
                   comp.os.os2.beta                 (Usenet)

                 Saturday, 18-Sep-1999 to Friday, 24-Sep-1999

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: snizinsk@us.ibm.com                               17-Sep-99 09:21:25
  To: All                                               18-Sep-99 01:08:05
Subj: ns461 download problem update

From: Skip Nizinski <snizinsk@us.ibm.com>

Various beta users have been very gracious in providing traces to us
thus far to try to determine what is causing downloads to terminate
prematurely (without an error indication). Among them, Jim LaLone, Frank
Schmittroth, Jerry Barrington, and Gene Alexander. I would like to
publicly thank them all for their assistance,

Thus far we have learned:

   * the problem seems to be timing-sensitive
   * the Injoy dialer is typically involved
   * the Injoy port speed setting affects the results

While the above is not necessarily true in all cases, it has been the
majority of cases.

What we have seen in the traces is that the server side of the socket is
reporting back a return code indicating that the download has completed
and Communicator sees no error indication, despite the fact that we only
have a partial file.

We have further engaged our TCP/IP service team to try to get to the
root cause of this problem.

We will continue pursuing this problem, but it is very unlikely that any
changes to Communicator will be made before we ship.

Skip Nizinski

IBM Austin - Netscape Communicator for OS/2 Development


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From: haa@mail1.stofanet.dk                             17-Sep-99 19:00:22
  To: All                                               18-Sep-99 01:08:05
Subj: Re: ns461 download problem update

From: Henrik Aaen <haa@mail1.stofanet.dk>

Skip Nizinski wrote:
> 
> Various beta users have been very gracious in providing traces to us
> thus far to try to determine what is causing downloads to terminate
> prematurely (without an error indication). Among them, Jim LaLone, Frank
> Schmittroth, Jerry Barrington, and Gene Alexander. I would like to
> publicly thank them all for their assistance,
> 
> Thus far we have learned:
> 
>    * the problem seems to be timing-sensitive
>    * the Injoy dialer is typically involved
>    * the Injoy port speed setting affects the results
> 
> While the above is not necessarily true in all cases, it has been the
> majority of cases.
> 
> What we have seen in the traces is that the server side of the socket is
> reporting back a return code indicating that the download has completed
> and Communicator sees no error indication, despite the fact that we only
> have a partial file.
> 
> We have further engaged our TCP/IP service team to try to get to the
> root cause of this problem.
> 
> We will continue pursuing this problem, but it is very unlikely that any
> changes to Communicator will be made before we ship.
> 
> Skip Nizinski
> 
> IBM Austin - Netscape Communicator for OS/2 Development

And the problem seems to be catalysed by other activities in the
brouser.
/Henrik Aaen using cable modem (download speeds up to 85K/Sec)

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From: arnews@dsgml.com                                  17-Sep-99 15:46:15
  To: All                                               18-Sep-99 01:08:05
Subj: Re: ns461 download problem update

From: Ariel <arnews@dsgml.com>

On Fri, 17 Sep 1999, Skip Nizinski wrote:

> What we have seen in the traces is that the server side of the socket is
> reporting back a return code indicating that the download has completed
> and Communicator sees no error indication, despite the fact that we only
> have a partial file.

I have a request. Take a look at wget - it has enough intelligence to get a
web or ftp file regardless of bad connections, errors and anything else.
It will keep trying and not stop till it gets the entire file.

My request is that you do the same. For example yesterday I was trying to
view a 200K web page which kept stopping (not stalling, netscape said
download complete) at about 80K, and since it was a table I saw nothing.
What you should do is keep trying to get the download until you get the
entire thing. Of course you should use the resume functions of http and
ftp. I kept reloading, but I was never able to get it - I finally used
wget to download it, then viewed it in netscape.

The same is true with downloads, anything you get off the web should pass
through this code. You can easily take a look at the wget code to see how
it does it - even if you don't copy it verbatim because of the license.

Is there anything in what I'm asking that can't be done for any reason,
technical, or otherwise?

	-Ariel

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From: huffd@nls.net                                     18-Sep-99 01:35:08
  To: All                                               18-Sep-99 04:37:13
Subj: Re: Microsoft Web Page?

From: "David D. Huff Jr." <huffd@nls.net>

It wasn't working for OS/2 and Netscape previously but I see it is working
now.

Marian Alexie wrote:

> Hi,
>
> You'll find microsoft technical support at
>
> http://www.microsoft.com/support
>
> I got connected to the above web page
> and was able to see it with both
> OS/2 Warp 4 (FP10) and Caldera OpenLInux 2.3.
>
> Tim Erickson wrote:
> >
> > On Sat, 11 Sep 1999 22:33:22, Chuck Russell <crussell4@earthlink.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Yes, I get a "Page not found". I wonder if that would be the case if I
had
> > > booted Win 9x?
> > >
> > > Timothy Sipples wrote:
> > >
> > > > Here's a weird one:
> > > >
> > > > Try visiting http://support.microsoft.com/support/default.asp, then
click on
> > > > "Search the KB."
> > > >
> >
> > I went for a visit. This is the result:
> >
> > http://support.microsoft.com/support/error/404.htm?404;http://support.
> > microsoft.com/support/misc/unsupported.asp
> >
> > That is copied verbatim from the browser's GoTo box. Note the last
> > URL.
> >
> > hmmmm...
> >
> > Tim
>
> --

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From: brobbin2@rochester.rr.com                         17-Sep-99 20:10:10
  To: All                                               18-Sep-99 04:37:14
Subj: Re: ns461 download problem update

From: Britton Robbins <brobbin2@rochester.rr.com>

This may not be the appropriate place for a request like this but here it
goes.

There is a CRISIS going on in comp.os.os2.advocacy right now.

People are making it sound like OS/2 is really dead this time.  i know
better than to beleive it but there are a good number of the people there
sounding like they are throwing in the towel.

Anybody involved in current IBM sanctiond OS/2 development needs to go to
c.o.o.a and let them know it's not dead yet.

Britton

Skip Nizinski wrote:

> Various beta users have been very gracious in providing traces to us
> thus far to try to determine what is causing downloads to terminate
> prematurely (without an error indication). Among them, Jim LaLone, Frank
> Schmittroth, Jerry Barrington, and Gene Alexander. I would like to
> publicly thank them all for their assistance,
>
> Thus far we have learned:
>
>    * the problem seems to be timing-sensitive
>    * the Injoy dialer is typically involved
>    * the Injoy port speed setting affects the results
>
> While the above is not necessarily true in all cases, it has been the
> majority of cases.
>
> What we have seen in the traces is that the server side of the socket is
> reporting back a return code indicating that the download has completed
> and Communicator sees no error indication, despite the fact that we only
> have a partial file.
>
> We have further engaged our TCP/IP service team to try to get to the
> root cause of this problem.
>
> We will continue pursuing this problem, but it is very unlikely that any
> changes to Communicator will be made before we ship.
>
> Skip Nizinski
>
> IBM Austin - Netscape Communicator for OS/2 Development

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From: murdoctor@ausNOSPAMtin.rr.com                     18-Sep-99 05:27:29
  To: All                                               18-Sep-99 06:00:27
Subj: Re: Netscape 416 Beta2 wrecks Zip association...How to revert D'n'D?

From: "Jeffrey S. Kobal" <murdoctor@ausNOSPAMtin.rr.com>

Buddy Donnelly wrote:

> Are we saying that Netscape requirements will be allowed
> to violate IBM's longstanding rules for WPS programming?

No, what "we" are saying is that using the WPS drag/drop limits
what the application can do while dragging, so we had to choose
between limiting drag/drop capability or limiting functionality in
the browser.  We chose to keep the internal browser functionality
and handle dragging to the WPS ourselves.

> Someone should speak up to protect OS/2 in this regard.

Protect OS/2?  From what?  Producing a browser for the OS/2
platform so that the customers that are funding the continued
existence of the operating system will be able to utilize current
Internet technologies seems to me like the best way to "protect
OS/2"... wouldn't you agree?

> It seems to me that Netscape should be improved ... [snip]

Ok, if you wish to turn this into a Netscape-bashing discussion,
I'll move right along.  I was attempting to provide potentially
information to a user that was having a problem, not open up
the floor for picking apart the entire project.

> to the point where it doesn't crash itself, or OS/2.

Whenever I'm home visiting my parents... before I leave the
house, my mom always tells me to "drive safely".  Of course,
this is completely silly advice, since I obviously would want to
be driving safely anyway.... it's not like I'm going to say, "Oh,
WOW!  I didn't THINK of that!  Thanks, Mom, I will!"  She does
it, however, because she cares about my safety.

On the same token, your advice to us that we produce a
product that doesn't crash is equally frivolous.  Obviously, we
don't want the browser to crash, and we do what we can to
ensure that doesn't happen.  And your "reminder" as such
serves to show that YOU care about the quality of our product
as well.

However, just getting on the road in the car has some level
of danger to it... with the dangers increasing with the duration
and complexity of the drive.  The same is true of developing
a complex piece of software.  (Yes, I realize I've violated the
taboo metaphor of computers and cars, and I apologize for
that.)

