
                   comp.os.os2.marketplace          (Usenet)

                 Saturday, 11-Dec-1999 to Friday, 17-Dec-1999

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: williamd1@attglobal.net                           11-Dec-99 04:39:09
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 03:29:26
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: williamd1@attglobal.net (williamd)

This sounds *great*; thanks for posting the info! Here's hoping they
choose an appropriate domain name- like os2online or something!!

Bill

__
williamd1@attglobal.net

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From: mgreene@exis.net                                  11-Dec-99 00:05:19
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 03:29:26
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: "Michael K Greene" <mgreene@exis.net>

On Fri, 10 Dec 1999 17:32:00 -0800, Tim Martin wrote:

>Here's some hot news for all you NON-Warp City Members:

Tim,

Any other company would get a "great!!!", but let's look at who you are
talking about - Innoval???? 

>Tim Martin
>The OS/2 Guy
>Warp City (http://warpcity.com)
>"Y2K Special Discount Memberships Close 12/15!)
>

Michael K Greene <mgreene@exis.net>     |      OS/2 Warp / Linux / Win95-311



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From: hunters@sapphire.indstate.edu                     11-Dec-99 06:22:04
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 03:29:27
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: hunters@sapphire.indstate.edu

In article <3851A98F.459420AF@WarpCity.com>,
  OS2Guy@WarpCity.com wrote:

> Here's some hot news for all you NON-Warp City Members:

Look, don't bother doing us any "favors"...

--
-Steven Hunter                *OS/2 Warp 4 * |But on the other hand...|
hunters@sapphire.indstate.edu *AMD K6-2 400* |There's 5 more fingers. |


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

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From: andrew@netneurotic.de                             11-Dec-99 09:45:17
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 05:07:10
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: andrew@netneurotic.de (Andrew J. Brehm)

Michael K Greene <mgreene@exis.net> wrote:

> On Fri, 10 Dec 1999 17:32:00 -0800, Tim Martin wrote:
> 
> >Here's some hot news for all you NON-Warp City Members:
> 
> Tim,
> 
> Any other company would get a "great!!!", but let's look at who you are
> talking about - Innoval???? 

Why? What's wrong with Innoval?

-- 
Fan of Woody Allen
User of MacOS, BeOS, LinuxPPC
Supporter of Pepperoni Pizza

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From: rde@tavi.co.uk                                    11-Dec-99 09:17:10
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 10:16:29
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: rde@tavi.co.uk (Bob Eager)

On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 07:45:35, andrew@netneurotic.de (Andrew J. Brehm) 
wrote:

> Why? What's wrong with Innoval?

This is the company that quietly dropped support for, first, their 
newsreader, then (not so quietly) BOTH their OS/2 mail clients. 
Leaving loyal users out in the cold.

-- 
Bob Eager
rde at tavi.co.uk
PC Server 325; PS/2s 8595*3, 9595*3 (2*P60 + P90), 8535, 8570, 9556*2,
8580*6,
8557*2, 8550, 9577, 8530, P70, PC/AT..

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: l_luciano@da.mob                                  11-Dec-99 10:02:25
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 10:16:29
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: l_luciano@da.mob (Stan Goodman)

On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 09:17:20, rde@tavi.co.uk (Bob Eager) wrote:

> On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 07:45:35, andrew@netneurotic.de (Andrew J. Brehm) 
> wrote:
> 
> > Why? What's wrong with Innoval?
> 
> This is the company that quietly dropped support for, first, their 
> newsreader, then (not so quietly) BOTH their OS/2 mail clients. 
> Leaving loyal users out in the cold.

.., thus proving conclusively that Innoval was in business to pay the 
grocery bills, rather than to promote OS/2. For the record, I use OS/2 
exclusively, but you really can't demand that a company put its resources 
into projects that don't pay back.

Happily, Innoval's Java-based mail client, "J Street Mailer", is now being 
developed and supported by users, and is now called "Polarbar". It is, as a
consequence, much improved over its condition when it was still an Innoval 
product, although it is still in its Beta phase. Things, you see, do 
sometimes work out for the best.

-------------
Stan Goodman
Qiryat Tiv'on
Israel

E-mail sent to l_luciano@da.mob will, of course, not reach me. Sorry.
Send E-mail to: domain: hashkedim dot com, username: stan.


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From: innoval@ibm.net                                   11-Dec-99 16:35:15
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 14:33:26
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: innoval@ibm.net

In article <zterrarrkvfarg.fmk8te0.pminews@news.exis.net>,
  "Michael K Greene" <mgreene@hotbot.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Dec 1999 17:32:00 -0800, Tim Martin wrote:
> Any other company would get a "great!!!", but let's look at who you
> are talking about - Innoval????

Okay. Let's get some facts straight before this goes to far off topic.

AFST is actually offering ISP800 to OS/2 users, not InnoVal. Read the
details and the FAQ at isp800.com/os2/. I, Dan Porter, sought and
engineered the deal for OS/2 users. Anyone else (any supporter and user
of OS/2 like myself) could have done it just as easily. InnoVal may have
withdrawn from the OS/2 software market, but InnoVal still has OS/2
users and supporters, and the company does recognize that OS/2 users
WERE important to us and ARE important to us.

I, personally, and InnoVal, have a vested interest in AFST. When AFST
closes a big multi-user deal (and they have closed some very big deals)
I and InnoVal earn something for our efforts. I would be surprised if
OS/2 users as a group (oh, I wish it could be so) will be a big enough
deal to earn us anything -- certainly not at the prices being offered to
OS/2 users. It was just something that I wanted to do.

I've seen what AFST brings to the table with 65 tech support people (all
trained unfortunately in Windows stuff), 800 re-routed access, high
bandwidth, high capacity email, etc. It's a good deal, even if you don't
like InnoVal. All InnoVal did was try to bring you a good price when
AFST launches public consumer service under the ISP800 brand.

I was the one who pulled the plug on InnoVal's direct involvement with
OS/2 software. It was a financial thing that investors get concerned
about. Add to that, that as a company, we were not good enough with
support in the consumer marketplace. I thought we could be, but I was
mistaken. The market wasn't there anymore. So blame me. Not InnoVal.

InnoVal, BTW, is lobbying for OS/2 solutions, support, etc. with AFST
and its business partners and vendors. We are not doing so because we
are emotionally attached to OS/2 but because, in some areas, it makes
good business sense.

ISP800 makes good business sense. I feel good that we (all of us who
want to be a part of this) are, in a small way, involving two new
vendors (AFST and National Dialup) in the OS/2 world.

Dan Porter, President
InnoVal Systems Solutions, Inc.




Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

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From: OS2Guy@WarpCity.com                               11-Dec-99 09:51:05
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 16:33:28
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com>

williamd wrote:

> This sounds *great*; thanks for posting the info! Here's hoping they
> choose an appropriate domain name- like os2online or something!!
>
> Bill
> __
> williamd1@attglobal.net

Thanks Bill.  InnoVal actually engineered the low-cost
deal for OS/2 users in partnership with AFST (Advanced
Family Safe Technologies, Inc) and it is a great deal for
OS/2 users.

Get in now and it is only $12 a month for an entire year
with  56k connections, 100% dialup access either locally
or through an 800 number (and that includes Hawaii, Alaska
and Puerto Rico), 24 hours a day, 7 days a week access.
Go to any other vendor and ask for a discount because
you use OS/2 and they ignore you.  Sign up with them
and any OS/2 support you need is usually a joke of the
biggest kind.

InnoVal and AFST are doing this because they believe
OS/2 users are a better equipped and a more knowledgeable
group of Internet users.  We all know the most significant
costs for a nationwide ISP are marketing and technical
support.  OS/2 users are an active easier-to-reach online
community, we understand quickly, and we readily share
the knowledge with each other through various web sites
newsgroups, and other public forums.

Again, InnoVal is to be applauded for stepping forward
to once again, bring a service or product to the OS/2
community that is being ignored by other OS/2 vendors
or former OS/2 vendors.  JSM (now PolarBar) is still - to
this day - the best Java Emailer on the market and it is
being updated with new features and other good things
by the Paul vanKeep group of Java programmers.  Without
InnoVal JSM and PolarBar would be dead in the water.

OS/2 users need to support OS/2 users, vendors and
other commercial enterprises that cater to OS/2.  For
an OS/2 user to step forward in the public realm and
whine their heads off at such entrepreneurial leadership
is ridiculous.  More importantly, it is the best way to kill
off other OS/2 incentives.

Take advantage of the offer extended by and for OS/2
users by Innoval and AFST by signing up as a preferred
OS/2 user with their new ISP for OS/2 users.

Tim Martin
The OS/2 Guy
Warp City (http://warpcity.com)



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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: OS2Guy@WarpCity.com                               11-Dec-99 10:06:15
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 16:33:28
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com>

hunters@sapphire.indstate.edu wrote:

> In article <3851A98F.459420AF@WarpCity.com>,
>   OS2Guy@WarpCity.com wrote:
>
> > Here's some hot news for all you NON-Warp City Members:
>
> Look, don't bother doing us any "favors"...

Unless it feeds your OS/2 pocket directly, right Steve?
You know like where to find that elusive OS/2 fix or
OS/2 great deal?

If I provide information or news you want then you can't
applaud me enough but if it isn't something to you like
to hear then you want to kill the messenger.

It is too bad you miss all the other good news and
information Warp City offers its members.

Tim Martin
The OS/2 Guy
Warp City (http://warpcity.com)


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From: OS2Guy@WarpCity.com                               11-Dec-99 10:01:13
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 16:33:29
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com>

Bob Eager wrote:

> On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 07:45:35, andrew@netneurotic.de (Andrew J. Brehm)
> wrote:
>
> > Why? What's wrong with Innoval?
>
> This is the company that quietly dropped support for, first, their
> newsreader, then (not so quietly) BOTH their OS/2 mail clients.
> Leaving loyal users out in the cold.
>

Leaving loyal users out in the cold?  Lessee - did they withdraw
PostRoad Mailer from you the way the developer of CUSeeme/2
did?  Did they lie to you to get you to buy their product then run
off into the night the way SPG did?

No InnoVal did not.  To this day they provide free distribution of
the Post Road Mailer (try that with CUSeeMe/2) and have encouraged
others to continue development of the J Street Mailer. Which is exactly
what is happening.  Paul vanKeep and his band of merry OS/2 Java
developers have continued development of the former JSM (now
PolarBar) Java emailer and will continue to do so.  Had InnoVal
pulled that product and forbid anyone from touching it there would
be no PolarBar or further development today.

InnoVal is to be applauded for their continued devotion to
OS/2, the OS/2 user and the OS/2 community at large.

You want to kill off OS/2?  Take a look at what you are
personally doing to help do that today.

Tim Martin
The OS/2 Guy
Warp City (http://warpcity.com)



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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: isaacl@sonics.ece.ubc.ca                          11-Dec-99 19:22:11
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 19:49:08
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: isaacl@sonics.ece.ubc.ca (e-frog)

Bob Eager (rde@tavi.co.uk) wrote:
: On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 07:45:35, andrew@netneurotic.de (Andrew J. Brehm) 
: wrote:

: > Why? What's wrong with Innoval?

: This is the company that quietly dropped support for, first, their 
: newsreader, then (not so quietly) BOTH their OS/2 mail clients. 
: Leaving loyal users out in the cold.

I would disagree with this point of view.
I mean first, when they decided to go Java, they let Post Road Mailer out
for free. For everyone. That was nice.

And then when they found that they couldn't pay their bills, they gave
PLENTY of advanced warning that they would have to do some sort of major
switch of business focus. 
JStreet mailer was nice, but since they didn't seem to plan on going on
with it, it has been left to someone else to maintain, unofficially, and
as far as I know it is available to everyone for FREE.

That's about as classy an exit as you can get. You mean, you
would actually want a quiet exit? Leave you hanging with no
notice? (TrueSpectra was also very nice about it, but I wish they'd given
more warning). I surely hope you are not comparing Innoval's exit with,
say SPG, or CUSeeMe/2 or maybe even DeScribe!

It's too bad about Innoval. I wish them luck, and if our paths should ever
cross in the future, I'll remember the nice things they did.



Isaac

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From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               11-Dec-99 17:45:26
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 19:49:08
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Tim Martin wrote:
> [more spam]

Don't you think once was enough to post your spam?  Why not confine it to
appropriate newsgroups?

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               11-Dec-99 17:49:28
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 19:49:08
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Tim Martin wrote:
> 
> It is too bad you miss all the other good news and
> information Warp City offers its members.

