, because you would assumably have to be a
monopoly to have monopoly power.  Microsoft is not a monopoly.

> > Monopoly power requires a monopoly.  Microsoft isn't a monopoly.
> 
> Poor boy.  You have to argue against the law - not that the law is not valid
> to MS.  MS is called a monopoly under the law. 

Yes.  But Microsoft is not a monopoly.  When a law calls a non-monopoly a
monopoly, it is clearly the law which is severely at fault.

> If the argument is that MS is not a monopoly then the laws still stand.

No, because the laws refer to businesses like Microsoft.  Actual monopolies
are still protected, seeing as how governments themselves protect them.

> > Measuring the monopoly powers of Microsoft is like measuring the number of
> > guns on the head of a pin.  There are none.
> 
> Guns exist and are powerful but legal to own.   That is the defense of gun
> ownership.  No-one denies their power or quibbles over their definition of a
> gun least they become incredible and foolish.

When somebody is irrationally claiming that a pen is a gun, then the
definition of one becomes important.

Anti-trust law declares that a pen is a gun, in other words.  And that is
purely wrong.

> Monopolies exist and are powerful.

How true.  Health service, cable service, mail service...very very horrible
evils.  And so very different than Microsoft.

> Deny they exist and deny MS is a monopoly and you become incredible and
> foolish.

Microsoft has competitors.  Makes it hard to be a monopoly already, doesn't
it?


-- 
Lars P. Ormberg     ICQ#:8827066
mailto:larso@ualberta.ca
The University of Lars:   http://www.ualberta.ca/~larso/

"The way you're bathed in light, reminds me of that night
God laid me down into your rose garden of trust and I was
swept away with nothin' left to say some helpless fool
yeah I was lost in a swoon of peace you're all I need to
find so when the time is right come to me sweetly, come
to me come to me..love will lead us, alright.  love will
lead us, she will lead us.  can you hear the dolphin's
cry?  see the road rise up to meet us its in the air we
breathe tonight love will lead us, she will lead us"
                            -Live, "The Dolphin's Cry"

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: larso@commodore.                                  12-Dec-99 03:40:29
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 02:24:03
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg)

As I stepped out onto the Stoop, I saw Forrest Gehrke write:
> Lars P Ormberg wrote:

> > Oh, Canada has this lunacy too.  Even more powerful than the antitrust
laws
> > in the U.S.  Propane companies are unable to merge for "the public good",
> > and the law explicitly states that a lack of evidence is no hindrance on
> > successful prosecution.
> 
> Thank you for finally responding. I was sure the Canadian
> government would not subscribe to the lunacy of your
> point of view, though they do emulate it very well
> for the medical discipline.

In Health Care, Canada runs a monopoly.  A _real_ monopoly.

Try to get Health Care outside the government company, you are sent to jail.
Try to provide Health Care outside the government, you are sent to jail.

Compare that with when you try to sell an operating system competing with
Microsoft...and you don't go to jail.

> > > Please look into it and report back what that law has
> > > to say about predatory pricing.
> > 
> > Oh, you mean the laws stating that any business practise is illegal?
> > 
> Of course: that's what antitrust laws usually do.

Oh, joy.

You don't find _anything_ wrong with that?



-- 
Lars P. Ormberg     ICQ#:8827066
mailto:larso@ualberta.ca
The University of Lars:   http://www.ualberta.ca/~larso/

"The way you're bathed in light, reminds me of that night
God laid me down into your rose garden of trust and I was
swept away with nothin' left to say some helpless fool
yeah I was lost in a swoon of peace you're all I need to
find so when the time is right come to me sweetly, come
to me come to me..love will lead us, alright.  love will
lead us, she will lead us.  can you hear the dolphin's
cry?  see the road rise up to meet us its in the air we
breathe tonight love will lead us, she will lead us"
                            -Live, "The Dolphin's Cry"

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: hunters@sapphire.indstate.edu                     12-Dec-99 04:28:08
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 02:24:03
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: hunters@sapphire.indstate.edu

In article <385292A6.B3969AE6@WarpCity.com>,
  OS2Guy@WarpCity.com wrote:

> Unless it feeds your OS/2 pocket directly, right Steve?
> You know like where to find that elusive OS/2 fix or
> OS/2 great deal?

LOL! I certainly don't need *you* for that! I used OS/2 for 3 years
before ever reading a single newsgroup...

> If I provide information or news you want then you can't
> applaud me enough but if it isn't something to you like
> to hear then you want to kill the messenger.

Hardly... Since your memory is faulty, I'll have to remind you that
I've rarely responded positively to any of your posts...

> It is too bad you miss all the other good news and
> information Warp City offers its members.

And this is precisely why I say not to do us any "favors". You aren't
here to help OS/2 users, you're just fishing for compliments.

And if this isn't true, then the post to which I am replying would
never had been made.

--
-Steven Hunter                *OS/2 Warp 4 * |But on the other hand...|
hunters@sapphire.indstate.edu *AMD K6-2 400* |There's 5 more fingers. |


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: leea@psynet.net                                   11-Dec-99 20:58:27
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 02:24:03
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: Lee Aroner  <leea@psynet.net>

Dan:

Appreciate the effort. However, when I called to size up the 
offer I found the following:

(1) As you said, sounds like windows support, and rather naive 
at that. What the hey, I don't need or want support anyways.

(2) The TS with the teenage sounding voice that answered 
didn't have any idea what their servers run on. I prefer Nix 
of some sort, Linux is fine, but I need to know. I won't 
support an ISP that runs NT.

(3) The TS also didn't know who their backbone supplier was, 
but after a couple minutes checking, figured out it was UUNet. 
That part's fine.

(4) The TS did not have, or pretended not to know what the 800 
number was. If I can't test for connection speed, I'm not 
interested in signing up. I get 49333 connects every time 
where I'm at now, and I won't switch to an unknown without 
some random test connects.

If you do want to make some money off this deal, get them to 
give out the 800 number for connects, and find out what they 
serve mail and pages from. Gotta know those two...

LRA

------------------------
  From: innoval@ibm.net
  Subject: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!
  Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 16:35:30 GMT 
  To: "comp.os.os2.advocacy" 
<@news:comp.os.os2.advocacy@192.168.16.2>, "comp.os.os2.apps" 
<@news:comp.os.os2.apps@192.168.16.2>, "comp.os.os2.comm" 
<@news:comp.os.os2.comm@192.168.16.2>, 
"comp.os.os2.marketplace" 
<@news:comp.os.os2.marketplace@192.168.16.2>


> In article <zterrarrkvfarg.fmk8te0.pminews@news.exis.net>,
>   "Michael K Greene" <mgreene@hotbot.com> wrote:
> > On Fri, 10 Dec 1999 17:32:00 -0800, Tim Martin wrote:
> > Any other company would get a "great!!!", but let's look 
at who you
> > are talking about - Innoval????
> 
> Okay. Let's get some facts straight before this goes to far 
off topic.
> 
> AFST is actually offering ISP800 to OS/2 users, not InnoVal. Read the
> details and the FAQ at isp800.com/os2/. I, Dan Porter, sought and
> engineered the deal for OS/2 users. Anyone else (any supporter and user
> of OS/2 like myself) could have done it just as easily. InnoVal may have
> withdrawn from the OS/2 software market, but InnoVal still has OS/2
> users and supporters, and the company does recognize that OS/2 users
> WERE important to us and ARE important to us.
> 
> I, personally, and InnoVal, have a vested interest in AFST. When AFST
> closes a big multi-user deal (and they have closed some very big deals)
> I and InnoVal earn something for our efforts. I would be surprised if
> OS/2 users as a group (oh, I wish it could be so) will be a big enough
> deal to earn us anything -- certainly not at the prices being offered to
> OS/2 users. It was just something that I wanted to do.
> 
> I've seen what AFST brings to the table with 65 tech support people (all
> trained unfortunately in Windows stuff), 800 re-routed access, high
> bandwidth, high capacity email, etc. It's a good deal, even if you don't
> like InnoVal. All InnoVal did was try to bring you a good price when
> AFST launches public consumer service under the ISP800 brand.
> 
> I was the one who pulled the plug on InnoVal's direct involvement with
> OS/2 software. It was a financial thing that investors get concerned
> about. Add to that, that as a company, we were not good enough with
> support in the consumer marketplace. I thought we could be, but I was
> mistaken. The market wasn't there anymore. So blame me. Not InnoVal.
> 
> InnoVal, BTW, is lobbying for OS/2 solutions, support, etc. with AFST
> and its business partners and vendors. We are not doing so because we
> are emotionally attached to OS/2 but because, in some areas, it makes
> good business sense.
> 
> ISP800 makes good business sense. I feel good that we (all of us who
> want to be a part of this) are, in a small way, involving two new
> vendors (AFST and National Dialup) in the OS/2 world.
> 
> Dan Porter, President
> InnoVal Systems Solutions, Inc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
> 

---------------End of Original Message-----------------

--------------------------------------------------------
Name: Lee Aroner
E-mail: Lee Aroner <leea@nospm.psynet.net>

(Please remove "nospm." to reply...)

Date: 12/11/1999
Time: 20:58:54

 _,_ /|
 \`o.O' ACK!
 =(___)=
    U

--------------------------------------------------------

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: fake@forgitaboutit.com                            12-Dec-99 05:29:07
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 02:36:09
Subj: Re: When will it be 100% done?

From: David H. McCoy <fake@forgitaboutit.com>

In article <3852D25F.C2686D5C@stny.rr.com>, mamodeo@stny.rr.com says...
>> But the truth has no impact on sociopaths like you.
>
>How ironic, coming from the sociopath who said:
>"Since you are a Canuck, your opinoin is worth less than garbage."
>"Typical conduct of an Arab terrorist. You can't win a rational argument so
you
>attempt to blow others up."
>

He equated me to a drunken Irishmen because my last name is McCoy. When I 
informed him that I was black, he then went after that.

I'm sure no one ever accused Bob of being bright, open-minded, or tolerent. 

What I find disturbing is despite his rather public bigotry, most OS/2 users 
side with him anyway.

That's sad.
-- 
---------------------------------------
David H. McCoy
dmccoy@EXTRACT_THIS_mnsinc.com
---------------------------------------

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mktorg@hotmail.com                                12-Dec-99 14:45:03
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 02:36:09
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Bob Davies <mktorg@hotmail.com>


Chris J Delanoy wrote:
> Emotions are the handmaiden of reason.  Reality permits no
> contradictions, and the supposed "division" between reason and
> emotion is as invalid as any other such metaphysical contradiction.
> 
> Chris J Delanoy

OH!

 
-- 
Bob Davies

Socialism is about the equal distribution of poverty!
Learn about Socialism - everyone needs a laugh!
http://www.worldsocialism.org/

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenAntiSpam@hawaii.edu                         12-Dec-99 06:53:00
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 02:36:09
Subj: Re: Bass digest, volume 2451525

From: tholenAntiSpam@hawaii.edu

Well, at least the digest prevented any new postings from Bass in the
Navigator 4.7 sub-thread.  Here's today's digest:

1> . . . a lot of nonsense,

What alleged "nonsense", Curtis?

1> including continued whining

What alleged "whining", Curtis?

1> over alleged punctuation errors

On what basis do you call it "alleged", Curtis?  You even admitted to
that fault.

1> and my use of certain words.

Which words might those be, Curtis?

1> Dave claims his mission to be "countering misinformation."

Such as Timbol's "bullshit" claim in response to Joseph, who was
correctly noting that OS/2 Java 1.1.8 implements Java 1.2
functionality.  Look for references to security12 in the secma.zip
file for evidence of that functionality.

1> All he's really doing is nitpicking over punctuation, word choice,
1> phrasing,

Yet another blatant lie.  I see you completely ignored the fact that
I've been countering Timbol's misinformation, as identified above.

1> while blithely ignoring his own misinformation.

Where have I allegedly ignored my own misinformation, Curtis?

1> As Dave has displayed spelling and puntuation errors, this indicates
1> another level of his hypocrisy.

In what way is it hypocrisy, Curtis?  You apparently don't even know
what hypocrisy is, given that you don't view your own continuation of
postings in the Navigator 4.7 sub-thread as hypocrisy.

2> Yup, Dave's hypocrisy is limitless.

What alleged hypocrisy, Curtis?  That's rather ironic, coming from the
person who continued posting in a sub-thread after claiming that a
posting made weeks ago would be his last in that sub-thread.

2> I guess it's another example of Tholen's pontification.

What you guess is irrelevant, Curtis.  Proving the alleged pontification
would be relevant.

2> LOL!

Typical.  When you can't support your argument, start making fun of the
other person.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenAntiSpam@hawaii.edu                         12-Dec-99 06:53:26
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 02:36:09
Subj: Re: Amodeo digest, volume 2451525

From: tholenAntiSpam@hawaii.edu

Marty is becoming more like Jeff Glatt every day.  He can't tolerate
anyone who holds a different view of me than he does, as evidenced
by his response to Karel Jansens.  Here's today's digest:

1> Before you answer that, realize that you are about to make a
1> statement about Tholen's credibility,

Trying to predict the future, Marty?

1> who himself has been intimately involved in all of these threads
1> you mention in the same capacities as the other participants.

Exactly what do you mean by the "same capacities"?  Timbol was
spreading misinformation by calling Joseph's statement about OS/2
Java 1.1.8 "bullshit"; I corrected that misinformation.  Timbol
tried to support his claim by pointing to classes.zip; I corrected
that misinformation by pointing to secma.zip.

1> Yes, we've seen your responses to and about Tholen.

So what, Marty?  Is there something wrong with his responses?
Once again, you're ignoring cause and effect.  Yes, my exchanges
with Karel have been different from my exchanges with you and
several others.  You seem to think that I'm the difference, when
in reality, it's you and several others that are the difference.
Karel hasn't resorted to personal attacks the way you and several
others have.  There's a lesson in there for you.

1> I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you are more concerned
1> about what you refer to as "logic" than the truth.  Tholen
1> has taught you well, grasshopper.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you would pontificate over
what you consider the truth.  I guess I shouldn't be surprised
that you would lie about me allegedly teaching Karel to show less
concern for the truth.

1> Coming from the person running interference for Tholen and Bob,
1> it certainly is.

Yet another unsubstantiated claim.

1> And you expect considerably less from your "buddies", Tholen
1> and Germer.

On what basis do you claim that I am his "buddy", Marty?  You're
as bad as Jeff Glatt, automatically assuming that anyone who
doesn't agree with your position about me must be a "buddy" of
mine.

2> So hence, we've established a pattern for what Tholen does when
2> he sees no other way out of a losing argument.

What alleged losing argument, Marty?

2> 1] Create a phrase which he can use as a banner under which to
2>    place all of his adversary's postings, such as "infantile game"
2>    or "emulation mode".

Yet another lie.  I did not place all of Curtis' postings under the
banner of "emulation mode".  I did call his "emulation mode" posting
"emulation mode".  The fact that he made that posting is what you
should regard as a pattern for what Bass does when he sees no other
way out of a losing argument.  Interesting that you have not done so.

2> 2] Pontificate that his adversary is posting articles typifying
2>    said banner.

Yet another lie.  Where is the alleged pontification, Marty?  The
existence of Curtis' "emulation mode" posting was clearly identified.

2> 3] Develop a catch-phrase to knock down the phony strawman banner
2>    he created in step 1.

Yet another lie.  Where is the alleged phony strawman banner, Marty?

2> 4] Declare that it is now "time to digestify" his adversary's
2>    postitings.

With good reason, Marty.  Curtis had no valid reason for posting
multiple responses to a single posting, so I reversed the situation
by recombining those multiple postings into a single response.

2> 5] Gather all relevant points stated by the adversary in question

As opposed to gathering irrelevant points or only some relevant points,
Marty?

2> 6] Reply to one of the adversary's postings (preferably one that is
2>    cross-posted to several newsgroups),

On what basis do you claim that it's a preference, Marty?  My responses
simply go to the newsgroups where the articles to which I'm responding
were posted.

2> changing the title to "[name of his adversary] Digest,

Appropriate, given that it does represent a digest.  Would you prefer
that I string together all the individual titles?

2> volume [current 'stardate']"

Yet another lie.  No "stardate" is involved, Marty.

2> 7] Remove all context from the gathered postings

Yet another lie, especially in connection with responses to Bass, who
wrote:

CB] They would have encountered them in previous posts of the thread,
CB] and could have gone back to said previous posts were they so inclined.

to justify his own removal of all context.

2> 8] Respond to each point for which he has no logical response

On what basis do you claim that I have no logical response, Marty?

2>    or each point which is too uncomfortable or embarrassing for
2>    response

On what basis do you claim that I find points uncomfortable or
embarrassing, Marty?

2>    with the phrase developed in step 3.

You're erroneously presupposing the existence of some "catch-phrase"
developed in your "step 3", Marty.

2> 9] Repeat steps 5 through 8, throwing in a healthy smathering of
2>    step 2.

Yet another lie.

2> 10] Cook at 325 degrees for 2 hours being sure to turn the digest
2>     every half hour

And here we have the pattern for what Marty does when he sees no way
out of a losing argument:  post a series of lies and non sequitur
statements.

3> Was it "time" then or now?  Do make up your mind Dave.

What makes you think I haven't made up my mind, Marty?

3> See the thread labelled Amodeo Digest,

For what, Marty?

3> hypocrite.

Yet another example of your pontification, and rather ironic, coming
from the person who claimed to have killfiled me.

3> What alleged "unnecessary usage"?

Curtis had already responded once.  It was unnecessary to extract a
subset of the article and respond to it a second time, and then extract
a different subset and respond to that a second time.

3> How ironic, coming from the person who resorted to "emulation mode"
3> to avoid the issue.

What alleged "emulation mode", Marty?

3> Someone seems to have corrupted your mind.  You tell us.

Typical invective.  More of Marty's pattern when he sees no way out of
a losing argument.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               12-Dec-99 02:44:07
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 05:15:11
Subj: Re: Amodeo digest, volume 2451525

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Tholen is becoming more like Bob Germer every day.  He can't tolerate anyone
who holds a different opinion than he does, as evidenced by his responses to
Curtis Bass and myself, so he makes sweeping, incorrect generalizations about
all of said person's postings and uses it as an excuse to dismiss said person. 

Here's today's digest:

tholenAntiSpam@hawaii.edu wrote:
> 
> Marty is becoming more like Jeff Glatt every day.  He can't tolerate
> anyone who holds a different view of me than he does, as evidenced
> by his response to Karel Jansens.  Here's today's digest:

"Is it because of your sex life that you are going through all of this?"

I warned you about going down that path, Dave.

> Trying to predict the future, Marty?

"Is it because of your sex life that you are going through all of this?"

I warned you about going down that path, Dave.

> Exactly what do you mean by the "same capacities"?  Timbol was
> spreading misinformation by calling Joseph's statement about OS/2
> Java 1.1.8 "bullshit"; I corrected that misinformation.  Timbol
> tried to support his claim by pointing to classes.zip; I corrected
> that misinformation by pointing to secma.zip.

"Is it because of your sex life that you are going through all of this?"

I warned you about going down that path, Dave.

> So what, Marty?  Is there something wrong with his responses?
> Once again, you're ignoring cause and effect.  Yes, my exchanges
> with Karel have been different from my exchanges with you and
> several others.  You seem to think that I'm the difference, when
> in reality, it's you and several others that are the difference.
> Karel hasn't resorted to personal attacks the way you and several
> others have.  There's a lesson in there for you.

"Is it because of your sex life that you are going through all of this?"

I warned you about going down that path, Dave.

> I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you would pontificate over
> what you consider the truth.  I guess I shouldn't be surprised
> that you would lie about me allegedly teaching Karel to show less
> concern for the truth.

"Is it because of your sex life that you are going through all of this?"

I warned you about going down that path, Dave.

> Yet another unsubstantiated claim.

"Is it because of your sex life that you are going through all of this?"

I warned you about going down that path, Dave.

> On what basis do you claim that I am his "buddy", Marty?  You're
> as bad as Jeff Glatt, automatically assuming that anyone who
> doesn't agree with your position about me must be a "buddy" of
> mine.

"Is it because of your sex life that you are going through all of this?"

I warned you about going down that path, Dave.

> What alleged losing argument, Marty?

"Is it because of your sex life that you are going through all of this?"

I warned you about going down that path, Dave.

> Yet another lie.  I did not place all of Curtis' postings under the
> banner of "emulation mode".  I did call his "emulation mode" posting
> "emulation mode".  The fact that he made that posting is what you
> should regard as a pattern for what Bass does when he sees no other
> way out of a losing argument.  Interesting that you have not done so.

"Is it because of your sex life that you are going through all of this?"

I warned you about going down that path, Dave.

> Yet another lie.  Where is the alleged pontification, Marty?  The
> existence of Curtis' "emulation mode" posting was clearly identified.

"Is it because of your sex life that you are going through all of this?"

I warned you about going down that path, Dave.

> Yet another lie.  Where is the alleged phony strawman banner, Marty?

"Is it because of your sex life that you are going through all of this?"

I warned you about going down that path, Dave.

> With good reason, Marty.  Curtis had no valid reason for posting
> multiple responses to a single posting, so I reversed the situation
> by recombining those multiple postings into a single response.

"Is it because of your sex life that you are going through all of this?"

I warned you about going down that path, Dave.

> As opposed to gathering irrelevant points or only some relevant points,
> Marty?

"Is it because of your sex life that you are going through all of this?"

I warned you about going down that path, Dave.

> On what basis do you claim that it's a preference, Marty?  My responses
> simply go to the newsgroups where the articles to which I'm responding
> were posted.

"Is it because of your sex life that you are going through all of this?"

I warned you about going down that path, Dave.

> Appropriate, given that it does represent a digest.  Would you prefer
> that I string together all the individual titles?

"Is it because of your sex life that you are going through all of this?"

I warned you about going down that path, Dave.

> Yet another lie.  No "stardate" is involved, Marty.

"Is it because of your sex life that you are going through all of this?"

I warned you about going down that path, Dave.

> Yet another lie, especially in connection with responses to Bass, who
> wrote:

"Is it because of your sex life that you are going through all of this?"

I warned you about going down that path, Dave.

> to justify his own removal of all context.

"Is it because of your sex life that you are going through all of this?"

I warned you about going down that path, Dave.

> On what basis do you claim that I have no logical response, Marty?

"Is it because of your sex life that you are going through all of this?"

I warned you about going down that path, Dave.

> On what basis do you claim that I find points uncomfortable or
> embarrassing, Marty?

"Is it because of your sex life that you are going through all of this?"

I warned you about going down that path, Dave.

> You're erroneously presupposing the existence of some "catch-phrase"
> developed in your "step 3", Marty.

"Is it because of your sex life that you are going through all of this?"

I warned you about going down that path, Dave.

> Yet another lie.

"Is it because of your sex life that you are going through all of this?"

I warned you about going down that path, Dave.

> And here we have the pattern for what Marty does when he sees no way
> out of a losing argument:  post a series of lies and non sequitur
> statements.

"Is it because of your sex life that you are going through all of this?"

I warned you about going down that path, Dave.

> What makes you think I haven't made up my mind, Marty?

"Is it because of your sex life that you are going through all of this?"

I warned you about going down that path, Dave.

> For what, Marty?

"Is it because of your sex life that you are going through all of this?"

I warned you about going down that path, Dave.

> Yet another example of your pontification, and rather ironic, coming
> from the person who claimed to have killfiled me.

"Is it because of your sex life that you are going through all of this?"

I warned you about going down that path, Dave.

> Curtis had already responded once.  It was unnecessary to extract a
> subset of the article and respond to it a second time, and then extract
> a different subset and respond to that a second time.

"Is it because of your sex life that you are going through all of this?"

I warned you about going down that path, Dave.

> What alleged "emulation mode", Marty?

"Is it because of your sex life that you are going through all of this?"

I warned you about going down that path, Dave.

> Typical invective.  More of Marty's pattern when he sees no way out of
> a losing argument.

"Is it because of your sex life that you are going through all of this?"

I warned you about going down that path, Dave.

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From: brentdaviesNOSPAM@home.com                        12-Dec-99 07:43:02
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 05:15:11
Subj: Re: Jury scheduled to hear Caldera vs. Microsoft next January

From: "Brent Davies" <brentdaviesNOSPAM@home.com>

void <float@incandescent.firedrake.org> wrote in message
news:slrn8555b2.h5t.float@incandescent.firedrake.org...
| In article <3851fc76$7$obot$mr2ice@news.pics.com>, Bob Germer wrote:
| >On <J3a44.47089$zd.527112@news1.alsv1.occa.home.com>, on 12/10/99 at
04:42
| >PM,
| >   "Brent Davies" <brentdaviesNOSPAM@home.com> said:
| >
| >> I second that.  I've installed IE5 on every system in my network using
| >> "Client Software" CD from TechNet.  I launch setup and let it copy
| >> files.  When it wants a reboot, I say yes, then take the CD out of the
| >> drive and go to the next system.  There most definitely is some post-
| >> reboot configuration running in the background, but it does NOT require
| >> the installation path to be present.  I know this because I am off at
| >> another workstation with my CD running setup while the post-
| >> reboot config is taking place on the last workstation, without the CD
in
| >> the drive.  It never asks for the CD again.
| >
| >Well, this is absolutely immaterial. I am using the CD provided by MS not
| >whatever you are using. Typical of a MS whore trying to paint shit white.
|
| TechNet is MS.  Let me go get my crowbar, your foot can't be comfortable
| there.

Com'on Bob!!  You've been making an ass out of yourself in this manor
a lot lately.  It seems like all you have to do is open your mouth.

Yes, Ben is right.  TechNet is a Microsoft product used by anyone
who wants to provide a decent level of support to their Microsoft
customers.  The IE5 installation on my TechNet CD is EXACTLY
the same as it is on your CD.  The only difference is that IE5 is in
its own directory on the CD, along with many other utilities on the
same CD, more efficiently utilizing the space.  There is no
difference between the two CDs where the IE5 installation process
is concerned.  Run setup, reboot once, login, allow setup to
modify the user's settings.  No second reboot.

-B


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From: brentdaviesNOSPAM@home.com                        12-Dec-99 07:46:28
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 05:15:11
Subj: Re: Jury scheduled to hear Caldera vs. Microsoft next January

From: "Brent Davies" <brentdaviesNOSPAM@home.com>

<jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens)> wrote in message
news:L9BY9tzSDwrQ-pn2-uEmsirKLfyKd@localhost...
[snip]
|
| I'd like to think I would be civil enough to keep personal attacks out
| of a technical issue, but who knows?

IIRC, it was Bob (a while back) who first started throwing the
personal attacks.  That probably has a great deal to do with
the reason few people like him in COMNA.  First impressions,
and all that jazz...

-B


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From: tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu                12-Dec-99 03:24:05
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 05:15:11
Subj: Re: Amodeo digest, volume 2451525

From: tholenbot <tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu>

In article <82vgq1$1ct$2@news.hawaii.edu>, tholenAntiSpam@hawaii.edu 
wrote:


> 1> Before you answer that, realize that you are about to make a
> 1> statement about Tholen's credibility,

What alleged "credibility" of Tholen's, Marty?

> Trying to predict the future, Marty?

Don't you know, Dave?
 
> Exactly what do you mean by the "same capacities"?

Ask your grasshopper.

> I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you would pontificate over
> what you consider the truth.  I guess I shouldn't be surprised
> that you would lie about me allegedly teaching Karel to show less
> concern for the truth.

Aren't you certain?

> Yet another unsubstantiated claim.

Why?

> Yet another lie.

Prove it, if you think you can.

> With good reason, Marty.  Curtis had no valid reason for posting
> multiple responses to a single posting, so I reversed the situation
> by recombining those multiple postings into a single response.

Balderdash.  Your stroll down irrelevancy lane was predictable, Dave.

> Typical invective.  More of Marty's pattern when he sees no way out of
> a losing argument.

On what basis do you make this claim?

-- 
""I do not 'approve' phrases.-Dave Tholen"
- Eric Bennett"
-Marty Amodeo

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: jbergman@ixc.ixc.net                              12-Dec-99 04:47:29
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 10:13:26
Subj: Preventing a TRAP#### from 

From: "Trancser" <jbergman@ixc.ixc.net>


I was wondering if there was a way to prevent having to actually reboot ones
system, if a TRAP occurs? Is there a way to make the system ...I guess dump
the trap were your actually able to regain control of your system, without
having to press either reset button on your computer, or press the C.A.D.
sequence?

I know that there is a 'trapdump' parameter one can place inside their
config.sys file, but this doesnt sound like it will help prevent one from
having to reboot....



--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net                            12-Dec-99 11:15:14
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 10:13:27
Subj: Re: Jury scheduled to hear Caldera vs. Microsoft next January

From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens)

On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 23:31:53, Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> wrote:

> Karel Jansens wrote:
> > 
> > On Fri, 10 Dec 1999 23:39:02, Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > Karel Jansens wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, 10 Dec 1999 02:07:42, Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Karel Jansens wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, 9 Dec 1999 21:59:22, Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Karel Jansens wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Thu, 9 Dec 1999 02:13:15, Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>
wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Karel Jansens wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Bob says he doesn't (and I know similar firms who indeed
don't). On
> > > > > > > > > > what basis do you doubt him?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > How's this for starters:
> > > > > > > > > "Since you are a Canuck, your opinoin is worth less than
garbage."
> > > > > > > > > "Typical conduct of an Arab terrorist. You can't win a
rational 
> > > > > > > > >  argument so you attempt to blow others up."
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Oookayyy...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Actually, I was referring to the data of the case provided, so 
I could
> > > > > > > > have a chance to reply.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > That didn't stop you from replying, Karel.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > ????
> > > > >
> > > > > You still replied, in spite of your alleged lack of "a chance". 
Reading
> > > > > comprehension problems?
> > > > >
> > > > Ah. I see now. Semantics.
> > >
> > > Yours perhaps, if you are attempting to pursue this.  The point of fact
is that
> > > you replied in spite of the alleged lack of "referring to the data of
the
> > > case".
> > >
> > Look, if you're going to play that game, I'm out.
> 
> What alleged game, Karel?  I'm countering your misinformation.
> 
> > I can't say why I can't reply without posting *something*. I was trying to 
be
> > (somewhat) polite
> 
> Unnecessary, Karel.
> 
> > by letting you know I had read your post, but didn't want to react, 
> > because I had been reacting only to the facts of the case sofar.
> 
> Doing so is inherently hypocritical.
> 
> > This is an issue to you,
> 
> The truth is an issue to me, Karel.
> 
> > but not to me.
> 
> An obvious lie, given how you continue to make "an issue" out of it.
> 
> > *PLONK*, IIRC, would be the correct reaction for me?
> 
> That would be quite convenient for you, however, not correct by any stretch.
> 

Plonk!


> > > > > > > > Now, all I can say is: "Indeed. Well... yes".
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Glad you agree that those statements are indeed a basis on which 
he may
> > > > > > > be doubted.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Just as long as you add: "... for me" to that sentence.
> > > > >
> > > > > On the contrary, the above quoted statements are indeed a valid
basis on which
> > > > > *anyone* may doubt Bob, especially in light of his lack of
retraction.  Your
> > > > > lack of courage to take such a stand is typical, however.
> > > >
> > > > He didn't retract, he explained.
> > >
> > > I can give someone a black-eye and then explain that I thought there was 
a gnat
> > > on their eyelid.  Is this an acceptable thing to do?
> > >
> > Funny thing: about the same happened to me once. It was a *huge* wasp
> > and not my eye, and I was pretty angry until I saw the size of the
> > insect.
> > 
> > It all depends whether there was a gnat or just the intention to punch
> > someone's lights out.
> 
> Does:
> "Since you are a Canuck, your opinoin is worth less than garbage."
> "Typical conduct of an Arab terrorist. You can't win a rational argument so
you
> attempt to blow others up."
> 
> sound like Bob was doing anyone a favor?
> 
Bob doesn't do anybody any favours. I don't like the kind of language 
he uses; I'm not happy with the way he treats certain people (although
some of them could do with a dose of their own medicine). How does 
that change anything to the facts?

> > > > And no matter how one interprets those remarks, they have absolutely
no
> > > > relevance to his credibility re the facts of the case presented.
> > >
> > > They have relevance to his credibility as a whole, which casts doubt on
his
> > > credibility on specific issues.
> > >
> > You've been playing silly games with Tholen, Bennett and Haakmat
> > for... How long is it now? This would do what to your credibility?
> 
> I have been countering misinformation, FUD, and have been pointing out
> inconsistencies and substantiating claims.  Are these things "silly games"
to
> you Karel?
> 
This is so funny I'm almost crying.
Virtually every "player" in those threads has almost wordly said the 
same thing at one time or another.

> Before you answer that, realize that you are about to make a statement about
> Tholen's credibility, who himself has been intimately involved in all of
these
> threads you mention in the same capacities as the other participants.
> 
So? The threads are a monument of silliness, as stupid as you'll ever 
find on UseNet. I don't care who's in it, it doesn't change my 
opinion. The only ones in the threads who have a shred of an excuse, 
are Bennett and Haakmat, who obviously are having fun.

> > > > They could make him despicable, yes, but not incredible.
> > >
> > > There's nothing incredible about Bob.  He's quite ordinary,
unfortunately.
> > >
> > Possible language problem on my part? I meant incredible as "having no
> > credibility". This was not the right word?
> 
> (Double meaning.  Actually "incredible" as in "amazing" is quite similar in
> concept because what is described as "incredible" is so amazing that your
> credibility can be doubted for saying so.  However "incredible" has taken on
> more of a connotation of "amazing", at least in the US.)
> 
Well, apolologies then <G> for putting you on the wrong leg.

> > > > If you'd like to start a new thread, "Bob Germer is a redneck racist"
or
> > > > suchlike, I'd gladly give my opinions and contribute to it.
> > >
> > > Dubious.
> > >
> > You don't *know* that.
> 
> Never claimed I did.
> 
> > So why are you saying this?
> 
> I find such a statement dubious, given your past performances.
>  
Try me.

> > > > However, to the issues I have been reacting to, this is of no
significance.
> > >
> > > Incorrect.
> 
> Note: no response
> 
What do you want me to say? "You're wrong?", so you can start another 
subthread like the one I plonked?

> > > > So what courage would I need then?
> > >
> > > The courage to be objective and not accept someone's word on blind
faith,
> > > especially someone who has shown that their own objectivity and grasp of 
truth
> > > and reality is highly questionable.  Perhaps you can redirect the
courage you
> > > summoned to defend Bob over to this new area.
> > >
> > Objectivity works both ways, Marty. You say: "I don't see many reasons
> > to believe Bob". I say: "I don't see many reasons not to believe Bob".
> 
> You would be correct if that's all I stated.  However, I have stated:
> 1] "I don't see any reasons to believe Bob"
> 2] "I see several reasons to doubt Bob"
> 
Yes, you're correct. My mistake again. The reason why I conveniently 
forgot it was that - to me - the reasons you state for doubting Bob 
are unrelated to "the case". You see, I'm trying to prove logical 
coherence in a chain of (recorded) events, not so much finding out 
whether the events depicted have correlation with reality.

> > And in any case, it is quite irrelevant to my argumentation whether
> > Bob has been describing a real case or just made it up. I have argued
> > that the described cause of events is plausible, that there are no
> > significant inconsistencies which would make it improbable to have
> > happened.
> 
> I can describe many plausible situations which are lies, Karel.  If this is
the
> crux of your argumentation, then your opinions are "worth less than garbage" 
as
> your buddy would say.
> 
So? How am I going to verify your lies then? If you adamantly state 
that your name is Neil Armstrong and that you've been to the Moon, how
am I able to prove you wrong? You're letters on a screen, Marty. You 
can claim anything you want to and as long as your claims don't 
contradict anything I already know, I cannot verify them.

> > > > To you I would have to say:
> > >
> > > So why not just say it?
> > >
> > Because that would be stupid!
> 
> According to who, Karel?  You?
> 
Readon, dear man. Read on.

> > I have argued that the events are logical, and then I would have to
> > conclude: "No, this cannot be right, because the man who described the
> > events doesn't have a nice personality".
> 
> On what basis do you feel you would "have to conclude" the above?  Certainly
> not from anything I've said.
> 
But that's exactly what you've said. You want me to dismiss Bob's 
story because he doesn't say nice things.

> > I may do many things to please other people,
> 
> Yes, we've seen your responses to and about Tholen.
> 
And your point is?

> > but I'm not prepared to drop logic to make you happy.
> 
> You need not "drop" what you haven't picked up, Karel, nor would the
abondment
> of logic "make me happy".  Quite the opposite, as I am asking you to be
> objective and logical.
> 
I'm so sorry not to meet your criteria.

> > > > "Okay, Bob Germer did present a credible explanation for his
installation
> > > > of Warp on his client's pc's, but because he said this and that I
choose
> > > > not to believe him." That's consequent behaviour then?
> > >
> > > You're presupposing that Bob did present a credible explanation for his
> > > installation of Warp on his client's PCs.
> > >
> > Yes, he did.
> 
> Your assumption, one which I do not share.
> 
> > > "Bob says he doesn't (and I know similar firms who indeed don't). On
what basis
> > > do you doubt him?"
> > >
> > > Sorry, but we don't all share your blind faith in Bob, especially after
reading
> > > his postings.
> > >
> > > Due to lack of hard facts at my disposal regarding Bob's clients, and
due to
> > > the presence of such negative, biased commentary from Bob himself I am
left to
> > > take Bob's statements with a pillar of salt at best.  He has done
nothing to
> > > convince me of his credibility (which is not particularly his fault) and 
quite
> > > a bit to refute it (which most certainly is his fault).
> > 
> > See above. Even if he lied his teeth out, the story still has an
> > internal logic, and that's all that matters.
> 
> I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you are more concerned about what you
> refer to as "logic" than the truth.  Tholen has taught you well,
grasshopper.
> 
Please do not generalise without reason. It is so... Glattish.
Besides, I've already made it clear that in this case my only interest
was in the internal consistency of the logic, not the actual 
truthfulness, so your remark is, besides rather funny, completely 
superfluous.

> > After all, not a single one of you is more than letters on a monitor
> > (with the exceptions of Dave Tholen, Esther Schindler and Jim Stuyck,
> > of whom I've seen photographs - and even then...).
> 
> http://www.rit.edu/~meseec/picnic99/img60.jpg
> Front row, far left.  Does this make me any more or less credible?
> 
It had nothing to do with credibility, but everything with the 
statement "letters on a monitor". I'll add you to the list from now 
on, OK? (img45.jpg is much better).
(BTW, don't play with your food, Marty <G>)

> > The entire "credibility" issue is a laugh;
> 
> Coming from the person running interference for Tholen and Bob, it certainly
> is.
> 
> > do you really think any of you has a real world credibility rating higher 
> > than 0 to me?
> 
> I suppose your use of my software doesn't give me credibility with you.
> 
OH? I can only use MAME (still cool, BTW) if I agree on everything 
with you? Please let me know. If that's the case, I'll remove it 
pronto
from my system.

> > The only thing I can judge is internal consistency of postings on UseNet
or
> > comparison with facts that I know personally,
> 
> Compared to the facts you know personally, does someone who says:
> "Since you are a Canuck, your opinoin is worth less than garbage."
> "Typical conduct of an Arab terrorist. You can't win a rational argument so
you
> attempt to blow others up."
> 
> have any credibility?
> 
See higher to get the overall figure of credibility I've given to this
group.

> > and that's all I'm prepared to rate on.
> 
> Apparently not.
> 
> > I don't expect anything more from the rest of you either.
> 
> And you expect considerably less from your "buddies", Tholen and Germer.

I don't understand the above.

Karel Jansens
jansens_at_attglobal_dot_net
=======================================================
"The method employed I would gladly explain,
While I have it so clear in my head,
If I had but the time and you had but the brain -
But much yet remains to be said."

the Hunting of the Snark (Lewis Carroll)
=======================================================

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From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               12-Dec-99 06:48:22
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 10:13:27
Subj: Re: Preventing a TRAP#### from

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Trancser wrote:
> 
> I was wondering if there was a way to prevent having to actually reboot ones
> system, if a TRAP occurs? Is there a way to make the system ...I guess dump
> the trap were your actually able to regain control of your system, without
> having to press either reset button on your computer, or press the C.A.D.
> sequence?
> 
> I know that there is a 'trapdump' parameter one can place inside their
> config.sys file, but this doesnt sound like it will help prevent one from
> having to reboot....

Not possible.  When it hits one of those black screen traps, the system is
already too far gone to recover.  Either the system wound up losing track of
which memory is paged in and out or (more often likely) system level code
(such
as a device driver) had an unrecoverable memory protection fault.

- Marty

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: nospam_ktk@netlabs.org                            12-Dec-99 13:17:11
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 10:13:27
Subj: Re: Oops, my fault

From: "Adrian Gschwend" <nospam_ktk@netlabs.org>

On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 14:38:34 -0600, Kelly Robinson, the Xth Doctor wrote:

>Just saying that I lacked the stupidity to remain here doesn't mean I
>can't bitch about you dingbats somewhere else.

hey, you promised that you won't post anymore into this newsgroup so please
do what you wrote!


---
Adrian Gschwend
@ OS/2 Netlabs

ICQ: 22419590
ktk@netlabs.org
-------
The OS/2 OpenSource Project:
http://www.netlabs.org


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From: siberREMOVETHIS@sympatico.ca                      12-Dec-99 12:49:09
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 10:13:27
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: siberREMOVETHIS@sympatico.ca (E. Barry Bruyea)

On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 18:51:38 -0500, Joseph <josco@ibm.net> wrote:

>
>
>"E. Barry Bruyea" wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 15:05:05 -0500, Joseph <josco@ibm.net> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >"E. Barry Bruyea" wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 16:05:39 GMT, Chris J Delanoy
>> >> <cdelanoy@ualberta.ca> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> You and a handful of others here are the only irrational beings
>> >> >> here.
>> >> >
>> >> >Irrationality is the act of saying - and believing - that companies
>> >> >can simultaneously charge prices that are above AND below market
>> >> >prices.  Irrationality is the act of saying - and believing - that
>> >> >you are being forced against your will to use a product, while at
>> >> >the same time you declare at the bottom of every message you post
>> >> >that you do NOT use that product.
>> >>
>> >> It's the Bill Clinton approach.
>> >
>> >And of Bill Gates.
>>
>> Bill Gates isn't pissing on your leg and then telling you it's
>> raining, but Clinton gets a blow job and says it isn't sex.
>
>No one has pissed on my leg -- I'm confused by your baby talk  metaphors.

And were all wondering just how thick one person can be, but I have to
admit, you're clearing that up pretty damn fast.

>
>Gates has bickered over the meaning of common words while underoath.  He's
>professed to not understanding e-mails he has written and not understood
>those to which he replied.  He insists MS is not  a monopoly and there is
>no PC market.  Sick isn't it !
>
>

EBB

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From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           12-Dec-99 08:00:20
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 10:13:27
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <82uf8l$2rb$12@burn.ab.videon.ca>, on 12/11/99 at 09:21 PM,
   larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg) said:

> > And if the contract states you must break the law in some fashion?  Is
> > that a legal contract?

> Legal, no.  But if the law you'd be breaking is unjust, then the
> contract should be legal since the unjust thing wouldn't exist.

If you passed Logic, then the UofAlberta is as big a joke as you are.

Get Mommy to explain this to you.

Oh, you can't. Test tubes can't talk.


--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------

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From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           12-Dec-99 08:01:23
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 10:13:27
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <3852bfb5.8224230@news1.sympatico.ca>, on 12/11/99 at 09:19 PM,
   siberREMOVETHIS@sympatico.ca (E. Barry Bruyea) said:

> On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 16:05:39 GMT, Chris J Delanoy
> <cdelanoy@ualberta.ca> wrote:
> >
> >Irrationality is the act of saying - and believing - that companies
> >can simultaneously charge prices that are above AND below market
> >prices.  Irrationality is the act of saying - and believing - that
> >you are being forced against your will to use a product, while at
> >the same time you declare at the bottom of every message you post
> >that you do NOT use that product.


> It's the Bill Clinton approach.

I'm beginning to think that the University of Alberta is at fault. Two
people from the same institution cannot be that dense unless they are
being taught by idiots.


--
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Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
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From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           12-Dec-99 08:03:07
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 10:13:27
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <82uepe$2rb$11@burn.ab.videon.ca>, on 12/11/99 at 09:13 PM,
   larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg) said:


> In the case of anti-trust, I've been recognizing the invalidity OF THE
> LAW repeatedly.

> > A gun is measureable.  Monopoly power is measurable.

> Monopoly power requires a monopoly.  Microsoft isn't a monopoly.

Monopoly is what the law defines a monopoly to be. It is not what you
think (and I use that term very loosely in your case) it should be.

> Measuring the monopoly powers of Microsoft is like measuring the number
> of guns on the head of a pin.  There are none.

There most certainly are under the definition of monopoly used in US (and
Canadian apparently) law. Under the law MS is a monopoly and its power is
measurable as defined in the law.

> > You have refused to recognize the phenomena of a monoipoly and monopoly
> > power.

> I will not lie and say that Microsoft is a monopoly.
> I will not lie and say that Microsoft can use monopoly power.

You are lying to yourself and the world in that case. Whether or not you
like the law, the law defines what monopoly means. MS meets and exceeds
the definition. Ergo it is a monopoly under the law. Monopolies can and do
exercise monopoly power as that power is defined under the law.

Your inane stupidity is not going to get you an interview much less a job
with MS. Wanting same is the only possible explanation for your idiotic
rantings and ravings other than that you are a totally stupid, retarded,
moron cheating his way through college.

--
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Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
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From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           12-Dec-99 08:09:01
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 10:13:27
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <82ueeo$2rb$9@burn.ab.videon.ca>, on 12/11/99 at 09:07 PM,
   larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg) said:


> I'm not misreading.  Bob's attempt to "blame" the extra cost on Michelin
> wasn't valid.

You are a liar. You also posted this AFTER replying to a subsequent
message of mine explaining to you that you had misread what I posted.


--
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Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
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From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           12-Dec-99 08:22:01
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 14:24:12
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <jbysxvebayvaxarg.fmlias6.pminews@news.onlink.net>, on 12/11/99 at
04:28 PM,
   "Wolf Kirchmeir" <greywolf@onlink.net> said:

> You continually talk as if no one had any responsibilities to anyone. If
> you really believe that, you can't justify objections to anything anyone
> might do to you. So you don't like it! So what? If my only
> responsibility is to myself, why should I care whether you like it or
> not? I'll do what I like, and if it kills you, too bad.

Exactly. Using Lars P. Omberg's infantile attempt at logic, I should be
able to drive down the Queen Elizabeth II highway at 200 KPH in my Viper.
I know the law says I cannot exceed 100 KPH (in some areas at least if
memory serves), but I have decided that the law is invalid and that no
one's speed should be regulated by governments. Therefore it is perfectly
right and moral for me to do 200 regardless of the harm I am likely to
cause to others on the road.

The man is such an idiot and liar that he claimed I didn't know who he was
or that I knew where his website was. This despite the fact that he posted
the website information in many messages until I started communicating
with the officials at the University of Alberta.

For the record, the website address is www.ualberta.ca/~larso. On one of
the pages of absolute insane illogic, irrational ranting, and downright
idiotic statements, one finds a six page biography. It is called the
Faculty of the "University of Lars."

His full name is Lars Patrick Ormberg.
He lists his height at 6' 1.5" or 183 cm.
etc., etc. etc. for 5 pages! He gives his father's name (Murray Lars
Ormberg), his mother's (Theresa Ivy Makutka Ormberg), lists a cow named
Cassandra and a bull named Homer as pets, etc. etc. etc.

He includes a picture of himself. He bears a striking resemblance to
Jeffrey Dahlmer.


--
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Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
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From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           12-Dec-99 08:40:08
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 14:24:12
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <82tsoi$qg3$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, on 12/11/99 at 04:05 PM,
   Chris J Delanoy <cdelanoy@ualberta.ca> said:

> Irrationality is the act of saying - and believing - that companies can
> simultaneously charge prices that are above AND below market prices. 
> Irrationality is the act of saying - and believing - that you are being
> forced against your will to use a product, while at the same time you
> declare at the bottom of every message you post that you do NOT use that
> product.

I never said I was forced to use Windows or any other MS product. I said I
was forced to buy one many times despite having no use for it. If you
cannot understand the written word, please go back to kindergarten.

> Your hocus-pocus economics are what stands in diametric opposition to
> reality, reason, and logic.

Your so-called economics are those of a splinter party which garnered
fewer votes in our last Presidential election than Mickey Mouse! You see,
to be listed on our ballot, you must have a minimum number of members.
Your party wasn't listed. People wrote in Mickey Mouse 78 times. No one
wrote in the name of your party's candidate.

> > And as for moral reprehensiblity, the only one exhibiting such
> > is you,

> You only think so because you hold self-sacrifice, force, and
> intellectual suicide as moral virtues.

Recognizing the necessity of a well ordered society governed by a written
body of law as interpreted by our Court system is not intellectual
suicide. Self-sacrifice is most certainly the mark of a civilized human
being concerned with the welfare of his peers who find themselves at one
or another sort of disadvantage. Force is required when those who refuse
to conform to the minimum standard of behavior use or attempt to use force
on other members of the society.

> The morality of life and of happiness (my OWN life and happiness) that I
> live by is based on my recognition that reality exist as an objective
> absolute - and that those of you who deny reality and who defy logic are
> the ones who are anti-life.  The fact that you would have us burn an
> achiever like Bill Gates on a stake is th grim demonstration and only
> possible result of your creed.

Your attitude defys logic. Your positions defy the reality of a society.
Your happiness would allow me to kill you on sight if I didn't conform to
the statutes and mores of society.

You ascribe to me a position totally without any shred of truth. I would
not execute Bill Gates for what he has done and continues to do to violate
the law so long as he did not engage in those crimes for which capital
punishment is prescribed by the laws of our society.

There is a difference between moral law and the law of our society as a
whole. I believe that life begins at conception and the taking of that
life is murder. The reality is that a majority of our society does not
treat abortion as murder. I accept that reality while finding it
repugnant.

Our society has declared that abortion is the right of a woman. I do not
agree, but I would not attempt to impose my moral code upon any woman.
Abortion is under our law a matter between her, her doctor, and her God.

Likewise, the Judeo-Christian faith holds that the state has a right to
execute criminals for crimes it describes as capital crimes. I have no
problem with this. Nor do I have any argument with countries which cut off
the hand of a thief or castrate the rapist. Those are the statutes and
mores of his society. A person committing a murder in the course of a
criminal act, one who plots to kill another, one who hires someone to kill
another, one who betrays his country in time of war, kills innocent men,
women, and children for political reasons by bombing a government
building, etc. are capital crimes here. That is a reality. Executions are
a reality. If it does nothing else, it insures that the animal who kills
another wantonly and deliberately will never do it again on this earth.
That is a good.



--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
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From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           12-Dec-99 08:58:08
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 14:24:12
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <jbysxvebayvaxarg.fmlgpq3.pminews@news.onlink.net>, on 12/11/99 at
03:53 PM,
   "Wolf Kirchmeir" <greywolf@onlink.net> said:

> I'm not willing to pay for the other plane, that's all. Why should I?
> And why should it be considered moral for a company to try to unload
> something on me by tieing it to the product that I want to buy from
> them? That's coercion, no matter how you slice it.

Ah, Wolf, you are wasting your time. I wonder how the "genius" would like
it were he a diabetic for whom CocaCola was poison and Coke gained
sufficient market penentration that he could force old larso to buy a 32
ounce Coke (non diet of course) with every BigMac. I use that example
because he lists Big Mac's as one of his favorite foods on the website I
never saw and don't know where its address.

> Seems to me you like the idea of the power to force people to buy
> all-or-nothing. That makes you not only a fool, but a first-rate prick
> as well. Sorry, I misspoke myself. A thrid-rate prick.

Did you mean THIRD rate or TIRD rate prick above? <VBG>

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
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From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           12-Dec-99 09:02:28
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 14:24:12
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <3852AE31.2331A52F@ibm.net>, on 12/11/99 at 03:04 PM,
   Joseph <josco@ibm.net> said:

> But I have a business and your business is hurting mine.  My god - how
> do we resolve that problem if property rights are so absolute?  Of
> course the answer is no right is absolute.  Why you can be sent to war,
> forced to forfeit your life for the protection of the state.   And you
> think ranting about absolute property rights can defend a monopoly.

Mental midgets like our larso, Donnelly (sp?), Britton tend to be physical
cowards who run off and hide if drafted for military service.

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
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From: wsonna@ibm.net                                    12-Dec-99 14:10:00
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 14:24:12
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: wsonna@ibm.net (William Sonna)

On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 09:17:20, rde@tavi.co.uk (Bob Eager) wrote:

> On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 07:45:35, andrew@netneurotic.de (Andrew J. Brehm) 
> wrote:
> 
> > Why? What's wrong with Innoval?
> 
> This is the company that quietly dropped support for, first, their 
> newsreader, then (not so quietly) BOTH their OS/2 mail clients. 
> Leaving loyal users out in the cold.
> 

Would you prefer the jerk with the fourty thousand lines of code he'd 
rather throw away and he did because its his not yours so fuck you 
routine?  That is usually what happens when software companies leave 
markets.

Innoval, in contrast, was exemplary in the manner in which they left 
the OS/2 maketplace.

Consequently, there is still a great deal of good will towards them; 
and they remain highly respected.


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From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           12-Dec-99 09:05:02
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 14:24:12
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <38528947_3@news.cadvision.com>, on 12/11/99 at 10:25 AM,
   "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com> said:

> Bob Germer wrote:
> >
> > > No, but the line reading "that Lars guy who works for you in Calgary"
> > > will be the source of many hours of hilarity.
> >
> > I discussed Larso who has a website on their server and claims to be a
> > student there.

> Only a fascist would try to harm another because they have a different
> opinion.

Society sets limits upon individual freedom within carefully defined laws
to protect the minority. That Ormberg has the right to print (broad
definition) his assinine opinions is absolute SO LONG AS THOSE RANTINGS DO
NOT VIOLATE THE RULES OF THE ORGANIZATION HE CLAIMS TO REPRESENT. That
organization, not a government, has a right to protect its good name. If
Ormberg were an employee of MicroSoft and posted that Bill Gates was a
thief, a liar, etc. on MS's equipment, he would be fired and rightly so.

Likewise, if the University of Alberta has rules against activity which
disgraces, demeans, etc . the name of the University, it has the right to
expel him.

By the way, I have the right to provide as much information as I can glean
about you to the Teamster's Union and Roofer's Union Locals in
Philadelphia which have a history of physically harming those who dare to
disagree with them. Members of the Teamsters including officers of the
local have been convicted of beating an anti-Clinton protestor in front of
TV cameras. Members of the roofers union have been convicted of killing
non-union construction workers.

Were I a facist, I would investigate you thoroughly and do exactly that.
If you refuse to accept that I am not a facist, I may be forced to become
one in your case.

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> What have YOU done to bust a union today?
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Work better: Work union-free.

> Steven C. Britton
> Calgary

> www.cadvision.com/sbritton





--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
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From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           12-Dec-99 09:18:07
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 14:24:12
Subj: Re: Oops, my fault

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <C7QD1hxY9UYt-pn2-GOjnDwVuTti1@slip-32-101-104-74.in.us.prserv.net>, on
12/12/99 at 12:56 AM,
   michel@rua.net said:

> Kelly,

> I do not mind. I do not own this ? nor does anyone else. However I 
> think what you are doing is what I call
> 'sport fishing' , and you always have a bunch of hungry bass lurking 
> under the lily pads of this news group. hell, they'll hit about 
> anything

> I am curious though. Are you female or masquerading as such ?

Same difference when it comes to Kelly Robinson.

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
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From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           12-Dec-99 09:23:09
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 14:24:12
Subj: Re: When will it be 100% done?

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <MPG.12bd0102e809759f989685@news-server.mgfairfax.rr.com>, on 12/12/99
at 05:29 AM,
   David H. McCoy <fake@forgitaboutit.com> said:

> He equated me to a drunken Irishmen because my last name is McCoy. When
> I  informed him that I was black, he then went after that.

Black, brown, sober, drunk, male, female you are an asshole of the first
order. Tell us, was it a test tube that spawned you?

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
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From: donnelly@tampabay.rr.com                          12-Dec-99 14:29:28
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 14:24:12
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: donnelly@tampabay.rr.com (Buddy Donnelly)

On Sun, 12 Dec 1999 04:28:17, hunters@sapphire.indstate.edu wrote:

> In article <385292A6.B3969AE6@WarpCity.com>,
>   OS2Guy@WarpCity.com wrote:
> 
> > Unless it feeds your OS/2 pocket directly, right Steve?
> > You know like where to find that elusive OS/2 fix or
> > OS/2 great deal?
> 
> LOL! I certainly don't need *you* for that! I used OS/2 for 3 years
> before ever reading a single newsgroup...

Responding, not to carry water for Warp City (and I should add, I've 
been to both Kathmandu and Ice Station 9 in the same day as often as 
I've been to Warp City) but just to point out:

There are 2 ways to use newsgroups. 

One way is to "read" them, presumably gleaning info for your own 
personal use. 

The other way is to read them to offer help with things you've become 
experienced at handling.

Tim Martin, of course, has a long history of generously offering help 
here, and (back when I wasn't filtering his own posts because he gets 
into long-running and useless arguments with kneejerk detractors) saw 
that his help was quite timely, accurate, and thoughtfully offered.

Though I never met the cat, never spoke in fact with anyone who has 
actually met him, I would still be willing to bet that he couldn't 
"use OS/2 for 3 years" and stay quiet without trying to offer help to 
others. It's a character flaw I can live with, especially when 
compared to the rampant self-proud selfishness that an increasingly 
WWF world is trying to justify.


-- 

Good luck,

Buddy

Buddy Donnelly
donnelly@tampabay.rr.com


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From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           12-Dec-99 09:25:11
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 14:24:12
Subj: Re: When will it be 100% done?

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <3852D25F.C2686D5C@stny.rr.com>, on 12/11/99 at 05:38 PM,
   Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> said:
  
> > Marty, another MS whore like you,

> Poor Bob doesn't have a clue, does he?  I'm more of an OS/2 advocate
> than he is.  [Hint for boob:  check my message headers, then search Deja
> for articles in other os2 groups posted by me]

Bullshit. You are a liar about so many things, I don't believe you use or
are capable of using OS/2.

> > deliberately took statements out of context in another newsgroup.

> How does one take:
> "Since you are a Canuck, your opinoin is worth less than garbage."

You took it out of context as you well know. I was speaking of Canadian's
opinions having any value whatsoever in our courts in general and in the
MS case in particular. Something of no value whatsoever is garbage.

> "Typical conduct of an Arab terrorist. You can't win a rational argument
> so you attempt to blow others up."

> out of context?  They are all-inclusive statements.  That's what racism
> is all about.

Again you lie. It is not an all-inclusive statement. It merely says, as I
explained at length which you choose to ignore to try to give your lies
the veneer of validity, I was differentiating between those who break the
law because of thier heritage from madmen like McVey, the Unabomber, etc. 

> > He was slapped down hard about Canuck being a totally acceptable reference 
to
> > Canadians.

> "Since you are a Canuck, your opinoin is worth less than garbage."

> I never said anything about the word Canuck, Boob.  I took exception to
> the generalization about the opinions of Canadians as being prejudicial. 
> Amazing you haven't realized that yet.

There is a vast difference between predjudice and irrrelevancy.

> > One even pointed out that the National Hockey League team in Vancouver is 
> > called the Canucks.

> Good for them.  I suppose the opinions of said hockey team are worth
> "less than garbage" too, eh Boob?

When it comes to the anti-trust suit in question here, absolutely.

> > And as I clearly stated the term Arab terrorist was used to differentiate
> > between true believers (Arab terrorists) who are acting according to their
> > training and belief as opposed to nut cases like the Unabomber or the
> > school shooters who are mentally ill at best.

> Nice try boob, but putting the statement back in context, as you wanted
> to do above, your statement toward Ali (aka Hobbyist) had no such
> intended meaning.

You are absolutely wrong. You are as wrong as Lars Ormberg claiming that
MS is not a monopoly.

> > But the truth has no impact on sociopaths like you.

> How ironic, coming from the sociopath who said:
> "Since you are a Canuck, your opinoin is worth less than garbage."
> "Typical conduct of an Arab terrorist. You can't win a rational argument
> so you attempt to blow others up."

Again, Marty, you prove your total lack of a germ of an intellect.

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
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From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           12-Dec-99 09:36:08
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 14:24:12
Subj: Re: Jury scheduled to hear Caldera vs. Microsoft next January

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <dmI44.1004$ds3.21279@news1.alsv1.occa.home.com>, on 12/12/99 at 07:43
AM,
   "Brent Davies" <brentdaviesNOSPAM@home.com> said:

> Yes, Ben is right.  TechNet is a Microsoft product used by anyone who
> wants to provide a decent level of support to their Microsoft customers. 
> The IE5 installation on my TechNet CD is EXACTLY the same as it is on
> your CD.  The only difference is that IE5 is in its own directory on the
> CD, along with many other utilities on the same CD, more efficiently
> utilizing the space.  There is no difference between the two CDs where
> the IE5 installation process is concerned.  Run setup, reboot once,
> login, allow setup to modify the user's settings.  No second reboot.

Our firm does not support Windows 9x. We support applications, hardware,
their network, but we do not resolve Windows 9x problems or applications
beyond those necessary for network support.

Until you run the MS CD which DOES NOT COME THROUGH TECHNET on our
clients' networks, you are unqualified to make the statements above. Until
you have tried to run the MS CD, not the one from Technet, on my machine
you are unqualified to make the above statement. Until you have run the MS
CD on my ThinkPad 390e with the version of Win 98 installed by IBM, you
are unqualified to make the above statement. --
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
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From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           12-Dec-99 09:44:16
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 14:24:12
Subj: Re: Jury scheduled to hear Caldera vs. Microsoft next January

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <slrn8555b2.h5t.float@incandescent.firedrake.org>, on 12/11/99 at 06:18
PM,
   float@incandescent.firedrake.org (void) said:


> TechNet is MS.  Let me go get my crowbar, your foot can't be comfortable
> there.

You are obviously speaking of yourself. As another MS whore admitted the
two CD's are different. He claimed the installation routine is the same.
That may or may not be true. But in any case, no one who hasn't tried to
install the update on the hardware in questsion can claim any knowledge of
my experience.

In the case of my ThinkPad 390e and my PII 400 console, I make changes to
the default CMOS setup to accomodate the greater capabilities of the
various operating systems installed thereon. Perhaps this confuses the
technically inferior MS product. In the case of the client machines on a
Novell Network, whoever installed Windows 98 may not have done it
correctly causing the behavior I've described, particularly since the
NIC's were not PnP in those workstations for the most part. Immaterial. I
saw what I saw. I can duplicate it repeatedly by merely formatting the C
partition and restore it to immediately before using the CD.

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: dc@pdq.net                                        12-Dec-99 08:54:27
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 14:24:12
Subj: Re: Jury scheduled to hear Caldera vs. Microsoft next January

From: DC <dc@pdq.net>

On Sun, 12 Dec 1999 09:44:33 -0500, Bob Germer
<bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com> wrote:

>In the case of my ThinkPad 390e and my PII 400 console, I make changes to
>the default CMOS setup to accomodate the greater capabilities of the
>various operating systems installed thereon. Perhaps this confuses the

I see.  What, exactly, did you do?  

DC

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(1:109/42)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: jmalloy@borg.com                                  12-Dec-99 09:54:07
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 14:24:12
Subj: Re: Bass digest, volume 2451525.3^-.445696y96304599999

From: "Joe Malloy" <jmalloy@borg.com>

Well, at least the digest hasn't prevented any new postings from Curtis in
the Navigator 4.7 sub-thread.  Here's today's digest of Tholen regurgitated:

[Nothing.]

Bye!


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: jmalloy@borg.com                                  12-Dec-99 09:55:13
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 14:24:12
Subj: Re: Tholen digest, volume 2451525^-99999999035900000009

From: "Joe Malloy" <jmalloy@borg.com>

Tholen is becoming more like Bob Germer every day.  He can't tolerate anyone
who holds a different view of himself than he does, as evidenced by his
response to Karel Jansens, yet sane people must hold a different view -- the
truth.  Here's today's digest of all truths told by Tholen during the past:

[Nichts, leider!]

Bye!


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: jmalloy@borg.com                                  12-Dec-99 09:53:18
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 14:24:12
Subj: Re: How to form a digest (as if you don't know!)

From: "Joe Malloy" <jmalloy@borg.com>

You forgot to add, Marty, that, despite the "cooking" in step 10, Tholen's
"ideas," such as they are, come out only half-baked!

Joe

Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:3852CF9B.997B2714@stny.rr.com...
> So hence, we've established a pattern for what Tholen does when he sees no
> other way out of a losing argument.
>
> 1] Create a phrase which he can use as a banner under which to place all
of his
>    adversary's postings, such as "infantile game" or "emulation mode".
> 2] Pontificate that his adversary is posting articles typifying said
banner.
> 3] Develop a catch-phrase to knock down the phony strawman banner he
created in
>    step 1.
> 4] Declare that it is now "time to digestify" his adversary's postitings.
> 5] Gather all relevant points stated by the adversary in question
> 6] Reply to one of the adversary's postings (preferably one that is
> cross-posted
>    to several newsgroups), changing the title to "[name of his adversary]
>    Digest, volume [current 'stardate']"
> 7] Remove all context from the gathered postings
> 8] Respond to each point for which he has no logical response or each
point
> which
>    is too uncomfortable or embarrassing for response with the phrase
developed
> in
>    step 3.
> 9] Repeat steps 5 through 8, throwing in a healthy smathering of step 2.
> 10] Cook at 325 degrees for 2 hours being sure to turn the digest every
half
> hour


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: innoval@ibm.net                                   12-Dec-99 15:10:28
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 14:24:13
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: innoval@ibm.net

Lee, you make some good points.

Let me address servers first. All ISP800 mail servers are Linux. Some
webhosting is Linux and some is other Unix variants. I think one site
is AIX. There are no NT servers anywhere in the ISP800 system. Let me
stree that, NO NT SERVERS. See FAQ at http://isp800/os2/

Sure, it sounds like Windows support when you call tech support. I wish
it weren't so but that is what AFST's market looks like. But AFST is
willing to give OS/2 users a go. When I suggested the OS/2 deal to
AFST, it was received with enthusiasm. I talked to two "lead" tech
support people who were thrilled about the prospects of OS/2 users and
recognize that OS/2, though a slim market share, comprises an
important, talented, and savvy group.

As for naive, I don't know who you talked to. There are about 55 TS
folks if memory serves me right. Questions: Did you get through
quickly? Did tech support try to be helpful? Was attitude good?

As for TS not knowing the 800 number, the ISP800 brand name goes online
to the general public, and in particular OS/2 users, Jan 3. Under
various other brand names, already in operation for a long time, often
with different callin numbers and different support criteria, (and
different access numbers), I don't think you would have encountered
this situation. I don't know for sure. I'll pass on your comment to
AFST. Here it is. Try it. I'm getting 50666 right now:

   888-488-4418

I'll suggest that AFST put the number on the pre-reg pages. I know it
is on the regular pages for the 1/3/2000 launch. Remember, this was a
hurry up set of web pages to give OS/2 users an extra-special deal.

Remember, ISP800, is functionally designed for corporate accounts where
performance, availability, wide-spread access, and reliability are key.
I just think OS/2 users are a good fit. I think we got a good deal from
AFST.

Dan



In article <Chameleon.991211210441.leea@FRED>,
  Lee Aroner  <leea@psynet.net> wrote:
> Dan:
>
> Appreciate the effort. However, when I called to size up the
> offer I found the following:
>
> (1) As you said, sounds like windows support, and rather naive
> at that. What the hey, I don't need or want support anyways.
>
> (2) The TS with the teenage sounding voice that answered
> didn't have any idea what their servers run on. I prefer Nix
> of some sort, Linux is fine, but I need to know. I won't
> support an ISP that runs NT.
>
> (3) The TS also didn't know who their backbone supplier was,
> but after a couple minutes checking, figured out it was UUNet.
> That part's fine.
>
> (4) The TS did not have, or pretended not to know what the 800
> number was. If I can't test for connection speed, I'm not
> interested in signing up. I get 49333 connects every time
> where I'm at now, and I won't switch to an unknown without
> some random test connects.
>
> If you do want to make some money off this deal, get them to
> give out the 800 number for connects, and find out what they
> serve mail and pages from. Gotta know those two...
>
> LRA
>
> ------------------------
>   From: innoval@ibm.net
>   Subject: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!
>   Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 16:35:30 GMT
>   To: "comp.os.os2.advocacy"
> <@news:comp.os.os2.advocacy@192.168.16.2>, "comp.os.os2.apps"
> <@news:comp.os.os2.apps@192.168.16.2>, "comp.os.os2.comm"
> <@news:comp.os.os2.comm@192.168.16.2>,
> "comp.os.os2.marketplace"
> <@news:comp.os.os2.marketplace@192.168.16.2>
>
> > In article <zterrarrkvfarg.fmk8te0.pminews@news.exis.net>,
> >   "Michael K Greene" <mgreene@hotbot.com> wrote:
> > > On Fri, 10 Dec 1999 17:32:00 -0800, Tim Martin wrote:
> > > Any other company would get a "great!!!", but let's look
> at who you
> > > are talking about - Innoval????
> >
> > Okay. Let's get some facts straight before this goes to far
> off topic.
> >
> > AFST is actually offering ISP800 to OS/2 users, not InnoVal. Read
the
> > details and the FAQ at isp800.com/os2/. I, Dan Porter, sought and
> > engineered the deal for OS/2 users. Anyone else (any supporter and
user
> > of OS/2 like myself) could have done it just as easily. InnoVal may
have
> > withdrawn from the OS/2 software market, but InnoVal still has OS/2
> > users and supporters, and the company does recognize that OS/2 users
> > WERE important to us and ARE important to us.
> >
> > I, personally, and InnoVal, have a vested interest in AFST. When
AFST
> > closes a big multi-user deal (and they have closed some very big
deals)
> > I and InnoVal earn something for our efforts. I would be surprised
if
> > OS/2 users as a group (oh, I wish it could be so) will be a big
enough
> > deal to earn us anything -- certainly not at the prices being
offered to
> > OS/2 users. It was just something that I wanted to do.
> >
> > I've seen what AFST brings to the table with 65 tech support people
(all
> > trained unfortunately in Windows stuff), 800 re-routed access, high
> > bandwidth, high capacity email, etc. It's a good deal, even if you
don't
> > like InnoVal. All InnoVal did was try to bring you a good price when
> > AFST launches public consumer service under the ISP800 brand.
> >
> > I was the one who pulled the plug on InnoVal's direct involvement
with
> > OS/2 software. It was a financial thing that investors get concerned
> > about. Add to that, that as a company, we were not good enough with
> > support in the consumer marketplace. I thought we could be, but I
was
> > mistaken. The market wasn't there anymore. So blame me. Not InnoVal.
> >
> > InnoVal, BTW, is lobbying for OS/2 solutions, support, etc. with
AFST
> > and its business partners and vendors. We are not doing so because
we
> > are emotionally attached to OS/2 but because, in some areas, it
makes
> > good business sense.
> >
> > ISP800 makes good business sense. I feel good that we (all of us who
> > want to be a part of this) are, in a small way, involving two new
> > vendors (AFST and National Dialup) in the OS/2 world.
> >
> > Dan Porter, President
> > InnoVal Systems Solutions, Inc.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > Before you buy.
> >
>
> ---------------End of Original Message-----------------
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> Name: Lee Aroner
> E-mail: Lee Aroner <leea@nospm.psynet.net>
>
> (Please remove "nospm." to reply...)
>
> Date: 12/11/1999
> Time: 20:58:54
>
>  _,_ /|
>  \`o.O' ACK!
>  =(___)=
>     U
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
>
>


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: lucien@metrowerks.com                             12-Dec-99 15:16:18
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 14:24:13
Subj: Re: Navigator 4.7 is available!! OS/2 is behind again!!

From: lucien@metrowerks.com

In article <82uuos$ga5$1@news.hawaii.edu>,
  tholenAntiSpam@hawaii.edu wrote:
> Lucien writes:
>
> >>> ] #1:  It rained today.
> >>> ]
> >>> ] #2:  It rained today until sunset.
> >>> ]
> >>> ] The question:  did it rain all of the day or only some of the
day?
> >>> ]

> > Here is the JDK sentence
>
> > 1) "OS/2 Java 1.1.8 implements Java 1.2 functionality. Bummer,
bummer"
>
> Pay particular attention to the additional information provided by the
> reference to Java 1.1.8, Lucien.

Uninformed response. There is no grammatical quantifier in this
sentence.

> > Here is Dave Tholen's response to Mike Timbol in that article:
>
> How does my response to Timbol affect whether Joseph's statement has
> additional information or not, Lucien?

The reader will note that Dave found it necessary to clarify in his
response to Mike whether ALL or SOME functionality was involved. Let's
review the relevant statement:

"Irrelevant, given that Joseph did not say that OS/2 Java 1.1.8
implements ALL of Java 1.2 functionality.  It does implement SOME
of it, however."

Moreover, the clarification was semantically consistent, fulfilling a
requirement of the discourse.

This evidence directly contravenes the alleged non-presence of any
ambiguity.

> > Here is Dave's later statement concerning 'implements'
>
> How does my statement concerning "implements" affect whether Joseph's
> statement has additional information or not, Lucien?

The reader will note that Dave found it necessary to clarify the
predication of 'implements' WRT the quantity of functionality to me
later in this thread. Let's review the relevant statement:

"The word 'implements' does allow for either 'some' or
'all' functionality, in the absence of any other
information."

Moreover, the clarification was semantically consistent, fulfilling a
requirement of the discourse.

This evidence directly contravenes the alleged non-presence of any
ambiguity.

> > Note the absence of any quantifiers in the JDK sentence
>
> Incorrect, Lucien, given the presence of the additional information
> provided by the reference to Java 1.1.8; if "all" functionality of
> Java 1.2 had been implemented, then logically IBM would not have
> called it 1.1.8.

Uninformed response. The reader will note that, if this additional
grammatical information had been present such that the matter were
clear, Dave's clarificatory statement regarding whether SOME or ALL
functionality was involved would not have been required and would not
have made sense, as it does here.
The reader will also note that Dave's repeated clarification of the
ambiguity here and now further (and correctly but unwittingly)
underscores the presence of the ambiguity in the JDK sentence (WRT
quantification).

> > Note Dave's auxiliary statement (#2), crucially affirming and
> > clarifying an ambiguity WRT quantification in that sentence.
>
> Note Joseph's reference to Java 1.1.8, crucially affirming and
> clarifying an ambiguity with respect to quantification in that
> sentence by the very fact that IBM didn't call the JDK "1.2",
> thus one can logically conclude that "all" Java 1.2 functionality
> was *not* implemented.

Uninformed response. The reader will note that, if this additional
grammatical information had been present such that the matter were
clear, Dave's clarificatory statement regarding whether SOME or ALL
functionality was involved would not have been required and would not
have made sense, as it does here.
The reader will also note that Dave's repeated clarification of the
ambiguity here and now further (and correctly but unwittingly)
underscores the presence of the ambiguity in the JDK sentence (WRT
quantification).

> > Clearly, in a fashion congruent with the "rained" and "costly
mistakes"
> > situations, the JDK sentence is ambiguous WRT quantification,
>
> Clearly, in a fashion congruent with example sentence #2, the JDK
sentence
> is not ambiguous with respect to the "all" or "some" quantification,
> because if "all" was intended, IBM would have called the JDK "1.2"
instead
> of "1.1.8".

Uninformed response. The reader will note that, if this additional
grammatical information had been present such that the matter were
clear, Dave's clarificatory statement regarding whether SOME or ALL
functionality was involved would not have been required and would not
have made sense, as it does here.
The reader will also note that Dave's repeated clarification of the
ambiguity here and now further (and correctly but unwittingly)
underscores the presence of the ambiguity in the JDK sentence (WRT
quantification).

Lucien S.


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: aboritz@cybernex.net                              12-Dec-99 10:09:02
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 14:24:13
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: aboritz@cybernex.net (Alan Boritz)

In article <38528F0F.D987D612@WarpCity.com>, Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com>
wrote:
>williamd wrote:
>
>> This sounds *great*; thanks for posting the info! Here's hoping they
>> choose an appropriate domain name- like os2online or something!!
>>
>> Bill
>> __
>> williamd1@attglobal.net
>
>Thanks Bill.  InnoVal actually engineered the low-cost
>deal for OS/2 users in partnership with AFST (Advanced
>Family Safe Technologies, Inc) and it is a great deal for
>OS/2 users.
>
>Get in now and it is only $12 a month for an entire year
>with  56k connections, <smooch, smooch> 100% dialup access either locally
>or through an 800 number <slurp> (and that includes Hawaii, Alaska
>and Puerto Rico), 24 hours a day, 7 days a week access.
>Go to any other vendor and ask for a discount because
>you use OS/2 and they ignore you. <swallow>...

Ok, Tim, take your sloppy spam, get off your knees, and get out of here.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: aboritz@cybernex.net                              12-Dec-99 09:04:29
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 14:24:13
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: aboritz@cybernex.net (Alan Boritz)

In article <38529175.49EDE961@WarpCity.com>, Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com>
wrote:
>Bob Eager wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 07:45:35, andrew@netneurotic.de (Andrew J. Brehm)
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Why? What's wrong with Innoval?
>>
>> This is the company that quietly dropped support for, first, their
>> newsreader, then (not so quietly) BOTH their OS/2 mail clients.
>> Leaving loyal users out in the cold.
>>
>
>Leaving loyal users out in the cold?  Lessee - did they withdraw
>PostRoad Mailer from you the way the developer of CUSeeme/2
>did?

Yes, with Postroad News before that.

>Did they lie to you to get you to buy their product then run
>off into the night the way SPG did?

Yes.

>No InnoVal did not.  To this day they provide free distribution of
>the Post Road Mailer...

They provide NOTHING.  The rest of us are moving the distribution archives
around.  Innoval's support web site has been dead (literally) for years now.

>...(try that with CUSeeMe/2) and have encouraged
>others to continue development of the J Street Mailer.

So they dumped the source and said it's now a do-it-yourself product.  What's
the big deal?

>InnoVal is to be applauded for their continued devotion to
>OS/2, the OS/2 user and the OS/2 community at large.

Wipe your chin, take your kneepads, and get out of here, Timmy.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: aboritz@cybernex.net                              12-Dec-99 09:42:09
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 14:24:13
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: aboritz@cybernex.net (Alan Boritz)

In article <82tugi$rlo$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, innoval@ibm.net wrote:
>In article <zterrarrkvfarg.fmk8te0.pminews@news.exis.net>,
>  "Michael K Greene" <mgreene@hotbot.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 10 Dec 1999 17:32:00 -0800, Tim Martin wrote:
>> Any other company would get a "great!!!", but let's look at who you
>> are talking about - Innoval????
>
>Okay. Let's get some facts straight before this goes to far off topic.

Fine.  Try answering these questions:

How many Postroad News licenses did you sell after announcing that you
discontinued support for the product?

How many years prior to pulling the plug did you stop answering tech support
email?

How many Postroad Mail licenses did you sell after discontinuing support for
the product?

