
                   comp.os.os2.advocacy             (Usenet)

                 Saturday, 04-Sep-1999 to Friday, 10-Sep-1999

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: thannymeister@spambegone.yahoo.com                03-Sep-99 13:07:06
  To: All                                               04-Sep-99 05:58:09
Subj: Re: Doug Garr interviewed on NPR's Public Interest

From: "Mike Ruskai" <thannymeister@spambegone.yahoo.com>

On Fri, 03 Sep 1999 12:04:11 -0400, Marty wrote:

>Brad Wardell wrote:
>> 
>> I listen to NPR every day (to the derision of my co-workers) and I enjoy it
>> a lot.  I even have learned to like the Diane R show.  But the news portion
>> is DEFINITELY biased towards being liberal.
>
>As an aside, I used to listen to an excellent program on NPR.  It was
>called "Work in Progress."  It was on late night (ca. 1AM or so) a few
>years back.  A man named Joe Frank would host a 1.5 to 2 hour program
>once a week in which he would tell these fantastic stories.  Sometimes
>funny, sometimes scarey, sometimes utterly bizarre, but always
>fascinating.  Unfortunately the program lost its funding and they don't
>replay them to my knowledge.  Has anyone else heard of this show?

Joe Frank has had three shows, including Work in Progress.  One other was
called After Dark, but I don't recall the third.

He's not making new ones for his own personal reasons, not a lack of
funding, which there was plenty of (the original station is a commercial
one somewhere on the west coast).

The local freeform radio station (the oldest one in the country, WFMU -
91.1 East Orange, NJ, and 90.1 Mount Hope, NY) used to play Joe Frank
every Thursday night at 7pm.  Since I'm currently out of range, I don't
know if they still do.  They have a RealAudio link (http://www.wfmu.org),
so anyone can listen in. 

In general, it's a listener-supported station (it used to be part of
Upsala College in East Orange, which went belly-up a while ago), with no
commercial support whatsoever.  Consequently, it's the only station around
here (with the exception of Princeton Univerisity's station) where one can
hear music not artificially popularized by the music industry.  In
general, there's a new DJ (volunteer) every three hours, and what you hear
depends entirely on what they want to play.

There's a show on Monday nights called The Greenroom, and the DJ Dorian
often interviews prominent scientists about really nerdy stuff.  They
actually got an interview with Edward Teller a year or two ago (Mr.
Hydrogen Bomb himself).



 - Mike

Remove 'spambegone' to send e-mail.


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From: pasnak@delete.cableregina.com                     03-Sep-99 11:45:02
  To: All                                               04-Sep-99 05:58:09
Subj: ProNews still cool...  Was: Kelly Robinson's Apology 

From: pasnak@delete.cableregina.com (J.P. Pasnak)

On Thu, 2 Sep 1999 14:45:26, richard@NOSPAMwebtrek.com (Richard R. 
Klemmer) woke up with a head full of whiskey and wrote:

> On Thu, 2 Sep 1999 12:01:48, News@The-Net-4U.com (M.P. van Dobben de 
> Bruijn) wrote:
> 
> > 
> > You know about the right-mouse-button in that great OS/2
> > newsreader article-window? Directly connecting you to the
> > thread at DejaNews of the article you are currently reading?
> 
> I didn't, but I do now.  Thanks.  
> 
> For those interested, in ProNews 1.5b, there is a menu option called 
> "Explore Thread" when you right click in  the article window.  This 
> brings up your Web Browser with that thread tracked through Deja News.
> 
> Really nice feature.  Thanks.
> 

Learn something new every day.  Just one more reason to put Pronews at
the top of the newsreader list.  Now if we could just convince them to
maintain it (if not upgrade it).