It is too bad your spam continues to infest these newsgroups.

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From: rde@tavi.co.uk                                    11-Dec-99 23:47:23
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 21:20:14
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: rde@tavi.co.uk (Bob Eager)

On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 18:01:26, Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com> wrote:

> InnoVal is to be applauded for their continued devotion to
> OS/2, the OS/2 user and the OS/2 community at large.
> 
> You want to kill off OS/2?  Take a look at what you are
> personally doing to help do that today.

Here we go again. Go away Tim.

-- 
Bob Eager
rde at tavi.co.uk
PC Server 325; PS/2s 8595*3, 9595*3 (2*P60 + P90), 8535, 8570, 9556*2,
8580*6,
8557*2, 8550, 9577, 8530, P70, PC/AT..

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From: rde@tavi.co.uk                                    11-Dec-99 23:48:22
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 21:20:14
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: rde@tavi.co.uk (Bob Eager)

On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 19:22:23, isaacl@sonics.ece.ubc.ca (e-frog) wrote:

> That's about as classy an exit as you can get. You mean, you
> would actually want a quiet exit? Leave you hanging with no
> notice?

That's what happened with their newsreader.

-- 
Bob Eager
rde at tavi.co.uk
PC Server 325; PS/2s 8595*3, 9595*3 (2*P60 + P90), 8535, 8570, 9556*2,
8580*6,
8557*2, 8550, 9577, 8530, P70, PC/AT..

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From: dboultr@spamfree.erols.com                        12-Dec-99 00:49:05
  To: All                                               11-Dec-99 21:20:14
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: dboultr@spamfree.erols.com

On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 23:48:45, rde@tavi.co.uk (Bob Eager) wrote:

> That's what happened with their newsreader.

Geez, Bob!  What's this all about??  They knew their newsreader was a 
piece of crap, pretty much beyond saving.  There were at the time, and
have been subsequently, a ton of newsreader choices for OS/2 users.  
We didn't loose anything when they gave up that market.

I haven't looked at MR2/ICE 2.0 yet, but PostRoad Mailer is still 
arguably the best mail reader we have.  I paid for it once, long long 
ago, and I've gotten two major releases for free.  I still use PRM and
am happy with it.  I'm pretty sure I got the newsreader for free too. 

I'll agree with Dan that his customer support for individual users 
wasn't the greatest, but I don't recall having occasion to use it 
since 2.0 came out.  On the other hand, Dan and Innoval tried to do 
good things for OS/2 and several of the results are first class.  
NetExtra was a fine product for its time.  But ultimately, when fine 
products don't pay the bills, you have to do what you have to do.

Innoval doesn't make my OS/2 Hall of Shame.  I wish them well, and 
would buy their software again should the occasion arise.

Doug Boulter

To reply by e-mail, remove the obvious spam traps from the address

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From: rde@tavi.co.uk                                    12-Dec-99 01:58:03
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 02:24:02
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: rde@tavi.co.uk (Bob Eager)

On Sun, 12 Dec 1999 00:49:11, dboultr@spamfree.erols.com wrote:

> > That's what happened with their newsreader.
> 
> Geez, Bob!  What's this all about??  They knew their newsreader was a 
> piece of crap, pretty much beyond saving.  There were at the time, and
> have been subsequently, a ton of newsreader choices for OS/2 users.  
> We didn't loose anything when they gave up that market.

I quite agree. But I was just answering the point made. I used it. I 
stopped using it when I got no reply to my support requests. It wasn't
good and they were right to drop it. But I NEVER (as this was my 
point) received anything to say they were doing it....as I say, it WAS
done quietly. And I paid full price for it. No regrets...I had some 
use out of it.

As far as the mailers go....I made the original post because someone 
asked why someone else was hostile about Innoval. I put forward a 
reason.

I like Post Road Mailer. I bought 2.0. I bought the upgrade to 2.5. I 
bought the upgrade to 3.0. I heard about enough early bugs in JSM to 
stop me upgrading to that. And problems with Java at the time, to be 
fair.

The problem for me wa support. In the early days I got a good response
and even a feature I wanted, in some form. But I reported a bug early 
in the life of 2.5 (a violation of SMTP and POP3, both). I never even 
got a response. It was never fixed. Not polite. Even an email saying 
they hadn't the resources would have been OK. I really appreciate 
their problems.

I bought NetExtra too. And the upgrades. All of them. Despite the 
silly name of WWWatch (does it have the same connotations in the US?).
I couldn't have supported Innoval more, without a charitable donation!

I think it's a shame the product line died. I have their products on 
my website to keep them alive. Amd a workround I did for the protocol 
bugs. I only wish they could have given Paul van Keep the source to 
JSM, to save him time.

-- 
Bob Eager
rde at tavi.co.uk
PC Server 325; PS/2s 8595*3, 9595*3 (2*P60 + P90), 8535, 8570, 9556*2,
8580*6,
8557*2, 8550, 9577, 8530, P70, PC/AT..

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: hunters@sapphire.indstate.edu                     12-Dec-99 04:28:08
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 02:24:03
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: hunters@sapphire.indstate.edu

In article <385292A6.B3969AE6@WarpCity.com>,
  OS2Guy@WarpCity.com wrote:

> Unless it feeds your OS/2 pocket directly, right Steve?
> You know like where to find that elusive OS/2 fix or
> OS/2 great deal?

LOL! I certainly don't need *you* for that! I used OS/2 for 3 years
before ever reading a single newsgroup...

> If I provide information or news you want then you can't
> applaud me enough but if it isn't something to you like
> to hear then you want to kill the messenger.

Hardly... Since your memory is faulty, I'll have to remind you that
I've rarely responded positively to any of your posts...

> It is too bad you miss all the other good news and
> information Warp City offers its members.

And this is precisely why I say not to do us any "favors". You aren't
here to help OS/2 users, you're just fishing for compliments.

And if this isn't true, then the post to which I am replying would
never had been made.

--
-Steven Hunter                *OS/2 Warp 4 * |But on the other hand...|
hunters@sapphire.indstate.edu *AMD K6-2 400* |There's 5 more fingers. |


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

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From: leea@psynet.net                                   11-Dec-99 20:58:27
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 02:24:03
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: Lee Aroner  <leea@psynet.net>

Dan:

Appreciate the effort. However, when I called to size up the 
offer I found the following:

(1) As you said, sounds like windows support, and rather naive 
at that. What the hey, I don't need or want support anyways.

(2) The TS with the teenage sounding voice that answered 
didn't have any idea what their servers run on. I prefer Nix 
of some sort, Linux is fine, but I need to know. I won't 
support an ISP that runs NT.

(3) The TS also didn't know who their backbone supplier was, 
but after a couple minutes checking, figured out it was UUNet. 
That part's fine.

(4) The TS did not have, or pretended not to know what the 800 
number was. If I can't test for connection speed, I'm not 
interested in signing up. I get 49333 connects every time 
where I'm at now, and I won't switch to an unknown without 
some random test connects.

If you do want to make some money off this deal, get them to 
give out the 800 number for connects, and find out what they 
serve mail and pages from. Gotta know those two...

LRA

------------------------
  From: innoval@ibm.net
  Subject: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!
  Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 16:35:30 GMT 
  To: "comp.os.os2.advocacy" 
<@news:comp.os.os2.advocacy@192.168.16.2>, "comp.os.os2.apps" 
<@news:comp.os.os2.apps@192.168.16.2>, "comp.os.os2.comm" 
<@news:comp.os.os2.comm@192.168.16.2>, 
"comp.os.os2.marketplace" 
<@news:comp.os.os2.marketplace@192.168.16.2>


> In article <zterrarrkvfarg.fmk8te0.pminews@news.exis.net>,
>   "Michael K Greene" <mgreene@hotbot.com> wrote:
> > On Fri, 10 Dec 1999 17:32:00 -0800, Tim Martin wrote:
> > Any other company would get a "great!!!", but let's look 
at who you
> > are talking about - Innoval????
> 
> Okay. Let's get some facts straight before this goes to far 
off topic.
> 
> AFST is actually offering ISP800 to OS/2 users, not InnoVal. Read the
> details and the FAQ at isp800.com/os2/. I, Dan Porter, sought and
> engineered the deal for OS/2 users. Anyone else (any supporter and user
> of OS/2 like myself) could have done it just as easily. InnoVal may have
> withdrawn from the OS/2 software market, but InnoVal still has OS/2
> users and supporters, and the company does recognize that OS/2 users
> WERE important to us and ARE important to us.
> 
> I, personally, and InnoVal, have a vested interest in AFST. When AFST
> closes a big multi-user deal (and they have closed some very big deals)
> I and InnoVal earn something for our efforts. I would be surprised if
> OS/2 users as a group (oh, I wish it could be so) will be a big enough
> deal to earn us anything -- certainly not at the prices being offered to
> OS/2 users. It was just something that I wanted to do.
> 
> I've seen what AFST brings to the table with 65 tech support people (all
> trained unfortunately in Windows stuff), 800 re-routed access, high
> bandwidth, high capacity email, etc. It's a good deal, even if you don't
> like InnoVal. All InnoVal did was try to bring you a good price when
> AFST launches public consumer service under the ISP800 brand.
> 
> I was the one who pulled the plug on InnoVal's direct involvement with
> OS/2 software. It was a financial thing that investors get concerned
> about. Add to that, that as a company, we were not good enough with
> support in the consumer marketplace. I thought we could be, but I was
> mistaken. The market wasn't there anymore. So blame me. Not InnoVal.
> 
> InnoVal, BTW, is lobbying for OS/2 solutions, support, etc. with AFST
> and its business partners and vendors. We are not doing so because we
> are emotionally attached to OS/2 but because, in some areas, it makes
> good business sense.
> 
> ISP800 makes good business sense. I feel good that we (all of us who
> want to be a part of this) are, in a small way, involving two new
> vendors (AFST and National Dialup) in the OS/2 world.
> 
> Dan Porter, President
> InnoVal Systems Solutions, Inc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
> 

---------------End of Original Message-----------------

--------------------------------------------------------
Name: Lee Aroner
E-mail: Lee Aroner <leea@nospm.psynet.net>

(Please remove "nospm." to reply...)

Date: 12/11/1999
Time: 20:58:54

 _,_ /|
 \`o.O' ACK!
 =(___)=
    U

--------------------------------------------------------

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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(1:109/42)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: wsonna@ibm.net                                    12-Dec-99 14:10:00
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 14:24:12
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: wsonna@ibm.net (William Sonna)

On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 09:17:20, rde@tavi.co.uk (Bob Eager) wrote:

> On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 07:45:35, andrew@netneurotic.de (Andrew J. Brehm) 
> wrote:
> 
> > Why? What's wrong with Innoval?
> 
> This is the company that quietly dropped support for, first, their 
> newsreader, then (not so quietly) BOTH their OS/2 mail clients. 
> Leaving loyal users out in the cold.
> 

Would you prefer the jerk with the fourty thousand lines of code he'd 
rather throw away and he did because its his not yours so fuck you 
routine?  That is usually what happens when software companies leave 
markets.

Innoval, in contrast, was exemplary in the manner in which they left 
the OS/2 maketplace.

Consequently, there is still a great deal of good will towards them; 
and they remain highly respected.


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: donnelly@tampabay.rr.com                          12-Dec-99 14:29:28
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 14:24:12
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: donnelly@tampabay.rr.com (Buddy Donnelly)

On Sun, 12 Dec 1999 04:28:17, hunters@sapphire.indstate.edu wrote:

> In article <385292A6.B3969AE6@WarpCity.com>,
>   OS2Guy@WarpCity.com wrote:
> 
> > Unless it feeds your OS/2 pocket directly, right Steve?
> > You know like where to find that elusive OS/2 fix or
> > OS/2 great deal?
> 
> LOL! I certainly don't need *you* for that! I used OS/2 for 3 years
> before ever reading a single newsgroup...

Responding, not to carry water for Warp City (and I should add, I've 
been to both Kathmandu and Ice Station 9 in the same day as often as 
I've been to Warp City) but just to point out:

There are 2 ways to use newsgroups. 

One way is to "read" them, presumably gleaning info for your own 
personal use. 

The other way is to read them to offer help with things you've become 
experienced at handling.

Tim Martin, of course, has a long history of generously offering help 
here, and (back when I wasn't filtering his own posts because he gets 
into long-running and useless arguments with kneejerk detractors) saw 
that his help was quite timely, accurate, and thoughtfully offered.