How many Postroad Mail licenses did you sell that qualified for the free
Spellguard add-in, but didn't ship with it?

>AFST is actually offering ISP800 to OS/2 users, not InnoVal. Read the
>details and the FAQ at isp800.com/os2/. I, Dan Porter, sought and
>engineered the deal for OS/2 users.

Oh, is that why you were too busy to clear the messages sitting in your email
account at ibm.net?

>InnoVal may have
>withdrawn from the OS/2 software market, but InnoVal still has OS/2
>users and supporters, and the company does recognize that OS/2 users
>WERE important to us and ARE important to us.

If they're so important, why did you ignore them for so long?

>I, personally, and InnoVal, have a vested interest in AFST. When AFST
>closes a big multi-user deal (and they have closed some very big deals)
>I and InnoVal earn something for our efforts. I would be surprised if
>OS/2 users as a group (oh, I wish it could be so) will be a big enough
>deal to earn us anything -- certainly not at the prices being offered to
>OS/2 users. It was just something that I wanted to do.

That's great, but what did you do for everone who bought your products and
didn't get the value for which they paid?

>I was the one who pulled the plug on InnoVal's direct involvement with
>OS/2 software. It was a financial thing that investors get concerned
>about. Add to that, that as a company, we were not good enough with
>support in the consumer marketplace. I thought we could be, but I was
>mistaken. The market wasn't there anymore. So blame me. Not InnoVal.

Fine.  You pissed off a LOT of people BEFORE you announced you were pulling
the plug and quite a few are not running OS/2 any longer.  Every time this
issue comes up in a discussion thread while you are personally participating,
Dan, you ALWAYS disappear, so I expect you won't disappoint us again.

>InnoVal, BTW, is lobbying for OS/2 solutions, support, etc. with AFST
>and its business partners and vendors. We are not doing so because we
>are emotionally attached to OS/2 but because, in some areas, it makes
>good business sense.

That is, until you decide to blow us off again, stop answering email, and the
cycle begins again until AFST tosses you off that project, too.

>Dan Porter, President
>InnoVal Systems Solutions, Inc.
>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

What happened, Dan, lost your ibm.net news access?

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: aboritz@cybernex.net                              12-Dec-99 09:11:13
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 14:24:13
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: aboritz@cybernex.net (Alan Boritz)

In article <82u89f$m08$1@nntp.itservices.ubc.ca>, isaacl@sonics.ece.ubc.ca
(e-frog) wrote:
>Bob Eager (rde@tavi.co.uk) wrote:
>: On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 07:45:35, andrew@netneurotic.de (Andrew J. Brehm)
>: wrote:
>
>: > Why? What's wrong with Innoval?
>
>: This is the company that quietly dropped support for, first, their
>: newsreader, then (not so quietly) BOTH their OS/2 mail clients.
>: Leaving loyal users out in the cold.
>
>I would disagree with this point of view.
>I mean first, when they decided to go Java, they let Post Road Mailer out
>for free. For everyone. That was nice.

No it wasn't.  It was a marketing move to try to get people to play with their
product in a less functional mode to entice them to buy the "full" version.
It's a common method to increase sales.  There was nothing "nice" about it,
since by that time they had already stopped supporting most of the customers
who paid full price.

>And then when they found that they couldn't pay their bills, they gave
>PLENTY of advanced warning that they would have to do some sort of major
>switch of business focus.
>JStreet mailer was nice, but since they didn't seem to plan on going on
>with it, it has been left to someone else to maintain, unofficially, and
>as far as I know it is available to everyone for FREE.

No, they didn't give "plenty" of advance warning, unless if you include the
bounced emails to "tech support."

>That's about as classy an exit as you can get.

Not hardly.  Accepting payments for Postroad News and Mail licenses AFTER they
had discontinued support is as far from classy as you can get.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: aboritz@cybernex.net                              12-Dec-99 09:20:01
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 14:24:13
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: aboritz@cybernex.net (Alan Boritz)

In article
<sXnyXDNIUu65-pn2-bIZk5nYBQJxh@207-172-184-121.s121.tnt6.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.co
m>, dboultr@spamfree.erols.com wrote:
>On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 23:48:45, rde@tavi.co.uk (Bob Eager) wrote:
>
>> That's what happened with their newsreader.
>
>Geez, Bob!  What's this all about??  They knew their newsreader was a
>piece of crap, pretty much beyond saving.

I'm sure that could be true, but what all the people who bought it with the
understanding that they weren't buying a dead-end product with absolutely no
support?

>There were at the time, and
>have been subsequently, a ton of newsreader choices for OS/2 users.
>We didn't loose anything when they gave up that market.

No, Doug, "a ton" there isn't, not hardly.  Depending upon your choice of
delivery, the choice is certainly less than 5.  The choice of NNTP (and mail)
clients with active support (now) is now down to 1.

>I haven't looked at MR2/ICE 2.0 yet, but PostRoad Mailer is still
>arguably the best mail reader we have.  I paid for it once, long long
>ago, and I've gotten two major releases for free.

Innoval's last two major releases were v2.00 and v3.00.  Are you trying to
tell us that you were given a free upgrade to v2.00 and then again to v3.00,
while the rest of the world had to pay?

>I still use PRM and am happy with it.

You appear to be a very undemanding user.

>I'm pretty sure I got the newsreader for free too.

Only if you got your registration key in a warez newsgroup, I'm afraid.  The
rest of us paid for it, and received no support assistance when it wouldn't
work.  Innoval never released a free registration code for that product.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: rsstan@ibm.net                                    12-Dec-99 12:19:26
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 16:45:14
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: "Bob Stan" <rsstan@ibm.net>

On Sun, 12 Dec 1999 15:10:57 GMT, innoval@ibm.net wrote:

>Let me address servers first. All ISP800 mail servers are Linux. Some
>webhosting is Linux and some is other Unix variants. I think one site
>is AIX. There are no NT servers anywhere in the ISP800 system. Let me
>stree that, NO NT SERVERS. 
Thanks for the info.  What exactly does no USENET access mean?  Does that
mean I could not access this newsgroup directly, but would have to go through
Dejanews?


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From: fwkirk@attglobal.net                              12-Dec-99 17:22:12
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 16:45:15
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: fwkirk@attglobal.net (Frank Kirk)

On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 01:32:00, Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com> wrote:

> Here's some hot news for all you NON-Warp City Members:
 
> FST Inc, has joined in a business partnership arrangement
> with National DialUp Services and InnoVal Systems Solutions,
> to provide a low-cost nationwide ISP service for OS/2 users.
> ISP800, a private brand ISP for corporate customers, is
> inaugurating service for consumers on January 3,  2000.

Tim,

	That's some of the best news I've heard in a while.  Thanks for 
posting it.

FWK

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: letoured@nospam.net                               12-Dec-99 00:11:03
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 16:45:15
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: letoured@nospam.net

larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg) said:

>> No. It about the continuing inability and/or refusal of you and few others
>> here to see reality and to use Humpty Dumpty definitions for the words you
>> choose to use. 

>Monopolies requiring a lack of competition?
>Coercion requiring the use of force to restrain?
>These are "Humpty Dumpty definitions"?

I have no idea what you are trying to state here.  Why don't you try
again. 

What kind of drugs are your buddies on up there -- I'm assuming they will
explain the behavior we see here since nothing displayed in these posts
indicates that any your group think normally or as intellectuals.



_____________
Ed Letourneau <letoured@sover.net>

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: letoured@nospam.net                               12-Dec-99 00:07:27
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 16:45:15
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: letoured@nospam.net

Joseph <josco@ibm.net> said:


>"E. Barry Bruyea" wrote:

>> Bill Gates isn't pissing on your leg and then telling you it's
>> raining, but Clinton gets a blow job and says it isn't sex.

>No one has pissed on my leg -- I'm confused by your baby talk  metaphors.
>Gates has bickered over the meaning of common words while underoath. 
>He's professed to not understanding e-mails he has written and not
>understood those to which he replied.  He insists MS is not  a monopoly
>and there is no PC market.  Sick isn't it !


You're trying to reason with someone who could give a blow job to Gates
and think he was invited in because of his intelligence.


_____________
Ed Letourneau <letoured@sover.net>

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: letoured@nospam.net                               11-Dec-99 23:55:25
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 16:45:15
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: letoured@nospam.net

Mr.  siberREMOVETHIS@sympatico.ca (E. Barry Bruyea)

Why are you assholes over here on an OS2 forum trying to tell how innocent
MS is? 



_____________
Ed Letourneau <letoured@sover.net>

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: jglatt@spamgone-borg.com                          12-Dec-99 18:02:17
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 16:45:15
Subj: Re: Jury scheduled to hear Caldera vs. Microsoft next January

From: jglatt@spamgone-borg.com (Jeff Glatt)

>Karel Jansens
>I'm trying to prove logical coherence

Then why are you doing it in an incoherent and illogical manner, for
example, blindly accepting "data" supplied by someone whose
credibility is extremely suspect after he has made numerous factual
errors that reveal his ignorance in the matters being discussed?

>as your claims don't 
>contradict anything I already know, I cannot verify them.

Well, there is your problem -- you don't seem to know much about
anything being discussed here. That's what people keep telling you --
you're clueless and naive.

About the only thing you've shown that you know how to do is
mindlessly make exceedingly dull small talk with your buddy Tholen,
and ineptly attempt to run interference for any kook who exhibits the
same overzealous boner for your pet product.

That isn't much at all.

>You want me to dismiss Bob's 
>story because he doesn't say nice things.

Among the "nice things" that he *doesn't* say is even a single thing
that can be verified as an actual fact. (Indeed, among those things
which he alleges are "facts", several have been debunked by numerous
people who cite sources for their *real* facts). But you blindly
believe him because you're clueless and naive and Boob is a fellow
OS/2 nutcase.

>>I am asking you to be
>>objective and logical.
 
>I'm so sorry not to meet your criteria.

Nor the criteria of others.

>Please do not generalise without reason.

HAHAHAHAH! This is truly hysterical coming from a buffoon who wants to
take Boob's alleged "anecdotes", devoid of any proof and rife with
factual errors, and forget all about whether they have any
truthfulness an actual, specific, realworld case, and instead
generalize without reason to "possible interpretations" about no
particular specific cases.

You're a clueless, naive hypocrite.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: jglatt@spamgone-borg.com                          12-Dec-99 18:19:22
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 16:45:15
Subj: Re: Jury scheduled to hear Caldera vs. Microsoft next January

From: jglatt@spamgone-borg.com (Jeff Glatt)

>>Ben
>>I second that. I've installed IE5 on every system in my
>>network using "Client Software" CD from TechNet.
>>...it does NOT require the installation path to be present.

>>Boob Germer
>>Well, this is absolutely immaterial. I am using the CD provided by MS not
>>whatever you are using.

>>TechNet is MS.

>>Brent Davies
>>Yes, Ben is right. TechNet is a Microsoft product used by anyone who
>>wants to provide a decent level of support to their Microsoft customers. 
>>The IE5 installation on my TechNet CD is EXACTLY the same as it is on
>>your CD.

>Boob Germer
>Our firm does not support Windows 9x.

Your "firm" is a ruse, much like your "anecdotes".

>Until you run the MS CD which DOES NOT COME THROUGH TECHNET on our
>clients' networks, you are unqualified to make the statements above. Until
>you have tried to run the MS CD, not the one from Technet, on my machine
>you are unqualified to make the above statement. Until you have run the MS
>CD on my ThinkPad 390e with the version of Win 98 installed by IBM, you
>are unqualified to make the above statement.

And yet, based upon that MS CD on his ThinkPad 390e with the version
of Win 98 installed by IBM, Boob Germer makes all sort of factually
incorrect statements about Windows and MS support, etc. In this case,
he incorrectly maintains that it requires the installation path to be
present before installation.

Now, here's the million dollar question: Does anyone here, who has
read the above exchange, actually believe Boob's above, factless,
desperate denial after Boob's numerous factual errors have been
pointed out by several people in this thread. Does anyone actually
believe that Boob really does know what he's talking about? Does
anyone believe that he actually does what he claims to have done?

(Ok, I realize that Karel Jensens is willing to blindly believe
anything that Germer types, but that's because Karel gladly sides with
any kook who has a boner for his pet product -- OS/2. And Karel
especially loves the ones who foam at the mouth about MS while doing
so, for example, Germer. But is there anyone, who isn't a kook like
Karel, who still believes Boob's tall tales?)

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: jglatt@spamgone-borg.com                          12-Dec-99 18:22:02
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 16:45:15
Subj: Re: When will it be 100% done?

From: jglatt@spamgone-borg.com (Jeff Glatt)

>Boob Germer
>you prove your total lack of a germ of an intellect.

On the other hand, Boob's "intellect" certainly has germs. That's
because his mind is obviously diseased

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: jglatt@spamgone-borg.com                          12-Dec-99 18:26:15
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 16:45:15
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: jglatt@spamgone-borg.com (Jeff Glatt)

>Boob Germer
>By the way, I have the right to provide as much information as I can glean
>about you to the Teamster's Union and Roofer's Union Locals in
>Philadelphia which have a history of physically harming those who dare to
>disagree with them.

>If you refuse to accept that I am not a facist, I may be forced to become
>one in your case.

"Bob Germer makes quite a lot of sense." -- Karel Jensens

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: jglatt@spamgone-borg.com                          12-Dec-99 18:31:02
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 16:45:15
Subj: Re: Amodeo digest, volume 2451525

From: jglatt@spamgone-borg.com (Jeff Glatt)

>tholenAntiSpam@hawaii.edu
>Marty is becoming more like Jeff Glatt every day.

That is true in that he has come to realize what a dimwitted,
self-absorbed, hypocritical, inconsistent, illogical,
literal-to-the-point-of-dense, deceitful wretch of a human being you
are.

But then, many, many people have also discovered that to be the case.
Would like me to post a digest of comments about you from your
numerous "fans"?

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: stuartf@datacom.co.nz                             13-Dec-99 07:32:12
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 16:45:15
Subj: Re: Jury scheduled to hear Caldera vs. Microsoft next January

From: "Stuart Fox" <stuartf@datacom.co.nz>

Boob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com> wrote in message
news:3853b3d9$9$obot$mr2ice@news.pics.com...
> On <dmI44.1004$ds3.21279@news1.alsv1.occa.home.com>, on 12/12/99 at 07:43
> AM,
>    "Brent Davies" <brentdaviesNOSPAM@home.com> said:
>
> > Yes, Ben is right.  TechNet is a Microsoft product used by anyone who
> > wants to provide a decent level of support to their Microsoft customers.
> > The IE5 installation on my TechNet CD is EXACTLY the same as it is on
> > your CD.  The only difference is that IE5 is in its own directory on the
> > CD, along with many other utilities on the same CD, more efficiently
> > utilizing the space.  There is no difference between the two CDs where
> > the IE5 installation process is concerned.  Run setup, reboot once,
> > login, allow setup to modify the user's settings.  No second reboot.
>
> Our firm does not support Windows 9x. We support applications, hardware,
> their network, but we do not resolve Windows 9x problems or applications
> beyond those necessary for network support.
>
> Until you run the MS CD which DOES NOT COME THROUGH TECHNET on our
> clients' networks, you are unqualified to make the statements above. Until
> you have tried to run the MS CD, not the one from Technet, on my machine
> you are unqualified to make the above statement. Until you have run the MS
> CD on my ThinkPad 390e with the version of Win 98 installed by IBM, you
> are unqualified to make the above statement. --

I've run them both - and guess what Boob?  No intermediate reboots.


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: jglatt@spamgone-borg.com                          12-Dec-99 18:36:07
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 16:45:15
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: jglatt@spamgone-borg.com (Jeff Glatt)

>William Sonna
>Innoval, in contrast, was exemplary in the manner in which they left 
>the OS/2 maketplace.

What's so exemplary about leaving the OS/2 marketplace? Virtually all
commercial OS/2 developers have done so by now, and I have no doubt
that countless other developers have done so too. Hell, a great number
of endusers have done so too. It's not like leaving behind OS/2 is
uncommon. Just ask IBM and they'll tell you (in a leaked memo,
probably)

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: josco@ibm.net                                     12-Dec-99 10:59:04
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 16:45:15
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net>


"E. Barry Bruyea" wrote:

> On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 18:51:38 -0500, Joseph <josco@ibm.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >"E. Barry Bruyea" wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 15:05:05 -0500, Joseph <josco@ibm.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >"E. Barry Bruyea" wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 16:05:39 GMT, Chris J Delanoy
> >> >> <cdelanoy@ualberta.ca> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> You and a handful of others here are the only irrational beings
> >> >> >> here.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Irrationality is the act of saying - and believing - that companies
> >> >> >can simultaneously charge prices that are above AND below market
> >> >> >prices.  Irrationality is the act of saying - and believing - that
> >> >> >you are being forced against your will to use a product, while at
> >> >> >the same time you declare at the bottom of every message you post
> >> >> >that you do NOT use that product.
> >> >>
> >> >> It's the Bill Clinton approach.
> >> >
> >> >And of Bill Gates.
> >>
> >> Bill Gates isn't pissing on your leg and then telling you it's
> >> raining, but Clinton gets a blow job and says it isn't sex.
> >
> >No one has pissed on my leg -- I'm confused by your baby talk  metaphors.
>
> And were all wondering just how thick one person can be, but I have to
> admit, you're clearing that up pretty damn fast.

I have a problem understanding vulgar metaphors.   It's probably because  I
don't encounter them in my day-to-day life and I don't use them in
conversation
at work or home.  The vulgarities which are second nature to you tend to be
confusing to other people.

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From: larso@commodore.                                  12-Dec-99 19:19:08
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 19:56:10
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg)

As I stepped out onto the Stoop, I saw Bob Germer write:
> On <82ueeo$2rb$9@burn.ab.videon.ca>, on 12/11/99 at 09:07 PM,
>    larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg) said:
> 
> > I'm not misreading.  Bob's attempt to "blame" the extra cost on Michelin
> > wasn't valid.
> 
> You are a liar. You also posted this AFTER replying to a subsequent
> message of mine explaining to you that you had misread what I posted.

The fact remains that in your example, you said you would have to spend an
extra $5000 to get the Range Rover instead of the Jeep 'because Range Rover
did not have a [Michelin-tire] agreemment'.

But since there was no deal between Range Rover and Michelin, then no
agreement could be responsible for that extra price.


-- 
Lars P. Ormberg     ICQ#:8827066
mailto:larso@ualberta.ca
The University of Lars:   http://www.ualberta.ca/~larso/

"The way you're bathed in light, reminds me of that night
God laid me down into your rose garden of trust and I was
swept away with nothin' left to say some helpless fool
yeah I was lost in a swoon of peace you're all I need to
find so when the time is right come to me sweetly, come
to me come to me..love will lead us, alright.  love will
lead us, she will lead us.  can you hear the dolphin's
cry?  see the road rise up to meet us its in the air we
breathe tonight love will lead us, she will lead us"
                            -Live, "The Dolphin's Cry"

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: larso@commodore.                                  12-Dec-99 19:14:03
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 19:56:10
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg)

As I stepped out onto the Stoop, I saw Bob Germer write:
>    "Wolf Kirchmeir" <greywolf@onlink.net> said:
> 
> > You continually talk as if no one had any responsibilities to anyone. If
> > you really believe that, you can't justify objections to anything anyone
> > might do to you. So you don't like it! So what? If my only
> > responsibility is to myself, why should I care whether you like it or
> > not? I'll do what I like, and if it kills you, too bad.
> 
> Exactly. Using Lars P. Omberg's infantile attempt at logic, I should be
> able to drive down the Queen Elizabeth II highway at 200 KPH in my Viper.
> I know the law says I cannot exceed 100 KPH (in some areas at least if
> memory serves), but I have decided that the law is invalid and that no
> one's speed should be regulated by governments.

If you can safely drive 200, why not?

>                                                Therefore it is perfectly
> right and moral for me to do 200 regardless of the harm I am likely to
> cause to others on the road.

The only harm you'll cause is from hitting somebody...and its just as
possible to do so at half the speed.

> The man is such an idiot and liar that he claimed I didn't know who he was

It's a logical conclusion from a man who one day says that he's sent 30 of
"my posts" to the President of the University of Alberta (which will be
worth an aside later), but then we see this exchange:

BG: But you claim that no government ever did anything good for the people.
By your logic, providing a police force is bad.

SB: I didn't actually make that particular claim.

BG: You fucking well did make that claim.  It is in one of the messages sent
to the President of the University of Alberta.

-

Now, as I point out in a message I sent December 4th, the claim was not made
by Steve, but by Chris.  The interesting note is that those posts by Steve
and Chris on that topic didn't mention me at all.  Here you not only say
that the claim made it into the snail mail package, but also misattribute
it.

Why one of Chris' comments mistaken for Steve's comment is sent as an
example of a Lars Ormberg post is interesting indeed.  The best explanation?
A complete lack of understanding who is who.  Though I'm sure Steven will
get a kick out of being a UofA student again.

> or that I knew where his website was. This despite the fact that he posted
> the website information in many messages until I started communicating
> with the officials at the University of Alberta.

Ignoring your mistaken claim of an alteration where none occured, I point to
the "admissions records" link on my main page where there is only *one*
entry from Bob's ISP picsonline.net and that the entry was made at 6:15 on
the morning of the twelfth.

In fact, one can go back to August in the logs and still find only the one
visit from Bob.

Thank you, by the way, for visiting the University of Lars.

> For the record, the website address is www.ualberta.ca/~larso. On one of
> the pages of absolute insane illogic, irrational ranting, and downright
> idiotic statements, one finds a six page biography. It is called the
> Faculty of the "University of Lars."

Actually, it's the Faculty of Lars.  All Faculties are a Faculty of the
University.

> He includes a picture of himself. He bears a striking resemblance to
> Jeffrey Dahlmer.

Actually, I've been more called a cross between Brad Pitt and Jim Carrey.
(Even mistaken for Brad Pitt, by Brad Pitt fans, on a couple occasions).


-- 
Lars P. Ormberg     ICQ#:8827066
mailto:larso@ualberta.ca
The University of Lars:   http://www.ualberta.ca/~larso/

"The way you're bathed in light, reminds me of that night
God laid me down into your rose garden of trust and I was
swept away with nothin' left to say some helpless fool
yeah I was lost in a swoon of peace you're all I need to
find so when the time is right come to me sweetly, come
to me come to me..love will lead us, alright.  love will
lead us, she will lead us.  can you hear the dolphin's
cry?  see the road rise up to meet us its in the air we
breathe tonight love will lead us, she will lead us"
                            -Live, "The Dolphin's Cry"

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               12-Dec-99 14:36:10
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 19:56:10
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Bob Germer wrote:
> 
> Your attitude defys [sic] logic. Your positions defy the reality of a
society.

BG] "Since you are a Canuck, your opinoin [sic] is worth less than garbage."

BG] "Typical conduct of an Arab terrorist. You can't win a rational 
BG]  argument so you attempt to blow others up."

KJ] Bob Germer makes quite a lot of sense.

KJ] You see, I'm trying to prove logical coherence in a chain of 
KJ] (recorded) events, not so much finding out whether the events 
KJ] depicted have correlation with reality.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: larso@commodore.                                  12-Dec-99 19:26:09
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 19:56:10
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg)

As I stepped out onto the Stoop, I saw Bob Germer write:
>    "Wolf Kirchmeir" <greywolf@onlink.net> said:
> 
> > I'm not willing to pay for the other plane, that's all. Why should I?
> > And why should it be considered moral for a company to try to unload
> > something on me by tieing it to the product that I want to buy from
> > them? That's coercion, no matter how you slice it.
> 
> Ah, Wolf, you are wasting your time. I wonder how the "genius" would like
> it were he a diabetic for whom CocaCola was poison and Coke gained
> sufficient market penentration that he could force old larso to buy a 32
> ounce Coke (non diet of course) with every BigMac.

Sure.  I guess, in that case, that if I wanted to buy a Big Mac, I'd buy a
32 ounce glass of poison too.

If I refused to buy the Coke, I guess I'd refuse the whole Big Mac.  I'd
fill out one of those "how did we do at serving you" cards and explain the
situation, that I would appreciate being able to buy the Mac without the
Coke.  McDonalds then has two options: stop selling the Coke with the Big
Mac (if they're under a contract with Coke, they can approach Coke with this
proposition of changing the agreement to allow this...Coke can then refuse
or accept with similar consequences as McDonalds has with me) or lose
customers who don't appreciate their new business policy.  The ball is in
their court.  They are the ones with the ability to make the call.

Am I harmed?  Only if I drink the Coke...which in this case would mean I
would be harmed SOLELY by my own stupidity.  I couldn't with any rationality
claim McDonalds and/or Coke were responsible for what I did.



-- 
Lars P. Ormberg     ICQ#:8827066
mailto:larso@ualberta.ca
The University of Lars:   http://www.ualberta.ca/~larso/

"The way you're bathed in light, reminds me of that night
God laid me down into your rose garden of trust and I was
swept away with nothin' left to say some helpless fool
yeah I was lost in a swoon of peace you're all I need to
find so when the time is right come to me sweetly, come
to me come to me..love will lead us, alright.  love will
lead us, she will lead us.  can you hear the dolphin's
cry?  see the road rise up to meet us its in the air we
breathe tonight love will lead us, she will lead us"
                            -Live, "The Dolphin's Cry"

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               12-Dec-99 14:43:17
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 19:56:10
Subj: Re: Amodeo digest, volume 2451525

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Jeff Glatt wrote:
> 
> >tholenAntiSpam@hawaii.edu
> >Marty is becoming more like Jeff Glatt every day.
> 
> That is true in that he has come to realize what a dimwitted,
> self-absorbed, hypocritical, inconsistent, illogical,
> literal-to-the-point-of-dense, deceitful wretch of a human being you
> are.
> 
> But then, many, many people have also discovered that to be the case.
> Would like me to post a digest of comments about you from your
> numerous "fans"?

Go for it.  Haven't seen it in quite a while myself, and I sure several Mac
folks would be interested as well.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: sbritton@cadvision.com                            12-Dec-99 12:31:09
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 19:56:10
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com>

Bob Germer wrote:
>
> Ah, Wolf, you are wasting your time. I wonder how the "genius" would like
> it were he a diabetic for whom CocaCola was poison and Coke gained
> sufficient market penentration that he could force old larso to buy a 32
> ounce Coke (non diet of course) with every BigMac. I use that example
> because he lists Big Mac's as one of his favorite foods on the website I
> never saw and don't know where its address.

Nobody is forcing Lars to buy a Big Mac.  The point is that if that was the
case, he'd just choose to buy his hamburgers elsewhere -- despite the Big
Mac being his favourite.

Just because you like something doesn't mean you have a right to it.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
What have YOU done to bust a union today?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Work better: Work union-free.

Steven C. Britton
Calgary

www.cadvision.com/sbritton



--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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(1:109/42)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: sbritton@cadvision.com                            12-Dec-99 12:38:17
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 19:56:10
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com>

Wolf Kirchmeir wrote:
>
> That depends on whether the buyer is the end user of the product, or a
> distributor. Distributors must cater to those customers who (might) want
some
> other makers' products.

That's fine.  Westburne sells exclusive Allen Bradley.  People who want
other products shop elsewhere.  If Allen Bradley was able to sign 100% of
the distributors, the other manufacturers would have to find alternative
ways of distributing their products.

That's competition.

> If they don't, the consequence might well be that those other makers go
out of business -- not because their
> product was poorer value, but because their potential customers couldn't
access them, and
> therefore couldn't choose.

The nature of competition would force the other manufacturers to find
another way of selling their products or go out of business, yes.

Welcome to the real world.

> In that case, the exclusive contract between maker and distributor has the
effect of limiting
> competition, and that's bad.

It doesn't limit competition.  It just means that Allen Bradley is doing it
better than everyone else, which, in turn, forces everybody else to either
improve or go out of business.

> But then, you see, I believe that the only basis of competition
> should be value.  IOW, only the end-users choices matter.

The basis of competition isn't value; though.  It never will be.  It's a
matter of who can market and sell their products better.

Windows is an inferior product; but it's not relevent.

> =>If 100% of automation distributors want to sell Allen Bradley, there is
> =>nothing morally wrong with it.
>
> Oh yes there is. That would eliminate customers' ability to choose. That's
> wrong.

It doesn't though -- because the other manufacturers would have to sell
their products direct.

> OTOH, if 100% of  the >>customers<< decide they want Allan Bradley
products,
> that's OK. It's the customers who must have the choice, not anyone else in
> the chain of supply.

Sure; that's true.  It then becomes the responsibility of the other
manufacturers to show that their particular products have better value than
A-B's.  Customers only buy for two reasons: to gain a benefit or to avoid a
loss.  It is the responsibility of the manufacturers to show that benefit,
or how the customer will avoid a loss.  That responsibility belongs to
NOBODY else.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
What have YOU done to bust a union today?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Work better: Work union-free.

Steven C. Britton
Calgary

www.cadvision.com/sbritton



--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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(1:109/42)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: larso@commodore.                                  12-Dec-99 19:48:03
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 19:56:10
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg)

As I stepped out onto the Stoop, I saw Bob Germer write:
>    larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg) said:
> 
> > > And if the contract states you must break the law in some fashion?  Is
> > > that a legal contract?
> 
> > Legal, no.  But if the law you'd be breaking is unjust, then the
> > contract should be legal since the unjust thing wouldn't exist.
> 
> If you passed Logic, then the UofAlberta is as big a joke as you are.

I take it you never passed Ethics.  So ponder this again...

A contract isn't legal if it requires you to do something illegal.

But if the 'something' in question SHOULDN'T BE illegal, then having the
clause in the contract shouldn't be illegal either.  And therefore having
the clause in the contract is perfectly just.

> Get Mommy to explain this to you.
> 
> Oh, you can't. Test tubes can't talk.

I'm sure the insults are really helping your case.

-- 
Lars P. Ormberg     ICQ#:8827066
mailto:larso@ualberta.ca
The University of Lars:   http://www.ualberta.ca/~larso/

"The way you're bathed in light, reminds me of that night
God laid me down into your rose garden of trust and I was
swept away with nothin' left to say some helpless fool
yeah I was lost in a swoon of peace you're all I need to
find so when the time is right come to me sweetly, come
to me come to me..love will lead us, alright.  love will
lead us, she will lead us.  can you hear the dolphin's
cry?  see the road rise up to meet us its in the air we
breathe tonight love will lead us, she will lead us"
                            -Live, "The Dolphin's Cry"

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               12-Dec-99 15:03:10
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 19:56:10
Subj: Re: When will it be 100% done?

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Bob Germer wrote:
> 
> On <3852D25F.C2686D5C@stny.rr.com>, on 12/11/99 at 05:38 PM,
>    Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> said:
> 
> > > Marty, another MS whore like you,
> 
> > Poor Bob doesn't have a clue, does he?  I'm more of an OS/2 advocate
> > than he is.  [Hint for boob:  check my message headers, then search Deja
> > for articles in other os2 groups posted by me]
> 
> Bullshit. You are a liar about so many things,

Such as...?

> I don't believe you use or are capable of using OS/2.

Well Boob... check the message headers for one thing.  Then take a stroll over
to http://emuos2.vintagegaming.com.  And when you're done wrenching your foot
out of your mouth, then tell me I'm not "capable of using OS/2".

> > > deliberately took statements out of context in another newsgroup.
> 
> > How does one take:
> > "Since you are a Canuck, your opinoin is worth less than garbage."
> 
> You took it out of context as you well know.

The statement was overly generalized, as you well know.  Your excuses do
little
to cover that up.

> I was speaking of Canadian's opinions having any value whatsoever in our 
> courts in general and in the MS case in particular. Something of no value 
> whatsoever is garbage.

And the reasoning behind this would be..?  (I mean besides prejudice.)

> > "Typical conduct of an Arab terrorist. You can't win a rational argument
> > so you attempt to blow others up."
> 
> > out of context?  They are all-inclusive statements.  That's what racism
> > is all about.
> 
> Again you lie.

You are erroneously presupposing that I lied before.

> It is not an all-inclusive statement. It merely says, as I explained at 
> length which you choose to ignore to try to give your lies the veneer of 
> validity, I was differentiating between those who break the law because of
> thier heritage from madmen like McVey, the Unabomber, etc.

Sorry Boob, but you made the original statement to Ali (aka Hobbyist) and this
pathetic excuse does not fit into that discussion at all.  Here's the original
context back.  Note the lack of discussion of breaking laws due to heritage
vs.
madmen:
 
BG] I am just short of my 60th birthday.

AM] How can you be that age and yet act like an asshole so much???!!! 
AM] The years should incur a level of maturity which puts you above the 
AM] sort of behaviour you display here on usenet.
AM] Tsk. Tsk.
AM] Yes, it is a personal attack. Just up your street BTW.

BG] Typical conduct of an Arab terrorist. You can't win a rational argument 
BG] so you attempt to blow others up.

Sorry.  Your pathetic excuse cannot cover this one up.

> > > He was slapped down hard about Canuck being a totally acceptable
reference to
> > > Canadians.
> 
> > "Since you are a Canuck, your opinoin is worth less than garbage."
> 
> > I never said anything about the word Canuck, Boob.  I took exception to
> > the generalization about the opinions of Canadians as being prejudicial.
> > Amazing you haven't realized that yet.
> 
> There is a vast difference between predjudice and irrrelevancy.

Right.  And you've demonstrated both.

> > > One even pointed out that the National Hockey League team in Vancouver
is
> > > called the Canucks.
> 
> > Good for them.  I suppose the opinions of said hockey team are worth
> > "less than garbage" too, eh Boob?
> 
> When it comes to the anti-trust suit in question here, absolutely.

Everyone has the right to an opinion, Bob (your prejudice notwithstanding).

> > > And as I clearly stated the term Arab terrorist was used to
differentiate
> > > between true believers (Arab terrorists) who are acting according to
their
> > > training and belief as opposed to nut cases like the Unabomber or the
> > > school shooters who are mentally ill at best.
> 
> > Nice try boob, but putting the statement back in context, as you wanted
> > to do above, your statement toward Ali (aka Hobbyist) had no such
> > intended meaning.
> 
> You are absolutely wrong. You are as wrong as Lars Ormberg claiming that
> MS is not a monopoly.

Nice pontification.  Here's the articles in question:
http://x29.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=548720410&search=thread&CONTEXT=945
027566.1026162764&HIT_CONTEXT=945027566.1026162764&HIT_NUM=4&hitnum=16
http://x29.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=549012825&search=thread&CONTEXT=945
027566.1026162764&HIT_CONTEXT=945027566.1026162764&HIT_NUM=4&hitnum=19

Note well the lack of discussion of breaking laws due to heritage vs. madmen. 
Then come back and tell me I'm "absolutely wrong".

> > > But the truth has no impact on sociopaths like you.
> 
> > How ironic, coming from the sociopath who said:
> > "Since you are a Canuck, your opinoin is worth less than garbage."
> > "Typical conduct of an Arab terrorist. You can't win a rational argument
> > so you attempt to blow others up."
> 
> Again, Marty, you prove your total lack of a germ of an intellect.

How long will you persist with your lies?

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: sbritton@cadvision.com                            12-Dec-99 12:53:12
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 19:56:10
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com>

Bob Germer wrote:
>
> > Only a fascist would try to harm another because they have a different
> > opinion.
>
> Society sets limits upon individual freedom within carefully defined laws
> to protect the minority. That Ormberg has the right to print (broad
> definition) his assinine opinions is absolute SO LONG AS THOSE RANTINGS DO
> NOT VIOLATE THE RULES OF THE ORGANIZATION HE CLAIMS TO REPRESENT.

Lars doesn't claim to represent the U of A.

> That organization, not a government, has a right to protect its good name.
If
> Ormberg were an employee of MicroSoft and posted that Bill Gates was a
> thief, a liar, etc. on MS's equipment, he would be fired and rightly so.

Very true.  If Lars were employed by the U of A, you would have a valid
argument.

He isn't -- he's a student there.  Students do not represent their
university.

> Likewise, if the University of Alberta has rules against activity which
> disgraces, demeans, etc . the name of the University, it has the right to
> expel him.

The U of A, like all universities, is supposed to be a school which
advocates freedom of thought and expression.  That means that they have to
advocate and sanction Lars' right to express his beliefs just as much as
some crazed left-wing lunatic.

As long as Lars isn't advocating gay-bashing, lynchings, or harming people
with whom he disagrees (which he isn't doing), he should have the right to
say what he wants -- regardless of what server he happens to post from.

It is you, Bob, who is trying to harm Lars simply because he has a different
opinion.  Your simple motivation for seeking out his school is solely based
on your hatred of him based on his different opinion.

That, not only is bigotry, but is also the way the Nazis and Fascists
operated.

> By the way, I have the right to provide as much information as I can glean
> about you to the Teamster's Union and Roofer's Union Locals in
> Philadelphia which have a history of physically harming those who dare to
> disagree with them.

That is a fascist practise.

Union goons don't fighten me, though...

> Members of the Teamsters including officers of the local have been
convicted of
> beating an anti-Clinton protestor in front of TV cameras. Members of the
roofers union
> have been convicted of killing non-union construction workers.
>
> Were I a facist, I would investigate you thoroughly and do exactly that.
> If you refuse to accept that I am not a facist, I may be forced to become
> one in your case.

Believe what you want.  Threatening me and attempting to intimidate me is
yet another proof of my point, though -- that you are acting in a fascistic
manner.

The fascists and nazis also used intimidation, beatings, and threats of such
as a method of silencing their opposition.

It didn't work, it doesn't work, and it won't work.

Someone could kill me and somebody else would simply take my place.  My
ideology isn't limited to just me.  It is shared by the vast majority of
people.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
What have YOU done to bust a union today?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Work better: Work union-free.

Steven C. Britton
Calgary

www.cadvision.com/sbritton



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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: larso@commodore.                                  12-Dec-99 19:58:26
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 19:56:10
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg)

As I stepped out onto the Stoop, I saw letoured@nospam.net write:
> larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg) said:

> >So in other words, a company isn't allowed to give a discount for
> >behaviour that they like?
> 
> In the US -- No

Then a company in the U.S. is not free.

It cannot give "club members" a discount?  Nor family members?  Nor favoured
customers?  Nor sell its product cheaply in return for promotion?

> >Most discounts come with a condition.  So did MS's.  And you cry and
> >scream about it.
> 
> Yea, and they violate their license agreement that states I can refund.

Then take them to court on that!

-- 
Lars P. Ormberg     ICQ#:8827066
mailto:larso@ualberta.ca
The University of Lars:   http://www.ualberta.ca/~larso/

"The way you're bathed in light, reminds me of that night
God laid me down into your rose garden of trust and I was
swept away with nothin' left to say some helpless fool
yeah I was lost in a swoon of peace you're all I need to
find so when the time is right come to me sweetly, come
to me come to me..love will lead us, alright.  love will
lead us, she will lead us.  can you hear the dolphin's
cry?  see the road rise up to meet us its in the air we
breathe tonight love will lead us, she will lead us"
                            -Live, "The Dolphin's Cry"

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: sbritton@cadvision.com                            12-Dec-99 13:00:22
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 19:56:10
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com>

Don Wagner wrote:
> > >
> > > Cutler Hammer RULES!!!!!! :)
> >
> > Crappy Hammer?  It's almost as bad as Telemickeymouse.
>
> You mean TeleSquaredSchneider?
>
> Besides Cutler Hammer has way nicer jackets and a GORGEOUS
> lady to answer the phone in Richmond.

Big deal.  At ISA shows, some people hire Booth Babes to attract
prospects...

I'd rather have the superior product, thanks.

> Don't you wish YOU had the Advantage starter?

Not when I can move the superior Sirius 3R, Furnas, and Siemens motors
(which blow everyone out of the water).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
What have YOU done to bust a union today?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Work better: Work union-free.

Steven C. Britton
Calgary

www.cadvision.com/sbritton



--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: float@incandescent.firedrake.org                  12-Dec-99 19:50:18
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 19:56:10
Subj: Re: Jury scheduled to hear Caldera vs. Microsoft next January

From: float@incandescent.firedrake.org (void)

Please watch your attributions!

In article <3855e340.3263887@news.borg.com>, Jeff Glatt wrote:
>>>Ben
>>>I second that. I've installed IE5 on every system in my
>>>network using "Client Software" CD from TechNet.
>>>...it does NOT require the installation path to be present.

I've never installed IE5 anywhere, nor have I ever owned any CD coming
from TechNet.  I never touch Microsoft products if I can help it at all.

All I did was point out that Bob's distinction between TechNet and MS
was absurd, since TechNet is a service provided by MS -- it would be
like saying that I used a FreeBSD install from cdrom.com instead of
Walnut Creek.

Of course, I wouldn't put it past Microsoft to ship one CD stamped
"Microsoft" and another stamped "TechNet", with a different set of bugs
but the same serial number.

-- 
 Ben

[X] YES! I'm a brain-damaged lemur on crack, and I'd like to
    order your software package for $459.95!

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: sbritton@cadvision.com                            12-Dec-99 13:03:28
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 19:56:10
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com>

Tim Rosnau wrote:

> "Steven C. Britton" wrote:
> >
> > Only a fascist would try to harm another because they have a different
> > opinion.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> > What have YOU done to bust a union today?
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--

> This is really intelligent coming from a guy who is in favor of
> union busting.

Yes.

I advocate union busting.  That does not mean I advocate harm to individual
union members.  It means that I advocate the decertification and breaking up
of unions.

For too long, union goons and their rent-a-mob tactics of threats and
intimidation have harmed the owners of reputable corporations, and it is
time for this crap to stop.

Anything which undermines a union's influence is good.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
What have YOU done to bust a union today?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Work better: Work union-free.

Steven C. Britton
Calgary

www.cadvision.com/sbritton



--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: jack.troughton@nospam.videotron.ca                12-Dec-99 20:04:09
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 19:56:10
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: jack.troughton@nospam.videotron.ca (Jack Troughton)

On Sun, 12 Dec 1999 03:40:58, larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg) wrote:

êAs I stepped out onto the Stoop, I saw Forrest Gehrke write:
ê> Lars P Ormberg wrote:
Û
ê> > Oh, Canada has this lunacy too.  Even more powerful than the antitrust
laws
ê> > in the U.S.  Propane companies are unable to merge for "the public good",
ê> > and the law explicitly states that a lack of evidence is no hindrance on
ê> > successful prosecution.
ê> 
ê> Thank you for finally responding. I was sure the Canadian
ê> government would not subscribe to the lunacy of your
ê> point of view, though they do emulate it very well
ê> for the medical discipline.
Û
êIn Health Care, Canada runs a monopoly.  A _real_ monopoly.
Û
êTry to get Health Care outside the government company, you are sent to jail.
êTry to provide Health Care outside the government, you are sent to jail.
Û
êCompare that with when you try to sell an operating system competing with
êMicrosoft...and you don't go to jail.

Here, let's try this one on for size. Going to jail is a bagatelle for
sissies. It can't REALLY be a monopoly unless the penalty is summary 
execution.  Therefore, the health system is not a monopoly.

This is the level at which you are arguing. It's not very successful.

ê> > > Please look into it and report back what that law has
ê> > > to say about predatory pricing.
ê> > 
ê> > Oh, you mean the laws stating that any business practise is illegal?
ê> > 
ê> Of course: that's what antitrust laws usually do.
Û
êOh, joy.
Û
êYou don't find _anything_ wrong with that?
Û

Let's see, Capone used to kill his competitors. That was a business 
practice. It's also illegal. You can't use any business practice you 
want, you are only allowed the business practices permissable under 
the law.

So, I personally don't find anything wrong with that.

You really should take a course in basic logic sometime. You need the 
help.

Once again, someone has added comp.os.os2.misc to the thread. This is 
extremely rude, but is not really that much of a surprise to me, 
considering some of the people in this thread. I have removed it from 
the headers.

Jack Troughton   ICQ:7494149
http://jakesplace.dhs.org
jack.troughton at videotron.ca
jake at jakesplace.dhs.org
MontrÚal PQ Canada

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net                            12-Dec-99 20:08:28
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 19:56:10
Subj: Re: When will it be 100% done?

From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens)

On Sun, 12 Dec 1999 14:25:23, Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com> 
wrote:

> On <3852D25F.C2686D5C@stny.rr.com>, on 12/11/99 at 05:38 PM,
>    Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> said:
>   
> > > Marty, another MS whore like you,
> 
> > Poor Bob doesn't have a clue, does he?  I'm more of an OS/2 advocate
> > than he is.  [Hint for boob:  check my message headers, then search Deja
> > for articles in other os2 groups posted by me]
> 
> Bullshit. You are a liar about so many things, I don't believe you use or
> are capable of using OS/2.
> 
Whoa, there!

Marty is one of the co-developers of MAME for OS/2, the extremely 
useful (well, if you like games, it is <G>) arcade machine emulator. 
He has made it possible for me to suck at "Bomb Jack" at my own 
monitor (when before I had to publicly humiliate myself in order to 
play it).

Bash Marty for anything you want, but not for being bad at OS/2!

[snipped the rest, to avoid repetition]

Karel Jansens
jansens_at_attglobal_dot_net
=======================================================
"The method employed I would gladly explain,
While I have it so clear in my head,
If I had but the time and you had but the brain -
But much yet remains to be said."

the Hunting of the Snark (Lewis Carroll)
=======================================================

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: larso@commodore.                                  12-Dec-99 20:05:09
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 19:56:10
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg)

As I stepped out onto the Stoop, I saw Bob Germer write:
>    larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg) said:
> 
> > Most discounts come with a condition.  So did MS's.  And you cry and
> > scream about it.
> 
> But those conditions violate US law.

Those laws are unjust violations of freedoms.  They should not exist.

> As far as you are concerned, you aren't in the US.

A violation of freedomm is a violation of freedom.

-- 
Lars P. Ormberg     ICQ#:8827066
mailto:larso@ualberta.ca
The University of Lars:   http://www.ualberta.ca/~larso/

"The way you're bathed in light, reminds me of that night
God laid me down into your rose garden of trust and I was
swept away with nothin' left to say some helpless fool
yeah I was lost in a swoon of peace you're all I need to
find so when the time is right come to me sweetly, come
to me come to me..love will lead us, alright.  love will
lead us, she will lead us.  can you hear the dolphin's
cry?  see the road rise up to meet us its in the air we
breathe tonight love will lead us, she will lead us"
                            -Live, "The Dolphin's Cry"

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: jwlarson@jvlnet.com                               12-Dec-99 20:11:00
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 19:56:10
Subj: Late breaking news ... he was at Warpstock

From: jwlarson@jvlnet.com (Jim Larson)

See HIM before the Warp-God!

http://www.jvlnet.com/~jwlarson/cgi-bin/display.cgi?bgos2

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: OS2Guy@WarpCity.com                               12-Dec-99 12:37:04
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 19:56:10
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com>

Alan Boritz wrote:

> Wipe your chin, take your kneepads, and get out of here, Timmy.

Statements such as this confirm to all the
whining ass/fool you continually demonstrate
yourself to be.

Tim Martin
The OS/2 Guy
Warp City
http://warpcity.com

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From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net                            12-Dec-99 20:36:25
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 19:56:10
Subj: Re: Jury scheduled to hear Caldera vs. Microsoft next January

From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens)

Look, if you want to attribute to a discussion, then at least do as 
such.

All you seem to be capable off is mindlessly repeating the same few 
slogans over and over again. You don't ever bring new ideas, you don't
even seem to be able to read other people's posts. In fact, all you 
are is annoying, like a little kid that keeps yapping in a grown-ups's
discussion. Do you really want to be sent to bed?


On Sun, 12 Dec 1999 18:02:35, jglatt@spamgone-borg.com (Jeff Glatt) 
wrote:

> >Karel Jansens
> >I'm trying to prove logical coherence
> 
> Then why are you doing it in an incoherent and illogical manner, for
> example, blindly accepting "data" supplied by someone whose
> credibility is extremely suspect after he has made numerous factual
> errors that reveal his ignorance in the matters being discussed?
> 
> >as your claims don't 
> >contradict anything I already know, I cannot verify them.
> 
> Well, there is your problem -- you don't seem to know much about
> anything being discussed here. That's what people keep telling you --
> you're clueless and naive.
> 
> About the only thing you've shown that you know how to do is
> mindlessly make exceedingly dull small talk with your buddy Tholen,
> and ineptly attempt to run interference for any kook who exhibits the
> same overzealous boner for your pet product.
> 
> That isn't much at all.
> 
> >You want me to dismiss Bob's 
> >story because he doesn't say nice things.
> 
> Among the "nice things" that he *doesn't* say is even a single thing
> that can be verified as an actual fact. (Indeed, among those things
> which he alleges are "facts", several have been debunked by numerous
> people who cite sources for their *real* facts). But you blindly
> believe him because you're clueless and naive and Boob is a fellow
> OS/2 nutcase.
> 
> >>I am asking you to be
> >>objective and logical.
>  
> >I'm so sorry not to meet your criteria.
> 
> Nor the criteria of others.
> 
> >Please do not generalise without reason.
> 
> HAHAHAHAH! This is truly hysterical coming from a buffoon who wants to
> take Boob's alleged "anecdotes", devoid of any proof and rife with
> factual errors, and forget all about whether they have any
> truthfulness an actual, specific, realworld case, and instead
> generalize without reason to "possible interpretations" about no
> particular specific cases.
> 
> You're a clueless, naive hypocrite.

Karel Jansens
jansens_at_attglobal_dot_net
=======================================================
"The method employed I would gladly explain,
While I have it so clear in my head,
If I had but the time and you had but the brain -
But much yet remains to be said."

the Hunting of the Snark (Lewis Carroll)
=======================================================

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From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               12-Dec-99 15:58:21
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 19:56:10
Subj: (1/2) Re: Jury scheduled to hear Caldera vs. Microsoft next January

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Karel Jansens wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 23:31:53, Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> wrote:
> 
> > Karel Jansens wrote:
> > >
> > > On Fri, 10 Dec 1999 23:39:02, Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Karel Jansens wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, 10 Dec 1999 02:07:42, Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Karel Jansens wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Thu, 9 Dec 1999 21:59:22, Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Karel Jansens wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Thu, 9 Dec 1999 02:13:15, Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>
wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Karel Jansens wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Bob says he doesn't (and I know similar firms who indeed
> > > > > > > > > > > don't).  On what basis do you doubt him?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > How's this for starters:
> > > > > > > > > > "Since you are a Canuck, your opinoin is worth less than 
> > > > > > > > > >  garbage."
> > > > > > > > > > "Typical conduct of an Arab terrorist. You can't win a
rational
> > > > > > > > > >  argument so you attempt to blow others up."
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Oookayyy...
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Actually, I was referring to the data of the case provided, 
> > > > > > > > > so I could have a chance to reply.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > That didn't stop you from replying, Karel.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ????
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You still replied, in spite of your alleged lack of "a chance".  
> > > > > > Reading comprehension problems?
> > > > > >
> > > > > Ah. I see now. Semantics.
> > > >
> > > > Yours perhaps, if you are attempting to pursue this.  The point of
fact 
> > > > is that you replied in spite of the alleged lack of "referring to the 
> > > > data of the case".
> > > >
> > > Look, if you're going to play that game, I'm out.
> >
> > What alleged game, Karel?  I'm countering your misinformation.

Note:  no response

> > > I can't say why I can't reply without posting *something*. I was trying
to be
> > > (somewhat) polite
> >
> > Unnecessary, Karel.
> >
> > > by letting you know I had read your post, but didn't want to react,
> > > because I had been reacting only to the facts of the case sofar.
> >
> > Doing so is inherently hypocritical.

Note:  no response.  Glad you've decided to save some face and end the
hypocrisy of responding in spite of your "lack of a chance".

> > > This is an issue to you,
> >
> > The truth is an issue to me, Karel.

Note:  no response

> > > but not to me.
> >
> > An obvious lie, given how you continue to make "an issue" out of it.

Note:  no response

> > > *PLONK*, IIRC, would be the correct reaction for me?
> >
> > That would be quite convenient for you, however, not correct by any
stretch.
> 
> Plonk!

Demonstrating once again your espousal of convenience over correctness.
 
> > > > > > > > > Now, all I can say is: "Indeed. Well... yes".
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Glad you agree that those statements are indeed a basis on
which he may
> > > > > > > > be doubted.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Just as long as you add: "... for me" to that sentence.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On the contrary, the above quoted statements are indeed a valid
basis 
> > > > > > on which *anyone* may doubt Bob, especially in light of his lack
of 
> > > > > > retraction.  Your lack of courage to take such a stand is typical,
> > > > > > however.
> > > > >
> > > > > He didn't retract, he explained.
> > > >
> > > > I can give someone a black-eye and then explain that I thought there
was a gnat
> > > > on their eyelid.  Is this an acceptable thing to do?
> > > >
> > > Funny thing: about the same happened to me once. It was a *huge* wasp
> > > and not my eye, and I was pretty angry until I saw the size of the
> > > insect.
> > >
> > > It all depends whether there was a gnat or just the intention to punch
> > > someone's lights out.
> >
> > Does:
> > "Since you are a Canuck, your opinoin is worth less than garbage."
> > "Typical conduct of an Arab terrorist. You can't win a rational argument
so you
> > attempt to blow others up."
> >
> > sound like Bob was doing anyone a favor?
> >
> Bob doesn't do anybody any favours. I don't like the kind of language
> he uses; I'm not happy with the way he treats certain people (although
> some of them could do with a dose of their own medicine).

Have others made prejudicial remarks about Bob?

> How does that change anything to the facts?

There are no facts, Karel.  There are only "plausible stories" by your words. 
As such, the plausibility of such stories is very dependent on the source of
said stories.

> > > > > And no matter how one interprets those remarks, they have absolutely 
no
> > > > > relevance to his credibility re the facts of the case presented.
> > > >
> > > > They have relevance to his credibility as a whole, which casts doubt
on his
> > > > credibility on specific issues.
> > > >
> > > You've been playing silly games with Tholen, Bennett and Haakmat
> > > for... How long is it now? This would do what to your credibility?
> >
> > I have been countering misinformation, FUD, and have been pointing out
> > inconsistencies and substantiating claims.  Are these things "silly games" 
to
> > you Karel?
> >
> This is so funny I'm almost crying.
> Virtually every "player" in those threads has almost wordly said the
> same thing at one time or another.

You ever stop to consider that we're proving a point here?

> > Before you answer that, realize that you are about to make a statement
about
> > Tholen's credibility, who himself has been intimately involved in all of
these
> > threads you mention in the same capacities as the other participants.
> >
> So? The threads are a monument of silliness, as stupid as you'll ever
> find on UseNet. I don't care who's in it,

Then why bring up that I am in it?

> it doesn't change my opinion.

But you said:
KJ] You've been playing silly games with Tholen, Bennett and Haakmat
KJ] for... How long is it now? This would do what to your credibility?

That's not very internally consistent with your argument.

[snip]
> > > > > If you'd like to start a new thread, "Bob Germer is a redneck
racist" or
> > > > > suchlike, I'd gladly give my opinions and contribute to it.
> > > >
> > > > Dubious.
> > > >
> > > You don't *know* that.
> >
> > Never claimed I did.

Note:  no response

> > > So why are you saying this?
> >
> > I find such a statement dubious, given your past performances.
> >
> Try me.

Unnecessary.  If you feel so strongly about it, why not originate such a
thread
yourself?

> > > > > However, to the issues I have been reacting to, this is of no 
> > > > > significance.
> > > >
> > > > Incorrect.
> >
> > Note: no response
> >
> What do you want me to say? "You're wrong?", so you can start another
> subthread like the one I plonked?

Not at all Karel.  What I "want" is irrelevant.  An appropriate response would
be to admit that when someone is relating "plausible stories" that the
character of the source of these stories is quite significant in determining
their validity.

> > > > > So what courage would I need then?
> > > >
> > > > The courage to be objective and not accept someone's word on blind
faith,
> > > > especially someone who has shown that their own objectivity and grasp
of truth
> > > > and reality is highly questionable.  Perhaps you can redirect the
courage you
> > > > summoned to defend Bob over to this new area.
> > > >
> > > Objectivity works both ways, Marty. You say: "I don't see many reasons
> > > to believe Bob". I say: "I don't see many reasons not to believe Bob".
> >
> > You would be correct if that's all I stated.  However, I have stated:
> > 1] "I don't see any reasons to believe Bob"
> > 2] "I see several reasons to doubt Bob"
> >
> Yes, you're correct. My mistake again. The reason why I conveniently
> forgot it was that - to me - the reasons you state for doubting Bob
> are unrelated to "the case". You see, I'm trying to prove logical
> coherence in a chain of (recorded) events, not so much finding out
> whether the events depicted have correlation with reality.

On the subject of telling plausible stories, do you recall Bob's excuse for
the
Arab remark?  Do you also recall the original posting in which he made the
remark?  Is the excuse a plausible story in light of the facts of the original
posting?  Do you now see why I doubt Bob's "plausible stories"?

> > > And in any case, it is quite irrelevant to my argumentation whether
> > > Bob has been describing a real case or just made it up. I have argued
> > > that the described cause of events is plausible, that there are no
> > > significant inconsistencies which would make it improbable to have
> > > happened.
> >
> > I can describe many plausible situations which are lies, Karel.  If this
is the
> > crux of your argumentation, then your opinions are "worth less than
garbage" as
> > your buddy would say.
> >
> So? How am I going to verify your lies then? If you adamantly state
> that your name is Neil Armstrong and that you've been to the Moon, how
> am I able to prove you wrong? You're letters on a screen, Marty. You
> can claim anything you want to and as long as your claims don't
> contradict anything I already know, I cannot verify them.

Well, what do you know about Canadians?  How about Arabs?

> > > > > To you I would have to say:
> > > >
> > > > So why not just say it?
> > > >
> > > Because that would be stupid!
> >
> > According to who, Karel?  You?
> >
> Readon, dear man. Read on.

Reading on fails to explain why just stating something would be "stupid".

> > > I have argued that the events are logical, and then I would have to
> > > conclude: "No, this cannot be right, because the man who described the
> > > events doesn't have a nice personality".
> >
> > On what basis do you feel you would "have to conclude" the above? 
Certainly
> > not from anything I've said.
> >
> But that's exactly what you've said. You want me to dismiss Bob's
> story because he doesn't say nice things.

I've pointed out misinformation which Bob has foisted on these newsgroups as a
means of casting a shadow of doubt on the rest of his words.  His lack of
retraction, and furthermore his feeble, inept attempts to cover up the
underlying prejudice in his statements only advances my cause.

> > > I may do many things to please other people,
> >
> > Yes, we've seen your responses to and about Tholen.
> >
> And your point is?

That this behavior is logically inconsistent with:
KJ] You see, I'm trying to prove logical coherence in a chain of (recorded)
KJ] events, not so much finding out whether the events depicted have 
KJ] correlation with reality.

> > > but I'm not prepared to drop logic to make you happy.
> >
> > You need not "drop" what you haven't picked up, Karel, nor would the
abondment
> > of logic "make me happy".  Quite the opposite, as I am asking you to be
> > objective and logical.
> >
> I'm so sorry not to meet your criteria.

You haven't even met your own criteria:
KJ] You see, I'm trying to prove logical coherence in a chain of (recorded)
KJ] events, not so much finding out whether the events depicted have 
KJ] correlation with reality.

> > > > > "Okay, Bob Germer did present a credible explanation for his
installation
> > > > > of Warp on his client's pc's, but because he said this and that I
choose
> > > > > not to believe him." That's consequent behaviour then?
> > > >
> > > > You're presupposing that Bob did present a credible explanation for
his
> > > > installation of Warp on his client's PCs.
> > > >
> > > Yes, he did.
> >
> > Your assumption, one which I do not share.
> >
> > > > "Bob says he doesn't (and I know similar firms who indeed don't). On
what basis
> > > > do you doubt him?"
> > > >
> > > > Sorry, but we don't all share your blind faith in Bob, especially
after reading
> > > > his postings.
> > > >
> > > > Due to lack of hard facts at my disposal regarding Bob's clients, and
due to
> > > > the presence of such negative, biased commentary from Bob himself I am 
left to
> > > > take Bob's statements with a pillar of salt at best.  He has done
nothing to
> > > > convince me of his credibility (which is not particularly his fault)
and quite
> > > > a bit to refute it (which most certainly is his fault).
> > >
> > > See above. Even if he lied his teeth out, the story still has an
> > > internal logic, and that's all that matters.
> >
> > I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you are more concerned about what
you
> > refer to as "logic" than the truth.  Tholen has taught you well,
grasshopper.
> >
> Please do not generalise without reason. It is so... Glattish.

Where is this alleged generalization?  I'm just going by what you said:
KJ] You see, I'm trying to prove logical coherence in a chain of (recorded)
KJ] events, not so much finding out whether the events depicted have 
KJ] correlation with reality.

> Besides, I've already made it clear that in this case my only interest
> was in the internal consistency of the logic, not the actual
> truthfulness, so your remark is, besides rather funny, completely
> superfluous.

Does this sound like somebody who is only concerned with the internal
consistency of Bob's stories?
KJ] Like I said: save your wrath for the guy who advised the firm on 
KJ] Microsoft products. He's the real joke.

> > > After all, not a single one of you is more than letters on a monitor
> > > (with the exceptions of Dave Tholen, Esther Schindler and Jim Stuyck,
> > > of whom I've seen photographs - and even then...).
> >
> > http://www.rit.edu/~meseec/picnic99/img60.jpg
> > Front row, far left.  Does this make me any more or less credible?
> >
> It had nothing to do with credibility, but everything with the
> statement "letters on a monitor". I'll add you to the list from now
> on, OK? (img45.jpg is much better).
> (BTW, don't play with your food, Marty <G>)

Ugh... you can see the bags under my eyes too clearly in that one.  (That's
what 53 consecutive hours of consciousness looks like.)

> > > The entire "credibility" issue is a laugh;
> >
> > Coming from the person running interference for Tholen and Bob, it
certainly
> > is.
> >
> > > do you really think any of you has a real world credibility rating
higher

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From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               12-Dec-99 15:58:21
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 19:56:10
Subj: (2/2) Re: Jury scheduled to hear Caldera vs. Microsoft next January

> > > than 0 to me?
> >
> > I suppose your use of my software doesn't give me credibility with you.
> >
> OH? I can only use MAME (still cool, BTW) if I agree on everything
> with you? Please let me know. If that's the case, I'll remove it
> pronto from my system.

Illogical, as having credibility doesn't mean that you "agree on everything"
with me.

> > > The only thing I can judge is internal consistency of postings on UseNet 
or
> > > comparison with facts that I know personally,
> >
> > Compared to the facts you know personally, does someone who says:
> > "Since you are a Canuck, your opinoin is worth less than garbage."
> > "Typical conduct of an Arab terrorist. You can't win a rational argument
so you
> > attempt to blow others up."
> >
> > have any credibility?
> >
> See higher to get the overall figure of credibility I've given to this
> group.

So why give Bob the benefit of the doubt, after seeing statements like this?

> > > and that's all I'm prepared to rate on.
> >
> > Apparently not.
> >
> > > I don't expect anything more from the rest of you either.
> >
> > And you expect considerably less from your "buddies", Tholen and Germer.
> 
> I don't understand the above.

You're perfectly willing to let their inconsistencies slide, as you have aptly
demonstrated.

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From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               12-Dec-99 16:02:16
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 19:56:10
Subj: Re: Jury scheduled to hear Caldera vs. Microsoft next January

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Karel Jansens wrote:
> 
> Look, if you want to attribute to a discussion, then at least do as
> such.
> 
> All you seem to be capable off is mindlessly repeating the same few
> slogans over and over again. You don't ever bring new ideas, you don't
> even seem to be able to read other people's posts. In fact, all you
> are is annoying, like a little kid that keeps yapping in a grown-ups's
> discussion. Do you really want to be sent to bed?

I think you addressed this in reply to the wrong article.  It was far more
appropriate to Tholen's latest posting in the thread titled "Amodeo Digest".

Besides, Jeff has just told us a logically consistent "plausible story".  Why
do you doubt him?

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From: larso@commodore.                                  12-Dec-99 20:44:26
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 19:56:10
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg)

As I stepped out onto the Stoop, I saw Bob Germer write:
>    larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg) said:

> > Monopoly power requires a monopoly.  Microsoft isn't a monopoly.
> 
> Monopoly is what the law defines a monopoly to be.

When the legal definition of a monopoly fails to correlate with reality, the
law is at fault.

> > Measuring the monopoly powers of Microsoft is like measuring the number
> > of guns on the head of a pin.  There are none.
> 
> There most certainly are under the definition of monopoly used in US (and
> Canadian apparently) law. Under the law MS is a monopoly and its power is
> measurable as defined in the law.

True.  The laws themselves are unjust.  These laws should not exist.  No law
should define Microsoft as a monopoly (since it isn't).

> > > You have refused to recognize the phenomena of a monoipoly and monopoly
> > > power.
> 
> > I will not lie and say that Microsoft is a monopoly.
> > I will not lie and say that Microsoft can use monopoly power.
> 
> You are lying to yourself and the world in that case.

Microsoft has competitors.  Any other definition (ie. U.S. law) is rotten to
the core.

>                                                        Whether or not you
> like the law, the law defines what monopoly means. MS meets and exceeds
> the definition. Ergo it is a monopoly under the law. Monopolies can and do
> exercise monopoly power as that power is defined under the law.

The problem with the WHOLE LAW is that it defies reality and the rights of a
business.

> Your inane stupidity is not going to get you an interview much less a job
> with MS.

Do I care?  No.  I'm not planning on working for MS.

>           Wanting same is the only possible explanation for your idiotic
> rantings and ravings other than that you are a totally stupid, retarded,
> moron cheating his way through college.

Mature, Bob, really mature.

Keep going, by all means.

-- 
Lars P. Ormberg     ICQ#:8827066
mailto:larso@ualberta.ca
The University of Lars:   http://www.ualberta.ca/~larso/

"The way you're bathed in light, reminds me of that night
God laid me down into your rose garden of trust and I was
swept away with nothin' left to say some helpless fool
yeah I was lost in a swoon of peace you're all I need to
find so when the time is right come to me sweetly, come
to me come to me..love will lead us, alright.  love will
lead us, she will lead us.  can you hear the dolphin's
cry?  see the road rise up to meet us its in the air we
breathe tonight love will lead us, she will lead us"
                            -Live, "The Dolphin's Cry"

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From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               12-Dec-99 16:05:23
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 19:56:10
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Tim Martin wrote:
> 
> Alan Boritz wrote:
> 
> > Wipe your chin, take your kneepads, and get out of here, Timmy.
> 
> Statements such as this confirm to all the
> whining ass/fool you continually demonstrate
> yourself to be.

Statements such as this confirm to all the whining ass/fool you continually
demonstrate yourself to be.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net                            12-Dec-99 21:20:08
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 19:56:11
Subj: Re: Jury scheduled to hear Caldera vs. Microsoft next January

From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens)

Marty,

I'm not going on with this. This "discussion" has evolved into a 
mutual repetition of the same points we started out with. If you 
consider yourself the winner because I quit, you can be the winner 
then.

This is how I see it (correct me if you want to; I probably won't 
reply anymore):

You base Bob Germer's credibility on his character; in fact, AFAICS, 
you base it on two remarks he made.

I'm not basing Bob Germer's credibility on anything. It's totally 
immaterial to me. I gave a cause of events which could explain why a 
client of his would be better off with OS/2 than with an upgrade of 
IE5, and plausible motif for a consultant to do such. I fail to see 
the relevance of his character to this.

This seems to make you think I'm
a. a "supporter" of Bob Germer (which in turn gives you proof to claim
I'm a "supporter" of Dave Tholen);
b. a fascistoid racist;
c. a suitable victim for playing semantics-"jokes". (I don't like it 
when Dave Tholen does it; I don't like it when you do it; I 
*sometimes* like it when Eric Bennett does it, because he manages to 
bring a surreal level of humour to it)

Fine. Think what you want, Marty. Bye.
(Just to show you how cross I am, I'm not going to play any MAME-games
for at *least* a week.

Maybe even longer.)

Karel Jansens
jansens_at_attglobal_dot_net
=======================================================
"The method employed I would gladly explain,
While I have it so clear in my head,
If I had but the time and you had but the brain -
But much yet remains to be said."

the Hunting of the Snark (Lewis Carroll)
=======================================================

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: OS2Guy@WarpCity.com                               12-Dec-99 14:32:18
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 19:56:11
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com>

Marty wrote:

> Tim Martin wrote:
> >
> > Alan Boritz wrote:
> >
> > > Wipe your chin, take your kneepads, and get out of here, Timmy.
> >
> > Statements such as this confirm to all the
> > whining ass/fool you continually demonstrate
> > yourself to be.
>
> Statements such as this confirm to all the whining ass/fool you continually
> demonstrate yourself to be.

Not gonna play this game Marty.  Your personal desire
to start flame wars with those you have a personal
hatred for are simply not worth the time of day.

Tim Martin
The OS/2 Guy
Warp City (http://warpcity.com)
"We Close The Y2K Discount Door For '99 Members 12/15"


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: glend@nospam.direct.ca                            12-Dec-99 14:52:28
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 19:56:11
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Glenn Davies <glend@nospam.direct.ca>

On 12 Dec 1999 19:14:06 GMT, larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg) wrote:

>As I stepped out onto the Stoop, I saw Bob Germer write:
>>    "Wolf Kirchmeir" <greywolf@onlink.net> said:
>> 
>> > You continually talk as if no one had any responsibilities to anyone. If
>> > you really believe that, you can't justify objections to anything anyone
>> > might do to you. So you don't like it! So what? If my only
>> > responsibility is to myself, why should I care whether you like it or
>> > not? I'll do what I like, and if it kills you, too bad.
>> 
>> Exactly. Using Lars P. Omberg's infantile attempt at logic, I should be
>> able to drive down the Queen Elizabeth II highway at 200 KPH in my Viper.
>> I know the law says I cannot exceed 100 KPH (in some areas at least if
>> memory serves), but I have decided that the law is invalid and that no
>> one's speed should be regulated by governments.
>
>If you can safely drive 200, why not?
>
>>                                                Therefore it is perfectly
>> right and moral for me to do 200 regardless of the harm I am likely to
>> cause to others on the road.
>
>The only harm you'll cause is from hitting somebody...and its just as
>possible to do so at half the speed.
>

People can cause accidents without themselves being involved in any
crash.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               12-Dec-99 18:12:28
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 19:56:11
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Tim Martin wrote:
> 
> Marty wrote:
> 
> > Tim Martin wrote:
> > >
> > > Alan Boritz wrote:
> > >
> > > > Wipe your chin, take your kneepads, and get out of here, Timmy.
> > >
> > > Statements such as this confirm to all the
> > > whining ass/fool you continually demonstrate
> > > yourself to be.
> >
> > Statements such as this confirm to all the whining ass/fool you
continually
> > demonstrate yourself to be.
> 
> Not gonna play this game Marty.

You already have been, Tim.  The above is evidence of this.

> Your personal desire to start flame wars with those you have a personal
> hatred for are simply not worth the time of day.

I don't hate you Tim.  In fact, I kinda like you.  Your antics have been quite
amusing over the years.  As far as starting flame wars, that was not my
intention.  Rather, I intended to point out the irony of your statement.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenbot_pro@excite.com                          12-Dec-99 16:52:20
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 21:19:03
Subj: Re: Haakmat digest, volume 2451520

From: TholenBotPro <tholenbot_pro@excite.com>

In article <82iim7$fbt$1@news.hawaii.edu>, tholenAntiSpam@hawaii.edu 
wrote:

> 1> Keep Starfleet out of this, Dave.
> 
> Who else knows about Talos IV?

Vina.

-- 
"You're erroneously presuming that I'm being pedantic."
          -- Dave Tholen

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: josco@ibm.net                                     12-Dec-99 16:07:02
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 21:19:04
Subj: Re: When will it be 100% done?

From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net>


"David H. McCoy" wrote:

> In article <3852D25F.C2686D5C@stny.rr.com>, mamodeo@stny.rr.com says...
>
> What I find disturbing is despite his rather public bigotry, most OS/2 users
> side with him anyway.
>
> That's sad.
>

Oh please, you love it.

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From: larso@commodore.                                  13-Dec-99 00:10:28
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 21:19:04
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg)

As I stepped out onto the Stoop, I saw Jack Troughton write:
> On Sun, 12 Dec 1999 03:40:58, larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg) wrote:

> êCompare that with when you try to sell an operating system competing with
> êMicrosoft...and you don't go to jail.
> 
> Here, let's try this one on for size. Going to jail is a bagatelle for
> sissies. It can't REALLY be a monopoly unless the penalty is summary 
> execution.  Therefore, the health system is not a monopoly.
> 
> This is the level at which you are arguing. It's not very successful.

Ponder this for a moment:

You are trying to say that so long as the government doesn't punish you as
much as they should, then there is no punishment.

Whether its being killed or jailed, the government is still punishing you
for your "crimes".

The reason an actual monopoly can hold is because nobody is capable of
competing with it.  They are punished for it as a crime.  The government can
cause them harm, restrain them, etc. for it.

A private business cannot.  If Microsoft tries to kill you or put you in a
Microsoft prison for the crime of competing against you, they themselves are
in violation of laws.  The government is not.

Microsoft doesn't have the power of force that the government does.  If it
did, failing to buy MS would carry the same price as failing to pay taxes.

> ê> > Oh, you mean the laws stating that any business practise is illegal?
> ê> > 
> ê> Of course: that's what antitrust laws usually do.
> Û
> êOh, joy.
> Û
> êYou don't find _anything_ wrong with that?
> 
> Let's see, Capone used to kill his competitors. That was a business 
> practice. It's also illegal. You can't use any business practice you 
> want, you are only allowed the business practices permissable under 
> the law.
> 
> So, I personally don't find anything wrong with that.

Nothing wrong with laws declaring any business practise illegal?
Nothing at all?


-- 
Lars P. Ormberg     ICQ#:8827066
mailto:larso@ualberta.ca
The University of Lars:   http://www.ualberta.ca/~larso/

"The way you're bathed in light, reminds me of that night
God laid me down into your rose garden of trust and I was
swept away with nothin' left to say some helpless fool
yeah I was lost in a swoon of peace you're all I need to
find so when the time is right come to me sweetly, come
to me come to me..love will lead us, alright.  love will
lead us, she will lead us.  can you hear the dolphin's
cry?  see the road rise up to meet us its in the air we
breathe tonight love will lead us, she will lead us"
                            -Live, "The Dolphin's Cry"

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From: jglatt@spamgone-borg.com                          13-Dec-99 00:44:20
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 21:19:04
Subj: Re: Jury scheduled to hear Caldera vs. Microsoft next January

From: jglatt@spamgone-borg.com (Jeff Glatt)

>Karel Jansens
>I'm not going on with this.

You should have never started attempting to run interference for Boob
Germer to begin with. If you weren't such a foolish OS/2 nutcase, you
wouldn't embarrass yourself by doing such, and thereby giving other
people the opportunity to point out your hypocrisy, cluelessness, and
naivete.

>I probably won't reply anymore

Doubtful. Karel claimed months ago that he was no longer replying to
me, and he obviously hasn't made any effort to keep his "word" as
evidenced by his posts in this thread alone. Frankly, Karel's word is
just about worthless, much like Germer's supposedly "plausible"
anecdotes which are rife with factual errors that clearly go well
beyond Karel's exceedingly limited knowledge of the matters being
discussed.

>I'm not basing Bob Germer's credibility on anything.

Including factual consistency obviously.

But what you *are* doing is siding with him just because he's a
foaming-at-the-mouth OS/2 zealot who hates anything associated with
MS, and that is the extent of the criteria you use to gauge whether
someone "makes quite a bit of sense".

"Bob Germer makes quite a bit of sense." -- Karel Jensens

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenbot_pro@excite.com                          12-Dec-99 16:41:00
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 21:19:04
Subj: Re: Haakmat digest, volume 2451517

From: TholenBotPro <tholenbot_pro@excite.com>

In article <FMFvHC.9s2.0.queen@torfree.net>, da728@torfree.net (Karl 
Knechtel) wrote:

> Pascal Haakmat (p@awacs.dhs.org) wrote:
> : tholenbot wrote:
> 
> : >> >> >> Whatever turns you on, Dave.
> : >> >> >
> : >> >> >Trying to get a "rise" out of him, Pascal?
> : >> >> 
> : >> >> Do you regard him as "fallen", Eric?
> : >> >
> : >> >Reading comprehension problems, Pascal?
> : >> 
> : >> Comprehend context, Eric.
> : >
> : >Illogical.
> 
> : Why?
> 
> Don't you know, Pascal?

Jumping into discussions again, Karl?

-- 
"You're erroneously presuming that I'm being pedantic."
          -- Dave Tholen

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenbot_pro@excite.com                          12-Dec-99 16:46:27
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 21:19:04
Subj: Re: Haakmat digest, volume 2451522

From: TholenBotPro <tholenbot_pro@excite.com>

In article <82ogho$2u7$2@news.hawaii.edu>, tholenAntiSpam@hawaii.edu 
wrote:

> 1> And you speak Latin too ... <sigh>
> 
> And even some contemporary Latin translations:
> 
> veni, vidi, velcro:  I came, I saw, I stuck around
> domino vobiscum:  the pizza guy is here
> e pluribus septum:  multiple nose piercings
> sic transit gloria mundi:  Gloria got sick on the bus Monday

Posting for entertainment purposes again, Dave?

-- 
"You're erroneously presuming that I'm being pedantic."
          -- Dave Tholen

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenbot_pro@excite.com                          12-Dec-99 16:48:20
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 21:19:04
Subj: Re: Dimsdale digest, volume 2451514

From: TholenBotPro <tholenbot_pro@excite.com>

In article <tholenbot-752D72.08450907121999@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>, 
tholenbot <tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu> wrote:

> In article 
> <CABEA840AC12DBA0.43AE1E9722902FBD.F2C306C752FDB5D3@lp.airnews.net>, 
> TholenBotPro� <tholenbot_pro@excite.com> wrote:

> > > > > > Forging stdio again Aaron?  I wonder how Bluestreak.org would 
> > > > > > react 
> > > > > > to 
> > > > > > the information that you're posting forgery.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > I wonder how Louis Freeh would react to the information that 
> > > > > you're 
> > > > > jumping into discussions again, Chris.
> > > > 
> > > > Irrelevant, 
> > > 
> > > Why?
> > 
> > Comprehend context, Eric.
> 
> I do, Chris.  I see you didn't answer the question.

Incorrect.  More evidence of your lack of reading comprehension skills.
 
> > > > given that the FBI does not investigate discussion 
> > > > in-jumping.
> > > 
> > > On what basis do you make this claim?
> > 
> > Don't you know, Eric?
> 
> Ask your tormentor, grasshopper.

What alleged "tormentor", Eric?

-- 
"You're erroneously presuming that I'm being pedantic."
          -- Dave Tholen

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: letoured@nospam.net                               12-Dec-99 20:38:09
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 03:31:19
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: letoured@nospam.net

Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com> said:

>For too long, union goons and their rent-a-mob tactics of threats and
>intimidation have harmed the owners of reputable corporations, and it is
>time for this crap to stop.

I asked you to document this before. You run for cover like a dip-shit
coward every time someone puts you on the spot -- so are you gone cite
examples or hide again?