J.P. Pasnak
Warped Systems
******************
http://members.xoom.com/Warped/every/everything.html
http://members.xoom.com/Warped/every/dirmap.html
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/warpedusers
*******************

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From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               03-Sep-99 17:18:06
  To: All                                               04-Sep-99 05:58:10
Subj: Re: Doug Garr interviewed on NPR's Public Interest

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Mike Ruskai wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 03 Sep 1999 12:04:11 -0400, Marty wrote:
> 
> >Brad Wardell wrote:
> >>
> >> I listen to NPR every day (to the derision of my co-workers) and I enjoy
it
> >> a lot.  I even have learned to like the Diane R show.  But the news
portion
> >> is DEFINITELY biased towards being liberal.
> >
> >As an aside, I used to listen to an excellent program on NPR.  It was
> >called "Work in Progress."  It was on late night (ca. 1AM or so) a few
> >years back.  A man named Joe Frank would host a 1.5 to 2 hour program
> >once a week in which he would tell these fantastic stories.  Sometimes
> >funny, sometimes scarey, sometimes utterly bizarre, but always
> >fascinating.  Unfortunately the program lost its funding and they don't
> >replay them to my knowledge.  Has anyone else heard of this show?
> 
> Joe Frank has had three shows, including Work in Progress.  One other was
> called After Dark, but I don't recall the third.
> 
> He's not making new ones for his own personal reasons, not a lack of
> funding, which there was plenty of (the original station is a commercial
> one somewhere on the west coast).
> 
> The local freeform radio station (the oldest one in the country, WFMU -
> 91.1 East Orange, NJ, and 90.1 Mount Hope, NY) used to play Joe Frank
> every Thursday night at 7pm.  Since I'm currently out of range, I don't
> know if they still do.  They have a RealAudio link (http://www.wfmu.org),
> so anyone can listen in.

Thanks for this link Mike!  I've been looking for a way to listen to these
programs for a long time!  :-)  Glad I mentioned it.  I thought I was one
of 3 people in the whole world that knew about JF.  ;-)

- Marty

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From: sutherda@**ANTI-SPAM**netcomuk.c...               03-Sep-99 23:34:16
  To: All                                               04-Sep-99 11:08:14
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

Message sender: sutherda@**ANTI-SPAM**netcomuk.co.uk

From: sutherda@**ANTI-SPAM**netcomuk.co.uk (David Sutherland)

On 27 Aug 1999 15:12:59 GMT, rjf@yyycomasia.com (rj friedman) wrote:

>On Thu, 26 Aug 1999 23:02:20, 
>sutherda@**ANTI-SPAM**netcomuk.co.uk (David Sutherland) 
>wrote:
>
>I notice you didn't address my point...
>
>On the contrary -  I did address your point. I told you to 
>buy a good hat.
>
>
>________________________________________________________
>
>[RJ]                 OS/2 - Live it, or live with it. 
>rj friedman          Team ABW              
>Taipei, Taiwan       rjf@yyycomasia.com 
>
>To send email - remove the `yyy'
>________________________________________________________


I notice you didn't address my point, and instead resort  to insults,
whilst cutting all context  from the post.  I take it  that you cannot
argue the point, and prefer to indulge in your usual dirty tactics.

Quelle surprise.

Here's the context back:

RJ Freakman wrote:
>
>You made an absolute statement - by the rules of usenet, it 
>was up to you to admit it was a mistake and amend it in a 
>gentlemanly fashion if what you meant was a general 
>statement. You weren't man enough to admit it was your 
>mistake then, and you aren't man enough to do it now.
>

Then I'm sure you'll be taking Bennie to task for not admitting the
mistake of his "unskilled at logic" and "mentally blocked" remarks,
for fear of being thought biased, right RJ?


And RJ, in case you didn't notice, other people think your "arguments"
are those of a loser.  I present evidence, you present insults.   This
is your "credibility"?

ROTFL!

If you can't present an argument, then there's no point responding to
you - people know who won this argument, and your childish,
content-free insults aren't going to change that.  But by all means
respond with your one-line non-sequitor and prove to the world just
how low you can sink.

Oh but wait - that's what you did already - I guess it's time to put
you where you belong - *plonk*


Regards,
David Sutherland
(note **ANTI-SPAM** in reply field)

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From: Spamless@In.Seattle                               03-Sep-99 18:43:06
  To: All                                               04-Sep-99 11:08:14
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: Alan Boyd <Spamless@In.Seattle>

Don Joe - see signature wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 02 Sep 1999 20:54:09 -0500, Alan Boyd <Spamless@In.Seattle> wrote:
> 
> >Don Joe - see signature wrote:
> >>
> >> Ah, the sport of MS-Hating.
> >>
> >> Uh, right.  Same kind of "open standard" as, say, "Java"?  The kind of
"open
> >> standard" where one company -- Sun -- maintains absolute dictatorial
control
> >> over the "standard"?
> >>
> >> Fuck ya, dood.
> >
> >One company?  You mean like some other company does?  Try one community.
> 
> I guess you weren't around when the debate over Sun being granted *sole*
rights
> to decide on what went into the "open" language was going on?