Though I never met the cat, never spoke in fact with anyone who has 
actually met him, I would still be willing to bet that he couldn't 
"use OS/2 for 3 years" and stay quiet without trying to offer help to 
others. It's a character flaw I can live with, especially when 
compared to the rampant self-proud selfishness that an increasingly 
WWF world is trying to justify.


-- 

Good luck,

Buddy

Buddy Donnelly
donnelly@tampabay.rr.com


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: innoval@ibm.net                                   12-Dec-99 15:10:28
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 14:24:13
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: innoval@ibm.net

Lee, you make some good points.

Let me address servers first. All ISP800 mail servers are Linux. Some
webhosting is Linux and some is other Unix variants. I think one site
is AIX. There are no NT servers anywhere in the ISP800 system. Let me
stree that, NO NT SERVERS. See FAQ at http://isp800/os2/

Sure, it sounds like Windows support when you call tech support. I wish
it weren't so but that is what AFST's market looks like. But AFST is
willing to give OS/2 users a go. When I suggested the OS/2 deal to
AFST, it was received with enthusiasm. I talked to two "lead" tech
support people who were thrilled about the prospects of OS/2 users and
recognize that OS/2, though a slim market share, comprises an
important, talented, and savvy group.

As for naive, I don't know who you talked to. There are about 55 TS
folks if memory serves me right. Questions: Did you get through
quickly? Did tech support try to be helpful? Was attitude good?

As for TS not knowing the 800 number, the ISP800 brand name goes online
to the general public, and in particular OS/2 users, Jan 3. Under
various other brand names, already in operation for a long time, often
with different callin numbers and different support criteria, (and
different access numbers), I don't think you would have encountered
this situation. I don't know for sure. I'll pass on your comment to
AFST. Here it is. Try it. I'm getting 50666 right now:

   888-488-4418

I'll suggest that AFST put the number on the pre-reg pages. I know it
is on the regular pages for the 1/3/2000 launch. Remember, this was a
hurry up set of web pages to give OS/2 users an extra-special deal.

Remember, ISP800, is functionally designed for corporate accounts where
performance, availability, wide-spread access, and reliability are key.
I just think OS/2 users are a good fit. I think we got a good deal from
AFST.

Dan



In article <Chameleon.991211210441.leea@FRED>,
  Lee Aroner  <leea@psynet.net> wrote:
> Dan:
>
> Appreciate the effort. However, when I called to size up the
> offer I found the following:
>
> (1) As you said, sounds like windows support, and rather naive
> at that. What the hey, I don't need or want support anyways.
>
> (2) The TS with the teenage sounding voice that answered
> didn't have any idea what their servers run on. I prefer Nix
> of some sort, Linux is fine, but I need to know. I won't
> support an ISP that runs NT.
>
> (3) The TS also didn't know who their backbone supplier was,
> but after a couple minutes checking, figured out it was UUNet.
> That part's fine.
>
> (4) The TS did not have, or pretended not to know what the 800
> number was. If I can't test for connection speed, I'm not
> interested in signing up. I get 49333 connects every time
> where I'm at now, and I won't switch to an unknown without
> some random test connects.
>
> If you do want to make some money off this deal, get them to
> give out the 800 number for connects, and find out what they
> serve mail and pages from. Gotta know those two...
>
> LRA
>
> ------------------------
>   From: innoval@ibm.net
>   Subject: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!
>   Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 16:35:30 GMT
>   To: "comp.os.os2.advocacy"
> <@news:comp.os.os2.advocacy@192.168.16.2>, "comp.os.os2.apps"
> <@news:comp.os.os2.apps@192.168.16.2>, "comp.os.os2.comm"
> <@news:comp.os.os2.comm@192.168.16.2>,
> "comp.os.os2.marketplace"
> <@news:comp.os.os2.marketplace@192.168.16.2>
>
> > In article <zterrarrkvfarg.fmk8te0.pminews@news.exis.net>,
> >   "Michael K Greene" <mgreene@hotbot.com> wrote:
> > > On Fri, 10 Dec 1999 17:32:00 -0800, Tim Martin wrote:
> > > Any other company would get a "great!!!", but let's look
> at who you
> > > are talking about - Innoval????
> >
> > Okay. Let's get some facts straight before this goes to far
> off topic.
> >
> > AFST is actually offering ISP800 to OS/2 users, not InnoVal. Read
the
> > details and the FAQ at isp800.com/os2/. I, Dan Porter, sought and
> > engineered the deal for OS/2 users. Anyone else (any supporter and
user
> > of OS/2 like myself) could have done it just as easily. InnoVal may
have
> > withdrawn from the OS/2 software market, but InnoVal still has OS/2
> > users and supporters, and the company does recognize that OS/2 users
> > WERE important to us and ARE important to us.
> >
> > I, personally, and InnoVal, have a vested interest in AFST. When
AFST
> > closes a big multi-user deal (and they have closed some very big
deals)
> > I and InnoVal earn something for our efforts. I would be surprised
if
> > OS/2 users as a group (oh, I wish it could be so) will be a big
enough
> > deal to earn us anything -- certainly not at the prices being
offered to
> > OS/2 users. It was just something that I wanted to do.
> >
> > I've seen what AFST brings to the table with 65 tech support people
(all
> > trained unfortunately in Windows stuff), 800 re-routed access, high
> > bandwidth, high capacity email, etc. It's a good deal, even if you
don't
> > like InnoVal. All InnoVal did was try to bring you a good price when
> > AFST launches public consumer service under the ISP800 brand.
> >
> > I was the one who pulled the plug on InnoVal's direct involvement
with
> > OS/2 software. It was a financial thing that investors get concerned
> > about. Add to that, that as a company, we were not good enough with
> > support in the consumer marketplace. I thought we could be, but I
was
> > mistaken. The market wasn't there anymore. So blame me. Not InnoVal.
> >
> > InnoVal, BTW, is lobbying for OS/2 solutions, support, etc. with
AFST
> > and its business partners and vendors. We are not doing so because
we
> > are emotionally attached to OS/2 but because, in some areas, it
makes
> > good business sense.
> >
> > ISP800 makes good business sense. I feel good that we (all of us who
> > want to be a part of this) are, in a small way, involving two new
> > vendors (AFST and National Dialup) in the OS/2 world.
> >
> > Dan Porter, President
> > InnoVal Systems Solutions, Inc.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > Before you buy.
> >
>
> ---------------End of Original Message-----------------
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> Name: Lee Aroner
> E-mail: Lee Aroner <leea@nospm.psynet.net>
>
> (Please remove "nospm." to reply...)
>
> Date: 12/11/1999
> Time: 20:58:54
>
>  _,_ /|
>  \`o.O' ACK!
>  =(___)=
>     U
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
>
>


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: aboritz@cybernex.net                              12-Dec-99 10:09:02
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 14:24:13
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: aboritz@cybernex.net (Alan Boritz)

In article <38528F0F.D987D612@WarpCity.com>, Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com>
wrote:
>williamd wrote:
>
>> This sounds *great*; thanks for posting the info! Here's hoping they
>> choose an appropriate domain name- like os2online or something!!
>>
>> Bill
>> __
>> williamd1@attglobal.net
>
>Thanks Bill.  InnoVal actually engineered the low-cost
>deal for OS/2 users in partnership with AFST (Advanced
>Family Safe Technologies, Inc) and it is a great deal for
>OS/2 users.
>
>Get in now and it is only $12 a month for an entire year
>with  56k connections, <smooch, smooch> 100% dialup access either locally
>or through an 800 number <slurp> (and that includes Hawaii, Alaska
>and Puerto Rico), 24 hours a day, 7 days a week access.
>Go to any other vendor and ask for a discount because
>you use OS/2 and they ignore you. <swallow>...

Ok, Tim, take your sloppy spam, get off your knees, and get out of here.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: aboritz@cybernex.net                              12-Dec-99 09:04:29
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 14:24:13
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: aboritz@cybernex.net (Alan Boritz)

In article <38529175.49EDE961@WarpCity.com>, Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com>
wrote:
>Bob Eager wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 07:45:35, andrew@netneurotic.de (Andrew J. Brehm)
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Why? What's wrong with Innoval?
>>
>> This is the company that quietly dropped support for, first, their
>> newsreader, then (not so quietly) BOTH their OS/2 mail clients.
>> Leaving loyal users out in the cold.
>>
>
>Leaving loyal users out in the cold?  Lessee - did they withdraw
>PostRoad Mailer from you the way the developer of CUSeeme/2
>did?

Yes, with Postroad News before that.

>Did they lie to you to get you to buy their product then run
>off into the night the way SPG did?

Yes.

>No InnoVal did not.  To this day they provide free distribution of
>the Post Road Mailer...

They provide NOTHING.  The rest of us are moving the distribution archives
around.  Innoval's support web site has been dead (literally) for years now.

>...(try that with CUSeeMe/2) and have encouraged
>others to continue development of the J Street Mailer.

So they dumped the source and said it's now a do-it-yourself product.  What's
the big deal?

>InnoVal is to be applauded for their continued devotion to
>OS/2, the OS/2 user and the OS/2 community at large.

Wipe your chin, take your kneepads, and get out of here, Timmy.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: aboritz@cybernex.net                              12-Dec-99 09:42:09
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 14:24:13
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: aboritz@cybernex.net (Alan Boritz)

In article <82tugi$rlo$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, innoval@ibm.net wrote:
>In article <zterrarrkvfarg.fmk8te0.pminews@news.exis.net>,
>  "Michael K Greene" <mgreene@hotbot.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 10 Dec 1999 17:32:00 -0800, Tim Martin wrote:
>> Any other company would get a "great!!!", but let's look at who you
>> are talking about - Innoval????
>
>Okay. Let's get some facts straight before this goes to far off topic.

Fine.  Try answering these questions:

How many Postroad News licenses did you sell after announcing that you
discontinued support for the product?

How many years prior to pulling the plug did you stop answering tech support
email?

How many Postroad Mail licenses did you sell after discontinuing support for
the product?

How many Postroad Mail licenses did you sell that qualified for the free
Spellguard add-in, but didn't ship with it?

>AFST is actually offering ISP800 to OS/2 users, not InnoVal. Read the
>details and the FAQ at isp800.com/os2/. I, Dan Porter, sought and
>engineered the deal for OS/2 users.

Oh, is that why you were too busy to clear the messages sitting in your email
account at ibm.net?

>InnoVal may have
>withdrawn from the OS/2 software market, but InnoVal still has OS/2
>users and supporters, and the company does recognize that OS/2 users
>WERE important to us and ARE important to us.

If they're so important, why did you ignore them for so long?

>I, personally, and InnoVal, have a vested interest in AFST. When AFST
>closes a big multi-user deal (and they have closed some very big deals)
>I and InnoVal earn something for our efforts. I would be surprised if
>OS/2 users as a group (oh, I wish it could be so) will be a big enough
>deal to earn us anything -- certainly not at the prices being offered to
>OS/2 users. It was just something that I wanted to do.

That's great, but what did you do for everone who bought your products and
didn't get the value for which they paid?

>I was the one who pulled the plug on InnoVal's direct involvement with
>OS/2 software. It was a financial thing that investors get concerned
>about. Add to that, that as a company, we were not good enough with
>support in the consumer marketplace. I thought we could be, but I was
>mistaken. The market wasn't there anymore. So blame me. Not InnoVal.

Fine.  You pissed off a LOT of people BEFORE you announced you were pulling
the plug and quite a few are not running OS/2 any longer.  Every time this
issue comes up in a discussion thread while you are personally participating,
Dan, you ALWAYS disappear, so I expect you won't disappoint us again.

>InnoVal, BTW, is lobbying for OS/2 solutions, support, etc. with AFST
>and its business partners and vendors. We are not doing so because we
>are emotionally attached to OS/2 but because, in some areas, it makes
>good business sense.

That is, until you decide to blow us off again, stop answering email, and the
cycle begins again until AFST tosses you off that project, too.

>Dan Porter, President
>InnoVal Systems Solutions, Inc.
>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

What happened, Dan, lost your ibm.net news access?

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: aboritz@cybernex.net                              12-Dec-99 09:11:13
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 14:24:13
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: aboritz@cybernex.net (Alan Boritz)

In article <82u89f$m08$1@nntp.itservices.ubc.ca>, isaacl@sonics.ece.ubc.ca
(e-frog) wrote:
>Bob Eager (rde@tavi.co.uk) wrote:
>: On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 07:45:35, andrew@netneurotic.de (Andrew J. Brehm)
>: wrote:
>
>: > Why? What's wrong with Innoval?
>
>: This is the company that quietly dropped support for, first, their
>: newsreader, then (not so quietly) BOTH their OS/2 mail clients.
>: Leaving loyal users out in the cold.
>
>I would disagree with this point of view.
>I mean first, when they decided to go Java, they let Post Road Mailer out
>for free. For everyone. That was nice.