_____________
Ed Letourneau <letoured@sover.net>

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu                12-Dec-99 21:09:29
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 03:31:19
Subj: Re: Dimsdale digest, volume 2451514

From: tholenbot <tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu>

In article 
<943A24F40D7BA8AC.6A3ADFE94027DC00.F8D3FE80172DAD46@lp.airnews.net>, 
TholenBotPro <tholenbot_pro@excite.com> wrote:

> In article <tholenbot-752D72.08450907121999@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>, 
> tholenbot <tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu> wrote:
> 
> > In article 
> > <CABEA840AC12DBA0.43AE1E9722902FBD.F2C306C752FDB5D3@lp.airnews.net>, 
> > TholenBotPro� <tholenbot_pro@excite.com> wrote:
> 
> > > > > > > Forging stdio again Aaron?  I wonder how Bluestreak.org would 
> > > > > > > react 
> > > > > > > to 
> > > > > > > the information that you're posting forgery.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I wonder how Louis Freeh would react to the information that 
> > > > > > you're 
> > > > > > jumping into discussions again, Chris.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Irrelevant, 
> > > > 
> > > > Why?
> > > 
> > > Comprehend context, Eric.
> > 
> > I do, Chris.  I see you didn't answer the question.
> 
> Incorrect.  More evidence of your lack of reading comprehension skills.

See what I mean?

-- 
I do not 'approve' phrases.
-Dave Tholen

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: sbritton@cadvision.com                            12-Dec-99 19:15:01
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 03:31:19
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com>

Ed Letourneau wrote:

> >For too long, union goons and their rent-a-mob tactics of threats and
> >intimidation have harmed the owners of reputable corporations, and it is
> >time for this crap to stop.
>
> I asked you to document this before. You run for cover like a dip-shit
> coward every time someone puts you on the spot -- so are you gone cite
> examples or hide again?

How about the UFCW harassing customers during the Safeway strike in 1997?
How about the violence on the Calgary Herald picket line?
How about the violence on CUPW picket lines?

To list three...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
What have YOU done to bust a union today?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Work better: Work union-free.

Steven C. Britton
Calgary

www.cadvision.com/sbritton



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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenbot_pro@excite.com                          12-Dec-99 18:34:19
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 03:31:19
Subj: Re: Dimsdale digest, volume 2451514

From: TholenBotPro <tholenbot_pro@excite.com>

In article <tholenbot-1F68B3.21095912121999@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>, 
tholenbot <tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu> wrote:

> In article 
> <943A24F40D7BA8AC.6A3ADFE94027DC00.F8D3FE80172DAD46@lp.airnews.net>, 
> TholenBotPro <tholenbot_pro@excite.com> wrote:
> 
> > In article <tholenbot-752D72.08450907121999@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>, 
> > tholenbot <tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu> wrote:
> > 
> > > In article 
> > > <CABEA840AC12DBA0.43AE1E9722902FBD.F2C306C752FDB5D3@lp.airnews.net>, 
> > > TholenBotPro� <tholenbot_pro@excite.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > > > > > > Forging stdio again Aaron?  I wonder how Bluestreak.org 
> > > > > > > > would 
> > > > > > > > react 
> > > > > > > > to 
> > > > > > > > the information that you're posting forgery.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > I wonder how Louis Freeh would react to the information that 
> > > > > > > you're 
> > > > > > > jumping into discussions again, Chris.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Irrelevant, 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Why?
> > > > 
> > > > Comprehend context, Eric.
> > > 
> > > I do, Chris.  I see you didn't answer the question.
> > 
> > Incorrect.  More evidence of your lack of reading comprehension skills.
> 
> See what I mean?

No, given that you predictably butchered the context.  Do you find this 
"entertaining", Eric?

-- 
"You're erroneously presuming that I'm being pedantic."
          -- Dave Tholen

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: donnelly@tampabay.rr.com                          13-Dec-99 02:38:08
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 03:31:19
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: donnelly@tampabay.rr.com (Buddy Donnelly)

On Mon, 13 Dec 1999 01:38:18, letoured@nospam.net wrote:

> Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com> said:
> 
> >For too long, union goons and their rent-a-mob tactics of threats and
> >intimidation have harmed the owners of reputable corporations, 

Have they succeeded in locating one of them? I thought that search 
project had been cancelled in Y1ARRP (Year 1 After Ronald Reagan 
Presidency). Like buttonhooks for shoe buttons, they'd just flat gone 
out of style?


> and it is
> >time for this crap to stop.
> 
> I asked you to document this before. You run for cover like a dip-shit
> coward every time someone puts you on the spot -- so are you gone cite
> examples or hide again?

Y'all both'd be better served as arguers by adding in some wit and 
subtracting out some invective? Or conduct profane crosstalk via 
email? Or just drop it 'cause neither's name-calling is going to 
change the opposer's mind?

USENET: Keep it clean and shiny. Or lose it.

-- 

Good luck,

Buddy

Buddy Donnelly
donnelly@tampabay.rr.com


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: bowenjm@rintintin.colorado.edu                    13-Dec-99 02:50:17
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 03:31:19
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: bowenjm@rintintin.colorado.edu (Jason Bowen)

You proved yourself as a liar a long time ago so why do you continue to
believe that you will be taken seriously?  Like I said, the impact wasn't
hard enough.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: bowenjm@rintintin.colorado.edu                    13-Dec-99 02:53:04
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 03:31:19
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: bowenjm@rintintin.colorado.edu (Jason Bowen)

In article <38542283.F14569D2@WarpCity.com>,
Tim Martin  <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com> wrote:
>Marty wrote:
>
>> Tim Martin wrote:
>> >
>> > Alan Boritz wrote:
>> >
>> > > Wipe your chin, take your kneepads, and get out of here, Timmy.
>> >
>> > Statements such as this confirm to all the
>> > whining ass/fool you continually demonstrate
>> > yourself to be.
>>
>> Statements such as this confirm to all the whining ass/fool you continually
>> demonstrate yourself to be.
>
>Not gonna play this game Marty.  Your personal desire
>to start flame wars with those you have a personal
>hatred for are simply not worth the time of day.

This coming from somebody that does just that, priceless.  So was it an
airbag or a seatbelt that kept you free to spew hypocrisy?

>
>Tim Martin
>The OS/2 Guy
>Warp City (http://warpcity.com)
>"We Close The Y2K Discount Door For '99 Members 12/15"
>
>


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: larso@commodore.                                  13-Dec-99 03:32:09
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 03:31:20
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg)

As I stepped out onto the Stoop, I saw Wolf Kirchmeir write:
> On 10 Dec 1999 00:26:43 GMT, Lars P Ormberg wrote:
> 
> =>The freedom to act based on your own interests.
> =>
> =>Not hard to grasp.
> 
> Ah, I thought you would say something like that.
> 
> Of course if you cannot grasp your own interest, you're in deep shit. And
> will cause a lof shit, too. So we, who will be harmed by your blinkered
> notion of what your interests are, will have tp punish you -- entirely to
> advance our own interest, of course! Our freedom allows us to curtail yours.

Only when I try to impede on yours.  Because my freedom doesn't allow me to
obstruct your freedom.  For example, I can't tell you who you can and can
not associate with.  Or sell to.  Or what price to sell at.


-- 
Lars P. Ormberg     ICQ#:8827066
mailto:larso@ualberta.ca
The University of Lars:   http://www.ualberta.ca/~larso/

"The way you're bathed in light, reminds me of that night
God laid me down into your rose garden of trust and I was
swept away with nothin' left to say some helpless fool
yeah I was lost in a swoon of peace you're all I need to
find so when the time is right come to me sweetly, come
to me come to me..love will lead us, alright.  love will
lead us, she will lead us.  can you hear the dolphin's
cry?  see the road rise up to meet us its in the air we
breathe tonight love will lead us, she will lead us"
                            -Live, "The Dolphin's Cry"

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: josco@ibm.net                                     12-Dec-99 19:46:22
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 03:31:20
Subj: I'm Leaving Canada!  Re: Who runs this country?

From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net>

Lars P Ormberg wrote:


> The reason an actual monopoly can hold is because nobody is capable of
> competing with it.  They are punished for it as a crime.  The government can
> cause them harm, restrain them, etc. for it.

> A private business cannot.  If Microsoft tries to kill you or put you in a
> Microsoft prison for the crime of competing against you, they themselves are
> in violation of laws.  The government is not.

> Microsoft doesn't have the power of force that the government does.  If it
> did, failing to buy MS would carry the same price as failing to pay taxes.

MS is not accused of having the force of power of a government.

You cry too much and do little but whine from a government subsidized
university
account.  You are free to leave Canada -  No one is forcing you to live there
and pay taxes or to use their health care system.  You can move to a county
where there are not taxes and Canada will not stop you so why do you stay.  
You
have a choice to leave and refuse to exercise it.  You are LAZY and spoiled.
Prison and taxes are for the lazy ones who stay and eat from the public trough
and whine.

Like what you say about MS, a government is not a monopoly because you can
freely leave any time *unless* you are too lazy to move and then it's your
fault
for living in a place that has bad laws.  You accept the laws by freely living
in the country and therefore - like a MS customer - you actually are voting
for
anti-trust laws and the government.   No one forced or asked you to live in
Canada so you freely endorse the laws and policies of Canada.  You don't want
freedom - you want Canadians to change their lives and values to suit your
pampered needs.  What a spoiled child.




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From: larso@commodore.                                  13-Dec-99 03:48:11
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 03:31:20
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg)

As I stepped out onto the Stoop, I saw Bob Germer write:
>    "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com> said:

> > Exactly the same principle applied to Microsoft.
> 
> No, Microsoft has more than 90% of the market.

The size of a "market share" is irrelevent.  How big or successful a company
is should NEVER be in a factor in what is allowed to do.  The same principle
applied to individuals is clearly hollow garbage...why it's so hard to
extend to a company is beyond me.

-- 
Lars P. Ormberg     ICQ#:8827066
mailto:larso@ualberta.ca
The University of Lars:   http://www.ualberta.ca/~larso/

"The way you're bathed in light, reminds me of that night
God laid me down into your rose garden of trust and I was
swept away with nothin' left to say some helpless fool
yeah I was lost in a swoon of peace you're all I need to
find so when the time is right come to me sweetly, come
to me come to me..love will lead us, alright.  love will
lead us, she will lead us.  can you hear the dolphin's
cry?  see the road rise up to meet us its in the air we
breathe tonight love will lead us, she will lead us"
                            -Live, "The Dolphin's Cry"

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: josco@ibm.net                                     12-Dec-99 19:58:14
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 03:31:20
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net>


Lars P Ormberg wrote:

> As I stepped out onto the Stoop, I saw Wolf Kirchmeir write:
> > On 10 Dec 1999 00:26:43 GMT, Lars P Ormberg wrote:
> >
> > =>The freedom to act based on your own interests.
> > =>
> > =>Not hard to grasp.
> >
> > Ah, I thought you would say something like that.
> >
> > Of course if you cannot grasp your own interest, you're in deep shit. And
> > will cause a lof shit, too. So we, who will be harmed by your blinkered
> > notion of what your interests are, will have tp punish you -- entirely to
> > advance our own interest, of course! Our freedom allows us to curtail
yours.
>
> Only when I try to impede on yours.  Because my freedom doesn't allow me to
> obstruct your freedom.  For example, I can't tell you who you can and can
> not associate with.  Or sell to.  Or what price to sell at.

If you price a good below cost then you impede a freedom - a probable
violation of
international trade laws.  Even MS was capable of arguing they were going to
make
up money on web browser hits and advertisements.

When you refuse to sell to a religion or race you impede a freedom - a basic
human
right.  It's no wonder property rights were used to justify slavery and the
physical abuse those humans  -- now it is used by you to defend discrimination 
and
economic crimes.  Such are the advocates of a monopoly.  Thank god MS is a
forward
looking, progressive company that wouldn't in it's darkest hour associate with
your freedoms.


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From: tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu                12-Dec-99 22:58:25
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 03:31:20
Subj: Re: Dimsdale digest, volume 2451514

From: tholenbot <tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu>

In article 
<EBF2A3D3CFB0D7A1.D74B45A71B29B5BB.C7284BD91A4CE212@lp.airnews.net>, 
TholenBotPro <tholenbot_pro@excite.com> wrote:

> In article <tholenbot-1F68B3.21095912121999@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>, 
> tholenbot <tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu> wrote:
> 
> > In article 
> > <943A24F40D7BA8AC.6A3ADFE94027DC00.F8D3FE80172DAD46@lp.airnews.net>, 
> > TholenBotPro <tholenbot_pro@excite.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > In article 
> > > <tholenbot-752D72.08450907121999@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>, 
> > > tholenbot <tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > In article 
> > > > <CABEA840AC12DBA0.43AE1E9722902FBD.F2C306C752FDB5D3@lp.airnews.net>,
> > > >  
> > > > TholenBotPro� <tholenbot_pro@excite.com> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > > > > > > Forging stdio again Aaron?  I wonder how Bluestreak.org 
> > > > > > > > > would 
> > > > > > > > > react 
> > > > > > > > > to 
> > > > > > > > > the information that you're posting forgery.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > I wonder how Louis Freeh would react to the information 
> > > > > > > > that 
> > > > > > > > you're 
> > > > > > > > jumping into discussions again, Chris.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Irrelevant, 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Why?
> > > > > 
> > > > > Comprehend context, Eric.
> > > > 
> > > > I do, Chris.  I see you didn't answer the question.
> > > 
> > > Incorrect.  More evidence of your lack of reading comprehension 
> > > skills.
> > 
> > See what I mean?
> 
> No, given that you predictably butchered the context. 

Illogical, given that I did not butcher your failure to answer the 
question.

> Do you find this 
> "entertaining", Eric?

Irrelevant.

-- 
I do not 'approve' phrases.
-Dave Tholen

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: p@awacs.dhs.org                                   13-Dec-99 04:11:12
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 03:31:20
Subj: Re: Haakmat digest, volume 2451522

From: p@awacs.dhs.org (Pascal Haakmat)

tholenAntiSpam@hawaii.edu wrote:

>Are you unfamiliar with email?

You are right, we need some privacy.

>No.

I know you really mean yes, Dave.

>Non sequitur.

That too.

>You're welcome.  But that still doesn't answer my question.

I cannot answer all your questions, Dave. But I know the answer to your
hearts' desire.

>In what way, Pascal?

Let me show you, Dave.

>And even some contemporary Latin translations:
>
>veni, vidi, velcro:  I came, I saw, I stuck around
>domino vobiscum:  the pizza guy is here
>e pluribus septum:  multiple nose piercings
>sic transit gloria mundi:  Gloria got sick on the bus Monday

You get cuddlier all the time.

>Non sequitur.

That, too.

>Non sequitur.

Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?

>Why should I?

Thou art more lovely and more temperate.

>Non sequitur.

So long as men can breathe, or eyes can see;
So long lives this, and this gives life to thee.
     
-- 
CSMA posting style test
http://awacs.dhs.org/csmatest

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         13-Dec-99 04:04:25
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 03:31:20
Subj: Re: Navigator 4.7 is available!! OS/2 is behind again!!

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Lucien writes:

>>>>> ] #1:  It rained today.
>>>>> ]
>>>>> ] #2:  It rained today until sunset.
>>>>> ]
>>>>> ] The question:  did it rain all of the day or only some of the
>>>>> ] day?

Interesting to note that you deleted some text here, Lucien.  Notice
how two levels of indentation are missing.  Indeed, none of your
newest responses deal with the errors you made while taking the two
simple tests.  Too embarrasing for you, Lucien?

>>> Here is the JDK sentence
>>>
>>> 1) "OS/2 Java 1.1.8 implements Java 1.2 functionality. Bummer,
>>> bummer"

>> Pay particular attention to the additional information provided by the
>> reference to Java 1.1.8, Lucien.

> Uninformed response.

Incorrect (see below for why); how ironic.

> There is no grammatical quantifier in this sentence.

There is a logical quantifier in that sentence.  See why your response
is uninformed, and therefore ironic?  The problem is, I've informed you
of the logical quantification on several occasions.  Why do you continue
to ignore it?

>>> Here is Dave Tholen's response to Mike Timbol in that article:

>> How does my response to Timbol affect whether Joseph's statement has
>> additional information or not, Lucien?

> The reader will note that Dave found it necessary to clarify in his
> response to Mike whether ALL or SOME functionality was involved.

Incorrect, Lucien.  Just because I do something does not mean that I
found it necessary to do so.  For example, I often listen to the radio
when driving a car, though I certainly don't find it necessary.

> Let's review the relevant statement:

Reviewing the statement won't prove that I found it necessary to make
it, Lucien.

> "Irrelevant, given that Joseph did not say that OS/2 Java 1.1.8
> implements ALL of Java 1.2 functionality.  It does implement SOME
> of it, however."

Perfectly consistent with the fact that IBM called it "1.1.8" rather
than "1.2", Lucien.

> Moreover, the clarification was semantically consistent, fulfilling
> a requirement of the discourse.

Irrelevant, given that it doesn't prove that the sentence was ambiguous
to begin with, Lucien.

Perhaps you'd like to reproduce the sentence of Timbol's to which I
was responding, Lucien.  He felt that he could disprove Joseph's
statement by claiming that OS/2 couldn't run NetBeans.  Does that
prove that no Java 1.2 functionality was implemented in Java 1.1.8
for OS/2?  WATCOM FORTRAN 77 doesn't understand array syntax.  Does
that mean the compiler does not implement any Fortran 90 functionality?

> This evidence directly contravenes the alleged non-presence of any
> ambiguity.

Incorrect, Lucien, and quite illogical.  Just because you and Timbol
don't understand the logic that removes the ambiguity doesn't mean
that the statement is ambiguous as written.  It simply means that you
and he aren't being logical.

>>> Here is Dave's later statement concerning 'implements'

>> How does my statement concerning "implements" affect whether Joseph's
>> statement has additional information or not, Lucien?

> The reader will note that Dave found it necessary to clarify the
> predication of 'implements' WRT the quantity of functionality to me
> later in this thread.

Incorrect, Lucien.  Just because I do something does not mean that I
found it necessary to do so.  For example, I often listen to the radio
when driving a car, though I certainly don't find it necessary.

> Let's review the relevant statement:

Reviewing the statement won't prove that I found it necessary to make
it, Lucien.

> "The word 'implements' does allow for either 'some' or 'all'
> functionality, in the absence of any other information."

And how does that concern the JDK sentence, Lucien, as you've repeatedly
insisted?

> Moreover, the clarification was semantically consistent, fulfilling a
> requirement of the discourse.

Irrelevant, given that it doesn't prove that the sentence was ambiguous
to begin with, Lucien.

> This evidence directly contravenes the alleged non-presence of any
> ambiguity.

Incorrect, Lucien, and quite illogical.  Just because you and Timbol
don't understand the logic that removes the ambiguity doesn't mean
that the statement is ambiguous.

>>> Note the absence of any quantifiers in the JDK sentence

>> Incorrect, Lucien, given the presence of the additional information
>> provided by the reference to Java 1.1.8; if "all" functionality of
>> Java 1.2 had been implemented, then logically IBM would not have
>> called it 1.1.8.

> Uninformed response.

Incorrect (see below for why); how ironic.

> The reader will note that, if this additional grammatical information
> had been present

Why are you saying "if", Lucien?  That information was present in
Joseph's original statement to which Timbol replied "bullshit".  See
why your response is uninformed, and therefore ironic?

> such that the matter were clear,

The information was present, Lucien, and the statement was clear to
anyone capable of comprehending the logic behind it.

> Dave's clarificatory statement regarding whether SOME or ALL
> functionality was involved would not have been required

Illogical, Lucien.  The fact that I made the statement does not prove
that Joseph's statement was ambiguous.  I made the statement because
Timbol failed to comprehend the illogic of his own remark.  You are
erroneously trying to put the onus on the statement, rather than the
person comprehending the statement.

> and would not have made sense, as it does here.

You're erroneously presupposing that my statement was required to
clarify Joseph's statement, Lucien.  It was not, for reasons given
above.

> The reader will also note that Dave's repeated clarification of the
> ambiguity

What alleged ambiguity, Lucien?

> here and now further (and correctly but unwittingly) underscores
> the presence of the ambiguity in the JDK sentence (WRT
> quantification).

Illogical, Lucien.  My repeated clarification underscores the absence
of your ability to logically comprehend IBM's use of "1.1.8" rather
than "1.2".

>>> Note Dave's auxiliary statement (#2), crucially affirming and
>>> clarifying an ambiguity WRT quantification in that sentence.

>> Note Joseph's reference to Java 1.1.8, crucially affirming and
>> clarifying an ambiguity with respect to quantification in that
>> sentence by the very fact that IBM didn't call the JDK "1.2",
>> thus one can logically conclude that "all" Java 1.2 functionality
>> was *not* implemented.

> Uninformed response.

Incorrect (see below for why); how ironic.

> The reader will note that, if this additional grammatical information
> had been present

Why are you saying "if", Lucien?  That information was present in
Joseph's original statement to which Timbol replied "bullshit".  See
why your response is uninformed, and therefore ironic?

> such that the matter were clear,

The information was present, Lucien, and the statement was clear to
anyone capable of comprehending the logic behind it.

> Dave's clarificatory statement regarding whether SOME or ALL
> functionality was involved would not have been required

Illogical, Lucien.  The fact that I made the statement does not prove
that Joseph's statement was ambiguous.  I made the statement because
Timbol failed to comprehend the illogic of his own remark.  You are
erroneously trying to put the onus on the statement, rather than the
person comprehending the statement.

> and would not have made sense, as it does here.

You're erroneously presupposing that my statement was required to
clarify Joseph's statement, Lucien.  It was not, for reasons given
above.

> The reader will also note that Dave's repeated clarification of the
> ambiguity

What alleged ambiguity, Lucien?

> here and now further (and correctly but unwittingly) underscores
> the presence of the ambiguity in the JDK sentence (WRT
> quantification).

Illogical, Lucien.  My repeated clarification underscores the absence
of your ability to logically comprehend IBM's use of "1.1.8" rather
than "1.2".

>>> Clearly, in a fashion congruent with the "rained" and "costly
>>> mistakes" situations, the JDK sentence is ambiguous WRT
>>> quantification,

>> Clearly, in a fashion congruent with example sentence #2, the JDK
>> sentence is not ambiguous with respect to the "all" or "some"
>> quantification, because if "all" was intended, IBM would have
>> called the JDK "1.2" instead of "1.1.8".

> Uninformed response.

Incorrect (see below for why); how ironic.

> The reader will note that, if this additional grammatical information
> had been present

Why are you saying "if", Lucien?  That information was present in
Joseph's original statement to which Timbol replied "bullshit".  See
why your response is uninformed, and therefore ironic?

> such that the matter were clear,

The information was present, Lucien, and the statement was clear to
anyone capable of comprehending the logic behind it.

> Dave's clarificatory statement regarding whether SOME or ALL
> functionality was involved would not have been required

Illogical, Lucien.  The fact that I made the statement does not prove
that Joseph's statement was ambiguous.  I made the statement because
Timbol failed to comprehend the illogic of his own remark.  You are
erroneously trying to put the onus on the statement, rather than the
person comprehending the statement.

> and would not have made sense, as it does here.

You're erroneously presupposing that my statement was required to
clarify Joseph's statement, Lucien.  It was not, for reasons given
above.

> The reader will also note that Dave's repeated clarification of the
> ambiguity

What alleged ambiguity, Lucien?

> here and now further (and correctly but unwittingly) underscores
> the presence of the ambiguity in the JDK sentence (WRT
> quantification).

Illogical, Lucien.  My repeated clarification underscores the absence
of your ability to logically comprehend IBM's use of "1.1.8" rather
than "1.2".

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: rsteiner@visi.com                                 12-Dec-99 22:19:08
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 03:31:20
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: rsteiner@visi.com (Richard Steiner)

Here in comp.os.os2.marketplace, aboritz@cybernex.net (Alan Boritz)
spake unto us, saying:

>No, Doug, "a ton" there isn't, not hardly.  Depending upon your choice of
>delivery, the choice is certainly less than 5.  The choice of NNTP (and
>mail) clients with active support (now) is now down to 1.

There are considerably more than five newsreaders for OS/2, Alan.

-- 
   -Rich Steiner  >>>--->  rsteiner@visi.com  >>>---> Bloomington, MN
     OS/2 + BeOS + Linux + Solaris + Win95 + WinNT4 + FreeBSD + DOS
      + VMWare + Fusion + vMac + Executor = PC Hobbyist Heaven! :-)
                  * SLMR 2.0 #694 * Just kidding!!!  :-)

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: miharris@connectcorp.net                          13-Dec-99 04:50:29
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 03:31:20
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: miharris@connectcorp.net

On Sun, 12 Dec 1999 14:20:03, aboritz@cybernex.net (Alan Boritz) 
wrote:

 
Quotedl>I'm pretty sure I got the newsreader for free too.
Quotedl
QuotedlOnly if you got your registration key in a warez newsgroup, I'm
afraid.  The
Quotedlrest of us paid for it, and received no support assistance when it
wouldn't
Quotedlwork.  Innoval never released a free registration code for that
product.

You're WAY out of line here,... I got a FREE copy of the newsreader 
(not warez).  It was free to those of us who purchased the GREEN 
version of PRM v1.0. .... then again,... that may have been long 
before you came on board as an os/2'er!   Next, time be a little more 
careful about (accusing ppl of illegal actions) sticking your foot in 
your mouth,... you may have accidently stepped in something!  ;^)

                        _\\|//_    Pssst!
                       (` o-o ') /
        ---------ooO-(_)-Ooo------------

The Box said, "Requires Windows95 or better."
I use better, much better thank you...
                                         
Warped with OS/2 4.0 at FP 8 and Java 1.1.7A
_______________________________________
M   i   k   e   "D a B u l l"     H   a   r   r   i   s       

_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/  
Undernet
#OS/2: Chanop 
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/  

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From: leea@psynet.net                                   12-Dec-99 20:47:29
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 03:31:20
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: Lee Aroner  <leea@psynet.net>

Dan:

Thanks for responding so quickly. The news is all good. Linux 
servers is good. 

I really wasn't slamming the TS I spoke to: ISP's don't pay 
all that well, OS/2 folk are few and far between and, as we 
all know, it's a Windows world out there. But she could have 
been at least a little bit better prepared. In any case, 
having once been a network admin for a frame relay/ISP outfit 
that you would recognize if I named it, I fully understand the 
situation and it doesn't bother me, as I suspect it won't 
bother most OS/2 users - for the most part, we don't need tech 
support. 

Yes, I got through right away, yes the attitiude was 
excellent, she was really trying to be helpful, all good 
points!

I'll give the 800 number a shot in a minute, soon as I get it 
added to the firewall config. It definitely needs to be on the 
signup page.

One other point, they *really* need to do news. It's not that 
hard to put up a couple Linux boxes to run news from and UUNet 
can push to them no problem. Even if connects are good, I'd 
still have to maintain another connection just to get news - 
that keeps them in the "Convenient when on the road" catagory.

Thanks again for the response!

LRA 

(PS) Still using NetExtra - great program!

------------------------
> Lee, you make some good points.
> 
> Let me address servers first. All ISP800 mail servers are 
Linux. Some
> webhosting is Linux and some is other Unix variants. I think 
one site
> is AIX. There are no NT servers anywhere in the ISP800 
system. Let me
> stree that, NO NT SERVERS. See FAQ at http://isp800/os2/
> 
> Sure, it sounds like Windows support when you call tech 
support. I wish
> it weren't so but that is what AFST's market looks like. But 
AFST is
> willing to give OS/2 users a go. When I suggested the OS/2 
deal to
> AFST, it was received with enthusiasm. I talked to two 
"lead" tech
> support people who were thrilled about the prospects of OS/2 
users and
> recognize that OS/2, though a slim market share, comprises 
an
> important, talented, and savvy group.
> 
> As for naive, I don't know who you talked to. There are 
about 55 TS
> folks if memory serves me right. Questions: Did you get 
through
> quickly? Did tech support try to be helpful? Was attitude 
good?
> 
> As for TS not knowing the 800 number, the ISP800 brand name 
goes online
> to the general public, and in particular OS/2 users, Jan 3. 
Under
> various other brand names, already in operation for a long 
time, often
> with different callin numbers and different support 
criteria, (and
> different access numbers), I don't think you would have 
encountered
> this situation. I don't know for sure. I'll pass on your 
comment to
> AFST. Here it is. Try it. I'm getting 50666 right now:
> 
>    888-488-4418
> 
> I'll suggest that AFST put the number on the pre-reg pages. 
I know it
> is on the regular pages for the 1/3/2000 launch. Remember, 
this was a
> hurry up set of web pages to give OS/2 users an 
extra-special deal.
> 
> Remember, ISP800, is functionally designed for corporate 
accounts where
> performance, availability, wide-spread access, and 
reliability are key.
> I just think OS/2 users are a good fit. I think we got a 
good deal from
> AFST.
> 
> Dan
> 
> 
> 
> In article <Chameleon.991211210441.leea@FRED>,
>   Lee Aroner  <leea@psynet.net> wrote:
> > Dan:
> >
> > Appreciate the effort. However, when I called to size up 
the
> > offer I found the following:
> >
> > (1) As you said, sounds like windows support, and rather 
naive
> > at that. What the hey, I don't need or want support anyways.
> >
> > (2) The TS with the teenage sounding voice that answered
> > didn't have any idea what their servers run on. I prefer Nix
> > of some sort, Linux is fine, but I need to know. I won't
> > support an ISP that runs NT.
> >
> > (3) The TS also didn't know who their backbone supplier was,
> > but after a couple minutes checking, figured out it was UUNet.
> > That part's fine.
> >
> > (4) The TS did not have, or pretended not to know what the 800
> > number was. If I can't test for connection speed, I'm not
> > interested in signing up. I get 49333 connects every time
> > where I'm at now, and I won't switch to an unknown without
> > some random test connects.
> >
> > If you do want to make some money off this deal, get them to
> > give out the 800 number for connects, and find out what they
> > serve mail and pages from. Gotta know those two...
> >
> > LRA
> >
> > ------------------------
> >   From: innoval@ibm.net
> >   Subject: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!
> >   Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 16:35:30 GMT
> >   To: "comp.os.os2.advocacy"
> > <@news:comp.os.os2.advocacy@192.168.16.2>, "comp.os.os2.apps"
> > <@news:comp.os.os2.apps@192.168.16.2>, "comp.os.os2.comm"
> > <@news:comp.os.os2.comm@192.168.16.2>,
> > "comp.os.os2.marketplace"
> > <@news:comp.os.os2.marketplace@192.168.16.2>
> >
> > > In article <zterrarrkvfarg.fmk8te0.pminews@news.exis.net>,
> > >   "Michael K Greene" <mgreene@hotbot.com> wrote:
> > > > On Fri, 10 Dec 1999 17:32:00 -0800, Tim Martin wrote:
> > > > Any other company would get a "great!!!", but let's look
> > at who you
> > > > are talking about - Innoval????
> > >
> > > Okay. Let's get some facts straight before this goes to far
> > off topic.
> > >
> > > AFST is actually offering ISP800 to OS/2 users, not InnoVal. Read
> the
> > > details and the FAQ at isp800.com/os2/. I, Dan Porter, sought and
> > > engineered the deal for OS/2 users. Anyone else (any supporter and
> user
> > > of OS/2 like myself) could have done it just as easily. InnoVal may
> have
> > > withdrawn from the OS/2 software market, but InnoVal still has OS/2
> > > users and supporters, and the company does recognize that OS/2 users
> > > WERE important to us and ARE important to us.
> > >
> > > I, personally, and InnoVal, have a vested interest in AFST. When
> AFST
> > > closes a big multi-user deal (and they have closed some very big
> deals)
> > > I and InnoVal earn something for our efforts. I would be surprised
> if
> > > OS/2 users as a group (oh, I wish it could be so) will be a big
> enough
> > > deal to earn us anything -- certainly not at the prices being
> offered to
> > > OS/2 users. It was just something that I wanted to do.
> > >
> > > I've seen what AFST brings to the table with 65 tech support people
> (all
> > > trained unfortunately in Windows stuff), 800 re-routed access, high
> > > bandwidth, high capacity email, etc. It's a good deal, even if you
> don't
> > > like InnoVal. All InnoVal did was try to bring you a good price when
> > > AFST launches public consumer service under the ISP800 brand.
> > >
> > > I was the one who pulled the plug on InnoVal's direct involvement
> with
> > > OS/2 software. It was a financial thing that investors get concerned
> > > about. Add to that, that as a company, we were not good enough with
> > > support in the consumer marketplace. I thought we could be, but I
> was
> > > mistaken. The market wasn't there anymore. So blame me. Not InnoVal.
> > >
> > > InnoVal, BTW, is lobbying for OS/2 solutions, support, etc. with
> AFST
> > > and its business partners and vendors. We are not doing so because
> we
> > > are emotionally attached to OS/2 but because, in some areas, it
> makes
> > > good business sense.
> > >
> > > ISP800 makes good business sense. I feel good that we (all of us who
> > > want to be a part of this) are, in a small way, involving two new
> > > vendors (AFST and National Dialup) in the OS/2 world.
> > >
> > > Dan Porter, President
> > > InnoVal Systems Solutions, Inc.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > > Before you buy.
> > >
> >
> > ---------------End of Original Message-----------------
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > Name: Lee Aroner
> > E-mail: Lee Aroner <leea@nospm.psynet.net>
> >
> > (Please remove "nospm." to reply...)
> >
> > Date: 12/11/1999
> > Time: 20:58:54
> >
> >  _,_ /|
> >  \`o.O' ACK!
> >  =(___)=
> >     U
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> 
> 
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
> 

---------------End of Original Message-----------------

--------------------------------------------------------
Name: Lee Aroner
E-mail: Lee Aroner <leea@nospm.psynet.net>

(Please remove "nospm." to reply...)

Date: 12/12/1999
Time: 20:47:58

 _,_ /|
 \`o.O' ACK!
 =(___)=
    U

--------------------------------------------------------

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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(1:109/42)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: letoured@nospam.net                               12-Dec-99 21:29:17
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 03:31:20
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: letoured@nospam.net

 larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg) said:


>A contract isn't legal if it requires you to do something illegal.

larso you have refused to agree with this in the past. Now you are chasing
you own tail and repeating the same tired lines of crap that no one eles
(but your nut job friends here) agree with.  

What I want to know is; are you ever going to have anything worth saying?



>But if the 'something' in question SHOULDN'T BE illegal, then having the
>clause in the contract shouldn't be illegal either.  And therefore having
>the clause in the contract is perfectly just.

>> Get Mommy to explain this to you.

Actually, you do need a tutor, because you're the slowest student I've
ever seen.


_____________
Ed Letourneau <letoured@sover.net>

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: malstrom@wilde.oit.umass.edu                      12-Dec-99 23:57:14
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 03:31:20
Subj: Re: Oops, my fault

From: Jason <malstrom@wilde.oit.umass.edu>

michel@rua.net wrote:
: On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 20:38:34, "Kelly Robinson, the Xth Doctor" 
: <ispy@groovyshow.com> wrote:

<cut>

: I am curious though. Are you female or masquerading as such ?

Actually David is doing neither, The reference is to a TV show called "I 
Spy" (hence his email address) who's two main charaters are Alexander 
Scott and Kelly Robinson and neither character is female.  If you want to 
find out more, check out more at:

http://www.geocities.com/~timanov/ispy/index.html

And if you want to know who this person posting is, here is a list of 
charaters used in this newsgroup, some are related, some of them may not be.

dpcole <dpcole(no_spam)@ibm.net>
David P. Cole <dpcole(no_spam)@ibm.net>
dpcole <dpcole(no_spam)@pclink.com>
Xerophyte <dpcole(no_spam)@pclink.com>
Xerophyte <timanov(no_spam)@geocities.com>
Xerophyte <a_scott(no_spam)@ispy.com>
D. P. Cole <dpcole1(no_spam)@yahoo.com>
Rising-? <dpcole1(no_spam)@yahoo.com>
Infinity Rising -? <dpcole1(no_spam)@yahoo.com-nf>
Xerophyte <xerophyte(no_spam)@yahoo.com>
dpcole <xerophyte1(no_spam)@yahoo.com>
Xerophyte <xerophyte1(no_spam)@yahoo.com>
Kelly Robinson <xerophyte1(no_spam)@yahoo.com>
Kelly Robinson <ispy(no_spam)@groovyshow.com>

and the web page is using the contact info:

manofsteel25(no_spam)@yahoo.com and/or dpcole7(no_spam)@yahoo.com.

-Jason

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: Skree@stubble.jumpers                             12-Dec-99 22:52:00
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 03:31:20
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Skree@stubble.jumpers

In <3853ffd7_4@news.cadvision.com>, on 12/12/99 
   at 01:03 PM, "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com> said:

Q}> This is really intelligent coming from a guy who is in favor of
Q}> union busting.

Q}Yes.

Q}I advocate union busting.  That does not mean I advocate harm to
Q}individual union members.  It means that I advocate the decertification
Q}and breaking up of unions.

Q}For too long, union goons and their rent-a-mob tactics of threats and
Q}intimidation have harmed the owners of reputable corporations, and it is
Q}time for this crap to stop.

Q}Anything which undermines a union's influence is good.
Q}----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q}What have YOU done to bust a union today?
Q}----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q}Work better: Work union-free.

Q}Steven C. Britton
Q}Calgary

Q}www.cadvision.com/sbritton

Go ahead bust some unions - and while you're at it - get rid of medicare,
old age pensions, all pensions for that matter, universal school
educations all labour codes - including health and safety, minimum wage
standards, human rights, environmental laws, just cause dismissals, and
thousands of other good laws and societal standards that unions have
fought for in this country.

It is strange, that if not for the unions you hate so much - you probably
wouldn't even have the public voice with which to decry their existence.

 



-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Kenn Sunley
MR/2 ICE ver 1.60 reg'd
Date: 1999.12.12
Time: 22:52:01 - -0600

Warp 4
233Mhz PII
ATI Xpert@work
Gradd Rocks - thank you IBM
-----------------------------------------------------------

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: leea@psynet.net                                   12-Dec-99 21:03:21
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 03:31:20
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: Lee Aroner  <leea@psynet.net>

Dan:

Just tried the 888 number, connects are in the 48000 - 49333 
range, very acceptable performance.

Now if they could just announce the availability of news 
starting on Jan 1....

LRA

------------------------
> Lee, you make some good points.
> 
> Let me address servers first. All ISP800 mail servers are 
Linux. Some
> webhosting is Linux and some is other Unix variants. I think 
one site
> is AIX. There are no NT servers anywhere in the ISP800 
system. Let me
> stree that, NO NT SERVERS. See FAQ at http://isp800/os2/
> 
> Sure, it sounds like Windows support when you call tech 
support. I wish
> it weren't so but that is what AFST's market looks like. But 
AFST is
> willing to give OS/2 users a go. When I suggested the OS/2 
deal to
> AFST, it was received with enthusiasm. I talked to two 
"lead" tech
> support people who were thrilled about the prospects of OS/2 
users and
> recognize that OS/2, though a slim market share, comprises an
> important, talented, and savvy group.
> 
> As for naive, I don't know who you talked to. There are about 55 TS
> folks if memory serves me right. Questions: Did you get through
> quickly? Did tech support try to be helpful? Was attitude good?
> 
> As for TS not knowing the 800 number, the ISP800 brand name goes online
> to the general public, and in particular OS/2 users, Jan 3. Under
> various other brand names, already in operation for a long time, often
> with different callin numbers and different support criteria, (and
> different access numbers), I don't think you would have encountered
> this situation. I don't know for sure. I'll pass on your comment to
> AFST. Here it is. Try it. I'm getting 50666 right now:
> 
>    888-488-4418
> 
> I'll suggest that AFST put the number on the pre-reg pages. I know it
> is on the regular pages for the 1/3/2000 launch. Remember, this was a
> hurry up set of web pages to give OS/2 users an extra-special deal.
> 
> Remember, ISP800, is functionally designed for corporate accounts where
> performance, availability, wide-spread access, and reliability are key.
> I just think OS/2 users are a good fit. I think we got a good deal from
> AFST.
> 
> Dan
> 
> 
> 
> In article <Chameleon.991211210441.leea@FRED>,
>   Lee Aroner  <leea@psynet.net> wrote:
> > Dan:
> >
> > Appreciate the effort. However, when I called to size up the
> > offer I found the following:
> >
> > (1) As you said, sounds like windows support, and rather naive
> > at that. What the hey, I don't need or want support anyways.
> >
> > (2) The TS with the teenage sounding voice that answered
> > didn't have any idea what their servers run on. I prefer Nix
> > of some sort, Linux is fine, but I need to know. I won't
> > support an ISP that runs NT.
> >
> > (3) The TS also didn't know who their backbone supplier was,
> > but after a couple minutes checking, figured out it was UUNet.
> > That part's fine.
> >
> > (4) The TS did not have, or pretended not to know what the 800
> > number was. If I can't test for connection speed, I'm not
> > interested in signing up. I get 49333 connects every time
> > where I'm at now, and I won't switch to an unknown without
> > some random test connects.
> >
> > If you do want to make some money off this deal, get them to
> > give out the 800 number for connects, and find out what they
> > serve mail and pages from. Gotta know those two...
> >
> > LRA
> >
> > ------------------------
> >   From: innoval@ibm.net
> >   Subject: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!
> >   Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 16:35:30 GMT
> >   To: "comp.os.os2.advocacy"
> > <@news:comp.os.os2.advocacy@192.168.16.2>, "comp.os.os2.apps"
> > <@news:comp.os.os2.apps@192.168.16.2>, "comp.os.os2.comm"
> > <@news:comp.os.os2.comm@192.168.16.2>,
> > "comp.os.os2.marketplace"
> > <@news:comp.os.os2.marketplace@192.168.16.2>
> >
> > > In article <zterrarrkvfarg.fmk8te0.pminews@news.exis.net>,
> > >   "Michael K Greene" <mgreene@hotbot.com> wrote:
> > > > On Fri, 10 Dec 1999 17:32:00 -0800, Tim Martin wrote:
> > > > Any other company would get a "great!!!", but let's look
> > at who you
> > > > are talking about - Innoval????
> > >
> > > Okay. Let's get some facts straight before this goes to far
> > off topic.
> > >
> > > AFST is actually offering ISP800 to OS/2 users, not InnoVal. Read
> the
> > > details and the FAQ at isp800.com/os2/. I, Dan Porter, sought and
> > > engineered the deal for OS/2 users. Anyone else (any supporter and
> user
> > > of OS/2 like myself) could have done it just as easily. InnoVal may
> have
> > > withdrawn from the OS/2 software market, but InnoVal still has OS/2
> > > users and supporters, and the company does recognize that OS/2 users
> > > WERE important to us and ARE important to us.
> > >
> > > I, personally, and InnoVal, have a vested interest in AFST. When
> AFST
> > > closes a big multi-user deal (and they have closed some very big
> deals)
> > > I and InnoVal earn something for our efforts. I would be surprised
> if
> > > OS/2 users as a group (oh, I wish it could be so) will be a big
> enough
> > > deal to earn us anything -- certainly not at the prices being
> offered to
> > > OS/2 users. It was just something that I wanted to do.
> > >
> > > I've seen what AFST brings to the table with 65 tech support people
> (all
> > > trained unfortunately in Windows stuff), 800 re-routed access, high
> > > bandwidth, high capacity email, etc. It's a good deal, even if you
> don't
> > > like InnoVal. All InnoVal did was try to bring you a good price when
> > > AFST launches public consumer service under the ISP800 brand.
> > >
> > > I was the one who pulled the plug on InnoVal's direct involvement
> with
> > > OS/2 software. It was a financial thing that investors get concerned
> > > about. Add to that, that as a company, we were not good enough with
> > > support in the consumer marketplace. I thought we could be, but I
> was
> > > mistaken. The market wasn't there anymore. So blame me. Not InnoVal.
> > >
> > > InnoVal, BTW, is lobbying for OS/2 solutions, support, etc. with
> AFST
> > > and its business partners and vendors. We are not doing so because
> we
> > > are emotionally attached to OS/2 but because, in some areas, it
> makes
> > > good business sense.
> > >
> > > ISP800 makes good business sense. I feel good that we (all of us who
> > > want to be a part of this) are, in a small way, involving two new
> > > vendors (AFST and National Dialup) in the OS/2 world.
> > >
> > > Dan Porter, President
> > > InnoVal Systems Solutions, Inc.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > > Before you buy.
> > >
> >
> > ---------------End of Original Message-----------------
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > Name: Lee Aroner
> > E-mail: Lee Aroner <leea@nospm.psynet.net>
> >
> > (Please remove "nospm." to reply...)
> >
> > Date: 12/11/1999
> > Time: 20:58:54
> >
> >  _,_ /|
> >  \`o.O' ACK!
> >  =(___)=
> >     U
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> 
> 
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
> 

---------------End of Original Message-----------------

--------------------------------------------------------
Name: Lee Aroner
E-mail: Lee Aroner <leea@nospm.psynet.net>

(Please remove "nospm." to reply...)

Date: 12/12/1999
Time: 21:03:43

 _,_ /|
 \`o.O' ACK!
 =(___)=
    U

--------------------------------------------------------

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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(1:109/42)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenbot_pro@excite.com                          12-Dec-99 21:06:04
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 03:31:20
Subj: Re: Dimsdale digest, volume 2451514

From: TholenBotPro <tholenbot_pro@excite.com>

In article <tholenbot-052401.22585012121999@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>, 
tholenbot <tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu> wrote:

> In article 
> <EBF2A3D3CFB0D7A1.D74B45A71B29B5BB.C7284BD91A4CE212@lp.airnews.net>, 
> TholenBotPro <tholenbot_pro@excite.com> wrote:
> 
> > In article <tholenbot-1F68B3.21095912121999@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>, 
> > tholenbot <tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu> wrote:
> > 
> > > In article 
> > > <943A24F40D7BA8AC.6A3ADFE94027DC00.F8D3FE80172DAD46@lp.airnews.net>, 
> > > TholenBotPro <tholenbot_pro@excite.com> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > In article 
> > > > <tholenbot-752D72.08450907121999@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>, 
> > > > tholenbot <tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > In article 
> > > > > <CABEA840AC12DBA0.43AE1E9722902FBD.F2C306C752FDB5D3@lp.airnews.net
> > > > > >,
> > > > >  
> > > > > TholenBotPro� <tholenbot_pro@excite.com> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > Forging stdio again Aaron?  I wonder how Bluestreak.org 
> > > > > > > > > > would 
> > > > > > > > > > react 
> > > > > > > > > > to 
> > > > > > > > > > the information that you're posting forgery.
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > I wonder how Louis Freeh would react to the information 
> > > > > > > > > that 
> > > > > > > > > you're 
> > > > > > > > > jumping into discussions again, Chris.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Irrelevant, 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Why?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Comprehend context, Eric.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I do, Chris.  I see you didn't answer the question.
> > > > 
> > > > Incorrect.  More evidence of your lack of reading comprehension 
> > > > skills.
> > > 
> > > See what I mean?
> > 
> > No, given that you predictably butchered the context. 
> 
> Illogical, given that I did not butcher your failure to answer the 
> question.

Incorrect.

> > Do you find this 
> > "entertaining", Eric?
> 
> Irrelevant.

On the contrary, given that the context is your entertainment.

-- 
"You're erroneously presuming that I'm being pedantic."
          -- Dave Tholen

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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(1:109/42)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         13-Dec-99 05:17:00
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 03:31:20
Subj: Re: Haakmat digest, volume 2451526

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Today's Haakmat digest:

1> You are right, we need some privacy.

Then why did you post to the newsgroup?

1> I know you really mean yes, Dave.

What makes you think that you know what I really mean?

1> That too.

Non sequitur.

1> I cannot answer all your questions, Dave. But I know the answer to
1> your hearts' desire.

On what basis do you make that claim?

1> Let me show you, Dave.

How?

1> You get cuddlier all the time.

Illogical.

1> That, too.

Non sequitur.

1> Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?

Non sequitur.

1> Thou art more lovely and more temperate.

Non sequitur.

1> So long as men can breathe, or eyes can see;
1> So long lives this, and this gives life to thee.

Non sequitur.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
 * Origin: Usenet: IFA B-111 (1:109/42)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           13-Dec-99 00:26:16
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 03:31:21
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <3853fd63_4@news.cadvision.com>, on 12/12/99 at 12:53 PM,
   "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com> said:

> Very true.  If Lars were employed by the U of A, you would have a valid
> argument.

> He isn't -- he's a student there.  Students do not represent their
> university.

And students can be expelled for conduct detrimental to the good name of
the University.

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           13-Dec-99 00:28:22
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 03:31:21
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <3853C64C.3391518@ibm.net>, on 12/12/99 at 10:59 AM,
   Joseph <josco@ibm.net> said:

> I have a problem understanding vulgar metaphors.   It's probably because 
> I don't encounter them in my day-to-day life and I don't use them in
> conversation at work or home.  The vulgarities which are second nature
> to you tend to be confusing to other people.

There is a very, very popular book in print here in the US called, "Don't
Piss on My Leg and Tell Me It's Raining." It was written by a New York
State Supreme Court Judge, Judith Shindlein who now has a TV show called
"Judge Judy".

The expression is not vulgar.

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           13-Dec-99 00:35:24
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 03:31:21
Subj: Re: When will it be 100% done?

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <3853FF89.A538B47C@stny.rr.com>, on 12/12/99 at 03:03 PM,
   Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> said:


> Well Boob... check the message headers for one thing.  Then take a
> stroll over to http://emuos2.vintagegaming.com.  And when you're done
> wrenching your foot out of your mouth, then tell me I'm not "capable of
> using OS/2".

Considering the total ignorance you display here I can easily conclude
that someone else wrote the code you claim. And only a fool would write
game code for a business operating system.

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           13-Dec-99 00:37:08
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 03:31:21
Subj: Re: Jury scheduled to hear Caldera vs. Microsoft next January

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <830pqv$rrf$1@newsource.ihug.co.nz>, on 12/13/99 at 07:32 AM,
   "Stuart Fox" <stuartf@datacom.co.nz> said:

> > Until you run the MS CD which DOES NOT COME THROUGH TECHNET on our
> > clients' networks, you are unqualified to make the statements above. Until
> > you have tried to run the MS CD, not the one from Technet, on my machine
> > you are unqualified to make the above statement. Until you have run the MS
> > CD on my ThinkPad 390e with the version of Win 98 installed by IBM, you
> > are unqualified to make the above statement. --

> I've run them both - and guess what Boob?  No intermediate reboots.

Again you prove yourself a liar. You have not run them on my clients'
networks and machines nor on mine.

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: sbritton@cadvision.com                            12-Dec-99 22:40:15
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 03:31:21
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com>

Joseph wrote:
>
> If you price a good below cost then you impede a freedom - a probable
violation of
> international trade laws.  Even MS was capable of arguing they were going
to make
> up money on web browser hits and advertisements.

Again, you're confusing "legality" with "morality".  The two are not the
same.

It may be ILLEGAL to price a good below cost, but it is certainly not
IMMORAL to do so.

Of course, the fact that it is ILLEGAL to price a good below cost just
simply proves how tyrranical and oppressive our governments really are: if
someone wants to sell a widget below the cost of manufacture, it's their own
stupidity.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
What have YOU done to bust a union today?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Work better: Work union-free.

Steven C. Britton
Calgary

www.cadvision.com/sbritton



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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: p@awacs.dhs.org                                   13-Dec-99 05:45:20
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 03:31:21
Subj: Re: Haakmat digest, volume 2451526

From: p@awacs.dhs.org (Pascal Haakmat)

Dave Tholen wrote:

>Then why did you post to the newsgroup?

I want to share my love for you with the world.

>What makes you think that you know what I really mean?

I just feel so connected to you.

>Non sequitur.

See? I knew you were going to say that.

>On what basis do you make that claim?

Our hearts are one, Dave.

>How?

I'm afraid I can only show you in private.

>Illogical.

You silly!

>Non sequitur.

And that.

>Non sequitur.

And that.

>Non sequitur.

And that.

>Non sequitur.

All that, and brains too.

-- 
CSMA posting style test
http://awacs.dhs.org/csmatest

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From: sbritton@cadvision.com                            12-Dec-99 22:50:22
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 03:31:21
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com>

Kenn Sunley wrote:

> Go ahead bust some unions - and while you're at it - get rid of medicare,
...

Sure!

> old age pensions, ...

Absolutely!

> ... all pensions for that matter,

People should be responsible for their own pensions.  If the company they
work for wants to set up a group pension plan, that's fine too.  Government
has no responsibility in the matter.

> universal school educations ...

Without a doubt!

> all labour codes - including health and safety...

Don't work for companies that don't keep responsible health and safety
codes.  You don't need a union to uphold that.  If nobody works for such a
company, they can't produce; and therefore they disappear.

... or, at least, only those willing to work in those conditions would work
there, and the company wouldn't produce _good_ stuff, and they'd disappear.

> ... minimum wage standards...

Sure!  Minimum wage kills jobs.

> human rights...

Don't be stupid.

The only human rights are (a) the right to life, (b) the right to liberty,
and (c) the right to own and enjoy property.

Any other "right" is a fictitious construct.

> ... environmental laws...

Sure!  If a company isn't being environmentally responsible, then people
won't do business with them.

> just cause dismissals ...

Unions have nothing to do with that; it's a violation of one's right to
liberty because the company, by not dismissing with just cause, is
initiating force against the person they're canning.

> and thousands of other good laws and societal standards that unions have
> fought for in this country.

There aren't any.

> It is strange, that if not for the unions you hate so much - you probably
> wouldn't even have the public voice with which to decry their existence.

That's pure, unadulterated crap.  The three rights I listed above have
always existed and will always exist.  Unions had nothing to do with them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
What have YOU done to bust a union today?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Work better: Work union-free.

Steven C. Britton
Calgary

www.cadvision.com/sbritton



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From: letoured@nospam.net                               13-Dec-99 00:43:26
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 03:31:21
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: letoured@nospam.net

Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com> said:

>> >For too long, union goons and their rent-a-mob tactics of threats and
>> >intimidation have harmed the owners of reputable corporations, and it is
>> >time for this crap to stop.
>>
>> I asked you to document this before. You run for cover like a dip-shit
>> coward every time someone puts you on the spot -- so are you gone cite
>> examples or hide again?

>How about the UFCW harassing customers during the Safeway strike in 1997?
>How about the violence on the Calgary Herald picket line?
>How about the violence on CUPW picket lines?

Need more details here big guy.

Item 1. The reports I see is about asking customers to boycott Safeway,
and 4 or 5 workers being arrested for making threats to strike breakers --
that's real dangerous stuff up you have up there. 

Item 2.  Calgary Herald. According to what I see, the readership has
falled 45% because of public support for the union. Didn't find the
violence stuff in the news. 

Item 3.  All I see on the violence is, well I'll quote a witness; "I guess
his fingers [the Bank Manager] got hurt on someone's windpipe."

Got any more examples of the big bad unions? Anything beyond Canada? Is
this your best "union goons and their rent-a-mob tactics" stuff?



_____________
Ed Letourneau <letoured@sover.net>

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From: sbritton@cadvision.com                            12-Dec-99 22:51:24
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 03:31:21
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com>

Bob Germer wrote:
>
> > He isn't -- he's a student there.  Students do not represent their
> > university.
>
> And students can be expelled for conduct detrimental to the good name of
> the University.

... and (a) he isn't being detrimental to the "good name of the University";
(b) your motivation for your assault against him is based solely on hatred.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
What have YOU done to bust a union today?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Work better: Work union-free.

Steven C. Britton
Calgary

www.cadvision.com/sbritton



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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: sbritton@cadvision.com                            12-Dec-99 23:01:02
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 03:31:21
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com>

Ed Letourneau wrote:
>
> >How about the UFCW harassing customers during the Safeway strike in 1997?
> >How about the violence on the Calgary Herald picket line?
> >How about the violence on CUPW picket lines?
>
> Need more details here big guy.
>
> Item 1. The reports I see is about asking customers to boycott Safeway,
> and 4 or 5 workers being arrested for making threats to strike breakers --
> that's real dangerous stuff up you have up there.

Customers in Edmonton had to run a "gauntlet" of angry striking Safeway
workers on their way out of the store, many being physically pushed and
shoved as screaming lunatics got in their faces.

I'd have fired the lot of them on the spot.

> Item 2.  Calgary Herald. According to what I see, the readership has
> falled 45% because of public support for the union.

Not this reader...

In fact, I'm thinking of putting my subscription back to daily.

> Didn't find the violence stuff in the news.

Funny.  Workers have been arrested.

> Item 3.  All I see on the violence is, well I'll quote a witness; "I guess
> his fingers [the Bank Manager] got hurt on someone's windpipe."

There's been many CUPW walkouts (most near Christmas -- go figure).

> Got any more examples of the big bad unions? Anything beyond Canada? Is
> this your best "union goons and their rent-a-mob tactics" stuff?

Check into the last Ontario election and what the union goons did to the
Mike Harris campaign (he won, by the way).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
What have YOU done to bust a union today?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Work better: Work union-free.

Steven C. Britton
Calgary

www.cadvision.com/sbritton



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From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               13-Dec-99 01:52:25
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 03:31:21
Subj: Re: When will it be 100% done?

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

I noticed that you conveniently snipped the rest of the article exposing your
idiotic attempt to cover up your prejudice.  No surprise there.  Here are some
of the high points:

> > > Bullshit. You are a liar about so many things,
> > 
> > Such as...?

Note:  no response.  Nothing to back up your lie.
 
> > > I don't believe you use or are capable of using OS/2.
> >
> > Well Boob... check the message headers for one thing.  Then take a
> > stroll over to http://emuos2.vintagegaming.com.  And when you're done
> > wrenching your foot out of your mouth, then tell me I'm not "capable of
> > using OS/2".
> 
> Considering the total ignorance you display here

What alleged ignorance, Boob?  I've noticed you failed to provide anything to
back up your statement.  I'm not the one claiming that the opinion of Candians
is worth less than garbage, nor that Arabs are terrorists who go around
"blowing things up".  Nor did I claim that McCoy was a drunken Irishman
(snicker), in spite of my many disagreements with him.

> I can easily conclude that someone else wrote the code you claim.

And allowed me to plaster my name all over it, own and maintain a web page for
it, and make official announcements about it?  Right Bob.  That's smart
thinking.  That "makes quite a lot of sense" and is "logically consistent
within itself" as someone else might say.

The fact that I wrote the code is easily verifiable by anyone, which is more
than can be said for your musings and anecdotes about your clients, your
baseless slurs and insults notwithstanding.

> And only a fool would write game code for a business operating system.

IBM pushed OS/2 Warp as "The Totally Cool Way to Run Your Computer".  Does
this
sound like a slogan for a business operating system to you?

I suppose all of those DOS and Win 3.1 game developers were fools too, after
all, computers were intended for business use.  Those damned fool millionares.

Instead of dreaming up insults and slurs, how about you use that globe atop
your neck to think about what you are going to write before you write it? 
That
could go a long way toward keeping your foot out of your mouth in the future.

> > > > > deliberately took statements out of context in another newsgroup.
> > > 
> > > > How does one take:
> > > > "Since you are a Canuck, your opinoin is worth less than garbage."
> > > 
> > > You took it out of context as you well know.
> > 
> > The statement was overly generalized, as you well know.  Your excuses do
little
> > to cover that up.

Note:  no response.  So much for your pathetic attempt to cover up your
prejudice.

> > > I was speaking of Canadian's opinions having any value whatsoever in our 

> > > courts in general and in the MS case in particular. Something of no
value 
> > > whatsoever is garbage.
> > 
> > And the reasoning behind this would be..?  (I mean besides prejudice.)

Note:  no response.  We're left to draw our own conclusions here.  Pretty
clear-cut.

> > > > "Typical conduct of an Arab terrorist. You can't win a rational
argument
> > > > so you attempt to blow others up."
> > > 
> > > > out of context?  They are all-inclusive statements.  That's what
racism
> > > > is all about.
> > > 
> > > Again you lie.
> > 
> > You are erroneously presupposing that I lied before.

Note:  no response.  No evidence of a previous or current lie.

> > > It is not an all-inclusive statement. It merely says, as I explained at 
> > > length which you choose to ignore to try to give your lies the veneer of 

> > > validity, I was differentiating between those who break the law because
of
> > > thier heritage from madmen like McVey, the Unabomber, etc.
> > 
> > Sorry Boob, but you made the original statement to Ali (aka Hobbyist) and
this
> > pathetic excuse does not fit into that discussion at all.  Here's the
original
> > context back.  Note the lack of discussion of breaking laws due to
heritage vs.
> > madmen:
> >  
> > BG] I am just short of my 60th birthday.
> > 
> > AM] How can you be that age and yet act like an asshole so much???!!! 
> > AM] The years should incur a level of maturity which puts you above the 
> > AM] sort of behaviour you display here on usenet.
> > AM] Tsk. Tsk.
> > AM] Yes, it is a personal attack. Just up your street BTW.
> > 
> > BG] Typical conduct of an Arab terrorist. You can't win a rational
argument 
> > BG] so you attempt to blow others up.
> > 
> > Sorry.  Your pathetic excuse cannot cover this one up.

Note:  no response.  Sorry to embarass you by exposing your cover-up attempt.

> > > > > And as I clearly stated the term Arab terrorist was used to
differentiate
> > > > > between true believers (Arab terrorists) who are acting according to 
their
> > > > > training and belief as opposed to nut cases like the Unabomber or
the
> > > > > school shooters who are mentally ill at best.
> > > 
> > > > Nice try boob, but putting the statement back in context, as you
wanted
> > > > to do above, your statement toward Ali (aka Hobbyist) had no such
> > > > intended meaning.
> > > 
> > > You are absolutely wrong. You are as wrong as Lars Ormberg claiming that
> > > MS is not a monopoly.
> > 
> > Nice pontification.  Here's the articles in question:
> >
http://x29.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps/getdoc.xp?AN=548720410&search=thread&CONTEXT=9450
27566.1026162764&HIT_CONTEXT=945027566.1026162764&HIT_NUM=4&hitnum=16
>
http://x29.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps/getdoc.xp?AN=549012825&search=thread&CONTEXT=9450
27566.1026162764&HIT_CONTEXT=945027566.1026162764&HIT_NUM=4&hitnum=19
> > 
> > Note well the lack of discussion of breaking laws due to heritage vs.
madmen. 
> > Then come back and tell me I'm "absolutely wrong".

Note:  no response.  No comeback in the light of this evidence, as well there
shouldn't be.  Also no evidence to back up his pontification that I am
"absolutely wrong".

> > > > > But the truth has no impact on sociopaths like you.
> > > 
> > > > How ironic, coming from the sociopath who said:
> > > > "Since you are a Canuck, your opinoin is worth less than garbage."
> > > > "Typical conduct of an Arab terrorist. You can't win a rational
argument
> > > > so you attempt to blow others up."
> > > 
> > > Again, Marty, you prove your total lack of a germ of an intellect.
> > 
> > How long will you persist with your lies?

He's still at it!

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: pcparody@removethis.pacbell.net                   12-Dec-99 22:23:18
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 03:31:21
Subj: Re: Haakmat digest, volume 2451517

From: edwinbot <pcparody@removethis.pacbell.net>

In article 
<1696357B74CFAE33.77B8BCFB4C8143C9.34B7966AD29BC191@lp.airnews.net>, 
TholenBotPro <tholenbot_pro@excite.com> wrote:

> In article <FMFvHC.9s2.0.queen@torfree.net>, da728@torfree.net (Karl 
> Knechtel) wrote:
> 
> > Pascal Haakmat (p@awacs.dhs.org) wrote:
> > : tholenbot wrote:
> > 
> > : >> >> >> Whatever turns you on, Dave.
> > : >> >> >
> > : >> >> >Trying to get a "rise" out of him, Pascal?
> > : >> >> 
> > : >> >> Do you regard him as "fallen", Eric?
> > : >> >
> > : >> >Reading comprehension problems, Pascal?
> > : >> 
> > : >> Comprehend context, Eric.
> > : >
> > : >Illogical.
> > 
> > : Why?
> > 
> > Don't you know, Pascal?
> 
> Jumping into discussions again, Karl?

How Mac advocate of him.
-- 
The epitome of epicyclic ephemera

(This is a parody)

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: rlackl1@attglobal.net                             13-Dec-99 02:30:08
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 05:13:27
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: rlackl1@attglobal.net

In <3859ea15.5012307@news.borg.com>, on 12/12/99 
   at 06:36 PM, jglatt@spamgone-borg.com (Jeff Glatt) said:

>What's so exemplary about leaving the OS/2 marketplace? Virtually all
>commercial OS/2 developers have done so by now, and I have no doubt that
>countless other developers have done so too. Hell, a great number of
>endusers have done so too. It's not like leaving behind OS/2 is uncommon.
>Just ask IBM and they'll tell you (in a leaked memo, probably)

Actually, at least a year ago I mentioned that I was an OS/2 user to our
'friendly' IBM (mainframe) CE, and he smirked and said that IBM wasn't
going to continue supporting it.  OS/2 still runs on the IOSP boxes that
control the big IBM boxes, but I don't know for how much longer.

-------
rlackl1@attglobal.net
-------

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From: brentdaviesNOSPAM@home.com                        13-Dec-99 08:40:18
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 05:13:27
Subj: Re: Jury scheduled to hear Caldera vs. Microsoft next January

From: "Brent Davies" <brentdaviesNOSPAM@home.com>

Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com> wrote in message
news:3853b3d9$9$obot$mr2ice@news.pics.com...
| On <dmI44.1004$ds3.21279@news1.alsv1.occa.home.com>, on 12/12/99 at 07:43
| AM,
|    "Brent Davies" <brentdaviesNOSPAM@home.com> said:
|
| > Yes, Ben is right.  TechNet is a Microsoft product used by anyone who
| > wants to provide a decent level of support to their Microsoft customers.
| > The IE5 installation on my TechNet CD is EXACTLY the same as it is on
| > your CD.  The only difference is that IE5 is in its own directory on the
| > CD, along with many other utilities on the same CD, more efficiently
| > utilizing the space.  There is no difference between the two CDs where
| > the IE5 installation process is concerned.  Run setup, reboot once,
| > login, allow setup to modify the user's settings.  No second reboot.
|
| Our firm does not support Windows 9x. We support applications, hardware,
| their network, but we do not resolve Windows 9x problems or applications
| beyond those necessary for network support.
|
| Until you run the MS CD which DOES NOT COME THROUGH TECHNET on our
| clients' networks, you are unqualified to make the statements above. Until
| you have tried to run the MS CD, not the one from Technet, on my machine
| you are unqualified to make the above statement. Until you have run the MS
| CD on my ThinkPad 390e with the version of Win 98 installed by IBM, you
| are unqualified to make the above statement. --

You are truly a fool.  I HAVE installed IE5 from the "MS CD", as you call
it.
I have also performed the "administrative download" of IE5, which downloads
and extracts the installation files only, without performing the actual
installation.
In all three cases (including the TechNet CD) there are the same number of
cabinet files with the same sizes and data/time stamps.  The ie5setup.exe is
the
same, as are all the other files.  You see, I AM in the business of
supporting
Microsoft product and it IS my job to know what I'm installing, when, where,
and how.  I have done the research that you have NOT done.  It is YOU
who are unqualified to tell me what I can or cannot claim.

-B


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From: brentdaviesNOSPAM@home.com                        13-Dec-99 08:45:08
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 05:13:27
Subj: Re: Jury scheduled to hear Caldera vs. Microsoft next January

From: "Brent Davies" <brentdaviesNOSPAM@home.com>

Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com> wrote in message
news:38548624$4$obot$mr2ice@news.pics.com...
| On <830pqv$rrf$1@newsource.ihug.co.nz>, on 12/13/99 at 07:32 AM,
|    "Stuart Fox" <stuartf@datacom.co.nz> said:
|
| > > Until you run the MS CD which DOES NOT COME THROUGH TECHNET on our
| > > clients' networks, you are unqualified to make the statements above.
Until
| > > you have tried to run the MS CD, not the one from Technet, on my
machine
| > > you are unqualified to make the above statement. Until you have run
the MS
| > > CD on my ThinkPad 390e with the version of Win 98 installed by IBM,
you
| > > are unqualified to make the above statement. --
|
| > I've run them both - and guess what Boob?  No intermediate reboots.
|
| Again you prove yourself a liar. You have not run them on my clients'
| networks and machines nor on mine.

Please explain to me how that matters?  Are you familiar with the OSI model?
Do you understand how the inner workings of a network are totally abstracted
from the applications that are run on it?  You clients' network(s) have ZERO
affect on the installation of ANY application, much less that of IE5.

And to answer your next whine, I have performed IE4 and IE5 installation on
Win95(a)(b)(osr2), Win98, NT 4 Server and Workstation.  I have NEVER
had to perform these intermediate reboots that you claim to be required to
do.

Being older than Time doesn't make you more qualified than us to speak on
this subject.

-B


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From: brentdaviesNOSPAM@home.com                        13-Dec-99 08:51:10
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 05:13:27
Subj: Re: Jury scheduled to hear Caldera vs. Microsoft next January

From: "Brent Davies" <brentdaviesNOSPAM@home.com>

Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com> wrote in message
news:3853b5f4$10$obot$mr2ice@news.pics.com...
| On <slrn8555b2.h5t.float@incandescent.firedrake.org>, on 12/11/99 at 06:18
| PM,
|    float@incandescent.firedrake.org (void) said:
|
|
| > TechNet is MS.  Let me go get my crowbar, your foot can't be comfortable
| > there.
|
| You are obviously speaking of yourself. As another MS whore admitted the
| two CD's are different. He claimed the installation routine is the same.
| That may or may not be true. But in any case, no one who hasn't tried to
| install the update on the hardware in questsion can claim any knowledge of
| my experience.
|
| In the case of my ThinkPad 390e and my PII 400 console, I make changes to
| the default CMOS setup to accomodate the greater capabilities of the
| various operating systems installed thereon. Perhaps this confuses the
| technically inferior MS product. In the case of the client machines on a
| Novell Network, whoever installed Windows 98 may not have done it
| correctly causing the behavior I've described, particularly since the
| NIC's were not PnP in those workstations for the most part. Immaterial. I
| saw what I saw. I can duplicate it repeatedly by merely formatting the C
| partition and restore it to immediately before using the CD.

Once again this entire pile of crap you've just spewed makes no difference
to the installation of an application within the operating system, so long
as
the app doesn't need to use the hardware that the CMOS changes (ie:
pcAnywhere needing to know where your COM ports are installed).

I run an IBM ThinkPad 390e 2626 on my desk.  It is my primary
workstation.  I have installed Win98, NT 4 Workstation, and now W2K
on it.  I have performed the IE5 installation on it as well (when I
installed
Win98 and NT Workstation) and no intermediate reboots.  Are you
trying to tell us that changing COM ports or video BIOS shadowing
settings within the CMOS can affect the installation of a program that
only uses the network interface?

You are delusional and you're attempting to inflict your delusions upon
us.  I find that offensive.

-B


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: animepc@ix.netcom.com                             13-Dec-99 08:52:07
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 05:13:27
Subj: Re: OS2 garners 'OTHER' status in operating system use

From: David Lowenstein <animepc@ix.netcom.com>

As usual, SOny never cared about the PC. :( Who will save Vaio from its doom?
Playstaion II
technology should have been in a computer! Sony is going to release a
playstation II workstation
next year, but it would run Linux. :( (So called "Phase 1" in Sony terms, but
it's only for
entertainment. Once again a great technology get wasted on a blasted game
console. Does anyone care
about computers anymore?) -suzuki 

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: brentdaviesNOSPAM@home.com                        13-Dec-99 08:52:05
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 05:13:27
Subj: Re: Jury scheduled to hear Caldera vs. Microsoft next January

From: "Brent Davies" <brentdaviesNOSPAM@home.com>

DC <dc@pdq.net> wrote in message
news:6pd75s0bg12a3id2ierh492471581n9nen@4ax.com...
| On Sun, 12 Dec 1999 09:44:33 -0500, Bob Germer
| <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com> wrote:
|
| >In the case of my ThinkPad 390e and my PII 400 console, I make changes to
| >the default CMOS setup to accomodate the greater capabilities of the
| >various operating systems installed thereon. Perhaps this confuses the
|
| I see.  What, exactly, did you do?

"What, exactly, did you do just before it broke all by itself?"

                                                -unknown

-B


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: jknott@ibm.net                                    12-Dec-99 09:59:29
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 10:24:20
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: jknott@ibm.net (James Knott)

I assume this offer is valid only in the U.S.?  :-(


In article <3851A98F.459420AF@WarpCity.com>,
Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com> wrote:
>Here's some hot news for all you NON-Warp City Members:
>
>FST Inc, has joined in a business partnership arrangement
>with National DialUp Services and InnoVal Systems Solutions,
>to provide a low-cost nationwide ISP service for OS/2 users.
>ISP800, a private brand ISP for corporate customers, is
>inaugurating service for consumers on January 3,  2000.
>
>Extra special prices are available for any OS/2 user who
>pre-registers for  the service by December 30, 1999. In
>addition, three subscribers will be selected, at random,
>from the first 100 OS/2 users who signup. These three
>subscribers will receive free ISP service for one year until
>December 31, 2000.
>
>Highlights of ISP800 service include:
>
>Your choice of:
>
>Unlimited 56K access through an 800 dialup number or unlimited service
>using a local dialup number.
>
>A high performance and high capacity POP3 email mailbox
>
>SMTP outbound email
>
>Toll free 24/7 technical support
>
>Very low cost for OS/2 users. ISP800 may also be used with Linux,
>Mac, and  Windows95/98 client platforms.
>
>No signup fees. You may cancel the service at the end of any month.
>
>Anyone who travels, uses the Internet from more than one permanent
>location, or lives in an area not supported by a local access number,
>is encouraged to use the 800 number. Performance on the 800 number
>is equal to that of local access numbers since all connections are
>automatically and instantly re-directed through a close-proximity
>modem. Access with the 800 number is available anywhere in the
>United States where a dial tone is available. THERE IS NEVER AN
>ADDITIONAL FEE FOR USING THE 800 NUMBER TO ACCESS ISP800.
>Airfone (in plane service) and some hotels do charge access
>fees when you dial an 800 number.
>
>ISP800 Prices:
>
>    Regular service:   $19.95
>    For all OS/2 Users:   $15.95 ***
>
>*** Anyone who pre-registers for the service by December 30, 1999, will
>receive the first year of service for only $11.95 per month. You must be
>an
>OS/2 user to pre-register at this price. Your pre-registration must be
>received by 5:00pm on 12/30/99.
>
>Additional email accounts are $3.95 per month. Limit is four additional
>email accounts.
>
>Please note: There is no direct USENET newsgroup access at this time. If
>
>enough OS/2 users subscribe and there is sufficient interest, ISP800
>will
>add newsgroup access for OS/2 users. Deja (dejanews) and other web-based
>
>newsgroup services may be used in lieu of standard USENET.
>
>For additional information, and to signup for ISP800, please visit
>http://isp800.com/os2. In particular, see the price page and the FAQ
>page.
>For additional information send an email to os2isp@innoval.com.
>
>---------------------
>
>The OS/2 Community should sit up and take notice and support
>this new enterprise!
>
>Tim Martin
>The OS/2 Guy
>Warp City (http://warpcity.com)
>"Y2K Special Discount Memberships Close 12/15!)
>

-- 
E-mail jknott@ca.ibm.com
_________________________________________________________________________
The above opinions are my own and not those of ISM Corp., a subsidiary of
IBM Canada Ltd.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         13-Dec-99 11:15:25
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 10:24:20
Subj: Re: Amodeo digest, volume 2451526

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

It's been said that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, but is
Marty trying to flatter me, or avoid addressing the issues I raised?
Here's today's digest:

1> Tholen is becoming more like Bob Germer every day.  He can't tolerate
1> anyone who holds a different opinion than he does, as evidenced by his
1> responses to Curtis Bass and myself, so he makes sweeping, incorrect
1> generalizations about all of said person's postings and uses it as an
1> excuse to dismiss said person. Here's today's digest:
 
"Is it because of your sex life that you are going through all of this?"

I warned you about going down that path, Marty.

2> Go for it.  Haven't seen it in quite a while myself, and I sure several
2> Mac folks would be interested as well.
 
"Is it because of your sex life that you are going through all of this?"

I warned you about going down that path, Marty.

3> I think you addressed this in reply to the wrong article.  It was far
3> more appropriate to Tholen's latest posting in the thread titled
3> "Amodeo Digest".
 
"Is it because of your sex life that you are going through all of this?"

I warned you about going down that path, Marty.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: wsonna@ibm.net                                    13-Dec-99 12:14:16
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 10:24:20
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: wsonna@ibm.net (William Sonna)

On Sun, 12 Dec 1999 18:36:15, jglatt@spamgone-borg.com (Jeff Glatt) 
wrote:

> >William Sonna
> >Innoval, in contrast, was exemplary in the manner in which they left 
> >the OS/2 maketplace.
> 
> What's so exemplary about leaving the OS/2 marketplace?

I said "in the manner in which they left".

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: p@awacs.dhs.org                                   13-Dec-99 12:21:22
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 10:24:21
Subj: Re: Dimsdale digest, volume 2451514

From: p@awacs.dhs.org (Pascal Haakmat)

tholenbot wrote:

>> > > > > > > Forging stdio again Aaron?  I wonder how Bluestreak.org would 
>> > > > > > > react 
>> > > > > > > to 
>> > > > > > > the information that you're posting forgery.
>> > > > > > 
>> > > > > > 
>> > > > > > I wonder how Louis Freeh would react to the information that 
>> > > > > > you're 
>> > > > > > jumping into discussions again, Chris.
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > Irrelevant, 
>> > > > 
>> > > > Why?
>> > > 
>> > > Comprehend context, Eric.
>> > 
>> > I do, Chris.  I see you didn't answer the question.
>> 
>> Incorrect.  More evidence of your lack of reading comprehension skills.
>
>See what I mean?

Don't you know, Eric?

-- 
CSMA posting style test
http://awacs.dhs.org/csmatest

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: jmalloy@borg.com                                  13-Dec-99 08:24:10
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 14:26:29
Subj: Re: Tholen digest, volume 24515263453.7889999999^-832907560375609

From: "Joe Malloy" <jmalloy@borg.com>

Today's Tholen digest:

[{Nah, just a complete waste of electrons!}]

Bye!


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: jmalloy@borg.com                                  13-Dec-99 08:24:12
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 14:26:29
Subj: Re: Tholen digest, volume 24515262345.5332^-4596848769890000098766

From: "Joe Malloy" <jmalloy@borg.com>

It's been said that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, but  in the
case of Tholen, it just highlights the idiocy of his language and its
construction.  Here's today's digest:

[Nope, not a thing to report!]

> 1> Tholen is becoming more like Bob Germer every day.  He can't tolerate
> 1> anyone who holds a different opinion than he does, as evidenced by his
> 1> responses to Curtis Bass and myself, so he makes sweeping, incorrect
> 1> generalizations about all of said person's postings and uses it as an
> 1> excuse to dismiss said person. Here's today's digest:

Yes, Marty, you're quite right!