The discussion was about StarOffice and that's what I responded to. 
Since they're "free"ing the source they will give up some control over
it.  How much remains to be seen since (as far as I know) they haven't
published their community source license yet.  Perhaps they have and I
overlooked it.

As far as Java goes, I was around but I ignored it as I really didn't
care one way or the other.  I do remember what happened to xbase
though.  When Aston-Tate lost control the language fragmented.  dBase
went one way, FoxPro went another way and Nantucket took Clipper (the
one I used) in another direction.  My personal opinion is that Sun
should have control over Java since they created it.
-- 
"I don't believe in anti-anything.  A man has to have a 
program; you have to be *for* something, otherwise you 
will never get anywhere."  -- Harry S Truman

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From: PGegen@UKans.nolospamare.edu                      04-Sep-99 02:31:13
  To: All                                               04-Sep-99 11:08:14
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: PGegen@UKans.nolospamare.edu (Dr. Peter Gegenheimer)

On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 05:37:44, sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste) wrote:

 How about more intelligent filtering? (Agent lets me use regular expressions
 on the subject line, but I'd like to be able to filter on the contents of a
 message, so that anything which contains the phrase "MLM" goes straight into
 the trash bin.) Automated responses to messages? ("I'm on vacation right
 now, but I'll get back to you in two weeks.")
 

Guess What?  Post Road Mailer 3.0 lets you do both of those things. Trivially. 

(It also can pull only your mail from a shared ISP account, which I need.)

o----------------------------------------------------------------------o
| Dr. Peter Gegenheimer       | Vox: 785-864-3939  FAX: 785-864-5321   |
| Department of               |   PGegen@UKans.nospam.edu              |
|   Molecular Biosciences     |   http://rnaworld.bio.ukans.edu/       |
|   & Dept. Evol Biology      |                                        |
| University of Kansas        |"When you have excluded the impossible, |
| 2045 Haworth Hall           |  whatever remains, however improbable, |
| Lawrence  KS  66045-2106    |  must be the truth."      S. Holmes    |
o_____________________________|________________________________________o

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From: donjoe@example.com                                03-Sep-99 21:34:00
  To: All                                               04-Sep-99 11:08:14
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: donjoe@example.com (Don Joe - see signature)

On Fri, 03 Sep 1999 18:43:12 -0500, Alan Boyd <Spamless@In.Seattle> wrote:

>Don Joe - see signature wrote:
>> 
>> On Thu, 02 Sep 1999 20:54:09 -0500, Alan Boyd <Spamless@In.Seattle> wrote:
>> 
>> >Don Joe - see signature wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Ah, the sport of MS-Hating.
>> >>
>> >> Uh, right.  Same kind of "open standard" as, say, "Java"?  The kind of
"open
>> >> standard" where one company -- Sun -- maintains absolute dictatorial
control
>> >> over the "standard"?
>> >>
>> >> Fuck ya, dood.
>> >
>> >One company?  You mean like some other company does?  Try one community.
>> 
>> I guess you weren't around when the debate over Sun being granted *sole*
rights
>> to decide on what went into the "open" language was going on?
>
>The discussion was about StarOffice and that's what I responded to. 
>Since they're "free"ing the source they will give up some control over
>it.  How much remains to be seen since (as far as I know) they haven't
>published their community source license yet.  Perhaps they have and I
>overlooked it.
>
>As far as Java goes, I was around but I ignored it as I really didn't
>care one way or the other.  I do remember what happened to xbase
>though.  When Aston-Tate lost control the language fragmented.  dBase
>went one way, FoxPro went another way and Nantucket took Clipper (the
>one I used) in another direction.  My personal opinion is that Sun
>should have control over Java since they created it.

Fine, I have no problem with that.  Just so long as the *stop* the pretense of
it being an "open standard".


-- 
This is not a real email address, nor a real name, so
don't reply via email.

Seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, and months all
roll over.  Years don't.