No it wasn't.  It was a marketing move to try to get people to play with their
product in a less functional mode to entice them to buy the "full" version.
It's a common method to increase sales.  There was nothing "nice" about it,
since by that time they had already stopped supporting most of the customers
who paid full price.

>And then when they found that they couldn't pay their bills, they gave
>PLENTY of advanced warning that they would have to do some sort of major
>switch of business focus.
>JStreet mailer was nice, but since they didn't seem to plan on going on
>with it, it has been left to someone else to maintain, unofficially, and
>as far as I know it is available to everyone for FREE.

No, they didn't give "plenty" of advance warning, unless if you include the
bounced emails to "tech support."

>That's about as classy an exit as you can get.

Not hardly.  Accepting payments for Postroad News and Mail licenses AFTER they
had discontinued support is as far from classy as you can get.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: aboritz@cybernex.net                              12-Dec-99 09:20:01
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 14:24:13
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: aboritz@cybernex.net (Alan Boritz)

In article
<sXnyXDNIUu65-pn2-bIZk5nYBQJxh@207-172-184-121.s121.tnt6.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.co
m>, dboultr@spamfree.erols.com wrote:
>On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 23:48:45, rde@tavi.co.uk (Bob Eager) wrote:
>
>> That's what happened with their newsreader.
>
>Geez, Bob!  What's this all about??  They knew their newsreader was a
>piece of crap, pretty much beyond saving.

I'm sure that could be true, but what all the people who bought it with the
understanding that they weren't buying a dead-end product with absolutely no
support?

>There were at the time, and
>have been subsequently, a ton of newsreader choices for OS/2 users.
>We didn't loose anything when they gave up that market.

No, Doug, "a ton" there isn't, not hardly.  Depending upon your choice of
delivery, the choice is certainly less than 5.  The choice of NNTP (and mail)
clients with active support (now) is now down to 1.

>I haven't looked at MR2/ICE 2.0 yet, but PostRoad Mailer is still
>arguably the best mail reader we have.  I paid for it once, long long
>ago, and I've gotten two major releases for free.

Innoval's last two major releases were v2.00 and v3.00.  Are you trying to
tell us that you were given a free upgrade to v2.00 and then again to v3.00,
while the rest of the world had to pay?

>I still use PRM and am happy with it.

You appear to be a very undemanding user.

>I'm pretty sure I got the newsreader for free too.

Only if you got your registration key in a warez newsgroup, I'm afraid.  The
rest of us paid for it, and received no support assistance when it wouldn't
work.  Innoval never released a free registration code for that product.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: innoval@ibm.net                                   12-Dec-99 16:02:28
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 14:24:13
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: innoval@ibm.net

Bob, we didn't do everything right. I know that. We learned. We failed
at the OS/2 market. Partly it was the market and partly it was blunders
on our part. But I don't feel completely bad about our efforts:

When it comes to mailers, OS/2 is fortunate to have an excellent choice
of excellent mailers. Our, Post Road Mailer, is one of them. Some
people prefer one, others another. That's great. We got our fair share.
I'm still very proud of the Post Road Mailer.

I'm now super-pleased with the opportunity to bring two new established
vendors into the OS/2 camp: AFST and National Dialup Service. I would
like to see us support them. I think they bring a good deal to the
table for OS/2 users.

Bob, you could have brought this deal to the table just as easily as I
did. I just had the good fortune of working with these companies. AFST
and NDS were very receptive to a good proposal. I'd hate to see this
opportunity fail because InnoVal failed in the OS/2 software market.
That just doesn't make sense to me. Go read the site at
http://isp800.com/os2/ Check out the FAQ.

For full disclosure, you should know that I have a vested interest in
AFST. I'm an investor. I'll lobby for OS/2 users. What I'd like to see
is our community of users "speak" to AFST and NDS with a common voice.
I'm not saying buy the service unless it is right for you. But I am
saying, given the right positive voice this good be mutually beneficial
(win/win).

Bob, I AM sorry we let you down. But I'm not sorry for trying then and
now.

Dan Porter, OS User

In article <176uZD2KcidF-pn2-xSISHdQ1GPId@man-169.dialup.zetnet.co.uk>,
  rde@tavi.co.uk (Bob Eager) wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 07:45:35, andrew@netneurotic.de (Andrew J. Brehm)
> wrote:
>
> > Why? What's wrong with Innoval?
>
> This is the company that quietly dropped support for, first, their
> newsreader, then (not so quietly) BOTH their OS/2 mail clients.
> Leaving loyal users out in the cold.
>
> --
> Bob Eager
> rde at tavi.co.uk
> PC Server 325; PS/2s 8595*3, 9595*3 (2*P60 + P90), 8535, 8570, 9556*2,
> 8580*6,
> 8557*2, 8550, 9577, 8530, P70, PC/AT..
>


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: rsstan@ibm.net                                    12-Dec-99 12:19:26
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 16:45:15
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: "Bob Stan" <rsstan@ibm.net>

On Sun, 12 Dec 1999 15:10:57 GMT, innoval@ibm.net wrote:

>Let me address servers first. All ISP800 mail servers are Linux. Some
>webhosting is Linux and some is other Unix variants. I think one site
>is AIX. There are no NT servers anywhere in the ISP800 system. Let me
>stree that, NO NT SERVERS. 
Thanks for the info.  What exactly does no USENET access mean?  Does that
mean I could not access this newsgroup directly, but would have to go through
Dejanews?


--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: fwkirk@attglobal.net                              12-Dec-99 17:22:12
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 16:45:15
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: fwkirk@attglobal.net (Frank Kirk)

On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 01:32:00, Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com> wrote:

> Here's some hot news for all you NON-Warp City Members:
 
> FST Inc, has joined in a business partnership arrangement
> with National DialUp Services and InnoVal Systems Solutions,
> to provide a low-cost nationwide ISP service for OS/2 users.
> ISP800, a private brand ISP for corporate customers, is
> inaugurating service for consumers on January 3,  2000.

Tim,

	That's some of the best news I've heard in a while.  Thanks for 
posting it.

FWK

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: jglatt@spamgone-borg.com                          12-Dec-99 18:36:07
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 16:45:15
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: jglatt@spamgone-borg.com (Jeff Glatt)

>William Sonna
>Innoval, in contrast, was exemplary in the manner in which they left 
>the OS/2 maketplace.

What's so exemplary about leaving the OS/2 marketplace? Virtually all
commercial OS/2 developers have done so by now, and I have no doubt
that countless other developers have done so too. Hell, a great number
of endusers have done so too. It's not like leaving behind OS/2 is
uncommon. Just ask IBM and they'll tell you (in a leaked memo,
probably)

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: OS2Guy@WarpCity.com                               12-Dec-99 12:37:04
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 19:56:10
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com>

Alan Boritz wrote:

> Wipe your chin, take your kneepads, and get out of here, Timmy.

Statements such as this confirm to all the
whining ass/fool you continually demonstrate
yourself to be.

Tim Martin
The OS/2 Guy
Warp City
http://warpcity.com

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               12-Dec-99 16:05:23
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 19:56:10
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Tim Martin wrote:
> 
> Alan Boritz wrote:
> 
> > Wipe your chin, take your kneepads, and get out of here, Timmy.
> 
> Statements such as this confirm to all the
> whining ass/fool you continually demonstrate
> yourself to be.

Statements such as this confirm to all the whining ass/fool you continually
demonstrate yourself to be.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: OS2Guy@WarpCity.com                               12-Dec-99 14:32:18
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 19:56:11
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com>

Marty wrote:

> Tim Martin wrote:
> >
> > Alan Boritz wrote:
> >
> > > Wipe your chin, take your kneepads, and get out of here, Timmy.
> >
> > Statements such as this confirm to all the
> > whining ass/fool you continually demonstrate
> > yourself to be.
>
> Statements such as this confirm to all the whining ass/fool you continually
> demonstrate yourself to be.

Not gonna play this game Marty.  Your personal desire
to start flame wars with those you have a personal
hatred for are simply not worth the time of day.

Tim Martin
The OS/2 Guy
Warp City (http://warpcity.com)
"We Close The Y2K Discount Door For '99 Members 12/15"


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               12-Dec-99 18:12:28
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 19:56:11
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Tim Martin wrote:
> 
> Marty wrote:
> 
> > Tim Martin wrote:
> > >
> > > Alan Boritz wrote:
> > >
> > > > Wipe your chin, take your kneepads, and get out of here, Timmy.
> > >
> > > Statements such as this confirm to all the
> > > whining ass/fool you continually demonstrate
> > > yourself to be.
> >
> > Statements such as this confirm to all the whining ass/fool you
continually
> > demonstrate yourself to be.
> 
> Not gonna play this game Marty.

You already have been, Tim.  The above is evidence of this.

> Your personal desire to start flame wars with those you have a personal
> hatred for are simply not worth the time of day.

I don't hate you Tim.  In fact, I kinda like you.  Your antics have been quite
amusing over the years.  As far as starting flame wars, that was not my
intention.  Rather, I intended to point out the irony of your statement.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: aboritz@cybernex.net                              12-Dec-99 15:40:24
  To: All                                               12-Dec-99 21:19:04
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: aboritz@cybernex.net (Alan Boritz)

In article <830gvf$hjj$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, innoval@ibm.net wrote:
>Bob, we didn't do everything right. I know that. We learned.

No you didn't.

>We failed
>at the OS/2 market. Partly it was the market and partly it was blunders
>on our part.

No, it was mostly blunders on YOUR part.  The market was always there, but you
refused to believe that the customers you screwed would talk to other
potential customers and possibly spread news that your support sucked, and
your employees were poorly managed.  What I particularly find amazing is the
number of times you publicly state this, while introducing something else to
separate OS/2 users from their cash.  Maybe YOU can try to rewrite history,
but not everyone's going to buy your line of bullshit.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: bowenjm@rintintin.colorado.edu                    13-Dec-99 02:50:17
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 03:31:19
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: bowenjm@rintintin.colorado.edu (Jason Bowen)

You proved yourself as a liar a long time ago so why do you continue to
believe that you will be taken seriously?  Like I said, the impact wasn't
hard enough.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: bowenjm@rintintin.colorado.edu                    13-Dec-99 02:53:04
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 03:31:19
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: bowenjm@rintintin.colorado.edu (Jason Bowen)

In article <38542283.F14569D2@WarpCity.com>,
Tim Martin  <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com> wrote:
>Marty wrote:
>
>> Tim Martin wrote:
>> >
>> > Alan Boritz wrote:
>> >
>> > > Wipe your chin, take your kneepads, and get out of here, Timmy.
>> >
>> > Statements such as this confirm to all the
>> > whining ass/fool you continually demonstrate
>> > yourself to be.
>>
>> Statements such as this confirm to all the whining ass/fool you continually
>> demonstrate yourself to be.
>
>Not gonna play this game Marty.  Your personal desire
>to start flame wars with those you have a personal
>hatred for are simply not worth the time of day.

This coming from somebody that does just that, priceless.  So was it an
airbag or a seatbelt that kept you free to spew hypocrisy?

>
>Tim Martin
>The OS/2 Guy
>Warp City (http://warpcity.com)
>"We Close The Y2K Discount Door For '99 Members 12/15"
>
>


--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: fake@forgitaboutit.com                            13-Dec-99 03:07:04
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 03:31:20
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: David H. McCoy <fake@forgitaboutit.com>

In article <QhAV4gBhDm2M092yn@cybernex.net>, aboritz@cybernex.net says...
>In article <830gvf$hjj$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, innoval@ibm.net wrote:
>>Bob, we didn't do everything right. I know that. We learned.
>
>No you didn't.
>
>>We failed
>>at the OS/2 market. Partly it was the market and partly it was blunders
>>on our part.
>
>No, it was mostly blunders on YOUR part.  The market was always there, but
you
>refused to believe that the customers you screwed would talk to other
>potential customers and possibly spread news that your support sucked, and
>your employees were poorly managed.  What I particularly find amazing is the
>number of times you publicly state this, while introducing something else to
>separate OS/2 users from their cash.  Maybe YOU can try to rewrite history,
>but not everyone's going to buy your line of bullshit.
>

Hardly fair. OS/2 is simply unable to sustain a ISV on just about any level. 
Many try and eventually, one by one, they leave.