> We DON'T have a well-programmed browser, and we
> DON'T have somebody going out and getting plugins for it.

On the former, I'm sorry you feel that way... on the latter, you
can take that up with the development community at large.

Jeffrey S. Kobal
IBM Corporation
Netscape Communicator for OS/2 - Development Team


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From: murdoctor@ausNOSPAMtin.rr.com                     18-Sep-99 06:08:07
  To: All                                               18-Sep-99 11:03:05
Subj: Re: ns461 download problem update

From: "Jeffrey S. Kobal" <murdoctor@ausNOSPAMtin.rr.com>

Britton Robbins wrote:

> There is a CRISIS going on in comp.os.os2.advocacy right now.
>
> People are making it sound like OS/2 is really dead this time.  i know
> better than to beleive it but there are a good number of the people there
> sounding like they are throwing in the towel.

Just looks like more of "The Sky Is Falling!" to me.... happens all
the time around there.

Here are the things they are panicking about:

(1) IBM reportedly has no plans to release another OS/2 client.

ANSWER: IBM usually doesn't announce "plans" to do anything.
In fact, more often than not, the announcement doesn't come
until the "plans" have already turned into a completed task.  In
addition, note that it was 2-3 years between Warp3 and Warp4,
yet it has not even been 2 years since Warp4 was released, so
why all the hubbub for a new client release, especially with the
whole Year 2000 stuff looming over right now?

(2) Negotiations for Stardock to produce an OS/2 client have
reputedly ended with IBM declining Stardock's proposal.

ANSWER: I don't know any of the background to this situation,
but I can tell you I'm not surprised with the outcome; in fact,
I'd have been VERY surprised if the deal went through.  There
are a lot of legal issues involved in licensing out source code,
and many of those issues are compounded with the OS/2 code,
for various reasons.... and that's only ONE factor involved.

Jeffrey S. Kobal
IBM Corporation


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From: willem@horizontes-informatica.com                 18-Sep-99 10:58:02
  To: All                                               18-Sep-99 11:03:05
Subj: Re: ns461 download problem update

From: "Willem Clements" <willem@horizontes-informatica.com>

On Fri, 17 Sep 1999 09:21:50 -0500, Skip Nizinski wrote:

>Various beta users have been very gracious in providing traces to us
>thus far to try to determine what is causing downloads to terminate
>prematurely (without an error indication). Among them, Jim LaLone, Frank
>Schmittroth, Jerry Barrington, and Gene Alexander. I would like to
>publicly thank them all for their assistance,
>
>Thus far we have learned:
>
>   * the problem seems to be timing-sensitive
>   * the Injoy dialer is typically involved
>   * the Injoy port speed setting affects the results
>
>While the above is not necessarily true in all cases, it has been the
>majority of cases.
>
Skip,

For your info, I experience the problem without any dialer.
I connect with a ZyXEL P100IH router to an ISDN line.
I started a download of the same file with both OS/2 netscape and
W98 netscape. The OS/2 download stopped, the W98 download
terminated OK.


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From: donnelly@tampabay.rr.com                          18-Sep-99 11:27:09
  To: All                                               18-Sep-99 11:03:05
Subj: Re: Netscape 416 Beta2 wrecks Zip association...How to revert D'n'D?

From: donnelly@tampabay.rr.com (Buddy Donnelly)

On Sat, 18 Sep 1999 05:27:58, "Jeffrey S. Kobal" 
<murdoctor@ausNOSPAMtin.rr.com> a Úcrit dans un message:

> so we had to choose
> between limiting drag/drop capability or limiting functionality in
> the browser.  We chose to keep the internal browser functionality
> and handle dragging to the WPS ourselves.

If that means you're adding back in the standard SOM stuff I'm thrilled.


> 
> > Someone should speak up to protect OS/2 in this regard.
> 
> Protect OS/2?  From what?  Producing a browser for the OS/2
> platform so that the customers that are funding the continued
> existence of the operating system 

(Pardon my french but if "that are funding" refers to the multi-desk buyers
that IBM has chosen to address themselves to, then screw'em. WE here all 
paid for and committed to an Operating System, fully expecting a respected 
company like IBM to stand behind their half of the transaction. IBM has 
chosen to say "screw you" to us, not the other way around.)

> will be able to utilize current Internet technologies seems to me like the
best 
> way to "protect OS/2"... wouldn't you agree?

No, not completely. 

If the "current Internet technology" means sending news and mail via HTML, 
or, worse, dancing noisy pictures, or attaching those dumb "business cards"
nobody has found a legitimate use for, then why waste time on that? 

I don't think adding in lots of code for purely Netscape bells and whistles
is ever going to make up for the fact we won't have an identical browser to
what a User on another platform has. Without the most common plugins, for 
instance, starting with current Real Audio and Real Media, Shockwave and 
Flash, it's dead meat. Or dynamic fonts, which are showing up on more and 
more commercial websites, and if your Composer doesn't handle them you're 
wasting your time building a Composer for OS/2.


> 
> > It seems to me that Netscape should be improved ... [snip]
> 
> Ok, if you wish to turn this into a Netscape-bashing discussion,
> I'll move right along.  I was attempting to provide potentially
> information to a user that was having a problem, not open up
> the floor for picking apart the entire project.

Sorry for the tone. I don't mean to be attacking anybody's work, and I know
you're having to work inside some pretty ridiculous-looking parameters, 
being in IBM and all. (No offense intended except to the stutified and 
unintellectual corporate culture of IBM.)

> 
> > to the point where it doesn't crash itself, or OS/2.
> 
> Whenever I'm home visiting my parents... before I leave the
> house, my mom always tells me to "drive safely".  Of course,
> this is completely silly advice, since I obviously would want to
> be driving safely anyway.... it's not like I'm going to say, "Oh,
> WOW!  I didn't THINK of that!  Thanks, Mom, I will!"  She does
> it, however, because she cares about my safety.
> 
> On the same token, your advice to us that we produce a
> product that doesn't crash is equally frivolous.  

No, it's not, because if just ONE of the honchos who makes the larger 
decisions reads it and decides that maybe, just maybe, there's a reason to 
expand the job you've been given, and does it, then we're all better off, 
right?

Netscape/2 crashes, and can even cause the hallowed crash "resistant" OS/2 
to crash, or more usually, hang. And building in more functions FIRST 
instead of building OUT the bugs that cause it to step on its own tail is 
wasting a lot of all our time.

A lot of people prefer NS 2.02 because the final version of that doesn't 
cause nearly as much trouble as all the 4.04 versions I've seen. It still 
isn't as good as it should have been.

> Obviously, we
> don't want the browser to crash, and we do what we can to
> ensure that doesn't happen.  And your "reminder" as such
> serves to show that YOU care about the quality of our product
> as well.

Of course.

> 
> However, just getting on the road in the car has some level
> of danger to it... with the dangers increasing with the duration
> and complexity of the drive.  The same is true of developing
> a complex piece of software.  (Yes, I realize I've violated the
> taboo metaphor of computers and cars, and I apologize for
> that.)

I don't know why it would be "taboo" because I thought it fit this very 
well. (And it's nice to correspond with someone whose brain is quick enough
to move sideways and use a metaphor or an analogy to make a point.)



> 
> > We DON'T have a well-programmed browser, and we
> > DON'T have somebody going out and getting plugins for it.
> 
> On the former, I'm sorry you feel that way... 

I'm guessing that you mean you are hoping I don't feel that way about your 
final product release? 

You surely can't think that the current betas are not seriously 
troublesome, can you? I still can't print a page that contains a picture 
without the second page becoming strangely magnified, but I'm assuming that
all this gets cleaned up before the GA drop, or at least you'll take a 
fresh chop at it. 

Although there was a troubling comment here referring to problems with the 
In-Joy dialer that suggested y'all weren't going to do anything to fix that
one because you had some kind of schedule to keep. (I don't want it right, 
I want it right now?)


> on the latter, you
> can take that up with the development community at large.

No. No. A thousand times: No. 

IT IS THE JOB OF IBM to cultivate the plugin developers, not theirs to 
cultivate IBM. And the plugins have become STANDARD on the Internet, so 
you're not going to have Standard Internet Capabilities without them.


Always a pleasure. No offense is ever intended, because your presence here 
can only help us all.


Good luck,

Buddy

Buddy Donnelly
donnelly@tampabay.rr.com


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From: mcbrides@erols.com                                17-Sep-99 23:27:15
  To: All                                               19-Sep-99 03:20:28
Subj: Re: ns461 download problem update

From: mcbrides@erols.com (Jerry McBride)

In article <37E24E7D.2446A19F@us.ibm.com>,
Skip Nizinski <snizinsk@us.ibm.com> wrote:
>Various beta users have been very gracious in providing traces to us
>thus far to try to determine what is causing downloads to terminate
>prematurely (without an error indication). Among them, Jim LaLone, Frank
>Schmittroth, Jerry Barrington, and Gene Alexander. I would like to
>publicly thank them all for their assistance,
>
>Thus far we have learned:
>
>   * the problem seems to be timing-sensitive
>   * the Injoy dialer is typically involved
>   * the Injoy port speed setting affects the results
>
>While the above is not necessarily true in all cases, it has been the
>majority of cases.
>

That's a puzzling statement, Skip. I use the DOIP utility to connect to my ISP
and I have suffered the "partial download" syndrome since the 4.04 code and
now
into beta 2 of 4.61. Toggling the port speed does not help...