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From: jvarela@mind-spring.com                           04-Sep-99 00:34:18
  To: All                                               04-Sep-99 11:08:14
Subj: Re: Sun to proliferate Star Office...

From: jvarela@mind-spring.com (John Varela)

On Fri, 3 Sep 1999 01:25:00, JM <malstrom@yolen.oit.umass.edu> wrote:

> And the microsoft brand name.  For far too many Microsoft is the PC.  

You're right.  It really annoys me that when Consumer Reports tests 
personal computers, they report only two kinds:  MacIntosh computers 
and Windows computers.

--
John Varela
to e-mail, remove - between mind and spring

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From: Rob.Churchill@tesco.net                           04-Sep-99 03:01:27
  To: All                                               04-Sep-99 11:08:14
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: Rob.Churchill@tesco.net (Rob Churchill)

On 2 Sep 1999 06:37:02 -0500, donjoe@example.com (Don Joe - see
signature) wrote:




>>
>>I'd love to see how the user with the restore disk manages when
>>he/she attempts a restore after changing their video card, sound
>>card and adding a network card at their local dealers.
>
>Wouldn't 95/98 detect that automatically, and walk the user through the
steps?
>
>
in theory perhaps...

I recently installed a very standard, boringly generic 4MB PCI
graphics card on a PC running win95 that I gave to my dad when I
upgraded. Win95 detected it, and walked me through the installation,
and then insisted it didn't exist. Four hours later, having used all
the skills developed in a youth spent playing badly written text-based
adventures ( viz: try every possible combination, no matter how
illogical, and search every corner, no matter how unlikely ) I had it
up and running.

That's why they call it Plug and Pray.

Rob.




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From: josco@ibm.net                                     03-Sep-99 21:02:07
  To: All                                               04-Sep-99 11:08:14
Subj: Re: Doug Garr interviewed on NPR's Public Interest

From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net>


Esther Schindler wrote:

> I didn't start out with a blanket statement. I said that OS/2 brings
> you those shows; the automated satellite system that schedules and
> send the shows to individual radio stations is run by OS/2. There are
> few companies that use OS/2 solely; most use more than one OS, largely
> because one uses the correct tool for the job. (And sometimes "the
> correct tool" is the OS that supports an application you require.)
>
> No, I didn't hear Terry Gross' interview of Bill Gates; I'm sorry I
> missed it. I'm not surprised, however, if her interviewer-hands were
> tied. Microsoft's PR firm is _really_ controlling when it comes to
> access to Gates, and usually makes a long list of questions that are
> unacceptable. (This is the guy who stomped off Connie Chung's show,
> you may recall.) Apparently, he gets away with it. My coworker, who
> covers Microsoft, has written about the way Microsoft treats the
> press, and would be in a better position to comment on the matter.

Mary Jo Foley put a link
http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/comment/0,5859,2290243,00.html   to this
article:http://www.salon1999.com/tech/feature/1999/07/06/bill_gates/index.html

Perfect is the enemy of good.  If you get to interview someone like Gate
then that's an accomplishment.  Even if you have all these restrictions,
the person's personality can leak out in an interview.  For example a Time
Mag intervierw had gates quoted as saying "Fiction is random (random is
gatespeak for stupid)"  That comment alone says a lot about a person.



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From: rjf@yyycomasia.com                                04-Sep-99 04:51:23
  To: All                                               04-Sep-99 11:08:14
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: rjf@yyycomasia.com (rj friedman)

On Fri, 3 Sep 1999 23:34:32, 
sutherda@**ANTI-SPAM**netcomuk.co.uk (David Sutherland) 
wrote:

I notice you didn't address my point,


On the contrary -  I did address your point. I told you to 
buy a good hat.


________________________________________________________

[RJ]                 OS/2 - Live it, or live with it. 
rj friedman          Team ABW              
Taipei, Taiwan       rjf@yyycomasia.com 

To send email - remove the `yyy'
________________________________________________________

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         04-Sep-99 08:54:13
  To: All                                               04-Sep-99 11:08:15
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Fred Emmerich writes:

>>> Innoval is completely abandoning development and support of all commercial
>>> OS/2 software and Tim says "It's a shame but our best wishes go with you."
>>> Stardock continues to develops OS/2 software but also develops WIN32
>>> software and Tim says "You're a money-grubbing bastard and you're
exploiting
>>> OS/2 users." Why the difference?