-- 
---------------------------------------
David H. McCoy
dmccoy@EXTRACT_THIS_mnsinc.com
---------------------------------------

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: rsteiner@visi.com                                 12-Dec-99 22:19:08
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 03:31:20
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: rsteiner@visi.com (Richard Steiner)

Here in comp.os.os2.marketplace, aboritz@cybernex.net (Alan Boritz)
spake unto us, saying:

>No, Doug, "a ton" there isn't, not hardly.  Depending upon your choice of
>delivery, the choice is certainly less than 5.  The choice of NNTP (and
>mail) clients with active support (now) is now down to 1.

There are considerably more than five newsreaders for OS/2, Alan.

-- 
   -Rich Steiner  >>>--->  rsteiner@visi.com  >>>---> Bloomington, MN
     OS/2 + BeOS + Linux + Solaris + Win95 + WinNT4 + FreeBSD + DOS
      + VMWare + Fusion + vMac + Executor = PC Hobbyist Heaven! :-)
                  * SLMR 2.0 #694 * Just kidding!!!  :-)

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: miharris@connectcorp.net                          13-Dec-99 04:50:29
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 03:31:20
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: miharris@connectcorp.net

On Sun, 12 Dec 1999 14:20:03, aboritz@cybernex.net (Alan Boritz) 
wrote:

 
Quotedl>I'm pretty sure I got the newsreader for free too.
Quotedl
QuotedlOnly if you got your registration key in a warez newsgroup, I'm
afraid.  The
Quotedlrest of us paid for it, and received no support assistance when it
wouldn't
Quotedlwork.  Innoval never released a free registration code for that
product.

You're WAY out of line here,... I got a FREE copy of the newsreader 
(not warez).  It was free to those of us who purchased the GREEN 
version of PRM v1.0. .... then again,... that may have been long 
before you came on board as an os/2'er!   Next, time be a little more 
careful about (accusing ppl of illegal actions) sticking your foot in 
your mouth,... you may have accidently stepped in something!  ;^)

                        _\\|//_    Pssst!
                       (` o-o ') /
        ---------ooO-(_)-Ooo------------

The Box said, "Requires Windows95 or better."
I use better, much better thank you...
                                         
Warped with OS/2 4.0 at FP 8 and Java 1.1.7A
_______________________________________
M   i   k   e   "D a B u l l"     H   a   r   r   i   s       

_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/  
Undernet
#OS/2: Chanop 
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/  

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: leea@psynet.net                                   12-Dec-99 20:47:29
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 03:31:20
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: Lee Aroner  <leea@psynet.net>

Dan:

Thanks for responding so quickly. The news is all good. Linux 
servers is good. 

I really wasn't slamming the TS I spoke to: ISP's don't pay 
all that well, OS/2 folk are few and far between and, as we 
all know, it's a Windows world out there. But she could have 
been at least a little bit better prepared. In any case, 
having once been a network admin for a frame relay/ISP outfit 
that you would recognize if I named it, I fully understand the 
situation and it doesn't bother me, as I suspect it won't 
bother most OS/2 users - for the most part, we don't need tech 
support. 

Yes, I got through right away, yes the attitiude was 
excellent, she was really trying to be helpful, all good 
points!

I'll give the 800 number a shot in a minute, soon as I get it 
added to the firewall config. It definitely needs to be on the 
signup page.

One other point, they *really* need to do news. It's not that 
hard to put up a couple Linux boxes to run news from and UUNet 
can push to them no problem. Even if connects are good, I'd 
still have to maintain another connection just to get news - 
that keeps them in the "Convenient when on the road" catagory.

Thanks again for the response!

LRA 

(PS) Still using NetExtra - great program!

------------------------
> Lee, you make some good points.
> 
> Let me address servers first. All ISP800 mail servers are 
Linux. Some
> webhosting is Linux and some is other Unix variants. I think 
one site
> is AIX. There are no NT servers anywhere in the ISP800 
system. Let me
> stree that, NO NT SERVERS. See FAQ at http://isp800/os2/
> 
> Sure, it sounds like Windows support when you call tech 
support. I wish
> it weren't so but that is what AFST's market looks like. But 
AFST is
> willing to give OS/2 users a go. When I suggested the OS/2 
deal to
> AFST, it was received with enthusiasm. I talked to two 
"lead" tech
> support people who were thrilled about the prospects of OS/2 
users and
> recognize that OS/2, though a slim market share, comprises 
an
> important, talented, and savvy group.
> 
> As for naive, I don't know who you talked to. There are 
about 55 TS
> folks if memory serves me right. Questions: Did you get 
through
> quickly? Did tech support try to be helpful? Was attitude 
good?
> 
> As for TS not knowing the 800 number, the ISP800 brand name 
goes online
> to the general public, and in particular OS/2 users, Jan 3. 
Under
> various other brand names, already in operation for a long 
time, often
> with different callin numbers and different support 
criteria, (and
> different access numbers), I don't think you would have 
encountered
> this situation. I don't know for sure. I'll pass on your 
comment to
> AFST. Here it is. Try it. I'm getting 50666 right now:
> 
>    888-488-4418
> 
> I'll suggest that AFST put the number on the pre-reg pages. 
I know it
> is on the regular pages for the 1/3/2000 launch. Remember, 
this was a
> hurry up set of web pages to give OS/2 users an 
extra-special deal.
> 
> Remember, ISP800, is functionally designed for corporate 
accounts where
> performance, availability, wide-spread access, and 
reliability are key.
> I just think OS/2 users are a good fit. I think we got a 
good deal from
> AFST.
> 
> Dan
> 
> 
> 
> In article <Chameleon.991211210441.leea@FRED>,
>   Lee Aroner  <leea@psynet.net> wrote:
> > Dan:
> >
> > Appreciate the effort. However, when I called to size up 
the
> > offer I found the following:
> >
> > (1) As you said, sounds like windows support, and rather 
naive
> > at that. What the hey, I don't need or want support anyways.
> >
> > (2) The TS with the teenage sounding voice that answered
> > didn't have any idea what their servers run on. I prefer Nix
> > of some sort, Linux is fine, but I need to know. I won't
> > support an ISP that runs NT.
> >
> > (3) The TS also didn't know who their backbone supplier was,
> > but after a couple minutes checking, figured out it was UUNet.
> > That part's fine.
> >
> > (4) The TS did not have, or pretended not to know what the 800
> > number was. If I can't test for connection speed, I'm not
> > interested in signing up. I get 49333 connects every time
> > where I'm at now, and I won't switch to an unknown without
> > some random test connects.
> >
> > If you do want to make some money off this deal, get them to
> > give out the 800 number for connects, and find out what they
> > serve mail and pages from. Gotta know those two...
> >
> > LRA
> >
> > ------------------------
> >   From: innoval@ibm.net
> >   Subject: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!
> >   Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 16:35:30 GMT
> >   To: "comp.os.os2.advocacy"
> > <@news:comp.os.os2.advocacy@192.168.16.2>, "comp.os.os2.apps"
> > <@news:comp.os.os2.apps@192.168.16.2>, "comp.os.os2.comm"
> > <@news:comp.os.os2.comm@192.168.16.2>,
> > "comp.os.os2.marketplace"
> > <@news:comp.os.os2.marketplace@192.168.16.2>
> >
> > > In article <zterrarrkvfarg.fmk8te0.pminews@news.exis.net>,
> > >   "Michael K Greene" <mgreene@hotbot.com> wrote:
> > > > On Fri, 10 Dec 1999 17:32:00 -0800, Tim Martin wrote:
> > > > Any other company would get a "great!!!", but let's look
> > at who you
> > > > are talking about - Innoval????
> > >
> > > Okay. Let's get some facts straight before this goes to far
> > off topic.
> > >
> > > AFST is actually offering ISP800 to OS/2 users, not InnoVal. Read
> the
> > > details and the FAQ at isp800.com/os2/. I, Dan Porter, sought and
> > > engineered the deal for OS/2 users. Anyone else (any supporter and
> user
> > > of OS/2 like myself) could have done it just as easily. InnoVal may
> have
> > > withdrawn from the OS/2 software market, but InnoVal still has OS/2
> > > users and supporters, and the company does recognize that OS/2 users
> > > WERE important to us and ARE important to us.
> > >
> > > I, personally, and InnoVal, have a vested interest in AFST. When
> AFST
> > > closes a big multi-user deal (and they have closed some very big
> deals)
> > > I and InnoVal earn something for our efforts. I would be surprised
> if
> > > OS/2 users as a group (oh, I wish it could be so) will be a big
> enough
> > > deal to earn us anything -- certainly not at the prices being
> offered to
> > > OS/2 users. It was just something that I wanted to do.
> > >
> > > I've seen what AFST brings to the table with 65 tech support people
> (all
> > > trained unfortunately in Windows stuff), 800 re-routed access, high
> > > bandwidth, high capacity email, etc. It's a good deal, even if you
> don't
> > > like InnoVal. All InnoVal did was try to bring you a good price when
> > > AFST launches public consumer service under the ISP800 brand.
> > >
> > > I was the one who pulled the plug on InnoVal's direct involvement
> with
> > > OS/2 software. It was a financial thing that investors get concerned
> > > about. Add to that, that as a company, we were not good enough with
> > > support in the consumer marketplace. I thought we could be, but I
> was
> > > mistaken. The market wasn't there anymore. So blame me. Not InnoVal.
> > >
> > > InnoVal, BTW, is lobbying for OS/2 solutions, support, etc. with
> AFST
> > > and its business partners and vendors. We are not doing so because
> we
> > > are emotionally attached to OS/2 but because, in some areas, it
> makes
> > > good business sense.
> > >
> > > ISP800 makes good business sense. I feel good that we (all of us who
> > > want to be a part of this) are, in a small way, involving two new
> > > vendors (AFST and National Dialup) in the OS/2 world.
> > >
> > > Dan Porter, President
> > > InnoVal Systems Solutions, Inc.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > > Before you buy.
> > >
> >
> > ---------------End of Original Message-----------------
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > Name: Lee Aroner
> > E-mail: Lee Aroner <leea@nospm.psynet.net>
> >
> > (Please remove "nospm." to reply...)
> >
> > Date: 12/11/1999
> > Time: 20:58:54
> >
> >  _,_ /|
> >  \`o.O' ACK!
> >  =(___)=
> >     U
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> 
> 
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
> 

---------------End of Original Message-----------------

--------------------------------------------------------
Name: Lee Aroner
E-mail: Lee Aroner <leea@nospm.psynet.net>

(Please remove "nospm." to reply...)

Date: 12/12/1999
Time: 20:47:58

 _,_ /|
 \`o.O' ACK!
 =(___)=
    U

--------------------------------------------------------

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
 * Origin: Usenet: bCandid - Powering the world's discussions - http
(1:109/42)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: leea@psynet.net                                   12-Dec-99 21:03:21
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 03:31:20
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: Lee Aroner  <leea@psynet.net>

Dan:

Just tried the 888 number, connects are in the 48000 - 49333 
range, very acceptable performance.

Now if they could just announce the availability of news 
starting on Jan 1....