>What we have seen in the traces is that the server side of the socket is
>reporting back a return code indicating that the download has completed
>and Communicator sees no error indication, despite the fact that we only
>have a partial file.
>
>We have further engaged our TCP/IP service team to try to get to the
>root cause of this problem.
>
>We will continue pursuing this problem, but it is very unlikely that any
>changes to Communicator will be made before we ship.
>

That, is a darn shame too. I doubt seriously it's even related to Injoy or any
dialer used, as it's ONLY the later versions of NetScape that demonstrate
(with
uncanny precision) the "partial download" problem. IMHO, it's gotta' be in the
NetScape codebase... somewhere...

Thank you, for your time.

--

*******************************************************************************

*            Sometimes, the BEST things in life really ARE free...           
*
*       Get a FREE copy of NetRexx 1.150 for your next java project at:      
*
*                     http://www2.hursley.ibm.com/netrexx                    
*
*******************************************************************************


/----------------------------------------\
| From the desktop of: Jerome D. McBride |
|         mcbrides@erols.com             |
\----------------------------------------/

--

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From: lifedata@xxvol.com                                18-Sep-99 11:24:11
  To: All                                               19-Sep-99 03:20:28
Subj: Re: ns461 download problem update

From: lifedata@xxvol.com

mcbrides@erols.com (Jerry McBride) said:

>That, is a darn shame too. I doubt seriously it's even related to Injoy or
any
>dialer used, as it's ONLY the later versions of NetScape that demonstrate
(with
>uncanny precision) the "partial download" problem. 

I think that's mostly right and a tad wrong.  It is apparently timing.  I do
know Injoy can introduce timing variances, as can others.

At the same time, Netscape should be able to handle them.  WebEx does.

SOMETHING has got to be telling the server to send an "all done" message, and
with my machine it is TOTALLY cured when I slow down the port speed.  There
HAS
to be some connection, even though it doesn't show up on all machines.  If it
IS
TIMING, that can vary some based on hardware, so the "It didn't happen to me"
point doesn't look to me like it changes anything.

Jim L
Remove XX from address to Email
More gun laws will cure the nations ills - just like drug laws do.


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From: warp4@getTOnet.dk                                 18-Sep-99 22:45:16
  To: All                                               19-Sep-99 06:48:22
Subj: Re: ns461 download problem update

From: "Allan Holm" <warp4@getTOnet.dk>

On Fri, 17 Sep 1999 09:21:50 -0500, Skip Nizinski wrote:


>Thus far we have learned:
>
>   * the problem seems to be timing-sensitive
>   * the Injoy dialer is typically involved
>   * the Injoy port speed setting affects the results

I can't see, how this have to do with In-Joy.
Here, I'm using a proxy/cache app on my machine (smartcache) - which 
NS connects through. 
When I download a file, and NS breaks the connection, Smartcache still
continues the transfer to its cache. When I can see on the line-monitor,
that Smartcache has stopped downloading, I can start the transfer from
NS again, and it will then 'download' the hole file (from smartcache),
in about 1 second.

As this is how it goes every time, I don't see how neither In-joy nor
the server can have any faults - as Smartcache _never_ breaks on the
same download.

  Allan.



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From: lifedata@xxvol.com                                18-Sep-99 19:19:18
  To: All                                               19-Sep-99 06:48:22
Subj: Re: ns461 download problem update

From: lifedata@xxvol.com

"Allan Holm" <warp4@getTOnet.dk> said:

>I can't see, how this have to do with In-Joy.

>As this is how it goes every time, I don't see how neither In-joy nor the
>server can have any faults 

The connection is statistical.  I've seen lots of users declare what it
couldn't
be Injoy.  No problem.  No one said it was an Injoy bug - go back and read it. 

It apparently happens most often with Injoy.  That doesn't mean it can not
happen in other situations.  I think it DOES mean that whatever is happening
from one situation to another means they have something in common.  What
specific people experience doesn't change that.  It's similar to the old posts
you see every so often which say, in essence, "I don't have the problem so it
couldn't exist."

You have to look where the stats lead you or you won't find anything to help
fix
Netscape.  Even if, maybe especially if, people say this or that doesn't
happen
on MY system.  Some people don't have any problem with download failure AT
ALL. 
That does NOT mean it doesn't exist - I can assure you.

Jim L
Remove XX from address to Email
More gun laws will cure the nations ills - just like drug laws do.


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From: rsteiner@visi.com                                 18-Sep-99 18:58:07
  To: All                                               19-Sep-99 06:48:23
Subj: Re: Netscape 416 Beta2 wrecks Zip association...How to revert D'n'D?

From: rsteiner@visi.com (Richard Steiner)

Here in comp.os.os2.beta, "Jeffrey S. Kobal" <murdoctor@ausNOSPAMtin.rr.com>
spake unto us, saying:

>Buddy Donnelly wrote:
>
>> WE here all paid for and committed to an Operating
>> System, fully expecting a respected company like
>> IBM to stand behind their half of the transaction.
>
>And providing continuing support through free fixpacks is
>exactly how IBM has been doing that.

You are absolutely correct.  IBM might be making some frustrating moves
in my eyes right now regarding the OS/2 client and its future, but their
support for their products (including OS/2 client) is *extremely* good,
at least in terms of providing code fixes.

There are times when I get really frustrated at IBM.  And then I think
of Microsoft and realize how good we have it (in some ways).

-- 
   -Rich Steiner  >>>--->  rsteiner@visi.com  >>>---> Bloomington, MN
     OS/2 + Linux + BeOS + FreeBSD + Solaris + WinNT4 + Win95 + DOS
      + VMWare + Fusion + vMac + Executor = PC Hobbyist Heaven! :-)
              The Oracle has pondered your question deeply.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mchasson@ibm.net                                  18-Sep-99 20:28:09
  To: All                                               19-Sep-99 06:48:23
Subj: 3175 on os23246.dll in ns451b2

From: mchasson@ibm.net

Not to make too big a thing of this, but I have been seeing this error
lately with 4.61b2 when I open a new browser window calling from the mail
reader.

The application then closes.  CAn I adjust for this???


-- 
----------------------------------------------------
------
Monroe Chasson
mchasson@ibm.net
-----------------------------------------------------------
MR2ICE reg#51 

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From: hamei@pacbell.net                                 19-Sep-99 01:22:15
  To: All                                               19-Sep-99 06:48:23
Subj: Re: Netscape 416 Beta2 wrecks Zip association...How to revert D'n'D?

From: hamei@pacbell.net

In <XcC53oHpvmgE092yn@visi.com>, rsteiner@visi.com (Richard Steiner) writes:
>Here in comp.os.os2.beta, "Jeffrey S. Kobal" <murdoctor@ausNOSPAMtin.rr.com>
>spake unto us, saying:
>
>>Buddy Donnelly wrote:
>>
>>> WE here all paid for and committed to an Operating
>>> System, fully expecting a respected company like
>>> IBM to stand behind their half of the transaction.
>>
>>And providing continuing support through free fixpacks is
>>exactly how IBM has been doing that.
>
>You are absolutely correct.  IBM might be making some frustrating moves
>in my eyes right now regarding the OS/2 client and its future, but their
>support for their products (including OS/2 client) is *extremely* good,
>at least in terms of providing code fixes.


IBM has severe classic schizophrenia, that's the only possible answer . . . .

>
>There are times when I get really frustrated at IBM.  And then I think
>of Microsoft and realize how good we have it (in some ways).
>
>-- 
>   -Rich Steiner  >>>--->  rsteiner@visi.com  >>>---> Bloomington, MN
>     OS/2 + Linux + BeOS + FreeBSD + Solaris + WinNT4 + Win95 + DOS
>      + VMWare + Fusion + vMac + Executor = PC Hobbyist Heaven! :-)
>              The Oracle has pondered your question deeply.


sk†l !

----------------------------------------------------------
H„rad ’ngravv†rd
Windows NT - the Ornithopter of Operating Systems
-----------------------------------------------------------

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From: whonea@codenet.net                                18-Sep-99 20:23:14
  To: All                                               19-Sep-99 06:48:23
Subj: Re: ns461 download problem update

From: whonea@codenet.net (Will Honea)

On Sat, 18 Sep 1999 23:19:36, lifedata@xxvol.com wrote:

> The connection is statistical.  I've seen lots of users declare what it
couldn't
> be Injoy.  No problem.  No one said it was an Injoy bug - go back and read
it. 
> It apparently happens most often with Injoy.  That doesn't mean it can not
> happen in other situations.  I think it DOES mean that whatever is happening
> from one situation to another means they have something in common.  What
> specific people experience doesn't change that.  It's similar to the old
posts
> you see every so often which say, in essence, "I don't have the problem so
it
> couldn't exist."