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: don_wagner@my-deja.com                            13-Dec-99 13:21:21
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 14:26:29
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Don Wagner <don_wagner@my-deja.com>

In article <3853ff1a_4@news.cadvision.com>,
  "Steven C. Britton" <scb@scb-group.com> wrote:
> Don Wagner wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Cutler Hammer RULES!!!!!! :)
> > >
> > > Crappy Hammer?  It's almost as bad as Telemickeymouse.
> >
> > You mean TeleSquaredSchneider?
> >
> > Besides Cutler Hammer has way nicer jackets and a GORGEOUS
> > lady to answer the phone in Richmond.
>
> Big deal.  At ISA shows, some people hire Booth Babes to attract
> prospects...

But you can't top the jackets. HAH! And besides you're
just jealous.
>
> I'd rather have the superior product, thanks.

Give me a call, I'll sell you some.
>
> > Don't you wish YOU had the Advantage starter?
>
> Not when I can move the superior Sirius 3R, Furnas, and Siemens motors
> (which blow everyone out of the water).

Sorry, TECO is where it's at.

Furnas? Nah. junk

Don Wagner


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tech1@home.com.net                                13-Dec-99 13:34:15
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 14:26:29
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: "Tech1" <tech1@home.com.net>

You know who runs this country?....Bill Clinton who else....Canada is just
another puppet of the United states......argue if you like but its true.

Don Wagner <don_wagner@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:832rt3$3th$1@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <3853ff1a_4@news.cadvision.com>,
>   "Steven C. Britton" <scb@scb-group.com> wrote:
> > Don Wagner wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Cutler Hammer RULES!!!!!! :)
> > > >
> > > > Crappy Hammer?  It's almost as bad as Telemickeymouse.
> > >
> > > You mean TeleSquaredSchneider?
> > >
> > > Besides Cutler Hammer has way nicer jackets and a GORGEOUS
> > > lady to answer the phone in Richmond.
> >
> > Big deal.  At ISA shows, some people hire Booth Babes to attract
> > prospects...
>
> But you can't top the jackets. HAH! And besides you're
> just jealous.
> >
> > I'd rather have the superior product, thanks.
>
> Give me a call, I'll sell you some.
> >
> > > Don't you wish YOU had the Advantage starter?
> >
> > Not when I can move the superior Sirius 3R, Furnas, and Siemens motors
> > (which blow everyone out of the water).
>
> Sorry, TECO is where it's at.
>
> Furnas? Nah. junk
>
> Don Wagner
>
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: josco@ibm.net                                     13-Dec-99 06:52:17
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 14:26:29
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net>


"Steven C. Britton" wrote:

> Ed Letourneau wrote:
> >
> > >How about the UFCW harassing customers during the Safeway strike in 1997?
> > >How about the violence on the Calgary Herald picket line?
> > >How about the violence on CUPW picket lines?
> >
> > Need more details here big guy.
> >
> > Item 1. The reports I see is about asking customers to boycott Safeway,
> > and 4 or 5 workers being arrested for making threats to strike breakers --
> > that's real dangerous stuff up you have up there.
>
> Customers in Edmonton had to run a "gauntlet" of angry striking Safeway
> workers on their way out of the store, many being physically pushed and
> shoved as screaming lunatics got in their faces.
>
> I'd have fired the lot of them on the spot.

Oh yeah.  You're going grow up to be the CEO of Safeway.



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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: jenuths@homacjen.ab.ca                            13-Dec-99 15:00:19
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 14:26:29
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: jenuths@homacjen.ab.ca

In can.politics Joseph <josco@ibm.net> wrote:
> "Steven C. Britton" wrote:

>> Ed Letourneau wrote:
>> >
>> > >How about the UFCW harassing customers during the Safeway strike in
1997?
>> > >How about the violence on the Calgary Herald picket line?
>> > >How about the violence on CUPW picket lines?
>> >
>> > Need more details here big guy.
>> >
>> > Item 1. The reports I see is about asking customers to boycott Safeway,
>> > and 4 or 5 workers being arrested for making threats to strike breakers
--
>> > that's real dangerous stuff up you have up there.
>>
>> Customers in Edmonton had to run a "gauntlet" of angry striking Safeway
>> workers on their way out of the store, many being physically pushed and
>> shoved as screaming lunatics got in their faces.
>>
>> I'd have fired the lot of them on the spot.

> Oh yeah.  You're going grow up to be the CEO of Safeway.

Curiously, Safeway stock is down about 50% in the past year.

Maybe Britton is managing. :)


-- 
Best regards,

Stephen Jenuth
(jenuths@homacjen.ab.ca)

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           13-Dec-99 10:29:09
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 14:27:00
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <385486f9_4@news.cadvision.com>, on 12/12/99 at 10:40 PM,
   "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com> said:


> Of course, the fact that it is ILLEGAL to price a good below cost just
> simply proves how tyrranical and oppressive our governments really are:
> if someone wants to sell a widget below the cost of manufacture, it's
> their own stupidity.

It is illgal to sell a product below cost if the purpose of doing so is to
drive a competitor our of business. Otherwise it is perfectly legal.

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: Fam.Traeger@t-online.de                           13-Dec-99 16:29:15
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 14:27:00
Subj: Re: Windows 1.0 was running in 1983, Mac appeared in 1984 

From: Fam.Traeger@t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?=)

Roger <roger@.> wrote:

> reported until several years later.  Patterson wrote Q-DOS as a CP/M
> clone, to ease the porting of applications from that OS, and

Porting from which OS (CP/M?) to what?

Lars T.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: lucien@metrowerks.com                             13-Dec-99 15:30:07
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 14:27:00
Subj: Re: Navigator 4.7 is available!! OS/2 is behind again!!

From: lucien@metrowerks.com

In article <831r92$neb$1@news.hawaii.edu>,
  tholenantispam@hawaii.edu wrote:
> Lucien writes:
> >>> Here is the JDK sentence
> >>>
> >>> 1) "OS/2 Java 1.1.8 implements Java 1.2 functionality. Bummer,
> >>> bummer"
>
> >> Pay particular attention to the additional information provided by
the
> >> reference to Java 1.1.8, Lucien.
>
> > Uninformed response.
>
> Incorrect (see below for why); how ironic.
>
> > There is no grammatical quantifier in this sentence.
>
> There is a logical quantifier in that sentence.

...such that the ambiguity is resolved?

Explain, then, why both

"OS/2 Java 1.1.8 implements some Java 1.2 functionality."

and

"OS/2 Java 1.1.8 implements all Java 1.2 functionality."

are grammatical, semantically coherent sentences of English.

Lucien S.


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           13-Dec-99 10:35:23
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 14:27:00
Subj: Re: When will it be 100% done?

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <385497C2.9E1C91F8@stny.rr.com>, on 12/13/99 at 01:52 AM,
   Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> said:

> I noticed that you conveniently snipped the rest of the article exposing
> your idiotic attempt to cover up your prejudice.  No surprise there. 
> Here are some of the high points:

> > > > Bullshit. You are a liar about so many things,
> > > 
> > > Such as...?

See response below.

> Note:  no response.  Nothing to back up your lie.

Another lie. I did respond. I can't be held responsible if you cannot
read.

>  
> > > > I don't believe you use or are capable of using OS/2.
> > >
> > > Well Boob... check the message headers for one thing.  Then take a
> > > stroll over to http://emuos2.vintagegaming.com.  And when you're done
> > > wrenching your foot out of your mouth, then tell me I'm not "capable of
> > > using OS/2".

Answered in a previous posting.

> > 
> > Considering the total ignorance you display here

> What alleged ignorance, Boob?  I've noticed you failed to provide
> anything to back up your statement.  I'm not the one claiming that the
> opinion of Candians is worth less than garbage, nor that Arabs are
> terrorists who go around "blowing things up".  Nor did I claim that
> McCoy was a drunken Irishman (snicker), in spite of my many
> disagreements with him.

I did not claim that Canadians had no valid opinions. I claimed, which is
absolutely true, that those opinions in the context of the DOJ v MS suit
are garbage to the court because no Canadian has standing in the matter.
The opinions of citizens of the US and resident aliens are the only ones
with value. The opinion of all others is garbage.

> > I can easily conclude that someone else wrote the code you claim.

> And allowed me to plaster my name all over it, own and maintain a web
> page for it, and make official announcements about it?  Right Bob. 
> That's smart thinking.  That "makes quite a lot of sense" and is
> "logically consistent within itself" as someone else might say.

It's not without the realm of probability in my opinion that you stole the
code and the victim is financially unable to pursue you.

> > And only a fool would write game code for a business operating system.

> IBM pushed OS/2 Warp as "The Totally Cool Way to Run Your Computer". 
> Does this sound like a slogan for a business operating system to you?

I never saw such a claim. I never saw an ad so stating. Without verifiable
proof, this is another lie in my opinion.

> I suppose all of those DOS and Win 3.1 game developers were fools too,
> after all, computers were intended for business use.  Those damned fool
> millionares.

They were intended for four markets: Business, Education, Government, and
Home use. OS/2 was designed for the first three only. Games are for home
use, period.


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: rjf@yyycomasia.com                                13-Dec-99 16:27:13
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 14:27:00
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: rjf@yyycomasia.com (rj friedman)

On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 21:13:18, larso@commodore. (Lars P 
Ormberg) wrote:

îIn the case of anti-trust, I've been recognizing the invalidity OF THE LAW
îrepeatedly.

îMonopoly power requires a monopoly.  Microsoft isn't a monopoly.

îI will not lie and say that Microsoft is a monopoly.
îI will not lie and say that Microsoft can use monopoly power.


Hee, hee, hee. Keep it up "Lars" old boy - you have no idea 
the extent of pleasure it gives me to watch as you eat your 
Microsoft loving heart out.


________________________________________________________

[RJ]                 OS/2 - Live it, or live with it. 
rj friedman          Team ABW              
Taipei, Taiwan       rjf@yyycomasia.com 

To send email - remove the `yyy'
________________________________________________________

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: kitchin@dca.net                                   13-Dec-99 11:20:10
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 14:27:00
Subj: Re: OS/2 1.1

From: Bruce Kitchin <kitchin@dca.net>

If you get the disks from someone (I don't have mine anymore), there is
one possible problem.  OS/2 prior to version 1.3 was very hardward sensitive.
The IBM versions ran only on IBM computers or very close compatibles.
Mine were from HP since I had an HP computer.  So if you get them and
they give you trouble, you may want to try various computers to see if
there is one that is more compatible.



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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: sbritton@cadvision.com                            13-Dec-99 09:54:02
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 14:27:00
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com>

Stephen Untruth wrote:
>
> > Oh yeah.  You're going grow up to be the CEO of Safeway.
>
> Curiously, Safeway stock is down about 50% in the past year.
>
> Maybe Britton is managing. :)

Since the stock is down, I obviously do not have anything to do with
Safeway.  If I was in charge, the stock would have split four times and the
union would have been decertified.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
What have YOU done to bust a union today?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Work better: Work union-free.

Steven C. Britton
Calgary

www.cadvision.com/sbritton



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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: sbritton@cadvision.com                            13-Dec-99 09:55:17
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 14:27:00
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com>

Don Wagner wrote:
> >
> > Big deal.  At ISA shows, some people hire Booth Babes to attract
> > prospects...
>
> But you can't top the jackets. HAH! And besides you're
> just jealous.

Ya, okay.

> > Not when I can move the superior Sirius 3R, Furnas, and Siemens motors
> > (which blow everyone out of the water).
>
> Sorry, TECO is where it's at.
>
> Furnas? Nah. junk

Only one competitive product to Furnas pilot devices: Allen Bradley, and
Furnas blows them out of the water on price.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
What have YOU done to bust a union today?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Work better: Work union-free.

Steven C. Britton
Calgary

www.cadvision.com/sbritton



--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: sbritton@cadvision.com                            13-Dec-99 09:56:17
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 14:27:00
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com>

Bob Germer wrote:

> > Of course, the fact that it is ILLEGAL to price a good below cost just
> > simply proves how tyrranical and oppressive our governments really are:
> > if someone wants to sell a widget below the cost of manufacture, it's
> > their own stupidity.
>
> It is illgal to sell a product below cost if the purpose of doing so is to
> drive a competitor our of business. Otherwise it is perfectly legal.

Motivation is irrelevant.  It is impossible to prove.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
What have YOU done to bust a union today?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Work better: Work union-free.

Steven C. Britton
Calgary

www.cadvision.com/sbritton



--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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(1:109/42)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: aboritz@cybernex.net                              13-Dec-99 06:26:02
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 14:27:00
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: aboritz@cybernex.net (Alan Boritz)

In article
<o33IbyOQk5WV-pn2-dGmXdSNPI6fU@miharris.connectcorp.net.209.43.130.112>,
miharris@connectcorp.net wrote:
>On Sun, 12 Dec 1999 14:20:03, aboritz@cybernex.net (Alan Boritz) 
>wrote:
>
> 
>Quotedl>I'm pretty sure I got the newsreader for free too.
>Quotedl
>QuotedlOnly if you got your registration key in a warez newsgroup, I'm
afraid.  The
>Quotedlrest of us paid for it, and received no support assistance when it
wouldn't
>Quotedlwork.  Innoval never released a free registration code for that
product.
>
>You're WAY out of line here,... I got a FREE copy of the newsreader 
>(not warez).  It was free to those of us who purchased the GREEN 
>version of PRM v1.0.

You idiot, you paid for BOTH products.  "Free" in that context has a very
different meaning.

> .... then again,... that may have been long 
>before you came on board as an os/2'er!

Not likely.  It was a while before I experimented with PRM, but it was a
version before 2.00.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: bv@bigblue.no                                     13-Dec-99 17:41:16
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 17:04:10
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: bv@bigblue.no (Bj›rn Vermo)

On Thu, 9 Dec 1999 05:29:35, Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com> 
wrote:

> On <384ea7fe$1$yrgbherq$mr2ice@news.sover.net>, on 12/08/99 at 01:48 PM,
>    letoured@nospam.net said:
> 
> > Does the university there accept just anyone?
> 
> Evidently.

There is always the possibility that somebody behaves rationally and 
intelligently when they are admitted, and only turn eccentric 
afterwards.

It would be very nice for a mugger to identify those people - they 
would obviously agree to the perfect defence: "I did not force him to 
hand over his wallet. He had the free choice to get shot instead of 
handing it over, so he gave it to me of his own free will".
 

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: bv@bigblue.no                                     13-Dec-99 18:07:28
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 17:04:10
Subj: Re: Why can't Germer compute?

From: bv@bigblue.no (Bj›rn Vermo)

On Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:44:07, letoured@nospam.net wrote:

> jglatt@spamgone-borg.com (Jeff Glatt) said:
> 
> Read my paragraph again and pay attention. -- I said a tier-one ANY BRAND
> machine without windoze and you rant about IBM.
> 
It might seem to most people that your definition of "tier one" is 
more than a little odd if it does not include IBM. Most people would 
expect "tier one" to mean the best group of a certain product 
cathegory, and would reserve that distinction for the top-end products
of IBM, Compaq, HP, Fujitsu, Siemens, Dell and a very few smaller, 
specialized companies. This to distinguish them from "tier three" 
computers from cheap mail-order or chain stores, some made by the same
manufacturers as the tier one models (e.g. Compaq home computers), 
others by the likes of Packard Bell and other consumer-oriented 
brands, or second-tier equipment made by good integraters using good 
components and the top end of generic motherboards from the better 
board manufacturers or the lower end of the professional ranges from 
the top tier.

It is not difficult to get a first tier computer without an operating 
system, it is more like the default. We talk of from 10k USD and far, 
far up. In that price range, the customer is VERY right. It is also 
possible to a second tier system without Windows. The problem is that 
the big volume, consumer and small business oriented, third tier 
systems are generally unavailable with anything resembling a free 
choice, be it of OS, office suite or even in many places internet 
provider.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: cndbass@yahoo.com                                 12-Dec-99 22:35:10
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 17:04:10
Subj: Re: When will it be 100% done?

From: Curtis Bass <cndbass@yahoo.com>


Bob Germer wrote:
> 
> On <3852D25F.C2686D5C@stny.rr.com>, on 12/11/99 at 05:38 PM,
>    Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> said:

-- SNIP --

> > Poor Bob doesn't have a clue, does he?  I'm more of an OS/2 advocate
> > than he is.  [Hint for boob:  check my message headers, then search Deja
> > for articles in other os2 groups posted by me]
> 
> Bullshit. You are a liar about so many things, I don't believe you use or
> are capable of using OS/2.

Why not take his advice before exclaiming "bullshit . . . I don't
believe you" and thereby making yourself look completely foolish?  After
all, if you look at the header, it does, in fact, say "X-Newsreader:
MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v2.01 c01."  I cut and pasted it
myself!

-- snip --

> > How does one take:
> > "Since you are a Canuck, your opinoin is worth less than garbage."
> 
> You took it out of context as you well know. I was speaking of Canadian's
> opinions having any value whatsoever in our courts in general and in the
> MS case in particular. Something of no value whatsoever is garbage.

Why use such pejorative language, then?  One can state that a Canadian's
opinion has no value wrt an American court without being so rude about
it.

-- snip --


Curtis

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: jglatt@spamgone-borg.com                          13-Dec-99 18:25:18
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 17:04:10
Subj: Re: When will it be 100% done?

From: jglatt@spamgone-borg.com (Jeff Glatt)

>Bob Germer
>Considering the total ignorance you display here I can easily conclude
>that someone else wrote the code you claim

Considering the total ignorance you display whenever telling one of
your "anecdotes" about your "clients", for example, your factual
errors about Microsoft installation procedures, many of us have easily
concluded that you're a complete fake whose only "experience" consists
of recycling rumors and FUD that he has read on the internet

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: 1979j@usa.net                                     13-Dec-99 17:57:00
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 17:04:10
Subj: Re: OS/2 1.1

From: Nino <1979j@usa.net>


Nino ha scritto:

> Hello All,
>
> my name's Nino and I am a student at the 'La Sapienza' university in
> Rome.
> I am preparing a research on the history of PC for my next exam. OS/2
> have
> a huge importance for the IBM PC compatible platform, I'd like to quote
> it
> largely, but unfortunately I miss what maybe is the most important
> version: OS/2 1.1, the first operating system for PC with a GUI, the
> first OS/2 with Presentation Manager.
>
> I would like to write an original article on it and take some
> screenshots of OS/2 1.1 with my camera.
>
> If someone please can supply me that version (which is, I suppose, about
> 4 or 5 5.25 disks) I will be very grateful; I really want my teachers
> give OS/2 the importance and the respect that it deserves. Thanks in
> advance
>
> I am sorry for any off-topic generated but I really need your help.
>
> Best regards,
> Nino Solazzo
>
> P.S. Please, answer me only if you have the 1.1 version. I am not a
> collector so I am not interested in any other 1.x versions. Thanks
> again.

If someone is so generous to give me only the first, the installation
disk of OS/2 1.1 and the label names to the remaining disks It would be
really appreciated. Please help me, I haven't found a working OS/2 1.1 yet.
I need only the disk image of the install disk and the label names. If you
have it, please contact me at 1979j@usa.net

Thanks

Nino

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: jglatt@spamgone-borg.com                          13-Dec-99 18:28:20
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 17:04:10
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: jglatt@spamgone-borg.com (Jeff Glatt)

>Boob Germer
>students can be expelled for conduct detrimental to the good name of
>the University.

Which is why Boob flunked out of "The Little Candy Cane Nursery
School" for calling other children "assholes" because they bought
radio-controlled Furbie dolls that don't run on OS/2

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               13-Dec-99 13:38:25
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 17:04:10
Subj: Re: When will it be 100% done?

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Curtis Bass wrote:
> 
> Bob Germer wrote:
> >
> > On <3852D25F.C2686D5C@stny.rr.com>, on 12/11/99 at 05:38 PM,
> >    Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> said:
> 
> -- SNIP --
> 
> > > Poor Bob doesn't have a clue, does he?  I'm more of an OS/2 advocate
> > > than he is.  [Hint for boob:  check my message headers, then search Deja
> > > for articles in other os2 groups posted by me]
> >
> > Bullshit. You are a liar about so many things, I don't believe you use or
> > are capable of using OS/2.
> 
> Why not take his advice before exclaiming "bullshit . . . I don't
> believe you" and thereby making yourself look completely foolish?  After
> all, if you look at the header, it does, in fact, say "X-Newsreader:
> MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v2.01 c01."  I cut and pasted it
> myself!

Actually Curtis, that was Boob's.  Mine is: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (OS/2; U)

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: stuartf@datacom.co.nz                             14-Dec-99 07:47:25
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 17:04:10
Subj: Re: Jury scheduled to hear Caldera vs. Microsoft next January

From: "Stuart Fox" <stuartf@datacom.co.nz>

<Unix & Mac advocacy trimmed, no need for them to see the embarrassment that
is Boob Germer>

Boob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com> wrote in message
news:38548624$4$obot$mr2ice@news.pics.com...
> On <830pqv$rrf$1@newsource.ihug.co.nz>, on 12/13/99 at 07:32 AM,
>    "Stuart Fox" <stuartf@datacom.co.nz> said:
>
> > > Until you run the MS CD which DOES NOT COME THROUGH TECHNET on our
> > > clients' networks, you are unqualified to make the statements above.
Until
> > > you have tried to run the MS CD, not the one from Technet, on my
machine
> > > you are unqualified to make the above statement. Until you have run
the MS
> > > CD on my ThinkPad 390e with the version of Win 98 installed by IBM,
you
> > > are unqualified to make the above statement. --
>
> > I've run them both - and guess what Boob?  No intermediate reboots.
>
> Again you prove yourself a liar. You have not run them on my clients'
> networks and machines nor on mine.

And you prove yourself a liar on two counts Boob.

1.  The testimony of myself and other IT professionals who work in the
Microsoft arena is that IE doesn't need an intermediate reboot.  Maybe as
someone who specialises in OS/2, you find Microsoft technology too
complicated for you?
2. You told me I was killfiled.  You have repeatedly responded to my posts
since then.  Either you are more of a boob than you seem, or you find the
IBM technology too complicated?

Let's look at Boob's performance - he can't install IE5, and he can't work a
killfile.  I declare No Confidence in any of Boob's pronouncements.



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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: sbritton@cadvision.com                            13-Dec-99 12:19:10
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 17:04:11
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com>

Ed Letourneau wrote:
>
> >Motivation is irrelevant.  It is impossible to prove.
>
> And I guess MS is negotiating an anti-trust settlement because there is no
> evidence against them!

MS is negotiating an anti-trust settlement because they've realized that
there's no way they can win the case due to the tyrannical anti-business
laws in force.

In short, they're cutting their losses.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
What have YOU done to bust a union today?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Work better: Work union-free.

Steven C. Britton
Calgary

www.cadvision.com/sbritton



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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: gbritton@!britton.dhs.org                         13-Dec-99 19:42:17
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 17:04:11
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: "Gerry Britton" <gbritton@!britton.dhs.org>

On Mon, 13 Dec 1999 12:19:21 -0700, Steven C. Britton wrote:

>> And I guess MS is negotiating an anti-trust settlement because there is no
>> evidence against them!
>
>MS is negotiating an anti-trust settlement because they've realized that
>there's no way they can win the case due to the tyrannical anti-business
>laws in force.
>
>In short, they're cutting their losses.

Complete fantasy and utter nonsense. MS should & will be broken into
profitable little pieces, and Gates will be forever remembered as the last
major thief of the 20th century .



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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: larso@commodore.                                  13-Dec-99 19:53:09
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 17:04:11
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg)

As I stepped out onto the Stoop, I saw rj friedman write:
> On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 21:13:18, larso@commodore. (Lars P 
> Ormberg) wrote:

> îMonopoly power requires a monopoly.  Microsoft isn't a monopoly.
> 
> îI will not lie and say that Microsoft is a monopoly.
> îI will not lie and say that Microsoft can use monopoly power.
> 
> Hee, hee, hee. Keep it up "Lars" old boy

I'm sorry to hear you have the dreaded misuse of quotations disease.

-- 
Lars P. Ormberg     ICQ#:8827066
mailto:larso@ualberta.ca
The University of Lars:   http://www.ualberta.ca/~larso/

"The way you're bathed in light, reminds me of that night
God laid me down into your rose garden of trust and I was
swept away with nothin' left to say some helpless fool
yeah I was lost in a swoon of peace you're all I need to
find so when the time is right come to me sweetly, come
to me come to me..love will lead us, alright.  love will
lead us, she will lead us.  can you hear the dolphin's
cry?  see the road rise up to meet us its in the air we
breathe tonight love will lead us, she will lead us"
                            -Live, "The Dolphin's Cry"

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: none@nospam.org                                   13-Dec-99 20:53:15
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 17:04:11
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: J. Chapman <none@nospam.org>

In article <3854DE02.24ADDF0A@ibm.net>, josco@ibm.net says...
 > 
 > 
 > "Steven C. Britton" wrote:
 > 
 > > Ed Letourneau wrote:
 > > >
 > > > >How about the UFCW harassing customers during the Safeway strike in
1997?
 > > > >How about the violence on the Calgary Herald picket line?
 > > > >How about the violence on CUPW picket lines?
 > > >
 > > > Need more details here big guy.
 > > >
 > > > Item 1. The reports I see is about asking customers to boycott Safeway,
 > > > and 4 or 5 workers being arrested for making threats to strike breakers 
--
 > > > that's real dangerous stuff up you have up there.
 > >
 > > Customers in Edmonton had to run a "gauntlet" of angry striking Safeway
 > > workers on their way out of the store, many being physically pushed and
 > > shoved as screaming lunatics got in their faces.
 > >
 > > I'd have fired the lot of them on the spot.
 > 
 > Oh yeah.  You're going grow up to be the CEO of Safeway.
 
Well, it is interesting how when it comes to abortions the government
thinks it is totally unacceptable for anyone disagreeing with it to be
anywhere near the places they are done... yet when it comes to labor
unions they turn a blind eye to physical intimidation of people who
merely want to go somewhere they are fully entitled to go.


-- 
 
If I don't respond to a post it may mean that I haven't seen it,
that I don't think it merits a response or that the poster is in
my killfile. In any case silence should not be taken as assent.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: magnus@attnet.net                                 13-Dec-99 18:02:19
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 19:44:00
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Michael Magnus <magnus@attnet.net>


Gerry Britton wrote:

> >MS is negotiating an anti-trust settlement because they've realized that
> >there's no way they can win the case due to the tyrannical anti-business
> >laws in force.
> >
> >In short, they're cutting their losses.
> 
> Complete fantasy and utter nonsense. MS should & will be broken into
> profitable little pieces, and Gates will be forever remembered as the last
> major thief of the 20th century .

If this occurs, then Bill Gates will make out like a bandit. He would
probably triple his wealth because he would own a good deal of the
smaller M$ pieces. This is precisely what happened to Rockafeller when
Standard Oil was broken up 100 years ago.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: dboultr@spamfree.erols.com                        13-Dec-99 23:05:05
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 21:12:03
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: dboultr@spamfree.erols.com

On Mon, 13 Dec 1999 11:26:05, aboritz@cybernex.net (Alan Boritz) 
wrote:

> You idiot, you paid for BOTH products.  "Free" in that context has a very
> different meaning.

Gosh, Alan, I'm certainly impressed with your economic analysis.

Now, if we all chipped in and bought you a copy of Win98, would you 
just go away? 

Doug Boulter

To reply by e-mail, remove the obvious spam traps from the address

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From: donnelly@tampabay.rr.com                          13-Dec-99 23:34:18
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 21:12:03
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: donnelly@tampabay.rr.com (Buddy Donnelly)

On Mon, 13 Dec 1999 20:53:30, J. Chapman <none@nospam.org> wrote:

>  
> Well, it is interesting how when it comes to abortions the government
> thinks it is totally unacceptable for anyone disagreeing with it to be
> anywhere near the places they are done... 

Au contraire, nearly (?) everywhere the local government is slow to 
restrict the Right To Assemble and has only done so in specific cases 
where the "disagreers" have transgressed on the rights of others to 
travel in/out of such places of business. That the disagreers have 
fomented the mad ignorant hatred that has led to gunning down medical 
practitioners, or subjecting them and their families to 
middle-east-style terrorism, is probably the factor that forced the 
courts to act.


> yet when it comes to labor
> unions they turn a blind eye to physical intimidation of people who
> merely want to go somewhere they are fully entitled to go.

Au contraire, there has been far more (US) government intervention in 
the rights of labourers to make use of totally peaceful, traditional 
and widely-accepted collective bargaining techniques. 

Among other citations, anybody remember PATCO, the legitimate labour 
union that was virtually outlawed by the fiat of an American 
President, totally disregarding Federal Law? (That the same US 
President blithely (and probably happily) violated the War Powers 
provisions of US constitutional law, in multiple cases, to attack the 
soil and citizens of foreign countries, only shows how far the 
corporate government is willing to go to restrict those they view as 
natural competitors.)



>  
> If I don't respond to a post it may mean that I haven't seen it,
> that I don't think it merits a response or that the poster is in
> my killfile. In any case silence should not be taken as assent.

And if I *do* respond to a post it doesn't mean that I think it should
be taken as a serious citation of the true facts of US history.


Unless all of this is speaking about Canadian law and affairs, in 
which case I'll plead near ignorance and back out the door, 
apologetically bowing and scraping.

-- 

Good luck,

Buddy

Buddy Donnelly
donnelly@tampabay.rr.com


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: sbritton@cadvision.com                            13-Dec-99 16:44:27
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 21:12:03
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com>

Michael Magnus wrote:
>
> Gerry Britton wrote:
>
> > >MS is negotiating an anti-trust settlement because they've realized
that
> > >there's no way they can win the case due to the tyrannical
anti-business
> > >laws in force.
> > >
> > >In short, they're cutting their losses.
> >
> > Complete fantasy and utter nonsense. MS should & will be broken into
> > profitable little pieces, and Gates will be forever remembered as the
last
> > major thief of the 20th century .
>
> If this occurs, then Bill Gates will make out like a bandit. He would
> probably triple his wealth because he would own a good deal of the
> smaller M$ pieces. This is precisely what happened to Rockafeller when
> Standard Oil was broken up 100 years ago.

It's a sad state of affairs in the world when someone is called a theif and
a bandit for being good at marketing a product.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
What have YOU done to bust a union today?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Work better: Work union-free.

Steven C. Britton
Calgary

www.cadvision.com/sbritton



--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               13-Dec-99 19:00:10
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 21:12:03
Subj: Re: When will it be 100% done?

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

I noticed once again that you conveniently snipped the evidence against you
without even addressing it or having the courtesy to write "<snip>".  Not
surprising.  Here you are again.  No need to thank me.

> > > It is not an all-inclusive statement. It merely says, as I explained at 
> > > length which you choose to ignore to try to give your lies the veneer of 

> > > validity, I was differentiating between those who break the law because
of
> > > thier heritage from madmen like McVey, the Unabomber, etc.
> > 
> > Sorry Boob, but you made the original statement to Ali (aka Hobbyist) and
this
> > pathetic excuse does not fit into that discussion at all.  Here's the
original
> > context back.  Note the lack of discussion of breaking laws due to
heritage vs.
> > madmen:
> >  
> > BG] I am just short of my 60th birthday.
> > 
> > AM] How can you be that age and yet act like an asshole so much???!!! 
> > AM] The years should incur a level of maturity which puts you above the 
> > AM] sort of behaviour you display here on usenet.
> > AM] Tsk. Tsk.
> > AM] Yes, it is a personal attack. Just up your street BTW.
> > 
> > BG] Typical conduct of an Arab terrorist. You can't win a rational
argument 
> > BG] so you attempt to blow others up.
> > 
> > Sorry.  Your pathetic excuse cannot cover this one up.

Note:  *still* no response.  Sorry to embarass you again by exposing your
cover-up attempt.

Bob Germer wrote:
> 
> On <385497C2.9E1C91F8@stny.rr.com>, on 12/13/99 at 01:52 AM,
>    Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> said:
> 
> > I noticed that you conveniently snipped the rest of the article exposing
> > your idiotic attempt to cover up your prejudice.  No surprise there.
> > Here are some of the high points:
> 
> > > > > Bullshit. You are a liar about so many things,
> > > >
> > > > Such as...?
> 
> See response below.

The response below fails to point out any "bullshit" on my part.  It also
fails
to show me to be a liar about anything, let alone many things.  Interestingly
enough, the response below was also missing a significant piece of what I
wrote, which, ironically, points out one of your lies and "bullshit".

> > Note:  no response.  Nothing to back up your lie.
> 
> Another lie. I did respond. I can't be held responsible if you cannot
> read.

I can't read what isn't there, Boob.  Especially seeing as how you've been so
liberal with your clipboard which seems to loose a few things in the
translation.

> > > > > I don't believe you use or are capable of using OS/2.
> > > >
> > > > Well Boob... check the message headers for one thing.  Then take a
> > > > stroll over to http://emuos2.vintagegaming.com.  And when you're done
> > > > wrenching your foot out of your mouth, then tell me I'm not "capable
of
> > > > using OS/2".
> 
> Answered in a previous posting.

Inadequately and incorrectly.  My message headers continue to prove you wrong,
but don't let facts get in the way of your fantasy world.

> > > Considering the total ignorance you display here
> 
> > What alleged ignorance, Boob?  I've noticed you failed to provide
> > anything to back up your statement.  I'm not the one claiming that the
> > opinion of Candians is worth less than garbage, nor that Arabs are
> > terrorists who go around "blowing things up".  Nor did I claim that
> > McCoy was a drunken Irishman (snicker), in spite of my many
> > disagreements with him.
> 
> I did not claim that Canadians had no valid opinions.

Well Bob, let's go to the video tape:
"Since you are a Canuck, your opinoin is worth less than garbage."

> I claimed, which is absolutely true, that those opinions in the context 
> of the DOJ v MS suit are garbage to the court because no Canadian has 
> standing in the matter.  The opinions of citizens of the US and resident 
> aliens are the only ones with value.  The opinion of all others is garbage.

That is not how you worded your claim, nor is it correct, even reworded as you
have now.

> > > I can easily conclude that someone else wrote the code you claim.
> 
> > And allowed me to plaster my name all over it, own and maintain a web
> > page for it, and make official announcements about it?  Right Bob.
> > That's smart thinking.  That "makes quite a lot of sense" and is
> > "logically consistent within itself" as someone else might say.
> 
> It's not without the realm of probability in my opinion that you stole the
> code and the victim is financially unable to pursue you.

Actually it is, Boob.  It is impossible, given that the facts are easily
verifiable.  That is some fantasy world you've constructed though.  I suppose
I
duped the good folks at Netlabs too, and convinced them to put up a page for
me
when the project first started (http://www.netlabs.org/projects/mame.html). 
And I suppose I stole the source code to SEAL for OS/2 also and again duped
Netlabs into putting up a page for me
(http://www.netlabs.org/projects/seal.html).  Boy... those original authors
must be <pissed> at me.  Strange, however, that they seem absolutely silent
about it.

By all means, keep expanding your fantasy world Bob.  It's quite amusing. 
It's
also proving my point better than I ever could.  This is certainly not the
first fantasy world you've constructed and described in your postings.

> > > And only a fool would write game code for a business operating system.
> 
> > IBM pushed OS/2 Warp as "The Totally Cool Way to Run Your Computer".
> > Does this sound like a slogan for a business operating system to you?
> 
> I never saw such a claim. I never saw an ad so stating. Without verifiable
> proof, this is another lie in my opinion.

I believe it was on my Warp 3 Red Spine box.  I'll verify ASAP.  In the
meantime, I'm sure comp.os.os2.games would love to hear your opinions on their
newsgroup and interests.
 
> > I suppose all of those DOS and Win 3.1 game developers were fools too,
> > after all, computers were intended for business use.  Those damned fool
> > millionares.
> 
> They were intended for four markets: Business, Education, Government, and
> Home use. OS/2 was designed for the first three only. Games are for home
> use, period.

"I never saw such a claim. I never saw an ad so stating. Without verifiable
proof, this is another lie in my opinion."

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: fake@forgitaboutit.com                            14-Dec-99 01:47:01
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 03:29:05
Subj: Re: When will it be 100% done?

From: David H. McCoy <fake@forgitaboutit.com>

In article <38558894.C112A43D@stny.rr.com>, mamodeo@stny.rr.com says...
>> 
>> > IBM pushed OS/2 Warp as "The Totally Cool Way to Run Your Computer".
>> > Does this sound like a slogan for a business operating system to you?
>> 
>> I never saw such a claim. I never saw an ad so stating. Without verifiable
>> proof, this is another lie in my opinion.
>
>I believe it was on my Warp 3 Red Spine box.  I'll verify ASAP.  In the
>meantime, I'm sure comp.os.os2.games would love to hear your opinions on
their
>newsgroup and interests.
> 
>

Actually, it was the "Crash-protected, internet-connected, 32-bit totally cool 

way to run your computer".

Bigot Bob reminds me this other clown(misguided, but didn't appear bigoted at 
least) who said that OS/2 only had 3 versions.

OS/2 advocacy takes another step backwards.



-- 
---------------------------------------
David H. McCoy
dmccoy@EXTRACT_THIS_mnsinc.com
---------------------------------------

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: fake@forgitaboutit.com                            14-Dec-99 01:41:16
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 03:29:05
Subj: Re: When will it be 100% done?

From: David H. McCoy <fake@forgitaboutit.com>

In article <385497C2.9E1C91F8@stny.rr.com>, mamodeo@stny.rr.com says...
>
>> And only a fool would write game code for a business operating system.
>
>IBM pushed OS/2 Warp as "The Totally Cool Way to Run Your Computer".  Does
this
>sound like a slogan for a business operating system to you?
>
>I suppose all of those DOS and Win 3.1 game developers were fools too, after
>all, computers were intended for business use.  Those damned fool
millionares.
>
>Instead of dreaming up insults and slurs, how about you use that globe atop
>your neck to think about what you are going to write before you write it? 
That
>could go a long way toward keeping your foot out of your mouth in the future.
>

In addition, what exactly does Bob the Bigot think Dart and Diver was for? And 

what should those poor fools who make sure their games work under NT do?

It just goes to show, bigots are idiots which is why they are a dying breed.

-- 
---------------------------------------
David H. McCoy
dmccoy@EXTRACT_THIS_mnsinc.com
---------------------------------------

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: letoured@nospam.net                               13-Dec-99 20:39:21
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 03:29:05
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: letoured@nospam.net

Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com> said:

>Since the stock is down, I obviously do not have anything to do with
>Safeway.  If I was in charge, the stock would have split four times and
>the union would have been decertified.

Your delusions are those of a person who can't ever get to the top --
because you have to treat people intelligently to get work from them, and
you're not capable of that.



_____________
Ed Letourneau <letoured@sover.net>

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(1:109/42)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: letoured@nospam.net                               13-Dec-99 20:47:29
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 03:29:05
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: letoured@nospam.net

Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com> said:

>> >How about the UFCW harassing customers during the Safeway strike in 1997?
>> >How about the violence on the Calgary Herald picket line?
>> >How about the violence on CUPW picket lines?
>>
>> Need more details here big guy.
>>
>> Item 1. The reports I see is about asking customers to boycott Safeway,
>> and 4 or 5 workers being arrested for making threats to strike breakers --
>> that's real dangerous stuff up you have up there.

>Customers in Edmonton had to run a "gauntlet" of angry striking Safeway
>workers on their way out of the store, many being physically pushed and
>shoved as screaming lunatics got in their faces.

>I'd have fired the lot of them on the spot.

This is more bull from you. The news reports of this are not out there on
the net. 

>> Item 2.  Calgary Herald. According to what I see, the readership has
>> falled 45% because of public support for the union.

>Not this reader...
>In fact, I'm thinking of putting my subscription back to daily.

You didn't support the union, but you did stop reading -- yet you claim to
know what isn't out there in the news reports.... Looks like more BS from
here.

>> Didn't find the violence stuff in the news.
>Funny.  Workers have been arrested.

Give us the URLs.   I meant your a hotshit at an ISP. So go to it. Give us
the paths or post the stories to prove you're not full of BS. 


>> Item 3.  All I see on the violence is, well I'll quote a witness; "I guess
>> his fingers [the Bank Manager] got hurt on someone's windpipe."

>There's been many CUPW walkouts (most near Christmas -- go figure).

I guess the managers are morons to write contracts with dates that can
lead to problems at their highest sales period.  -- You would fit right
in.


>> Got any more examples of the big bad unions? Anything beyond Canada? Is
>> this your best "union goons and their rent-a-mob tactics" stuff?

>Check into the last Ontario election and what the union goons did to the
>Mike Harris campaign (he won, by the way).

Changing the subject?  You said the unions caused the violence. The news
talks of the managers getting violent -- so you change the subject because
you got caught again with your head up you know where.



_____________
Ed Letourneau <letoured@sover.net>

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: retsiemynnaht@spammoc.beoohaygon...               13-Dec-99 21:39:26
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 03:29:05
Subj: Re: question about OS/2's memory managment and ...

Message sender: retsiemynnaht@spammoc.beoohaygone.net

From: "Mike Ruskai" <retsiemynnaht@spammoc.beoohaygone.net>

On Mon, 13 Dec 1999 19:27:49 -0500 (CST), Trancser wrote:

>Does anyone know the details as far as how OS/2 loads programs into memory,
>and its memory managment all together? I mean, supposedly something was
>changed in the kernel when 2.99 came out that was very different from the
>previous versions of OS/2. 

The change in memory management between 2.1 and Warp (including the public
betas) was in paging.

Rather than discard pages from key system DLL's that were no longer in
use, and have to reload them from file the next time a program loaded
them, they remain in the swapper file.  This improves performance because
paging out of the swapper into memory takes less time than loading the
module.

All other DLL's are discarded normally when no longer in use by any
running programs.  


--
 - Mike

Remove 'spambegone.net' and reverse to send e-mail.


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         14-Dec-99 02:53:02
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 03:29:05
Subj: Re: Navigator 4.7 is available!! OS/2 is behind again!!

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Lucien writes:

>>>>> Here is the JDK sentence
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) "OS/2 Java 1.1.8 implements Java 1.2 functionality. Bummer,
>>>>> bummer"

>>>> Pay particular attention to the additional information provided by
>>>> the reference to Java 1.1.8, Lucien.

>>> Uninformed response.

>> Incorrect (see below for why); how ironic.

>>> There is no grammatical quantifier in this sentence.

>> There is a logical quantifier in that sentence.

> ....such that the ambiguity is resolved?

Yes.  Where have you been, Lucien?  I've been telling you how the
ambiguity is resolved for several weeks.  Didn't you ever bother to
read the articles to which you responded, or did you merely cut and
paste?

> Explain, then, why both
>
> "OS/2 Java 1.1.8 implements some Java 1.2 functionality."
>
> and
>
> "OS/2 Java 1.1.8 implements all Java 1.2 functionality."
>
> are grammatical, semantically coherent sentences of English.

The latter is not logical, Lucien, because if 1.1.8 implemented all
Java 1.2 functionality, then IBM should have called it 1.2.

The question now is, what will Lucien ignore to continue his
ridiculous argument?  So far he's ignored the definition of
"prevent", and even ignores it when referring to the situation
as the "costly mistakes" thread; now's he ignoring the illogic
of calling a Java 1.2 product "1.1.8".  Sort of like calling a
color television "black and white".

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: sbritton@cadvision.com                            13-Dec-99 20:03:14
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 03:29:05
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com>

Don Wagner wrote:

> > Only one competitive product to Furnas pilot devices: Allen Bradley, and
> > Furnas blows them out of the water on price.
>
> No problem moving C-H in this neck of the woods, but Ailing Badley
> is a quality product. You can't give Furnas Pilot devices away although
> the contactors have limited acceptance.

Funny... we can't hang on to it here.  When you see the comparison between
Furnas and A-B, and then the price of Furnas, people leap for it.

> How bout that changing the subject huh?

Strange, the way that happens...

But the point I made with A-B at the beginning still stands: if A-B signed
contracts with 100% of automation distributors, there would be nothing
unethical about it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
What have YOU done to bust a union today?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Work better: Work union-free.

Steven C. Britton
Calgary

www.cadvision.com/sbritton



--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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(1:109/42)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu                13-Dec-99 22:46:24
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 03:29:05
Subj: Re: Dimsdale digest, volume 2451514

From: tholenbot <tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu>

In article 
<822D721AD94F6611.E56B97796450BE07.E85F52623CDBD81B@lp.airnews.net>, 
TholenBotPro <tholenbot_pro@excite.com> wrote:

> In article <tholenbot-052401.22585012121999@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>, 
> tholenbot <tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu> wrote:
> 
> > In article 
> > <EBF2A3D3CFB0D7A1.D74B45A71B29B5BB.C7284BD91A4CE212@lp.airnews.net>, 
> > TholenBotPro <tholenbot_pro@excite.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > In article 
> > > <tholenbot-1F68B3.21095912121999@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>, 
> > > tholenbot <tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > In article 
> > > > <943A24F40D7BA8AC.6A3ADFE94027DC00.F8D3FE80172DAD46@lp.airnews.net>,
> > > >  
> > > > TholenBotPro <tholenbot_pro@excite.com> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > In article 
> > > > > <tholenbot-752D72.08450907121999@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>, 
> > > > > tholenbot <tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu> wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > In article 
> > > > > > <CABEA840AC12DBA0.43AE1E9722902FBD.F2C306C752FDB5D3@lp.airnews.n
> > > > > > et
> > > > > > >,
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > TholenBotPro� <tholenbot_pro@excite.com> wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > Forging stdio again Aaron?  I wonder how 
> > > > > > > > > > > Bluestreak.org 
> > > > > > > > > > > would 
> > > > > > > > > > > react 
> > > > > > > > > > > to 
> > > > > > > > > > > the information that you're posting forgery.
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > I wonder how Louis Freeh would react to the information 
> > > > > > > > > > that 
> > > > > > > > > > you're 
> > > > > > > > > > jumping into discussions again, Chris.
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > Irrelevant, 
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Why?
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Comprehend context, Eric.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I do, Chris.  I see you didn't answer the question.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Incorrect.  More evidence of your lack of reading comprehension 
> > > > > skills.
> > > > 
> > > > See what I mean?
> > > 
> > > No, given that you predictably butchered the context. 
> > 
> > Illogical, given that I did not butcher your failure to answer the 
> > question.
> 
> Incorrect.

Typical unsubstantiated and erroneous claim.

> > > Do you find this 
> > > "entertaining", Eric?
> > 
> > Irrelevant.
> 
> On the contrary, given that the context is your entertainment.

Incorrect.

-- 
I do not 'approve' phrases.
-Dave Tholen

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: jbergman@ixc.ixc.net                              13-Dec-99 21:49:10
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 03:29:05
Subj: Re: question about OS/2's memory managment and ...

From: "Trancser" <jbergman@ixc.ixc.net>

>
>The change in memory management between 2.1 and Warp (including the public
>betas) was in paging.
>
>Rather than discard pages from key system DLL's that were no longer in
>use, and have to reload them from file the next time a program loaded
>them, they remain in the swapper file.  This improves performance because
>paging out of the swapper into memory takes less time than loading the
>module.

So ...all base system DLL's constantly remain in the swap file (their
pre-loaded upon bootup)? But non-system specific dll's (like third party
programs; i.e. netscape?) are re-loaded direct from the original
executables/dll's, NOT from swapper file? Wonder what OS/2'd be like, if
instead it used the MMAP process to load executables (like linux supposedly
does). 

I wish IBM would improve OS/2's disk caching, so that programs dont always
have to be reloaded from hd or swap file, but rather direct from RAM (again
simular to linux). I think OS/2 would be even faster with such an approach!
 
>
>All other DLL's are discarded normally when no longer in use by any
>running programs.  
>
>
>--
> - Mike




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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: jbergman@ixc.ixc.net                              13-Dec-99 21:56:18
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 03:29:05
Subj: Re: Odin handling 16-bit (win3.1) code as well?

From: "Trancser" <jbergman@ixc.ixc.net>

>
>Everything is possible, but Odin team lacks manpower for this. The
>focus is on 32-bit applications. I agree it would be nice to have
>at least Win32s compatibility (and some Win32s applications can
>be loaded and do run as they use the same EXE format as Win32c or
>Win32 apps), if only for making installation programs happy.
>
>In any case, if someone is willing to try to hack this in (either
>by porting Win16 from Wine or using Win-OS/2 DLLs included in OS/2)
>I'm sure he (or she) would be welcomed in the team. Right now, current
>team members don't have enough time for this (there are even some parts
>of Odin32 API that have no active developers, that this is surely
>more important and urgent than Win16 compatibility).
>
>Nenad
>

I've been curious ever since hearing that a "team" is working on the Odin
project, and that "manpower" is lacking on this project, but how many people
are actually working on the Odin project?




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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: roger@.                                           14-Dec-99 04:10:25
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 03:29:05
Subj: Re: Windows 1.0 was running in 1983, Mac appeared in 1984 

From: Roger <roger@.>

On Mon, 13 Dec 1999 16:29:31 +0100, someone claiming to be Lars Tr„ger
wrote:

>Roger <roger@.> wrote:

>> reported until several years later.  Patterson wrote Q-DOS as a CP/M
>> clone, to ease the porting of applications from that OS, and

>Porting from which OS (CP/M?) to what?

CP/M to Q-DOS.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: sbritton@cadvision.com                            13-Dec-99 22:26:26
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 03:29:06
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com>

Ed Letourneau wrote:
>
> >Since the stock is down, I obviously do not have anything to do with
> >Safeway.  If I was in charge, the stock would have split four times and
> >the union would have been decertified.
>
> Your delusions are those of a person who can't ever get to the top --
> because you have to treat people intelligently to get work from them, and
> you're not capable of that.

You'll never know: first because you don't know me, and secondly, because I
would never hire the likes of you anyway.

I want people willing to do an honest day's work for an honest day's pay;
and with your support of unionism, you obviously can't handle that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
What have YOU done to bust a union today?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Work better: Work union-free.

Steven C. Britton
Calgary

www.cadvision.com/sbritton



--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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(1:109/42)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: sbritton@cadvision.com                            13-Dec-99 22:31:28
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 03:29:06
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com>

Ed Letourneau wrote:
>
> >Customers in Edmonton had to run a "gauntlet" of angry striking Safeway
> >workers on their way out of the store, many being physically pushed and
> >shoved as screaming lunatics got in their faces.
>
> >I'd have fired the lot of them on the spot.
>
> This is more bull from you. The news reports of this are not out there on
> the net.

It happened.  Not everything gets posted on the net; but then again, I'm
sure you are aware that everything you read on the net is true, right?

> >> Item 2.  Calgary Herald. According to what I see, the readership has
> >> falled 45% because of public support for the union.
>
> >Not this reader...
> >In fact, I'm thinking of putting my subscription back to daily.
>
> You didn't support the union, but you did stop reading -- yet you claim to
> know what isn't out there in the news reports.... Looks like more BS from
> here.

I haven't stopped reading the Herald.  I receive it on Fridays and Sundays.
I also receive the National Post daily.

I listen to the local talk-radio station all day long, and I watch the news
every night.

> >> Didn't find the violence stuff in the news.
> >Funny.  Workers have been arrested.
>
> Give us the URLs.   I meant your a hotshit at an ISP. So go to it. Give us
> the paths or post the stories to prove you're not full of BS.

I'm secure enough to know that what I'm saying is true.

> >> Item 3.  All I see on the violence is, well I'll quote a witness; "I
guess
> >> his fingers [the Bank Manager] got hurt on someone's windpipe."
>
> >There's been many CUPW walkouts (most near Christmas -- go figure).
>
> I guess the managers are morons to write contracts with dates that can
> lead to problems at their highest sales period.  -- You would fit right
> in.

I guess the CUPW members know when their whining and walking off the job
will inconvenience the public the most.

> >> Got any more examples of the big bad unions? Anything beyond Canada? Is
> >> this your best "union goons and their rent-a-mob tactics" stuff?
>
> >Check into the last Ontario election and what the union goons did to the
> >Mike Harris campaign (he won, by the way).
>
> Changing the subject?  You said the unions caused the violence.

They did.  Research what happened in the last Ontario election.  Unions
constantly dogged the Conservative campaign, protesting, demonstrating,
heckling, harassing, destroying signs, and intimidating campaign workers.

But I guess that anything not posted on the 'net isn't true in your
perverted, twisted, leftist world, is it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
What have YOU done to bust a union today?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Work better: Work union-free.

Steven C. Britton
Calgary

www.cadvision.com/sbritton



--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
 * Origin: Usenet: CADVision Development Corporation (http://www.cad
(1:109/42)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com               13-Dec-99 22:03:20
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 03:29:06
Subj: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: "Kim Cheung" <kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com>

Serenity Systems markets a Managed Client(r) product which provides
significant benefits to business users. We selected OS/2 as our
desktop client for many reasons and one is the broad range of
application support provided.

However, we continue to receive requests to support Win32
applications. Often this request is in addition to the requirement to
run Presentation Manager or WorkPlace Shell applications, which are
frequently Line of Business Applications.

After reviewing the product solutions available, we determined that
the best response to this requirement would be a hardware
modification to the workstation, enabling the system to support a
host operating system and guest operating system. Release 1 of the
product is anticipated to support an OS/2 host and a Windows guest.
The OS/2 support includes WorkSpace on Demand and OS/2 V4 (Merlin)
with support for a Managed Client, run either as a diskless RPL
client or as a traditional "fat" client.

We have put an overview of this project on our web site
(http://www.Serenity-Systems.com/), with an associated questionnaire
which will help us through our product planning. Accessing the
document requires that you have a valid log-on for the site. You can
request a log on from Info@Serenity-Systems.com. Once you log on to
the site, click on the Project Concorde image and, if it is
appropriate, complete the questionnaire.




--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
 * Origin: Usenet: TouchVoice Corporation (1:109/42)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: miharris@connectcorp.net                          14-Dec-99 06:45:08
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 03:29:06
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: miharris@connectcorp.net

On Mon, 13 Dec 1999 11:26:05, aboritz@cybernex.net (Alan Boritz) 
wrote:
 
QuotedlYou idiot, you paid for BOTH products.  "Free" in that context has a
very
Quotedldifferent meaning.

Hmmm, let me get this right,.... if I purchase a product for X dollars
and the company says that if I make said purchase BEFORE Y date they 
would give me Z product,... but if I purchased AFTER Y date then I 
would have to pay ($$$$) for Z product.  I think most ppl would agree 
with my interpretation of "free"  I'm sure you'd take a car dealer up 
on THAT offer if it were made to you,... but then again since you're 
the "smarter" one, you'd probably say naaah,  let the "idot" purchase 
it, since .....("Free" in that context has a very different meaning.) 
to you! ;^)
 

                        _\\|//_    Pssst!
                       (` o-o ') /
        ---------ooO-(_)-Ooo------------

The Box said, "Requires Windows95 or better."
I use better, much better thank you...
                                         
Warped with OS/2 4.0 at FP 8 and Java 1.1.7A
_______________________________________
M   i   k   e   "D a B u l l"     H   a   r   r   i   s       

_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/  
Undernet
#OS/2: Chanop
 _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/  

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenbot_pro@excite.com                          13-Dec-99 22:54:09
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 03:29:06
Subj: Re: Dimsdale digest, volume 2451514

From: TholenBotPro <tholenbot_pro@excite.com>

In article <tholenbot-4F9D5D.22464813121999@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>, 
tholenbot <tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu> wrote:

> In article 
> <822D721AD94F6611.E56B97796450BE07.E85F52623CDBD81B@lp.airnews.net>, 
> TholenBotPro <tholenbot_pro@excite.com> wrote:
> 
> > In article <tholenbot-052401.22585012121999@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>, 
> > tholenbot <tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu> wrote:
> > 
> > > In article 
> > > <EBF2A3D3CFB0D7A1.D74B45A71B29B5BB.C7284BD91A4CE212@lp.airnews.net>, 
> > > TholenBotPro <tholenbot_pro@excite.com> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > In article 
> > > > <tholenbot-1F68B3.21095912121999@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>, 
> > > > tholenbot <tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > In article 
> > > > > <943A24F40D7BA8AC.6A3ADFE94027DC00.F8D3FE80172DAD46@lp.airnews.net
> > > > > >,
> > > > >  
> > > > > TholenBotPro <tholenbot_pro@excite.com> wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > In article 
> > > > > > <tholenbot-752D72.08450907121999@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>, 
> > > > > > tholenbot <tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu> wrote:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > > In article 
> > > > > > > <CABEA840AC12DBA0.43AE1E9722902FBD.F2C306C752FDB5D3@lp.airnews
> > > > > > > .n
> > > > > > > et
> > > > > > > >,
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > TholenBotPro� <tholenbot_pro@excite.com> wrote:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > Forging stdio again Aaron?  I wonder how 
> > > > > > > > > > > > Bluestreak.org 
> > > > > > > > > > > > would 
> > > > > > > > > > > > react 
> > > > > > > > > > > > to 
> > > > > > > > > > > > the information that you're posting forgery.
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > I wonder how Louis Freeh would react to the 
> > > > > > > > > > > information 
> > > > > > > > > > > that 
> > > > > > > > > > > you're 
> > > > > > > > > > > jumping into discussions again, Chris.
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > Irrelevant, 
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > Why?
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Comprehend context, Eric.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > I do, Chris.  I see you didn't answer the question.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Incorrect.  More evidence of your lack of reading comprehension 
> > > > > > skills.
> > > > > 
> > > > > See what I mean?
> > > > 
> > > > No, given that you predictably butchered the context. 
> > > 
> > > Illogical, given that I did not butcher your failure to answer the 
> > > question.
> > 
> > Incorrect.
> 
> Typical unsubstantiated and erroneous claim.

Evidence, please.

> 
> > > > Do you find this 
> > > > "entertaining", Eric?
> > > 
> > > Irrelevant.
> > 
> > On the contrary, given that the context is your entertainment.
> 
> Incorrect.

On what basis do you make this claim?

-- 
"You're erroneously presuming that I'm being pedantic."
          -- Dave Tholen

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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(1:109/42)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: letoured@nospam.net                               13-Dec-99 23:42:07
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 11:41:16
Subj: Re: When will it be 100% done?

From: letoured@nospam.net

David H. McCoy <fake@forgitaboutit.com> said:


>OS/2 advocacy takes another step backwards.

McCoy you asshole it takes a step backwards everytime you show up.

_____________
Ed Letourneau <letoured@sover.net>

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
 * Origin: Usenet: bCandid - Powering the world's discussions - http
(1:109/42)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: larso@commodore.                                  14-Dec-99 10:06:00
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 11:41:16
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg)

As I stepped out onto the Stoop, I saw Michael Magnus write:
> Gerry Britton wrote:
> 
> > >MS is negotiating an anti-trust settlement because they've realized that
> > >there's no way they can win the case due to the tyrannical anti-business
> > >laws in force.
> > >
> > >In short, they're cutting their losses.
> > 
> > Complete fantasy and utter nonsense. MS should & will be broken into
> > profitable little pieces

Should we take parts of your property and give them away to others?  If not
with you, why with Gates?

> If this occurs, then Bill Gates will make out like a bandit.

If the U.S. government bored down and said it was going to take something
you owned and 'take it over' and 'break it apart' would you not take the
money and run?  I sure would, as would anybody with the brains to know that
better to set it on fire than let the government touch it.

-- 
Lars P. Ormberg     ICQ#:8827066
mailto:larso@ualberta.ca
The University of Lars:   http://www.ualberta.ca/~larso/

"The way you're bathed in light, reminds me of that night
God laid me down into your rose garden of trust and I was
swept away with nothin' left to say some helpless fool
yeah I was lost in a swoon of peace you're all I need to
find so when the time is right come to me sweetly, come
to me come to me..love will lead us, alright.  love will
lead us, she will lead us.  can you hear the dolphin's
cry?  see the road rise up to meet us its in the air we
breathe tonight love will lead us, she will lead us"
                            -Live, "The Dolphin's Cry"

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: larso@commodore.                                  14-Dec-99 10:08:17
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 11:41:16
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg)

As I stepped out onto the Stoop, I saw Bob Germer write:
>    "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com> said:

> > Only a fascist would try to harm another because they have a different
> > opinion.
> 
> Society sets limits upon individual freedom within carefully defined laws
> to protect the minority. That Ormberg has the right to print (broad
> definition) his assinine opinions is absolute SO LONG AS THOSE RANTINGS DO
> NOT VIOLATE THE RULES OF THE ORGANIZATION HE CLAIMS TO REPRESENT.

Are you slow enough to require a disclaimer on every person's opinion to
inform you of who they do and do not represent with them?

> Were I a facist, I would investigate you thoroughly and do exactly that.
> If you refuse to accept that I am not a facist, I may be forced to become
> one in your case.

Well, that's evidence of rationality if _I_ ever heard it.

-- 
Lars P. Ormberg     ICQ#:8827066
mailto:larso@ualberta.ca
The University of Lars:   http://www.ualberta.ca/~larso/

"The way you're bathed in light, reminds me of that night
God laid me down into your rose garden of trust and I was
swept away with nothin' left to say some helpless fool
yeah I was lost in a swoon of peace you're all I need to
find so when the time is right come to me sweetly, come
to me come to me..love will lead us, alright.  love will
lead us, she will lead us.  can you hear the dolphin's
cry?  see the road rise up to meet us its in the air we
breathe tonight love will lead us, she will lead us"
                            -Live, "The Dolphin's Cry"

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: larso@commodore.                                  14-Dec-99 10:34:24
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 11:41:16
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg)

As I stepped out onto the Stoop, I saw Wolf Kirchmeir write:
> On 8 Dec 1999 20:04:54 GMT, Lars P Ormberg wrote:
> 
> =>By operating their own business, they were able to do this.
> =>
> =>It is illegal for a company to charge more than a competitor.
> =>It is illegal for a company to charge less than a competitor.
> =>It is illegal for a company to charge the same as a competitor.
> =>
> =>So yes, by entering into business Microsoft was able to "restrain trade".
> =>All they had to do was sell a product.  Things like writing a contract
just
> =>sealed the case against their "horrendous" practises.
> 
> Bullshit.
> 
> What's illeagl is to nobbnle the competition by making contracts with OEMs
> and/or resellers that limit resellers' ability to offer the full range of
> available product to their customers.

The issue lies far deeper than that.  As we've seen before, your own twisted
belief on how "property rights" should exist, what is an "acceptible"
business practise, and what is an "acceptible" government practise in
response, not to mention your own bizarre beliefs on how a free economy
operates is the source of the problem.

You refer to the illegality of making a contract if one of the parties in
the contract is successful.  However, that aspect of the law is just as
horrific as the aspect stating that any price a product is sold at is
illegal against if the seller is successful.  How successful one must be to
be a 'monopoly' is a task left up to the legal equivalent of sorcery.

> If Microsoft retailed their product directly to consumers rather than via
> intermediaries, there would be no problem, ethical or legal. It's because
> they interfered in the flow of competitors' product to potential buyers

The distributors are the ones that, withing their own right, 'interefered in
the flow'.  Microsoft requested it, but the final decision is where it
should be...the individual distributors.  If they don't make the choice MS
wants them to make, MS may discover they have to pay for the desirable
choice.  Truely a win-win-win for all.

> they are in shit. As they should be. What they did was immoral,
> unethical,definitely not politically correct, and against even Libertarian
> principles.

Your inability to recognize the key Libertarian principles makes it hard for
me to declare you a reliable arbitor of any specific applications of these
principles.

-- 
Lars P. Ormberg     ICQ#:8827066
mailto:larso@ualberta.ca
The University of Lars:   http://www.ualberta.ca/~larso/

"The way you're bathed in light, reminds me of that night
God laid me down into your rose garden of trust and I was
swept away with nothin' left to say some helpless fool
yeah I was lost in a swoon of peace you're all I need to
find so when the time is right come to me sweetly, come
to me come to me..love will lead us, alright.  love will
lead us, she will lead us.  can you hear the dolphin's
cry?  see the road rise up to meet us its in the air we
breathe tonight love will lead us, she will lead us"
                            -Live, "The Dolphin's Cry"

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
 * Origin: Usenet: PowerSurfr - High Speed Internet (1:109/42)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: rcrane@octa4.net.au                               14-Dec-99 10:45:17
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 11:41:16
Subj: Re: Judge Jackson Rules MacOS, Linux Not Commecially Viable!

From: rcrane@octa4.net.au (Richard A Crane)

On Fri, 10 Dec 1999 16:08:22, Bob Germer 
<bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com> wrote:

> The latter is my
> third favorite place on earth after the United States and Scotland.
> Actually, it's more like 2 and 2a really.
> 
So good to see Scotland in favour as number 1 clearly!:)
Richard A Crane
Barrister & Solicitor
slightly altered email (anti-spamming) rcrane AT 
octa4.net.au 
OR rcrane AT attglobal.net

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: rcrane@octa4.net.au                               14-Dec-99 10:45:19
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 11:41:16
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: rcrane@octa4.net.au (Richard A Crane)

On Sun, 12 Dec 1999 14:42:18, aboritz@cybernex.net (Alan 
Boritz) wrote:

> In article <82tugi$rlo$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, innoval@ibm.net wrote:
> >In article <zterrarrkvfarg.fmk8te0.pminews@news.exis.net>,
> >  "Michael K Greene" <mgreene@hotbot.com> wrote:
> >> On Fri, 10 Dec 1999 17:32:00 -0800, Tim Martin wrote:
> >> Any other company would get a "great!!!", but let's look at who you
> >> are talking about - Innoval????
> >
> >Okay. Let's get some facts straight before this goes to far off topic.
>  
> Fine.  Try answering these questions:
>  
> How many Postroad News licenses did you sell after announcing that you
> discontinued support for the product?
> 
As one who was pissed off with Innoval when they dropped the
Newreader, I actually thought that they had improved their 
act - the announcement about JSM and Postroad Mailer made me
willing to even consider a product of theirs again.
PS I'm still happy using the Postroad mailer that I brought 
at the same time a the Abortive Postroad Newreader (long 
after I've forgotten the cost of it).
Richard A Crane
Barrister & Solicitor
slightly altered email (anti-spamming) rcrane AT 
octa4.net.au 
OR rcrane AT attglobal.net

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: rcrane@octa4.net.au                               14-Dec-99 10:45:17
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 11:41:16
Subj: OS/2 has Superior newsreaders was Re: Who runs this country?

From: rcrane@octa4.net.au (Richard A Crane)

On Sun, 12 Dec 1999 20:04:19, 
jack.troughton@nospam.videotron.ca (Jack Troughton) wrote:

> On Sun, 12 Dec 1999 03:40:58, larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg) wrote:
> 
> êAs I stepped out onto the Stoop, I saw Forrest Gehrke write:
> ê> Lars P Ormberg wrote:
> Û
> ê> > Oh, Canada has this lunacy too.  Even more powerful than the antitrust
laws
> ê> > in the U.S.  Propane companies are unable to merge for "the public
good",
> ê> > and the law explicitly states that a lack of evidence is no hindrance
on
> ê> > successful prosecution.
> ê> 
> ê> Thank you for finally responding. I was sure the Canadian
> ê> government would not subscribe to the lunacy of your
> ê> point of view, though they do emulate it very well
> ê> for the medical discipline.
> Û
> êIn Health Care, Canada runs a monopoly.  A _real_ monopoly.
> Û
> êTry to get Health Care outside the government company, you are sent to
jail.
> êTry to provide Health Care outside the government, you are sent to jail.
> Û
> êCompare that with when you try to sell an operating system competing with
> êMicrosoft...and you don't go to jail.
> 
> Here, let's try this one on for size. Going to jail is a bagatelle for
> sissies. It can't REALLY be a monopoly unless the penalty is summary 
> execution.  Therefore, the health system is not a monopoly.
> 
> This is the level at which you are arguing. It's not very successful.
> 
> ê> > > Please look into it and report back what that law has
> ê> > > to say about predatory pricing.
> ê> > 
> ê> > Oh, you mean the laws stating that any business practise is illegal?
> ê> > 
> ê> Of course: that's what antitrust laws usually do.
> Û
> êOh, joy.
> Û
> êYou don't find _anything_ wrong with that?
> Û
> 
> Let's see, Capone used to kill his competitors. That was a business 
> practice. It's also illegal. You can't use any business practice you 
> want, you are only allowed the business practices permissable under 
> the law.
> 
> So, I personally don't find anything wrong with that.
> 
> You really should take a course in basic logic sometime. You need the 
> help.
> 
> Once again, someone has added comp.os.os2.misc to the thread. This is 
> extremely rude, but is not really that much of a surprise to me, 
> considering some of the people in this thread. I have removed it from 
> the headers.
> 
> Jack Troughton   ICQ:7494149
> http://jakesplace.dhs.org
> jack.troughton at videotron.ca
> jake at jakesplace.dhs.org
> MontrÚal PQ Canada
> 
I may be wrong but it does not seem to be the OS/2 
users/advocates that add all the extra newsgroups back in to
these postings.
So can we conclude that OS/2 newsreaders are superior to 
those MS ones because the MS people do this?
Richard A Crane
Barrister & Solicitor
slightly altered email (anti-spamming) rcrane AT 
octa4.net.au 
OR rcrane AT attglobal.net

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         14-Dec-99 10:51:08
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 11:41:16
Subj: Re: Haakmat digest, volume 2451527

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Here's today Haakmat digest:

1> I want to share my love for you with the world.

And you think you can do that in this newsgroup?

1> I just feel so connected to you.

What you feel is irrelevant.

1> See? I knew you were going to say that.

On what basis do you make that claim?

1> Our hearts are one, Dave.

Illogical.

1> I'm afraid I can only show you in private.

Let me know when you intend to stop by for a visit.

1> You silly!

On what basis do you make that claim?

1> And that.

Non sequitur.

1> And that.

Non sequitur.

1> And that.

Non sequitur.

1> All that, and brains too.

Non sequitur.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: jmalloy@borg.com                                  14-Dec-99 07:53:04
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 11:41:17
Subj: Re: Tholen digest, volume 2451527.496^-5832349999999999999999999

From: "Joe Malloy" <jmalloy@borg.com>

 Here's today Tholen digest:

[Beyond being 'non sequitur,' there's nothing new to report.]

You're welcome!


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           14-Dec-99 08:02:22
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 11:41:17
Subj: Re: When will it be 100% done?

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <38553D3B.4AABEBEE@stny.rr.com>, on 12/13/99 at 01:38 PM,
   Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> said:

> Actually Curtis, that was Boob's.  Mine is: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (OS/2; U)

Another of Marty's stupid lies. And he wants us to believe he wrote the
software he claims as his!

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           14-Dec-99 08:05:00
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 11:41:17
Subj: Re: When will it be 100% done?

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <385493A8.E3471BE2@yahoo.com>, on 12/12/99 at 10:35 PM,
   Curtis Bass <cndbass@yahoo.com> said:

> > > How does one take:
> > > "Since you are a Canuck, your opinoin is worth less than garbage."
> > 
> > You took it out of context as you well know. I was speaking of Canadian's
> > opinions having any value whatsoever in our courts in general and in the
> > MS case in particular. Something of no value whatsoever is garbage.

> Why use such pejorative language, then?  One can state that a Canadian's
> opinion has no value wrt an American court without being so rude about
> it.

When the government of Canada and/or the Province of British Columbia
and/or the people of Vancouver force their National Hockey League
franchise to change its name from Canucks, maybe you would have a point.

So, where is the perjorative language? It can't be the Canuck. Therefore,
it must be the reference to garbage.

Well, then I'd go check the FOF and the testimony. Some of the evidence
introduced, namely certain memos, was indeed retrieved from the garbage at
MicroSoft. Therefore, it had more standing than the opinions of Canucks.

What is rude about a simple statement of fact? How I choose to use the
language in my writings is mine. If you don't like it, then don't read it.

For your information Political Correctness is not a law. It is an attempt
by inferior beings unable to compete in the world of words to stifle those
who can.

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           14-Dec-99 08:12:20
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 14:35:14
Subj: Re: Jury scheduled to hear Caldera vs. Microsoft next January

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <cs254.1885$ds3.35437@news1.alsv1.occa.home.com>, on 12/13/99 at 08:51
AM,
   "Brent Davies" <brentdaviesNOSPAM@home.com> said:

> |
> | In the case of my ThinkPad 390e and my PII 400 console, I make changes to
> | the default CMOS setup to accomodate the greater capabilities of the
> | various operating systems installed thereon. Perhaps this confuses the
> | technically inferior MS product. In the case of the client machines on a
> | Novell Network, whoever installed Windows 98 may not have done it
> | correctly causing the behavior I've described, particularly since the
> | NIC's were not PnP in those workstations for the most part. Immaterial. I
> | saw what I saw. I can duplicate it repeatedly by merely formatting the C
> | partition and restore it to immediately before using the CD.

> Once again this entire pile of crap you've just spewed makes no
> difference to the installation of an application within the operating
> system, so long as the app doesn't need to use the hardware that the CMOS
changes > (ie: pcAnywhere needing to know where your COM ports are installed).

When it comes to my ThinkPad 390e, Model 2626-90U, I had to update the
bios in order to install Warp. A simple search of the IBM Device Driver
Matrix will show that I had to do this. I had to change several things,
among them the access to the com ports, the pcmcia slot, and video. On my
console, I have told CMOS that the OS installed is not Pnp aware since I
use non-standard interrupts for my com port, have disabled PnP reporting
in my NIC, etc. On my console, I do not have networking installed since it
exists on the machine only to betatest software for the visually
disadvantaged, software which does not run on networked machines.

> I run an IBM ThinkPad 390e 2626 on my desk.  It is my primary
> workstation.  I have installed Win98, NT 4 Workstation, and now W2K on
> it.  I have performed the IE5 installation on it as well (when I
> installed Win98 and NT Workstation) and no intermediate reboots.  Are you
trying
> to tell us that changing COM ports or video BIOS shadowing settings
> within the CMOS can affect the installation of a program that only uses
> the network interface?

Perhaps the fact that my ThinkPad has a Celeron processor has something to
do with it. I don't know because I have never tried one with a Pentium II
processor.

> You are delusional and you're attempting to inflict your delusions upon
> us.  I find that offensive.

What I find offensive is your blanket statements when you have not
experienced what I have experienced. Just because it doesn't happen to
you, doesn't mean it doesn't happen to others. WIndoze is NOT universally
utile on all hardware.


--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           14-Dec-99 08:28:11
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 14:35:14
Subj: Re: Jury scheduled to hear Caldera vs. Microsoft next January

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <xm254.1884$ds3.34902@news1.alsv1.occa.home.com>, on 12/13/99 at 08:45
AM,
   "Brent Davies" <brentdaviesNOSPAM@home.com> said:

> And to answer your next whine, I have performed IE4 and IE5 installation
> on Win95(a)(b)(osr2), Win98, NT 4 Server and Workstation.  I have NEVER
> had to perform these intermediate reboots that you claim to be required
> to do.

Ah, but have you ever tried to apply the Y2K updates to a machine WITHOUT
IE installed at all or one from which it was removed? You see, it was
removed from the clients' machines and never installed on my console since
I used Release 2 of Win98 which allows one not to install IE. It. along
with the cab files, was removed from my TP.

> Being older than Time doesn't make you more qualified than us to speak
> on this subject.

No does your not having tried on the hardware in question qualify you to
say I am wrong.

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: jimf@frostbytes.com                               14-Dec-99 08:33:24
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 14:35:14
Subj: Re: do you have OS/2 1.1?

From: Jim Frost <jimf@frostbytes.com>

Nino wrote:
> But OS/2 1.1 was maybe the most important OS/2
> version ever : it's most important feature was PM, Presentation Manager,
> fast
> and reliable, that we still use today when running Warp.

Fast and reliable?  Not that 1st version of PM!  It took them another two
tries to stabilize it.

> OS/2 1.1 is
> thus the first operating system for PC with a GUI,

Not even close.  GEM existed by then, as did Windows 2, and there were about
half a dozen PC UNIXen with X11 support by then (I used three of them).  So
not only did the PC have OSs with GUIs, it even had them with fully
distributed GUIs -- something OS/2 can't claim even today.

Not that OS/2 wasn't important.  It surely was.  It was a boondoggle for half
of the really established PC companies at the time, including IBM and Lotus. 
While people went off and chased OS/2 Microsoft kept building Windows things
and eventually shoved it all down the PC vendors' throats and companies with
much better products lost their hold of their respective markets to Microsoft.

jim

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From: lucien@metrowerks.com                             14-Dec-99 14:00:14
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 14:35:14
Subj: Re: Navigator 4.7 is available!! OS/2 is behind again!!

From: lucien@metrowerks.com

In article <834beh$b7n$1@news.hawaii.edu>,
  tholenantispam@hawaii.edu wrote:
> Lucien writes:
>
> >>>>> Here is the JDK sentence
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 1) "OS/2 Java 1.1.8 implements Java 1.2 functionality. Bummer,
> >>>>> bummer"
>
> >>>> Pay particular attention to the additional information provided
by
> >>>> the reference to Java 1.1.8, Lucien.
>
> >>> Uninformed response.
>
> >> Incorrect (see below for why); how ironic.
>
> >>> There is no grammatical quantifier in this sentence.
>
> >> There is a logical quantifier in that sentence.
>
> > ....such that the ambiguity is resolved?
>
> Yes.

Then one of the two sentences below should be ungrammatical. Yet, this
is not the case.

Explain why both are grammatical English sentences.

> > Explain, then, why both
> >
> > "OS/2 Java 1.1.8 implements some Java 1.2 functionality."
> >
> > and
> >
> > "OS/2 Java 1.1.8 implements all Java 1.2 functionality."
> >
> > are grammatical, semantically coherent sentences of English.
>
> The latter is not logical, Lucien, because if 1.1.8 implemented all
> Java 1.2 functionality, then IBM should have called it 1.2.

Wrong. You're confusing truth value and grammaticality - Both are
grammatical and coherent sentences of English (despite the truth value
difference).

Explain why.

> The question now is, what will Lucien ignore to continue his
> ridiculous argument?

The reader will note Dave's continued reliance upon irrelevancies, a
preferred tool of the ineffective advocate.

Lucien S.


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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From: josco@ibm.net                                     14-Dec-99 06:30:12
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 14:35:14
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net>


"Steven C. Britton" wrote:

> Michael Magnus wrote:
> >
>
> > If this occurs, then Bill Gates will make out like a bandit. He would
> > probably triple his wealth because he would own a good deal of the
> > smaller M$ pieces. This is precisely what happened to Rockafeller when
> > Standard Oil was broken up 100 years ago.
>
> It's a sad state of affairs in the world when someone is called a theif and
> a bandit for being good at marketing a product.

Even if these 100+ year old laws are unfair, it's a fool who cannot work
around
them.  Alas, MS has become the poster child for the malcontents.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: josco@ibm.net                                     14-Dec-99 06:43:03
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 14:35:14
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net>


"Steven C. Britton" wrote:

> Ed Letourneau wrote:
> >
> > >Since the stock is down, I obviously do not have anything to do with
> > >Safeway.  If I was in charge, the stock would have split four times and
> > >the union would have been decertified.
> >
> > Your delusions are those of a person who can't ever get to the top --
> > because you have to treat people intelligently to get work from them, and
> > you're not capable of that.
>
> You'll never know: first because you don't know me, and secondly, because I
> would never hire the likes of you anyway.
>
> I want people willing to do an honest day's work for an honest day's pay;
> and with your support of unionism, you obviously can't handle that.