LRA

------------------------
> Lee, you make some good points.
> 
> Let me address servers first. All ISP800 mail servers are 
Linux. Some
> webhosting is Linux and some is other Unix variants. I think 
one site
> is AIX. There are no NT servers anywhere in the ISP800 
system. Let me
> stree that, NO NT SERVERS. See FAQ at http://isp800/os2/
> 
> Sure, it sounds like Windows support when you call tech 
support. I wish
> it weren't so but that is what AFST's market looks like. But 
AFST is
> willing to give OS/2 users a go. When I suggested the OS/2 
deal to
> AFST, it was received with enthusiasm. I talked to two 
"lead" tech
> support people who were thrilled about the prospects of OS/2 
users and
> recognize that OS/2, though a slim market share, comprises an
> important, talented, and savvy group.
> 
> As for naive, I don't know who you talked to. There are about 55 TS
> folks if memory serves me right. Questions: Did you get through
> quickly? Did tech support try to be helpful? Was attitude good?
> 
> As for TS not knowing the 800 number, the ISP800 brand name goes online
> to the general public, and in particular OS/2 users, Jan 3. Under
> various other brand names, already in operation for a long time, often
> with different callin numbers and different support criteria, (and
> different access numbers), I don't think you would have encountered
> this situation. I don't know for sure. I'll pass on your comment to
> AFST. Here it is. Try it. I'm getting 50666 right now:
> 
>    888-488-4418
> 
> I'll suggest that AFST put the number on the pre-reg pages. I know it
> is on the regular pages for the 1/3/2000 launch. Remember, this was a
> hurry up set of web pages to give OS/2 users an extra-special deal.
> 
> Remember, ISP800, is functionally designed for corporate accounts where
> performance, availability, wide-spread access, and reliability are key.
> I just think OS/2 users are a good fit. I think we got a good deal from
> AFST.
> 
> Dan
> 
> 
> 
> In article <Chameleon.991211210441.leea@FRED>,
>   Lee Aroner  <leea@psynet.net> wrote:
> > Dan:
> >
> > Appreciate the effort. However, when I called to size up the
> > offer I found the following:
> >
> > (1) As you said, sounds like windows support, and rather naive
> > at that. What the hey, I don't need or want support anyways.
> >
> > (2) The TS with the teenage sounding voice that answered
> > didn't have any idea what their servers run on. I prefer Nix
> > of some sort, Linux is fine, but I need to know. I won't
> > support an ISP that runs NT.
> >
> > (3) The TS also didn't know who their backbone supplier was,
> > but after a couple minutes checking, figured out it was UUNet.
> > That part's fine.
> >
> > (4) The TS did not have, or pretended not to know what the 800
> > number was. If I can't test for connection speed, I'm not
> > interested in signing up. I get 49333 connects every time
> > where I'm at now, and I won't switch to an unknown without
> > some random test connects.
> >
> > If you do want to make some money off this deal, get them to
> > give out the 800 number for connects, and find out what they
> > serve mail and pages from. Gotta know those two...
> >
> > LRA
> >
> > ------------------------
> >   From: innoval@ibm.net
> >   Subject: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!
> >   Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 16:35:30 GMT
> >   To: "comp.os.os2.advocacy"
> > <@news:comp.os.os2.advocacy@192.168.16.2>, "comp.os.os2.apps"
> > <@news:comp.os.os2.apps@192.168.16.2>, "comp.os.os2.comm"
> > <@news:comp.os.os2.comm@192.168.16.2>,
> > "comp.os.os2.marketplace"
> > <@news:comp.os.os2.marketplace@192.168.16.2>
> >
> > > In article <zterrarrkvfarg.fmk8te0.pminews@news.exis.net>,
> > >   "Michael K Greene" <mgreene@hotbot.com> wrote:
> > > > On Fri, 10 Dec 1999 17:32:00 -0800, Tim Martin wrote:
> > > > Any other company would get a "great!!!", but let's look
> > at who you
> > > > are talking about - Innoval????
> > >
> > > Okay. Let's get some facts straight before this goes to far
> > off topic.
> > >
> > > AFST is actually offering ISP800 to OS/2 users, not InnoVal. Read
> the
> > > details and the FAQ at isp800.com/os2/. I, Dan Porter, sought and
> > > engineered the deal for OS/2 users. Anyone else (any supporter and
> user
> > > of OS/2 like myself) could have done it just as easily. InnoVal may
> have
> > > withdrawn from the OS/2 software market, but InnoVal still has OS/2
> > > users and supporters, and the company does recognize that OS/2 users
> > > WERE important to us and ARE important to us.
> > >
> > > I, personally, and InnoVal, have a vested interest in AFST. When
> AFST
> > > closes a big multi-user deal (and they have closed some very big
> deals)
> > > I and InnoVal earn something for our efforts. I would be surprised
> if
> > > OS/2 users as a group (oh, I wish it could be so) will be a big
> enough
> > > deal to earn us anything -- certainly not at the prices being
> offered to
> > > OS/2 users. It was just something that I wanted to do.
> > >
> > > I've seen what AFST brings to the table with 65 tech support people
> (all
> > > trained unfortunately in Windows stuff), 800 re-routed access, high
> > > bandwidth, high capacity email, etc. It's a good deal, even if you
> don't
> > > like InnoVal. All InnoVal did was try to bring you a good price when
> > > AFST launches public consumer service under the ISP800 brand.
> > >
> > > I was the one who pulled the plug on InnoVal's direct involvement
> with
> > > OS/2 software. It was a financial thing that investors get concerned
> > > about. Add to that, that as a company, we were not good enough with
> > > support in the consumer marketplace. I thought we could be, but I
> was
> > > mistaken. The market wasn't there anymore. So blame me. Not InnoVal.
> > >
> > > InnoVal, BTW, is lobbying for OS/2 solutions, support, etc. with
> AFST
> > > and its business partners and vendors. We are not doing so because
> we
> > > are emotionally attached to OS/2 but because, in some areas, it
> makes
> > > good business sense.
> > >
> > > ISP800 makes good business sense. I feel good that we (all of us who
> > > want to be a part of this) are, in a small way, involving two new
> > > vendors (AFST and National Dialup) in the OS/2 world.
> > >
> > > Dan Porter, President
> > > InnoVal Systems Solutions, Inc.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > > Before you buy.
> > >
> >
> > ---------------End of Original Message-----------------
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > Name: Lee Aroner
> > E-mail: Lee Aroner <leea@nospm.psynet.net>
> >
> > (Please remove "nospm." to reply...)
> >
> > Date: 12/11/1999
> > Time: 20:58:54
> >
> >  _,_ /|
> >  \`o.O' ACK!
> >  =(___)=
> >     U
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> 
> 
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
> 

---------------End of Original Message-----------------

--------------------------------------------------------
Name: Lee Aroner
E-mail: Lee Aroner <leea@nospm.psynet.net>

(Please remove "nospm." to reply...)

Date: 12/12/1999
Time: 21:03:43

 _,_ /|
 \`o.O' ACK!
 =(___)=
    U

--------------------------------------------------------

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: miharris@connectcorp.net                          13-Dec-99 05:14:09
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 03:31:21
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: miharris@connectcorp.net

On Sun, 12 Dec 1999 20:40:48, aboritz@cybernex.net (Alan Boritz) 
wrote:

 
QuotedlNo, it was mostly blunders on YOUR part.  The market was always there, 
but you
Quotedlrefused to believe that the customers you screwed would talk to other
Quotedlpotential customers and possibly spread news that your support sucked, 
and
Quotedlyour employees were poorly managed.  What I particularly find amazing
is the
Quotedlnumber of times you publicly state this, while introducing something
else to
Quotedlseparate OS/2 users from their cash.  Maybe YOU can try to rewrite
history,
Quotedlbut not everyone's going to buy your line of bullshit.

Well, I for one don't know how many Innoval products YOU purchased,...
but I own PRM, JWM, WWW, and NetEXTRA.  One a scale of 1-10, I rated 
their tech-support a "9".  They did dropped the ball a couple of times
and (Linda, sorry if I forget her name) did get flippant with me on at
least one occasion in an email correspondence, but hey, everyone is 
entitled to a bad day!   On the whole, I was very pleased with their 
tech support,... I found them to be knowledable and to project an 
attitude that they truely did care!   Sorry, if you didn't have a 
similar experience, but if the attitude you're projecting in this NG 
is indicative of how you correspond with ppl,.... one doesn't have to 
wonder why!

                        _\\|//_    Pssst!
                       (` o-o ') /
        ---------ooO-(_)-Ooo------------

The Box said, "Requires Windows95 or better."
I use better, much better thank you...
                                         
Warped with OS/2 4.0 at FP 8 and Java 1.1.7A
_______________________________________
M   i   k   e   "D a B u l l"     H   a   r   r   i   s       

_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/  
Undernet
#OS/2: Chanop
 _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/  

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: hunters@sapphire.indstate.edu                     13-Dec-99 05:34:22
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 03:31:21
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: hunters@sapphire.indstate.edu

In article <831n2l$r5c@peabody.colorado.edu>,
  bowenjm@rintintin.colorado.edu (Jason Bowen) wrote:

> So was it an airbag or a seatbelt that kept you free to spew
> hypocrisy?

Now that was uncalled for. Good God man, have you no sense of decency?

--
-Steven Hunter                *OS/2 Warp 4 * |But on the other hand...|
hunters@sapphire.indstate.edu *AMD K6-2 400* |There's 5 more fingers. |


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: rlackl1@attglobal.net                             13-Dec-99 02:30:08
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 05:13:27
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: rlackl1@attglobal.net

In <3859ea15.5012307@news.borg.com>, on 12/12/99 
   at 06:36 PM, jglatt@spamgone-borg.com (Jeff Glatt) said:

>What's so exemplary about leaving the OS/2 marketplace? Virtually all
>commercial OS/2 developers have done so by now, and I have no doubt that
>countless other developers have done so too. Hell, a great number of
>endusers have done so too. It's not like leaving behind OS/2 is uncommon.
>Just ask IBM and they'll tell you (in a leaked memo, probably)

Actually, at least a year ago I mentioned that I was an OS/2 user to our
'friendly' IBM (mainframe) CE, and he smirked and said that IBM wasn't
going to continue supporting it.  OS/2 still runs on the IOSP boxes that
control the big IBM boxes, but I don't know for how much longer.

-------
rlackl1@attglobal.net
-------

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: jknott@ibm.net                                    12-Dec-99 09:59:29
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 10:24:20
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: jknott@ibm.net (James Knott)

I assume this offer is valid only in the U.S.?  :-(


In article <3851A98F.459420AF@WarpCity.com>,
Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com> wrote:
>Here's some hot news for all you NON-Warp City Members:
>
>FST Inc, has joined in a business partnership arrangement
>with National DialUp Services and InnoVal Systems Solutions,
>to provide a low-cost nationwide ISP service for OS/2 users.
>ISP800, a private brand ISP for corporate customers, is
>inaugurating service for consumers on January 3,  2000.
>
>Extra special prices are available for any OS/2 user who
>pre-registers for  the service by December 30, 1999. In
>addition, three subscribers will be selected, at random,
>from the first 100 OS/2 users who signup. These three
>subscribers will receive free ISP service for one year until
>December 31, 2000.
>
>Highlights of ISP800 service include:
>
>Your choice of:
>
>Unlimited 56K access through an 800 dialup number or unlimited service
>using a local dialup number.
>
>A high performance and high capacity POP3 email mailbox
>
>SMTP outbound email
>
>Toll free 24/7 technical support
>
>Very low cost for OS/2 users. ISP800 may also be used with Linux,
>Mac, and  Windows95/98 client platforms.
>
>No signup fees. You may cancel the service at the end of any month.
>
>Anyone who travels, uses the Internet from more than one permanent
>location, or lives in an area not supported by a local access number,
>is encouraged to use the 800 number. Performance on the 800 number
>is equal to that of local access numbers since all connections are
>automatically and instantly re-directed through a close-proximity
>modem. Access with the 800 number is available anywhere in the
>United States where a dial tone is available. THERE IS NEVER AN
>ADDITIONAL FEE FOR USING THE 800 NUMBER TO ACCESS ISP800.
>Airfone (in plane service) and some hotels do charge access
>fees when you dial an 800 number.
>
>ISP800 Prices:
>
>    Regular service:   $19.95
>    For all OS/2 Users:   $15.95 ***
>
>*** Anyone who pre-registers for the service by December 30, 1999, will
>receive the first year of service for only $11.95 per month. You must be
>an
>OS/2 user to pre-register at this price. Your pre-registration must be
>received by 5:00pm on 12/30/99.
>
>Additional email accounts are $3.95 per month. Limit is four additional
>email accounts.
>
>Please note: There is no direct USENET newsgroup access at this time. If
>
>enough OS/2 users subscribe and there is sufficient interest, ISP800
>will
>add newsgroup access for OS/2 users. Deja (dejanews) and other web-based
>
>newsgroup services may be used in lieu of standard USENET.
>
>For additional information, and to signup for ISP800, please visit
>http://isp800.com/os2. In particular, see the price page and the FAQ
>page.
>For additional information send an email to os2isp@innoval.com.
>
>---------------------
>
>The OS/2 Community should sit up and take notice and support
>this new enterprise!
>
>Tim Martin
>The OS/2 Guy
>Warp City (http://warpcity.com)
>"Y2K Special Discount Memberships Close 12/15!)
>

-- 
E-mail jknott@ca.ibm.com
_________________________________________________________________________
The above opinions are my own and not those of ISM Corp., a subsidiary of
IBM Canada Ltd.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: wsonna@ibm.net                                    13-Dec-99 12:14:16
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 10:24:20
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: wsonna@ibm.net (William Sonna)

On Sun, 12 Dec 1999 18:36:15, jglatt@spamgone-borg.com (Jeff Glatt) 
wrote:

> >William Sonna
> >Innoval, in contrast, was exemplary in the manner in which they left 
> >the OS/2 maketplace.
> 
> What's so exemplary about leaving the OS/2 marketplace?