Which again points out a hole in the reports we see:  Lots of info 
about using Injoy, port rates, etc.  How about some info on the IP 
stack level when you post?  I can hardly eliminate that portion of the
chain bu fiat.

Will Honea <whonea@codenet.net>

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From: jeffos2@mindspring.com                            19-Sep-99 00:25:05
  To: All                                               19-Sep-99 06:48:23
Subj: Re: ns461 download problem update

From: jeffos2@mindspring.com (Jeffery Swagger)

In <Z8vLRdP7nz3N-pn2-c9Zl3eEFCZt3@yourmachine.yourlocaldomain.yourisp>,
donnelly@tampabay.rr.com (Buddy Donnelly) writes:
>On Fri, 17 Sep 1999 14:21:50, Skip Nizinski <snizinsk@us.ibm.com> a ‚crit
>dans un message:
>
>> Various beta users have been very gracious in providing traces to us
>> thus far to try to determine what is causing downloads to terminate
>> prematurely (without an error indication). Among them, Jim LaLone, Frank
>> Schmittroth, Jerry Barrington, and Gene Alexander. I would like to
>> publicly thank them all for their assistance,
>>
>> Thus far we have learned:
>>
>>    * the problem seems to be timing-sensitive
>>    * the Injoy dialer is typically involved
>
>Not surprising, given the possibility that anybody using dialup Internet
>connections is likely to gravitate towards using this superior dialer
>program.

FWIW, I don't use InJoy but instead use PPP.EXE.  I have always had this
problem of premature download termination with all GA levels of Netscape
2.02 and all GA levels of Communicator 4.04.  This is with TCP/IP 4.0 or
4.1.  (I don't have the 4.61 beta).  It's always been intermittent,
unpredictable and non-reproducible.  The "Saving Location" box simply
closes with no indication that a problem occurred.  I always thought
that's just the way Netscape worked.

So, I would suspect it's a long-standing bug in code that's been carried
forward from release to release.  I think you're just seeing InJoy
because that's what the more "sophisticated" people use who are much
more apt to report problems than the typical user.

>
>>
>> We will continue pursuing this problem, but it is very unlikely that any
>> changes to Communicator will be made before we ship.
>
>That sounds sad. Why the rush to ship a buggy product? Wait until y'all get
>it right, is my suggestion. I'm oh so tired of having to work out bugs that
>never should have made it out the door.
>

All non-trivial software has bugs.  If you waited till it was totally
De-Conned you'd never ship.  At some point you just have to cut it lose
and deal with the bugs later.

Now, what might be possible would be to add code to check the original
byte count of the file with the number actually downloaded and put up an
error box if there is a difference.  That way you would at least know
right away that there was a problem and might suffice until the real bug
can be found and fixed.

----
Jeff

   "They use Microsoft Excel to plot their data.  Sometimes they get the
   results they expect, sometimes they don't."
                        From Microsoft TV commercial, 1999.


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From: godfrey@isl.stanford.edu                          19-Sep-99 05:20:02
  To: All                                               19-Sep-99 06:48:23
Subj: Re: ns461 download problem update

From: godfrey@isl.stanford.edu

In <c1.2c.2SDtnz$01z@localhost.mindspring.com>, jeffos2@mindspring.com
(Jeffery Swagger) writes:
>In <Z8vLRdP7nz3N-pn2-c9Zl3eEFCZt3@yourmachine.yourlocaldomain.yourisp>,
donnelly@tampabay.rr.com (Buddy Donnelly) writes:
>>On Fri, 17 Sep 1999 14:21:50, Skip Nizinski <snizinsk@us.ibm.com> a ‚crit
>>dans un message:
>>
>>> Various beta users have been very gracious in providing traces to us
>>> thus far to try to determine what is causing downloads to terminate
>>> prematurely (without an error indication). Among them, Jim LaLone, Frank
>>> Schmittroth, Jerry Barrington, and Gene Alexander. I would like to
>>> publicly thank them all for their assistance,
>>>
>>> Thus far we have learned:
>>>
>>>    * the problem seems to be timing-sensitive
>>>    * the Injoy dialer is typically involved
>>
I doubt if this is accurate since I get premature ftp terminations
using Netscape 4.07-1 on my Linux systems. The frequency of these
terminations is about the same between Linux and OS/2. They only
happen (to me) when using Netscape on a relatively slow interface
(either frame relay or dialup). The frequency seems to be higher if
the slow link is also carrying other traffic.

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From: news@fenrir.demon.co.uk                           18-Sep-99 20:25:12
  To: All                                               19-Sep-99 06:48:23
Subj: Re: ns461 download problem update

From: "Brian Morrison" <news@fenrir.demon.co.uk>

On Sat, 18 Sep 1999 06:08:14 GMT, Jeffrey S. Kobal wrote:

>In
>addition, note that it was 2-3 years between Warp3 and Warp4,
>yet it has not even been 2 years since Warp4 was released

Strange, I have been running Warp4 GA since the last quarter of 1996,
so it is just coming up on 3 years since the release. Warp3 shipped in
late 1994, October I think, so the Warp 3->4 gap was approximately two
years. Before that, OS/2 2.1 went out in mid-1993, and 2.0 in April
1992. The gaps have been lengthening a bit, but a new client could
still appear if IBM management would only realise who its real
supporters are.


-- 
Brian Morrison                                       news@fenrir.demon.co.uk

               to reply, change address from 'news' to 'bdm'

 ...Grim faced, cold as fishwife's fingers, he snatched from the wall
 the sickle-sharp boar tusks he used for defacing Readers' Digest....


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From: murdoctor@ausNOSPAMtin.rr.com                     19-Sep-99 05:47:01
  To: All                                               19-Sep-99 06:48:23
Subj: Re: 3175 on os23246.dll in ns451b2

From: "Jeffrey S. Kobal" <murdoctor@ausNOSPAMtin.rr.com>

mchasson@ibm.net wrote:

> Not to make too big a thing of this, but I have been seeing this error
> lately with 4.61b2 when I open a new browser window calling from the mail
> reader.
>
> The application then closes.  CAn I adjust for this???

Would you mind posting the complete exception information
("show register information") and exactly what you do to
see the problem occur?

Jeffrey S. Kobal
IBM Corporation
Netscape Communicator for OS/2 - Development Team


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From: tvoltagg@home.com                                 19-Sep-99 13:21:01
  To: All                                               19-Sep-99 18:48:06
Subj: Need help in Netscape beta2 to access secure sites and FTP

From: tvoltagg@home.com

Can anyone help me configure TCP/IP 4.1 for use as a "client" which
is connected in a Peer network to a Win95b "server" which has a cable
modem and Internet Gate on it?  I'm having particular difficulty getting the
"client" to access secure web sites in Netscape 4.61 Beta 2 and to Ftp.
In particular, the Socks Server, Hostname and Routing tabs are a mystery to
me.  Otherwise everything else works OK.
Particulars:
"Server" - Win95b - 2 NICS  - Internet Gate - Address 192.168.0.2
"Client" - Warp 4 - FP11 -  TCP/IP 4.1 - Address 192.168.0.1
Address of Provider:
IP Address: 24.7.223.2
Gateway:    24.7.223.1
Primary DNS: 24.2.212.12
Secondary DNS: 24.2.212.14
DNS Name: cg950645-a 
Any help would be appreciated.

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From: jbrock@panix.com                                  19-Sep-99 12:05:27
  To: All                                               19-Sep-99 18:48:07
Subj: Re: ns461 download problem update

From: jbrock@panix.com (John Brock)

In article <37E48FB8.45E67AD4@ausNOSPAMtin.rr.com>,
Jeffrey S. Kobal <murdoctor@ausNOSPAMtin.rr.com> wrote:
>Brian Morrison wrote:
>> On Sat, 18 Sep 1999 06:08:14 GMT, Jeffrey S. Kobal wrote:

>> >In
>> >addition, note that it was 2-3 years between Warp3 and Warp4,
>> >yet it has not even been 2 years since Warp4 was released

>> Strange, I have been running Warp4 GA since the last quarter of 1996,
>> so it is just coming up on 3 years since the release.

>I stand corrected.  The international versions of Warp4 weren't
>released until early 1997, so that's what I was thinking about
>(since I personally spent a lot of time on those).  Still, 3 years
>isn't that much time to be panicking about it now, especially
>with Aurora and two releases of WSOD in between.

I think that one of the reasons that people are panicking is what the
lack of a new OS/2 client says about IBM's *intentions*.  Producing a
new client would be relatively cheap and easy, since it would simply be
a stripped down version of the server.  It would basically be free
money (although perhaps not a whole lot).  The fact that IBM did not
announce a new client along with the new server suggests rather
strongly that they would actually prefer that people like me (SOHO
users) *not* use OS/2.  (And this is *before* you you factor in all the
interviews with IBM executives who say there will be no new client, and
all the people claiming inside information who say the same thing).