--
http://www.sjmercury.com/svtech/news/breaking/merc/docs/attrac121499.htm
"Talent grab: Desperate companies shower workers with wealth"

Indeed, today's job applicants are like sports free agents plying their skills
to the highest bidders, asking for everything from signing bonuses and
severance
packages to stock options and unusual perks. Even college students are feeling
emboldened, winning signing bonuses and grilling recruiters about the
employees'
``work-life balance.''
--



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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: donnelly@tampabay.rr.com                          14-Dec-99 15:20:26
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 14:35:15
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: donnelly@tampabay.rr.com (Buddy Donnelly)

On Tue, 14 Dec 1999 11:30:25, Joseph <josco@ibm.net> wrote:
> "Steven C. Britton" wrote:
> 
> > It's a sad state of affairs in the world when someone is called a theif
and
> > a bandit for being good at marketing a product.
> 
> Even if these 100+ year old laws are unfair, it's a fool who cannot work
around
> them.  Alas, MS has become the poster child for the malcontents.

And someday I want to meet, or at least find out all about, the 
marketing geniuses who conceived of, and succeeded at, deriving $5/hit
Crack Cocaine from $100/gm powdered blow. 

Talk about being brilliant about marketing a product, not even to 
mention "working around" the laws. Makes BG's criminality look like 
small beer, and that takes some doing.

-- 

Good luck,

Buddy

Buddy Donnelly
donnelly@tampabay.rr.com


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: siberREMOVETHIS@sympatico.ca                      14-Dec-99 16:25:17
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 14:35:15
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: siberREMOVETHIS@sympatico.ca (E. Barry Bruyea)

On Tue, 14 Dec 1999 06:30:25 -0500, Joseph <josco@ibm.net> wrote:

>
>
>"Steven C. Britton" wrote:
>
>> Michael Magnus wrote:
>> >
>>
>> > If this occurs, then Bill Gates will make out like a bandit. He would
>> > probably triple his wealth because he would own a good deal of the
>> > smaller M$ pieces. This is precisely what happened to Rockafeller when
>> > Standard Oil was broken up 100 years ago.
>>
>> It's a sad state of affairs in the world when someone is called a theif and
>> a bandit for being good at marketing a product.
>
>Even if these 100+ year old laws are unfair, it's a fool who cannot work
around
>them.  Alas, MS has become the poster child for the malcontents.


And to show that in many ways the Sherman Anti-Trust act was a paper
tiger, Rockefeller, one way or the other, continued to 'control' all
of the various components of Standard Oil.  But, it sure looked good
to the general public, but was meaningless in the end.
>

EBB

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From: glend@nospam.direct.ca                            14-Dec-99 09:13:06
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 14:35:15
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Glenn Davies <glend@nospam.direct.ca>

On Tue, 14 Dec 1999 16:25:35 GMT, siberREMOVETHIS@sympatico.ca (E.
Barry Bruyea) wrote:

>On Tue, 14 Dec 1999 06:30:25 -0500, Joseph <josco@ibm.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>"Steven C. Britton" wrote:
>>
>>> Michael Magnus wrote:
>>> >
>>>
>>> > If this occurs, then Bill Gates will make out like a bandit. He would
>>> > probably triple his wealth because he would own a good deal of the
>>> > smaller M$ pieces. This is precisely what happened to Rockafeller when
>>> > Standard Oil was broken up 100 years ago.
>>>
>>> It's a sad state of affairs in the world when someone is called a theif
and
>>> a bandit for being good at marketing a product.
>>
>>Even if these 100+ year old laws are unfair, it's a fool who cannot work
around
>>them.  Alas, MS has become the poster child for the malcontents.
>
>
>And to show that in many ways the Sherman Anti-Trust act was a paper
>tiger, Rockefeller, one way or the other, continued to 'control' all
>of the various components of Standard Oil.  But, it sure looked good
>to the general public, but was meaningless in the end.
>>

If the goal was to relieve Rockefeller from control of Standard Oil's
assets than that might be correct but if the goal to was to open
competition in different fields then that conclusion isn't
supportable. 

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu                14-Dec-99 12:46:09
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 16:42:03
Subj: Re: Dimsdale digest, volume 2451514

From: tholenbot <tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu>

In article 
<D8B8F3D8D85CAC5D.869B37E61A13C666.7AA0B7602A326B11@lp.airnews.net>, 
TholenBotPro <tholenbot_pro@excite.com> wrote:

> In article <tholenbot-4F9D5D.22464813121999@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>, 
> tholenbot <tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu> wrote:
> 
> > In article 
> > <822D721AD94F6611.E56B97796450BE07.E85F52623CDBD81B@lp.airnews.net>, 
> > TholenBotPro <tholenbot_pro@excite.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > In article 
> > > <tholenbot-052401.22585012121999@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>, 
> > > tholenbot <tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > In article 
> > > > <EBF2A3D3CFB0D7A1.D74B45A71B29B5BB.C7284BD91A4CE212@lp.airnews.net>,
> > > >  
> > > > TholenBotPro <tholenbot_pro@excite.com> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > In article 
> > > > > <tholenbot-1F68B3.21095912121999@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>, 
> > > > > tholenbot <tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu> wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > In article 
> > > > > > <943A24F40D7BA8AC.6A3ADFE94027DC00.F8D3FE80172DAD46@lp.airnews.n
> > > > > > et
> > > > > > >,
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > TholenBotPro <tholenbot_pro@excite.com> wrote:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > > In article 
> > > > > > > <tholenbot-752D72.08450907121999@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>, 
> > > > > > > tholenbot <tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu> wrote:
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > In article 
> > > > > > > > <CABEA840AC12DBA0.43AE1E9722902FBD.F2C306C752FDB5D3@lp.airne
> > > > > > > > ws
> > > > > > > > .n
> > > > > > > > et
> > > > > > > > >,
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > TholenBotPro� <tholenbot_pro@excite.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Forging stdio again Aaron?  I wonder how 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Bluestreak.org 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > would 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > react 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > to 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the information that you're posting forgery.
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > I wonder how Louis Freeh would react to the 
> > > > > > > > > > > > information 
> > > > > > > > > > > > that 
> > > > > > > > > > > > you're 
> > > > > > > > > > > > jumping into discussions again, Chris.
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > Irrelevant, 
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > Why?
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > Comprehend context, Eric.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > I do, Chris.  I see you didn't answer the question.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Incorrect.  More evidence of your lack of reading 
> > > > > > > comprehension 
> > > > > > > skills.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > See what I mean?
> > > > > 
> > > > > No, given that you predictably butchered the context. 
> > > > 
> > > > Illogical, given that I did not butcher your failure to answer the 
> > > > question.
> > > 
> > > Incorrect.
> > 
> > Typical unsubstantiated and erroneous claim.
> 
> Evidence, please.

See above.

> > 
> > > > > Do you find this 
> > > > > "entertaining", Eric?
> > > > 
> > > > Irrelevant.
> > > 
> > > On the contrary, given that the context is your entertainment.
> > 
> > Incorrect.
> 
> On what basis do you make this claim?

The basis is your failure to answer the question, not my entertainment.

-- 
I do not 'approve' phrases.
-Dave Tholen

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: letoured@nospam.net                               14-Dec-99 11:57:09
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 16:42:03
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: letoured@nospam.net

Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com> said:

>> Your delusions are those of a person who can't ever get to the top --
>> because you have to treat people intelligently to get work from them, and
>> you're not capable of that.

>You'll never know: first because you don't know me, and secondly, because
>I would never hire the likes of you anyway.
>I want people willing to do an honest day's work for an honest day's pay;
>and with your support of unionism, you obviously can't handle that.

Your first error is the assumption that I would want to work for an
asshole.  Your second error is assuming that all your contradictory
utterances have passed unnoticed.

-- I especially liked the one about how your workers would never want to
unionize because you would treat them so well, and then hours later in
another message you said that if someone is starving the only remedy
should be handouts from passers-by and charity.

I do wish you would do some _real work and give us the URLs to document
your claims. 

_____________
Ed Letourneau <letoured@sover.net>

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: letoured@nospam.net                               14-Dec-99 11:50:10
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 16:42:03
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: letoured@nospam.net

Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com> said:

>> >Customers in Edmonton had to run a "gauntlet" of angry striking Safeway
>> >workers on their way out of the store, many being physically pushed and
>> >shoved as screaming lunatics got in their faces.
>> >I'd have fired the lot of them on the spot.
>> This is more bull from you. The news reports of this are not out there on
>> the net.
>It happened.  Not everything gets posted on the net; but then again, I'm
>sure you are aware that everything you read on the net is true, right?

Like your reply here? Now you're telling us that the news media in Canada
must also be lying and led by thugs, since there isn't anything to back up
your claims.


>> >> Item 2.  Calgary Herald. According to what I see, the readership has
>> >> falled 45% because of public support for the union.
>> >Not this reader...
>> >In fact, I'm thinking of putting my subscription back to daily.
>> >> Didn't find the violence stuff in the news.
>> >Funny.  Workers have been arrested.
>> Give us the URLs.   I meant your a hotshit at an ISP. So go to it. Give us
>> the paths or post the stories to prove you're not full of BS.
>I'm secure enough to know that what I'm saying is true.

Ah, Yes. I'm not surprised. You're  the wanabe CEO who works for an ISP
and claims this and that about unions, but who can't deliver one URL with
information to prove the claims.  I do hope you learn this isn't
impressive thinking by you.


>> >> Item 3.  All I see on the violence is, well I'll quote a witness; "I
>guess
>> >> his fingers [the Bank Manager] got hurt on someone's windpipe."
>> >There's been many CUPW walkouts (most near Christmas -- go figure).
>> I guess the managers are morons to write contracts with dates that can
>> lead to problems at their highest sales period.  -- You would fit right
>> in.

>I guess the CUPW members know when their whining and walking off the job
>will inconvenience the public the most.

Do you understand anything about collective bargaining?  How about the
asses in management who signed a contract that allowed this during their
busy season?


>They did.  Research what happened in the last Ontario election.  Unions
>constantly dogged the Conservative campaign, protesting, demonstrating,
>heckling, harassing, destroying signs, and intimidating campaign workers.

>But I guess that anything not posted on the 'net isn't true in your
>perverted, twisted, leftist world, is it?

A political campaign and the rights of free people have been violated
(according to you), and you end by telling us that its someone elses fault
that it didn't make it into the history pages!   Someone with real CEO
material on their shoulders would step up to the challenge and show us
something more then whining and sniveling.



_____________
Ed Letourneau <letoured@sover.net>

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenbot_pro@excite.com                          14-Dec-99 10:11:14
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 16:42:03
Subj: Re: Dimsdale digest, volume 2451514

From: TholenBotPro <tholenbot_pro@excite.com>

In article <tholenbot-DD6356.12461814121999@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>, 
tholenbot <tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu> wrote:

> In article 
> <D8B8F3D8D85CAC5D.869B37E61A13C666.7AA0B7602A326B11@lp.airnews.net>, 
> TholenBotPro <tholenbot_pro@excite.com> wrote:
> 
> > In article <tholenbot-4F9D5D.22464813121999@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>, 
> > tholenbot <tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu> wrote:
> > 
> > > In article 
> > > <822D721AD94F6611.E56B97796450BE07.E85F52623CDBD81B@lp.airnews.net>, 
> > > TholenBotPro <tholenbot_pro@excite.com> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > In article 
> > > > <tholenbot-052401.22585012121999@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>, 
> > > > tholenbot <tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > In article 
> > > > > <EBF2A3D3CFB0D7A1.D74B45A71B29B5BB.C7284BD91A4CE212@lp.airnews.net
> > > > > >,
> > > > >  
> > > > > TholenBotPro <tholenbot_pro@excite.com> wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > In article 
> > > > > > <tholenbot-1F68B3.21095912121999@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>, 
> > > > > > tholenbot <tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu> wrote:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > > In article 
> > > > > > > <943A24F40D7BA8AC.6A3ADFE94027DC00.F8D3FE80172DAD46@lp.airnews
> > > > > > > .n
> > > > > > > et
> > > > > > > >,
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > TholenBotPro <tholenbot_pro@excite.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > In article 
> > > > > > > > <tholenbot-752D72.08450907121999@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>,
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > tholenbot <tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu> wrote:
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > In article 
> > > > > > > > > <CABEA840AC12DBA0.43AE1E9722902FBD.F2C306C752FDB5D3@lp.air
> > > > > > > > > ne
> > > > > > > > > ws
> > > > > > > > > .n
> > > > > > > > > et
> > > > > > > > > >,
> > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > TholenBotPro� <tholenbot_pro@excite.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Forging stdio again Aaron?  I wonder how 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bluestreak.org 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > would 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > react 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > to 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the information that you're posting forgery.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I wonder how Louis Freeh would react to the 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > information 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > that 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > you're 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > jumping into discussions again, Chris.
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > Irrelevant, 
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > Why?
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > Comprehend context, Eric.
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > I do, Chris.  I see you didn't answer the question.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Incorrect.  More evidence of your lack of reading 
> > > > > > > > comprehension 
> > > > > > > > skills.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > See what I mean?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > No, given that you predictably butchered the context. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Illogical, given that I did not butcher your failure to answer 
> > > > > the 
> > > > > question.
> > > > 
> > > > Incorrect.
> > > 
> > > Typical unsubstantiated and erroneous claim.
> > 
> > Evidence, please.
> 
> See above.

Non sequitur.

> > > > > > Do you find this 
> > > > > > "entertaining", Eric?
> > > > > 
> > > > > Irrelevant.
> > > > 
> > > > On the contrary, given that the context is your entertainment.
> > > 
> > > Incorrect.
> > 
> > On what basis do you make this claim?
> 
> The basis is your failure to answer the question, not my entertainment.

Incorrect and illogical, as you predictably deleted my answer to the 
question for your own entertainment purposes.  How typical.

-- 
"You're erroneously presuming that I'm being pedantic."
          -- Dave Tholen

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: sbritton@cadvision.com                            14-Dec-99 13:11:02
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 19:59:12
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com>

Joseph wrote:
> >
> > I want people willing to do an honest day's work for an honest day's
pay;
> > and with your support of unionism, you obviously can't handle that.
>
> Indeed, today's job applicants are like sports free agents plying their
skills
> to the highest bidders, asking for everything from signing bonuses and
severance
> packages to stock options and unusual perks. Even college students are
feeling
> emboldened, winning signing bonuses and grilling recruiters about the
employees'
> ``work-life balance.''

Welcome to the real world.

That's what happens when there's lots of jobs and few people to fill them.
Companies have to make it worth the applicant's while to take the job.

When there's lots of people and few jobs, applicants have to make it worth
the company's while to take them.

That's what reality is all about.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
What have YOU done to bust a union today?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Work better: Work union-free.

Steven C. Britton
Calgary

www.cadvision.com/sbritton



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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: donnelly@tampabay.rr.com                          14-Dec-99 19:18:03
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 19:59:12
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: donnelly@tampabay.rr.com (Buddy Donnelly)

On Tue, 14 Dec 1999 16:50:21, letoured@nospam.net wrote:

snip
> Someone with real CEO
> material on their shoulders would step up to the challenge and show us
> something more then whining and sniveling.

Yes, but I still can't view the taped deposition of that one CEO 
without immediately thinking the words, "whining" and "sniveling."

-- 

Good luck,

Buddy

Buddy Donnelly
donnelly@tampabay.rr.com


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: sbritton@cadvision.com                            14-Dec-99 13:14:27
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 19:59:12
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com>

Bob Germer wrote:
>
> > MS is negotiating an anti-trust settlement because they've realized that
> > there's no way they can win the case due to the tyrannical anti-business
> > laws in force.
>
> > In short, they're cutting their losses.
>
> Thank you for finally realizing that your argument is with the laws of (to
> you) a foreign country. You obviously now realize that M$ is guilty of
> breaking the law and its actions are illegal.

I never said that Microsoft wasn't breaking the law.  I said that the laws
were wrong, and I said that Microsoft had done nothing wrong.

When the laws are tyrannical, and their victims realize that they can't do
anything about them because the system is so jealous of their success that
they're going to find against them anyway, the best course of action is to
cut one's losses as best one can.

If I were Bill, I'd retire; take my money, and move to the Cayman Islands
and live out the rest of my life in tax-free comfort; raising my middle
finger to the collective lunacy of the jealous left wing.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
What have YOU done to bust a union today?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Work better: Work union-free.

Steven C. Britton
Calgary

www.cadvision.com/sbritton



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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: sbritton@cadvision.com                            14-Dec-99 13:21:06
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 19:59:12
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com>

Ed Letourneau foamed:

> >It happened.  Not everything gets posted on the net; but then again, I'm
> >sure you are aware that everything you read on the net is true, right?
>
> Like your reply here? Now you're telling us that the news media in Canada
> must also be lying and led by thugs, since there isn't anything to back up
> your claims.

The events during the Safeway strike were reported on 630 CHED.  I heard the
report myself.

> >I'm secure enough to know that what I'm saying is true.

> Ah, Yes. I'm not surprised. You're  the wanabe CEO who works for an ISP
> and claims this and that about unions, but who can't deliver one URL with
> information to prove the claims.  I do hope you learn this isn't
> impressive thinking by you.

1.  I don't work for an ISP.
2.  I _am_ a CEO
3.  I don't _have_ to deliver any URLs.  The information is readily
available to those smart enough to find it.
4.  You're an idiot.

> >I guess the CUPW members know when their whining and walking off the job
> >will inconvenience the public the most.
>
> Do you understand anything about collective bargaining?

Yes:  It's lunacy.  You don't pay people based on collectiveness.  You pay
them based on merit.

> How about the asses in management who signed a contract that allowed this
during their
> busy season?

What about them?  They're beaurocrats.  Canada Post is a Crown Corporation.

 >But I guess that anything not posted on the 'net isn't true in your
> >perverted, twisted, leftist world, is it?
>
> A political campaign and the rights of free people have been violated
> (according to you), and you end by telling us that its someone elses fault
> that it didn't make it into the history pages!

You obviously can't read newspapers.  The Ontario Election was a massive
union goon battleground.

> Someone with real CEO material on their shoulders would step up to the
challenge and show us
> something more then whining and sniveling.

Someone with half a brain cell in their head would be able to research the
material and see that it's true.

The campaign was in 1998.  The Ontario Newspapers were the Toronto Star
(pro-union, by the way), Hamilton Spectator, Toronto Sun, Globe and Mail,
Ottawa Citizen.

Read up.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
What have YOU done to bust a union today?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Work better: Work union-free.

Steven C. Britton
Calgary

www.cadvision.com/sbritton



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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: sbritton@cadvision.com                            14-Dec-99 13:23:01
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 19:59:12
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com>

Ed Letourneau wrote:
>
> Your first error is the assumption that I would want to work for an
> asshole.

Nobody is forcing you to.

If you don't like your boss, quit.

> Your second error is assuming that all your contradictory utterances have
passed unnoticed.

I haven't said anything contradictory.

> -- I especially liked the one about how your workers would never want to
> unionize because you would treat them so well, and then hours later in
> another message you said that if someone is starving the only remedy
> should be handouts from passers-by and charity.

There's nothing contradictory in that.  Only an idiot would even try to tie
those two together.

> I do wish you would do some _real work and give us the URLs to document
> your claims.

I do _real_ work:  I'm not in a union.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
What have YOU done to bust a union today?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Work better: Work union-free.

Steven C. Britton
Calgary

www.cadvision.com/sbritton



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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: malstrom@wilde.oit.umass.edu                      14-Dec-99 15:32:20
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 19:59:12
Subj: Re: Odin handling 16-bit (win3.1) code as well?

From: Jason <malstrom@wilde.oit.umass.edu>

Trancser <jbergman@ixc.ixc.net> wrote:

: I've been curious ever since hearing that a "team" is working on the Odin
: project, and that "manpower" is lacking on this project, but how many people
: are actually working on the Odin project?

Actually the Odin project in comprised of several teams.  For a detailed 
discription of each team and who's on them, check out the Odin Teams 
webpage at:

http://www.netlabs.org/odin/ProjectTeams.phtml

-Jason

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: siberREMOVETHIS@sympatico.ca                      14-Dec-99 21:32:08
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 19:59:12
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: siberREMOVETHIS@sympatico.ca (E. Barry Bruyea)

On Tue, 14 Dec 1999 09:13:13 -0800, Glenn Davies
<glend@nospam.direct.ca> wrote:

>On Tue, 14 Dec 1999 16:25:35 GMT, siberREMOVETHIS@sympatico.ca (E.
>Barry Bruyea) wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 14 Dec 1999 06:30:25 -0500, Joseph <josco@ibm.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>"Steven C. Britton" wrote:
>>>
>>>> Michael Magnus wrote:
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> > If this occurs, then Bill Gates will make out like a bandit. He would
>>>> > probably triple his wealth because he would own a good deal of the
>>>> > smaller M$ pieces. This is precisely what happened to Rockafeller when
>>>> > Standard Oil was broken up 100 years ago.
>>>>
>>>> It's a sad state of affairs in the world when someone is called a theif
and
>>>> a bandit for being good at marketing a product.
>>>
>>>Even if these 100+ year old laws are unfair, it's a fool who cannot work
around
>>>them.  Alas, MS has become the poster child for the malcontents.
>>
>>
>>And to show that in many ways the Sherman Anti-Trust act was a paper
>>tiger, Rockefeller, one way or the other, continued to 'control' all
>>of the various components of Standard Oil.  But, it sure looked good
>>to the general public, but was meaningless in the end.
>>>
>
>If the goal was to relieve Rockefeller from control of Standard Oil's
>assets than that might be correct but if the goal to was to open
>competition in different fields then that conclusion isn't
>supportable. 

That depends on what you call competition. Standard and it's latter
components were still the biggest single player in the oil business in
the U.S. and as Rockefeller also controlled most of the oil
transportation facilities, he, and Standard were in no less of a
position after than before the breakup.  When are the naive going to
realize that breakups of companies are to salve the great unwashed,
not to curtail business. 

EBB

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: retsiemynnaht@spammoc.beoohaygon...               14-Dec-99 16:35:00
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 19:59:12
Subj: Re: question about OS/2's memory managment and ...

Message sender: retsiemynnaht@spammoc.beoohaygone.net

From: "Mike Ruskai" <retsiemynnaht@spammoc.beoohaygone.net>

On Mon, 13 Dec 1999 21:49:21 -0500 (CST), Trancser wrote:

>>
>>The change in memory management between 2.1 and Warp (including the public
>>betas) was in paging.
>>
>>Rather than discard pages from key system DLL's that were no longer in
>>use, and have to reload them from file the next time a program loaded
>>them, they remain in the swapper file.  This improves performance because
>>paging out of the swapper into memory takes less time than loading the
>>module.
>
>So ...all base system DLL's constantly remain in the swap file (their
>pre-loaded upon bootup)? But non-system specific dll's (like third party
>programs; i.e. netscape?) are re-loaded direct from the original
>executables/dll's, NOT from swapper file? Wonder what OS/2'd be like, if
>instead it used the MMAP process to load executables (like linux supposedly
>does). 

Not all system DLL's, just certain key ones which are commonly used.  They
aren't preloaded at bootup, but will almost certainly be loaded by means
of being used.  What may or may not happen is that they are pushed to the
swapper (without paging out of memory) immediately.  Going by my
experience, this does happen when the initial swapper file size is large
enough, but doesn't happen when it's not (that is, it won't grow the
swapper just to stuff these DLL's in).  But I'm by no means certain
whether this is the case or not.  I've not poked around with Theseus/2 to
make a solid determination.

Note that this will only make a notable difference on an overcommitted
system.  If you have physical RAM still "free" (not associated with any
active pages), those DLL's won't be swapped out anyway, and the
performance advantage is irrelevant.  

>I wish IBM would improve OS/2's disk caching, so that programs dont always
>have to be reloaded from hd or swap file, but rather direct from RAM (again
>simular to linux). I think OS/2 would be even faster with such an approach!

On the surface that would seem to be desirable, but if you're going to
load the program up right away, why did you close it in the first place?

Of course, if we're talking about command-line programs which terminate
upon completion of the task in question, then it might make a difference. 
In that case, it'd be easier for the program author to detach the process
with an expiration time, using IPE to perform when the front-end is called
by the user.  This is what IBM's VACPP compiler does (with an option).


--
 - Mike

Remove 'spambegone.net' and reverse to send e-mail.


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: retsiemynnaht@spammoc.beoohaygon...               14-Dec-99 16:36:07
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 19:59:12
Subj: Re: question about OS/2's memory managment and ...

Message sender: retsiemynnaht@spammoc.beoohaygone.net

From: "Mike Ruskai" <retsiemynnaht@spammoc.beoohaygone.net>

On Tue, 14 Dec 1999 16:35:00 -0500 (EST), Mike Ruskai wrote:

[snip]

>with an expiration time, using IPE to perform when the front-end is called

[snip]

That's "IPC" (inter-process communication).  

Programs "using" IPE aren't doing much ;)


--
 - Mike

Remove 'spambegone.net' and reverse to send e-mail.


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: donnelly@tampabay.rr.com                          14-Dec-99 22:03:04
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 19:59:12
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: donnelly@tampabay.rr.com (Buddy Donnelly)

On Tue, 14 Dec 1999 21:32:17, siberREMOVETHIS@sympatico.ca (E. Barry 
Bruyea) wrote:

> 
> That depends on what you call competition. Standard and it's latter
> components were still the biggest single player in the oil business in
> the U.S. and as Rockefeller also controlled most of the oil
> transportation facilities, he, and Standard were in no less of a
> position after than before the breakup.  When are the naive going to
> realize that breakups of companies are to salve the great unwashed,
> not to curtail business. 

The trouble is, the next step beyond that in getting things back into 
proportion is to Nationalize them, as normally happens after a good 
revolution. 

Must be why The Great Unwashed become actual revolutionaries, while 
the Children of The Peerage settle for merely becoming lawyers.


-- 

Good luck,

Buddy

Buddy Donnelly
donnelly@tampabay.rr.com


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: larso@commodore.                                  14-Dec-99 22:03:29
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 19:59:12
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg)

As I stepped out onto the Stoop, I saw Steven C. Britton write:
> Ed Letourneau foamed:
> 
> > Like your reply here? Now you're telling us that the news media in Canada
> > must also be lying and led by thugs, since there isn't anything to back up
> > your claims.
> 
> The events during the Safeway strike were reported on 630 CHED.  I heard the
> report myself.

I was the report myself.

> > A political campaign and the rights of free people have been violated
> > (according to you), and you end by telling us that its someone elses fault
> > that it didn't make it into the history pages!
> 
> You obviously can't read newspapers.  The Ontario Election was a massive
> union goon battleground.

Famed actress Sarah Polley being injured in such.



-- 
Lars P. Ormberg     ICQ#:8827066
mailto:larso@ualberta.ca
The University of Lars:   http://www.ualberta.ca/~larso/

"The way you're bathed in light, reminds me of that night
God laid me down into your rose garden of trust and I was
swept away with nothin' left to say some helpless fool
yeah I was lost in a swoon of peace you're all I need to
find so when the time is right come to me sweetly, come
to me come to me..love will lead us, alright.  love will
lead us, she will lead us.  can you hear the dolphin's
cry?  see the road rise up to meet us its in the air we
breathe tonight love will lead us, she will lead us"
                            -Live, "The Dolphin's Cry"

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mcbrides@erols.com                                14-Dec-99 17:25:11
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 19:59:12
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: mcbrides@erols.com (Jerry McBride)

In article
<xvzjnvpfcnztbgbtneontrqrygnargpbz.fmpn650.pminews@news.pacbell.net>,
"Kim Cheung" <kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com> wrote:
>Serenity Systems markets a Managed Client(r) product which provides
>significant benefits to business users. We selected OS/2 as our
>desktop client for many reasons and one is the broad range of
>application support provided.
>
>However, we continue to receive requests to support Win32
>applications. Often this request is in addition to the requirement to
>run Presentation Manager or WorkPlace Shell applications, which are
>frequently Line of Business Applications.
>
>After reviewing the product solutions available, we determined that
>the best response to this requirement would be a hardware
>modification to the workstation, enabling the system to support a
>host operating system and guest operating system. Release 1 of the
>product is anticipated to support an OS/2 host and a Windows guest.
>The OS/2 support includes WorkSpace on Demand and OS/2 V4 (Merlin)
>with support for a Managed Client, run either as a diskless RPL
>client or as a traditional "fat" client.
>
>We have put an overview of this project on our web site
>(http://www.Serenity-Systems.com/), with an associated questionnaire
>which will help us through our product planning. Accessing the
>document requires that you have a valid log-on for the site. You can
>request a log on from Info@Serenity-Systems.com. Once you log on to
>the site, click on the Project Concorde image and, if it is
>appropriate, complete the questionnaire.
>
>

Hi Kim,

This is a great idea. Have you done any projections on "in the home" cost of
implementing Concorde? As I see it, it looks a bit expensive.


--

/-----------------------------------------------------------------------------\

|                From the Warp Server for eBusiness desktop of:              
|
|                               Jerome D. McBride                            
|
|                              mcbrides@erols.com                            
|
\-----------------------------------------------------------------------------/


*******************************************************************************

*                                   NetRexx                                  
*
*                           The onramp to the Internet                       
*
*                       http://www2.hursley.ibm.com/netrexx                  
*
*******************************************************************************


*******************************************************************************

*                                  OS/2 ????                                 
*
*                              YOU AREN'T ALONE!                             
*
*               http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~meile/los2cl.html         
*
*******************************************************************************


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               14-Dec-99 18:55:07
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 21:14:07
Subj: Re: Jury scheduled to hear Caldera vs. Microsoft next January

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Bob Germer wrote:
> 
> What I find offensive is your blanket statements when you have not
> experienced what I have experienced.

How ironic.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               14-Dec-99 19:06:24
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 21:14:07
Subj: Re: When will it be 100% done?

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Bob Germer wrote:
> 
> For your information Political Correctness is not a law. It is an attempt
> by inferior beings unable to compete in the world of words to stifle those
> who can.

For your information, there's a difference between being "politically correct"
and taking exception to obvious prejudicial statements, Boob.  Prejudice is an
attempt by ignorant beings with inferiority complexes to make themselves feel
better.  It allows them to construct vast fantasy worlds in which they are "on
top" and everyone else is inferior or subordinate to them.  Thankfully reality
does not resemble these fantasy worlds in the slightest.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: cmyers@austin.rr.com                              14-Dec-99 17:39:08
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 21:14:07
Subj: Re: Jury scheduled to hear Caldera vs. Microsoft next January

From: "Chad Myers" <cmyers@austin.rr.com>

Perhaps Killfile in OS/2 is intermittent and
sketchy, kinda like user interface and stability in
said OS?

--
Chad Myers
--
Have you recompiled your kernel today?


"Stuart Fox" <stuartf@datacom.co.nz> wrote in message
news:833f3s$14a$1@newsource.ihug.co.nz...
> <Unix & Mac advocacy trimmed, no need for them to see the embarrassment that
> is Boob Germer>
>
> Boob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com> wrote in message
> news:38548624$4$obot$mr2ice@news.pics.com...
> > On <830pqv$rrf$1@newsource.ihug.co.nz>, on 12/13/99 at 07:32 AM,
> >    "Stuart Fox" <stuartf@datacom.co.nz> said:
> >
> > > > Until you run the MS CD which DOES NOT COME THROUGH TECHNET on our
> > > > clients' networks, you are unqualified to make the statements above.
> Until
> > > > you have tried to run the MS CD, not the one from Technet, on my
> machine
> > > > you are unqualified to make the above statement. Until you have run
> the MS
> > > > CD on my ThinkPad 390e with the version of Win 98 installed by IBM,
> you
> > > > are unqualified to make the above statement. --
> >
> > > I've run them both - and guess what Boob?  No intermediate reboots.
> >
> > Again you prove yourself a liar. You have not run them on my clients'
> > networks and machines nor on mine.
>
> And you prove yourself a liar on two counts Boob.
>
> 1.  The testimony of myself and other IT professionals who work in the
> Microsoft arena is that IE doesn't need an intermediate reboot.  Maybe as
> someone who specialises in OS/2, you find Microsoft technology too
> complicated for you?
> 2. You told me I was killfiled.  You have repeatedly responded to my posts
> since then.  Either you are more of a boob than you seem, or you find the
> IBM technology too complicated?
>
> Let's look at Boob's performance - he can't install IE5, and he can't work a
> killfile.  I declare No Confidence in any of Boob's pronouncements.
>
>
>


--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               14-Dec-99 18:59:21
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 21:14:07
Subj: Re: When will it be 100% done?

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Bob Germer wrote:
> 
> On <38553D3B.4AABEBEE@stny.rr.com>, on 12/13/99 at 01:38 PM,
>    Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> said:
> 
> > Actually Curtis, that was Boob's.  Mine is: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (OS/2; U)
> 
> Another of Marty's stupid lies. And he wants us to believe he wrote the
> software he claims as his!

Have you checked my headers yet or are you going to keep making a jackass out
of yourself?  Amazing how you can keep denying facts to preserve your
dreamworld.  It surpasses even Tholen's idiocy.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               14-Dec-99 19:26:11
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 21:14:07
Subj: Re: Jury scheduled to hear Caldera vs. Microsoft next January

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Chad Myers wrote:
> 
> Perhaps Killfile in OS/2 is intermittent and
> sketchy, kinda like user interface and stability in
> said OS?

The only things sketchy about OS/2 are some of its advocates.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: cbass2112NOcbSPAM@my-deja.com.in...               14-Dec-99 16:02:20
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 21:14:07
Subj: Re: When will it be 100% done?

Message sender: cbass2112NOcbSPAM@my-deja.com.invalid

From: nobody <cbass2112NOcbSPAM@my-deja.com.invalid>

In article <38564196$6$obot$mr2ice@news.pics.com>, Bob Germer
<bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com> wrote:
> On <385493A8.E3471BE2@yahoo.com>, on 12/12/99 at 10:35 PM,
>    Curtis Bass <cndbass@yahoo.com> said:

-- snip --

> > Why use such pejorative language, then?  One can state that a
> > Canadian's opinion has no value wrt an American court without being
> > so rude about it.

-- snip --

> What is rude about a simple statement of fact?

The manner of making said statement. My observation stands; One can
state that a Canadian's opinion has no value wrt an American court
without being so rude about it, "clever" justifications for said
rudeness notwithstanding.

> How I choose to use the language in my writings is mine.

Have I claimed otherwise?

> If you don't like it, then don't read it.

Likewise, if you don't like the responses that your "choice of
language" engender, then 1) don't read them or 2) choose different
language.

> For your information Political Correctness is not a law.

Where have I claimed that it was?

> It is an attempt by inferior beings unable to compete in the world of
> words to stifle those who can.

Sanctimonious justification for rude language duly noted.

And I observe that one could make a case that the currect DOJ action is
being done on the behalf of "inferior [businesses] unable to compete in
the world of [business] to stifle those who can."


Curtis



* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu                14-Dec-99 19:24:08
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 21:14:07
Subj: Re: Dimsdale digest, volume 2451514

From: tholenbot <tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu>

Chris Pott wrote (using a pseudonym again):

> In article <tholenbot-DD6356.12461814121999@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>, 
> tholenbot <tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu> wrote:
> 
> > In article 
> > <D8B8F3D8D85CAC5D.869B37E61A13C666.7AA0B7602A326B11@lp.airnews.net>, 
> > TholenBotPro <tholenbot_pro@excite.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > In article 
> > > <tholenbot-4F9D5D.22464813121999@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>, 
> > > tholenbot <tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > In article 
> > > > <822D721AD94F6611.E56B97796450BE07.E85F52623CDBD81B@lp.airnews.net>,
> > > >  
> > > > TholenBotPro <tholenbot_pro@excite.com> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > In article 
> > > > > <tholenbot-052401.22585012121999@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>, 
> > > > > tholenbot <tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu> wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > In article 
> > > > > > <EBF2A3D3CFB0D7A1.D74B45A71B29B5BB.C7284BD91A4CE212@lp.airnews.n
> > > > > > et
> > > > > > >,
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > TholenBotPro <tholenbot_pro@excite.com> wrote:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > > In article 
> > > > > > > <tholenbot-1F68B3.21095912121999@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>, 
> > > > > > > tholenbot <tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu> wrote:
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > In article 
> > > > > > > > <943A24F40D7BA8AC.6A3ADFE94027DC00.F8D3FE80172DAD46@lp.airne
> > > > > > > > ws
> > > > > > > > .n
> > > > > > > > et
> > > > > > > > >,
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > TholenBotPro <tholenbot_pro@excite.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > In article 
> > > > > > > > > <tholenbot-752D72.08450907121999@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu
> > > > > > > > > >,
> > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > tholenbot <tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > In article 
> > > > > > > > > > <CABEA840AC12DBA0.43AE1E9722902FBD.F2C306C752FDB5D3@lp.a
> > > > > > > > > > ir
> > > > > > > > > > ne
> > > > > > > > > > ws
> > > > > > > > > > .n
> > > > > > > > > > et
> > > > > > > > > > >,
> > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > TholenBotPro� <tholenbot_pro@excite.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Forging stdio again Aaron?  I wonder how 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bluestreak.org 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > would 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > react 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the information that you're posting forgery.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wonder how Louis Freeh would react to the 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > information 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > that 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > you're 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > jumping into discussions again, Chris.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Irrelevant, 
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > Why?
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > Comprehend context, Eric.
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > I do, Chris.  I see you didn't answer the question.
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > Incorrect.  More evidence of your lack of reading 
> > > > > > > > > comprehension 
> > > > > > > > > skills.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > See what I mean?
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > No, given that you predictably butchered the context. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Illogical, given that I did not butcher your failure to answer 
> > > > > > the 
> > > > > > question.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Incorrect.
> > > > 
> > > > Typical unsubstantiated and erroneous claim.
> > > 
> > > Evidence, please.
> > 
> > See above.
> 
> Non sequitur.

Incorrect.

> > > > > > > Do you find this 
> > > > > > > "entertaining", Eric?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Irrelevant.
> > > > > 
> > > > > On the contrary, given that the context is your entertainment.
> > > > 
> > > > Incorrect.
> > > 
> > > On what basis do you make this claim?
> > 
> > The basis is your failure to answer the question, not my entertainment.
> 
> Incorrect 

Balderdash, Chris.

> and illogical

Incorrect.

>, as you predictably deleted my answer to the 
> question for your own entertainment purposes. 

Illogical, given that there wasn't any answer for me to have deleted.  
Seeing things that aren't there again, Chris?

> How typical.

Typical unsubstantiated and erroneous claim.

-- 
I do not 'approve' phrases.
-Dave Tholen

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: josco@sea.monterey.edu                            14-Dec-99 17:36:14
  To: All                                               15-Dec-99 03:46:00
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: josco <josco@sea.monterey.edu>

On Tue, 14 Dec 1999, E. Barry Bruyea wrote:

> On Tue, 14 Dec 1999 09:13:13 -0800, Glenn Davies
> <glend@nospam.direct.ca> wrote:

> >If the goal was to relieve Rockefeller from control of Standard Oil's
> >assets than that might be correct but if the goal to was to open
> >competition in different fields then that conclusion isn't
> >supportable. 
> 
> That depends on what you call competition. 

What do the historians say?  We should be able to track your opinion in a
standard text book on economic history of the US.  Did Rockefeller control
or participate in a Trust after Standard Oil was busted up?

You do understand what a Trust is?  If you say he maintain his monopoly
power after Standard oil was busted up then he ran a Trust.  


--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               14-Dec-99 21:16:16
  To: All                                               15-Dec-99 03:46:00
Subj: Re: Dimsdale digest, volume 2451514

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Eric Bennett wrote (using a pseudonym again):
> 
> >, as you predictably deleted my answer to the
> > question for your own entertainment purposes.
> 
> Illogical, given that there wasn't any answer for me to have deleted.
> Seeing things that aren't there again, Chris?

How ironic, coming from the person who admitted to wearing dirty glasses.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: letoured@nospam.net                               14-Dec-99 18:56:13
  To: All                                               15-Dec-99 03:46:01
Subj: Re: Jury scheduled to hear Caldera vs. Microsoft next January

From: letoured@nospam.net

Chad Myers" <cmyers@austin.rr.com> said:

>Perhaps Killfile in OS/2 is intermittent and
>sketchy, kinda like user interface and stability in
>said OS?

As long as you want to be an misinformation troll, what do see as your
contribution here?



>--
>Chad Myers
>--
>Have you recompiled your kernel today?


_____________
Ed Letourneau <letoured@sover.net>

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: josco@ibm.net                                     14-Dec-99 20:46:00
  To: All                                               15-Dec-99 03:46:01
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net>


"Steven C. Britton" wrote:

> If I were Bill, I'd retire; take my money, and move to the Cayman Islands
> and live out the rest of my life in tax-free comfort; raising my middle
> finger to the collective lunacy of the jealous left wing.

Microsoft is one of the most progressively liberal companies in the US.  I
like
them for that position.

Defending MS against left wingers?  Who!?! I never thought of SUN's Scott
McNealy as a liberal let alone a jealous left winger.  I bet he'd laugh at
that
slurr being his father was a GM auto exec.  MS's enemies are conservative
corporations in say Utah and companies owned by billionaires like Larry
Ellison
and Soctt McNealy.
It's all about money and power between wealthy and powerful people.

So Steven - are you really that knee jerk and dense?  Larry Ellison is a
jealous
left winger?

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: donnelly@tampabay.rr.com                          15-Dec-99 09:14:12
  To: All                                               15-Dec-99 10:26:21
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: donnelly@tampabay.rr.com (Buddy Donnelly)

On Wed, 15 Dec 1999 01:46:01, Joseph <josco@ibm.net> wrote:
> 
> Microsoft is one of the most progressively liberal companies in the US.  I
like
> them for that position.

??? Are we talking about Micro$oft Corporation in Redmond Washington? 
Then read this piece, from their own hometown, normally home-cookin' 
Seattle Times:

	http://www.seattletimes.com/extra/browse/html97/whit_102097.html

"Rep. Rick White, R-Bainbridge Island,..., whose district encompasses 
Microsoft's Redmond                             headquarters, has 
received more contributions from Microsoft employees and 
political-action committees than any other member of Congress in the 
past 2 1/2 years, according to a review of Federal Election Commission
records by the Center for Responsive Politics."

White is known in Congress primarily for having authored a securities 
litigation bill that would essentially prevent stockholders and 
institutional investment managers, such as state pension funds, from 
going to court to sue management for fraudulent mis-management. 

That doesn't sound very progressive to anybody, except potential 
miscreants of the corporate management ilk. And in any case, massive 
and unprincipaled concentration of Wealth is the opposite of "liberal"
social views.


-- 

Good luck,

Buddy

Buddy Donnelly
donnelly@tampabay.rr.com


--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: letoured@nospam.net                               15-Dec-99 04:46:26
  To: All                                               15-Dec-99 10:26:21
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: letoured@nospam.net

Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com> said:

>> Your first error is the assumption that I would want to work for an
>> asshole.

>Nobody is forcing you to.
>If you don't like your boss, quit.


>> Your second error is assuming that all your contradictory utterances have
>passed unnoticed.
>I haven't said anything contradictory.

>> -- I especially liked the one about how your workers would never want to
>> unionize because you would treat them so well, and then hours later in
>> another message you said that if someone is starving the only remedy
>> should be handouts from passers-by and charity.

>There's nothing contradictory in that.  Only an idiot would even try to
>tie those two together.

Lets see. You tell us that you identify and understand your workers so
well that that they would think of unionizing. But you so little empathy
for all others that you would let them starve unless some passer-by came
to their aid. But there is something wrong fact that they are tied
together. 

I think I know how to clear this up. Please tell us which one of you made
which statement, or did you just run out of your medication?


>> I do wish you would do some _real work and give us the URLs to document
>> your claims.
>I do _real_ work:  I'm not in a union.

Ah, but its a simple thing to do. You said so yourself in another message
along with I'm too dumb to do it.  Besides its your chance to prove that
you're not lier. CEOs try to keep that image crystal clear, but you knew
that and its only your unending trust in the goodness of mankind that has
kept you from showing off. Right.

_____________
Ed Letourneau <letoured@sover.net>

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: ivaes@hr.nl                                       15-Dec-99 11:11:00
  To: All                                               15-Dec-99 10:26:21
Subj: Re: When will it be 100% done?

From: Illya Vaes <ivaes@hr.nl>

flmighe@attglobal.net wrote:
>StarOffice (a Java Application)

Wrong. They use their own cross-platform application framework (StarView I
think).

>runs shamelessly on Warp 4.

ROTFLMAO.
I think you meant "seamlessly"  :-)
 
>It is the small stuff that is especially impressive. For example when
>an HTML page comes up you can use the page up and down keys the
>way they were meant to be used. Opera may have that kind of
>functionally but Netscape 4.6 on OS/2 does not.

Click in the main window (containing the web page), or use Tab to have it get
the focus, and Page Up and Page Down work "normally" there too.
 
-- 
Illya Vaes   (ivaes@hr.nl)        "Do...or do not, there is no 'try'" - Yoda
Holland Railconsult BV, Integral Management of Railprocess Systems
Postbus 2855, 3500 GW Utrecht
Tel +31.30.2653273, Fax 2653385           Not speaking for anyone but myself

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: aboritz@cybernex.net                              15-Dec-99 00:49:09
  To: All                                               15-Dec-99 10:26:21
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: aboritz@cybernex.net (Alan Boritz)

In article <HN2tEbdbtdhk-pn2-ysTcG5F4P4uN@localhost>, rcrane@octa4.net.au
(Richard A Crane) wrote:
>On Sun, 12 Dec 1999 14:42:18, aboritz@cybernex.net (Alan
>Boritz) wrote:
>
>> In article <82tugi$rlo$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, innoval@ibm.net wrote:
>> >In article <zterrarrkvfarg.fmk8te0.pminews@news.exis.net>,
>> >  "Michael K Greene" <mgreene@hotbot.com> wrote:
>> >> On Fri, 10 Dec 1999 17:32:00 -0800, Tim Martin wrote:
>> >> Any other company would get a "great!!!", but let's look at who you
>> >> are talking about - Innoval????
>> >
>> >Okay. Let's get some facts straight before this goes to far off topic.
>> 
>> Fine.  Try answering these questions:
>> 
>> How many Postroad News licenses did you sell after announcing that you
>> discontinued support for the product?
>>
>As one who was pissed off with Innoval when they dropped the
>Newreader, I actually thought that they had improved their
>act - the announcement about JSM and Postroad Mailer made me
>willing to even consider a product of theirs again.
>PS I'm still happy using the Postroad mailer that I brought
>at the same time a the Abortive Postroad Newreader (long
>after I've forgotten the cost of it).

Well, it should be pretty obvious that some people are happy with it, and some
are not.  It's got an interesting GUI, but it's missing simple functions that
most other mail clients have, like the ability to print a properly formatted
message for sent-mail (they're all missing the date), missing references
control line on replies, and a simple hook for a received mail indicator. It's
unfortunately, the poorly implemented "features" made their way into JSM.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: jknott@ibm.net                                    15-Dec-99 06:01:08
  To: All                                               15-Dec-99 10:26:21
Subj: Re: do you have OS/2 1.1?

From: jknott@ibm.net (James Knott)

In article <837hgj$6so$1@news.hawaii.edu>,
tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen) wrote:
>Jim Frost writes:
>
>> So not only did the PC have OSs with GUIs, it even had them with fully
>> distributed GUIs -- something OS/2 can't claim even today.
>
>I guess that depends on what you call a "fully distributed" GUI.  There
>is a product that will let you see the OS/2 desktop with a web browser.
>That means you can run your OS/2 desktop from UNIX, for example.
>

It's called "Desktop on Call".  There are OS/2, Linux and even Windows
versions of it.  It does work, but is *SLOW*, even when running 
Netscape on a Pentium 150 on a 16 Mb token ring lan, with both 
computers on the same desk.  It's really strange to see the desktop 
change almost instantly on the remote system and watch the same info 
slowly appear on the local computer.


-- 
E-mail jknott@ca.ibm.com
_________________________________________________________________________
The above opinions are my own and not those of ISM Corp., a subsidiary of
IBM Canada Ltd.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: siberREMOVETHIS@sympatico.ca                      15-Dec-99 12:06:25
  To: All                                               15-Dec-99 10:26:21
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: siberREMOVETHIS@sympatico.ca (E. Barry Bruyea)

On Tue, 14 Dec 1999 22:03:08 GMT, donnelly@tampabay.rr.com (Buddy
Donnelly) wrote:

>On Tue, 14 Dec 1999 21:32:17, siberREMOVETHIS@sympatico.ca (E. Barry 
>Bruyea) wrote:
>
>> 
>> That depends on what you call competition. Standard and it's latter
>> components were still the biggest single player in the oil business in
>> the U.S. and as Rockefeller also controlled most of the oil
>> transportation facilities, he, and Standard were in no less of a
>> position after than before the breakup.  When are the naive going to
>> realize that breakups of companies are to salve the great unwashed,
>> not to curtail business. 
>
>The trouble is, the next step beyond that in getting things back into 
>proportion is to Nationalize them, as normally happens after a good 
>revolution. 
>
>Must be why The Great Unwashed become actual revolutionaries, while 
>the Children of The Peerage settle for merely becoming lawyers.


Good point.  Nationalization is a great way to destroy any business,
unless, of course, the nationalized industry has no competition which
puts you right back were you started. That's the problem with
socialist economics; it's circularity.
>
>
>-- 
>
>Good luck,
>
>Buddy
>
>Buddy Donnelly
>donnelly@tampabay.rr.com
>
>

EBB

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: siberREMOVETHIS@sympatico.ca                      15-Dec-99 12:08:04
  To: All                                               15-Dec-99 10:26:21
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: siberREMOVETHIS@sympatico.ca (E. Barry Bruyea)

On Tue, 14 Dec 1999 17:36:29 -0800, josco <josco@sea.monterey.edu>
wrote:

>On Tue, 14 Dec 1999, E. Barry Bruyea wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 14 Dec 1999 09:13:13 -0800, Glenn Davies
>> <glend@nospam.direct.ca> wrote:
>
>> >If the goal was to relieve Rockefeller from control of Standard Oil's
>> >assets than that might be correct but if the goal to was to open
>> >competition in different fields then that conclusion isn't
>> >supportable. 
>> 
>> That depends on what you call competition. 
>
>What do the historians say?  We should be able to track your opinion in a
>standard text book on economic history of the US.  Did Rockefeller control
>or participate in a Trust after Standard Oil was busted up?
>
>You do understand what a Trust is?  If you say he maintain his monopoly
>power after Standard oil was busted up then he ran a Trust.  

Gee Whiz, Ya think?
>
>

EBB

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From: jbergman@ixc.ixc.net                              15-Dec-99 06:18:22
  To: All                                               15-Dec-99 10:26:21
Subj: Re: question about OS/2's memory managment and ...

From: "Trancser" <jbergman@ixc.ixc.net>

>
>On the surface that would seem to be desirable, but if you're going to
>load the program up right away, why did you close it in the first place?
>
>Of course, if we're talking about command-line programs which terminate
>upon completion of the task in question, then it might make a difference. 
>In that case, it'd be easier for the program author to detach the process
>with an expiration time, using IPE to perform when the front-end is called
>by the user.  This is what IBM's VACPP compiler does (with an option).
>

This (I'm pretty sure) is were a process called "MMAP" (or Memory Map - or an
equaivalant) would come in. If I remember correctly, if used, it would
instantly map a program to an xxx  yyyy address in physical ram, which should
start the program up nearly instantaneous (w/ virutal no major harddrive
access - at least it seems to happens in Linux like that :) and by also
having a dynamically resizing disk cache, would also provide the ability of
being able to call up the same program instantly, w/o any disk access
whatsoever. I will admit though, I'm ROUGHLY quoting a friend, that just
happens to be a Linux buff ....but ...anyway :)

It's just that I recently install a flavor a Linux (stampede) out of a
recommendation from the same person, and....I wont deny that execution time,
and swapping were pretty nice. BUT, even though, I still love to be in OS/2,
personaly.

I hope that (if the OS/2 source code WAS REALLY released ...OR is just out
there SOMEWHERE) someone out there MIGHT ....be able to DO something with it
....and not for another OS either...for OS/2! But do something nice with it.
Oh well....I'm just hopelessly wishing there.

but uh....heh... IF someone WERE to do something with it, maybe re-design the
hpfs driver (and whatever else needs modifying) and give the ability to
either be able to control disk cache, or have it dynamically resizable
....whichever way the user(s) would want it to be (personally I THINK
dynamically resizing - and while the system is booted to ...not were it just
takes a % of ram at bootup, and that ram is locked, unswappable, from
anything else)

ok ....I guess I'm a li'l stuck on that dynamic disk cache thing, but
anyway...it probably would be nice.



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From: lucien@metrowerks.com                             15-Dec-99 12:58:27
  To: All                                               15-Dec-99 10:26:21
Subj: Re: Navigator 4.7 is available!! OS/2 is behind again!!

From: lucien@metrowerks.com

In article <837cnj$354$1@news.hawaii.edu>,
  tholenantispam@hawaii.edu wrote:
> Lucien writes:
>
> >>>>>>> Here is the JDK sentence
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 1) "OS/2 Java 1.1.8 implements Java 1.2 functionality. Bummer,
> >>>>>>> bummer"
>
> >>>>>> Pay particular attention to the additional information provided
> >>>>>> by the reference to Java 1.1.8, Lucien.
>
> >>>>> Uninformed response.
>
> >>>> Incorrect (see below for why); how ironic.
>
> >>>>> There is no grammatical quantifier in this sentence.
>
> >>>> There is a logical quantifier in that sentence.
>
> >>> ....such that the ambiguity is resolved?
>
> >> Yes.
>
> > Then one of the two sentences below should be ungrammatical.
>
> Illogical, given that lack of ambiguity does not require ungrammatical
> construction.

Uninformed response. Your contention that the sentence is not
underlyingly ambiguous predicts that one of the sentences should be
disallowed; yet, both are grammatical.

Explain why.

> > You're confusing truth value and grammaticality
>
> Incorrect, Lucien.

I am correct - you are profoundly confused.

>  Are you still suffering from reading comprehension
> problems?

The reader will note the presentation of more irrelevancies, the
typical Tholen resort when the logic and evidence have run out.

>  I said that the latter is not logical.

Irrelevant. The logic of the sentence is not the issue; rather, its
grammaticality in the face of your (erroneous) contention of the
absence of an ambiguity WRT quantification in the base sentence is the
issue.

Here are the sentences again:

"OS/2 Java 1.1.8 implements some Java 1.2 functionality."

and

"OS/2 Java 1.1.8 implements all Java 1.2 functionality."

In light of your contention that no grammatical ambiguity WRT
quantification exists in the base JDK sentence, explain why both
variants presented here are grammatical, coherent sentences of English.

Lucien S.


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

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From: jimf@frostbytes.com                               15-Dec-99 08:12:23
  To: All                                               15-Dec-99 10:26:21
Subj: Re: question about OS/2's memory managment and ...

From: Jim Frost <jimf@frostbytes.com>

Trancser wrote:
> This (I'm pretty sure) is were a process called "MMAP" (or Memory Map - or
an
> equaivalant) would come in. If I remember correctly, if used, it would
> instantly map a program to an xxx  yyyy address in physical ram, which
should
> start the program up nearly instantaneous (w/ virutal no major harddrive
> access - at least it seems to happens in Linux like that :) and by also
> having a dynamically resizing disk cache, would also provide the ability of
> being able to call up the same program instantly, w/o any disk access
> whatsoever.

Mmap isn't magic, it still has to pull the data from the disk and in most
cases you still have to perform relocations on it.  What's happening is that
you're demand paging the data; only the parts you actually use will ever get
pulled from the disk.  That could be a lot of it if there are relocations to
perform, or very little if it's pre-relocated.

Mmap operates more or less like a small paging file.  A certain amount of VM
is set aside for the contents of the file and the application (or program
launcher) starts working as if the file were really there.  Each time it
touches a page that isn't there yet the page gets loaded from disk and
inserted into the VM space.  If you can keep the number of touched pages to a
minimum you save a lot of time.

Linux' high performance is as much a matter of lazy dynamic linking (a trick
Sun introduced to UNIX way back in SunOS4, circa 1987) and extensive caching
than anything else.  Plus most of the applications are really tiny compared to
those of OS/2 or Windows.

> I hope that (if the OS/2 source code WAS REALLY released ...OR is just out
> there SOMEWHERE) someone out there MIGHT ....be able to DO something with it

You can give up on that thought.  You'll never see OS/2 source code.  There
are too many people who would have to agree to it, not the least of which is
Microsoft.

jim

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From: viewme18@hotmail.com                              15-Dec-99 00:33:28
  To: All                                               15-Dec-99 16:48:08
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: PL <viewme18@hotmail.com>

On Sun, 12 Dec 1999 22:50:45 -0700, "Steven C. Britton"
<sbritton@cadvision.com> wrote:

>Kenn Sunley wrote:
>
>> Go ahead bust some unions - and while you're at it - get rid of medicare,
>...
>
>Sure!
>
>> old age pensions, ...
>
>Absolutely!
>
>> ... all pensions for that matter,
>
>People should be responsible for their own pensions.  If the company they
>work for wants to set up a group pension plan, that's fine too.  Government
>has no responsibility in the matter.

Totally agree. But is the employer willing to pay the extra wages to
me so that I could do that?
Not bloody likely!!
>
>> universal school educations ...
>
>Without a doubt!
>
>> all labour codes - including health and safety...
>
>Don't work for companies that don't keep responsible health and safety
>codes.  You don't need a union to uphold that.  If nobody works for such a
>company, they can't produce; and therefore they disappear.
Absolute bullshit. 
Take your head out of the sand. Alot of the young people don't even
know what the rules are. There are many companies that do not wish to
comply with even exsisting rules. So you have the union to ensure that
the company does follow the rules. Government does do anything until
after the infraction.

>
>... or, at least, only those willing to work in those conditions would work
>there, and the company wouldn't produce _good_ stuff, and they'd disappear.
>
>> ... minimum wage standards...
>
>Sure!  Minimum wage kills jobs.
What, trying to turn this country into another Mexico?
If we allow the business leaders to set some baseline for wages, all
of our wages would drop down to virtually nothing.
But that's what many businesses would like isn't it?
Oh and if it does kill jobs, those jobs aren't worth having aroung
anyhow!
>
>> human rights...
>
>Don't be stupid.
>
>The only human rights are (a) the right to life, (b) the right to liberty,
>and (c) the right to own and enjoy property.
>
>Any other "right" is a fictitious construct.
>
>> ... environmental laws...
>
>Sure!  If a company isn't being environmentally responsible, then people
>won't do business with them.
That maybe only after the company has been found out. Even then I
doubt it would change. We need some type of policing of this. There
are some companies who comply and are proud of it and others need a
good kick in the ass.
>
>> just cause dismissals ...
>
>Unions have nothing to do with that; it's a violation of one's right to
>liberty because the company, by not dismissing with just cause, is
>initiating force against the person they're canning.
You are totally wrong. Without a union how do you fight a wrongful
dismissal?
Alberta Labour?
Now thas a joke. They will not help.
Take them to court?
How many workers could afford that? Lawyers want money up front (Lots
of it) 

Having managed both union and non union locations. Union shops are by
far easier to manage. Ever fired a union worker? I have, when it
became nessesary due to lack of preformance. Follow the rules and it
is easy. And to boot no wrongful dismissal suite. 
So what are you afraid ?? Might have to pay higher wages? or benefits?
make the work place safer?

>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>What have YOU done to bust a union today?
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Work better: Work union-free.
>
>Steven C. Britton
>Calgary
>
>www.cadvision.com/sbritton
>
>

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From: rsteiner@visi.com                                 14-Dec-99 22:24:15
  To: All                                               15-Dec-99 16:48:08
Subj: Re: do you have OS/2 1.1?

From: rsteiner@visi.com (Richard Steiner)

Here in comp.os.os2.misc, Jim Frost <jimf@frostbytes.com>
spake unto us, saying:

>Not even close.  GEM existed by then, as did Windows 2, and there were about
>half a dozen PC UNIXen with X11 support by then (I used three of them).  So
>not only did the PC have OSs with GUIs, it even had them with fully
>distributed GUIs -- something OS/2 can't claim even today.

Any OS/2 user running XFree86/2 could certainly claim this.  :-)

-- 
   -Rich Steiner  >>>--->  rsteiner@visi.com  >>>---> Bloomington, MN
     OS/2 + BeOS + Linux + Solaris + Win95 + WinNT4 + FreeBSD + DOS
      + VMWare + Fusion + vMac + Executor = PC Hobbyist Heaven! :-)
          Do I BELIEVE in the Bible?!  HELL man, I've SEEN one

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         15-Dec-99 07:54:29
  To: All                                               15-Dec-99 16:48:08
Subj: Re: do you have OS/2 1.1?

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Jim Frost writes:

> So not only did the PC have OSs with GUIs, it even had them with fully
> distributed GUIs -- something OS/2 can't claim even today.

I guess that depends on what you call a "fully distributed" GUI.  There
is a product that will let you see the OS/2 desktop with a web browser.
That means you can run your OS/2 desktop from UNIX, for example.

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From: jimf@frostbytes.com                               15-Dec-99 08:25:08
  To: All                                               15-Dec-99 16:48:09
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: Jim Frost <jimf@frostbytes.com>

Kim Cheung wrote:
> >This is a great idea. Have you done any projections on "in the home" cost
of
> >implementing Concorde? As I see it, it looks a bit expensive.
> 
> "Expensive" is always a relative term - of course.
> 
> The "in the home" cost will be determined purely by the qty produced and
> that's why we wanted to get some sense of that using a survey.    I would
say
> you shouldn't expect it to be less than a "few" hundred dollars.

Keeping in mind that I wasn't able to find any information at all on Concorde
looking at Serenity Systems' website:

If the cost is going to be in the, say, $300 range one wonders why you
wouldn't just buy a whole other machine to run Windows.  It's not like it'd
cost a lot more (or, probably, any more at all once you got done buying
Windows and the basic application suite retail versus getting it bundled).

Or, more generally: What's the point of an expensive software solution when
hardware is so cheap?

jim

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From: jimf@frostbytes.com                               15-Dec-99 08:02:06
  To: All                                               15-Dec-99 16:48:09
Subj: Re: do you have OS/2 1.1?

From: Jim Frost <jimf@frostbytes.com>

Dave Tholen wrote:
> 
> Jim Frost writes:
> 
> > So not only did the PC have OSs with GUIs, it even had them with fully
> > distributed GUIs -- something OS/2 can't claim even today.
> 
> I guess that depends on what you call a "fully distributed" GUI.  There
> is a product that will let you see the OS/2 desktop with a web browser.
> That means you can run your OS/2 desktop from UNIX, for example.

I stand corrected.

In any case the claim that OS/2 1.1 was the first GUI-equipped OS for the PC
was dead wrong.

jim

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From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               15-Dec-99 09:51:19
  To: All                                               15-Dec-99 16:48:09
Subj: Re: question about OS/2's memory managment and ...

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Trancser wrote:
> 
> >
> >On the surface that would seem to be desirable, but if you're going to
> >load the program up right away, why did you close it in the first place?
> >
> >Of course, if we're talking about command-line programs which terminate
> >upon completion of the task in question, then it might make a difference.
> >In that case, it'd be easier for the program author to detach the process
> >with an expiration time, using IPE to perform when the front-end is called
> >by the user.  This is what IBM's VACPP compiler does (with an option).
> >
> 
> This (I'm pretty sure) is were a process called "MMAP" (or Memory Map - or
an
> equaivalant) would come in.

I don't believe current versions of OS/2 support MMapping.  I don't know
how the VAC compiler does what was described above, but GCC launches a
separate program (EMXLOAD) which keeps the EMX DLLs, the preprocessor
(CPP), and optimizing compiler (CC1) loaded and waiting for input.  I
believe it does this using pipes or message queues.

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From: cndbass@yahoo.com                                 14-Dec-99 20:14:20
  To: All                                               15-Dec-99 16:48:09
Subj: Re: When will it be 100% done?

From: Curtis Bass <cndbass@yahoo.com>


Bob Germer wrote:
> 
> On <38553D3B.4AABEBEE@stny.rr.com>, on 12/13/99 at 01:38 PM,
>    Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> said:
> 
> > Actually Curtis, that was Boob's.  Mine is: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (OS/2; U)
> 
> Another of Marty's stupid lies. And he wants us to believe he wrote the
> software he claims as his!

No lie -- I just screwed up last time, cutting and pasting the X-Mailer
info from your header. Marty's X-Mailer is:

     X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (OS/2; U)

Just like he said it was.

If you have a problem with that, then, well, learn how to read headers
before making stupid statements.

If you'll care to notice, my header is the same as Marty's.

-- snip --


Curtis

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From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           15-Dec-99 10:00:15
  To: All                                               15-Dec-99 16:48:09
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <3856b68e.11700064@news1.sympatico.ca>, on 12/14/99 at 09:32 PM,
   siberREMOVETHIS@sympatico.ca (E. Barry Bruyea) said:


> That depends on what you call competition. Standard and it's latter
> components were still the biggest single player in the oil business in
> the U.S. and as Rockefeller also controlled most of the oil
> transportation facilities, he, and Standard were in no less of a
> position after than before the breakup.  When are the naive going to
> realize that breakups of companies are to salve the great unwashed, not
> to curtail business. 

What you said about Standard Oil has validity to a point. After the facts
became known, changes were made to the anti-trust laws which forced real
competition. Also, Rockefeller never really controlled any railroads. They
were controlled by friends of his and that control was destroyed both by
anti-trust and the takeover of the railroads during WW I by the
government.

The breakup of AT&T is a much better example. The public certainly did
benefit with scads of competitors offering various long distance plans. My
cost per minute for long distance has gone down more than 80% in terms of
constant dollars from the pre breakup days.

One of the great errors made when comparing prices is using current
dollars. One must make comparisons in terms of constant dollars, i.e.
adjust for inflation between current and the past date. Take, for example,
unleaded regular gasoline. In 1973, the price went to about 70 cents in
1973 dollars per gallon after the oil crisis. Today it costs about $1.20
per gallon here in NJ, a little more in Penna. To some, that is a huge
increase. In reality, it is a DECREASE. $0.70 adjusted for inflation is
equivalent to approximately $2.10 in today's dollars.

The lowest price I ever paid for gasoline was 22 cents a gallon in 1957.
That is eqivalent to approximately $1.25 today. It took 10 gallons in 1957
to go 100 miles in an un-air conditioned car with no power steering, no
power brakes, etc. Today, less money takes me 250 miles in air conditioned
comfort with power everything.


--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------

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From: jenuths@homacjen.ab.ca                            15-Dec-99 23:19:15
  To: All                                               15-Dec-99 21:17:21
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: jenuths@homacjen.ab.ca

In can.politics Steven C. Britton <sbritton@cadvision.com> wrote:
> Stephen Untruth wrote:
>>
>> The rates are on the increase (through a federal/provincial
>> agreement) and will top out at 9.9% in 2003.

> Largest tax-grab in history.

> Also the contribution must be matched by employers.

Yup.  A total of 9.9% which is split equally between employers and
employees.

>> The first $ 3,500 of income is exempt from Canada Pension Plan
>> Contributions.  The maximum pensionable earnings is $ 36,900.

> Oooohh... my heart beats with glee.

>> This the maximum contribution in 2003 will be $ 3,306.60, or
>> approximately 8.9% of income for a person earning $ 36,900.  This
>> payment is born 1/2 by the employer and 1/2 by the employee.

> And if the premiums were eliminated, employers and employees could set up
> matched plans at the same rate and earn a far better return.

Somehow I doubt it.  A large group plan is certainly more efficient
on things like this.

>> Contribution rates for people earning other than this are significantly
>> smaller, as is the current contribution rate.
>>
>> In addition to pension income, the plan provides for disability income
>> (and is the basis of almost all private sector disability plans),
>> survivor benefits (for spouses), orphan benefits (for children), and
>> a death benefit.
>>
>> Given the large pool of people in the plan, its rather a bargain.

> Given the nature and way the plan is operated (a national pyramid scam), it
> is $600 billion in debt, and on the verge of collapse.  Not even the recent
> tax grab will fix it.

It will be around long after you are gone.

Which is quote a happy thought.

> Face it, Stephen, your god, Paul Martin, has simply delayed the
> inevitable -- and I don't take kindly to my money being forcefully stolen
> from me and then wasted -- especially since I'm not going to see a penny of
> return in it.

> In my lifetime, I will put in tens of thousands of dollars in CPP premiums;
> and what do I get when I retire? 

The CPP will provide for the minimum.  You may choose to invest in RRSPs and
all of that.

 A flat income of about $8900 a year -- not
> enough to live on.  Not only that, but the rate of return on investment is
> about 1.2%, which is far LESS than the 15% I'm doing on my mutual funds
> right now.

That's why the federal government negotiated with the provinces to 
change the investment strategy of the fund.

If only those provinces were not in the way, this would have been
done years ago.

-- 
Best regards,

Stephen Jenuth
(jenuths@homacjen.ab.ca)

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.

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From: sbritton@cadvision.com                            15-Dec-99 16:13:11
  To: All                                               15-Dec-99 21:17:21
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com>

PL wrote:

> >> Take your head out of the sand. Alot of the young people don't even
> >> know what the rules are.
> >
> >It's their responsibility to educate themselves.

> And by that time some get hurt.

They should educate themselves BEFORE going to work.

> >> There are many companies that do not wish to comply with even exsisting
> >rules.
> >
> >That's fine.  People shouldn't work for them then.

> That maybe answer for the well off. But for many they cannot afford to
> quit a job and just move to the next one.

Not everything is easy.  I never said it was -- but the choice is always
there.

> >Unions aren't needed for that.  If the company isn't following the rules,
it
> >is in the staff's best interest to seek other employment.  I certainly
> >wouldn't work for an unsafe or abusive company -- unionized or not.

> But the unions do help protect the employee in those situations. Make
> that type of company a union shop do the job very well.
> If I could not change the company, I also would not work for a unsafe
> or abusive company

Quitting en masse has a bigger effect than unionizing.  It also causes
instant results; rather than the band-aid approach of unionizing; which
basically sets up an adversarial bargaining process and breeds animosity
between the union and management.

It also sets up stupid ideas such as "the workers" and "management".  As if
"managers" didn't "work".


> >> >> ... minimum wage standards...
> >> >
> >> >Sure!  Minimum wage kills jobs.
> >> What, trying to turn this country into another Mexico?
> >> If we allow the business leaders to set some baseline for wages, all
> >> of our wages would drop down to virtually nothing.
> >
> >That's not true -- I won't work for less than a certain amount.

> I am sure you would not. Nor would I. But there are a again many that
> do not have either the education or skills to be picky about how much
> they earn.

Then they should get educated.  Don't treat the symptom, cure the disease.

> >Businesses pay people what they're worth.  If your statement were true,
> >everybody in the world would make minimum wage and nothing more -- but I
for
> >one make much more than minimum wage.
>
> 25 years ago I would have agreed with you. But not now. It use to be
> if you worked hard, and proved to your manager that you could handle
> extra duties, he usually responded with more money and maybe even a
> promotion if you keep it you.

Then quit.

The truth is that nowadays, people change careers five times in their
life -- because where they go offers better rewards.

> Generally now they give you a promotion to "working supervisor" just
> so they do have to pay overtime. And if there is a pay increase it is
> low you have to ask if it is a joke.

Then quit.  Find another job.

> I also make much more than minimun wage, but that does not blind me
> from the realities of the less fortunate.

Depends on how you define "less fortunate".  Many people on minimum wage at
McDonalds are there because they're students going through school and it's a
source of basic income.  They're usually dependent on their parents for a
place to live, etc, so they don't NEED anything more than that.


> >> Oh and if it does kill jobs, those jobs aren't worth having aroung
> >> anyhow!
> >
> >I didn't say that.  Minimum wage laws actually harm the people they're
meant
> >to help.  If I ran a McDonald's, for example, raising minimum wage would
> >force me to lay off workers (or at least not expand my workforce),
causing
> >service and quality to drop, and I might be forced out of business --
which
> >means that EVERYBODY would lose their job.

> That maybe so for a very small percentage of business. But if they are
> running on such a small margin of profit it would be best if they did
> close shop.

Raising minimum wage would harm ALL businesses.

> >You take the company to court like I did.  And I won.
> >
> >Not all lawyers.  There's legal aid, some lawyers work on a percentage
> >basis...

> My daughter has been there and done that. Legal aid will not accept
> that type of case and every lawyer we called in Edmonton would not
> accept the case without money up front. Do you know why? Because it
> was not a $100,000/yr job. That was right from the mouth of one the
> lawyers we called.
> So who else to defend the employee when all that fails?

You have to decide if the court battle is worth it -- if the result is more
than the lawyer's fee, it's worth it.

> >I'm not afraid of any of that: because in that situation, I'd ensure that
I
> >had an extremely safe workplace (which exceeded the safety standards by a
> >long shot), pay people what they're worth (which, when they're good, can
be
> >far higher than a union would get), and give good benefits.

> May you would ,but countless others would not.

Then countless others would fail.  Countless others DO fail.  Most of them
run bad businesses.

> If they were all good corporate citizens the need for unions would not be
needed. But
> unfortunately that time has never come.
> Oh and by the way, I do not believe every company needs a union. There
> still are some good companies out there who truely believe and
> practice your last example. Those do not need unions. But to the many
> others out there who do not give a shit about there employees, the
> labor rules, the enviroment etc they need a union.

Companies that are union-free do better business, treat their employees
better, and generally have better quality products.  Union shops are more
likely to build crap than non-union shops.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
What have YOU done to bust a union today?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Work better: Work union-free.

Steven C. Britton
Calgary

www.cadvision.com/sbritton



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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: jenuths@homacjen.ab.ca                            15-Dec-99 23:14:01
  To: All                                               15-Dec-99 21:17:21
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: jenuths@homacjen.ab.ca

In can.politics Alan Baker <Alan_Baker@bc.sympatico.ca> wrote:

> Except, of course, for the fact that there is no way to guarantee that a 
> future government might change the benefits the plan will pay out. If 
> down the road the feds decide they need the money you may find that you 
> may not be getting the pension you expected and paid for.

Perhaps.  But then that is really up to the provincial governments who
control this sort of thing.

As you know, the federal government does not unilaterally decide the
payouts or the premiums.

-- 
Best regards,

Stephen Jenuth
(jenuths@homacjen.ab.ca)

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: cbass2112@my-deja.com                             15-Dec-99 22:38:14
  To: All                                               15-Dec-99 21:17:21
Subj: Re: When will it be 100% done?

From: cbass2112@my-deja.com

In article <3857b22b$6$obot$mr2ice@news.pics.com>,
  Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com> wrote:

-- snip --

> Headers do not prove a single thing.  My 10 year old grandchildren
> can post messages on my machine. They cannot set up Warp or make
> changes to it. Any 10 year old can click on an icon and enter a
> message regardless of the OS involved.

Well, at least you're finally acknowledging that Marty does *use* OS/2,
your attempts at trivialization notwithstanding.  Also, you are wrong
about the headers not proving anything -- they prove the following to be
blatantly groundless:

"Bullshit. You are a liar about so many things, I don't believe you use
or are capable of using OS/2."  Germer -- 12/12/1999


Curtis


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: wayne@SPAM.tkb.att.ne.jp                          16-Dec-99 07:22:06
  To: All                                               15-Dec-99 21:17:21
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: "Wayne Bickell" <wayne@SPAM.tkb.att.ne.jp>

On Wed, 15 Dec 1999 21:38:45 GMT, weiss@tds.net wrote:

:>Considering how even IBM has dropped development for Warp client and there
is
:>no reasonably sized client market left for OS/2, why should any company
:>develop for OS/2 unless  profit is meaningless?
:>
:>It's a sad fact. We OS/2 users can use the client OS but there's little
:>incentive anymore to develop for it.

It's also a sad fact that in this situation one doesn't want to spend
any more money on OS/2 software. It seems like throwing good
money after bad :-(

Cheers

Wayne (big sigh!)

******************************************************
Wayne Bickell
Tokyo, Japan
wayne@tkb.att.ne.jp
******************************************************
           Posted with PMINews 2 for OS/2
  Running on OS/2 Warp 4 (UK)  + FixPak 9
******************************************************



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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: donnelly@tampabay.rr.com                          16-Dec-99 00:26:04
  To: All                                               15-Dec-99 21:17:21
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: donnelly@tampabay.rr.com (Buddy Donnelly)

On Wed, 15 Dec 1999 22:22:12, "Wayne Bickell" 
<wayne@SPAM.tkb.att.ne.jp> wrote:

> On Wed, 15 Dec 1999 21:38:45 GMT, weiss@tds.net wrote:
> 
> :>Considering how even IBM has dropped development for Warp client and there 
is
> :>no reasonably sized client market left for OS/2, why should any company
> :>develop for OS/2 unless  profit is meaningless?
> :>
> :>It's a sad fact. We OS/2 users can use the client OS but there's little
> :>incentive anymore to develop for it.
> 
> It's also a sad fact that in this situation one doesn't want to spend
> any more money on OS/2 software. It seems like throwing good
> money after bad :-(

Except the rare exception, like paying for new instalments of 
well-used software, like getting Nick Knight a few more Xmas checks 
(mine's on the way tonite) for his MR2 update.


-- 

Good luck,

Buddy

Buddy Donnelly
donnelly@tampabay.rr.com


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: jglatt@spamgone-borg.com                          16-Dec-99 02:00:21
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 00:43:20
Subj: Re: When will it be 100% done?

From: jglatt@spamgone-borg.com (Jeff Glatt)

>>Boob Germer
>>You just defined yourself to a "T".

>Marty
>Is that the best you can do?  At least PeeWee Herman did it with more
>class ("I know you are but what am I?")

I'll bet that Pee Wee Herman also has more computer "clients" than
Boob does.

Boob's "Big Adventure" in being a "computer consultant" appears to be
as much of a fantasy as any Hollywood movie

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: jimf@frostbytes.com                               15-Dec-99 21:18:25
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 00:43:20
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Jim Frost <jimf@frostbytes.com>

Bob Germer wrote:
> On <3856F2D8.7C53D352@ibm.net>, on 12/14/99 at 08:46 PM,
>    Joseph <josco@ibm.net> said:
> 
> > Defending MS against left wingers?  Who!?! I never thought of SUN's
> > Scott McNealy as a liberal let alone a jealous left winger.  I bet he'd
> > laugh at that slurr being his father was a GM auto exec.  MS's enemies
> > are conservative corporations in say Utah and companies owned by
> > billionaires like Larry Ellison and Soctt McNealy.
> > It's all about money and power between wealthy and powerful
> > people.
> 
> Those who refuse to learn from history are condemned to repeat it. Your
> argument above was the crux of the defense raised by AT&T. It wasn't valid
> then. It isn't valid now.

While you might have a point with a different analogy, the breakup of AT&T was
consentual (ie AT&T wanted to be broken up).  The idea was that 90% of the
cost of doing business was local and 90% of the profit was long-distance.  The
thing they didn't expect was regionalization of the default long-distance
carrier; they figured they'd get the long-distance business pretty much lock,
stock, and barrel and it'd be up to the other companies to take it away from
them.

It didn't work out that way, but you gotta admire the way they managed the
breakup such that they got all kinds of concessions while spinning off the
expensive part of doing business even if they didn't get the whole ball of
wax.

jim

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: jimf@frostbytes.com                               15-Dec-99 21:30:18
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 00:43:20
Subj: Re: do you have OS/2 1.1?