I said "in the manner in which they left".

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: aboritz@cybernex.net                              13-Dec-99 06:26:02
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 14:27:00
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: aboritz@cybernex.net (Alan Boritz)

In article
<o33IbyOQk5WV-pn2-dGmXdSNPI6fU@miharris.connectcorp.net.209.43.130.112>,
miharris@connectcorp.net wrote:
>On Sun, 12 Dec 1999 14:20:03, aboritz@cybernex.net (Alan Boritz) 
>wrote:
>
> 
>Quotedl>I'm pretty sure I got the newsreader for free too.
>Quotedl
>QuotedlOnly if you got your registration key in a warez newsgroup, I'm
afraid.  The
>Quotedlrest of us paid for it, and received no support assistance when it
wouldn't
>Quotedlwork.  Innoval never released a free registration code for that
product.
>
>You're WAY out of line here,... I got a FREE copy of the newsreader 
>(not warez).  It was free to those of us who purchased the GREEN 
>version of PRM v1.0.

You idiot, you paid for BOTH products.  "Free" in that context has a very
different meaning.

> .... then again,... that may have been long 
>before you came on board as an os/2'er!

Not likely.  It was a while before I experimented with PRM, but it was a
version before 2.00.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: bowenjm@rintintin.colorado.edu                    13-Dec-99 22:19:05
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 19:44:00
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: bowenjm@rintintin.colorado.edu (Jason Bowen)

In article <8320hk$h7g$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,
 <hunters@sapphire.indstate.edu> wrote:
>In article <831n2l$r5c@peabody.colorado.edu>,
>  bowenjm@rintintin.colorado.edu (Jason Bowen) wrote:
>
>> So was it an airbag or a seatbelt that kept you free to spew
>> hypocrisy?
>
>Now that was uncalled for. Good God man, have you no sense of decency?

Tim told blatant lies about me, accused me of illegal activities that
are punishable by jail time, and didn't have a shred of proof.  I
actually had to have a meeting with my boss and the abuse person over his
lies, of course I quickly showed them what an ass he was and they laughed 
it off but he still accused me of illegal activity. I have no sympathy
for him, I consider his accident karma coming back at him.

>
>--
>-Steven Hunter                *OS/2 Warp 4 * |But on the other hand...|
>hunters@sapphire.indstate.edu *AMD K6-2 400* |There's 5 more fingers. |
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: dboultr@spamfree.erols.com                        13-Dec-99 23:05:05
  To: All                                               13-Dec-99 21:12:03
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: dboultr@spamfree.erols.com

On Mon, 13 Dec 1999 11:26:05, aboritz@cybernex.net (Alan Boritz) 
wrote:

> You idiot, you paid for BOTH products.  "Free" in that context has a very
> different meaning.

Gosh, Alan, I'm certainly impressed with your economic analysis.

Now, if we all chipped in and bought you a copy of Win98, would you 
just go away? 

Doug Boulter

To reply by e-mail, remove the obvious spam traps from the address

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: OS2Guy@WarpCity.com                               13-Dec-99 21:02:18
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 03:29:05
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com>

Jason Bowen wrote:

> >Now that was uncalled for. Good God man, have you no sense of decency?
>
> Tim told blatant lies about me, accused me of illegal activities that
> are punishable by jail time, and didn't have a shred of proof.  I
> actually had to have a meeting with my boss and the abuse person over his
> lies, of course I quickly showed them what an ass he was and they laughed
> it off but he still accused me of illegal activity. I have no sympathy
> for him, I consider his accident karma coming back at him.

Oh pah-tui!  You don't use OS/2.  You sit in the OS/2 newsgroups
and stalk and harass me, an OS/2 advocate.  Everytime I post
you attack followed by your never-ending whine AND you do it
all using your college's subsidized 'Net access, i.e., colorado.edu.

That's reason enough for your government subsidized Administrator
to reel you in for a little discussion.  Colorado officials are pretty leery
these days of errant students.  Keep it up as you are doing now -for
no valid reason other than your petty animosity toward me for filing
the complaint in the first place -and they'll call you in again.  Eventually
they will be required -by law- -and to cover their own cans- to yank your
colorado.edu access.  You'll then have an opportunity to try and retain
an account with a private I'Net provider.  Hint:  they'll put up with your
antics for about two minutes.

You've heard of roadrage?  You've got a case of netrage.  Get a grip.

Tim Martin
The OS/2 Guy
Warp City
http://warpcity.com
"Y2K Discount for 1999 Members Ends 1/215!)



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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: miharris@connectcorp.net                          14-Dec-99 06:45:08
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 03:29:06
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: miharris@connectcorp.net

On Mon, 13 Dec 1999 11:26:05, aboritz@cybernex.net (Alan Boritz) 
wrote:
 
QuotedlYou idiot, you paid for BOTH products.  "Free" in that context has a
very
Quotedldifferent meaning.

Hmmm, let me get this right,.... if I purchase a product for X dollars
and the company says that if I make said purchase BEFORE Y date they 
would give me Z product,... but if I purchased AFTER Y date then I 
would have to pay ($$$$) for Z product.  I think most ppl would agree 
with my interpretation of "free"  I'm sure you'd take a car dealer up 
on THAT offer if it were made to you,... but then again since you're 
the "smarter" one, you'd probably say naaah,  let the "idot" purchase 
it, since .....("Free" in that context has a very different meaning.) 
to you! ;^)
 

                        _\\|//_    Pssst!
                       (` o-o ') /
        ---------ooO-(_)-Ooo------------

The Box said, "Requires Windows95 or better."
I use better, much better thank you...
                                         
Warped with OS/2 4.0 at FP 8 and Java 1.1.7A
_______________________________________
M   i   k   e   "D a B u l l"     H   a   r   r   i   s       

_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/  
Undernet
#OS/2: Chanop
 _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/  

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: bowenjm@rintintin.colorado.edu                    14-Dec-99 05:17:10
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 03:29:06
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: bowenjm@rintintin.colorado.edu (Jason Bowen)

In article <3855CF6B.64A2719A@WarpCity.com>,
Tim Martin  <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com> wrote:
>Jason Bowen wrote:
>
>> >Now that was uncalled for. Good God man, have you no sense of decency?
>>
>> Tim told blatant lies about me, accused me of illegal activities that
>> are punishable by jail time, and didn't have a shred of proof.  I
>> actually had to have a meeting with my boss and the abuse person over his
>> lies, of course I quickly showed them what an ass he was and they laughed
>> it off but he still accused me of illegal activity. I have no sympathy
>> for him, I consider his accident karma coming back at him.
>
>Oh pah-tui!  You don't use OS/2.  You sit in the OS/2 newsgroups
>and stalk and harass me, an OS/2 advocate.  Everytime I post
>you attack followed by your never-ending whine AND you do it
>all using your college's subsidized 'Net access, i.e., colorado.edu.

You are so crazy with your persecution.  The accident was karma for sure.
My dislike of you has nothing to do with OS/2, it has to do with you being
a jerk.

>
>That's reason enough for your government subsidized Administrator
>to reel you in for a little discussion.  Colorado officials are pretty leery
>these days of errant students.  Keep it up as you are doing now -for
>no valid reason other than your petty animosity toward me for filing
>the complaint in the first place -and they'll call you in again.  Eventually
>they will be required -by law- -and to cover their own cans- to yank your
>colorado.edu access.  You'll then have an opportunity to try and retain
>an account with a private I'Net provider.  Hint:  they'll put up with your
>antics for about two minutes.

You're so compeltely full of crap.  Like I said the impact wasn't nearly
hard enough.  You never had anything on me and never will.  You keep
spouting your crazy persecution talk.  Report me Tim, you will get laughed
at again.  REPORT ME!!!!! DO IT!!!!  YOU'RE ALL TALK!

>

>You've heard of roadrage?  You've got a case of netrage.  Get a grip.

You're the one spouting the persecution complex, you need to get the grip.
You're the one convinced that your use of an OS is the reason people think
you are a nut.  Are you really convinced that people don't like you
because you use OS/2?

>
>Tim Martin
>The OS/2 Guy
>Warp City
>http://warpcity.com
>"Y2K Discount for 1999 Members Ends 1/215!)
>
>
>


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: OS2Guy@WarpCity.com                               13-Dec-99 21:32:12
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 03:29:06
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com>

Jason Bowen wrote:

> >You've heard of roadrage?  You've got a case of netrage.  Get a grip.
>
> You're the one spouting the persecution complex, you need to get the grip.
> You're the one convinced that your use of an OS is the reason people think
> you are a nut.  Are you really convinced that people don't like you
> because you use OS/2?
>

Please, explain to all of us why it is you -A NON OS/2 USER- has
lived, harassed and attacked OS/2 users in this newsgroup for
several years now.  Don't try turning it around and whining that
'it's everybody else - it's not me, the problem is you' because
that claim stinks as bad as your antics.

You simply will not give up.  You won't stop.  You stalk,
you harass, you whine again and again.  Then someone
complains to your government subsidized I'Net administrator
and you get called on the carpet for the antics.  Do you stop?
NO!  GOOD GOD NO!  By God if it takes from now until
doomsday you'll ride that OS/2 Newsgroup information
highway and ride with NetRAGE on the hood!

Drive on dude.  Right over the nearest OS/2 cliff.

Tim Martin
The OS/2 Guy
Warp City
http://warpcity.com
"Y2K Discount for 1999 Members Ends 1/215!)



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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: bowenjm@rintintin.colorado.edu                    14-Dec-99 06:06:29
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 03:29:06
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: bowenjm@rintintin.colorado.edu (Jason Bowen)

In article <3855D669.7AADAEE0@WarpCity.com>,
Tim Martin  <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com> wrote:
>Jason Bowen wrote:
>
>> >You've heard of roadrage?  You've got a case of netrage.  Get a grip.
>>
>> You're the one spouting the persecution complex, you need to get the grip.
>> You're the one convinced that your use of an OS is the reason people think
>> you are a nut.  Are you really convinced that people don't like you
>> because you use OS/2?
>>
>
>Please, explain to all of us why it is you -A NON OS/2 USER- has
>lived, harassed and attacked OS/2 users in this newsgroup for
>several years now.  Don't try turning it around and whining that
>'it's everybody else - it's not me, the problem is you' because
>that claim stinks as bad as your antics.

No you are convinced that people dislike you because of your use of an OS.
Just because this happens in an OS/2 newsgroup doen't mean it is about
OS/2.  You are too stupid to realize that.  I dislike you because you lie
and laughed when I heard that you got hurt.  You don't deserve pity,
somebody that will lie and hate over a corporate product needs to get a
grip.  Since you are making claims Tim back them up, point to a post where
I harass somebody because they use OS/2, in other words I harass them
because of a product they use.  You can't do it Tim because I don't.  Find
a post where I say that I am doing something because somebody uses OS/2.


>
>You simply will not give up.  You won't stop.  You stalk,
>you harass, you whine again and again.  Then someone
>complains to your government subsidized I'Net administrator
>and you get called on the carpet for the antics.  Do you stop?
>NO!  GOOD GOD NO!  By God if it takes from now until
>doomsday you'll ride that OS/2 Newsgroup information
>highway and ride with NetRAGE on the hood!

Look at your froth at the mouth.  You and "Nick" were laughed at, making
legal complaints with no other contact means than an email address.  I
wasn't called on the carpet.  A complaint was lodged, investigated,
laughed at and thrown out.  You are a joke, you lied, you know you lied
and don't deny it.  I ride you for telling lies about me.  The meeting was
actually a fun time, showing what an ass you are and how inept you are at
your job.  The only bad part was the abuse person getting annoyed with you
and telling you to shut up unless you had proof of your accusations.


>
>Drive on dude.  Right over the nearest OS/2 cliff.

You're rantings don't make sense but since the are fueled by a persecution
complex I am not suprised.