The idea that the vendor of the most fundamental piece of software on
your system -- the OS -- wants you to stop using that software is kind
of discouraging, don't you think?
-- 
John Brock
jbrock@panix.com

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From: jkovacs@ibm.net                                   19-Sep-99 17:58:20
  To: All                                               19-Sep-99 18:48:07
Subj: Re: ns461 download problem update

From: jkovacs@ibm.net   (Joe Kovacs)

In <7s31l2$adp$1@panix.com>, jbrock@panix.com (John Brock) writes:
>In article <37E48FB8.45E67AD4@ausNOSPAMtin.rr.com>,
>Jeffrey S. Kobal <murdoctor@ausNOSPAMtin.rr.com> wrote:
>>Brian Morrison wrote:
>>> On Sat, 18 Sep 1999 06:08:14 GMT, Jeffrey S. Kobal wrote:

>I think that one of the reasons that people are panicking 

Sorry, people aren't panicking.

>is what the
>lack of a new OS/2 client says about IBM's *intentions*.  

There is no lack of a new OS/2 client.

There is nothing said about IBM's intentions.

> The fact that IBM did not
>announce a new client along with the new server 

There is no such thing as IBM announcing a client with a 
server.  Never have, never will.

>suggests rather
>strongly 

There is no such suggestion.

>that they would actually prefer that people like me (SOHO
>users) *not* use OS/2.  

No one and nothing suggests this, not even close.

(And this is *before* you you factor in all the
>interviews with IBM executives who say there will be no new client

There were no interviews with IBM executives.

IBM executives did not say there will be no new client.

>The idea that the vendor of the most fundamental piece of
>software on your system -- the OS -- wants you to stop using
>that software

IBM wants me to continue to use OS/2.

>is kind of discouraging

There is no discouragement and everyone is upbeat.

>don't you think?

Dacoit, take your lies and fallacies to a debate newsgroup.


Joe Kovacs
Guelph Ontario Canada


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From: esko.kauppinen@ibm.net                            19-Sep-99 21:10:18
  To: All                                               19-Sep-99 18:48:07
Subj: Re: ns461 download problem update

From: "Esko Kauppinen" <esko.kauppinen@ibm.net>

Could being connected to a network be a common factor?

I remember being suffering of the problem at home being
connected to my "home network".

But now that I have been abroad for several months and
using my stand alone laptop, not a single failure during
downloads.

Just my 0,17 euros.... 


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From: lifedata@xxvol.com                                19-Sep-99 15:16:23
  To: All                                               20-Sep-99 00:54:19
Subj: Re: ns461 download problem update

From: lifedata@xxvol.com

jkovacs@ibm.net   (Joe Kovacs) said:

>There is no lack of a new OS/2 client.

>There is nothing said about IBM's intentions.

Okay, what planet are you really from? <g>

Jim L
Remove XX from address to Email
More gun laws will cure the nations ills - just like drug laws do.


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From: murdoctor@ausNOSPAMtin.rr.com                     19-Sep-99 07:26:28
  To: All                                               20-Sep-99 00:54:19
Subj: Re: ns461 download problem update

From: "Jeffrey S. Kobal" <murdoctor@ausNOSPAMtin.rr.com>

Brian Morrison wrote:

> On Sat, 18 Sep 1999 06:08:14 GMT, Jeffrey S. Kobal wrote:
>
> >In
> >addition, note that it was 2-3 years between Warp3 and Warp4,
> >yet it has not even been 2 years since Warp4 was released
>
> Strange, I have been running Warp4 GA since the last quarter of 1996,
> so it is just coming up on 3 years since the release.

I stand corrected.  The international versions of Warp4 weren't
released until early 1997, so that's what I was thinking about
(since I personally spent a lot of time on those).  Still, 3 years
isn't that much time to be panicking about it now, especially
with Aurora and two releases of WSOD in between.

Jeffrey S. Kobal
IBM Corporation


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From: oliver.rick@oor.de                                19-Sep-99 19:29:28
  To: All                                               20-Sep-99 00:54:19
Subj: No new OS/2 client 

From: oliver.rick@oor.de (Oliver Rick)

On Sat, 18 Sep 1999 Jeffrey S. Kobal wrote:

> [...] In addition, note that it was 2-3 years between Warp3 and Warp4,

Exactly 2 years (late Q3/94).

> yet it has not even been 2 years since Warp4 was released,

Exactly 3 years now (late Q3/96).

> so why all the hubbub for a new client release, especially with the
> whole Year 2000 stuff looming over right now?

There is still no *Y2K ready* OS/2 *client* that works *out of the box*.

We could have expected a Manufacturers Refresh (maybe Warp 4.1) with
FixPak level 10 including 2 years old TCP/IP 4.1 with the 4.2 stack (MPTS
5.4), USB support, updated printer drivers, bidi LPT driver, new GRADD,
Peer/LAN Distance fixes, new SVAgent/Netware Client, Communicator 4.04,
Java 1.1.7 at least.

Yes I know, NT 4 is 3 years old now as well.

   /Olli/
--
IBM OS/2 Warp Update Summary:
http://www.warpupdates.de/english/warpupdates.html

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From: pspmikek@yahoo.com                                19-Sep-99 23:35:06
  To: All                                               20-Sep-99 00:54:19
Subj: Re: ns461 download problem update

From: Michael Kaply <pspmikek@yahoo.com>


lifedata@xxvol.com wrote:

> At the same time, Netscape should be able to handle them.  WebEx does.

I have to comment on this one.

We have the Web Explorer source code. We have looked a the web explorer source 
code.

The code is EXACTLY the same as Netscape for handling downloads.

The TCP/IP folks have acknowledged that there are serial TCP/IP problems in
4.0/4.1.

They (the problems) are be investigated.

Mike Kaply

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From: pspmikek@yahoo.com                                20-Sep-99 03:35:06
  To: All                                               20-Sep-99 03:38:12
Subj: Re: No new OS/2 client 

From: Michael Kaply <pspmikek@yahoo.com>


godfrey@isl.stanford.edu wrote:

> As a user of WSEB as server and client (replacing SMP server and
> WARP 4, respectively) it is obvious that the only step required for
> IBM to ship a "WARP 4.5 Client" is to relabel the WSEB CD. WSEB
> installs on a Pentium 100 with 64MB RAM, including TCP/IP, etc.
> just as WARP 4 did. And, it runs as well as WARP 4+FP10. The big
> difference is that it installs "out of the box." (Well, almost --
> NFS does not work.)

You guys have such a one-sided view of software development.

You are forgetting:

rewriting install to not have server parts.

retesting ENTIRE product.

repackaging entire product

Anyone who says "just take the server box and relabel it as a client" has NO
idea.

It's not just a marketing issue.

Mike Kaply
IBM

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From: whonea@codenet.net                                20-Sep-99 00:56:05
  To: All                                               20-Sep-99 05:19:28
Subj: Re: No new OS/2 client 

From: whonea@codenet.net (Will Honea)

On Mon, 20 Sep 1999 03:35:12, Michael Kaply <pspmikek@yahoo.com> 
wrote:

> 
> 
> godfrey@isl.stanford.edu wrote:
> 
> > As a user of WSEB as server and client (replacing SMP server and
> > WARP 4, respectively) it is obvious that the only step required for
> > IBM to ship a "WARP 4.5 Client" is to relabel the WSEB CD. WSEB
> > installs on a Pentium 100 with 64MB RAM, including TCP/IP, etc.
> > just as WARP 4 did. And, it runs as well as WARP 4+FP10. The big
> > difference is that it installs "out of the box." (Well, almost --
> > NFS does not work.)
> 
> You guys have such a one-sided view of software development.
> 
> You are forgetting:
> 
> rewriting install to not have server parts.
> 
> retesting ENTIRE product.
> 
> repackaging entire product
> 
> Anyone who says "just take the server box and relabel it as a client" has NO 
idea.
> 
> It's not just a marketing issue.
> 
> Mike Kaply
> IBM

Chuckle... The voice of reason and experience - you can tell who has 
'been there, done that'.  If memory serves me, the install procedure 
has been the topic of many long threads but no one has stepped forward
with a replacement install script.  Re-packaging the original install 
CD to incorporate the current fixpak level is far simpler but even 
that has still not been done - by IBM or anyone else.  Much as I would
like to see even that first step, I'm not about to step up to the task
even if IBM would bless the end result.

Not an impossible task, but you point out one of the 'simple' steps 
that would require an investment of what, a good man-year to do?


Will Honea <whonea@codenet.net>

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From: bogus.due2UCE@atlantic.net                        19-Sep-99 22:48:22
  To: All                                               20-Sep-99 14:52:05
Subj: Re: ns461 download problem update

From: Felix Miata <bogus.due2UCE@atlantic.net>

Michael Kaply wrote:
 
> lifedata@xxvol.com wrote:
 
> > At the same time, Netscape should be able to handle them.  WebEx does.
 
> I have to comment on this one.
 
> We have the Web Explorer source code. We have looked a the web explorer
source code.
 
> The code is EXACTLY the same as Netscape for handling downloads.
 
> The TCP/IP folks have acknowledged that there are serial TCP/IP problems in
4.0/4.1.
 
> They (the problems) are be investigated.