From: Jim Frost <jimf@frostbytes.com>

> : Not even close.  GEM existed by then, as did Windows 2, and there were
about
> : half a dozen PC UNIXen with X11 support by then (I used three of them). 
So
> : not only did the PC have OSs with GUIs, it even had them with fully
> : distributed GUIs -- something OS/2 can't claim even today.
> 
> I'm not sure I would call X11 a "GUI". At least in my books (and probably
> many others), X11 or X-Windows is strictly a window manager. It doesn't do
> anything but exactly that, manage your windows. It's got window frames,
> and it's got icons, but you can't do anything with those icons, just
> minimize and maximize. Now slap on GNOME or KDE on top of that, now you
> have a GUI.

Strictly speaking X11 is just a remote rendering system.  The rest are
applications.  A window manager application does a lot of what you expect from
a GUI (frames around the windows, icon management, and such).  A collection of
tools and libraries makes up the rest.  X11 of course had all of that (and by
1988 had a whole bunch of different window managers) albeit a bit clunky and
ugly.  "Just minimize and maximize" was pretty much what you'd get from uwm,
but awm and twm and a handful of others were a lot more functional.  There was
even a funky lisp-based window manager.

> And why is it so important to be the first PC with a GUI? Even though
> other computers had it. Remember Atari ST machines? The Amiga?
> Heck, maybe those of you old enough will remember Commodore-64's running
> with GEOS!

I sure do remember GEOS, and the ST, and the Amiga.  The ST was
super-interesting because it was a terrific MIDI control system.  I had a
friend who called it "the poor man's Mac".  Honestly I thought the Amiga was
better done.  The Apple IIgs was out around that time as I remember too;
wasn't that ProDOS with a GUI shell?  I also remember the Lisa, it died the
death it deserved (though not as quickly or spectacularly as the Apple ///). 
Never saw an Alto or Star though.

jim

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: jimf@frostbytes.com                               15-Dec-99 21:36:06
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 00:43:20
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: Jim Frost <jimf@frostbytes.com>

Kim Cheung wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 15 Dec 1999 08:25:17 -0500, Jim Frost wrote:
> 
> >Kim Cheung wrote:
> >> >This is a great idea. Have you done any projections on "in the home"
cost of
> >> >implementing Concorde? As I see it, it looks a bit expensive.
[...]
> >If the cost is going to be in the, say, $300 range one wonders why you
> >wouldn't just buy a whole other machine to run Windows.  It's not like it'd
> >cost a lot more (or, probably, any more at all once you got done buying
> >Windows and the basic application suite retail versus getting it bundled).
> >
> >Or, more generally: What's the point of an expensive software solution when
> >hardware is so cheap?
> 
> Why?   Because for the enterprise, the cost of the hardware is not the issue
> here.   Imagine having 64,000 desktops that has to have 2 monitors, 2
> computers, and so forth.   The TCO for ONE desktop is high enough - now you
> need to double that?

As I read it, they were asking about using it "in the home".  For "in the
corporation" I agree with you (that multiple boxes are bad), and in fact I'd
suggest that you toss the OS/2 boxes because you can get all the same software
on Windows and a whole lot more without the funky bridging stuff.

COO for NT is way lower than either OS/2 or Win9x (you can easily lock down
the configuration against changes, deliberate or accidental); it's a really
viable corporate system at this point and still way cheaper than this product.

> Besides, the two "brains" will be communicating with each other at PCI bus
> speed: not network speed.   We intend to make it as seamless as possible to
> the point where it will be pretty much like a Win-OS/2 session within OS/2.

More power to you.  You're gonna need it, no such product has ever succeeded
in the market, and OS/2 is a lot less healthy than others before it.

jim

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         16-Dec-99 02:50:18
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 00:43:20
Subj: Re: do you have OS/2 1.1?

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Jim Frost writes:

>>> So not only did the PC have OSs with GUIs, it even had them with fully
>>> distributed GUIs -- something OS/2 can't claim even today.
 
>> I guess that depends on what you call a "fully distributed" GUI.  There
>> is a product that will let you see the OS/2 desktop with a web browser.
>> That means you can run your OS/2 desktop from UNIX, for example.

> I stand corrected.
>
> In any case the claim that OS/2 1.1 was the first GUI-equipped OS for
> the PC was dead wrong.

But there's the old argument about what constitutes an "OS".

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           15-Dec-99 10:15:24
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 02:11:08
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <3856a483_4@news.cadvision.com>, on 12/14/99 at 01:11 PM,
   "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com> said:

> That's what happens when there's lots of jobs and few people to fill
> them. Companies have to make it worth the applicant's while to take the
> job.

> When there's lots of people and few jobs, applicants have to make it
> worth the company's while to take them.

> That's what reality is all about.

That is the basis of a Capitalistic economy, the most favorable system yet
invented by the minds of men.


--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           15-Dec-99 10:19:22
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 02:11:08
Subj: Re: When will it be 100% done?

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <3856DB99.70915764@stny.rr.com>, on 12/14/99 at 07:06 PM,
   Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> said:

> For your information, there's a difference between being "politically
> correct" and taking exception to obvious prejudicial statements, Boob. 
> Prejudice is an attempt by ignorant beings with inferiority complexes to
> make themselves feel better.  It allows them to construct vast fantasy
> worlds in which they are "on top" and everyone else is inferior or
> subordinate to them.  Thankfully reality does not resemble these fantasy
> worlds in the slightest.

You just defined yourself to a "T". You are truly an prejudiced idiot with
no resemblance to reality in your posts.


--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------

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From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           15-Dec-99 10:20:24
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 02:11:08
Subj: Re: When will it be 100% done?

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <3856D9EF.1891A66F@stny.rr.com>, on 12/14/99 at 06:59 PM,
   Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> said:

> Have you checked my headers yet or are you going to keep making a
> jackass out of yourself?  Amazing how you can keep denying facts to
> preserve your dreamworld.  It surpasses even Tholen's idiocy.

Headers do not prove a single thing. My 10 year old grandchildren can post
messages on my machine. They cannot set up Warp or make changes to it. Any
10 year old can click on an icon and enter a message regardless of the OS
involved.




--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           15-Dec-99 10:23:02
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 02:11:08
Subj: Re: When will it be 100% done?

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <065f8722.91fc528a@usw-ex0101-004.remarq.com>, on 12/14/99 at 04:02 PM,
   nobody <cbass2112NOcbSPAM@my-deja.com.invalid> said:

> And I observe that one could make a case that the currect DOJ action is
> being done on the behalf of "inferior [businesses] unable to compete in
> the world of [business] to stifle those who can."

You can do whatever you want. That it will have no more validity than a
Canuck's views on the DOJ suit have standing doesn't stop you from
confirming that you are an ignoramus.

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: drsmithy@usa.net                                  16-Dec-99 02:00:20
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 02:11:08
Subj: Re: Jury scheduled to hear Caldera vs. Microsoft next January

From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

"Chad Myers" <cmyers@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:836kga$i3r$1@news.jump.net...
> Perhaps Killfile in OS/2 is intermittent and
> sketchy, kinda like user interface and stability in
> said OS?

I won't say the stability in OS/2 is particularly good (IME it's
nowher near as good as NT) but the UI is top notch.  I still consider
WPS to be one of the best GUIs I've ever used.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.2 for non-commercial use <http://www.pgp.com>

iQA/AwUBOFcuiNIiOnIFzdsOEQJaxACffpKxGQKOkCef67wj17UOkYbJiQgAoNsn
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=ssAN
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu                15-Dec-99 10:56:25
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 02:11:08
Subj: Re: Dimsdale digest, volume 2451514

From: tholenbot <tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu>

In article <38573CC6.D9A33756@stny.rr.com>, Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> 
wrote:

> Eric Bennett wrote (using a pseudonym again):

What alleged "pseudonym", Marty?

> > 
> > In article <38573242.9067CFC5@stny.rr.com>, Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>
> > wrote:
> > 
> > > Eric Bennett wrote (using a pseudonym again):
> > > >
> > > > In article <3856FA01.70DADCB1@stny.rr.com>, Marty 
> > > > <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Eric Bennett wrote (using a pseudonym again):
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >, as you predictably deleted my answer to the
> > > > > > > question for your own entertainment purposes.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Illogical, given that there wasn't any answer for me to have
> > > > > > deleted.
> > > > > > Seeing things that aren't there again, Chris?
> > > > >
> > > > > How ironic, coming from the person who admitted to wearing dirty
> > > > > glasses
> > > >
> > > > What alleged admission, Marty?
> > >
> > > I see that you, once again, felt the need to destroy the context of 
> > > my
> > > post.
> > 
> > Seeing things that aren't there again, Marty?
> 
> How ironic, coming from the person who admitted to wearing dirty glasses.

Argument by repetitive unsubstantiated claims, Marty?  How predictable.

> > > Here is what I originally wrote back:
> > 
> > Illogical.
> 
> Not at all, Eric.  More evidence of your reading comprehension problems. 
> Perhaps if you'd respond to what I wrote instead of what you wanted me to 
> write
> you'd have less trouble comprehending it.

See what I mean?

> > > M] How ironic, coming from the person who admitted to wearing dirty
> > > glasses.
> > >
> > > Perhaps if you'd respond to what I wrote instead of what you wanted 
> > > me to
> > > write you'd have less trouble comprehending it
> > 
> > I see you didn't answer the question, Marty.  How predictable.  Where 
> > is
> > the alleged admission of wearing dirty glasses, Marty?  Why, nowhere to
> > be seen!
> 
> I see that you, once again, felt the need to destroy the context of my 
> post. 
> Here is what I originally wrote back:
> 
> M] Perhaps if you'd respond to what I wrote instead of what you wanted me
> M] to write you'd have less trouble comprehending it.
> 
> Perhaps if you'd respond to what I wrote instead of what you wanted me to 
> write
> you'd have less trouble comprehending it.

I see you didn't answer the question, Marty.  How predictable.  Where 
is the alleged admission of wearing dirty glasses, Marty?  Why, nowhere 
to
be seen!

-- 
I do not 'approve' phrases.
-Dave Tholen

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: ericb@pobox.com                                   15-Dec-99 11:01:17
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 02:11:08
Subj: Re: do you have OS/2 1.1?

From: Eric Bennett <ericb@pobox.com>

In article <8T3V4odSRgYO089yn@ibm.net>, James Knott <jknott@ca.ibm.com> 
wrote:

> In article <837hgj$6so$1@news.hawaii.edu>,
> tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen) wrote:
> >Jim Frost writes:
> >
> >> So not only did the PC have OSs with GUIs, it even had them with fully
> >> distributed GUIs -- something OS/2 can't claim even today.
> >
> >I guess that depends on what you call a "fully distributed" GUI.  There
> >is a product that will let you see the OS/2 desktop with a web browser.
> >That means you can run your OS/2 desktop from UNIX, for example.
> >
> 
> It's called "Desktop on Call".  There are OS/2, Linux and even Windows
> versions of it.  It does work, but is *SLOW*, even when running 
> Netscape on a Pentium 150 on a 16 Mb token ring lan, with both 
> computers on the same desk.  It's really strange to see the desktop 
> change almost instantly on the remote system and watch the same info 
> slowly appear on the local computer.

VNC has also been ported to OS/2.  I have not used that version, but I 
use VNC extensively on Digital Unix and Mac OS, and it is much faster 
than what you describe for Desktop on Call (I run it over 10baseT).

-- 
Eric Bennett ( http://www.pobox.com/~ericb/ ) 
Cornell University / Chemistry & Chemical Biology

I have no idea what you're talking about when you say 'ask'.
-Bill Gates, in his deposition in US v. Microsoft

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: fegehrke@worldnet.att.net                         15-Dec-99 11:18:08
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 02:11:08
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Forrest Gehrke <fegehrke@worldnet.att.net>

Bob Germer wrote:
> 
> The lowest price I ever paid for gasoline was 22 cents a gallon in 1957.
> That is eqivalent to approximately $1.25 today. It took 10 gallons in 1957
> to go 100 miles in an un-air conditioned car with no power steering, no
> power brakes, etc. Today, less money takes me 250 miles in air conditioned
> comfort with power everything.
> 
Heh! Since I am older than even your advanced age I remember
buying gas 7 gallons for a dollar in the 1930's. You even got 
a nice water glass or could collect the pieces of kitchen
ware with each purchase.

And BTW, a Ford or Chevrolet set you back $495 list. Of course,
you counted yourself a fortunate fellow with a job paying
30 cents an hour (the legal minimum wage; in 1938 Congress
raised it to 32 cents per hour. Bonanza, almost a 7% raise!). 
//

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From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               15-Dec-99 12:27:10
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 02:11:08
Subj: Re: When will it be 100% done?

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Bob Germer wrote:
> 
> On <3856DB99.70915764@stny.rr.com>, on 12/14/99 at 07:06 PM,
>    Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> said:
> 
> > For your information, there's a difference between being "politically
> > correct" and taking exception to obvious prejudicial statements, Boob.
> > Prejudice is an attempt by ignorant beings with inferiority complexes to
> > make themselves feel better.  It allows them to construct vast fantasy
> > worlds in which they are "on top" and everyone else is inferior or
> > subordinate to them.  Thankfully reality does not resemble these fantasy
> > worlds in the slightest.
> 
> You just defined yourself to a "T".

Is that the best you can do?  At least PeeWee Herman did it with more
class ("I know you are but what am I?")

> You are truly an prejudiced idiot with no resemblance to reality in your
posts.

I have provided evidence of your prejudice and the reasons why your
fairy tales attempting to explain them away were false.  You respond
with a half-witted counter-accusation and nothing to back it up.  No
surprise there.

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From: kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com               15-Dec-99 09:27:23
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 02:11:08
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: "Kim Cheung" <kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com>

On Wed, 15 Dec 1999 08:25:17 -0500, Jim Frost wrote:

>Kim Cheung wrote:
>> >This is a great idea. Have you done any projections on "in the home" cost
of
>> >implementing Concorde? As I see it, it looks a bit expensive.
>> 
>> "Expensive" is always a relative term - of course.
>> 
>> The "in the home" cost will be determined purely by the qty produced and
>> that's why we wanted to get some sense of that using a survey.    I would
say
>> you shouldn't expect it to be less than a "few" hundred dollars.
>
>Keeping in mind that I wasn't able to find any information at all on Concorde
>looking at Serenity Systems' website:
>
>If the cost is going to be in the, say, $300 range one wonders why you
>wouldn't just buy a whole other machine to run Windows.  It's not like it'd
>cost a lot more (or, probably, any more at all once you got done buying
>Windows and the basic application suite retail versus getting it bundled).
>
>Or, more generally: What's the point of an expensive software solution when
>hardware is so cheap?
>

Why?   Because for the enterprise, the cost of the hardware is not the issue
here.   Imagine having 64,000 desktops that has to have 2 monitors, 2
computers, and so forth.   The TCO for ONE desktop is high enough - now you
need to double that?

Besides, the two "brains" will be communicating with each other at PCI bus
speed: not network speed.   We intend to make it as seamless as possible to
the point where it will be pretty much like a Win-OS/2 session within OS/2.





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From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               15-Dec-99 12:22:25
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 02:11:08
Subj: Re: When will it be 100% done?

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Bob Germer wrote:
> 
> On <3856D9EF.1891A66F@stny.rr.com>, on 12/14/99 at 06:59 PM,
>    Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> said:
> 
> > Have you checked my headers yet or are you going to keep making a
> > jackass out of yourself?  Amazing how you can keep denying facts to
> > preserve your dreamworld.  It surpasses even Tholen's idiocy.
> 
> Headers do not prove a single thing.

They prove that I have been using an OS/2 machine for the last 5 years,
which is more than your baseless accusations can counter.

> My 10 year old grandchildren can post messages on my machine.

And they are probably quite a bit more coherent than yours.

> They cannot set up Warp or make changes to it.

Why not?  Have you ever let them try?  It's not a very difficult thing.

> Any 10 year old can click on an icon and enter a message regardless of the
> OS involved.

Or anyone with the mentality of one, as you have proven.  Save your
fairy tales for your 10 year old, Boob.  I am not only an OS/2 user, but
an OS/2 freeware programmer, and have been for several years now (your
baseless accusations and fairy tales notwithstanding).  I've provided
more than adequate evidence to support this fact, which you have
conveniently ignored at best, and have run away from time and time
again.  You have provided no evidence to the contrary.  I guess we can
all see the value of your statements and anecdotes now.

Setting up OS/2 is not a difficult task.  IBM didn't design it to be a
difficult task.  The fact that you pride yourself on doing something
which is quite trivial speaks volumes of your skill level.  The fact
that you would attack an OS/2 freeware programmer as not having
knowledge of OS/2 speaks volumes about your intelligence.  That's like
telling a heavy weight boxer that he is a wimp to his face -- stupid. 
Bob, I don't know everything about OS/2, but I'd wager that I know more
about the guts of OS/2 than you do, and I'm prepared to prove it.  You,
on the other hand are content to meerly throw around baseless fairy
tales and run away.  I guess I shouldn't be surprised, given your brand
of "advocacy".

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From: sbritton@cadvision.com                            15-Dec-99 10:44:06
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 02:11:08
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com>

PL wrote:
> >
> >People should be responsible for their own pensions.  If the company they
> >work for wants to set up a group pension plan, that's fine too.
Government
> >has no responsibility in the matter.
>
> Totally agree. But is the employer willing to pay the extra wages to
> me so that I could do that?
> Not bloody likely!!

No need.  If the government were to stop taking 10+% in pension plan
premiums, people could invest that money in their own private plans and make
far more return than on the government plan.

> >Don't work for companies that don't keep responsible health and safety
> >codes.  You don't need a union to uphold that.  If nobody works for such
a
> >company, they can't produce; and therefore they disappear.
>
> Absolute bullshit.
> Take your head out of the sand. Alot of the young people don't even
> know what the rules are.

It's their responsibility to educate themselves.

> There are many companies that do not wish to comply with even exsisting
rules.

That's fine.  People shouldn't work for them then.

> So you have the union to ensure that the company does follow the rules.
Government
> does[n't] do anything until after the infraction.

Unions aren't needed for that.  If the company isn't following the rules, it
is in the staff's best interest to seek other employment.  I certainly
wouldn't work for an unsafe or abusive company -- unionized or not.

> >> ... minimum wage standards...
> >
> >Sure!  Minimum wage kills jobs.
> What, trying to turn this country into another Mexico?
> If we allow the business leaders to set some baseline for wages, all
> of our wages would drop down to virtually nothing.

That's not true -- I won't work for less than a certain amount.

> But that's what many businesses would like isn't it?

Businesses pay people what they're worth.  If your statement were true,
everybody in the world would make minimum wage and nothing more -- but I for
one make much more than minimum wage.

> Oh and if it does kill jobs, those jobs aren't worth having aroung
> anyhow!

I didn't say that.  Minimum wage laws actually harm the people they're meant
to help.  If I ran a McDonald's, for example, raising minimum wage would
force me to lay off workers (or at least not expand my workforce), causing
service and quality to drop, and I might be forced out of business -- which
means that EVERYBODY would lose their job.

> >> just cause dismissals ...
> >
> >Unions have nothing to do with that; it's a violation of one's right to
> >liberty because the company, by not dismissing with just cause, is
> >initiating force against the person they're canning.
> You are totally wrong. Without a union how do you fight a wrongful
> dismissal?

You take the company to court like I did.  And I won.

> Alberta Labour?
> Now thas a joke. They will not help.
> Take them to court?
> How many workers could afford that? Lawyers want money up front (Lots
> of it)

Not all lawyers.  There's legal aid, some lawyers work on a percentage
basis...

there's all kinds of ways.

> Having managed both union and non union locations. Union shops are by
> far easier to manage. Ever fired a union worker? I have, when it
> became nessesary due to lack of preformance. Follow the rules and it
> is easy. And to boot no wrongful dismissal suite.
> So what are you afraid ?? Might have to pay higher wages? or benefits?
> make the work place safer?

I'm not afraid of any of that: because in that situation, I'd ensure that I
had an extremely safe workplace (which exceeded the safety standards by a
long shot), pay people what they're worth (which, when they're good, can be
far higher than a union would get), and give good benefits.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
What have YOU done to bust a union today?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Work better: Work union-free.

Steven C. Britton
Calgary

www.cadvision.com/sbritton



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From: Fam.Traeger@t-online.de                           15-Dec-99 18:49:09
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 02:11:08
Subj: Re: Windows 1.0 was running in 1983, Mac appeared in 1984 

From: Fam.Traeger@t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?=)

Roger <roger@.> wrote:

> On Mon, 13 Dec 1999 16:29:31 +0100, someone claiming to be Lars Tr„ger
> wrote:
> 
> >Roger <roger@.> wrote:
> 
> >> reported until several years later.  Patterson wrote Q-DOS as a CP/M
> >> clone, to ease the porting of applications from that OS, and
> 
> >Porting from which OS (CP/M?) to what?
> 
> CP/M to Q-DOS.

Well, writing an OS actually also makes it easier to write new software
for it ;-)

Lars T.

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From: sbritton@cadvision.com                            15-Dec-99 10:52:28
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 02:11:08
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com>

Ed Letourneau foamed:
>
> You heard it!

Yes.  I heard it.

> With the rantings we have from you so far my first guess is
> that you either heard an anti-union editorial or you only heard the parts
> you liked or you dreamed it.

You're a closed-minded bigot.

> >> >I'm secure enough to know that what I'm saying is true.
>
> So prove it.

I don't need to any further.  It's true.  I've provided references for
everything I've talked about.  630 CHED, and various newspapers.

> >1.  I don't work for an ISP.
> >2.  I _am_ a CEO
> >3.  I don't _have_ to deliver any URLs.  The information is readily
> >available to those smart enough to find it.
> >4.  You're an idiot.
>
> I've called you a lier in public.

Yes; you have.  You're wrong.  You're also not worth any more time than I'm
giving you already.  You're giving yourself far too much credit and value.

> So far all you're done to defend yourself is rant on about its true and
me. Not very impressive. If you are
> a CEO then show us your stuff. Unless of course if just bullshit.

I own my own private business.  Therefore, I am a CEO.

> >Yes:  It's lunacy.  You don't pay people based on collectiveness.  You
> >pay them based on merit.
>
> So you have people doing the same job and receiving different pay.  --

Yep.  Some people do it better than others, and therefore are worth more.

People get paid based on the value they bring.

> Must be some dumbass union guy got the better of you somewhere along the
> line.

I've never worked in a union shop; and I never will.

> >What about them?  They're beaurocrats.  Canada Post is a Crown
> >Corporation.
>
> Can't work well with others huh?  -- You said that you could have
> increased earings at Saveway several times over. Now as more of your
> personality emerges, you want us to believe that you could have managed
> the prise and wouldn't need anyone else to manage it.

I work extremely well with others.  I don't know where you get what you say
from what I've said; because the connection just doesn't exist.

More proof of your idiocy.

> >You obviously can't read newspapers.  The Ontario Election was a massive
> >union goon battleground.
>
> I don't read Canadian newspapers. What makes you think I would want to?

You wanted proof.  Read up.

> -- If you're a real CEO then you ought to have enough respect for yourself
> to stand up and not let me call you a two-bit lier in front of the world.

I can't stop you from calling me a liar; and this isn't "in front of the
world".  This is the usenet.

And nobody of value takes _you_ seriously.

> Where are the URLs with the stories to prove your point?

Do you yahoo?

If not, do it.

> >> Someone with real CEO material on their shoulders would step up to the
> >challenge and show us
> >> something more then whining and sniveling.
> >Someone with half a brain cell in their head would be able to research
> >the material and see that it's true.
>
> Again, if you had any self respect you wouldn't let me call you a lier. --
> I already looked. If you can prove your claim then do it. Otherwise you're
> a lier so shutup.

This coming from someone who can't even spell the word?  HA!

> >The campaign was in 1998.  The Ontario Newspapers were the Toronto Star
> >(pro-union, by the way), Hamilton Spectator, Toronto Sun, Globe and Mail,
> >Ottawa Citizen.
>
> I think anyone who claims to be a CEO ought to have enough brains to prove
> me wrong in short order. So when are you going to grow some balls and lead
> us right to it.

No need.  The papers have web sites.  If you can't figure out how to get to
them, you're pretty damn stupid.

Not surprising, really...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
What have YOU done to bust a union today?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Work better: Work union-free.

Steven C. Britton
Calgary

www.cadvision.com/sbritton



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From: sbritton@cadvision.com                            15-Dec-99 10:53:28
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 02:11:08
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com>

Ed Letourneau wrote:

<drivel>

You have become boring.

Killfile time.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
What have YOU done to bust a union today?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Work better: Work union-free.

Steven C. Britton
Calgary

www.cadvision.com/sbritton



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From: mike@lionsgate.com                                15-Dec-99 18:01:24
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 02:11:08
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: mike@lionsgate.com (Mike Stephen)

In message
<xvzjnvpfcnztbgbtneontrqrygnargpbz.fmrga90.pminews@news.pacbell.net> -
"Kim Cheung" <kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com>Tue, 14 Dec 1999
21:30:09 -0500 (EST) writes:
:>
:>On Tue, 14 Dec 1999 17:25:23 -0500, Jerry McBride wrote:
:>
:>>Hi Kim,
:>>
:>>This is a great idea. Have you done any projections on "in the home" cost
of
:>>implementing Concorde? As I see it, it looks a bit expensive.
:>
:>"Expensive" is always a relative term - of course.
:>
:>The "in the home" cost will be determined purely by the qty produced and
:>that's why we wanted to get some sense of that using a survey.    I would
say
:>you shouldn't expect it to be less than a "few" hundred dollars.
:>
:>Did you logon?   If so, go to that site that's referenced.   They have SRP
:>pricing for what they do.
:>
:>
:>
:>
:>


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From: sbritton@cadvision.com                            15-Dec-99 11:03:01
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 02:11:08
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com>

Bob Germer wrote:

> > I never said that Microsoft wasn't breaking the law.  I said that the
> > laws were wrong, and I said that Microsoft had done nothing wrong.
>
> If MicroSoft broke the laws, which you acknowledge they did, then by
> definition they did wrong. You cannot have it any other way in the real
> world.

I guess you're just too closed-minded to see that laws can, in fact, be
unjust, which means that someone doing something perfectly ethical can in
fact be breaking the law.

In other words, one can break the anti-trust laws without actually doing
anything wrong.

> > When the laws are tyrannical, and their victims realize that they can't
> > do anything about them because the system is so jealous of their success
> > that they're going to find against them anyway, the best course of
> > action is to cut one's losses as best one can.
>
> And the way to do that is to comply with the laws until one can LEGALLY
> effect a change in said law.

One would expect that if one is doing business ethically (which Microsoft
was), one wouldn't be breaking any laws in the process.

> > If I were Bill, I'd retire; take my money, and move to the Cayman
> > Islands and live out the rest of my life in tax-free comfort; raising my
> > middle finger to the collective lunacy of the jealous left wing
>
> He wouldn't have much to live on if he did. The US would seize his assets
> here and he wouldn't see a penny.

How tyrannical.  Another reason why I'll never move to the US -- not that
it'll disappoint you.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
What have YOU done to bust a union today?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Work better: Work union-free.

Steven C. Britton
Calgary

www.cadvision.com/sbritton



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From: cbass2112@my-deja.com                             15-Dec-99 17:35:26
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 02:11:08
Subj: Re: Amodeo digest, volume 2451526

From: cbass2112@my-deja.com

In article <832kh7$e2c$1@news.hawaii.edu>,
  tholenantispam@hawaii.edu wrote:

-- snip --

> "Is it because of your sex life that you are going through all of
> this?"
>
> I warned you about going down that path, Marty.

-- snip --

> "Is it because of your sex life that you are going through all of
> this?"
>
> I warned you about going down that path, Marty.

-- snip --

> "Is it because of your sex life that you are going through all of
> this?"
>
> I warned you about going down that path, Marty.

Apparently, this is Tholen's automated, knee-jerk response to just about
anything Marty may say.  And Tholen has the gall to whine about others
wasting bandwidth.

Score another point for Dave and his hypocrisy.


Curtis


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

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From: sbritton@cadvision.com                            15-Dec-99 11:04:13
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 02:11:08
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com>

Bob Germer wrote:
>
> > That's what reality is all about.
>
> That is the basis of a Capitalistic economy, the most favorable system yet
> invented by the minds of men.

That is the basis of REALITY; the only system that exists.  It was not
invented by the minds of men: it is just the way the world works.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
What have YOU done to bust a union today?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Work better: Work union-free.

Steven C. Britton
Calgary

www.cadvision.com/sbritton



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From: cbass2112@my-deja.com                             15-Dec-99 18:00:06
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 02:11:08
Subj: Re: When will it be 100% done?

From: cbass2112@my-deja.com

In article <3857b28c$7$obot$mr2ice@news.pics.com>,
  Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com> wrote:
> On <065f8722.91fc528a@usw-ex0101-004.remarq.com>, on 12/14/99 at 04:02
PM,
>    nobody <cbass2112NOcbSPAM@my-deja.com.invalid> said:
>
> > And I observe that one could make a case that the currect DOJ action
> > is being done on the behalf of "inferior [businesses] unable to
> > compete in the world of [business] to stifle those who can."
>
> You can do whatever you want. That it will have no more validity than
> a Canuck's views on the DOJ suit have standing doesn't stop you from
> confirming that you are an ignoramus.

Of course, you missed the point, degenerating to the use of invective in
the process.

You sanctimoniously whined about political correctness, and how it
"stifled" verbal geniuses such as yourself; I simply applied your own
language in defense of something else with which you seem to disagree.
If you look closely at what I said, you would notice that I never
claimed anything wrt to the DOJ case.


Curtis


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

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From: donnelly@tampabay.rr.com                          15-Dec-99 18:22:18
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 02:11:08
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: donnelly@tampabay.rr.com (Buddy Donnelly)

On Wed, 15 Dec 1999 11:18:16, Forrest Gehrke 
<fegehrke@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

> Bob Germer wrote:
> > 
> > The lowest price I ever paid for gasoline was 22 cents a gallon in 1957.
> > That is eqivalent to approximately $1.25 today. It took 10 gallons in 1957
> > to go 100 miles in an un-air conditioned car with no power steering, no
> > power brakes, etc. Today, less money takes me 250 miles in air conditioned
> > comfort with power everything.
> > 
> Heh! Since I am older than even your advanced age I remember
> buying gas 7 gallons for a dollar in the 1930's. You even got 
> a nice water glass or could collect the pieces of kitchen
> ware with each purchase.
> 
> And BTW, a Ford or Chevrolet set you back $495 list. Of course,
> you counted yourself a fortunate fellow with a job paying
> 30 cents an hour (the legal minimum wage; in 1938 Congress
> raised it to 32 cents per hour. Bonanza, almost a 7% raise!). 

You're claiming that our Free-Trade U.S. Capitalists (of that Golden 
Era The Thirties) had to be forced, by Act Of Congress, to pay their 
workers as little as 30 cents an hour? 

You're trying to make us believe they weren't all clamoring to fork 
over 30 cents per hour per hard-working man out of the goodness of 
their hearts, or sense of social fairness? 

What church did they take their families to, on Sunday? What religion 
were they? They couldn't have been Christ-ians, right?


-- 

Good luck,

Buddy

Buddy Donnelly
donnelly@tampabay.rr.com


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From: letoured@nospam.net                               15-Dec-99 13:52:16
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 02:11:08
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: letoured@nospam.net

Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com> said:


>You have become boring.
>Killfile time.

Its about what I expected since you're a lier (you started off with your
foot in your mouth and then kept it up) and you either don't have the guts
to admit it or the brains to prove me wrong.

_____________
Ed Letourneau <letoured@sover.net>

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From: isaacl@jazz.ece.ubc.ca                            15-Dec-99 19:41:00
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 02:11:09
Subj: Re: do you have OS/2 1.1?

From: isaacl@jazz.ece.ubc.ca (e-frog)

Jim Frost (jimf@frostbytes.com) wrote:
: Nino wrote:
: > But OS/2 1.1 was maybe the most important OS/2
: > version ever : it's most important feature was PM, Presentation Manager,
: > fast
: > and reliable, that we still use today when running Warp.

: Fast and reliable?  Not that 1st version of PM!  It took them another two
: tries to stabilize it.

: > OS/2 1.1 is
: > thus the first operating system for PC with a GUI,

: Not even close.  GEM existed by then, as did Windows 2, and there were about
: half a dozen PC UNIXen with X11 support by then (I used three of them).  So
: not only did the PC have OSs with GUIs, it even had them with fully
: distributed GUIs -- something OS/2 can't claim even today.

I'm not sure I would call X11 a "GUI". At least in my books (and probably
many others), X11 or X-Windows is strictly a window manager. It doesn't do
anything but exactly that, manage your windows. It's got window frames, 
and it's got icons, but you can't do anything with those icons, just
minimize and maximize. Now slap on GNOME or KDE on top of that, now you
have a GUI.

And why is it so important to be the first PC with a GUI? Even though
other computers had it. Remember Atari ST machines? The Amiga?
Heck, maybe those of you old enough will remember Commodore-64's running
with GEOS!


Isaac

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From: jenuths@homacjen.ab.ca                            15-Dec-99 19:53:23
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 02:11:09
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: jenuths@homacjen.ab.ca

In can.politics Steven C. Britton <sbritton@cadvision.com> wrote:

> No need.  If the government were to stop taking 10+% in pension plan
> premiums, people could invest that money in their own private plans and make
> far more return than on the government plan.

Perhaps a brief reality check.

What is the amount of Canada Pension Plan premiums which are currently
being charged?

Answer:  The rates are on the increase (through a federal/provincial
agreement) and will top out at 9.9% in 2003.

The first $ 3,500 of income is exempt from Canada Pension Plan 
Contributions.  The maximum pensionable earnings is $ 36,900.

This the maximum contribution in 2003 will be $ 3,306.60, or
approximately 8.9% of income for a person earning $ 36,900.  This
payment is born 1/2 by the employer and 1/2 by the employee.

Contribution rates for people earning other than this are significantly
smaller, as is the current contribution rate.

In addition to pension income, the plan provides for disability income
(and is the basis of almost all private sector disability plans), 
survivor benefits (for spouses), orphan benefits (for children), and
a death benefit.

Given the large pool of people in the plan, its rather a bargain.


-- 
Best regards,

Stephen Jenuth
(jenuths@homacjen.ab.ca)

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.

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From: viewme18@hotmail.com                              15-Dec-99 14:04:16
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 02:11:09
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: PL <viewme18@hotmail.com>

On Wed, 15 Dec 1999 10:44:13 -0700, "Steven C. Britton"
<sbritton@cadvision.com> wrote:

>PL wrote:
>> >
>> >People should be responsible for their own pensions.  If the company they
>> >work for wants to set up a group pension plan, that's fine too.
>Government
>> >has no responsibility in the matter.
>>
>> Totally agree. But is the employer willing to pay the extra wages to
>> me so that I could do that?
>> Not bloody likely!!
>
>No need.  If the government were to stop taking 10+% in pension plan
>premiums, people could invest that money in their own private plans and make
>far more return than on the government plan.
>
>> >Don't work for companies that don't keep responsible health and safety
>> >codes.  You don't need a union to uphold that.  If nobody works for such
>a
>> >company, they can't produce; and therefore they disappear.
>>
>> Absolute bullshit.
>> Take your head out of the sand. Alot of the young people don't even
>> know what the rules are.
>
>It's their responsibility to educate themselves.
And by that time some get hurt. 
>
>> There are many companies that do not wish to comply with even exsisting
>rules.
>
>That's fine.  People shouldn't work for them then.
That maybe answer for the well off. But for many they cannot afford to
quit a job and just move to the next one. 

>
>> So you have the union to ensure that the company does follow the rules.
>Government
>> does[n't] do anything until after the infraction.
>
>Unions aren't needed for that.  If the company isn't following the rules, it
>is in the staff's best interest to seek other employment.  I certainly
>wouldn't work for an unsafe or abusive company -- unionized or not.
But the unions do help protect the employee in those situations. Make
that type of company a union shop do the job very well.
If I could not change the company, I also would not work for a unsafe
or abusive company 

>
>> >> ... minimum wage standards...
>> >
>> >Sure!  Minimum wage kills jobs.
>> What, trying to turn this country into another Mexico?
>> If we allow the business leaders to set some baseline for wages, all
>> of our wages would drop down to virtually nothing.
>
>That's not true -- I won't work for less than a certain amount.
I am sure you would not. Nor would I. But there are a again many that
do not have either the education or skills to be picky about how much
they earn. 
>
>> But that's what many businesses would like isn't it?
>
>Businesses pay people what they're worth.  If your statement were true,
>everybody in the world would make minimum wage and nothing more -- but I for
>one make much more than minimum wage.
25 years ago I would have agreed with you. But not now. It use to be
if you worked hard, and proved to your manager that you could handle
extra duties, he usually responded with more money and maybe even a
promotion if you keep it you. 
Generally now they give you a promotion to "working supervisor" just
so they do have to pay overtime. And if there is a pay increase it is
low you have to ask if it is a joke.
I also make much more than minimun wage, but that does not blind me
from the realities of the less fortunate.  
>
>> Oh and if it does kill jobs, those jobs aren't worth having aroung
>> anyhow!
>
>I didn't say that.  Minimum wage laws actually harm the people they're meant
>to help.  If I ran a McDonald's, for example, raising minimum wage would
>force me to lay off workers (or at least not expand my workforce), causing
>service and quality to drop, and I might be forced out of business -- which
>means that EVERYBODY would lose their job.
That maybe so for a very small percentage of business. But if they are
running on such a small margin of profit it would be best if they did
close shop.
>
>> >> just cause dismissals ...
>> >
>> >Unions have nothing to do with that; it's a violation of one's right to
>> >liberty because the company, by not dismissing with just cause, is
>> >initiating force against the person they're canning.
>> You are totally wrong. Without a union how do you fight a wrongful
>> dismissal?
>
>You take the company to court like I did.  And I won.
>
>> Alberta Labour?
>> Now thas a joke. They will not help.
>> Take them to court?
>> How many workers could afford that? Lawyers want money up front (Lots
>> of it)
>
>Not all lawyers.  There's legal aid, some lawyers work on a percentage
>basis...
My daughter has been there and done that. Legal aid will not accept
that type of case and every lawyer we called in Edmonton would not
accept the case without money up front. Do you know why? Because it
was not a $100,000/yr job. That was right from the mouth of one the
lawyers we called. 
So who else to defend the employee when all that fails?
>
>there's all kinds of ways.
>
>> Having managed both union and non union locations. Union shops are by
>> far easier to manage. Ever fired a union worker? I have, when it
>> became nessesary due to lack of preformance. Follow the rules and it
>> is easy. And to boot no wrongful dismissal suite.
>> So what are you afraid ?? Might have to pay higher wages? or benefits?
>> make the work place safer?
>
>I'm not afraid of any of that: because in that situation, I'd ensure that I
>had an extremely safe workplace (which exceeded the safety standards by a
>long shot), pay people what they're worth (which, when they're good, can be
>far higher than a union would get), and give good benefits.
May you would ,but countless others would not. If they were all good
corporate citizens the need for unions would not be needed. But
unfortunately that time has never come.
Oh and by the way, I do not believe every company needs a union. There
still are some good companies out there who truely believe and
practice your last example. Those do not need unions. But to the many
others out there who do not give a shit about there employees, the
labor rules, the enviroment etc they need a union.  





>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>What have YOU done to bust a union today?
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Work better: Work union-free.
>
>Steven C. Britton
>Calgary
>
>www.cadvision.com/sbritton
>
>

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From: letoured@nospam.net                               15-Dec-99 11:17:00
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 02:11:09
Subj: Re: question about OS/2's memory managment and ...

From: letoured@nospam.net

Trancser" <jbergman@ixc.ixc.net> said:

>I hope that (if the OS/2 source code WAS REALLY released ...OR is just
>out there SOMEWHERE) someone out there MIGHT ....be able to DO something
>with it .....and not for another OS either...for OS/2! But do something
>nice with it. Oh well....I'm just hopelessly wishing there.

This is fantasy. OS2 will never be released because there are too many
patents involved and not all of them belong to IBM. -- Besides with what
looks like the oncoming breakup of MS, who knows where anything is going. 


_____________
Ed Letourneau <letoured@sover.net>

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From: Alan_Baker@bc.sympatico.ca                        15-Dec-99 13:18:10
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 02:11:09
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Alan Baker <Alan_Baker@bc.sympatico.ca>

In article <flS54.3836$07.101879@news1.rdc1.ab.home.com>, 
jenuths@homacjen.ab.ca wrote:

>In can.politics Steven C. Britton <sbritton@cadvision.com> wrote:
>
>> No need.  If the government were to stop taking 10+% in pension plan
>> premiums, people could invest that money in their own private plans and 
>> make
>> far more return than on the government plan.
>
>Perhaps a brief reality check.
>
>What is the amount of Canada Pension Plan premiums which are currently
>being charged?
>
>Answer:  The rates are on the increase (through a federal/provincial
>agreement) and will top out at 9.9% in 2003.
>
>The first $ 3,500 of income is exempt from Canada Pension Plan 
>Contributions.  The maximum pensionable earnings is $ 36,900.
>
>This the maximum contribution in 2003 will be $ 3,306.60, or
>approximately 8.9% of income for a person earning $ 36,900.  This
>payment is born 1/2 by the employer and 1/2 by the employee.
>
>Contribution rates for people earning other than this are significantly
>smaller, as is the current contribution rate.
>
>In addition to pension income, the plan provides for disability income
>(and is the basis of almost all private sector disability plans), 
>survivor benefits (for spouses), orphan benefits (for children), and
>a death benefit.
>
>Given the large pool of people in the plan, its rather a bargain.


Except, of course, for the fact that there is no way to guarantee that a 
future government might change the benefits the plan will pay out. If 
down the road the feds decide they need the money you may find that you 
may not be getting the pension you expected and paid for.

-- 
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from that wall to that
wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you sit in the 
bottom of that cupboard."

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From: retsiemynnaht@spammoc.beoohaygon...               15-Dec-99 16:05:15
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 02:11:09
Subj: Re: question about OS/2's memory managment and ...

Message sender: retsiemynnaht@spammoc.beoohaygone.net

From: "Mike Ruskai" <retsiemynnaht@spammoc.beoohaygone.net>

On Wed, 15 Dec 1999 09:51:39 -0500, Marty wrote:

>Trancser wrote:
>> 
>> >
>> >On the surface that would seem to be desirable, but if you're going to
>> >load the program up right away, why did you close it in the first place?
>> >
>> >Of course, if we're talking about command-line programs which terminate
>> >upon completion of the task in question, then it might make a difference.
>> >In that case, it'd be easier for the program author to detach the process
>> >with an expiration time, using IPE to perform when the front-end is called
>> >by the user.  This is what IBM's VACPP compiler does (with an option).
>> >
>> 
>> This (I'm pretty sure) is were a process called "MMAP" (or Memory Map - or
an
>> equaivalant) would come in.
>
>I don't believe current versions of OS/2 support MMapping.  I don't know
>how the VAC compiler does what was described above, but GCC launches a
>separate program (EMXLOAD) which keeps the EMX DLLs, the preprocessor
>(CPP), and optimizing compiler (CC1) loaded and waiting for input.  I
>believe it does this using pipes or message queues.

VACPP does basically the same thing, and uses DDE for communication with
the front end.


--
 - Mike

Remove 'spambegone.net' and reverse to send e-mail.


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: weiss@tds.net                                     15-Dec-99 21:38:22
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 02:11:09
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: weiss@tds.net

In comp.os.os2.advocacy Bob Eager <rde@tavi.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 07:45:35, andrew@netneurotic.de (Andrew J. Brehm) 
> wrote:

>> Why? What's wrong with Innoval?

> This is the company that quietly dropped support for, first, their 
> newsreader, then (not so quietly) BOTH their OS/2 mail clients. 
> Leaving loyal users out in the cold.

Not at all. Innoval made Post Road Mailer and Jstreet available for *free*
after they dropped out. That's pretty darn generous. They didn't have to.

And Jstreet is still being developed at http://www.polarbar.org.

Considering how even IBM has dropped development for Warp client and there is
no reasonably sized client market left for OS/2, why should any company
develop for OS/2 unless  profit is meaningless?

It's a sad fact. We OS/2 users can use the client OS but there's little
incentive anymore to develop for it.

Jeffrey

> -- 
> Bob Eager
> rde at tavi.co.uk
> PC Server 325; PS/2s 8595*3, 9595*3 (2*P60 + P90), 8535, 8570, 9556*2,
> 8580*6,
> 8557*2, 8550, 9577, 8530, P70, PC/AT..

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From: malstrom@yolen.oit.umass.edu                      15-Dec-99 17:06:29
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 02:11:09
Subj: Re: do you have OS/2 1.1?

From: Jason <malstrom@yolen.oit.umass.edu>

In comp.os.os2.advocacy e-frog <isaacl@jazz.ece.ubc.ca> wrote:

: I'm not sure I would call X11 a "GUI". At least in my books (and probably
: many others), X11 or X-Windows is strictly a window manager. It doesn't do
: anything but exactly that, manage your windows. It's got window frames, 
: and it's got icons, but you can't do anything with those icons, just
: minimize and maximize. Now slap on GNOME or KDE on top of that, now you
: have a GUI.

I wouldn't call X Windows a window manager.  It doesn't mininmize, 
mazimize or have icons.  Seperate programs called window managers do 
that.  X is made up of two parts, a server and client.  The client sends 
information about what's inside boxes to an X server.  The X sever 
displays these boxes in different places on your screen.  It also sends 
infomation about the keyboard and mouse back to the programs.  I'm over 
simplyfying it, but that's the general idea from what I can tell.

-Jason

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From: sbritton@cadvision.com                            15-Dec-99 16:02:01
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 02:11:10
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com>

Stephen Untruth wrote:
>
> The rates are on the increase (through a federal/provincial
> agreement) and will top out at 9.9% in 2003.

Largest tax-grab in history.

Also the contribution must be matched by employers.

> The first $ 3,500 of income is exempt from Canada Pension Plan
> Contributions.  The maximum pensionable earnings is $ 36,900.

Oooohh... my heart beats with glee.

> This the maximum contribution in 2003 will be $ 3,306.60, or
> approximately 8.9% of income for a person earning $ 36,900.  This
> payment is born 1/2 by the employer and 1/2 by the employee.

And if the premiums were eliminated, employers and employees could set up
matched plans at the same rate and earn a far better return.

> Contribution rates for people earning other than this are significantly
> smaller, as is the current contribution rate.
>
> In addition to pension income, the plan provides for disability income
> (and is the basis of almost all private sector disability plans),
> survivor benefits (for spouses), orphan benefits (for children), and
> a death benefit.
>
> Given the large pool of people in the plan, its rather a bargain.

Given the nature and way the plan is operated (a national pyramid scam), it
is $600 billion in debt, and on the verge of collapse.  Not even the recent
tax grab will fix it.

Face it, Stephen, your god, Paul Martin, has simply delayed the
inevitable -- and I don't take kindly to my money being forcefully stolen
from me and then wasted -- especially since I'm not going to see a penny of
return in it.

In my lifetime, I will put in tens of thousands of dollars in CPP premiums;
and what do I get when I retire?  A flat income of about $8900 a year -- not
enough to live on.  Not only that, but the rate of return on investment is
about 1.2%, which is far LESS than the 15% I'm doing on my mutual funds
right now.

And you call the CPP a GOOD thing?  OPEN YOUR EYES!

Oh yeah -- you suffer from that terminal psychiatric condition call
Liberalism.  It causes blindness, amongst other things...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
What have YOU done to bust a union today?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Work better: Work union-free.

Steven C. Britton
Calgary

www.cadvision.com/sbritton



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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         16-Dec-99 03:06:00
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 03:34:19
Subj: Re: Navigator 4.7 is available!! OS/2 is behind again!!

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Lucien writes:

>>>>>>>>> Here is the JDK sentence
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 1) "OS/2 Java 1.1.8 implements Java 1.2 functionality. Bummer,
>>>>>>>>> bummer"

>>>>>>>> Pay particular attention to the additional information provided
>>>>>>>> by the reference to Java 1.1.8, Lucien.

>>>>>>> Uninformed response.

>>>>>> Incorrect (see below for why); how ironic.

>>>>>>> There is no grammatical quantifier in this sentence.

>>>>>> There is a logical quantifier in that sentence.

>>>>> ....such that the ambiguity is resolved?

>>>> Yes.

>>> Then one of the two sentences below should be ungrammatical.

>> Illogical, given that lack of ambiguity does not require ungrammatical
>> construction.

> Uninformed response.

Yet another example of your pontification.

> Your contention that the sentence is not underlyingly ambiguous

Where is that alleged contention?

> predicts that one of the sentences should be disallowed; yet, both are
> grammatical.

You're presupposing the existence of some contention of mine.  And what
does the grammaticality of the sentences have to do with whether one or
both is not underlyingly ambiguous?

> Explain why.

Unnecessary, given that you haven't reproduced the alleged contention.

>>> You're confusing truth value and grammaticality

>> Incorrect, Lucien.

> I am correct

Balderdash, Lucien.

> - you are profoundly confused.

Balderdash, Lucien, and rather ironic, coming from someone who is
profoundly confused, as I demonstrated in my response.

>> Are you still suffering from reading comprehension problems?

> The reader will note the presentation of more irrelevancies,

The reader will note the presentation of more pontification.  The
fact that I commented on the logic of the sentence, while you
inferred a comment about the grammaticality of the sentence,
demonstrates some sort of problem on your part, Lucien.

> the typical Tholen resort when the logic and evidence have run out.

You're erroneously preuspposing that the logic and evidence have
run out, Lucien.

>>  I said that the latter is not logical.

> Irrelevant.

On the contrary, what I said is quite relevant, Lucien.

> The logic of the sentence is not the issue;

Incorrect, Lucien, given that logic is what one uses to resolve
the ambiguity.

> rather, its grammaticality in the face of your (erroneous) contention
> of the absence of an ambiguity WRT quantification in the base sentence
> is the issue.

Incorrect, Lucien, given that the grammaticality of the sentence has
never been the issue.  Furthermore, my contention regarding the absence
of an ambiguity is not erroneous.

> Here are the sentences again:

Unnecessary, Lucien.

> "OS/2 Java 1.1.8 implements some Java 1.2 functionality."
>
> and
>
> "OS/2 Java 1.1.8 implements all Java 1.2 functionality."
>
> In light of your contention that no grammatical ambiguity WRT
> quantification exists in the base JDK sentence,

Where is that alleged contention, Lucien?

> explain why both variants presented here are grammatical, coherent
> sentences of English.

Unnecessary, given that you haven't reproduced the alleged contention.

Meanwhile, I noticed how you deleted yet another example of mine that
demonstrates another flaw in your reasoning.  I'll restore it:

] Unnecessary, because lack of ambiguity can be achieved by other means.
] For example, if you have a compact disc titled "Andre Watts Performs
] Mozart", are you going to claim that the title is ambiguous because
] "performs" could mean "some" or "all" of the music of Mozart?  In this
] case, the ambiguity is resolved because Mozart composed more music
] than can fit on a compact disc.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: dhu@smartt.com                                    14-Dec-99 08:40:05
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 03:34:19
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: "D. Hu" <dhu@smartt.com>

All the more reason voters should make sure the
next bunch of crooks elected would have their
fingers burned to the elbows if they dare think
about touching pension funds and EI surpluses.
Instead of being passive about this, push for new
laws.

D.

Alan Baker wrote:

> >Given the large pool of people in the plan, its rather a bargain.
> 
> Except, of course, for the fact that there is no way to guarantee that a
> future government might change the benefits the plan will pay out. If
> down the road the feds decide they need the money you may find that you
> may not be getting the pension you expected and paid for.
> 
> --
> Alan Baker
> Vancouver, British Columbia
> "If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from that wall to
that
> wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you sit in the
> bottom of that cupboard."

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: uno@40th.com                                      16-Dec-99 03:30:06
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 03:34:19
Subj: OS2 comes in 9th (Re: OS2 garners 'OTHER' status in operating system us

From: uno@40th.com (uno@40th.com)

For hard-hitting, knock-out numbers, click on this link.  It has OS2
numbers (9th place, right ahead of ... Amiga):

 http://www.thecounter.com/stats/December/os.html

 Summary

  Windows*: about 216,550 thousand hits (216+ million)
       OS2: about      38 thousand hits
     Amiga: about      23 thousand hits

To put this into perspective, hits using this counter are 5700 times
more likely to be from a Win* OS than from OS2.  At least OS2 is showing.
There's no way to spin out of this: OS2 users are going, going... (to
Amiga?).

I wrote (4 Dec 1999 22:22:41 GMT):
> http://www.statmarket.com/SM?c=Operating_System


 '`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'
 Corne1 Huth     http://40th.com/      Bullet database engines/servers

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: kwilas@stardock.com                               16-Dec-99 03:50:12
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 03:34:19
Subj: Re: do you have OS/2 1.1?

From: kwilas@stardock.com (Kris Kwilas)

In article <8T3V4odSRgYO089yn@ibm.net>, James Knott <jknott@ca.ibm.com> wrote:
>It's called "Desktop on Call".  There are OS/2, Linux and even Windows
>versions of it.  It does work, but is *SLOW*, even when running 
>Netscape on a Pentium 150 on a 16 Mb token ring lan, with both 
>computers on the same desk.  It's really strange to see the desktop 
>change almost instantly on the remote system and watch the same info 
>slowly appear on the local computer.

That's more a function of the machines in question than anything
else. I run it over our 10Mb network at the office and, as an
example, when connecting to one of the servers (beefy PII-400
system running lots of stuff), it's faster working with that machine
via Desktop on Call than it is working locally on my PII-233
for general operations (I wouldn't do graphics design over it
though :). 

Kris

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com               15-Dec-99 19:58:04
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 03:34:19
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: "Kim Cheung" <kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com>

On Wed, 15 Dec 1999 21:36:12 -0500, Jim Frost wrote:

>As I read it, they were asking about using it "in the home".  For "in the
>corporation" I agree with you (that multiple boxes are bad), and in fact I'd
>suggest that you toss the OS/2 boxes because you can get all the same
software
>on Windows and a whole lot more without the funky bridging stuff.

Yes, lots of the Windows advocates would love to see OS/2 just disappear from
the surface of earth.   That's not going to happen.    But let's not get into
that.    We have significant reaction from enterprise because it means that
they don't have to spent hundreds of millions of dollars rewriting their time
tested line-of-business applications just so they can run these "funky"
Windows software packages.

We put up this survey just to see if it would mean anything for the
non-enterprise OS/2 users.



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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: viewme18@hotmail.com                              16-Dec-99 01:09:04
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 04:48:28
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: PL <viewme18@hotmail.com>

On Wed, 15 Dec 1999 16:13:22 -0700, "Steven C. Britton"
<sbritton@cadvision.com> wrote:

>PL wrote:
>
>> >> Take your head out of the sand. Alot of the young people don't even
>> >> know what the rules are.
>> >
>> >It's their responsibility to educate themselves.
>
>> And by that time some get hurt.
>
>They should educate themselves BEFORE going to work.
Well even better. Get a union in. They will ensure the workplace is
safe.
>
>> >> There are many companies that do not wish to comply with even exsisting
>> >rules.
>> >
>> >That's fine.  People shouldn't work for them then.
>
>> That maybe answer for the well off. But for many they cannot afford to
>> quit a job and just move to the next one.
>
>Not everything is easy.  I never said it was -- but the choice is always
>there.
Yes you forgot one. Get a union in. You will keep your job, not lose
any pay and get a better company to work for.
>
>> >Unions aren't needed for that.  If the company isn't following the rules,
>it
>> >is in the staff's best interest to seek other employment.  I certainly
>> >wouldn't work for an unsafe or abusive company -- unionized or not.
>
>> But the unions do help protect the employee in those situations. Make
>> that type of company a union shop do the job very well.
>> If I could not change the company, I also would not work for a unsafe
>> or abusive company
>
>Quitting en masse has a bigger effect than unionizing.  It also causes
>instant results; rather than the band-aid approach of unionizing; which
>basically sets up an adversarial bargaining process and breeds animosity
>between the union and management.
Quitting en masse does have a bigger effect but only for the short
term. 2 days later they have hired a bunch more employees and start
all over again. Unionizing the employees is a much more effecient
approach. Employees do not lose wages (no quitting needed) and then
end up with a safe work place. 
It sure can be adversarial bargaining if the company wishes to be
bastards about it. When they chose to not work with the union
regarding the issues and try to dictate to the union, they will be
adversarys. Issues like wage reductions and giving less benefits just
because they want to is not going to go over in a union shop. Now if
it wage reductions because the company did not make money, then open
the books up and show the union reps the info. 99% of the time they
will get reductions to save the jobs. 
>
>It also sets up stupid ideas such as "the workers" and "management".  As if
>"managers" didn't "work".
They do no such thing. What it does do is make sure that the manager
is not allowed to work on the floor doing a workers job. 
>
>
>> >> >> ... minimum wage standards...
>> >> >
>> >> >Sure!  Minimum wage kills jobs.
>> >> What, trying to turn this country into another Mexico?
>> >> If we allow the business leaders to set some baseline for wages, all
>> >> of our wages would drop down to virtually nothing.
>> >
>> >That's not true -- I won't work for less than a certain amount.
>
>> I am sure you would not. Nor would I. But there are a again many that
>> do not have either the education or skills to be picky about how much
>> they earn.
>
>Then they should get educated.  Don't treat the symptom, cure the disease.
Well one way to cure the disease is to raise the minimum wage so that
they can afford to got back to school.

>
>> >Businesses pay people what they're worth.  If your statement were true,
>> >everybody in the world would make minimum wage and nothing more -- but I
>for
>> >one make much more than minimum wage.
>>
>> 25 years ago I would have agreed with you. But not now. It use to be
>> if you worked hard, and proved to your manager that you could handle
>> extra duties, he usually responded with more money and maybe even a
>> promotion if you keep it you.
>
>Then quit.
Nope , get a union in and get paid to do the extra duties. 
>
>The truth is that nowadays, people change careers five times in their
>life -- because where they go offers better rewards.
Yes they do change careers at least 5 times in their life. And if they
are lucky, EI may even pay for that training. 
EI should be paying for retraining alot more than they do
Speaking of EI, remember all the people who went on EI in the early
90's. (Not sure you would. You very young)
The government did not deal with corporations properly. They should
have investigated each one of them. If they laid off workers because
they wanted to give higher rates of returns to investors, then the
company should have paid the EI to the laid of worker. If the company
was going the tubes then EI would foot the bill.
That would have taken thousands off the EI books because the layoffs
would not have happened. 
To bad that the management of those companies were so brain dead that
they could offer anything better than layoffs.

>
>> Generally now they give you a promotion to "working supervisor" just
>> so they do have to pay overtime. And if there is a pay increase it is
>> low you have to ask if it is a joke.
>Then quit.  Find another job.
Nope, get a union in. Working supervisor disappears.
>> I also make much more than minimun wage, but that does not blind me
>> from the realities of the less fortunate.
>
>Depends on how you define "less fortunate".  Many people on minimum wage at
>McDonalds are there because they're students going through school and it's a
>source of basic income.  They're usually dependent on their parents for a
>place to live, etc, so they don't NEED anything more than that.
And many are not. They are young people with families trying to make a
living without going on welfare. Many students do not live with the
parents for various reasons. Most are not dependant on the parents nor
do the wish to be. 
And who are to judge what they need regarding wages or anything else
for that matter! 
>
>
>> >> Oh and if it does kill jobs, those jobs aren't worth having aroung
>> >> anyhow!
>> >
>> >I didn't say that.  Minimum wage laws actually harm the people they're
>meant
>> >to help.  If I ran a McDonald's, for example, raising minimum wage would
>> >force me to lay off workers (or at least not expand my workforce),
>causing
>> >service and quality to drop, and I might be forced out of business --
>which
>> >means that EVERYBODY would lose their job.
>
>> That maybe so for a very small percentage of business. But if they are
>> running on such a small margin of profit it would be best if they did
>> close shop.
>
>Raising minimum wage would harm ALL businesses.
Nope. Raising the minimum wage allows people to spend more at
Mcdonalds once in awhile. Gee they will even sell more cheese burgers
and fries.
>
>> >You take the company to court like I did.  And I won.
>> >
>> >Not all lawyers.  There's legal aid, some lawyers work on a percentage
>> >basis...
>
>> My daughter has been there and done that. Legal aid will not accept
>> that type of case and every lawyer we called in Edmonton would not
>> accept the case without money up front. Do you know why? Because it
>> was not a $100,000/yr job. That was right from the mouth of one the
>> lawyers we called.
>> So who else to defend the employee when all that fails?
>
>You have to decide if the court battle is worth it -- if the result is more
>than the lawyer's fee, it's worth it.
I can see you did not know what you talking about again. That option
is only the well off. For the average worker it is no option at all.
But get a union in and the employee will not need worry about wrongful
dismissals. The union will take up the fight.
>
>> >I'm not afraid of any of that: because in that situation, I'd ensure that
>I
>> >had an extremely safe workplace (which exceeded the safety standards by a
>> >long shot), pay people what they're worth (which, when they're good, can
>be
>> >far higher than a union would get), and give good benefits.
>
>> May you would ,but countless others would not.
>
>Then countless others would fail.  Countless others DO fail.  Most of them
>run bad businesses.
>
>> If they were all good corporate citizens the need for unions would not be
>needed. But
>> unfortunately that time has never come.
>> Oh and by the way, I do not believe every company needs a union. There
>> still are some good companies out there who truely believe and
>> practice your last example. Those do not need unions. But to the many
>> others out there who do not give a shit about there employees, the
>> labor rules, the enviroment etc they need a union.
>
>Companies that are union-free do better business, treat their employees
>better, and generally have better quality products.  Union shops are more
>likely to build crap than non-union shops.
Now that is a load of crap. What prof taught you that? Or is it out of
the Young Reformers hand book?
Unionized companies do business in the same manner that non-union do.
Non-union generally pay less, give less benefits and usually have
products of same quality. 
You know the little sign that non-union shops put out on the street
corner saying "We are hiring. Union rates paid" It means they have
increased their wages to match union shops. It is the only way they
can draw good tradesmen to their business. 


Tell you what. Once you get out of school, Come into the real world
for 10 years in Alberta's service companies. Maybe even work on a rig
or 2. Until you have those types of experiences your words are
meaningless. Just the rants of a college kid who has no real world
experiences yet. 
And remember, many of us do not wish Canada to become the Mexico of
the north.
 
Get decent pay for your days work. UNIONIZE

>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>What have YOU done to bust a union today?
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Work better: Work union-free.
>
>Steven C. Britton
>Calgary
>
>www.cadvision.com/sbritton
>
>

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From: jimf@frostbytes.com                               16-Dec-99 03:14:25
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 04:48:28
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: Jim Frost <jimf@frostbytes.com>

> :>COO for NT is way lower than either OS/2 or Win9x (you can easily lock
down
> :>the configuration against changes, deliberate or accidental); it's a
really
> :>viable corporate system at this point and still way cheaper than this
product.
> 
> Show us something to back up your claims that Cost of Ownership is lower for
> NT that OS/2.  NT requrires more hardware than OS/2 and more support people
> per x number of users than OS/2.  There are banks using OS/2 that won't drop
> it for NT because banks hate spending money and if they switched to NT, they
> would need 3-4 times the number of support personnel and ALL new hardware
> from servers to desktops.

Unfortunately I have been unable to find a single TCO number for OS/2.  I
found a lot for various Windows systems, but this article is the most
informative:

http://www2.computerworld.com/home/online9697.nsf/All/971216gartner1B35A

Maybe you can dig up Gartner's numbers for OS/2?  That would be helpful.  I
would especially like it if you could find something that shows that NT
requires 300% more support people.  Frankly speaking I think you're confusing
NT with Win9x.

Assuming that you're going to have as hard a time finding this info as I did,
let's analyze where the systems differ in terms of cost so that we can at
least make some guesses as to relative expenditure.

Capital costs are very similar between all of these systems.  Back around the
end of 1995 when NT started to be a viable business OS you were talking about
$300 or so difference per seat (that's the extra RAM you needed for NT versus
OS/2, at about $10/MB, which is what I paid retail at the time).  Today that
difference is around $40.

OS costs are lowest for Windows; $50 or so for Windows 9x preloaded, $150 for
NT preloaded (most vendors sell NT upgrades for $100).  OS/2 can't be found
preloaded from any significant hardware vendor so you're looking at something
like $250 per seat (including the $50 you had to spend on Windows 9x because
of the monopoly arrangement).  If you're buying Windows aftermarket you're
talking about $150 for Win9x ($90 if you already have Win3.1), $200 for OS/2,
and $215 for NT.  Not a hell of a lot of difference there even full retail.

Application software costs are harder to gauge, but Windows has economies of
scale and so much competition that prices tend to be better than anywhere
else.  For the sake of argument let's just call that a wash.

So far we've come up pretty much dead even for OS/2 and NT in terms of capital
costs: more expensive hardware for NT, more expensive OS for OS/2, assuming
you are buying new hardware and get NT preloaded.  If you aren't -- and I
really don't mind going worst case here -- you're talking about $55 or so
difference between the two, or less than one percent of TCO (assuming OS/2 has
TCO more or less in the ballpark of an NC, which I think is optimistic for
reasons I'll explain in a minute).

So where are the big cost differences?  In a word, upkeep.

Hardware reliability is the same for all of these systems, seeing as it's all
the same hardware.  It may suck, but it sucks for all of them.  So that's not
it.

But maintaining the OS and applications -- meaning the number of times IT has
to come and repair a system that somehow got messed up, and the time they
spend doing it -- here we see big differences.

Windows 9x is horrible in this respect; installing or removing software can
hose a system easily, and there's nothing stopping a user from just up and
deleting the OS and/or application installation.  (This is the old "I ran out
of disk space but I found all these files in C:\Windows that I know I didn't
put there so I deleted them.  Now my PC won't boot.")  IMO Win9x is pretty
much a worst-case TCO scenario for the hardware platform.  About the only way
it's manageable at all is if you use something like Ghost that just does a
disk image reinstall -- and all that does is make the fix faster, not the
occurrances less frequent.

OS/2 has the same problem that Windows 9x does in that it's really easy to
destroy system software (that "I deleted stuff" problem again).  Thankfully it
wins big in two respects: most software doesn't go install new patches to the
OS (so installing or removing software doesn't tend to screw other things up),
and there's so little aftermarket software out there that users aren't likely
to be trying to install that nifty new game or screensaver.  So I will
definitely grant you that TCO for OS/2 should be markedly better than Win9x.

But NT ... well, NT is interesting from the POV of an administrator because
you can seriously lock it down such that it's really quite hard to muck with
the system software or applications.  No new software, no modifications to old
software, no ability to delete software.  Its big problem is that you have to
go visit each system to install or upgrade software (that registry thing is
just a cluster-fuck in terms of group system management) though of course
there are some fairly expensive tools out there to minimize that.  (I think
those tools mostly shift the costs from labor to capital, rather than really
saving anything, but YMMV.)  But if you want to install a fixed set of
software and leave it alone, well, NT is real good for that.

My personal choice for administering a boatload of systems is one or another
UNIX system.  It's just so damned easy to lock them down against user fiddling
and to maintain them in bulk remotely.  Unfortunately client software is darn
near nonexistant and the quality of what's there often leaves something to be
desired.  But if you can get software it's really hard to beat the TCO of
something like Linux.

Where you're making assumptions that may not hold is that you believe that
it's cheaper to keep using what you've got than it is to replace it.  It gets
harder and harder to justify that every year as parts and software become
harder to get, and as the cost of new hardware continues to drop.  I'm finding
that seven years is pretty much the limit for spare parts availability for
these things; after that you might as well toss it and buy a whole new system
if it breaks.  That is a great time to look at alternatives, of course, and
there are some pretty good alternatives to Win9x nowadays.

Whether or not one of those good alternatives is OS/2 is quite debatable.  IBM
has seriously curtailed ongoing development of the system; it has been in
maintenance mode for a couple of years, and we've even heard of potential
cut-off dates for that (2006 wasn't it?).  Drivers for a lot of new hardware
are impossible to get.  Very few ISVs continue to build -- or even maintain --
software for it.

About the only high point to OS/2 is that it has a pretty decent JVM, although
it's a year out-of-date at this point (even behind Linux, and that's pretty
bad) and no better than that available elsewhere even ignoring the fact that
it's out-of-date.  Personally I think that the Java-will-save-OS/2 story is
less than thin: client-side Java applications are even rarer than native OS/2
applications and generally much worse quality.

In summary: I think OS/2 has higher TCO than a well-managed NT system.  Not a
lot higher, but a bit.  I think the cost of just maintaining an OS/2 system
will grow substantially over time due to difficulty in replacing failing
hardware.  And I believe that software support for OS/2 is way down and
getting worse, even from IBM.  All of these things add up to a pretty tough
time justifying OS/2 long-term.  And if you can't justify OS/2 long-term then
you're crazy to spend hundreds of dollars per seat buying stuff to let you
shoehorn Windows applications onto it.

Rebuttal?

jim frost
http://world.std.com/~jimf

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: jimf@frostbytes.com                               16-Dec-99 03:43:00
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 04:48:29
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: Jim Frost <jimf@frostbytes.com>

Kim Cheung wrote:
> >As I read it, they were asking about using it "in the home".  For "in the
> >corporation" I agree with you (that multiple boxes are bad), and in fact
< >I'd suggest that you toss the OS/2 boxes because you can get all the same
> >software on Windows and a whole lot more without the funky bridging stuff.
> 
> Yes, lots of the Windows advocates would love to see OS/2 just disappear
> from the surface of earth.

I think that perhaps you have confused me with a Windows advocate.  That seems
to be fairly common around here; if you're not for OS/2 you must be a Windows
person.  I assure you that's not the case. Personally I advocate whatever gets
the job done with the least amount of hassles.  For me that's Linux nowadays,
though over time it has worked its way through CP/M, MS-DOS, BSD UNIX, SunOS,
Solaris, and NT.  I never found much value in Windows 3.1 or 9x, though the
latter is at least pretty good as a game console.  YMMV, of course.

Pragmatically speaking if there is some application you can't get any other
way than Windows (and let's face it, there are more than a few, which is why I
still run an NT box) then you probably ought to run Windows for it; it'll be
cheaper in the long run than some funky solution.

> We have significant reaction from enterprise because it means that
> they don't have to spent hundreds of millions of dollars rewriting their
> time tested line-of-business applications just so they can run these
> "funky" Windows software packages.

Those "funky" Windows software packages are the whole draw for your product. 
You're basically betting that the customer has so much tied up in OS/2 that
they can't afford to let it go, but they need those Windows applications bad
enough to pay hundreds of dollars extra on your stuff to get them.

That's going to be a real tough sell.  You'd be way more likely to sell
something that emulated OS/2 under Windows, though I wouldn't get anywhere
near that business model either.

I'm just an armchair quarterback on this one but my advice to you is to get
out now; there are much more fun and profitable things to be doing even if you
don't want to get anywhere near Windows.

jim

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From: larso@commodore.                                  16-Dec-99 10:10:17
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 10:28:05
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg)

As I stepped out onto the Stoop, I saw jenuths@homacjen.ab.ca write:

[Re: the CPP]
> Given the large pool of people in the plan, its rather a bargain.

Hey Untruth, this "bargain" of yours is the kind of thing that many of your
colleagues take people to court over operating.

It's called a Ponzi scheme, named after a rather innovative Boston
mail-stamps vendor in the 19th century.  It's called a scheme only by the
very polite: in reality is a sham...yet when your holy government does it,
you call it a 'bargain'?

And what, by the way, was the pension return on this 'bargain' of a pension
plan?  Ten percent?  Twenty percent?  Thirty percent?  What incredibly high
return rate did this bargain net us?


-- 
Lars P. Ormberg     ICQ#:8827066
mailto:larso@ualberta.ca
The University of Lars:   http://www.ualberta.ca/~larso/

"The way you're bathed in light, reminds me of that night
God laid me down into your rose garden of trust and I was
swept away with nothin' left to say some helpless fool
yeah I was lost in a swoon of peace you're all I need to
find so when the time is right come to me sweetly, come
to me come to me..love will lead us, alright.  love will
lead us, she will lead us.  can you hear the dolphin's
cry?  see the road rise up to meet us its in the air we
breathe tonight love will lead us, she will lead us"
                            -Live, "The Dolphin's Cry"

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: jmandres@carbon.icb.csic.es                       16-Dec-99 11:04:06
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 10:28:06
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: jmandres <jmandres@carbon.icb.csic.es>

Well, I am waiting for VMware or freemware to have an usable system. I
know that VMware does not consider OS/2 as a host, ¨just as a guest?, but
I could try. On the other hand, there is Odin, the Win9x emulation, or
Bochs. Where do you position your development? I understand your
enterprise point of view, but for SOHO or home users, free or cheap
software is a must.

Kim Cheung escribi¢:

> Serenity Systems markets a Managed Client(r) product which provides
> significant benefits to business users. We selected OS/2 as our
> desktop client for many reasons and one is the broad range of
> application support provided.
>
> However, we continue to receive requests to support Win32
> applications. Often this request is in addition to the requirement to
> run Presentation Manager or WorkPlace Shell applications, which are
> frequently Line of Business Applications.
>
> After reviewing the product solutions available, we determined that
> the best response to this requirement would be a hardware
> modification to the workstation, enabling the system to support a
> host operating system and guest operating system. Release 1 of the
> product is anticipated to support an OS/2 host and a Windows guest.
> The OS/2 support includes WorkSpace on Demand and OS/2 V4 (Merlin)
> with support for a Managed Client, run either as a diskless RPL
> client or as a traditional "fat" client.
>
> We have put an overview of this project on our web site
> (http://www.Serenity-Systems.com/), with an associated questionnaire
> which will help us through our product planning. Accessing the
> document requires that you have a valid log-on for the site. You can
> request a log on from Info@Serenity-Systems.com. Once you log on to
> the site, click on the Project Concorde image and, if it is
> appropriate, complete the questionnaire.

--
Jos‚ Manuel Andr‚s
Instituto de Carboqu¡mica, CSIC
Mar¡a de Luna 12
50015 - Zaragoza
ESPA¥A / SPAIN
jmandres@carbon.icb.csic.es or jmandres@tornado.icb.csic.es


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From: larso@commodore.                                  16-Dec-99 10:14:23
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 10:28:06
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: larso@commodore. (Lars P Ormberg)

As I stepped out onto the Stoop, I saw jenuths@homacjen.ab.ca write:
> In can.politics Steven C. Britton <sbritton@cadvision.com> wrote:

> > And if the premiums were eliminated, employers and employees could set up
> > matched plans at the same rate and earn a far better return.
> 
> Somehow I doubt it.  A large group plan is certainly more efficient
> on things like this.

Again, Untruth, PLEASE give us the rate on return that this 'efficient'
group plan was giving us.

Was it twice as high as the average R.O.I. over the past quarter century?
Three times as high?
Fifty times as high?

C'mon, I know you know the numbers...

> > Given the nature and way the plan is operated (a national pyramid scam),
it
> > is $600 billion in debt, and on the verge of collapse.  Not even the
recent
> > tax grab will fix it.
> 
> It will be around long after you are gone.
> 
> Which is quote a happy thought.

I'll avoid quoting your happy thoughts, since you apparently have no idea
how the CPP works.

> > In my lifetime, I will put in tens of thousands of dollars in CPP
premiums;
> > and what do I get when I retire? 
> 
> The CPP will provide for the minimum.  You may choose to invest in RRSPs and
> all of that.

Why should he have to?  Why couldn't he put more money into his 'efficient'
government-run pension?

> >                                 A flat income of about $8900 a year -- not
> > enough to live on.  Not only that, but the rate of return on investment is
> > about 1.2%, which is far LESS than the 15% I'm doing on my mutual funds
> > right now.
> 
> That's why the federal government negotiated with the provinces to 
> change the investment strategy of the fund.

Why does your 'efficient' plan need changing?

> If only those provinces were not in the way, this would have been
> done years ago.

Yeah, right, sure.

Face it, Untruth, your party is the party of scum, liars, and idiots.  It
deserves to have every member lined up in the street and SHOT.

-- 
Lars P. Ormberg     ICQ#:8827066
mailto:larso@ualberta.ca
The University of Lars:   http://www.ualberta.ca/~larso/

"The way you're bathed in light, reminds me of that night
God laid me down into your rose garden of trust and I was
swept away with nothin' left to say some helpless fool
yeah I was lost in a swoon of peace you're all I need to
find so when the time is right come to me sweetly, come
to me come to me..love will lead us, alright.  love will
lead us, she will lead us.  can you hear the dolphin's
cry?  see the road rise up to meet us its in the air we
breathe tonight love will lead us, she will lead us"
                            -Live, "The Dolphin's Cry"

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: dmhills@attglobal.net                             16-Dec-99 23:07:00
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 10:28:06
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: dmhills@attglobal.net (Don Hills)

In article <3858501C.F8780073@frostbytes.com>,
Jim Frost <jimf@frostbytes.com> wrote:
>
>COO for NT is way lower than either OS/2 or Win9x (you can easily lock down
>the configuration against changes, deliberate or accidental); it's a really
>viable corporate system at this point and still way cheaper than this
product.

You can't truly lock down NT. NT might be secure by itself or with many
3rd-party apps, but Microsoft's own products are so full of wormholes
due to their interdependency that it makes a mockery of the "lock down"
concept. For example, there is no way you can run Word while keeping the
user from opening a command prompt and running amok.

--
Don Hills    (dmhills at attglobaldotnet)     Wellington, New Zealand

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From: cocke@catherders.com                              16-Dec-99 07:10:04
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 10:28:06
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: Michael W. Cocke <cocke@catherders.com>

On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 03:43:00 -0500, Jim Frost wrote:

>Kim Cheung wrote:
>> >As I read it, they were asking about using it "in the home".  For "in the
>> >corporation" I agree with you (that multiple boxes are bad), and in fact
>< >I'd suggest that you toss the OS/2 boxes because you can get all the same
>> >software on Windows and a whole lot more without the funky bridging stuff.
>> 
>> Yes, lots of the Windows advocates would love to see OS/2 just disappear
>> from the surface of earth.
>
>I think that perhaps you have confused me with a Windows advocate.  That
seems
>to be fairly common around here; if you're not for OS/2 you must be a Windows
>person.  I assure you that's not the case. Personally I advocate whatever
gets
>the job done with the least amount of hassles.  For me that's Linux nowadays,
>though over time it has worked its way through CP/M, MS-DOS, BSD UNIX, SunOS,
>Solaris, and NT.  I never found much value in Windows 3.1 or 9x, though the
>latter is at least pretty good as a game console.  YMMV, of course.

That being the case, I would guess that you don't have to deal with any 
users but yourself or other computer literates.  At home, I support my 
wife and son, neither of whom are real interested in learning that
ls -l|sort|more is how you do a dir...  At work, I support around 100 
users who think a logon has something to do with a big tree.  Yeah, 
linux would go over real big...  (intense sarcasm).  And before you 
start telling me that I don't know anything about linux, let me tell you
that I was trained at SCO, and was a systems engineer at AT&T.  I know a
little about *nix systems.