>
>Tim Martin
>The OS/2 Guy
>Warp City
>http://warpcity.com
>"Y2K Discount for 1999 Members Ends 1/215!)
>
>
>


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: donnelly@tampabay.rr.com                          14-Dec-99 13:15:24
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 14:35:14
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: donnelly@tampabay.rr.com (Buddy Donnelly)

On Tue, 14 Dec 1999 06:06:58, bowenjm@rintintin.colorado.edu (Jason 
Bowen) wrote:
snip
> 
> Look at your froth at the mouth.  You and "Nick" were laughed at, making
> legal complaints with no other contact means than an email address.  I
> wasn't called on the carpet.  A complaint was lodged, investigated,
> laughed at and thrown out.  You are a joke, you lied, you know you lied
> and don't deny it.  I ride you for telling lies about me.  The meeting was
> actually a fun time, showing what an ass you are and how inept you are at
> your job.  The only bad part was the abuse person getting annoyed with you
> and telling you to shut up unless you had proof of your accusations.
> 
> 
> >
> >Drive on dude.  Right over the nearest OS/2 cliff.
> 
> You're rantings don't make sense but since the are fueled by a persecution
> complex I am not suprised.

So, "Jason", let me see if I've got this right: You've already had a 
formal warning about using USENET improperly? Why not learn from that 
experience and stop mailing personal correspondence to these groups? 
It's not only more "legal" but more respectful of the rest of us.


-- 

Good luck,

Buddy

Buddy Donnelly
donnelly@tampabay.rr.com


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: skrise@attglobal.net                              14-Dec-99 10:07:02
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 14:35:15
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: skrise@attglobal.net

Jason Bowen wrote:
> Tim Martin  <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com> wrote:
>>Jason Bowen wrote:
<mean spirited back and forth snipped>

FOR FUCK'S SAKE, BOYS!!

You are both acting in a completely irresponsible manner.
If you all can't just get along at least have the decency
to not waste bandwidth with your puerile pissing contests.

The both of you are ruining this newsgroup for the benefit
of your own personal vendettas and making extremely difficult
for those of us who actually have questions to ask about OS/2.

Please, stop it now.

Steven
-- 
Abstainer: a weak person who yields
           to the temptation of denying himself a pleasure.
           ... Ambrose Bierce

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: bowenjm@rintintin.colorado.edu                    14-Dec-99 15:37:17
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 14:35:15
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: bowenjm@rintintin.colorado.edu (Jason Bowen)

In article <38565D18.2B9B@attglobal.net>,  <skrise@attglobal.net> wrote:
>Jason Bowen wrote:
>> Tim Martin  <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com> wrote:
>>>Jason Bowen wrote:
><mean spirited back and forth snipped>
>
>FOR FUCK'S SAKE, BOYS!!
>
>You are both acting in a completely irresponsible manner.
>If you all can't just get along at least have the decency
>to not waste bandwidth with your puerile pissing contests.
>
>The both of you are ruining this newsgroup for the benefit
>of your own personal vendettas and making extremely difficult
>for those of us who actually have questions to ask about OS/2.
>
>Please, stop it now.

It's up to you Tim, feel like acknowledging publicly that I didn't
crack or attempt to crack Warp City?


>
>Steven
>-- 
>Abstainer: a weak person who yields
>           to the temptation of denying himself a pleasure.
>           ... Ambrose Bierce


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: bowenjm@rintintin.colorado.edu                    14-Dec-99 15:31:15
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 14:35:15
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: bowenjm@rintintin.colorado.edu (Jason Bowen)

In article <jORXtcYCR8l4-pn2-K5cQtbbdhOUT@SPHERICALBURN.TAMPABAY.RR.COM>,
Buddy Donnelly <donnelly@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 14 Dec 1999 06:06:58, bowenjm@rintintin.colorado.edu (Jason 
>Bowen) wrote:
>snip
>> 
>> Look at your froth at the mouth.  You and "Nick" were laughed at, making
>> legal complaints with no other contact means than an email address.  I
>> wasn't called on the carpet.  A complaint was lodged, investigated,
>> laughed at and thrown out.  You are a joke, you lied, you know you lied
>> and don't deny it.  I ride you for telling lies about me.  The meeting was
>> actually a fun time, showing what an ass you are and how inept you are at
>> your job.  The only bad part was the abuse person getting annoyed with you
>> and telling you to shut up unless you had proof of your accusations.
>> 
>> 
>> >
>> >Drive on dude.  Right over the nearest OS/2 cliff.
>> 
>> You're rantings don't make sense but since the are fueled by a persecution
>> complex I am not suprised.
>
>So, "Jason", let me see if I've got this right: You've already had a 
>formal warning about using USENET improperly? Why not learn from that 
>experience and stop mailing personal correspondence to these groups? 
>It's not only more "legal" but more respectful of the rest of us.

For the record I have received no formal warning, Tim can tell you what CU
said about their view on usenet flame wars I am not in any trouble of any
sort, Tim is full of it. Tim lied about me in a public forum and
continues to lie.  I'd leave him be if he apoligized and acknowledged his
lie.  Tim claimed to have contacted the FBI and the Colorado State
Attorney Generals office of my alleged cracking of Warp City and didn't
provide a shred of evidence.  Tim has personally attacked people on the
OS/2 newsgroups as far back as I can remember.  This is about Tim's lies
about me cracking Warp City, nothing about posting in OS/2 newsgroups.  CU
would do something if I was attacking Tim for helping OS/2 users.  For
instance if Tim posted to help somebody with Netscape and I replied to it
saying you are a friggin dork Tim they'd admonish me.  I only reply to
attacks he does on others and his replies to that.  I am not under any
"thumb".  I don't start fights outright with Tim, I wait for him to post
his vitriol and then jump on him.  Tim has basically libled me in a public
forum, called me a criminal  when I didn't participate in any criminal
acts.  My participation in flame wars like this is no different than Tim's
rantings and I don't start the off topic posts.  I do reply to them though
helping perpetuate them.  Tim can admit his lie and apologize but he
doesn't have that kind of courage so he won't.  If he did I'd completely
leave him along, quite impressed that he apologized.

>
>--
>
>Good luck,
>
>Buddy
>
>Buddy Donnelly
>donnelly@tampabay.rr.com
>
>


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: nick@secant.com                                   14-Dec-99 14:23:13
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 19:59:12
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: Nick Knight <nick@secant.com>

In <3855D669.7AADAEE0@WarpCity.com>, on 12/13/99 
   at 09:32 PM, Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com> said:

>Please, explain to all of us why it is you -A NON OS/2 USER- has lived,
>harassed and attacked OS/2 users in this newsgroup for several years now. 
>Don't try turning it around and whining that

Have you guys ever heard of email?  You ought to try it.

Nick
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Nick Knight  <nick@secant.com>       http://nick.secant.com
Senior Software Engineer
Secant Technologies, Inc.             http://www.secant.com
-----------------------------------------------------------

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: era@usit.net                                      14-Dec-99 22:47:09
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 19:59:12
Subj: Tim Martin, Jason Bowen Read This

From: ERA <era@usit.net>

Please keep your fights off these particular groups:

Posted: comp.os.os2.marketplace, comp.os.os2.apps, comp.os.os2.comm

The c.o.o.misc group is not a problem as it seems to be mostly an
extended flame war and we can avoid it. However, the majority of us
follow the above listed groups for serious information and flame wars
are *very* off-topic here.

Tim, as an OS/2 advocate you should know better than this. If the guy
bugs ya, 'twit' him. It's not necessary to defend yourself against
lamers that claim something against you. We will all understand, and
applaud, when you choose to ignore this kind of attack. I don't want
to have to 'twit' you as you occasionally do have some good OS/2
information.

If either of you wish to respond send e-mail. Not not post to the
newsgroups with your replies please.
-- 
Gene Alexander <era@usit.net>
-- 
+==========================-=>Team OS/2<=-==========================+
#   Owner and C.E.O. - ERA Computer Consulting - Jackson, TN USA    #
#Providing IBM OS/2 and SCO OpenServer  Business Computing Solutions#
#         visit our www pages at http://eracc.bizland.com/          #
+===================================================================+
The Operating System/2 Version is 4.00 
Revision 9.029 
There are 47 Processes with 167 Threads.
This machine's uptime is 3d 0h 45m 37s 963ms.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: peter@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au                    14-Dec-99 23:27:29
  To: All                                               14-Dec-99 21:14:07
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: peter@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au (Peter Moylan)

Jason Bowen <bowenjm@rintintin.colorado.edu> wrote:
>In article <38565D18.2B9B@attglobal.net>,  <skrise@attglobal.net> wrote:
>>Jason Bowen wrote:
>>> Tim Martin  <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com> wrote:
>>>>Jason Bowen wrote:
>><mean spirited back and forth snipped>
>>
>>FOR FUCK'S SAKE, BOYS!!
>>
>>You are both acting in a completely irresponsible manner.
>>If you all can't just get along at least have the decency
>>to not waste bandwidth with your puerile pissing contests.
>>
>>The both of you are ruining this newsgroup for the benefit
>>of your own personal vendettas and making extremely difficult
>>for those of us who actually have questions to ask about OS/2.
>>
>>Please, stop it now.
>
>It's up to you Tim, feel like acknowledging publicly that I didn't
>crack or attempt to crack Warp City?

That sounds like an admission that they're not going to stop.

  *plonk*

-- 
Peter Moylan                                         peter@ee.newcastle.edu.au
See http://eepjm.newcastle.edu.au for OS/2 information and software

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: wayne@SPAM.tkb.att.ne.jp                          16-Dec-99 07:22:06
  To: All                                               15-Dec-99 21:17:21
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: "Wayne Bickell" <wayne@SPAM.tkb.att.ne.jp>

On Wed, 15 Dec 1999 21:38:45 GMT, weiss@tds.net wrote:

:>Considering how even IBM has dropped development for Warp client and there
is
:>no reasonably sized client market left for OS/2, why should any company
:>develop for OS/2 unless  profit is meaningless?
:>
:>It's a sad fact. We OS/2 users can use the client OS but there's little
:>incentive anymore to develop for it.

It's also a sad fact that in this situation one doesn't want to spend
any more money on OS/2 software. It seems like throwing good
money after bad :-(

Cheers

Wayne (big sigh!)

******************************************************
Wayne Bickell
Tokyo, Japan
wayne@tkb.att.ne.jp
******************************************************
           Posted with PMINews 2 for OS/2
  Running on OS/2 Warp 4 (UK)  + FixPak 9
******************************************************



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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: donnelly@tampabay.rr.com                          16-Dec-99 00:26:04
  To: All                                               15-Dec-99 21:17:21
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: donnelly@tampabay.rr.com (Buddy Donnelly)

On Wed, 15 Dec 1999 22:22:12, "Wayne Bickell" 
<wayne@SPAM.tkb.att.ne.jp> wrote:

> On Wed, 15 Dec 1999 21:38:45 GMT, weiss@tds.net wrote:
> 
> :>Considering how even IBM has dropped development for Warp client and there 
is
> :>no reasonably sized client market left for OS/2, why should any company
> :>develop for OS/2 unless  profit is meaningless?
> :>
> :>It's a sad fact. We OS/2 users can use the client OS but there's little
> :>incentive anymore to develop for it.
> 
> It's also a sad fact that in this situation one doesn't want to spend
> any more money on OS/2 software. It seems like throwing good
> money after bad :-(

Except the rare exception, like paying for new instalments of 
well-used software, like getting Nick Knight a few more Xmas checks 
(mine's on the way tonite) for his MR2 update.


-- 

Good luck,

Buddy

Buddy Donnelly
donnelly@tampabay.rr.com


--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: weiss@tds.net                                     15-Dec-99 21:38:22
  To: All                                               16-Dec-99 02:11:09
Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service!

From: weiss@tds.net

In comp.os.os2.advocacy Bob Eager <rde@tavi.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 07:45:35, andrew@netneurotic.de (Andrew J. Brehm) 
> wrote:

>> Why? What's wrong with Innoval?

> This is the company that quietly dropped support for, first, their 
> newsreader, then (not so quietly) BOTH their OS/2 mail clients. 
> Leaving loyal users out in the cold.

Not at all. Innoval made Post Road Mailer and Jstreet available for *free*
after they dropped out. That's pretty darn generous. They didn't have to.

And Jstreet is still being developed at http://www.polarbar.org.

Considering how even IBM has dropped development for Warp client and there is
no reasonably sized client market left for OS/2, why should any company
develop for OS/2 unless  profit is meaningless?

It's a sad fact. We OS/2 users can use the client OS but there's little
incentive anymore to develop for it.

Jeffrey

> -- 
> Bob Eager
> rde at tavi.co.uk
> PC Server 325; PS/2s 8595*3, 9595*3 (2*P60 + P90), 8535, 8570, 9556*2,
> 8580*6,
> 8557*2, 8550, 9577, 8530, P70, PC/AT..

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+============================================================================+