Maybe this would explain the page loading halt prior to the "done"
status being displayed on all OS/2 Netscape versions from 2.02 up.
-- 
A man who lacks judgment derides his neighbor, but a man of
understanding holds his tongue.                Proverbs 11:12 NKJV

 Team OS/2

Felix Miata  ***  http://mrmazda.members.atlantic.net

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From: veit@simi.gmd.de                                  20-Sep-99 14:16:18
  To: All                                               20-Sep-99 14:52:05
Subj: Re: No new OS/2 client 

From: veit@simi.gmd.de (Holger Veit)

On Mon, 20 Sep 1999 12:28:44 GMT, Mooo <zayne@omen.com.au> wrote:
>oliver.rick@oor.de (Oliver Rick) wrote:
>
>>Yes I know, NT 4 is 3 years old now as well.
>
>But has had several manufacturing refreshes in that time.  New copies
>of NT are routinely shipped with whatever the latest fixpack is
>already applied.

The small detail is that M$ has regularly modified the distribution
disks of WinXX multiple times and shipped changed versions without
mentioning. This does not have anything to do with service packs which,
likewise to fixpacks under OS/2, you have to get in addition.
Since such hidden new versions are not documented (in contrast to
OS/2's fixpacks which list every bug fixed), it is almost impossible to
be sure what you get, even if you buy a new box. You may encounter a
stone old version off the shelfs.

>This alone would be enough for many users and businesses.  Fully
>fixpacked, Warp4 is able to easily hold its own.  
>
>The trouble is that applying multitudes of fixes requires a great deal
>of time.  Time is money, and OEM's, resellers have to add this cost to
>all roll outs they do, this makes OS/2 even more expensive than it
>already is (from the direct sales point of view, its still a lot
>cheaper to run from a TCO point of view).

This is no issue for companies. Provide an installation server which is
recommended for more than 5 hosts, and let the clients update themselves.
This is well established stuff for years for OS/2 - for NT, you are
forced to do system management by Nike.

Holger

-- 
Signature fault - code dumbed

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From: lifedata@xxvol.com                                20-Sep-99 17:45:27
  To: All                                               20-Sep-99 20:06:16
Subj: Re: ns461 download problem update

From: lifedata@xxvol.com

jeffos2@mindspring.com (Jeffery Swagger) said:

>Interesting.  I don't recall having the problem with Webx, but have with
>Netscape 2.02 and 4.04.  Could have had it with Webx and just don't remember. 


FWIW, before I got a work around I always used WebEx to download stuff 4.x
wouldn't.  Never failed once.

Jim L
Remove XX from address to Email
More gun laws will cure the nations ills - just like drug laws do.


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From: lifedata@xxvol.com                                20-Sep-99 12:45:23
  To: All                                               20-Sep-99 21:25:21
Subj: Re: No new OS/2 client 

From: lifedata@xxvol.com

whonea@codenet.net (Will Honea) said:

>CD to incorporate the current fixpak level is far simpler but even  that has
>still not been done - by IBM or anyone else.  Much as I would like to see
even
>that first step, I'm not about to step up to the task even if IBM would bless
>the end result.

>Not an impossible task, but you point out one of the 'simple' steps  that
would
>require an investment of what, a good man-year to do?

So, since they won't do it, in essence we ALL have to.

Jim L
Remove XX from address to Email
More gun laws will cure the nations ills - just like drug laws do.


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From: lifedata@xxvol.com                                20-Sep-99 12:52:03
  To: All                                               20-Sep-99 21:25:21
Subj: Re: ns461 download problem update

From: lifedata@xxvol.com

Felix Miata <bogus.due2UCE@atlantic.net> said:
>> The TCP/IP folks have acknowledged that there are serial TCP/IP problems in 
4.0/4.1.
> 
>> They (the problems) are be investigated.

>Maybe this would explain the page loading halt prior to the "done" status
being
>displayed on all OS/2 Netscape versions from 2.02 up.

I have discovered that the same thing that fixes my download failures also
fixes
the page load halt.

Jim L
Remove XX from address to Email
More gun laws will cure the nations ills - just like drug laws do.


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From: jeffos2@mindspring.com                            20-Sep-99 17:23:07
  To: All                                               20-Sep-99 21:25:22
Subj: Re: ns461 download problem update

From: jeffos2@mindspring.com (Jeffery Swagger)

In <37E572DA.C654E7E2@yahoo.com>, Michael Kaply <pspmikek@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>
>lifedata@xxvol.com wrote:
>
>> At the same time, Netscape should be able to handle them.  WebEx does.
>
>I have to comment on this one.
>
>We have the Web Explorer source code. We have looked a the web explorer
source code.
>
>The code is EXACTLY the same as Netscape for handling downloads.
>
>The TCP/IP folks have acknowledged that there are serial TCP/IP problems in
4.0/4.1.
>
>They (the problems) are be investigated.
>
>Mike Kaply
>

Interesting.  I don't recall having the problem with Webx, but have with
Netscape 2.02 and 4.04.  Could have had it with Webx and just don't
remember.  Been a long time since I used it.  In any case I have always
used PPP.EXE with both TCP/IP 4.0 and 4.1.  Not InJoy or anything else.

Another thing occurs to me.  Up until a month ago I was using a badly
overloaded 24M 486-DX266.  Since I upgraded to a 128M K6-III 400 I
haven't seen the problem.  So perhaps it might be a system load related
problem.

----
Jeff

   The difference between Involvement and Commitment can be illustrated
   by a breakfast of ham and eggs.  The chicken was involved; the pig
   was committed.

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From: zayne@omen.com.au                                 20-Sep-99 17:17:24
  To: All                                               20-Sep-99 21:25:22
Subj: Re: No new OS/2 client 

From: zayne@omen.com.au (Mooo)

veit@simi.gmd.de (Holger Veit) wrote:

>>The trouble is that applying multitudes of fixes requires a great deal
>>of time.  Time is money, and OEM's, resellers have to add this cost to
>>all roll outs they do, this makes OS/2 even more expensive than it
>>already is (from the direct sales point of view, its still a lot
>>cheaper to run from a TCO point of view).
>
>This is no issue for companies. Provide an installation server which is
>recommended for more than 5 hosts, and let the clients update themselves.
>This is well established stuff for years for OS/2 - for NT, you are
>forced to do system management by Nike.

Hmm, yes you are right of course.  I was talking and showing my
ignorance.  I've had a decent go at tackling this stuff quite a few
times.  Does it -really- have to be so darn complex?  heh  But, of
course, its a do once save a helluva lot of time later type affair.

I should look closer into this type of solution.

Craig

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From: godfrey@isl.stanford.edu                          21-Sep-99 01:14:27
  To: All                                               21-Sep-99 02:02:03
Subj: Re: No new OS/2 client 

From: godfrey@isl.stanford.edu      (Michael Godfrey)

In <JxX2tWiP5BNp-pn2-0JinWSWr0y0t@anon.none.net>, whonea@codenet.net (Will
Honea) writes:
>On Mon, 20 Sep 1999 03:35:12, Michael Kaply <pspmikek@yahoo.com> 
>wrote:
>
>> 
>> 
>> godfrey@isl.stanford.edu wrote:
>> 
>> > As a user of WSEB as server and client (replacing SMP server and
>> > WARP 4, respectively) it is obvious that the only step required for
>> > IBM to ship a "WARP 4.5 Client" is to relabel the WSEB CD. WSEB
>> > installs on a Pentium 100 with 64MB RAM, including TCP/IP, etc.
>> > just as WARP 4 did. And, it runs as well as WARP 4+FP10. The big
>> > difference is that it installs "out of the box." (Well, almost --
>> > NFS does not work.)
>> 
>> You guys have such a one-sided view of software development.
>> 
>> You are forgetting:
>> 
>> rewriting install to not have server parts.
>> 
>> retesting ENTIRE product.
>> 
>> repackaging entire product
>> 
>> Anyone who says "just take the server box and relabel it as a client" has
NO idea.
>> 
>> It's not just a marketing issue.
>> 
>> Mike Kaply
>> IBM
>
>Chuckle... The voice of reason and experience - you can tell who has 
>'been there, done that'.  If memory serves me, the install procedure 
>has been the topic of many long threads but no one has stepped forward
>with a replacement install script.  Re-packaging the original install 
>CD to incorporate the current fixpak level is far simpler but even 
>that has still not been done - by IBM or anyone else.  Much as I would
>like to see even that first step, I'm not about to step up to the task
>even if IBM would bless the end result.
>
>Not an impossible task, but you point out one of the 'simple' steps 
>that would require an investment of what, a good man-year to do?
>
>
>Will Honea <whonea@codenet.net>

You folks missed the first words of my comment: as a user.



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From: sma.spam-not@rtd.com                              21-Sep-99 03:37:00
  To: All                                               21-Sep-99 02:02:04
Subj: Re: HPFS386, The Reality...

From: James Moe <sma.spam-not@rtd.com>


Anonymous wrote:
> 
> Installing HPFS386 into a Warp v4 client makes your system FASTER!.  If
> you think, this hurts IBM, think again.  The reason IBM does'nt include
> HPFS386 into Warp v4 is because MS charges HUGE royalties for EACH copy
> of HPFS386!.  Therefore, IBM only includes it with Warp Server.
> 

    Beware!
    HPFS386 is not, repeat, NOT qualified to operate with warp 4
(Verified by IBM experts). As I discovered. Yes, it is significantly
faster than HPFS.
    If you are not using Peer networking, you will likely never have a
problem. If you do, your system is likely to be thoroughly trashed by a
system crash induced by HPFS386. It takes out large chunks of the
directory structure when it goes down. I could find no way to recover
(other than from backups).