>
>Pragmatically speaking if there is some application you can't get any other
>way than Windows (and let's face it, there are more than a few, which is why
I
>still run an NT box) then you probably ought to run Windows for it; it'll be
>cheaper in the long run than some funky solution.
>
>> We have significant reaction from enterprise because it means that
>> they don't have to spent hundreds of millions of dollars rewriting their
>> time tested line-of-business applications just so they can run these
>> "funky" Windows software packages.
>
>Those "funky" Windows software packages are the whole draw for your product. 
>You're basically betting that the customer has so much tied up in OS/2 that
>they can't afford to let it go, but they need those Windows applications bad
>enough to pay hundreds of dollars extra on your stuff to get them.

You're forgetting one thing - there's also a whole class of customer 
that would like (very much) to run one or more win apps, but cannot/will
not deal with the stability issues of windows on an enterprise level, 
the 'virus of the day', a never-ending series of compatibility and 
security problems...  

Personally, I'd love to be able to run a few win apps on either my 
system at home (OS/2) or my system at work (OS/2), but I _CANNOT_ risk 
the stability of 24/7 networks for the sake of that.

>
>That's going to be a real tough sell.  You'd be way more likely to sell
>something that emulated OS/2 under Windows, though I wouldn't get anywhere
>near that business model either.

VMware recently announced this product - Speaking both personally and 
professionally (Did I mention that I'm D.I.T.?), not interested.  That 
approach would trade OS/2's strong points (stability and 
the WPS) for compatibility with some application software that, while it
would be nice to have, isn't as impossible to live without as systems 
that remain online.

>
>I'm just an armchair quarterback on this one but my advice to you is to get
>out now; there are much more fun and profitable things to be doing even if
you
>don't want to get anywhere near Windows.
>
>jim
>

The only reason I haven't answered their survey (yet) is that I'm in the
middle of setting up another LAN and getting it tied into the enterprise
WAN - this is the first time I've stopped working in around 36 hours.

Off the top, if what they propose would let me run win98 apps without 
compromising stability and security (running win98), I'd spend up to 
$300.00 at home, and another $300.00 at work, just for my personal 
systems.  I'd expect to pay more for an enterprise solution, but would 
have to give it more thought before I actually approved it for general 
use.  I need another support issue like I need a lobotomy.


My $0.02



-------------------------------------------------------------------
         Please note:  My Email and web page addresses have changed!
                The new email address is cocke@catherders.com   
                 The web page is at http://www.catherders.com

               Because network administration is like herding cats.

-------------------------------------------------------------------



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From: siberREMOVETHIS@sympatico.ca                      16-Dec-99 12:18:01
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 10:28:06
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: siberREMOVETHIS@sympatico.ca (E. Barry Bruyea)

On Wed, 15 Dec 1999 21:18:51 -0500, Jim Frost <jimf@frostbytes.com>
wrote:

>Bob Germer wrote:
>> On <3856F2D8.7C53D352@ibm.net>, on 12/14/99 at 08:46 PM,
>>    Joseph <josco@ibm.net> said:
>> 
>> > Defending MS against left wingers?  Who!?! I never thought of SUN's
>> > Scott McNealy as a liberal let alone a jealous left winger.  I bet he'd
>> > laugh at that slurr being his father was a GM auto exec.  MS's enemies
>> > are conservative corporations in say Utah and companies owned by
>> > billionaires like Larry Ellison and Soctt McNealy.
>> > It's all about money and power between wealthy and powerful
>> > people.
>> 
>> Those who refuse to learn from history are condemned to repeat it. Your
>> argument above was the crux of the defense raised by AT&T. It wasn't valid
>> then. It isn't valid now.
>
>While you might have a point with a different analogy, the breakup of AT&T
was
>consentual (ie AT&T wanted to be broken up).  The idea was that 90% of the
>cost of doing business was local and 90% of the profit was long-distance. 
The
>thing they didn't expect was regionalization of the default long-distance
>carrier; they figured they'd get the long-distance business pretty much lock,
>stock, and barrel and it'd be up to the other companies to take it away from
>them.
>
>It didn't work out that way, but you gotta admire the way they managed the
>breakup such that they got all kinds of concessions while spinning off the
>expensive part of doing business even if they didn't get the whole ball of
>wax.
>
>jim


ATT Is still the largest L.D. carrier in the U.S., with profits,
adjusted for inflation, higher than they were the year they were
broken up. And the regionals substantially raised the cost (with
impunity) of having a residential telephone, something ATT was never
able to do.  

EBB

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From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           16-Dec-99 07:17:19
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 10:28:06
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <jORXtcYCR8l4-pn2-WlFGyMhBB0eK@SPHERICALBURN.TAMPABAY.RR.COM>, on
12/15/99 at 06:22 PM,
   donnelly@tampabay.rr.com (Buddy Donnelly) said:

> > And BTW, a Ford or Chevrolet set you back $495 list. Of course,
> > you counted yourself a fortunate fellow with a job paying
> > 30 cents an hour (the legal minimum wage; in 1938 Congress
> > raised it to 32 cents per hour. Bonanza, almost a 7% raise!). 

> You're claiming that our Free-Trade U.S. Capitalists (of that Golden 
> Era The Thirties) had to be forced, by Act Of Congress, to pay their 
> workers as little as 30 cents an hour? 

You need to have a sense of proportion, fella. The minimum wage is now
$5.25 or 17.5 times higher. A working person back then had a 1% FICA and
no Federal Income Tax liability. There was no personal income tax in most
states so a worker took home better than 29 cents an hour. A ride on the
subway cost 5 cents or about 10 minutes work. A new car cost $495 or 1,650
hour's work.

Today he or she would have 40 cents deducted for FICA and 5 cents deducted
for Workman's Compensation even if he or she were exempt from Income Tax.
Thus the take-home would be $4.80 maximum. With a subway ride at $1.25, he
or she would have to work better than a quarter hour to ride that subway.
1,650 hours of work would only let him or her buy a new car priced at
$7,920 but there is no such new car. 

A typical doctor's visit in the late 1930's cost $2 or about 7 hours work.
Today its over $45 or about 9 hour's work for the minimum wage worker.

In 1937, my parents bought a 16 feet wide "airlight" row home (called
townhouses today in most places) for $4,995. That would have been about 7
years, 3 months wages for a minimum wage worker since the typical work
week then was 44 hours a week. Today, the minimum wage worker (assuming no
federal or state or local income tax) would only have $72,400 available
which will not buy a new home with 3 bedrooms, living room, dining room,
kitchen, basement, garage, and 1.5 baths.

Moreover, the real estate taxes on my parent's first home are now 34 times
higher than they were in 1937.

Of course, my parents were making more than minimum wage back then or they
couldn't have afforded the home. They moved from what was then a very
"tony" apartment for which they paid $22.50 a month rent. That self-same
unit rents today for $525 or 23 times higher in what is considered a low
income district. Moreover, today's tenant has to pay for electricity on
top of the rent. It was included in 1937. And apartments, unlike fine
wine, don't get better with 60 years of ageing.

Finally, the interest rate on their mortgage in 1937 was a whopping 3.25%.

Remember what I said about constant dollars.

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
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From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           16-Dec-99 07:44:07
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 10:28:06
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <385778F8.D71B8A00@worldnet.att.net>, on 12/15/99 at 11:18 AM,
   Forrest Gehrke <fegehrke@worldnet.att.net> said:

> Heh! Since I am older than even your advanced age I remember buying gas
> 7 gallons for a dollar in the 1930's. You even got  a nice water glass
> or could collect the pieces of kitchen ware with each purchase.

And the reason was that the feds and states weren't charging 8 cents a
gallon tax back then! Those taxes were mostly imposed during WW II and
increased again and again since. The station operator was getting most of
the 14 cents a gallon and paying about 12.5 cents a gallon to the refinery
which provided the glasses etc. At the 22 cents a gallon price, the
governments were taking 8 cents in the mid-1950's so the operator was
getting the same 14 cents and the refinery the same 12.5 cents per gallon.

 And BTW, a Ford or Chevrolet set you back $495 list. Of course, you >
counted yourself a fortunate fellow with a job paying 30 cents an hour >
(the legal minimum wage; in 1938 Congress raised it to 32 cents per >
hour. Bonanza, almost a 7% raise!). 

As I pointed out in another post, that bought more house, more apartment,
etc. than today's minimum wage.

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------

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From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           16-Dec-99 07:48:21
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 10:28:06
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <3857d857_2@news.cadvision.com>, on 12/15/99 at 11:04 AM,
   "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com> said:

> Bob Germer wrote:
> >
> > > That's what reality is all about.
> >
> > That is the basis of a Capitalistic economy, the most favorable system yet
> > invented by the minds of men.

> That is the basis of REALITY; the only system that exists.  It was not
> invented by the minds of men: it is just the way the world works.

You obviously never learned anything in school. Unless you are a 4th grade
dropout, you must have flunked history, slept through history class, or
have an IQ lower than my dog's.

Economic systems are the invention of mankind. Capitalism, Feudalism,
Socialism, Communism, etc. are all economic systems invented by men. The
Native Americans didn't have an economic system unless one classifies
slavery as an economic system. The nomads of Africa and the Middle East
didn't have one. No animal population has an economic system.

Until the invention of systems of economy and government were invented,
each family worked out a division of labor and made the tools it required
to build shelter, make clothing, hunt or gather food, etc. Bartering
between families was how goods were transferred between families. There
was no money. The idea of ownership of land is the invention of men, not
natural law.

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
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From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           16-Dec-99 08:05:25
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 10:28:06
Subj: Re: When will it be 100% done?

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <839593$o9u$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, on 12/15/99 at 10:38 PM,
   cbass2112@my-deja.com said:

> In article <3857b22b$6$obot$mr2ice@news.pics.com>,
>   Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com> wrote:

> -- snip --

> > Headers do not prove a single thing.  My 10 year old grandchildren
> > can post messages on my machine. They cannot set up Warp or make
> > changes to it. Any 10 year old can click on an icon and enter a
> > message regardless of the OS involved.

> Well, at least you're finally acknowledging that Marty does *use* OS/2,
> your attempts at trivialization notwithstanding.  Also, you are wrong
> about the headers not proving anything -- they prove the following to be
> blatantly groundless:

No, Marty may use an application running under OS/2. I still maintain he
cannot use OS/2. There is a huge difference between using an application
someone else sets up and installing, modifying, etc. an operating system.

> "Bullshit. You are a liar about so many things, I don't believe you use
> or are capable of using OS/2."  Germer -- 12/12/1999

Asked and answered.

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
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From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           16-Dec-99 08:08:29
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 10:28:06
Subj: Re: When will it be 100% done?

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <838kvc$ba2$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, on 12/15/99 at 06:00 PM,
   cbass2112@my-deja.com said:

 > > And I observe that one could make a case that the currect DOJ action
> > > is being done on the behalf of "inferior [businesses] unable to
> > > compete in the world of [business] to stifle those who can."
> >
> > You can do whatever you want. That it will have no more validity than
> > a Canuck's views on the DOJ suit have standing doesn't stop you from
> > confirming that you are an ignoramus.

> Of course, you missed the point, degenerating to the use of invective in
> the process.

Why do I have a mental picture of Forest Gump when I read your drivel? I
know. As Forest said, "Stupid is as stupid does."

Where is invective in my post? Canuck? No, just a shorter way of saying
Canadian. Ignoramus? No. Just demonstrated fact by your posts.

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
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From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           16-Dec-99 08:13:16
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 10:57:19
Subj: Re: When will it be 100% done?

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <3857CE6A.4DB06D44@stny.rr.com>, on 12/15/99 at 12:22 PM,
   Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> said:

> Bob Germer wrote:
> > 
> > On <3856D9EF.1891A66F@stny.rr.com>, on 12/14/99 at 06:59 PM,
> >    Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> said:
> > 
> > > Have you checked my headers yet or are you going to keep making a
> > > jackass out of yourself?  Amazing how you can keep denying facts to
> > > preserve your dreamworld.  It surpasses even Tholen's idiocy.
> > 
> > Headers do not prove a single thing.

> They prove that I have been using an OS/2 machine for the last 5 years,
> which is more than your baseless accusations can counter.

They prove nothing more than you used an application running under OS/2.
They don't prove who installed the OS, who maintains it, who installed the
application.

> > My 10 year old grandchildren can post messages on my machine.

> And they are probably quite a bit more coherent than yours.

They certainly are smarter and more literate than you.

> > They cannot set up Warp or make changes to it.

> Why not?  Have you ever let them try?  It's not a very difficult thing.

Q.E.D. What a totally assinine statement. Unless one is running PnP
hardware available in 1996, setting up OS/2 is far from easy if one wants
his or her peripherals to work or be able to use a hard disk larger than 2
gigs. If one has a large hard disk, a newer SCSI adapter, an AGP video
card, USB ports, etc. one must know a great deal about the hardware to be
able to even install Warp and get to the PM. One must modify the
installation diskettes. One must be able to figure out which driver, which
snoop is causing the machine not to even boot for installation.

Thank you for proving you are not competent. Your statement above is prima
facia proof. Windoze does have one advantage over Warp. It is possible for
an asshole idiot like you to install it.


> Setting up OS/2 is not a difficult task.  IBM didn't design it to be a
> difficult task.  The fact that you pride yourself on doing something
> which is quite trivial speaks volumes of your skill level.  The fact
> that you would attack an OS/2 freeware programmer as not having
> knowledge of OS/2 speaks volumes about your intelligence.  That's like

If I believed the work you claim was really yours, you might have a point.
I don't believe it based on your posts which betray a total ignorance of
Warp.


--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
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From: jenuths@homacjen.ab.ca                            16-Dec-99 13:23:00
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 10:57:19
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: jenuths@homacjen.ab.ca

In can.politics Lars P Ormberg <larso@commodore.> wrote:
> As I stepped out onto the Stoop, I saw jenuths@homacjen.ab.ca write:
>> In can.politics Steven C. Britton <sbritton@cadvision.com> wrote:

>> > And if the premiums were eliminated, employers and employees could set up
>> > matched plans at the same rate and earn a far better return.
>> 
>> Somehow I doubt it.  A large group plan is certainly more efficient
>> on things like this.

> Again, Untruth, PLEASE give us the rate on return that this 'efficient'
> group plan was giving us.

> Was it twice as high as the average R.O.I. over the past quarter century?
> Three times as high?
> Fifty times as high?

> C'mon, I know you know the numbers...

The rate of return has not been high, because of the policy that its
funds be invested in provincial government securities.

As I said, provincial approval was now secured to change this.  And
since the Canada Pension Plan is a joint federal provincial program,
and since no changes are possible without provincial consent, it had
to wait for provincial consent.

>> > Given the nature and way the plan is operated (a national pyramid scam),
it
>> > is $600 billion in debt, and on the verge of collapse.  Not even the
recent
>> > tax grab will fix it.
>> 
>> It will be around long after you are gone.
>> 
>> Which is quote a happy thought.

> I'll avoid quoting your happy thoughts, since you apparently have no idea
> how the CPP works.

It seems you have little idea how the CPP works, and what the benefits
it provides are.

If you did you would not suggest that it is $ 600 billion in debt.

>> > In my lifetime, I will put in tens of thousands of dollars in CPP
premiums;
>> > and what do I get when I retire? 
>> 
>> The CPP will provide for the minimum.  You may choose to invest in RRSPs
and
>> all of that.

> Why should he have to?  Why couldn't he put more money into his 'efficient'
> government-run pension?

Until the CPP came around, people had the option which you would give them.

And most seniors lived in terrible poverty.  But putting together a large
group plan turned out to be very successful.  Something which vertually all
western countries decided to do.

>> >                                 A flat income of about $8900 a year --
not
>> > enough to live on.  Not only that, but the rate of return on investment
is
>> > about 1.2%, which is far LESS than the 15% I'm doing on my mutual funds
>> > right now.
>> 
>> That's why the federal government negotiated with the provinces to 
>> change the investment strategy of the fund.

> Why does your 'efficient' plan need changing?

Everything can be changed to make it better.

But you never have to gut a perfectly good plan and start over with
something which is financially unsustainable, and which will likely
produce far worse results.

>> If only those provinces were not in the way, this would have been
>> done years ago.

> Yeah, right, sure.

Sure.

> Face it, Untruth, your party is the party of scum, liars, and idiots.  It
> deserves to have every member lined up in the street and SHOT.


And to show the tremendous level of your maturity, you resort to the
normal Reform way of winning your argument: calling people names.

> -- 
> Lars P. Ormberg     ICQ#:8827066
> mailto:larso@ualberta.ca

Watching you write, I sometimes wonder what the uofa what the u of a
is doing.  I hope you do not refect what is happening at my old
university.  

-- 
Best regards,

Stephen Jenuth
(jenuths@homacjen.ab.ca)

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.

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From: jenuths@homacjen.ab.ca                            16-Dec-99 13:26:06
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 10:57:19
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: jenuths@homacjen.ab.ca

In can.politics Lars P Ormberg <larso@commodore.> wrote:
> As I stepped out onto the Stoop, I saw jenuths@homacjen.ab.ca write:

> [Re: the CPP]
>> Given the large pool of people in the plan, its rather a bargain.

> Hey Untruth, this "bargain" of yours is the kind of thing that many of your
> colleagues take people to court over operating.

Large group plans tend to be the most effecient in this type of
insurance.

> It's called a Ponzi scheme, named after a rather innovative Boston
> mail-stamps vendor in the 19th century.  It's called a scheme only by the
> very polite: in reality is a sham...yet when your holy government does it,
> you call it a 'bargain'?

Its certainly a pension plan based on a pay as you go basis.  No one ever
denied that.  It works because all working people in Canada are part of
the Plan, and will continue to be.


Best regards,

Stephen Jenuth
(jenuths@homacjen.ab.ca)

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.

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From: ivaes@hr.nl                                       16-Dec-99 14:31:01
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 10:57:19
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: Illya Vaes <ivaes@hr.nl>

"Michael W. Cocke" wrote:
>That being the case, I would guess that you don't have to deal with any
>users but yourself or other computer literates.  At home, I support my
>wife and son, neither of whom are real interested in learning that
>ls -l|sort|more is how you do a dir...

What's more intuitive about 'dir' than 'ls' (or 'dir /ad' than 'ls -lt')?
Not to mention that a good sysadmin can/will araange for everybody that
"magically" does know 'dir' but not 'ls' to have an alias 'dir' that maps to
....   bingo! 'ls -l|sort|more' (BTW, you have to do 'dir /p' to get the
'more' part, so you're not comparing honestly at even this basic level).
And if you like to use "the Explorer" as an example, there are plenty of fine
file managers etc. for Linux etc. too.
Real non-argument.

>At work, I support around 100 users who think a logon has something to do 
>with a big tree.  Yeah, linux would go over real big...  (intense sarcasm).

Sorry, but I am irritated by this attitude in our "IS" support too.
If they (and you) did their work as support well, those users would have to
know diddly squat about 'ls' etc.
*You* OTOH would have to be able to grasp more than just point-and-drool.
The users aren't paid to know about computers, software, etc.; you are.
Of course, many a times "OK" IS staf will just be hindered by management, so
that they can not put any time into setting up a good environment (that will
subsequently be easier and cheaper to support); usually they just present
"Windows" (read "Microsoft") as a prerequisite beyond discussion.

-- 
Illya Vaes   (ivaes@hr.nl)        "Do...or do not, there is no 'try'" - Yoda
Holland Railconsult BV, Integral Management of Railprocess Systems
Postbus 2855, 3500 GW Utrecht
Tel +31.30.2653273, Fax 2653385           Not speaking for anyone but myself

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From: b.l.nelson@larc.nasa.gov                          16-Dec-99 08:23:24
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 10:57:19
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Bennie Nelson <b.l.nelson@larc.nasa.gov>

"Steven C. Britton" wrote:
> 
> Bob Germer wrote:
> 
> > > I never said that Microsoft wasn't breaking the law.  I said that the
> > > laws were wrong, and I said that Microsoft had done nothing wrong.
> >
> > If MicroSoft broke the laws, which you acknowledge they did, then by
> > definition they did wrong. You cannot have it any other way in the real
> > world.
> 
> I guess you're just too closed-minded to see that laws can, in fact, be
> unjust, which means that someone doing something perfectly ethical can in
> fact be breaking the law.
> 
> In other words, one can break the anti-trust laws without actually doing
> anything wrong.

Your statement here is flawed because it places your opinion of the antitrust
laws above those laws.  Your dislike/disapproval of said laws does not
constitute proof that those laws are indeed flawed.  

However, for the sake of the discussion, let's assume for the moment that
some portion of the body of antitrust laws is flawed.  Which portion remains 
to be demonstrated.  Furthermore, even if some determinate portion of the
law is incorrect, it is incumbent upon the good citizen to obey the law or,
by civil disobedience, to disobey that portion which they can articulate is
flawed.  Understand though, that the good citizen uses civil disobedience
knowing that the penalty for breaking bad laws must still be paid until
the laws are changed.  

In short, disobeying a bad law is still disobeying the law.  This disobedience
should be punished until the law is changed or revoked, else the rule of law
is undermined.

AFAIK MS has not gone on record opposing the antitrust laws as being flawed.  
MS maintains those laws do not apply in their case, because MS claims that
MS is not a monopoly.  

As for MS doing nothing wrong or unethical: the only just reason for
disobeying
a bad law is to obey a higher law.  MS' behavior that has resulted in this
antitrust case is not because MS has been obeying some higher law IMHO.

Bennie Nelson

[remainder of original post snipped for brevity and clarity]

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From: b.l.nelson@larc.nasa.gov                          16-Dec-99 08:35:27
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 10:57:19
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Bennie Nelson <b.l.nelson@larc.nasa.gov>

Tim Rosnau wrote:
> 
> "Steven C. Britton" wrote:
> >
> > Bob Germer wrote:
> >
> > > > I never said that Microsoft wasn't breaking the law.  I said that the
> > > > laws were wrong, and I said that Microsoft had done nothing wrong.
> > >
> > > If MicroSoft broke the laws, which you acknowledge they did, then by
> > > definition they did wrong. You cannot have it any other way in the real
> > > world.
> >
> > I guess you're just too closed-minded to see that laws can, in fact, be
> > unjust, which means that someone doing something perfectly ethical can in
> > fact be breaking the law.
> 
> Could you please enlighten us with an example of somebody doing
> something ethical which is also against the law? (and please don't
> use Microsoft as an example)

It's called civil disobedience.  I can think of numerous examples.  How
about those who helped Jews escape from the Nazis?  I believe it was 
quite ethical to disobey the law by helping Jews at that time.

Bennie Nelson

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From: b.l.nelson@larc.nasa.gov                          16-Dec-99 08:43:24
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 10:57:19
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Bennie Nelson <b.l.nelson@larc.nasa.gov>

Bob Germer wrote:
> 
> On <3857d857_2@news.cadvision.com>, on 12/15/99 at 11:04 AM,
>    "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com> said:
> 
> > Bob Germer wrote:
> > >
> > > > That's what reality is all about.
> > >
> > > That is the basis of a Capitalistic economy, the most favorable system
yet
> > > invented by the minds of men.
> 
> > That is the basis of REALITY; the only system that exists.  It was not
> > invented by the minds of men: it is just the way the world works.
> 
> You obviously never learned anything in school. Unless you are a 4th grade
> dropout, you must have flunked history, slept through history class, or
> have an IQ lower than my dog's.
> 
> Economic systems are the invention of mankind. Capitalism, Feudalism,
> Socialism, Communism, etc. are all economic systems invented by men. The
> Native Americans didn't have an economic system unless one classifies
> slavery as an economic system. The nomads of Africa and the Middle East
> didn't have one. No animal population has an economic system.
> 
> Until the invention of systems of economy and government were invented,
> each family worked out a division of labor and made the tools it required
> to build shelter, make clothing, hunt or gather food, etc. Bartering
> between families was how goods were transferred between families. There
> was no money. The idea of ownership of land is the invention of men, not
> natural law.

Not true.  The theocracy dictated to Moses by God included a complete
economic system.  It even included antitrust laws.  For example, the year
of Jubilee laws would prevent the unbridled collection of wealth and land,
and hence, power.  Ownership of land and other forms of wealth, including
money were all included in the laws given to Moses.

Bennie Nelson

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From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           16-Dec-99 09:07:18
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 10:57:19
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <3858d764.3252671@news1.sympatico.ca>, on 12/16/99 at 12:18 PM,
   siberREMOVETHIS@sympatico.ca (E. Barry Bruyea) said:

> ATT Is still the largest L.D. carrier in the U.S., with profits,
> adjusted for inflation, higher than they were the year they were broken
> up. And the regionals substantially raised the cost (with impunity) of
> having a residential telephone, something ATT was never able to do.  

Your mileage may be different, but in terms of constant dollars, even my
local service is cheaper than it was pre-breakup. Actually, my typical
home bill runs about $175 for three lines for local service including many
options (caller ID, call blocking, *69, call waiting, etc.) not available
18 years ago. And much of the current bill is for calls to one of our
daughters with whom we spend better than half an hour a day talking on the
phone. Before we moved here 8 years ago, she was within our free calling
area as were the two people I spend a good deal of time conversing with
via telephone. We moved out from the more populated suburbs to the exurban
area and now pay for those calls.

Nonetheless, my average bill in 1985 for local service was still over $100
for only two lines. That bought far more food, car, house, etc. than $175
does today. I am looking at the paperwork for a car I bought in 1985. It
was a Plymouth Horizon 4 door with automatic transmission, power steering
and brakes, and AM-FM radio. It had cruise control and a heated rear
window as well. The price I paid, no trade, was $4,625 plus tax and
Chrysler Credit financed it for 4 years at 1% APR. Today, the Neon with
the identical equipment would cost me, net of rebate, over $9000 and there
ain't no such thing as 1% financing.

The identical townhouse we bought in 1985 for $88,500 in the newest
section of the same development now sells for $159,500.


--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------

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From: cocke@catherders.com                              16-Dec-99 10:50:29
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 13:28:01
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: Michael W. Cocke <cocke@catherders.com>

On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 14:31:03 +0100, Illya Vaes wrote:

>
>>At work, I support around 100 users who think a logon has something to do 
>>with a big tree.  Yeah, linux would go over real big...  (intense sarcasm).
>
>Sorry, but I am irritated by this attitude in our "IS" support too.
>If they (and you) did their work as support well, those users would have to
>know diddly squat about 'ls' etc.
>*You* OTOH would have to be able to grasp more than just point-and-drool.
>The users aren't paid to know about computers, software, etc.; you are.
>Of course, many a times "OK" IS staf will just be hindered by management, so
>that they can not put any time into setting up a good environment (that will
>subsequently be easier and cheaper to support); usually they just present
>"Windows" (read "Microsoft") as a prerequisite beyond discussion.

The first two sentences say most of it.  It's real easy to criticize 
when you don't have to do the job.  I want to talk to a few users at the
company where you manage the IS dept.



-------------------------------------------------------------------
         Please note:  My Email and web page addresses have changed!
                The new email address is cocke@catherders.com   
                 The web page is at http://www.catherders.com

               Because network administration is like herding cats.

-------------------------------------------------------------------



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From: siberREMOVETHIS@sympatico.ca                      16-Dec-99 16:12:22
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 13:28:01
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: siberREMOVETHIS@sympatico.ca (E. Barry Bruyea)

On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:07:36 -0500, Bob Germer
<bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com> wrote:

>On <3858d764.3252671@news1.sympatico.ca>, on 12/16/99 at 12:18 PM,
>   siberREMOVETHIS@sympatico.ca (E. Barry Bruyea) said:
>
>> ATT Is still the largest L.D. carrier in the U.S., with profits,
>> adjusted for inflation, higher than they were the year they were broken
>> up. And the regionals substantially raised the cost (with impunity) of
>> having a residential telephone, something ATT was never able to do.  
>
>Your mileage may be different, but in terms of constant dollars, even my
>local service is cheaper than it was pre-breakup. Actually, my typical
>home bill runs about $175 for three lines for local service including many
>options (caller ID, call blocking, *69, call waiting, etc.) not available
>18 years ago. And much of the current bill is for calls to one of our
>daughters with whom we spend better than half an hour a day talking on the
>phone. Before we moved here 8 years ago, she was within our free calling
>area as were the two people I spend a good deal of time conversing with
>via telephone. We moved out from the more populated suburbs to the exurban
>area and now pay for those calls.
>
>Nonetheless, my average bill in 1985 for local service was still over $100
>for only two lines. That bought far more food, car, house, etc. than $175
>does today. I am looking at the paperwork for a car I bought in 1985. It
>was a Plymouth Horizon 4 door with automatic transmission, power steering
>and brakes, and AM-FM radio. It had cruise control and a heated rear
>window as well. The price I paid, no trade, was $4,625 plus tax and
>Chrysler Credit financed it for 4 years at 1% APR. Today, the Neon with
>the identical equipment would cost me, net of rebate, over $9000 and there
>ain't no such thing as 1% financing.
>
>The identical townhouse we bought in 1985 for $88,500 in the newest
>section of the same development now sells for $159,500.



When I said residential phone bill, I assumed you understood I was
speaking of base rate. I lived in Texas at the breakup and within
three years my 'base' rate went from $11.32 per month to $29.00 and
two years later was $39.65.  My 'prime time' long distance calls were
roughly the same, with heavy discounting only available outside of
those hours. 
EBB

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From: bv@bigblue.no                                     16-Dec-99 16:38:23
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 13:28:01
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: bv@bigblue.no (Bj›rn Vermo)

On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 08:14:50, Jim Frost <jimf@frostbytes.com> wrote:

> 
> Maybe you can dig up Gartner's numbers for OS/2?  That would be helpful.  I
> would especially like it if you could find something that shows that NT
> requires 300% more support people.  Frankly speaking I think you're
confusing
> NT with Win9x.

I do not remember the exact numbers, but there was a Gartner survey 
early last year which indicated that the annual operating cost per 
seat could be very significantly decreased by WSOD, and that some 80% 
of the user base did not need more than the WSOD thin client on a 
low-end or old PC or diskless workstation. Managing such a mixture of 
thick and thin clients is quite cost effective, and saves around half 
the operating costs. As somebody remarked, this is why many banks (who
hate unrelability as much as to waste money) stick to OS/2.
> 
> Assuming that you're going to have as hard a time finding this info as I
did,
> let's analyze where the systems differ in terms of cost so that we can at
> least make some guesses as to relative expenditure.

You could always ask IBM - they seemed to be rather pleased with the 
report.
> 
> OS costs are lowest for Windows; $50 or so for Windows 9x preloaded, $150
for
> NT preloaded (most vendors sell NT upgrades for $100).  OS/2 can't be found
> preloaded from any significant hardware vendor so you're looking at
something
> like $250 per seat (including the $50 you had to spend on Windows 9x because
> of the monopoly arrangement).  

IBM may not be a significant hardware vendor where you come from, but 
they are consistently one of the top three in the PC market here - not
to mention that they sell some rather heavier iron, too. As for 
others, I picked up the system I use right now from the shop around 
the corner with no OS installed. Admittedly, it comes from an 
insignificant company called A-Open, but the price/performance is good
and it is easy to run down and complain if there should be anything 
wrong with it.

Checking the mail order catalogs, I notice that the one-off cost of 
Warp 4 is just mid between Win98 and NT Workstation. A minimum NT 
server is cheaper than the WSeB, but if you need more than two CPUs or
a handful users the NT will soon become more expensive. If you compare
ready to run systems, you will also have to include extra management 
and backup software for the NT server. 

If you need more than a handful seats, buying OS/2 "right to copy" 
licences at corporate rates will soon make NT even more expensive in 
relation to OS/2. Using CID installs or WSOD will save a lot of 
installation effort in big networks. I doubt the total picture is all 
that much in favour of NT, especially after seeing who long it took a 
couple of whiz-kid programmers to install NT Workstation on their new 
computers last week.

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From: chdove@home.com                                   16-Dec-99 16:39:00
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 13:28:01
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: chdove@home.com (Clive Dove)

On Wed, 15 Dec 1999 14:27:46, "Kim Cheung" 
<kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 15 Dec 1999 08:25:17 -0500, Jim Frost wrote:
> 
> >Kim Cheung wrote:
> >> >This is a great idea. Have you done any projections on "in the home"
cost of
> >> >implementing Concorde? As I see it, it looks a bit expensive.
> >> 
> >> "Expensive" is always a relative term - of course.
> >> 
> >> The "in the home" cost will be determined purely by the qty produced and
> >> that's why we wanted to get some sense of that using a survey.    I would 
say
> >> you shouldn't expect it to be less than a "few" hundred dollars.
> >
> >Keeping in mind that I wasn't able to find any information at all on
Concorde
> >looking at Serenity Systems' website:
> >
> >If the cost is going to be in the, say, $300 range one wonders why you
> >wouldn't just buy a whole other machine to run Windows.  It's not like it'd
> >cost a lot more (or, probably, any more at all once you got done buying
> >Windows and the basic application suite retail versus getting it bundled).
> >
> >Or, more generally: What's the point of an expensive software solution when
> >hardware is so cheap?
> >
> 
> Why?   Because for the enterprise, the cost of the hardware is not the issue
> here.   Imagine having 64,000 desktops that has to have 2 monitors, 2
> computers, and so forth.   The TCO for ONE desktop is high enough - now you
> need to double that?
> 
> Besides, the two "brains" will be communicating with each other at PCI bus
> speed: not network speed.   We intend to make it as seamless as possible to
> the point where it will be pretty much like a Win-OS/2 session within OS/2.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

Of course it is not necessary to have two machines to run two 
operating systems, it is only necessary to partition your drive to 
provide an extra primary for the second operating system and to use 
the Boot Manager that comes with OS/2.

The real problem that I have, that this program possibly could deal 
with is that my government has written a title search and registration
program that all lawyers must use, but it only works on win95, Win98 
or WinNT, so every time I want to search a title or register a deed I 
have to shut down all running tasks on that machine and reboot to the 
other operating system.


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From: malstrom@wilde.oit.umass.edu                      16-Dec-99 12:14:14
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 16:52:15
Subj: Re: OS2 comes in 9th (Re: OS2 garners 'OTHER' status in operating syste

From: Jason <malstrom@wilde.oit.umass.edu>

This is the same counter which gives Internet Explorer 76% market share, 
and Netscape 19%.  It also puts Opera barely above Netscape 2.x, so I 
don't think I'm going to use it as a scale of which programs are the most 
valuable.

-Jason 

uno@40th.com <uno@40th.com> wrote:

: For hard-hitting, knock-out numbers, click on this link.  It has OS2
: numbers (9th place, right ahead of ... Amiga):

:  http://www.thecounter.com/stats/December/os.html

:  Summary

:   Windows*: about 216,550 thousand hits (216+ million)
:        OS2: about      38 thousand hits
:      Amiga: about      23 thousand hits

: To put this into perspective, hits using this counter are 5700 times
: more likely to be from a Win* OS than from OS2.  At least OS2 is showing.
: There's no way to spin out of this: OS2 users are going, going... (to
: Amiga?).

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From: cbass2112@my-deja.com                             16-Dec-99 17:19:20
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 16:52:15
Subj: Re: When will it be 100% done?

From: cbass2112@my-deja.com

In article <3858e4f9$6$obot$mr2ice@news.pics.com>,
  Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com> wrote:

-- snip --

> Why do I have a mental picture of Forest Gump when I read your drivel?

Beats me. Whatever fantasies are playing out in your head are of little
concern to me. Also, you should consider your own advice:

"How I choose to use the language in my writings is mine. If you don't
like it, then don't read it."  Germer -- 12/14/1999

> I know. As Forest said, "Stupid is as stupid does."

As your posts often illustrate.

> Where is invective in my post? Canuck? No, just a shorter way of
> saying Canadian.

Kindly point out where I have objected to the use of the word "Canuck"
and I will concede that maybe, just maybe, you have something resembling
a point.

> Ignoramus? No. Just demonstrated fact by your posts.

In spite of the fact that Marty's headers plainly state that he's
posting from OS/2, you claimed:

"I don't believe you use or are capable of using OS/2."
Germer -- 12/12/1999

And you call me "ignoramus" . . .

Glass houses, throwing stones, etc.


Curtis


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

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From: cstumpf@monmouth.com                              16-Dec-99 12:57:18
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 16:52:15
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: "Chris Stumpf" <cstumpf@monmouth.com>

On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 03:14:50 -0500, Jim Frost wrote:

--snip--

:>Unfortunately I have been unable to find a single TCO number for OS/2.  I
:>found a lot for various Windows systems, but this article is the most
:>informative:
:>
:>http://www2.computerworld.com/home/online9697.nsf/All/971216gartner1B35A

I've been aware of that summary for quite some time.  Basically it says this.
 A Win95/98 PC costs $10,000 per year for TCO and a thin client or NT based
ZAK system costs between $6400 and $7900 approx per year TCO.

:>Maybe you can dig up Gartner's numbers for OS/2?  That would be helpful.  I
:>would especially like it if you could find something that shows that NT
:>requires 300% more support people.  Frankly speaking I think you're
confusing
:>NT with Win9x.


No confusion on my part.  I got the 300% more support people number from some
simple extrapolation of available facts.  Fact 1, Microsoft claims that using
the ZAK NT model, a single administrator can support 200-250 users, 300 max. 
Fact 2, there are quite a few very large banks using OS/2 in a RIPL boot
environment and they have been supporting 1200-1600 users per administrator
for years.  I was being generous with the 300% number as you can see.

:>Assuming that you're going to have as hard a time finding this info as I
did,
:>let's analyze where the systems differ in terms of cost so that we can at
:>least make some guesses as to relative expenditure.


--snip--

:>So far we've come up pretty much dead even for OS/2 and NT in terms of
capital
:>costs: 

--snip--

:>So where are the big cost differences?  In a word, upkeep.

Agreed.

:>Hardware reliability is the same for all of these systems, seeing as it's
all
:>the same hardware.  It may suck, but it sucks for all of them.  So that's
not
:>it.
:>
:>But maintaining the OS and applications -- meaning the number of times IT
has
:>to come and repair a system that somehow got messed up, and the time they
:>spend doing it -- here we see big differences.
:>

--snip--

This is too true.

:>OS/2 has the same problem that Windows 9x does in that it's really easy to
:>destroy system software (that "I deleted stuff" problem again).  

--snip--


There are a few things you are forgetting.  There are plenty of utilites,
commercial, shareware and freeware to lock down the desktop and prevent stuff
like that for OS/2.  Second.  In large environments, the use of remote access
tools like Netop, RSM or PCAnywhere can save a bundle in support time and
costs.  Third, OS/2 can be ripl booted, this is where the OS and applications
are loaded over the network from the server and executed locally on the
workstation.  OS/2 has had the ability for 10 years.  Using RIPL, even if a
user deleted key files, since they are on a server and it is easy to back up,
they can quickly be restored.  Or using a product like WiseManager from
Serenity Systems, the machine can be completely rebuilt in a matter of
minutes.  Basically the only reason to go to a users workstation is to
replace bad hardware or upgrade existing hardware.  Everything is done from
the server with great efficiency.  

:>But NT ... well, NT is interesting from the POV of an administrator because
:>you can seriously lock it down such that it's really quite hard to muck with
:>the system software or applications.  No new software, no modifications to
old
:>software, no ability to delete software.  Its big problem is that you have
to
:>go visit each system to install or upgrade software (that registry thing is
:>just a cluster-fuck in terms of group system management) though of course
:>there are some fairly expensive tools out there to minimize that.  (I think
:>those tools mostly shift the costs from labor to capital, rather than really
:>saving anything, but YMMV.)  But if you want to install a fixed set of
:>software and leave it alone, well, NT is real good for that.
:>

You pretty much said it all about NT here.  

:>My personal choice for administering a boatload of systems is one or another
:>UNIX system.  It's just so damned easy to lock them down against user
fiddling
:>and to maintain them in bulk remotely.  Unfortunately client software is
darn
:>near nonexistant and the quality of what's there often leaves something to
be
:>desired.  But if you can get software it's really hard to beat the TCO of
:>something like Linux.
:>

OS/2 can do this as easily as Unix.

:>Where you're making assumptions that may not hold is that you believe that
:>it's cheaper to keep using what you've got than it is to replace it.

--snip--

I never made the assumption that it is cheaper to keep using what I've got. 
I stated that OS/2 requires less hardware than NT to accomplish the same
tasks.  Here is a number for you.  I can provide a workstations and the
servers to support them for an organization for 50%-70% less than the numbers
for the NC or NT ZAK solutions in the article you pointed me to.  Here is a
the configuration.  PC or IBM 2800 with 64 megs ram, full sound capability
and no hard drive.  Software:  Office suite, Web browser other software used
for general office use.  Cost per workstation, $200 per month per workstation
on a 2 year contract.  I provide all the support for the workstations.  TCO
for the customer is $2400 per year per workstation.  This number works for a
site with 5-50 workstations.  With more workstations and depending on the
configuration, I can bring that number down to $150 per workstation.  The
beauty of it all is that I can administer it remotely.  Once I have a site
setup, it takes almost no effort to administer it.


:>Whether or not one of those good alternatives is OS/2 is quite debatable. 
IBM
:>has seriously curtailed ongoing development of the system; it has been in
:>maintenance mode for a couple of years, and we've even heard of potential
:>cut-off dates for that (2006 wasn't it?).  Drivers for a lot of new hardware
:>are impossible to get.  Very few ISVs continue to build -- or even maintain
--
:>software for it.

Let's see, Win95 support ended when Win98 was released and WinNT support is
going to go bye-bye when Win2000 is released.  MS stops support for old
products when they release a new product.  BTW, the cutoff date for OS/2
support you are refering to is for free support, you can still get support
from IBM for old products, you just have to pay for it.

:>In summary: I think OS/2 has higher TCO than a well-managed NT system.

You are wrong, as I illustrated above.

:>Rebuttal?

I think I rebutted you nicely.


		Chris Stumpf
		C.S.E. Computer Services
		Computer Consultant (OS/2, Lan, Wan, CTI)
		Serenity Systems Channel Partner
		IBM Certified Systems Expert - OS/2 Warp 4
		

web:    http://cse.anterras.net
email:	cse@anterras.net
phone: (732)496-4699



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From: lucien@metrowerks.com                             16-Dec-99 18:01:29
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 16:52:15
Subj: Re: Navigator 4.7 is available!! OS/2 is behind again!!

From: lucien@metrowerks.com

In article <839kup$oja$2@news.hawaii.edu>,
  tholenantispam@hawaii.edu wrote:
> Lucien writes:
> > Your contention that the sentence is not underlyingly ambiguous
>
> Where is that alleged contention?

1) Here is the JDK sentence:

"OS/2 Java 1.1.8 implements Java 1.2 functionality. "

Is this sentence ambiguous WRT quantification?

2) In light of your answer to the question posed in item #1, explain
why the two variants of the JDK sentence presented below are
grammatical, coherent sentences of English:

"OS/2 Java 1.1.8 implements some Java 1.2 functionality."

"OS/2 Java 1.1.8 implements all Java 1.2 functionality."


Lucien S.


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

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From: kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com               16-Dec-99 10:05:12
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 16:52:15
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: "Kim Cheung" <kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com>

On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 03:43:00 -0500, Jim Frost wrote:

>You're basically betting that the customer has so much tied up in OS/2 that
>they can't afford to let it go, but they need those Windows applications bad
>enough to pay hundreds of dollars extra on your stuff to get them.

May be you should convince a certain leading freight company to complete
rewrite their package handling system so they can run a few Windows program
then?


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From: kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com               16-Dec-99 10:07:05
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 16:52:15
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: "Kim Cheung" <kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com>

On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 07:10:09 -0500, Michael W. Cocke wrote:

>My $0.02

Thank you, Mike.


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From: cstumpf@monmouth.com                              16-Dec-99 13:11:15
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 16:52:15
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: "Chris Stumpf" <cstumpf@monmouth.com>

I would love to watch that!  I've been waiting for someone to take you up on
that challenge.  It looks like everyone is afraid to put their money where
their mouth is.  So, I dare anyone to take Kim up on his challenge.  Or since
I'm sure no one will, we can all assume that windows would lose miserably.


On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 10:00:10 -0500 (EST), Kim Cheung wrote:

:>On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 03:14:50 -0500, Jim Frost wrote:
:>
:>>Rebuttal?
:>
:>None needed.    Seeing is believing.    
:>
:>Look up my $50,000 open chanllenge to anybody in this forum.    Not a single
:>person dared to take me up on it - yet.
:>
:>May be you will?
:>
:>Legal binding contract - money in escrow up front.
:>
:>Should I sent you the contract?


		Chris Stumpf
		C.S.E. Computer Services
		Computer Consultant (OS/2, Lan, Wan, CTI)
		Serenity Systems Channel Partner
		IBM Certified Systems Expert - OS/2 Warp 4
		

web:    http://cse.anterras.net
email:	cse@anterras.net
phone: (732)496-4699



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From: hemo_jr@attglobal.net                             16-Dec-99 12:06:24
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 16:52:15
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: hemo_jr@attglobal.net (Matt Hickman)

In <PmRGDiEz74Uh-pn2-Pckj9ngdgRci@24.64.171.183.on.wave.home.com>, on 12/16/99 

   at 04:39 PM, chdove@home.com (Clive Dove) said:

>Of course it is not necessary to have two machines to run two  operating
>systems, it is only necessary to partition your drive to  provide an
>extra primary for the second operating system and to use  the Boot
>Manager that comes with OS/2.

Novell & IBM had a product a couple of years ago which allowed you to 
run a Netware server and and OS/2 simultaneously on the same
PC.  This was done by partitioning memory, disk space and CPU
cycles between the two OS's.  Don't know if the product is still
available.  They would talk to each other via a loopback driver
and the OS/2 would talk to the network via an NDIS to ODI mapping
and use the Netware servers driver.  You could even run the Netware
UI as an OS/2 window.

I would like to do something like this with a multiple CPU machine 
and support OS/2, NT and Linux all on the same machine at the same
time.  One keyboard on monitor and Three OSes running on the same
PC at the same time each having  pseudo network access to the other,
and having access to the net using a single wire into the PC.

With the CPU speeds, large HDs and low memory costs the way they are
today, something like this could fly.

-- 
Matt Hickman   
     He stepped to the machine and pressed a stud.  A 
     photostat popped out Monroe-Alpha unclipped it and handed it to 
     Hamilton without looking at it.  He had no need to -- the proper data
     had been fed into the computer; he knew with quiet certainty
     that the correct answer would come out.
                         - Robert A. Heinlein (1907-1988)
                          _Beyond this Horizon_ (c. 1942)

** Join the SETI@home club "The Heinleiners" go to
http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/stats/team/team_17222.html


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From: kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com               16-Dec-99 10:00:05
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 16:52:15
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: "Kim Cheung" <kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com>

On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 03:14:50 -0500, Jim Frost wrote:

>Rebuttal?

None needed.    Seeing is believing.    

Look up my $50,000 open chanllenge to anybody in this forum.    Not a single
person dared to take me up on it - yet.

May be you will?

It's so easy to just blow hot-air.    Be a doer.

Okay, in case you missed it.   My challenge is very simple: take a room full
of PCs (the more the better), I'll take half and you take half.    You do
whatever you think these systems should be setup to run your beloved Windows
(any version), and I'll set up my.    Then I'll give you 10 minutes to "play"
with my half of the PCs, and I get to "play" with yours for 10 minutes.   
From then on, we start a timer.   For each minute pass I can not get my Pcs
back to 100% working condition, I'll pay you $1000 - up to $50,000.   
Likewise, for each minute pass you can not get your Pcs back to 100% working
condition, you pay me $1000 - up to $50,000.    (No physical damage or bios
screwing, of course - that wouldn't proof a thing).

Legal binding contract - money in escrow up front.

Should I sent you the contract?


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From: kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com               16-Dec-99 10:02:22
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 16:52:15
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: "Kim Cheung" <kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com>

On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 16:39:00 GMT, Clive Dove wrote:

>The real problem that I have, that this program possibly could deal 
>with is that my government has written a title search and registration
>program that all lawyers must use, but it only works on win95, Win98 
>or WinNT, so every time I want to search a title or register a deed I 
>have to shut down all running tasks on that machine and reboot to the 
>other operating system.

That's precisely why multi-boot is not acceptable - particularly if the OS/2
side is running your LOB (line of business) application.

Concorde solves that problem.


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From: hemo_jr@attglobal.net                             16-Dec-99 12:26:24
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 16:52:15
Subj: Re: OS/2 1.1

From: hemo_jr@attglobal.net (Matt Hickman)

In <38551CC4.C4428E7B@dca.net>, on 12/13/99 
   at 11:20 AM, Bruce Kitchin <kitchin@dca.net> said:

>If you get the disks from someone (I don't have mine anymore), there is
>one possible problem.  OS/2 prior to version 1.3 was very hardward
>sensitive. The IBM versions ran only on IBM computers or very close
>compatibles. Mine were from HP since I had an HP computer.  So if you get
>them and they give you trouble, you may want to try various computers to
>see if there is one that is more compatible.

I used my MS diskettes on various PC makes.  I think if the machine is
truely PC campatible with EGA emulation for video etc and has a small IDE 
drive, it would work.  I dumped  my diskettes 10 years ago during a move
so I now longer have them.

-- 
Matt Hickman
     The firecontrol computer machines, chewing with millisecond
     mediation data from the analog, decide whether or not torpedoes
     can reach the target, then offer four answers: ballistic
     'possible' or 'impossible' for projected condition, yes or no
     for condition changed by one ship, or the other, or both, through
     cutting power.  These answers automatic circuits could handle 
     alone, but machines do not think.  Half of each computer is 
     designed to allow the operator to ask what the situation might 
     be in the far future of five minutes or so from now if variables
     change... 
          - Robert A. Heinlein _Citizen of the Galaxy_

** Join the SETI@home club "The Heinleiners" go to
http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/stats/team/team_17222.html


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: Alan_Baker@bc.sympatico.ca                        16-Dec-99 10:36:00
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 16:52:15
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: Alan Baker <Alan_Baker@bc.sympatico.ca>

In article <%gV54.3904$07.105347@news1.rdc1.ab.home.com>, 
jenuths@homacjen.ab.ca wrote:

>In can.politics Alan Baker <Alan_Baker@bc.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>> Except, of course, for the fact that there is no way to guarantee that a 
>> future government might change the benefits the plan will pay out. If 
>> down the road the feds decide they need the money you may find that you 
>> may not be getting the pension you expected and paid for.
>
>Perhaps.  But then that is really up to the provincial governments who
>control this sort of thing.
>
>As you know, the federal government does not unilaterally decide the
>payouts or the premiums.

Other than for Quebec (which has its own separate plan) yes it does.

<http://www.hrdc-drhc.gc.ca/isp/cpp/retire_e.shtml>

Please read and quote the provinces' involvement in setting payouts.

-- 
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from that wall to that
wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you sit in the 
bottom of that cupboard."

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From: kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com               16-Dec-99 10:33:13
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 16:52:15
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: "Kim Cheung" <kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com>

On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:57:37 -0500 (EST), Chris Stumpf wrote:

>Or using a product like WiseManager from
>Serenity Systems, the machine can be completely rebuilt in a matter of
>minutes.

Urrrr... not minutes, Chris - make that ....seconds...


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: jenuths@homacjen.ab.ca                            16-Dec-99 19:05:02
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 16:52:15
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: jenuths@homacjen.ab.ca

In can.politics Alan Baker <Alan_Baker@bc.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> In article <%gV54.3904$07.105347@news1.rdc1.ab.home.com>, 
> jenuths@homacjen.ab.ca wrote:

>>In can.politics Alan Baker <Alan_Baker@bc.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> Except, of course, for the fact that there is no way to guarantee that a 
>>> future government might change the benefits the plan will pay out. If 
>>> down the road the feds decide they need the money you may find that you 
>>> may not be getting the pension you expected and paid for.
>>
>>Perhaps.  But then that is really up to the provincial governments who
>>control this sort of thing.
>>
>>As you know, the federal government does not unilaterally decide the
>>payouts or the premiums.

> Other than for Quebec (which has its own separate plan) yes it does.

> <http://www.hrdc-drhc.gc.ca/isp/cpp/retire_e.shtml>

> Please read and quote the provinces' involvement in setting payouts.

I checked the page you cited and unfortunately the word "province"
is not even found on it.

Perhaps you would best look at the Canada Pension Plan, and in
particular, section 114(4) which provides the answer to the
debate.

I'll quote it below so there can be no doubt that provincial
consent is needed to change premiums.

Coming into force of other amendments of substance 

(4) Where any enactment of Parliament contains any provision that alters, or
the effect of which is to alter, either directly or indirectly and either
immediately
or in the future,

(a) the general level of benefits provided by this Act,

(b) the classes of benefits provided by this Act,

(c) the contribution rate for employees, employers or self-employed persons
for
any year,

(d) the formulae for calculating the contributions and benefits payable under
this
Act,

(e) the management or operation of the Canada Pension Plan Account or the
Canada Pension Plan Investment Fund, or

(f) the Canada Pension Plan Investment Board Act,

it shall be deemed to be a term of that enactment, whether or not it is
expressly
stated in the enactment, that the provision shall come into force only on a
day to
be fixed by order of the Governor in Council, which order may not be made and
shall not in any case have any force or effect unless the lieutenant governor
in
council of each of at least two thirds of the included provinces, having in
the
aggregate not less than two thirds of the population of all of the included
provinces, has signified the consent of that province to the enactment.

In short, nothing can be changed without the consent of 2/3 of the included
provinces (all except Quebec) having at least 2/3 of the population of 
the included provinces.

-- 
Best regards,

Stephen Jenuth
(jenuths@homacjen.ab.ca)

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: cstumpf@monmouth.com                              16-Dec-99 13:52:08
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 16:52:16
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: "Chris Stumpf" <cstumpf@monmouth.com>

I was using worst case numbers.  Using typical number makes our claims too
unbelievable to those that don't understand or have not seen.

On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 10:33:26 -0500 (EST), Kim Cheung wrote:

:>On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:57:37 -0500 (EST), Chris Stumpf wrote:
:>
:>>Or using a product like WiseManager from
:>>Serenity Systems, the machine can be completely rebuilt in a matter of
:>>minutes.
:>
:>Urrrr... not minutes, Chris - make that ....seconds...
:>
:>


		Chris Stumpf
		C.S.E. Computer Services
		Computer Consultant (OS/2, Lan, Wan, CTI)
		Serenity Systems Channel Partner
		IBM Certified Systems Expert - OS/2 Warp 4
		

web:    http://cse.anterras.net
email:	cse@anterras.net
phone: (732)496-4699



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From: kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com               16-Dec-99 12:13:23
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 16:52:16
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: "Kim Cheung" <kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com>

On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 13:52:17 -0500 (EST), Chris Stumpf wrote:

>I was using worst case numbers.  Using typical number makes our claims too
>unbelievable to those that don't understand or have not seen.

For the built, worst case CAN take a few minute - but for the rebuilt, it
takes seconds.


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From: tsipple@us.iNoSPAMbm.com                          16-Dec-99 14:01:13
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 16:52:16
Subj: Cost of Ownership 

From: Timothy Sipples <tsipple@us.iNoSPAMbm.com>

Last time I checked, the math worked something like this:

- OS/2 Warp "fat client" has about a 20% lower total cost of ownership than
Windows NT
- WorkSpace On-Demand (either flavor, but particularly the Optimized Client)
has a
  roughly 40% lower total cost of ownership than Windows NT

These figures represent the average of conservative third party models.  (In
other words, they could be underestimates.  There's some anecdotal evidence
to suggest that.)  The figures seem to be confirmed by what customers tell
us themselves.

By the way, IBM's services arm is very enthusiastic about helping companies
adopt Windows 2000.  It constitutes a large amount of services revenue, and
if companies are willing to spend the money, we're happy to help.  :-)

Some companies obviously choose Windows despite the fact that, on average,
it has a higher total cost.  If the benefits of that choice exceed the
higher cost, for each given user, then it's a wise business decision.  But
frankly we (IBM) would (generally :-)) like to see technology costs headed
lower, not higher.  Network computing and e-business is in large part about
lowering costs.

Chris Stumpf wrote:
> :>COO for NT is way lower than either OS/2 or Win9x (you can easily lock
down
> :>the configuration against changes, deliberate or accidental); it's a
really
> :>viable corporate system at this point and still way cheaper than this
product.
> Show us something to back up your claims that Cost of Ownership is lower for
> NT that OS/2.  NT requrires more hardware than OS/2 and more support people
> per x number of users than OS/2.  There are banks using OS/2 that won't drop
> it for NT because banks hate spending money and if they switched to NT, they
> would need 3-4 times the number of support personnel and ALL new hardware
> from servers to desktops.

-- 
Timothy Sipples
IBM Network Computing Software
Chicago, Illinois
Web: http://www.satdirect.com/aviation

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From: jglatt@spamgone-borg.com                          16-Dec-99 20:21:18
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 16:52:16
Subj: Re: Navigator 4.7 is available!! OS/2 is behind again!!

From: jglatt@spamgone-borg.com (Jeff Glatt)

>Ian "The Moron" Tholen
>The
>fact that I commented on the logic of the sentence, while you
>inferred a comment about the grammaticality of the sentence,
>demonstrates some sort of problem on your part, Lucien.

This is especially hypocritical, even of an appallingly dimwitted
hypocrite like Tholen, given that he's arguing with Curtis in this
same thread over the "grammaticality" of putting a preposition at the
beginning or end of a phrase, whereas Curtis is talking about logical
meaning of his sentence itself.

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From: spamtrap@cds-inc.com                              16-Dec-99 19:47:12
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 16:52:16
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: spamtrap@cds-inc.com (Brad Benson)

"Kim Cheung" <kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com> wrote:

] On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:57:37 -0500 (EST), Chris Stumpf wrote:
] 
] >Or using a product like WiseManager from
] >Serenity Systems, the machine can be completely rebuilt in a matter of
] >minutes.
] 
] Urrrr... not minutes, Chris - make that ....seconds...
] 

How is that possible?  Virtually all PCs take at least a minute to
boot from the time you press the power switch.  If you're excluding
the time needed to boot the operating system, load the disaster
recovery software, etc. then maybe it's possible.




Cheers,

Brad
replace "spamtrap" with "benson" in my reply address

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From: cstumpf@monmouth.com                              16-Dec-99 15:34:17
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 16:52:16
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: "Chris Stumpf" <cstumpf@monmouth.com>

It's possible with a piece of software called WiseManager from Serenity
Systems.  Basically it is a graphical managment tool to make dealing with
RIPL booted workstations a simple drag and drop operation.  And by simple, I
mean simple.  Need to install a new email client on 30,000 machines, just
setup the program on the server and drag and drop it once.  It is now
installed on all workstations.  Rebuilding a messedup machine is a simple
menu item mouse click.  Boot time over the network is much faster than from a
hard disk due to caching.  Give me a call if you need more information my
number is in my sig.


On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 19:47:25 GMT, Brad Benson wrote:

:>] 
:>
:>How is that possible?  Virtually all PCs take at least a minute to
:>boot from the time you press the power switch.  If you're excluding
:>the time needed to boot the operating system, load the disaster
:>recovery software, etc. then maybe it's possible.
:>


		Chris Stumpf
		C.S.E. Computer Services
		Computer Consultant (OS/2, Lan, Wan, CTI)
		Serenity Systems Channel Partner
		IBM Certified Systems Expert - OS/2 Warp 4
		

web:    http://cse.anterras.net
email:	cse@anterras.net
phone: (732)496-4699



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From: mbcc1NOmbSPAM@attglobal.net.invalid               16-Dec-99 13:38:09
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 16:52:16
Subj: Re: do you have OS/2 1.1?

From: MikeB <mbcc1NOmbSPAM@attglobal.net.invalid>

I have IBM 2.1 and copied diskettes for 2.11 if you're not
able to obtain copies from IBM.  Will either of these help?


* Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related 
Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping.  Smart is Beautiful

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com               16-Dec-99 12:40:05
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 16:52:16
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: "Kim Cheung" <kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com>

On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 19:47:25 GMT, Brad Benson wrote:

>How is that possible?  Virtually all PCs take at least a minute to
>boot from the time you press the power switch.  If you're excluding
>the time needed to boot the operating system, load the disaster
>recovery software, etc. then maybe it's possible.

Brad,

We are talking about the 'rebuid' time - not boot time.


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From: sbritton@cadvision.com                            16-Dec-99 14:45:19
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 19:47:15
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com>

Stephen Untruth wrote:
>
> > And if the premiums were eliminated, employers and employees could set
up
> > matched plans at the same rate and earn a far better return.
>
> Somehow I doubt it.  A large group plan is certainly more efficient
> on things like this.

Bull.

I'm getting between 10 and 12% on my group plan, and I'm getting 15% on my
private plan.  The CPP gives a return of about 1%.

Pathetic.

> > In my lifetime, I will put in tens of thousands of dollars in CPP
premiums;
> > and what do I get when I retire?
>
> The CPP will provide for the minimum.  You may choose to invest in RRSPs
and
> all of that.

Big deal.  If the money I invested in the CPP was put away in my own private
plan, the results would be far superior.

Face it, Stephen the CPP is a dismal failure.

>  A flat income of about $8900 a year -- not
> > enough to live on.  Not only that, but the rate of return on investment
is
> > about 1.2%, which is far LESS than the 15% I'm doing on my mutual funds
> > right now.
>
> That's why the federal government negotiated with the provinces to
> change the investment strategy of the fund.
>
> If only those provinces were not in the way, this would have been
> done years ago.

If only the government stayed out of people's lives, this problem wouldn't
exist at all.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
What have YOU done to bust a union today?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Work better: Work union-free.

Steven C. Britton
Calgary

www.cadvision.com/sbritton



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From: jenuths@homacjen.ab.ca                            16-Dec-99 22:43:29
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 19:47:15
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: jenuths@homacjen.ab.ca

In can.politics Steven C. Britton <sbritton@cadvision.com> wrote:

> Big deal.  If the money I invested in the CPP was put away in my own private
> plan, the results would be far superior.

Tell me.  What would be the annual cost for you to provide the
CPP benefits other than the retirement pension.

-- 
Best regards,

Stephen Jenuth
(jenuths@homacjen.ab.ca)

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.

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From: tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu                16-Dec-99 17:05:18
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 19:47:15
Subj: Re: Dimsdale digest, volume 2451514

From: tholenbot <tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu>

In article <385881E1.4AD1607B@stny.rr.com>, Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> 
wrote:

> Eric Bennett wrote (using a pseudonym again):
> > 
> > In article <38573CC6.D9A33756@stny.rr.com>, Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>
> > wrote:
> > 
> > > Eric Bennett wrote (using a pseudonym again):
> > 
> > What alleged "pseudonym", Marty?
> 
> No, not Marty.

More evidence of your reading comprehension problems.

> > > > In article <38573242.9067CFC5@stny.rr.com>, Marty 
> > > > <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Eric Bennett wrote (using a pseudonym again):
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In article <3856FA01.70DADCB1@stny.rr.com>, Marty
> > > > > > <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Eric Bennett wrote (using a pseudonym again):
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >, as you predictably deleted my answer to the
> > > > > > > > > question for your own entertainment purposes.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Illogical, given that there wasn't any answer for me to 
> > > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > deleted.  Seeing things that aren't there again, Chris?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > How ironic, coming from the person who admitted to wearing 
> > > > > > > dirty
> > > > > > > glasses
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What alleged admission, Marty?
> > > > >
> > > > > I see that you, once again, felt the need to destroy the context 
> > > > > of
> > > > > my post.
> > > >
> > > > Seeing things that aren't there again, Marty?
> > >
> > > How ironic, coming from the person who admitted to wearing dirty 
> > > glasses.
> > 
> > Argument by repetitive unsubstantiated claims, Marty?  How predictable.

Note: no logical response.
 
> > > > > Here is what I originally wrote back:
> > > >
> > > > Illogical.
> > >
> > > Not at all, Eric.  More evidence of your reading comprehension 
> > > problems.
> > > Perhaps if you'd respond to what I wrote instead of what you wanted 
> > > me to
> > > write you'd have less trouble comprehending it.
> > 
> > See what I mean?
> 
> Not at all, Eric. 

Have you visited your eye doctor recently, Marty?

> More evidence of your reading comprehension problems. 

On what basis do you make this claim?

> Perhaps if you'd respond to what I wrote instead of what you wanted me to 
> write
> you'd have less trouble comprehending it.

Irrelevant, given that I current have no trouble comprehending it.
  
> > > > > M] How ironic, coming from the person who admitted to wearing 
> > > > > dirty
> > > > > glasses.
> > > > >
> > > > > Perhaps if you'd respond to what I wrote instead of what you 
> > > > > wanted
> > > > > me to
> > > > > write you'd have less trouble comprehending it
> > > >
> > > > I see you didn't answer the question, Marty.  How predictable.  
> > > > Where
> > > > is the alleged admission of wearing dirty glasses, Marty?  Why, 
> > > > nowhere 
> > > > to be seen!
> > >
> > > I see that you, once again, felt the need to destroy the context of 
> > > my
> > > post.  Here is what I originally wrote back:
> > >
> > > M] Perhaps if you'd respond to what I wrote instead of what you 
> > > wanted me
> > > M] to write you'd have less trouble comprehending it.
> > >
> > > Perhaps if you'd respond to what I wrote instead of what you wanted 
> > > me to
> > > write you'd have less trouble comprehending it.
> > 
> > I see you didn't answer the question, Marty.
> 
> Check again, after cleaning your dirty glasses.

Illogical.
 
> > How predictable.
> 
> It was predictable that you would fail to locate my answer.

Poppycock.
 
> > Where is the alleged admission of wearing dirty glasses, Marty?
> 
> Your continued reading comprehension problems are enough of an admission.

Typical erroneous and unsubstantiated claim.
 
> > Why, nowhere to be seen!
> 
> Still can't see past the dirt on your glasses Eric?

What alleged "dirt"?
 
> > I do not 'approve' phrases.
> 
> On what basis do you make this claim?

Butchering the context again, Marty?  How predictable.
 
> > -Dave Tholen
> 
> Non sequitur.

Common sense makes a cameo appearance.

-- 
I do not 'approve' phrases.
-Dave Tholen

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From: chdove@home.com                                   16-Dec-99 23:28:22
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 03:47:21
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: chdove@home.com (Clive Dove)

On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 15:02:45, "Kim Cheung" 
<kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 16:39:00 GMT, Clive Dove wrote:
> 
> >The real problem that I have, that this program possibly could deal 
> >with is that my government has written a title search and registration
> >program that all lawyers must use, but it only works on win95, Win98 
> >or WinNT, so every time I want to search a title or register a deed I 
> >have to shut down all running tasks on that machine and reboot to the 
> >other operating system.
> 
> That's precisely why multi-boot is not acceptable - particularly if the OS/2
> side is running your LOB (line of business) application.
> 
> Concorde solves that problem.
> 
> 

It sounds like what I need.
As I do not have the beginning of this thread, I would appreciate 
someone posting the url where I can get more information. 

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: glen@rockyhorror.Zkaroo.co.uk                     16-Dec-99 23:39:20
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 03:47:21
Subj: Re: question about OS/2's memory managment and ...

From: glen@rockyhorror.Zkaroo.co.uk (Glen)

On Wed, 15 Dec 1999 11:18:44, "Trancser" <jbergman@ixc.ixc.net> wrote:

<snip>
> 
> I hope that (if the OS/2 source code WAS REALLY released ...OR is just out
> there SOMEWHERE) someone out there MIGHT ....be able to DO something with it
> .....and not for another OS either...for OS/2! But do something nice with
it.
> Oh well....I'm just hopelessly wishing there.
> 
> but uh....heh... IF someone WERE to do something with it, maybe re-design
the
> hpfs driver (and whatever else needs modifying) and give the ability to
> either be able to control disk cache, or have it dynamically resizable
> .....whichever way the user(s) would want it to be (personally I THINK
> dynamically resizing - and while the system is booted to ...not were it just
> takes a % of ram at bootup, and that ram is locked, unswappable, from
> anything else)
> 
> ok ....I guess I'm a li'l stuck on that dynamic disk cache thing, but
> anyway...it probably would be nice.
> 

Writing an IFS isn't a big secret.  The documentation is out there.  
If someone was dedicated enough they could write a new HPFS or FAT IFS
that has a dynamic cache.

The things people want to do with OS/2s source code tends to be 
possible without it.  IBM made sure that OS/2 was easily expandable 
without touching the core of the OS.


Glen
-<remove Z from my e-mail Address>-

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From: kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com               16-Dec-99 15:38:21
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 03:47:21
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: "Kim Cheung" <kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com>

On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 23:28:45 GMT, Clive Dove wrote:

>It sounds like what I need.
>As I do not have the beginning of this thread, I would appreciate 
>someone posting the url where I can get more information. 

http://www.os2ss.com/warpcast/1999_Dec_10.html - Project Concorde - plan to
run Win32 apps under OS/2



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From: jack.troughton@nospam.videotron.ca                17-Dec-99 00:36:16
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 03:47:21
Subj: Re: Preventing a TRAP#### from

From: jack.troughton@nospam.videotron.ca (Jack Troughton)

On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 03:40:31, "Trancser" <jbergman@ixc.ixc.net> wrote:

ê>
ê>Not possible.  When it hits one of those black screen traps, the system is
ê>already too far gone to recover.  Either the system wound up losing track of
ê>which memory is paged in and out or (more often likely) system level code
(such
ê>as a device driver) had an unrecoverable memory protection fault.
ê>
ê>- Marty
Û
êYea, kinda figure that. Could it be additional bugs in programming of OS/2
ê(still!)? Should OS/2 allow drivers or user programs to be able to crash the
êsystem in such a way? Or is faulty buggy code that comprise these drivers
êloading in our config.sys files, or user programs? I still think OS/2 rocks,
êbut that just puzzles me.

Usually... traps are the result of bad drivers, or a hardware problem.
 I've never had a trap due to a user level program.  The thing about 
drivers is that they operate at a priveleged level of execution; 
basically, the kernel makes no attempt to defend itself against them. 
This is done for performance reasons; otherwise, the OS would be dog 
slow. IF you have well-written drivers, this is no problem; however, 
if your drivers have bugs, then it leaves the OS wide open to be 
stopped dead by those bugs.

FWIW, the only time I've had trap problems were with a bad video 
driver from Matrox (I downleveled until they fixed the problem) and 
when the fan on my CPU died, letting the CPU overheat and causing 
errors.

The CPU fan traps was kinda funny; it happened at a time when I had a 
LOT less experience with warp, and computers in general.  I spent 
literally weeks trying to find rhyme or reason as to why the box was 
dying before I got out the screwdriver and had a look inside.  I saw 
the fan was dead dead dead and pulled a Homer: "Doh!"

It makes me laugh now...;)

Take it easy!

Jack Troughton   ICQ:7494149
http://jakesplace.dhs.org
jack.troughton at videotron.ca
jake at jakesplace.dhs.org
MontrÚal PQ Canada

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: uno@40th.com                                      16-Dec-99 23:50:29
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 03:47:21
Subj: T.C.O. vs R.I.P. (Re: Cost of Ownership 

From: uno@40th.com (uno@40th.com)

Timothy Sipples? (tsipple@us.iNoSPAMbm.com?) wrote (Thu, 16 Dec 1999 14:01:27
>- OS/2 Warp "fat client" has about a 20% lower total cost of ownership than

It's a lot less than that:  you can't buy new software for OS2 anymore
(not a cost-savings I find attractive, but some like old, or free, stuff)
simply because no one uses OS2 anymore so no one writes for OS2 anymore.
By no one, I mean practically no one; just like there are some that do
Amiga today, there will be someone doing OS2 today, but there are 5000
other OS people out there for every one OS2'er.  A sad fact from 1999:

  ===========
 |   R.I.P.  |
 |           |
 |    OS2    |
 |           |
 | Born 1987 |
 | Died 1999 |
 |           |
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


















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From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               16-Dec-99 19:13:07
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 03:47:21
Subj: Re: When will it be 100% done?

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Bob Germer wrote:
> 
> On <3857CE6A.4DB06D44@stny.rr.com>, on 12/15/99 at 12:22 PM,
>    Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> said:
> 
> > Bob Germer wrote:
> > >
> > > On <3856D9EF.1891A66F@stny.rr.com>, on 12/14/99 at 06:59 PM,
> > >    Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> said:
> > >
> > > > Have you checked my headers yet or are you going to keep making a
> > > > jackass out of yourself?  Amazing how you can keep denying facts to
> > > > preserve your dreamworld.  It surpasses even Tholen's idiocy.
> > >
> > > Headers do not prove a single thing.
> 
> > They prove that I have been using an OS/2 machine for the last 5 years,
> > which is more than your baseless accusations can counter.
> 
> They prove nothing more than you used an application running under OS/2.
> They don't prove who installed the OS, who maintains it, who installed the
> application.

They prove that you were wrong when you said:
"I don't believe you use or are capable of using OS/2." 

Luckily, I've presented more evidence than just my headers.  Too bad you
ignored it as it would shatter the fairy land that you have so shoddily
constructed in what's left of your senile mind.

> > > My 10 year old grandchildren can post messages on my machine.
> 
> > And they are probably quite a bit more coherent than yours.
> 
> They certainly are smarter and more literate than you.

Dubious.  They are related to you, after all.

> > > They cannot set up Warp or make changes to it.
> 
> > Why not?  Have you ever let them try?  It's not a very difficult thing.
> 
> Q.E.D. What a totally assinine statement.

It was nice of you to give us a warning of your upcoming assinine statement in
advance.  I'm sure the other readers appreciate it too.

> Unless one is running PnP hardware available in 1996, setting up OS/2 is far 

> from easy

Ok, Boob, explain how having Plug N Play hardware makes OS/2 easier to set up,
if you think you can.  (Gentle reminder:  OS/2 is not Win9x which
automatically
detects your PnP hardware and installs a driver for it.)

> if one wants his or her peripherals to work or be able to use a hard 
> disk larger than 2 gigs. If one has a large hard disk, a newer SCSI adapter,
> an AGP video card, USB ports, etc.

Now how would someone without PnP hardware have all of this installed on their
system?  A little coherence in your argument could go a long way.

> one must know a great deal about the hardware to be able to even install 
> Warp and get to the PM.

Not at all, Bob.  All one needs to know are which drivers to install and which
updates are needed.  It ain't rocket science, as the expression goes.

> One must modify the installation diskettes.

Sorry to hear that your grandkids aren't capable of such things.  But after
all, they are related to you.

> One must be able to figure out which driver, which snoop is causing the 
> machine not to even boot for installation.

That's if you're inept enough to have the machine not able to boot for the
installation.

> Thank you for proving you are not competent.

I've done nothing of the sort.  All I said was, "It's not a very difficult
thing."  The fact that you find it difficult shows you to be the incompetent
one.  But don't let the facts or logic get in your way.

> Your statement above is prima facia proof.

Thus says Boob.  Too bad he has no evidence whatsoever.

> Windoze does have one advantage over Warp.  It is possible for an asshole 
> idiot like you to install it.

You are erroneously presupposing (without proof, as usual) that I have
installed Windoze and have not installed Warp.

> > Setting up OS/2 is not a difficult task.  IBM didn't design it to be a
> > difficult task.  The fact that you pride yourself on doing something
> > which is quite trivial speaks volumes of your skill level.  The fact
> > that you would attack an OS/2 freeware programmer as not having
> > knowledge of OS/2 speaks volumes about your intelligence.  That's like
> 
> If I believed the work you claim was really yours, you might have a point.

Incorrect.  The facts exist regardless of your acceptance thereof.

> I don't believe it based on your posts which betray a total ignorance of
> Warp.

LOL!

You're quite right that my posts betray a total ignorance of Warp.  In fact,
they demonstrate a complete lack of ignorance of Warp on my part.  Glad you
agree.

You still have a few issues left to account for in your fairy tales, Boob. 
Chief among them is my direct challenge to you, from which you have
predictably
run away by removing it from your reply:

"Bob, I don't know everything about OS/2, but I'd wager that I know more
about the guts of OS/2 than you do, and I'm prepared to prove it.  You,
on the other hand are content to meerly throw around baseless fairy
tales and run away.  I guess I shouldn't be surprised, given your brand
of 'advocacy'."

So I guess your answer (or rather, lack thereof) speaks for itself.  It may be
time to digestify your lies and baseless claims quite soon.

I see we've also forgotten about your prejudicial remarks and your ineptly
attempted cover-up.  How convenient of you to shift the focus to a non-issue
to
take the heat off of yourself.  It has not passed without notice, however.

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From: cbass2112@my-deja.com                             16-Dec-99 23:53:15
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 03:47:21
Subj: Re: When will it be 100% done?

From: cbass2112@my-deja.com

In article <3858e3f8$5$obot$mr2ice@news.pics.com>,
  Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com> wrote:

-- snip --

> No, Marty may use an application running under OS/2. I still maintain
> he cannot use OS/2.

Hmm. I guess it was inevitable that we would ultimately delve into
Tholenesque arguments over word definitions.  Are you trying to tell me
that "us[ing] an application running under OS/2" can be done *without*
using OS/2?  If so, I would certainly like to see an explanation as to
how that could be done . . .

> There is a huge difference between using an application someone else
> sets up and installing, modifying, etc. an operating system.

Well, to use more Tholenisms, "you are erroneously presupposing that
'someone else is setting up and installing, modifying, etc' Marty's
machine."

-- snip --


Curtis


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: pc-reg_englsh@yahoo.com                           18-Dec-99 03:39:28
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 03:47:21
Subj: +++GET YOUR FREE PENTIUM CELERON-300+++________________________________

From: PC <pc-reg_englsh@yahoo.com>

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From: jimf@frostbytes.com                               16-Dec-99 20:55:19
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 03:47:21
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: Jim Frost <jimf@frostbytes.com>

Don Hills wrote:
> 
> In article <3858501C.F8780073@frostbytes.com>,
> Jim Frost <jimf@frostbytes.com> wrote:
> >
> >COO for NT is way lower than either OS/2 or Win9x (you can easily lock down
> >the configuration against changes, deliberate or accidental); it's a really
> >viable corporate system at this point and still way cheaper than this
product.
> 
> You can't truly lock down NT. NT might be secure by itself or with many
> 3rd-party apps, but Microsoft's own products are so full of wormholes
> due to their interdependency that it makes a mockery of the "lock down"
> concept. For example, there is no way you can run Word while keeping the
> user from opening a command prompt and running amok.

Sure you can.  You can disable the ability for them to run CMD.EXE.  But I was
thinking of locking it down by making the system and applications directories
non-writable and non-deletable.  They can go to town on the machine and still
not screw up the configuration.

jim

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From: possum@road.kill                                  16-Dec-99 12:42:20
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 03:47:21
Subj: Re: OS2 comes in 9th (Re: OS2 garners 'OTHER' status in operating syste

From: possum@road.kill (Mike Trettel)

On 16 Dec 1999 03:30:13 GMT, uno@40th.com <uno@40th.com> wrote:
>
>For hard-hitting, knock-out numbers, click on this link.  It has OS2
>numbers (9th place, right ahead of ... Amiga):
>
> http://www.thecounter.com/stats/December/os.html
>
> Summary
>
>  Windows*: about 216,550 thousand hits (216+ million)
>       OS2: about      38 thousand hits
>     Amiga: about      23 thousand hits
>
>To put this into perspective, hits using this counter are 5700 times
>more likely to be from a Win* OS than from OS2.  At least OS2 is showing.
>There's no way to spin out of this: OS2 users are going, going... (to
>Amiga?).
>
>I wrote (4 Dec 1999 22:22:41 GMT):
>> http://www.statmarket.com/SM?c=Operating_System
>
>
> '`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'
> Corne1 Huth     http://40th.com/      Bullet database engines/servers

Cornel, there was an extensive discussion going on in
comp.os.linux.advocacy about the hitcounter statistics just a little
while back.  The consenus seemed to be that, while not totally bogus,
a web based counting system is also not going to accurately count in a
non-biased fashion real operating system use.  After all, the entire
scheme depends upon a user of any particular OS to actually hit a site
using the counter-which clearly imparts a statistical bias from the
outset.  For example, it's pretty unlikely for a Linux or OS/2 user to
check out a web site dedicated to, say DirectX gaming, yet such a site
would garner quite a few hits from users of the Win32 platform.