-- 

sma at rtd dot com
Remove ".spam-not" for email

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From: bogus.due2UCE@atlantic.net                        20-Sep-99 21:13:26
  To: All                                               21-Sep-99 03:35:03
Subj: Re: ns461 download problem update

From: Felix Miata <bogus.due2UCE@atlantic.net>

lifedata@xxvol.com wrote:
 
> Felix Miata <bogus.due2UCE@atlantic.net> said:
> >> The TCP/IP folks have acknowledged that there are serial TCP/IP problems
in 4.0/4.1.

> >> They (the problems) are be investigated.

> >Maybe this would explain the page loading halt prior to the "done" status
being
> >displayed on all OS/2 Netscape versions from 2.02 up.

> I have discovered that the same thing that fixes my download failures also
fixes
> the page load halt.

Which is?
-- 
A man who lacks judgment derides his neighbor, but a man of
understanding holds his tongue.                Proverbs 11:12 NKJV

 Team OS/2

Felix Miata  ***  http://mrmazda.members.atlantic.net

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From: tomlins@cam.org                                   21-Sep-99 11:26:09
  To: All                                               21-Sep-99 10:41:07
Subj: Re: No new OS/2 client 

From: tomlins@cam.org

In <37E5AB18.535A096A@yahoo.com>, Michael Kaply <pspmikek@yahoo.com> writes:

>You guys have such a one-sided view of software development.
>
>You are forgetting:
>
>rewriting install to not have server parts.
>
>retesting ENTIRE product.
>
>repackaging entire product
>
>Anyone who says "just take the server box and relabel it as a client" has NO
idea.

Thought this was basicly what MS did with NT...

>It's not just a marketing issue.

I would however settle for a Manufacturing refresh at the latest FP(s) and
other
Software upgraded to current levels.  Would also be nice to have the latest
kernel.  Alternatly sell me the server product (for home use) at a reasonable
price, with informal support over the net.  Note I payed $300 for warp. 
Another
$300 would not be unreasonable.  Note that disabling all server functions
would
NOT be acceptable - I use my W4 in a peer to peer net...







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From: lifedata@xxvol.com                                21-Sep-99 10:26:17
  To: All                                               21-Sep-99 17:28:11
Subj: Re: ns461 download problem update

From: lifedata@xxvol.com

Felix Miata <bogus.due2UCE@atlantic.net> said:
>> >> The TCP/IP folks have acknowledged that there are serial TCP/IP problems 
in 4.0/4.1.

>> >> They (the problems) are be investigated.

>> >Maybe this would explain the page loading halt prior to the "done" status
being
>> >displayed on all OS/2 Netscape versions from 2.02 up.

>> I have discovered that the same thing that fixes my download failures also
fixes
>> the page load halt.

>Which is?

Lowering the port speed.  Doesn't help everybody.  Running at 115K port speed
I
NEVER got a large download to finish.  Running at 57K it ALWAYS finished.

For all that, I have downloaded two large files with the GA at 115K - no
problem.  Obviously not everybody get the same results.  This is why I still
think it is some kind of timing issue.  When I was running one of IBM's tracer
versions of 4.61 b2 I had the same thing - 6 or 7 good, large downloads.  They
changed the tracer code and I started getting all failures again.  Go figure.

Jim L
Remove XX from address to Email
More gun laws will cure the nations ills - just like drug laws do.


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From: doug.bissett"at"ibm.net                           21-Sep-99 18:48:03
  To: All                                               21-Sep-99 17:28:12
Subj: Re: ns461 download problem update

From: doug.bissett"at"ibm.net (Doug Bissett)

On Tue, 21 Sep 1999 14:26:34, lifedata@xxvol.com wrote:

> Lowering the port speed.  Doesn't help everybody.  Running at 115K port
speed I
> NEVER got a large download to finish.  Running at 57K it ALWAYS finished.
> 

Are you using the COM.SYS, as supplied with OS/2 (and/or fix packs)? 
Or, are you using Ray Gwinn's SIO driver?

I don't see very many download problems (I always run at 115K) with 
the SIO driver.

Hope this helps...
******************************
From the PC of Doug Bissett
doug.bissett at ibm.net
The " at " must be changed to "@"
******************************

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From: jscott@csolve.net                                 21-Sep-99 19:51:10
  To: All                                               21-Sep-99 17:28:12
Subj: Beta 3

From: JohnS <jscott@csolve.net>

	
Nice cleanup job on Netscape 461ga.  Drag now appears to work and
NS46drag no longer hangs
my machine.

But (there always is one eh) some page loading is still painfully slow
when compared to
NS202.
http://www.sun.com/products-n-solutions/;$sessionid$VAMZKJQABPMM3AMUVFZE5YQ

is an excellent example. NS202 loads it consistantly under 15 seconds
(48,000 line speed).
461GA pegs the activity monitor and takes 120 seconds to load the same
page consistantly.

Is it just me?

Johns

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From: oliver.rick@oor.de                                20-Sep-99 22:49:11
  To: All                                               22-Sep-99 04:29:01
Subj: WebEx cource code 

From: oliver.rick@oor.de (Oliver Rick)

On Sun, 19 Sep 1999 Michael Kaply wrote:

> We have the Web Explorer source code. We have looked a the web explorer
> source code.

Do you think that IBM could release it to the public?

   /Olli/
--
IBM OS/2 Warp Update Summary:
http://www.warpupdates.de/english/warpupdates.html

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From: donnelly@tampabay.rr.com                          21-Sep-99 20:53:05
  To: All                                               22-Sep-99 04:29:01
Subj: Re: Beta 3

From: donnelly@tampabay.rr.com (Buddy Donnelly)

On Tue, 21 Sep 1999 19:51:20, JohnS <jscott@csolve.net> a Úcrit dans un 
message:

> 	
> Nice cleanup job on Netscape 461ga.  Drag now appears to work and
> NS46drag no longer hangs
> my machine.
> 
> But (there always is one eh) some page loading is still painfully slow
> when compared to
> NS202.
> http://www.sun.com/products-n-solutions/;$sessionid$VAMZKJQABPMM3AMUVFZE5YQ
> 
> is an excellent example. NS202 loads it consistantly under 15 seconds
> (48,000 line speed).
> 461GA pegs the activity monitor and takes 120 seconds to load the same
> page consistantly.
> 
> Is it just me?

It might just be settings you're using right now. That URL loads to "Done" 
in about your 15-20 seconds here. I do have SmartCache running but I don't 
see that it is blocking anything, and I don't have any www.sun.com elements
caches.

By the way, I do see the Ctrl-Alt-T popup is now working. I don't see much 
mention of it here, but this is a handy tool for displaying the status of 
all the connections in Netscape, as well as dragging off (via DragText) the
various URLs being used.


Good luck,

Buddy

Buddy Donnelly
donnelly@tampabay.rr.com


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From: jscott@csolve.net                                 22-Sep-99 01:02:18
  To: All                                               22-Sep-99 04:29:01
Subj: Re: Beta 3

From: JohnS <jscott@csolve.net>

Thanks for enlightening me regarding the CTL ALT T.

Tried that site "from scratch". Still over a minute. 
There is a strange thing in the CTL ALT T display, I think.  The same
gif was using
3 of the 4 available sockets to download. 
Is there anywhere that one can get an explaination of that display?
URL:http://www.sun.com/pics/dot.gif
sock: 494  con_sock:-1 protocol: 4
URL:http://www.sun.com/pics/dot.gif
sock: 495  con_sock:-1 protocol: 4
URL:http://www.sun.com/pics/dot.gif
sock: 496  con_sock:-1 protocol: 4
TNX


Buddy Donnelly wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 21 Sep 1999 19:51:20, JohnS <jscott@csolve.net> a ÿcrit dans un
> message:
> 
> >
> > Nice cleanup job on Netscape 461ga.  Drag now appears to work and
> > NS46drag no longer hangs
> > my machine.
> >
> > But (there always is one eh) some page loading is still painfully slow
> > when compared to
> > NS202.
> >
http://www.sun.com/products-n-solutions/;$sessionid$VAMZKJQABPMM3AMUVFZE5YQ
> >
> > is an excellent example. NS202 loads it consistantly under 15 seconds
> > (48,000 line speed).
> > 461GA pegs the activity monitor and takes 120 seconds to load the same
> > page consistantly.
> >
> > Is it just me?
> 
> It might just be settings you're using right now. That URL loads to "Done"
> in about your 15-20 seconds here. I do have SmartCache running but I don't
> see that it is blocking anything, and I don't have any www.sun.com elements
> caches.
> 
> By the way, I do see the Ctrl-Alt-T popup is now working. I don't see much
> mention of it here, but this is a handy tool for displaying the status of
> all the connections in Netscape, as well as dragging off (via DragText) the
> various URLs being used.
> 
> Good luck,
> 
> Buddy
> 
> Buddy Donnelly
> donnelly@tampabay.rr.com

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From: bluewarp@yahoo.com                                22-Sep-99 00:12:11
  To: All                                               22-Sep-99 04:29:01
Subj: w/ drag'n'drop back, I am sooooo happy

From: "bluewarp" <bluewarp@yahoo.com>

Thank god (in this case I mean the netscape/2 team) for bringing back the
drag'n'drop.  For the last year I have repeatedly tried to drag things from
netscape and of course it didn't work.   W/ the ga 461, life and the internet
have returned to norml.  

So a HUGE thanks for bringing this feature back.  It had been so long since I
had drug a page or a link off, that I almost forgot and thought I was running
Windoze (w/out the traps of course <g>)

regards,

Jim


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From: dtander@agts.net                                  22-Sep-99 16:06:16
  To: All                                               23-Sep-99 04:15:25
Subj: Re: w/ drag'n'drop back, I am sooooo happy

From: dtander@agts.net (David T. Anderson)

On Wed, 22 Sep 1999 04:12:22, "bluewarp" <bluewarp@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Thank god (in this case I mean the netscape/2 team) for bringing back the
> drag'n'drop.  For the last year I have repeatedly tried to drag things from
> netscape and of course it didn't work.   W/ the ga 461, life and the
internet
> have returned to norml.  

The new drag and drop process seems to have solved the zipfile 
association problem I was having, and that's darned good.

However -- I note that I still can't d'n'd  highlighted text off 
NS461...and that's something I miss.  Also, I happened to be doing a 
bit of surfing with good ol' WebExplorer the other day and happened to
drag an image to the desktop...and noticed that the image file was 
automatically iconized with the image when I dropped it....a feature I
like a lot.

This is not to take away from the well-deserved praise the 
IBM-Netscape team is getting for having done a great job...only to 
point out that they still have worlds left to conquer.

David T. Anderson
Calgary, Alberta
http://www.agt.net/public/dtander/

Using ProNews/2 for OS/2 Warp

**NOSPAM**  To email me, remove the 's' from my address...

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From: dtander@agts.net                                  23-Sep-99 02:38:01
  To: All                                               23-Sep-99 06:08:14
Subj: Re: w/ drag'n'drop back, I am sooooo happy

From: dtander@agts.net (David T. Anderson)

On Wed, 22 Sep 1999 15:39:33, Michael Kaply <mkaply@NOSPAMus.ibm.com> 
wrote:

> 
> 
> "David T. Anderson" wrote:
> 
> > However -- I note that I still can't d'n'd  highlighted text off
> > NS461...and that's something I miss.
> 
> Can you be more specific? Where are you trying to drag this text to?
> 
> You can drag highlighted text to the composer.

I meant dragging chunks of text from the browser to the Desktop...   
Is this one of those inside-the-app vs. outside-the-app compromises 
you had to make?  It's not a big deal since I can do it easily enough 
via cut'n'paste...it's just so....Windows, y'know?

David T. Anderson
Calgary, Alberta
http://www.agt.net/public/dtander/

Using ProNews/2 for OS/2 Warp

**NOSPAM**  To email me, remove the 's' from my address...

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From: asmirnov@mid.ru                                   23-Sep-99 15:52:16
  To: All                                               23-Sep-99 20:16:01
Subj: SysInfo/2 Project - Gamma 3 (Need beta testers)

From: Alexey Smirnov <asmirnov@mid.ru>

Dear friends!
    I am just upload into Hobbes my new SysInfo/2 tool - a PM self-made
clone of Symantec NU for Win 95/NT SystemInfo tool. The archive name is
sysinfo003.zip. It contain not only my tool, but new THESEUS0.DLL and
THESEUS2.SYS that can work with "Aurora".
    Please, I ask you to take part in beta testing of the result of my
hard work... ;-))

Best regards, Alexey Smirnov.

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From: mkaply@NOSPAMus.ibm.com                           23-Sep-99 11:10:26
  To: All                                               23-Sep-99 20:16:01
Subj: Re: w/ drag'n'drop back, I am sooooo happy

From: Michael Kaply <mkaply@NOSPAMus.ibm.com>

Yep, it's an internal external thing.

Hopefully in the future we can get some better stuff for d and d.

Mike Kaply
IBM

"David T. Anderson" wrote:

>I meant dragging chunks of text from the browser to the Desktop...
>Is this one of those inside-the-app vs. outside-the-app compromises
>you had to make?  It's not a big deal since I can do it easily enough
>via cut'n'paste...it's just so....Windows, y'know?

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From: nospam_ktk@netlabs.org                            23-Sep-99 18:53:22
  To: All                                               24-Sep-99 04:26:02
Subj: Re: SysInfo/2 Project - Gamma 3 (Need beta testers)

From: "Adrian Gschwend" <nospam_ktk@netlabs.org>

On Thu, 23 Sep 1999 15:52:32 +0400, Alexey Smirnov wrote:

>sysinfo003.zip. It contain not only my tool, but new THESEUS0.DLL and
>THESEUS2.SYS that can work with "Aurora".
>    Please, I ask you to take part in beta testing of the result of my
>hard work... ;-))

Wow, how have you done this? I thought THESEUS does not work anymore with
Aurora!

cu

Adrian


---
Adrian Gschwend
@ OS/2 Netlabs

ICQ: 22419590
ktk@netlabs.org
-------
The OS/2 OpenSource Project:
http://www.netlabs.org


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From: joop.wassenburg@hetnet.nl                         23-Sep-99 21:58:25
  To: All                                               24-Sep-99 04:26:03
Subj: Re: w/ drag'n'drop back, I am sooooo happy

From: "jca wassenburg" <joop.wassenburg@hetnet.nl>

bluewarp <bluewarp@yahoo.com> schreef in berichtnieuws
oyhrjneclnubbpbz.fig10m0.pminews@news.rdu.bellsouth.net...
> Thank god (in this case I mean the netscape/2 team) for bringing back the
> drag'n'drop.  For the last year I have repeatedly tried to drag things
from
> netscape and of course it didn't work.   W/ the ga 461, life and the
internet
> have returned to norml.
>
> So a HUGE thanks for bringing this feature back.  It had been so long
since I
> had drug a page or a link off, that I almost forgot and thought I was
running
> Windoze (w/out the traps of course <g>)
>
> regards,
>
> Jim
>
> ghjkl


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From: racette@cablevision.qc.ca                         23-Sep-99 21:24:22
  To: All                                               24-Sep-99 04:26:03
Subj: Re: SysInfo/2 Project - Gamma 3 (Need beta testers)

From: racette@cablevision.qc.ca (Martin Racette)

On Thu, 23 Sep 1999 11:52:32, Alexey 
Smirnov <asmirnov@mid.ru> wrote:

> Dear friends!
>     I am just upload into Hobbes my new SysInfo/2 tool - a PM self-made
> clone of Symantec NU for Win 95/NT SystemInfo tool. The archive name is
> sysinfo003.zip. It contain not only my tool, but new THESEUS0.DLL and
> THESEUS2.SYS that can work with "Aurora".
>     Please, I ask you to take part in beta testing of the result of my
> hard work... ;-))
> 
> Best regards, Alexey Smirnov.
> 

what is the URL ?

//-------------------------
Thank you in advance

Merci a l'avance

Martin

http://205.237.57.73/

ICQ #48552954

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From: windowssucks@hotmail.com                          24-Sep-99 00:55:06
  To: All                                               24-Sep-99 04:26:03
Subj: Re: SysInfo/2 Project - Gamma 3 (Need beta testers)

From: "Windos Sucks" <windowssucks@hotmail.com>

On Thu, 23 Sep 1999 21:24:44 GMT, Martin Racette wrote:

:>> Dear friends!
:>>     I am just upload into Hobbes my new SysInfo/2 tool - a PM self-made
:>> clone of Symantec NU for Win 95/NT SystemInfo tool. The archive name is
:>> sysinfo003.zip. It contain not only my tool, but new THESEUS0.DLL and
:>> THESEUS2.SYS that can work with "Aurora".
:>>     Please, I ask you to take part in beta testing of the result of my
:>> hard work... ;-))
:>> 
:>> Best regards, Alexey Smirnov.
:>> 
:>
:>what is the URL ?

ftp://hobbes.nmsu.edu/pub/incoming/sysinfo003.zip



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From: warp@ktn.net                                      23-Sep-99 20:37:23
  To: All                                               24-Sep-99 04:36:17
Subj: Re: SysInfo/2 Project - Gamma 3 (Need beta testers)

From: Lee Pearson <warp@ktn.net>

During startup, while a dialog is displayed with the 
title "Gathering Information. Please, Wait!", the following
error pops up.

Critical Error
TList error exception (EListError)
occured at $0001048C !
Terminate program?
<_Yes> <_No>

Yes results in:
 
Exception occured:
List error exception (EListError)
occured at $00038BF5
Program is terminated.
<OK>

No results in the program exiting silently(no other errors.)



---
============================
Lee Pearson <warp@ktn.net>
============================



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