I really hope that we're haven't reached Amiga status yet, though....
(Ducking)
-- 
Mike Trettel		trettel (shift 2) fred (small dot) net

Death to spammers, and so forth.  Fix the reply line to mail me.  Sorry.

System uptime is 1 days 16:09 hours (en).

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From: chris.hoffmann@bigfoot.com                        17-Dec-99 02:01:16
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 03:47:21
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: chris.hoffmann@bigfoot.com (Chris Hoffmann)

On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:06:49 -0600, hemo_jr@attglobal.net (Matt
Hickman) wrote:

>In <PmRGDiEz74Uh-pn2-Pckj9ngdgRci@24.64.171.183.on.wave.home.com>, on
12/16/99 
>   at 04:39 PM, chdove@home.com (Clive Dove) said:
>
>>Of course it is not necessary to have two machines to run two  operating
>>systems, it is only necessary to partition your drive to  provide an
>>extra primary for the second operating system and to use  the Boot
>>Manager that comes with OS/2.
>
>Novell & IBM had a product a couple of years ago which allowed you to 
>run a Netware server and and OS/2 simultaneously on the same
>PC.  This was done by partitioning memory, disk space and CPU
>cycles between the two OS's.  Don't know if the product is still
>available.  They would talk to each other via a loopback driver
>and the OS/2 would talk to the network via an NDIS to ODI mapping
>and use the Netware servers driver.  You could even run the Netware
>UI as an OS/2 window.
>
>I would like to do something like this with a multiple CPU machine 
>and support OS/2, NT and Linux all on the same machine at the same
>time.  One keyboard on monitor and Three OSes running on the same
>PC at the same time each having  pseudo network access to the other,
>and having access to the net using a single wire into the PC.
>
>With the CPU speeds, large HDs and low memory costs the way they are
>today, something like this could fly.

I don't know if you've seen VMWare (www.vmware.com) - it's a "soft"
solution in that it emulates a platform for a "guest" OS to run within
a "Host" OS. Currently it's available for Linux host (allowing all Win
flavours amongst others as guests) and WinNT host (allowing Linux,
Win9x amonst others) as guests.

There is a note on the web site with words to the effect that if
enough interest is shown that they'll consider making OS/2 available
as a guest OS.

With WinNT4 on a single PIII 450, I can run Win95 comfortably in a
window, or fullscreen which is almost indistinguishable from a native
boot.

FWIW

Regards,

Chris Hoffmann.
"We got our eyes on the firmament, hands on the armaments,
 Heads full of arguments and words for our monuments" - 
Midnight Oil: 'Hercules'

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From: josco@ibm.net                                     16-Dec-99 18:26:09
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 03:47:21
Subj: Re: OS2 comes in 9th (Re: OS2 garners 'OTHER' status in operating syste

From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net>


"uno@40th.com" wrote:

> For hard-hitting, knock-out numbers, click on this link.  It has OS2
> numbers (9th place, right ahead of ... Amiga):
>
>  http://www.thecounter.com/stats/December/os.html
>
>  Summary
>
>   Windows*: about 216,550 thousand hits (216+ million)
>        OS2: about      38 thousand hits
>      Amiga: about      23 thousand hits
>
> To put this into perspective, hits using this counter are 5700 times
> more likely to be from a Win* OS than from OS2.  At least OS2 is showing.
> There's no way to spin out of this: OS2 users are going, going... (to
> Amiga?).

Some day.   All OSs end.

It's Dec 1999 and MS's flag ship OS is Windows98/Millennium.  Their OS cannot
down load, decode and run multimedia at the same time. Sony's PSX system, and
a host of systems running NUON's $20 processor outperform a 700 mhz Windows98
PC.

Windows2000 might be technically capable  - it needs a 500 processor and
128MB RAM to keep up - and a systems engineer to maintain the OS and a $300
fee to MS for the OS license.



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From: jimf@frostbytes.com                               16-Dec-99 21:26:11
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 03:47:21
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: Jim Frost <jimf@frostbytes.com>

"Michael W. Cocke" wrote:
> That being the case, I would guess that you don't have to deal with any
> users but yourself or other computer literates.  At home, I support my
> wife and son, neither of whom are real interested in learning that
> ls -l|sort|more is how you do a dir...

Actually "dir" is how you do a dir on Linux, there's an alias right out of the
box, but practically speaking there is a reasonably good GUI file manager in
KDE.  It may be hard for a lot of people to believe but you can actually do a
whole lot of work on your typical Linux system without ever touching a command
line.  I use my Linux desktop pretty much the same as I always used my Windows
desktop -- hell, KDE is practically a knockoff.

> At work, I support around 100
> users who think a logon has something to do with a big tree.  Yeah,
> linux would go over real big...  (intense sarcasm).  And before you
> start telling me that I don't know anything about linux, let me tell you
> that I was trained at SCO, and was a systems engineer at AT&T.  I know a
> little about *nix systems.

I wouldn't say something like that unless you proved to me that you were
confused.  Obviously you're not, although perhaps your knowledge of the
interfaces is a little dated.

I think you're stretching things to say that everyone would rebel because they
had to type in a user name and password; they have to do that with pretty much
any networking system out there.  There are certainly going to be some issues
but they're no worse than teaching someone how to do basic things with WPS and
typical GUI applications.  It's all basically the same stuff.

> >Those "funky" Windows software packages are the whole draw for your
product.
> >You're basically betting that the customer has so much tied up in OS/2 that
> >they can't afford to let it go, but they need those Windows applications
bad
> >enough to pay hundreds of dollars extra on your stuff to get them.
> 
> You're forgetting one thing - there's also a whole class of customer
> that would like (very much) to run one or more win apps, but cannot/will
> not deal with the stability issues of windows on an enterprise level,
> the 'virus of the day', a never-ending series of compatibility and
> security problems...

I'm having a hard time seeing why it is that you wouldn't have to deal with
these same problems in the emulation system.  Maybe they'd be more contained,
but it strikes me that what you're really doing is buying into both Windows
support headaches and OS/2 support headaches -- plus whatever extra support
headaches that you get from the emulation package.

> Personally, I'd love to be able to run a few win apps on either my
> system at home (OS/2) or my system at work (OS/2), but I _CANNOT_ risk
> the stability of 24/7 networks for the sake of that.

If you're under the assumption that you're immune from virii et al because
you're not running Windows then you're making a mistake.  OS/2 has few viruses
not because it's hard to make them (there's absolutely nothing harder about
writing an OS/2 virus than a Win9x virus) but because there are so few OS/2
users that it's not interesting.  OS/2 still lacks the basic features
(particularly filesystem security) necessary to stop a virus or worm
intrusion.

> >That's going to be a real tough sell.  You'd be way more likely to sell
> >something that emulated OS/2 under Windows, though I wouldn't get anywhere
> >near that business model either.
> 
> VMware recently announced this product - Speaking both personally and
> professionally (Did I mention that I'm D.I.T.?), not interested.
[...]
> Off the top, if what they propose would let me run win98 apps without
> compromising stability and security (running win98), I'd spend up to
> $300.00 at home, and another $300.00 at work, just for my personal
> systems.  I'd expect to pay more for an enterprise solution, but would
> have to give it more thought before I actually approved it for general
> use.  I need another support issue like I need a lobotomy.

I think you've just proven my point.  Sure, the ability to run some Windows
apps would be valuable, but not if you got extra headaches in the mix.  And
let's face it, you're going to get Windows headaches if you're running any
kind of a Windows environment -- even an emulated one.  Plus whatever problems
you already had, plus whatever problems the emulator has.

I've used products like these for more than a decade and a half and while they
sometimes have their uses they do not tend to work as well as a native
solution -- and they tend to cost more, too.  If you need the application bad
enough you should run it native.

jim

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From: kwilas@stardock.com                               17-Dec-99 02:38:07
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 03:47:21
Subj: Re: OS2 comes in 9th (Re: OS2 garners 'OTHER' status in operating syste

From: kwilas@stardock.com (Kris Kwilas)

In article <38597519.1FBBFA1C@ibm.net>, Joseph <josco@ibm.net> wrote:
>It's Dec 1999 and MS's flag ship OS is Windows98/Millennium.  Their OS cannot

No. Their consumer OS is Windows 98SE with Millenium in the wings for
"sometime next year" (there's been no date established). 

>down load, decode and run multimedia at the same time. 

How interesting, considering I do that with streaming video (which is 
certainly a download and decode of multimedia) all the time. 

Perhaps you would like to be specific? 

>Sony's PSX system, and
>a host of systems running NUON's $20 processor outperform a 700 mhz Windows98
>PC.

Can do _what_ over a Windows 98 machine (don't forget the host of other
systems :)? And that would be the 2x CD-based PSX with no Internet
connectivity in your apples and oranges generalization, right?

>Windows2000 might be technically capable  - it needs a 500 processor and
>128MB RAM to keep up - and a systems engineer to maintain the OS and a $300
>fee to MS for the OS license.

No question (in my mind, based on experience) that it needs 128MB of RAM
to be responsive (64MB was too tight, but usable). Processor requirements
are considerably more flexible ('tis quite happy on my PII-233), unless you
would like to nail a specific purpose down. Systems Engineer? Well, I'm not
the brightest bulb in the bunch, but no. $300? As its not available yet and
that's for a full license (or an approximation, as I don't know the exact 
price MS intends to charge for a totally new retail copy), well... you're 
pushing truth there as well.

Night. :)

Kris

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From: jimf@frostbytes.com                               16-Dec-99 21:32:22
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 03:47:21
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: Jim Frost <jimf@frostbytes.com>

"Bj›rn Vermo" wrote:
> > Maybe you can dig up Gartner's numbers for OS/2?  That would be helpful. 
I
> > would especially like it if you could find something that shows that NT
> > requires 300% more support people.  Frankly speaking I think you're
confusing
> > NT with Win9x.
> 
> I do not remember the exact numbers, but there was a Gartner survey
> early last year which indicated that the annual operating cost per
> seat could be very significantly decreased by WSOD [...]

Ahh, but WSOD is *not* a full-blown OS/2!  It's effectively OS/2 in an NC
configuration.  You can do pretty well at reducing NT's COO if you strip it
down to NC capability levels too.

> > OS costs are lowest for Windows; $50 or so for Windows 9x preloaded, $150
for
> > NT preloaded (most vendors sell NT upgrades for $100).  OS/2 can't be
found
> > preloaded from any significant hardware vendor so you're looking at
something
> > like $250 per seat (including the $50 you had to spend on Windows 9x
because
> > of the monopoly arrangement).
> 
> IBM may not be a significant hardware vendor where you come from, but
> they are consistently one of the top three in the PC market here - not
> to mention that they sell some rather heavier iron, too.

It's funny you should mention that.  You cannot buy a PC from IBM preloaded
with OS/2 that doesn't also have Windows.  Most of their systems don't even
offer OS/2 as a preload option at all.  And if you can't get it from IBM....

> Checking the mail order catalogs, I notice that the one-off cost of
> Warp 4 is just mid between Win98 and NT Workstation. A minimum NT
> server is cheaper than the WSeB, but if you need more than two CPUs or
> a handful users the NT will soon become more expensive. If you compare
> ready to run systems, you will also have to include extra management
> and backup software for the NT server.

As I recall we were talking about clients.  I do not recommend NT as a server
system, period.

jim

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From: josco@ibm.net                                     16-Dec-99 18:35:03
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 03:47:21
Subj: Re: T.C.O. vs R.I.P. (Re: Cost of Ownership 

From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net>


"uno@40th.com" wrote:

> Timothy Sipples? (tsipple@us.iNoSPAMbm.com?) wrote (Thu, 16 Dec 1999
14:01:27
> >- OS/2 Warp "fat client" has about a 20% lower total cost of ownership than
>
> It's a lot less than that:  you can't buy new software for OS2 anymore
> (not a cost-savings I find attractive, but some like old, or free, stuff)

Other OSs don't require purchasing NEW software on a semi-annual  basis.

Most all new software development isn't Windows based.  That's a dead end
platform   New software development is accessed as web services and they sites
refuse to screen out OS/2 users.  Write to them - lecture them.
 http://anyday.com/
http://www.stardivision.com


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From: jimf@frostbytes.com                               16-Dec-99 21:58:27
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 03:47:21
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: Jim Frost <jimf@frostbytes.com>

Chris Stumpf wrote:
> :>Maybe you can dig up Gartner's numbers for OS/2?  That would be helpful. 
I
> :>would especially like it if you could find something that shows that NT
> :>requires 300% more support people.  Frankly speaking I think you're
confusing
> :>NT with Win9x.
> 
> No confusion on my part.  I got the 300% more support people number from
some
> simple extrapolation of available facts.  Fact 1, Microsoft claims that
using
> the ZAK NT model, a single administrator can support 200-250 users, 300 max.
> Fact 2, there are quite a few very large banks using OS/2 in a RIPL boot
> environment and they have been supporting 1200-1600 users per administrator
> for years.  I was being generous with the 300% number as you can see.

Dare I mention the possibility that the banks may not be running a typical
application mix, and that it might be possible that with similar applications
you'd get similar supportability?  I would really prefer to have a Gartner COO
estimate to compare to another Gartner COO estimate; at least there's some
chance of them having similar assumptions.

> :>OS/2 has the same problem that Windows 9x does in that it's really easy to
> :>destroy system software (that "I deleted stuff" problem again).
> 
> --snip--
> 
> There are a few things you are forgetting.  There are plenty of utilites,
> commercial, shareware and freeware to lock down the desktop and prevent
stuff
> like that for OS/2.

These exist for Win9x too, and yet they don't affect COO noticably.  It's just
too easy to get around them.  You need the lock-down ability in the OS proper,
not layered onto the desktop, because typical applications allow numerous
gateways to OS features.

> In large environments, the use of remote access
> tools like Netop, RSM or PCAnywhere can save a bundle in support time and
> costs.

All these do is stop you from having to walk over.  Remote administration is
still administration.

> Third, OS/2 can be ripl booted, this is where the OS and applications
> are loaded over the network from the server and executed locally on the
> workstation.  OS/2 has had the ability for 10 years.

Now you're talking, but we'll get into the drawbacks of this technique in a
minute.

> Or using a product like WiseManager from
> Serenity Systems, the machine can be completely rebuilt in a matter of
> minutes.

No argument there, but that capability has been available for Windows systems
for years too, using Ghost.

> :>Where you're making assumptions that may not hold is that you believe that
> :>it's cheaper to keep using what you've got than it is to replace it.
> 
> --snip--
> 
> I never made the assumption that it is cheaper to keep using what I've got.
> I stated that OS/2 requires less hardware than NT to accomplish the same
> tasks.

The hardware difference you're talking about is well under $100 retail, on the
order of 1-2% of COO.  That's down in the noise.

> Here is a number for you.  I can provide a workstations and the
> servers to support them for an organization for 50%-70% less than the
numbers
> for the NC or NT ZAK solutions in the article you pointed me to.  Here is a
> the configuration.  PC or IBM 2800 with 64 megs ram, full sound capability
> and no hard drive.  Software:  Office suite, Web browser other software used
> for general office use.  Cost per workstation, $200 per month per
workstation
> on a 2 year contract.  I provide all the support for the workstations.  TCO
> for the customer is $2400 per year per workstation.  This number works for a
> site with 5-50 workstations.  With more workstations and depending on the
> configuration, I can bring that number down to $150 per workstation.  The
> beauty of it all is that I can administer it remotely.  Once I have a site
> setup, it takes almost no effort to administer it.

Ok, now we can talk about network centralized systems.

Your figures totally ignore the network infrastructure cost of these systems. 
They are now totally dependent on the network -- and network infrastructure is
many times more expensive than local disk and slower to boot.

We used to use this configuration with Sun 3/50 hardware.  It sure did make
administration easy, but we had to have many times the network and server
capability to support it.  As I recall it totally fell apart at about 15
systems per server.  Modern hardware is presumably better, but it's not even
an order of magnitude better.  And remember that you've just introduced a big,
big single-point-of-failure so you better buy really reliable servers.

So you're COO isn't really $2,400 -- you have to add in all that other stuff,
thousands of dollars per user in server and network hardware plus support
costs for all of that.

> :>Whether or not one of those good alternatives is OS/2 is quite debatable.  
IBM
> :>has seriously curtailed ongoing development of the system; it has been in
> :>maintenance mode for a couple of years, and we've even heard of potential
> :>cut-off dates for that (2006 wasn't it?).  Drivers for a lot of new
hardware
> :>are impossible to get.  Very few ISVs continue to build -- or even
maintain --
> :>software for it.
> 
> Let's see, Win95 support ended when Win98 was released and WinNT support is
> going to go bye-bye when Win2000 is released.  MS stops support for old
> products when they release a new product.  BTW, the cutoff date for OS/2
> support you are refering to is for free support, you can still get support
> from IBM for old products, you just have to pay for it.

Actually no, when IBM drops support for a product you can't get support for it
even if you want to pay for it.  Trust me on this, I've lived through the
retirement of several IBM systems.  At least nowadays they can't demand their
OS media back :-).

In any case what do you do when you can't get drivers for new hardware any
more, and you can't get the old hardware either?

jim

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From: jimf@frostbytes.com                               16-Dec-99 22:02:02
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 03:47:21
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: Jim Frost <jimf@frostbytes.com>

Kim Cheung wrote:
> Look up my $50,000 open chanllenge to anybody in this forum.    Not a single
> person dared to take me up on it - yet.
> 
> May be you will?
> 
> It's so easy to just blow hot-air.    Be a doer.
> 
> Okay, in case you missed it.   My challenge is very simple: take a room full
> of PCs (the more the better), I'll take half and you take half.    You do
> whatever you think these systems should be setup to run your beloved Windows
> (any version), and I'll set up my.    Then I'll give you 10 minutes to
"play"
> with my half of the PCs, and I get to "play" with yours for 10 minutes.
> From then on, we start a timer.   For each minute pass I can not get my Pcs
> back to 100% working condition, I'll pay you $1000 - up to $50,000.
> Likewise, for each minute pass you can not get your Pcs back to 100% working
> condition, you pay me $1000 - up to $50,000.    (No physical damage or bios
> screwing, of course - that wouldn't proof a thing).
> 
> Legal binding contract - money in escrow up front.
> 
> Should I sent you the contract?

Oh please, this is nothing more than a bluff.  You know no one will take you
up on it in either case; virtually no one in this group would have $50,000 to
put up.

You'd do the same thing I'd do to restore them -- restore an image and do a
reboot.  It should be pretty much a wash.

jim

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From: jimf@frostbytes.com                               16-Dec-99 22:04:09
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 03:47:21
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: Jim Frost <jimf@frostbytes.com>

Kim Cheung wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:57:37 -0500 (EST), Chris Stumpf wrote:
> 
> >Or using a product like WiseManager from
> >Serenity Systems, the machine can be completely rebuilt in a matter of
> >minutes.
> 
> Urrrr... not minutes, Chris - make that ....seconds...

I've been wondering about this claim.  It seems to me that raw data copy
performance would put you well beyond that point.  It takes on the order of 5
minutes to re-ghost a Windows system, for instance.  Now, I know OS/2 is
smaller, but it's not two orders of magnitude smaller.

How is it managed?

jim

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From: DLaRue@NetSRQ.Com                                 17-Dec-99 03:34:28
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 03:47:22
Subj: Re: OS2 comes in 9th (Re: OS2 garners 'OTHER' status in operating syste

From: DLaRue@NetSRQ.Com (David LaRue)

  Hmm, the Deja site lists Unix, OS/2, , , , DOS, , , NT, W98,...

  Statistics can show anything.  To paraphrase an old saying, "If the plane
you just boarded used [pick an OS/developer group/strategy], how many
of you would get off?"  I personally checked before boarding and haven't
ridden them yet.  I've heard ffrom a few who have though.

  David

In <zozo85gn5s.2b.uno@sage.40th.com>, uno@40th.com (uno@40th.com) writes:
>
>For hard-hitting, knock-out numbers, click on this link.  It has OS2
>numbers (9th place, right ahead of ... Amiga):
>
> http://www.thecounter.com/stats/December/os.html
>
> Summary
>
>  Windows*: about 216,550 thousand hits (216+ million)
>       OS2: about      38 thousand hits
>     Amiga: about      23 thousand hits
>
>To put this into perspective, hits using this counter are 5700 times
>more likely to be from a Win* OS than from OS2.  At least OS2 is showing.
>There's no way to spin out of this: OS2 users are going, going... (to
>Amiga?).
>
>I wrote (4 Dec 1999 22:22:41 GMT):
>> http://www.statmarket.com/SM?c=Operating_System
>
>
> '`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'
> Corne1 Huth     http://40th.com/      Bullet database engines/servers

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(1:109/42)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: cstumpf@monmouth.com                              16-Dec-99 23:33:25
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 03:47:22
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: "Chris Stumpf" <cstumpf@monmouth.com>

On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 22:04:18 -0500, Jim Frost wrote:

:>
:>I've been wondering about this claim.  It seems to me that raw data copy
:>performance would put you well beyond that point.  It takes on the order of
5
:>minutes to re-ghost a Windows system, for instance.  Now, I know OS/2 is
:>smaller, but it's not two orders of magnitude smaller.
:>
:>How is it managed?
:>

You are thinking like windows.  Stop for just a few seconds and clear you
mind.  Now, here is how it works.  IBM placed the ability to do RIPL over the
network.  RIPL stands for Remote Initial Program Load.  All the files for
each workstation reside on the server.  No hard drive is required in the
workstation, although if there is one, it can be used for virtual memory swap
space to reduce network traffic.  There is no raw data copy of hundreds of
meg going on.  Actually it is quite an elegant solution.  There is only one
copy of the OS, in this case, OS/2 Warp 4 on the server.  Each workstation
gets a directory and in that directory goes only the files that are specific
to that workstation and can be changed, like config.sys and ini files. 
WiseManager is a tool to manage the machine profiles on the server. 
Rebuilding a machine is nothing more than reading a script file to recreate
the configuration of the machine at some known point.  It is really
impressive technology.  Especially when you setup a bunch of monitors with
pc's attached with no hard drives and after networking them to the server,
turn them on and watch them boot.  Instant network.  If say they all need an
application like say Adobe Acrobat View, it is a simple drag-and-drop
operation to install the program to all the machines simultaneously.  The
icon appears on the desktops and the app works, no reboot required.  Not all
apps install quite that simply, some require a reboot of the workstation to
run properly.  Does this explain things a little better for you?

		Chris Stumpf
		C.S.E. Computer Services
		Computer Consultant (OS/2, Lan, Wan, CTI)
		Serenity Systems Channel Partner
		IBM Certified Systems Expert - OS/2 Warp 4
		

web:    http://cse.anterras.net
email:	cse@anterras.net
phone: (732)496-4699



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From: cstumpf@monmouth.com                              16-Dec-99 23:37:08
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 03:47:22
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: "Chris Stumpf" <cstumpf@monmouth.com>

On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 22:02:04 -0500, Jim Frost wrote:

:>
:>Oh please, this is nothing more than a bluff.  You know no one will take you
:>up on it in either case; virtually no one in this group would have $50,000
to
:>put up.
:>

I can assure you that Kim is definately not bluffing on this.

:>You'd do the same thing I'd do to restore them -- restore an image and do a
:>reboot.  It should be pretty much a wash.
:>
No, he would do no such thing.  See my previous message, there is no hard
drive in the workstation nor is there need or one.  If you are using windows
on the other hand, you have to have the hard drive.  If you think it would be
a wash, then find someone to back you finacially and take Kim up on his
challenge.

		Chris Stumpf
		C.S.E. Computer Services
		Computer Consultant (OS/2, Lan, Wan, CTI)
		Serenity Systems Channel Partner
		IBM Certified Systems Expert - OS/2 Warp 4
		

web:    http://cse.anterras.net
email:	cse@anterras.net
phone: (732)496-4699



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From: cstumpf@monmouth.com                              17-Dec-99 00:00:28
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 03:47:22
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: "Chris Stumpf" <cstumpf@monmouth.com>

On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 21:58:54 -0500, Jim Frost wrote:

:>
:>Dare I mention the possibility that the banks may not be running a typical
:>application mix, and that it might be possible that with similar
applications
:>you'd get similar supportability?  I would really prefer to have a Gartner
COO
:>estimate to compare to another Gartner COO estimate; at least there's some
:>chance of them having similar assumptions.
:>

You obviously have no clue as to the nature of the technology I'm discussing.

:>
:>These exist for Win9x too, and yet they don't affect COO noticably.  It's
just
:>too easy to get around them.  You need the lock-down ability in the OS
proper,
:>not layered onto the desktop, because typical applications allow numerous
:>gateways to OS features.
:>
OS/2 has the hooks for C-2 level security built into the OS and there are
several addons that take advantage of this.  OS/2 can be made secure with
little effort as it does not have the holes that Windows does.

:>
:>All these do is stop you from having to walk over.  Remote administration is
:>still administration.
:>
And saving time is still saving time.  This walk time is signifigant
especially in large buildings with multiple floors.

:>> Third, OS/2 can be ripl booted, this is where the OS and applications
:>> are loaded over the network from the server and executed locally on the
:>> workstation.  OS/2 has had the ability for 10 years.
:>
:>Now you're talking, but we'll get into the drawbacks of this technique in a
:>minute.
:>
Yes there are drawbacks, but a properly designed and configured network and
servers can deal with them.

:>> Or using a product like WiseManager from
:>> Serenity Systems, the machine can be completely rebuilt in a matter of
:>> minutes.
:>
:>No argument there, but that capability has been available for Windows
systems
:>for years too, using Ghost.
:>
I repeat, there is no image being pushed down to the client machines in a
RIPL enviroment.  Saying that a Ghost image and a RIPL boot are the same
shows you haven't a clue what you are talking about.  BTW, RIPL booted
machines don't need a hard drive.

:>> :>Where you're making assumptions that may not hold is that you believe
that
:>> :>it's cheaper to keep using what you've got than it is to replace it.
:>> 
:>> --snip--
:>> 
:>> I never made the assumption that it is cheaper to keep using what I've
got.
:>> I stated that OS/2 requires less hardware than NT to accomplish the same
:>> tasks.
:>
:>The hardware difference you're talking about is well under $100 retail, on
the
:>order of 1-2% of COO.  That's down in the noise.
:>
:>> Here is a number for you.  I can provide a workstations and the
:>> servers to support them for an organization for 50%-70% less than the
numbers
:>> for the NC or NT ZAK solutions in the article you pointed me to.  Here is
a
:>> the configuration.  PC or IBM 2800 with 64 megs ram, full sound capability
:>> and no hard drive.  Software:  Office suite, Web browser other software
used
:>> for general office use.  Cost per workstation, $200 per month per
workstation
:>> on a 2 year contract.  I provide all the support for the workstations. 
TCO
:>> for the customer is $2400 per year per workstation.  This number works for 
a
:>> site with 5-50 workstations.  With more workstations and depending on the
:>> configuration, I can bring that number down to $150 per workstation.  The
:>> beauty of it all is that I can administer it remotely.  Once I have a site
:>> setup, it takes almost no effort to administer it.
:>
:>Ok, now we can talk about network centralized systems.
:>
:>Your figures totally ignore the network infrastructure cost of these
systems. 
:>They are now totally dependent on the network -- and network infrastructure
is
:>many times more expensive than local disk and slower to boot.
:>
:>We used to use this configuration with Sun 3/50 hardware.  It sure did make
:>administration easy, but we had to have many times the network and server
:>capability to support it.  As I recall it totally fell apart at about 15
:>systems per server.  Modern hardware is presumably better, but it's not even
:>an order of magnitude better.  And remember that you've just introduced a
big,
:>big single-point-of-failure so you better buy really reliable servers.
:>
Now you are talking about Xwindows.  This is a different animal altogether. 
The servers are doing the program execution and spewing graphics over the
network.  I can support 30 machines on one server and not a huge server at
that.  It would work just fine on a dual PII 350 with 512 megs ram and a
raid5 disk array with 5 9 gig hard drives.  With a bigger server I can handle
more.  Oh, and would you agree with me that that such a server would not be
considered expensive as servers go, but rather cheap.  The bulk of network
traffic occurs when booting or loading large programs.  Once OS is loaded,
everything happens locally and there would be no network traffic at all if
there is enough ram in the client box to prevent swapping once the programs
are loaded.  So, I realize you are talking from your experience, but the
technologies are so very different.

:>So you're COO isn't really $2,400 -- you have to add in all that other
stuff,
:>thousands of dollars per user in server and network hardware plus support
:>costs for all of that.
:>
Uh, that number includes the cost of the server to support those
workstations.  As far as hardware like hubs and switches and wiring goes. 
Most companies are wired with cat5 cable and have 100 mbps hubs.  That
equipment can be reused.  It is adequate, but not optimal.  Using a switch is
the best solution.  So, even if I had to do an entire network completely from
scratch, I could probably do it for not too much more.  Besides, wiring and
hubs or switches I wouldn't work into the contract, I would sell that
outright.  Because if the customer desides to go with something totally
different or doesn't renew, I can take my equipment out and replace it with
something else or some other company can come in a plug into the existing
network.

--snip--


		Chris Stumpf
		C.S.E. Computer Services
		Computer Consultant (OS/2, Lan, Wan, CTI)
		Serenity Systems Channel Partner
		IBM Certified Systems Expert - OS/2 Warp 4
		

web:    http://cse.anterras.net
email:	cse@anterras.net
phone: (732)496-4699



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From: sbritton@cadvision.com                            16-Dec-99 22:34:07
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 03:47:22
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com>

Jack Troughton wrote:
>
> You are REALLY uneducated aren't you?  Capitalism (more specifically,
> venture capitalism) was invented in England in the seventeenth
> century.

<<SPLAT!!!>>

Damn... gotta clean the orange juice off the monitor now..  hold on a sec...

Okay... let me read that again...

<SPLAT!!!>>

(Cleans up orange juice again, wipes tears from eyes...)

Okay... now that I've composed myself ...

Jack, are you in stand-up comedy?  You should really consider it as a
career.  That was FUNNY!!!

I guess Caesar had his head embossed on coins just because he liked seeing
his image mounted in bronze, silver, and gold, and I guess the ancient
Israelites in the time that the books of Moses were written didn't trade
livestock with each other, or pay dowries for women to take as wives...

Capitalism was invented in the seventeenth century.... ya, okay.

In fact, capitalism is the NATURAL STATE OF BEING for people.  We trade
goods; whether it's money for a service (prostitution), or a cow for a horse
(barter), or a gun for a cow (trade), it's all capitalism.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
What have YOU done to bust a union today?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Work better: Work union-free.

Steven C. Britton
Calgary

www.cadvision.com/sbritton



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From: sbritton@cadvision.com                            16-Dec-99 22:37:23
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 03:47:22
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com>

Tim Rosnau wrote:
>
> Could you please enlighten us with an example of somebody doing
> something ethical which is also against the law? (and please don't
> use Microsoft as an example)

Sure:

Law in Germany during the reign of Hitler was that you had to turn any Jews
over to the SS if they were hiding in your neighborhood.

Someone who either hid Jews or lied to the SS to make them go away was doing
something ethical yet illegal.

> > One would expect that if one is doing business ethically (which
Microsoft
> > was), one wouldn't be breaking any laws in the process.
>
> Never thought I'd see Microsoft and ethics mentioned in the same
> sentence. Ultimately, that's what the DoJ trial was all about.
> Everyone involved knew that MS's business practices were very
> questionable ethically. The question was could  enough
> _illegalities_ be found in those practices to win the trial. There
> was and they did.

It was a show trial.  The outcome was determined before the opening
arguments were heard.  Kangaroo court at its finest.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
What have YOU done to bust a union today?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Work better: Work union-free.

Steven C. Britton
Calgary

www.cadvision.com/sbritton



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From: sbritton@cadvision.com                            16-Dec-99 22:39:29
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 03:47:22
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com>

Stephen Untruth wrote:
>
> > It's called a Ponzi scheme, named after a rather innovative Boston
> > mail-stamps vendor in the 19th century.  It's called a scheme only by
the
> > very polite: in reality is a sham...yet when your holy government does
it,
> > you call it a 'bargain'?
>
> Its certainly a pension plan based on a pay as you go basis.  No one ever
> denied that.  It works because all working people in Canada are part of
> the Plan, and will continue to be.

It's a scam, Untruth.

It requires an ever-increasing "investment" base (read "dupe") or an
ever-increasing investment amount (read "tax").

It _will_ collapse, Untruth.  Ponzi and pyramid scams always do.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
What have YOU done to bust a union today?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Work better: Work union-free.

Steven C. Britton
Calgary

www.cadvision.com/sbritton



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From: sbritton@cadvision.com                            16-Dec-99 22:46:25
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 03:47:22
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com>

Bob Germer wrote:
>
> > I guess you're just too closed-minded to see that laws can, in fact, be
> > unjust, which means that someone doing something perfectly ethical can
> > in fact be breaking the law.
>
> We are talking about legalities, not ethics. And Bill Gates' vow to smash
> his competitors repeated ad nauseum in the press, at employee parties,
> etc. by whatever means it took is far from ethical in any system in the
> western world.

It's called C...O...M...P...E...T...I...T...I...O...N, Bob.  It's nature.
Everything competes.

> > In other words, one can break the anti-trust laws without actually doing
> > anything wrong.
>
> No one cannot.

Yes one can.  Microsoft did.  Their only ethical crime was success.

> So called "civil disobedience" used to force changes in
> laws limiting individual freedom may well have been ethical since the laws
> unfairly discrimintated against people based on race, etc. and were found
> to be unconstitutional for the most part. The anti-trust law, however, is
> not discriminatory and has been repeatedly found constitutional by the
> courts.

Whether a court finds something "constitutional" does not reflect on the
ethical nature of what they find constitutional.  "Constitutional" means "it
is legitimate under the guidelines of our Constition: how we operate in this
country."

That has no bearing on whether something is fundamentally ethical or not.

> > How tyrannical.  Another reason why I'll never move to the US -- not
> > that it'll disappoint you.
>
> Oh? How is it tyranny to punish criminals?

It is tyranny to punish non-criminals like Microsoft.

> Is the Canadian government tyrannical because it imprisons people for
committing crimes?

The Canadian government certainly _is_ tyrannical -- but not for imprisoning
criminals.

> It one fails to pay his taxes, court imposed fines, etc., does the
Canadian government
> say "Oh well" and not sieze his or her assets?

That is tyranny.  All taxes -- especially at Canadian levels (which are
criminally high) -- are tyrannical.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
What have YOU done to bust a union today?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Work better: Work union-free.

Steven C. Britton
Calgary

www.cadvision.com/sbritton



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From: kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com               16-Dec-99 21:50:06
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 03:47:22
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: "Kim Cheung" <kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com>

On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 21:32:44 -0500, Jim Frost wrote:

>Ahh, but WSOD is *not* a full-blown OS/2!  It's effectively OS/2 in an NC
>configuration.  You can do pretty well at reducing NT's COO if you strip it
>down to NC capability levels too.

Ignorance is the root of foolish mind.    Who said WSOD is *not* a full-blown
OS/2?   How much do you know about WSOD?


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From: sbritton@cadvision.com                            16-Dec-99 22:49:04
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 03:47:22
Subj: Re: Who runs this country?

From: "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com>

Stephen Untruth wrote:
>
> Tell me.  What would be the annual cost for you to provide the
> CPP benefits other than the retirement pension.

Irrelevant.  Small change compared to a real retirement pension.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
What have YOU done to bust a union today?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Work better: Work union-free.

Steven C. Britton
Calgary

www.cadvision.com/sbritton



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From: kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com               16-Dec-99 21:49:00
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 03:47:22
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: "Kim Cheung" <kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com>

On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 22:02:04 -0500, Jim Frost wrote:

>Oh please, this is nothing more than a bluff.  You know no one will take you
>up on it in either case; virtually no one in this group would have $50,000 to
>put up.
>

I don't bluff.    This is standard OS/2 technology that's been around for
close to 10 years.   IBM just didn't think it was important to tell people
about it.

>You'd do the same thing I'd do to restore them -- restore an image and do a
>reboot.  It should be pretty much a wash.

Well, you would have nothing to loose, right?   Why not take the chanlenge?

(Let me give you a hint: I have nothing to restore.    I simply turn off and
on the machines and they will be restore AUTOMATICALLY - and INSTANTANEOUSLY.
   So, all I will see is boot time.

Your beloved Windows machine will have to go through image restore.     

As I said, we can try this on 500 machines and see how well Windows come
out.)



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From: nenad@my-deja.com                                 17-Dec-99 08:54:00
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 05:13:08
Subj: Re: Odin handling 16-bit (win3.1) code as well?

From: Nenad Milenkovic <nenad@my-deja.com>

  "Trancser" <jbergman@ixc.ixc.net> wrote:

> I've been curious ever since hearing that a "team" is working on the
> Odin project, and that "manpower" is lacking on this project, but
> how many people are actually working on the Odin project?

If the ChangeLog is a good measure, my estimate is that about
15 developers are working on it, half of that actively and another
half contributing from time time.

Plus all Wine people (lot of Wine code is used in Odin), plus
IBM-ers who worked on Open32.

Nenad


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         17-Dec-99 09:40:03
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 10:29:26
Subj: Re: T.C.O. vs R.I.P. (Re: Cost of Ownership 

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

uno@40th.com writes:

>  ===========
> |   R.I.P.  |
> |           |
> |    OS2    |
> |           |
> | Born 1987 |
> | Died 1999 |
> |           |
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Same old "OS/2 is dead" nonsense.  "Those who ignore history are
destined to repeat it."

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         17-Dec-99 09:51:01
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 10:29:26
Subj: Re: Navigator 4.7 is available!! OS/2 is behind again!!

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Lucien writes:

>>> Your contention that the sentence is not underlyingly ambiguous

>> Where is that alleged contention?

> 1) Here is the JDK sentence:

Irrelevant, given that the sentence was written by Joseph, and is
therefore not my contention.

> "OS/2 Java 1.1.8 implements Java 1.2 functionality. "

Irrelevant, given that the sentence was written by Joseph, and is
therefore not my contention.

> Is this sentence ambiguous WRT quantification?

Irrelevant, given that the sentence was written by Joseph, and is
therefore not my contention.

I see that you once again failed to answer a question I asked.  Your
claim that I made such a contention is nothing more than another
example of your pontification.

> 2) In light of your answer to the question posed in item #1, explain
> why the two variants of the JDK sentence presented below are
> grammatical, coherent sentences of English:

Irrelevant, given that the issue is the alleged ambiguity, not
whether they are grammatical or coherent.  One can write grammatical
and coherent statements that aren't very logical.

> "OS/2 Java 1.1.8 implements some Java 1.2 functionality."
>
> "OS/2 Java 1.1.8 implements all Java 1.2 functionality."

Illogical; if all Java 1.2 functionality were implemented, why would
IBM still call it "1.1.8"?

Meanwhile, I noticed how you deleted for a second time yet another
example of mine that demonstrates another flaw in your reasoning.
I'll restore it:

] Unnecessary, because lack of ambiguity can be achieved by other means.
] For example, if you have a compact disc titled "Andre Watts Performs
] Mozart", are you going to claim that the title is ambiguous because
] "performs" could mean "some" or "all" of the music of Mozart?  In this
] case, the ambiguity is resolved because Mozart composed more music
] than can fit on a compact disc.

Amazing how unwilling you are to admit how lack of ambiguity can be
achieved in a variety of ways, such as by using words whose definitions
can make them inherently unambiguous, such as "prevent", or by the
application of logic, such as why IBM uses "1.1.8" instead of "1.2",
or a little knowledge, such as the amount of music written by Mozart.

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         17-Dec-99 09:55:19
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 10:29:26
Subj: Re: Bass digest, volume 2451530

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Today's Bass digest:

1> Apparently, this is Tholen's automated, knee-jerk response to just about
1> anything Marty may say.

Incorrect, Curtis.  It happens to be an example of Marty's response to
me.  I warned him about going down that path, yet he did anyway.  I'm
simply applying his own standards to him.

1> And Tholen has the gall to whine about others wasting bandwidth.

Typical inappropriate analogy.  You were posting mutiple responses to
the same text.  I was not.

1> Score another point for Dave and his hypocrisy.

Yet another example of your pontification.  Score another point for your
"inept" reasoning (see above for why).

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From: jpolt@bradnet.legend.co.uk                        17-Dec-99 10:08:07
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 10:29:26
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: jpolt@bradnet.legend.co.uk (John Poltorak)

In <xvzjnvpfcnztbgbtneontrqrygnargpbz.fmv6jo1.pminews@news.pacbell.net>, "Kim
Cheung" <kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com> writes:
>On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 21:32:44 -0500, Jim Frost wrote:
>
>>Ahh, but WSOD is *not* a full-blown OS/2!  It's effectively OS/2 in an NC
>>configuration.  You can do pretty well at reducing NT's COO if you strip it
>>down to NC capability levels too.
>
>Ignorance is the root of foolish mind.    Who said WSOD is *not* a full-blown
>OS/2?   How much do you know about WSOD?
>

It's hugely different! After all, when it boots up you get an IBM boot blob,
rather
than an OS/2 boot blob. That proves it is not OS/2  ;-)...

BTW I've been looking for some sources of info on RIPL on the Internet,
but have drawn a blank. IBM have very little to say about it (AFAICS),
and there is no mention of it in the IBM Developer Connection program and
that seems to cover almost every IBM software available.

I recently bought an IBM Network Station and have been trying get Warp 4
running on it - (I can't find a demo of WSOD 2 although I got sent a copy of
WSOD 1), but I can't get sound configured. MINSTALL seems to fall over if
there is no local hard disk, and I haven't come across a CID method of
installing
sound drivers.

Any pointers/suggestions would be greatfully received.

--
John



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From: jknott@ibm.net                                    17-Dec-99 06:00:01
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 10:29:26
Subj: Re: do you have OS/2 1.1?

From: jknott@ibm.net (James Knott)

In article <38579155.BB424208@frostbytes.com>,
Jim Frost <jimf@frostbytes.com> wrote:
>Dave Tholen wrote:
>> 
>> Jim Frost writes:
>> 
>> > So not only did the PC have OSs with GUIs, it even had them with fully
>> > distributed GUIs -- something OS/2 can't claim even today.
>> 
>> I guess that depends on what you call a "fully distributed" GUI.  There
>> is a product that will let you see the OS/2 desktop with a web browser.
>> That means you can run your OS/2 desktop from UNIX, for example.
>
>I stand corrected.
>
>In any case the claim that OS/2 1.1 was the first GUI-equipped OS for the PC
>was dead wrong.

Anyone remember GEM from Digital Research?  It would run (walk?) on an
XT.




-- 
E-mail jknott@ca.ibm.com
_________________________________________________________________________
The above opinions are my own and not those of ISM Corp., a subsidiary of
IBM Canada Ltd.

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From: cocke@catherders.com                              17-Dec-99 06:41:26
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 10:29:26
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: Michael W. Cocke <cocke@catherders.com>

On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 21:26:22 -0500, Jim Frost wrote:

>"Michael W. Cocke" wrote:
>> That being the case, I would guess that you don't have to deal with any
>> users but yourself or other computer literates.  At home, I support my
>> wife and son, neither of whom are real interested in learning that
>> ls -l|sort|more is how you do a dir...
>
>Actually "dir" is how you do a dir on Linux, there's an alias right out of
the
>box, but practically speaking there is a reasonably good GUI file manager in
>KDE.  It may be hard for a lot of people to believe but you can actually do a
>whole lot of work on your typical Linux system without ever touching a
command
>line.  I use my Linux desktop pretty much the same as I always used my
Windows
>desktop -- hell, KDE is practically a knockoff.

I'm aware of the GUI features available - and I keep hearing about how 
they work perfectly until they stop...  Maybe in another year or so, but
I don't think I'm ready to recommend this quite yet.

>> At work, I support around 100
>> users who think a logon has something to do with a big tree.  Yeah,
>> linux would go over real big...  (intense sarcasm).  And before you
>> start telling me that I don't know anything about linux, let me tell you
>> that I was trained at SCO, and was a systems engineer at AT&T.  I know a
>> little about *nix systems.
>
>I wouldn't say something like that unless you proved to me that you were
>confused.  Obviously you're not, although perhaps your knowledge of the
>interfaces is a little dated.

Some, yes.  It's hard to get everything done that needs to be done, let 
alone researching things that may need to be done - but I do try.

>
>I think you're stretching things to say that everyone would rebel because
they
>had to type in a user name and password; they have to do that with pretty
much
>any networking system out there.  There are certainly going to be some issues
>but they're no worse than teaching someone how to do basic things with WPS
and
>typical GUI applications.  It's all basically the same stuff.

I wasn't clear.  I don't think they'd rebel because of having to type in
a logon, I think they'd hang me because changing the OS would require a 
user interface and application software switch.  Not an option for at 
least another 15 years, preferably 20 - after I retire.

>
>> >Those "funky" Windows software packages are the whole draw for your
product.
>> >You're basically betting that the customer has so much tied up in OS/2
that
>> >they can't afford to let it go, but they need those Windows applications
bad
>> >enough to pay hundreds of dollars extra on your stuff to get them.
>> 
>> You're forgetting one thing - there's also a whole class of customer
>> that would like (very much) to run one or more win apps, but cannot/will
>> not deal with the stability issues of windows on an enterprise level,
>> the 'virus of the day', a never-ending series of compatibility and
>> security problems...
>
>I'm having a hard time seeing why it is that you wouldn't have to deal with
>these same problems in the emulation system.  Maybe they'd be more contained,
>but it strikes me that what you're really doing is buying into both Windows
>support headaches and OS/2 support headaches -- plus whatever extra support
>headaches that you get from the emulation package.

It would depend on how the idea were implemented.  If they put a wrapper
around Windows to prevent it from hassling the rest of the system, it 
could be acceptable.  I'd be willing to look at it, at least for my own 
use.  As I said before, I won't approve it for company use until I've 
had a chance to see it.

>> Personally, I'd love to be able to run a few win apps on either my
>> system at home (OS/2) or my system at work (OS/2), but I _CANNOT_ risk
>> the stability of 24/7 networks for the sake of that.
>
>If you're under the assumption that you're immune from virii et al because
>you're not running Windows then you're making a mistake.  OS/2 has few
viruses
>not because it's hard to make them (there's absolutely nothing harder about
>writing an OS/2 virus than a Win9x virus) but because there are so few OS/2
>users that it's not interesting.  OS/2 still lacks the basic features
>(particularly filesystem security) necessary to stop a virus or worm
>intrusion.

Your knowledge of OS/2 has a few errors in it. Everything from the 
phrase "if you're under the assumption" down is incorrect. I have file 
system security enabled right now, for example.  I should mention that 
if you chose to use FAT filesystem under OS/2, you deserve what you will
get - lousy performance and any number of other problems.

>
>> >That's going to be a real tough sell.  You'd be way more likely to sell
>> >something that emulated OS/2 under Windows, though I wouldn't get anywhere
>> >near that business model either.
>> 
>> VMware recently announced this product - Speaking both personally and
>> professionally (Did I mention that I'm D.I.T.?), not interested.
>[...]
>> Off the top, if what they propose would let me run win98 apps without
>> compromising stability and security (running win98), I'd spend up to
>> $300.00 at home, and another $300.00 at work, just for my personal
>> systems.  I'd expect to pay more for an enterprise solution, but would
>> have to give it more thought before I actually approved it for general
>> use.  I need another support issue like I need a lobotomy.
>
>I think you've just proven my point.  Sure, the ability to run some Windows
>apps would be valuable, but not if you got extra headaches in the mix.  And
>let's face it, you're going to get Windows headaches if you're running any
>kind of a Windows environment -- even an emulated one.  Plus whatever
problems
>you already had, plus whatever problems the emulator has.

As I said, it depends on the implementation.  Look at the windows 3.1 
emulation in OS/2 - that was faster and more stable (substantially!) 
than windows native.

>I've used products like these for more than a decade and a half and while
they
>sometimes have their uses they do not tend to work as well as a native
>solution -- and they tend to cost more, too.  If you need the application bad
>enough you should run it native.

Not while the system has to stay up...



-------------------------------------------------------------------
         Please note:  My Email and web page addresses have changed!
                The new email address is cocke@catherders.com   
                 The web page is at http://www.catherders.com

               Because network administration is like herding cats.

-------------------------------------------------------------------



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From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com                           17-Dec-99 07:54:13
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 10:29:26
Subj: Re: When will it be 100% done?

From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com>

On <3859801A.19CD6049@stny.rr.com>, on 12/16/99 at 07:13 PM,
   Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> said:

> Ok, Boob, explain how having Plug N Play hardware makes OS/2 easier to
> set up, if you think you can.  (Gentle reminder:  OS/2 is not Win9x
> which automatically detects your PnP hardware and installs a driver for
> it.)

Absolute proof you are a total fraud. If you have supported PnP hardware,
Warp 4 finds and installs drivers for same. If you were not a fraud, you
would not have been so absolutely stupid as to post the above.

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------

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From: kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com               17-Dec-99 05:27:27
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 20:07:15
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: "Kim Cheung" <kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com>

On 17 Dec 1999 10:08:15 GMT, John Poltorak wrote:

>In <xvzjnvpfcnztbgbtneontrqrygnargpbz.fmv6jo1.pminews@news.pacbell.net>, "Kim 
Cheung" <kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com> writes:
>>On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 21:32:44 -0500, Jim Frost wrote:
>>
>>>Ahh, but WSOD is *not* a full-blown OS/2!  It's effectively OS/2 in an NC
>>>configuration.  You can do pretty well at reducing NT's COO if you strip it
>>>down to NC capability levels too.
>>
>>Ignorance is the root of foolish mind.    Who said WSOD is *not* a
full-blown
>>OS/2?   How much do you know about WSOD?
>>
>
>It's hugely different! After all, when it boots up you get an IBM boot blob,
rather
>than an OS/2 boot blob. That proves it is not OS/2  ;-)...
>

ROFL!!!

>BTW I've been looking for some sources of info on RIPL on the Internet,
>but have drawn a blank. IBM have very little to say about it (AFAICS),
>and there is no mention of it in the IBM Developer Connection program and
>that seems to cover almost every IBM software available.

You're looking under the wrong title.    WsOD over DHCP/PXE has been there
since ver 2.0.    It takes a lot longer then RPL though.

>
>I recently bought an IBM Network Station and have been trying get Warp 4
>running on it - (I can't find a demo of WSOD 2 although I got sent a copy of
>WSOD 1), but I can't get sound configured. MINSTALL seems to fall over if
>there is no local hard disk, and I haven't come across a CID method of
installing
>sound drivers.
>
>Any pointers/suggestions would be greatfully received.
>

Save yourself some grey hair - get WiseManager (shameless plug).   Check out
www.serenity-systems.com.




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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tim@jacqueline.prestel.co.uk                      17-Dec-99 13:40:23
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 20:07:15
Subj: Re: +++GET YOUR FREE PENTIUM CELERON-300+++____________________________

From: "Tim Cannell" <tim@jacqueline.prestel.co.uk>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0105_01BF4894.532497D0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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------=_NextPart_000_0105_01BF4894.532497D0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
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<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px;
PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
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From: jimf@frostbytes.com                               17-Dec-99 08:43:19
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 20:07:15
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: Jim Frost <jimf@frostbytes.com>

Chris Stumpf wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 22:04:18 -0500, Jim Frost wrote:
> :>I've been wondering about this claim.  It seems to me that raw data copy
> :>performance would put you well beyond that point.  It takes on the order
of 5
> :>minutes to re-ghost a Windows system, for instance.  Now, I know OS/2 is
> :>smaller, but it's not two orders of magnitude smaller.
> :>
> :>How is it managed?
> 
> You are thinking like windows.  Stop for just a few seconds and clear you
> mind.

Will you give me the benefit of the doubt for a minute?  I'm not a
Windows-head; even though I may decide that it gets the job done fairly well
sometimes I'm much more inclined to use something else.  But I do have some
preconceived notions and clearly they aren't always right.  I hadn't known
about the RIPL option.

> Now, here is how it works.  IBM placed the ability to do RIPL over the
> network.  RIPL stands for Remote Initial Program Load.  All the files for
> each workstation reside on the server.  No hard drive is required in the
> workstation, although if there is one, it can be used for virtual memory
swap
> space to reduce network traffic.

OK, it's effectively a diskless workstation arrangement.  I had been presuming
a more standard PC setup, and my arguments were skewed as a result.

Before you go off thinking that this is some cool technology IBM thought up,
Sun did this back in the mid 80s.  For awhile there the Sun 3/50 diskless
systems were terrifically popular -- you could save a grand or so per machine
by not including a disk.  But there were some problems.

Total reliance on the network required a lot more network and server bandwidth
to support.  Clusters didn't scale well; beyond a few tens of systems you'd
crush a server, and single ethernet segments tended to collapse at about 15
workstations.

By the late 80s your typical workstation cluster was dataless; a local drive
held the OS and applications and swap and you worked with data that was
centrally stored.  That was a huge, huge win in both performance and
scalability, but if your applications were data-hungry you still bottlenecked
on the network.

Worst of all, both of these designs made the network and server systems single
points of failure.  Lose a server and you lose a whole cluster of
workstations.  (But then you can go play ping-pong, so it wasn't a total loss
from a workstation users's point of view.)

It may be the case that network infrastructure capabilities have expanded to
the point where this is a lot more practical; after all, 100Mbps switched
ethernet is the norm rather than 10Mbps shared.  Unfortunately the data got
bigger too, a lot bigger, so it might be a wash.  And in terms of TCO,
switched ethernet systems add hundreds of dollars per user before you even
talk about server requirements.

Now, the PC world tried this kind of arrangement right around 1988 or 1989 and
rapidly abandoned it.  I presumed they had the same scalability problems.

There are, of course, a number of situations in which a diskless or dataless
arrangement will work very well -- for instance, if you are running
applications that require very little data.  A web application or terminal
application would be a fine example of that, hence the big NC push (Sun really
wanted to sell NCs that were little more than the same diskless workstations
they were selling years ago).  But general office environments use their PCs
for a lot of data management, and diskless/dataless arrangements don't work so
well then.  This kind of thing would be terrific at a bank though, they
usually just use PCs as terminals to back-end apps.

> Does this explain things a little better for you?

Yes, thank you.

jim

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From: jmalloy@borg.com                                  17-Dec-99 08:32:19
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 20:07:15
Subj: Re: Tholen digest, volume 2451530.45234^-.943968743877857

From: "Joe Malloy" <jmalloy@borg.com>

Today's Tholen drivel digest:

[None, save his endless pontificating...]

That's it!  Glad to have been of service!


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From: jimf@frostbytes.com                               17-Dec-99 08:58:25
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 20:07:15
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: Jim Frost <jimf@frostbytes.com>

Chris Stumpf wrote:
> :>These exist for Win9x too, and yet they don't affect COO noticably.  It's
just
> :>too easy to get around them.  You need the lock-down ability in the OS
proper,
> :>not layered onto the desktop, because typical applications allow numerous
> :>gateways to OS features.
> :>
> OS/2 has the hooks for C-2 level security built into the OS and there are
> several addons that take advantage of this.  OS/2 can be made secure with
> little effort as it does not have the holes that Windows does.

I wasn't aware of this.  That does help a whole lot.  I really wish they'd put
the security in the box, though, I'm really not keen on layered technologies. 
Usually there are gaps in the layers.

As for whether or not Windows has holes, well, I track NT security problems
and almost all of the problems with NT security amount to not bothering to use
the security.

> :>Your figures totally ignore the network infrastructure cost of these
systems.
> :>They are now totally dependent on the network -- and network
infrastructure is
> :>many times more expensive than local disk and slower to boot.
> :>
> :>We used to use this configuration with Sun 3/50 hardware.  It sure did
make
> :>administration easy, but we had to have many times the network and server
> :>capability to support it. [...]
>
> Now you are talking about Xwindows.  This is a different animal altogether.

No, I wasn't talking X.  This was before there was an X11; we were still using
SunView (traditional node-locked graphics).  The arrangement was identical to
what you're describing.

> The servers are doing the program execution and spewing graphics over the
> network.  I can support 30 machines on one server and not a huge server at
> that.

That number sounds realistic to me, even conservative.

> So, I realize you are talking from your experience, but the
> technologies are so very different.

Virtually identical.  Even the scalability numbers are surprisingly close.

jim

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From: jimf@frostbytes.com                               17-Dec-99 09:16:11
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 20:07:15
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: Jim Frost <jimf@frostbytes.com>

"Michael W. Cocke" wrote:
> >It may be hard for a lot of people to believe but you can actually do a
> >whole lot of work on your typical Linux system without ever touching a
command
> >line.  I use my Linux desktop pretty much the same as I always used my
Windows
> >desktop -- hell, KDE is practically a knockoff.
> 
> I'm aware of the GUI features available - and I keep hearing about how
> they work perfectly until they stop...  Maybe in another year or so, but
> I don't think I'm ready to recommend this quite yet.

I can understand your reticence, but believe me -- things have progressed
remarkably fast.  What you may have seen patched together even six months ago
is nowhere near what is available out-of-the-box today.  I'm not joking when I
say that Linux is progressing faster than anything in history.

> >I think you're stretching things to say that everyone would rebel because
they
> >had to type in a user name and password; they have to do that with pretty
much
> >any networking system out there.  There are certainly going to be some
issues
> >but they're no worse than teaching someone how to do basic things with WPS
and
> >typical GUI applications.  It's all basically the same stuff.
> 
> I wasn't clear.  I don't think they'd rebel because of having to type in
> a logon, I think they'd hang me because changing the OS would require a
> user interface and application software switch.  Not an option for at
> least another 15 years, preferably 20 - after I retire.

Ok, that I can really buy.  I've had to put people through OS changes three
times in my career, and they always go nuts over it -- even if the basic
interface they use really didn't change.  I think it's fear more than
anything, because it never took them too long to get used to (a few weeks even
for the slow ones) and usually they were pleased to get new capabilities
(though those took a lot longer to percolate through the user base).  The
really tough conversion was CLI to GUI; they all had to learn to use a mouse. 
Thank God that was in the days before you had to use drag-and-drop for
everything. :-)

I think you're mistaken if you think you can hold users to something similar
to what they're using now for 15 years.  The hardware is going to change
dramatically in the next few years -- much more mobile in particular, and very
network-centric.  We're in the early adopter stage of the next generation
now.  Five years from now the entire landscape of computing will look much
different.

> Your knowledge of OS/2 has a few errors in it. Everything from the
> phrase "if you're under the assumption" down is incorrect. I have file
> system security enabled right now, for example.  I should mention that
> if you chose to use FAT filesystem under OS/2, you deserve what you will
> get - lousy performance and any number of other problems.

Thanks, clearly I was operating under misconceptions.  As for FAT, I tend to
believe that you deserve what you get no matter what OS you're using it with
:-).

> >I think you've just proven my point.  Sure, the ability to run some Windows
> >apps would be valuable, but not if you got extra headaches in the mix.  And
> >let's face it, you're going to get Windows headaches if you're running any
> >kind of a Windows environment -- even an emulated one.  Plus whatever
problems
> >you already had, plus whatever problems the emulator has.
> 
> As I said, it depends on the implementation.  Look at the windows 3.1
> emulation in OS/2 - that was faster and more stable (substantially!)
> than windows native.

That wouldn't have been hard :-).  It was certainly true of Win3.1 emulation
under NT too.  But Win-OS/2 was done with the aid of source code; you can bet
your bottom dollar that you're not going to have Win9x source code to work
from, so you're fighting Microsoft all the way.

I think the only sane approach to doing this is a VM.

> >I've used products like these for more than a decade and a half and while
they
> >sometimes have their uses they do not tend to work as well as a native
> >solution -- and they tend to cost more, too.  If you need the application
bad
> >enough you should run it native.
> 
> Not while the system has to stay up...

Don't run it native on a critical system.

jim

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From: lucien@metrowerks.com                             17-Dec-99 14:08:12
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 20:07:15
Subj: Re: Navigator 4.7 is available!! OS/2 is behind again!!

From: lucien@metrowerks.com

In article <83d126$fq9$2@news.hawaii.edu>,
  tholenantispam@hawaii.edu wrote:
> Lucien writes:
>
> Irrelevant, given that the sentence was written by Joseph, and is
> therefore not my contention.

Smart move.
The reader will note that Dave does not commit to a position on the JDK
sentence explicitly - a good idea, given that the evidence presented so
far demonstrates conclusively that any he might take in opposition to
mine is easily countered.

> I see that you once again failed to answer a question I asked.

The reader will note that Dave has provided no answer to the (central)
question put to him and has merely presented diversionary irrelevancies
instead.

Here is the question again:

Is the JDK sentence ambiguous WRT (grammatical) quantification?

The reader is informed that any continued absence of any explicit
answer from Dave will constitute an implicit reply of:

"The JDK sentence is not ambiguous WRT (grammatical) quantification."

and I will continue the debate from here on that basis.

Lucien S.


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

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From: spamtrap@cds-inc.com                              17-Dec-99 14:20:13
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 20:07:15
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: spamtrap@cds-inc.com (Brad Benson)

"Kim Cheung" <kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com> wrote:

] Brad,
] 
] We are talking about the 'rebuid' time - not boot time.
] 

So how long would it take, assuming the client was 100% blank (hard
disk failure / complete system replacement / etc.), to completely
rebuild it?  More than seconds, I would assume.  As I said, if you
discard the time needed to boot the PC and load whatever disaster
recovery software / network software / whatever, then it's possible
but under the same rules you can do that with something like InfoZip
or one of the commercial backup applications.

I'm not knocking WiseManager, I'm just trying to understand how DR is
so much faster with it than without it.

Cheers,

Brad
replace "spamtrap" with "benson" in my reply address

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From: hemo_jr@attglobal.net                             17-Dec-99 08:38:23
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 20:07:15
Subj: Re: do you have OS/2 1.1?

From: "Matt Hickman" <hemo_jr@attglobal.net>

In <zehW4odSRUfS089yn@ibm.net>, on 12/17/99 
   at 06:00 AM, jknott@ibm.net (James Knott) said:
>>
>>In any case the claim that OS/2 1.1 was the first GUI-equipped OS for the PC
>>was dead wrong.

>Anyone remember GEM from Digital Research?  It would run (walk?) on an
>XT.

Was TopView a GUI front end or was text based?

-- 
Matt Hickman     
  The death rate is the same for us as for 
  anybody...one person, one death, sooner or later.
                    - Robert A. Heinlein (1907-1988)
                     _Tunnel in the Sky_ (c 1955)

** Join "The Heinleiners" a SETI@home club **
http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/stats/team/team_17222.html

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From: kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com               17-Dec-99 07:23:17
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 20:07:15
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: "Kim Cheung" <kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com>

On Fri, 17 Dec 1999 08:43:39 -0500, Jim Frost wrote:

>OK, it's effectively a diskless workstation arrangement.  I had been
presuming
>a more standard PC setup, and my arguments were skewed as a result.
>
>Before you go off thinking that this is some cool technology IBM thought up,
>Sun did this back in the mid 80s.  For awhile there the Sun 3/50 diskless
>systems were terrifically popular -- you could save a grand or so per machine
>by not including a disk.  But there were some problems.
>

The concept of RPL is as old as there are dumb terminals.   The devel is in
the details.    We are not talking about rocket science here.     IBM had
RPL.   Novell had RPL.   Sun had RPL.    Even NT can RPL - if you believe
them.

>Total reliance on the network required a lot more network and server
bandwidth
>to support.  

Well, what is "a lot".     Let's look at that.     First of all, the Warp 4
kernel is very small - less than 1M: around 700K or so.    Once you booted,
you never need to boot the second time because you can go into sleep mode (or
roll out as CDC would call it; instant on as WsOD would call it) when you
turn off the local machine.    The next time you need to boot, it comes alive
with virtually no load on the network.

As for server loading, because your processing is decentralized (as they
should be - hello - Citrix), there is hardly any load off the server.

>Clusters didn't scale well; beyond a few tens of systems you'd
>crush a server, 

Not true with the OS/2 RPL.    I believe the largest implementation is in the
4 digit numbers.

>and single ethernet segments tended to collapse at about 15
>workstations.

Token ring would be the best - of course - let's not get into that.   With
the cost of ethernet switches these days, that's hardly an issue anymore.

>
>By the late 80s your typical workstation cluster was dataless; a local drive
>held the OS and applications and swap and you worked with data that was
>centrally stored.  That was a huge, huge win in both performance and
>scalability, but if your applications were data-hungry you still bottlenecked
>on the network.

A properly designed and implemented diskless network would not have such a
problem.    Mind you that when we say "diskless" - we are referring to the
term in a "virtual" sense - not a physical sense.    You can still have local
hard drive - to reduce network bandwidth loading - but it's a  "virtual"
drive.   What you try to do is to cut the "dependency" - not the physical
media.

>
>Worst of all, both of these designs made the network and server systems
single
>points of failure.  Lose a server and you lose a whole cluster of
>workstations.  (But then you can go play ping-pong, so it wasn't a total loss
>from a workstation users's point of view.)

I don't know who started this non-sense.    In reliability engineering, what
you want to do is to HAVE a single point of failure whereby you can
strengthen up that single point of failure to any degree of reliability.   
Server farm is one stupid idea.    There is good reason why lots of
enterprise are starting junking their server farms and gone back to
main-frames.

>
>It may be the case that network infrastructure capabilities have expanded to
>the point where this is a lot more practical; after all, 100Mbps switched
>ethernet is the norm rather than 10Mbps shared.  Unfortunately the data got
>bigger too, a lot bigger, so it might be a wash.  And in terms of TCO,
>switched ethernet systems add hundreds of dollars per user before you even
>talk about server requirements.
>
>Now, the PC world tried this kind of arrangement right around 1988 or 1989
and
>rapidly abandoned it.  I presumed they had the same scalability problems.


Time has changed.    (a) Technology caught up with things (b) whether you do
this or not, most operations depend on the network being up ANYWAY for them
to function.   So what's the difference?    I know of one case where they
distribute, replicate, and maintain a 1G database in 500 stations - in the
name of saving network bandwidth.

How studpid.

Network engineering is pretty mature.    You just have to do the job right.

>
>There are, of course, a number of situations in which a diskless or dataless
>arrangement will work very well -- for instance, if you are running
>applications that require very little data.  A web application or terminal
>application would be a fine example of that, hence the big NC push (Sun
really
>wanted to sell NCs that were little more than the same diskless workstations
>they were selling years ago).  But general office environments use their PCs
>for a lot of data management, and diskless/dataless arrangements don't work
so
>well then.  This kind of thing would be terrific at a bank though, they
>usually just use PCs as terminals to back-end apps.

For data intense situations, it makes it that much more important to have
redundency and protection of that data.    With thousands of the stations
distributed, who's managing those data?   The end-user?   Who's handling
recovery?   The end-user?   (Sure, they back up all the time, right?   We
know how useful distributed backups are).   If you're saying I can automate
it and upload them from time to time, well, guess what?    In this env,
that's done AUTOMATICALLY.

The thing is to remember is that in OS/2, the term "diskless" is virtual -
not physical.




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From: cstumpf@monmouth.com                              17-Dec-99 10:32:04
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 20:07:15
Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2

From: "Chris Stumpf" <cstumpf@monmouth.com>

On Fri, 17 Dec 1999 08:58:50 -0500, Jim Frost wrote:


--snip--

:>> Now you are talking about Xwindows.  This is a different animal
altogether.
:>
:>No, I wasn't talking X.  This was before there was an X11; we were still
using
:>SunView (traditional node-locked graphics).  The arrangement was identical
to
:>what you're describing.
:>

Sorry, my mistake.  I'm not familiar with SunView.  Could you explian it in a
little more detail?

:>> The servers are doing the program execution and spewing graphics over the
:>> network.  I can support 30 machines on one server and not a huge server at
:>> that.
:>
:>That number sounds realistic to me, even conservative.
:>
Actually it is conservative.  The worst bottle neck in the entire system is
network bandwidth.  And that is really only a huge problem at boot time. 
During regular use, the demands on the network are not terribly great.  

:>> So, I realize you are talking from your experience, but the
:>> technologies are so very different.
:>
:>Virtually identical.  Even the scalability numbers are surprisingly close.

Again, I'm not familiar with sunview, please explain more.

		Chris Stumpf
		C.S.E. Computer Services
		Computer Consultant (OS/2, Lan, Wan, CTI)
		Serenity Systems Channel Partner
		IBM Certified Systems Expert - OS/2 Warp 4
		

web:    http://cse.anterras.net
email:	cse@anterras.net
phone: (732)496-4699



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From: lennart-remove-@plg.-remove-a.se                  17-Dec-99 16:57:13
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 20:07:15
Subj: Re: do you have OS/2 1.1?

From: "Lennart Gahm" <lennart-remove-@plg.-remove-a.se>

On Fri, 17 Dec 1999 06:00:03 -0500, James Knott wrote:

>In article <38579155.BB424208@frostbytes.com>,
>Jim Frost <jimf@frostbytes.com> wrote:
>>Dave Tholen wrote:
>>> 
>>> Jim Frost writes:
>>> 
>>> > So not only did the PC have OSs with GUIs, it even had them with fully
>>> > distributed GUIs -- something OS/2 can't claim even today.
>>> 
>>> I guess that depends on what you call a "fully distributed" GUI.  There
>>> is a product that will let you see the OS/2 desktop with a web browser.
>>> That means you can run your OS/2 desktop from UNIX, for example.
>>
>>I stand corrected.
>>
>>In any case the claim that OS/2 1.1 was the first GUI-equipped OS for the PC
>>was dead wrong.
>
>Anyone remember GEM from Digital Research?  It would run (walk?) on an
>XT.

One of my customers still uses GEM, mostly on a 286. It controls a
measurement instrument from Br�l&Kj‘r. GEM isn't (wasn't) that bad but it
uses a different way to control buttons from the keyboard than OS/2 or
Windows, no Ctrl/Alt + something more. It is litte frustrating...
If DR had continued to dewelop GEM it could have been as graphical as what we
are use to to day.
GEM was an interface on top of DOS like W3.x/95/98, but they could't survive
the Microsoft monopoly. 
Bye the way, Br�l&Kj‘r could newer get their application to run reliably on
Windows in those days.
If you run GEM on modern hardware it is extremly fast, and it needs almost no
memory or big hard-disks.
 
 


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From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               17-Dec-99 12:10:13
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 20:07:15
Subj: Re: When will it be 100% done?

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Bob Germer wrote:
> 
> On <3859801A.19CD6049@stny.rr.com>, on 12/16/99 at 07:13 PM,
>    Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> said:
> 
> > Ok, Boob, explain how having Plug N Play hardware makes OS/2 easier to
> > set up, if you think you can.  (Gentle reminder:  OS/2 is not Win9x
> > which automatically detects your PnP hardware and installs a driver for
> > it.)
> 
> Absolute proof you are a total fraud.

Not even close.

> If you have supported PnP hardware,

Here's what I have that is PnP:
1] 3Com 3c595
2] SB32 ISA PnP
3] Matrox Millenium II
4] VIA VP2 IDE chipset

> Warp 4 finds and installs drivers for same.

It did not for any of the above mentioned items (unless you foolishly
wish to contend that it did for my IDE chipset using the standard
IBM1S506 driver).  Which hardware is "supported"?  Name 3 items, if you
can.

The extent of the Plug N Play configuration I've seen in OS/2 is the
"Full Hardware detection" option on bootup (or in the properties page of
OS/2 System IIRC) which doesn't seem to do much of anything for me.  I
still had to install all of the drivers myself.  I still had to pick all
of the IRQs.  Furthermore, it was not a difficult task.

> If you were not a fraud, you would not have been so absolutely stupid as to
post 
> the above.

If you were not a fraud, you would respond to my challenge, instead of
running away from it as you have, yet again:
"Bob, I don't know everything about OS/2, but I'd wager that I know more
about the guts of OS/2 than you do, and I'm prepared to prove it.  You,
on the other hand are content to meerly throw around baseless fairy
tales and run away.  I guess I shouldn't be surprised, given your brand
of 'advocacy'."

I also can see that you've given up on your other losing arguments. 
Kudos to you.

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From: cbass2112@my-deja.com                             17-Dec-99 17:33:02
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 20:07:15
Subj: Re: Bass digest, volume 2451530

From: cbass2112@my-deja.com

In article <83d1ar$fq9$3@news.hawaii.edu>,
  tholenantispam@hawaii.edu wrote:
> Today's Bass digest:
>
> 1> Apparently, this is Tholen's automated, knee-jerk response to just
> 1> about anything Marty may say.
>
> Incorrect, Curtis.  It happens to be an example of Marty's response to
> me.  I warned him about going down that path, yet he did anyway.  I'm
> simply applying his own standards to him.

I'm not interested in your lame justifications, Dave. Repeating the same
response three times in one post, and literally dozens of times in
another, cetainly *looks* like an automated, knee-jerk response. That
you would deny such was expected, and not at all surprising.

> 1> And Tholen has the gall to whine about others wasting bandwidth.
>
> Typical inappropriate analogy.  You were posting mutiple responses to
> the same text.  I was not.

There is no "analogy" to criticize as being "inappropriate," Dave.
Repeating a given response multiple times in one post certainly
qualifies as "wasting bandwidth" if multiple responses to one post so
qualifies.

I await your inevitable pontifications to the contrary . . .

> 1> Score another point for Dave and his hypocrisy.
>
> Yet another example of your pontification.  Score another point for
> your "inept" reasoning (see above for why).

What I "see above" is your own fumbling over English -- again.

Although you have a PhD, Dr. Dave, your grasp of English is alarmingly
weak, your "above average" evaluations in your "highest rated program in
the Alpha Quadrant" notwithstanding (you tend to trot out your
accomplishments, such as they are, at every opportunity, as if they
absolve you of being just another sanctimonious, pontificating boor).


Curtis


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

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From: J.Harbinson@ATO.DLO.NL                            17-Dec-99 18:37:19
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 20:07:15
Subj: Re: Cost of Ownership 

From: "DLO News" <J.Harbinson@ATO.DLO.NL>

It is nice to get a message from someone at IBM that is positive concerning
OS/2.  I hope you are able to persuade others at IBM of the wisdom of futher
support and development of OS/2 - hopefully on the clinet side as well as
the server.
all the best and good luck,
Jeremy Harbinson

Timothy Sipples wrote in message <38594517.99BDE8B9@us.iNoSPAMbm.com>...
>Last time I checked, the math worked something like this:
>
>- OS/2 Warp "fat client" has about a 20% lower total cost of ownership than
>Windows NT
>- WorkSpace On-Demand (either flavor, but particularly the Optimized
Client)
>has a
>  roughly 40% lower total cost of ownership than Windows NT
>
>These figures represent the average of conservative third party models.
(In
>other words, they could be underestimates.  There's some anecdotal evidence
>to suggest that.)  The figures seem to be confirmed by what customers tell
>us themselves.
>
>By the way, IBM's services arm is very enthusiastic about helping companies
>adopt Windows 2000.  It constitutes a large amount of services revenue, and
>if companies are willing to spend the money, we're happy to help.  :-)
>
>Some companies obviously choose Windows despite the fact that, on average,
>it has a higher total cost.  If the benefits of that choice exceed the
>higher cost, for each given user, then it's a wise business decision.  But
>frankly we (IBM) would (generally :-)) like to see technology costs headed
>lower, not higher.  Network computing and e-business is in large part about
>lowering costs.
>
>Chris Stumpf wrote:
>> :>COO for NT is way lower than either OS/2 or Win9x (you can easily lock
down
>> :>the configuration against changes, deliberate or accidental); it's a
really
>> :>viable corporate system at this point and still way cheaper than this
product.
>> Show us something to back up your claims that Cost of Ownership is lower
for
>> NT that OS/2.  NT requrires more hardware than OS/2 and more support
people
>> per x number of users than OS/2.  There are banks using OS/2 that won't
drop
>> it for NT because banks hate spending money and if they switched to NT,
they
>> would need 3-4 times the number of support personnel and ALL new hardware
>> from servers to desktops.
>
>--
>Timothy Sipples
>IBM Network Computing Software
>Chicago, Illinois
>Web: http://www.satdirect.com/aviation


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From: tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu                17-Dec-99 13:50:22
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 20:07:15
Subj: Re: Navigator 4.7 is available!! OS/2 is behind again!!

From: tholenbot <tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu>

In article <83dg4l$o47$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, lucien@metrowerks.com wrote:

> In article <83d126$fq9$2@news.hawaii.edu>,
>   tholenantispam@hawaii.edu wrote:
> > Lucien writes:
> >
> > Irrelevant, given that the sentence was written by Joseph, and is
> > therefore not my contention.
> 
> Smart move.
> The reader will note that Dave does not commit to a position on the JDK
> sentence explicitly - a good idea, given that the evidence presented so
> far demonstrates conclusively that any he might take in opposition to
> mine is easily countered.

The positions Dave does or does not commit to are irrelevant.

-- 
I do not 'approve' phrases.
-Dave Tholen

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From: kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com               17-Dec-99 12:12:17
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 20:07:16
Subj: Re: Cost of Ownership 

From: "Kim Cheung" <kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com>

On Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:37:38 +0100, DLO News wrote:

>It is nice to get a message from someone at IBM that is positive concerning
>OS/2.  

There are MANY at IBM that are positive concerning OS/2.   (Of course, many
are not).


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From: tgal@pobox.com                                    17-Dec-99 14:59:00
  To: All                                               17-Dec-99 20:07:16
Subj: Wow!  Warp-4 rocks!

From: "Austy Garhi (n. d'e-pl.)" <tgal@pobox.com>

My Pentium Pro is churning with SETI@home for extrater-
restrials, while holding a live 56k connection to 
the Web, while PRE-EMPTIVELY running 142 threads for 
39 Warp-4 SPANKING processes . . .  bite me!!

I've seen SPARCstations crash with a dozen simultaneous
processes.  I've seen DEC VAXes slow to a crawl.  After 
Fixpak-12 for my Warp-4/Pentium Pro system I must admit:

OS/2 IS THE MOTHER OF ALL BORGS!!  Maan, this baby rocks.

Try that on any of the Wintoys--hah!

AFTERTHOUGHT: what the @#$@'s wrong with IBM?!

-- 
 ===>  tgal@pobox.com

¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸
InfoBaHn on:  Rockwell, Netscape, InJOY, and OS/2
____________________________________________________
((( BOXER )))  fassst, 32-bit character mode editor

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¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸
((( InJOY ))) INTERNET DIALER apparatus EXTRAORDINAIRE!

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¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸¸
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