>> Steven Den Beste comments on articles posted by others in
>> this newsgroup that have nothing to do with OS/2, yet he
>> posts articles in this newsgroup that have nothing to do
>> with OS/2.  Why the difference?

> Dumb-fuck Tholen can't seem to identify the "OS/2" in the
> text he quoted from Steven.

Incorrect.  The fact that Den Beste referred to OS/2 in that text
doesn't change the fact that Den Beste has posted articles in this
newsgroup that have nothing to do with OS/2.

How ironic that you would refer to me as "Dumb-fuck Tholen".  After
all, you're the one who still believes that the Fortran 90 standard
includes the RECORD statement.

> Clue:  Stevens post *does* have something to do with OS/2.

Clue:  Steven's post about some bet involving stock prices had
nothing to do with OS/2.

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         04-Sep-99 09:06:09
  To: All                                               04-Sep-99 11:08:15
Subj: Re: Java continues to splinter

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Tim Timmins writes:

>>>>> Joe Malloy wrote:

>>>>>> I tholened:

>>>>>>> Steven Den Beste wrote:

>>>>>>>> Since OS/2 users are relying on portable Java as their last remaining
>>>>>>>> hope of mainstream commercial apps in volume, this is relevant to
OS/2's
>>>>>>>> outlook.

>>>>>>> On what basis do you claim to know on what OS/2 users are relying,
>>>>>>> Steven?

>>>>>> On what basis do you claim not to know on what Os/2 users are relying,
>>>>>> Tholen?

>>>>> Your reply makes sense. Not.

>>>> What did you expect from Malloy?

>>> No.

>> Why would you expect a "no" from Malloy?

> I meant I did not expect (anything) from Malloy

You could have expected his illogical response.

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         04-Sep-99 09:04:10
  To: All                                               04-Sep-99 11:08:15
Subj: Re: Bennett digest, volume 2451352

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Karl Knechtel writes:

> No other "Dave Tholen"s post to comp.sys.mac.advocacy and therefore
> no others are available to fill the decribed role of giving posting
> lessons.

I wouldn't make that assumption.  There are people out there trying to
emulate me, and I wouldn't be surprised if they forged a posting using
my name.

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         04-Sep-99 09:01:21
  To: All                                               04-Sep-99 11:08:15
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [rhetorical]

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Karel Jansens writes:

>>> Somehow it's not for me. It's funny, but I really _need_ for some part
>>> of my arm or hand to move, or I get completely confused. I tried one 
>>> of those subnotebooks once that had like a large trackpoint-like 
>>> device positioned next to the screen, sort of like a trackball that 
>>> didn't roll. It was a complete disaster. I bought myself a second-hand
>>> HP Omnibook 425 with the pop-out mouse and I'm perfectly happy with 
>>> that one.

>> How long did you try it out?  I was skeptical of the TrackPoint before
>> I tried it, and even after using it for a while, still preferred a real
>> mouse, but with experience, I came to like it more and more.

> Oh, they're okay as a replacement, I guess. Even the little popsickle 
> mouse on the Omnibook needs some getting used to. I'm still looking for 
> something that would make both navigating and drawing easy. I'll start
> saving for that screen.

Or you could draw on paper and scan the result.

>>> OK, not perfectly: it runs Windows 3.1 and Office from a ROM card. But
>>> I've been talking to some guys about getting a decent OS to run off 
>>> it.

>> Must load the system pretty quickly.  Also difficult to apply patches.

> Part of the software executes as XIP from ROM, but there are shadow 
> system directories set up on the C-drive (a whopping 40 megs of PCMCIA 
> flash). It has some drawbacks (only runs in Standard mode, lousy for DOS
> apps), but Win3.1 isn't that bad if you're not running any mission
> critical stuff and remember to back up often. And Word 2.0 and Excel 4.0
> are - dare I say it? - not so bad as apps go. They don't suffer from bloat
> and get the job done. As a note-taker, this baby flies!

Bloat by today's standards.  "640 k ought to be enough for anybody."
Name the speaker.

>>>>>>> I've been seriously contemplating forking out for a touch-screen 
>>>>>>> monitor and sink that into my worktop, so that it would only protrude 
>>>>>>> a couple of centimeters. Or maybe buy one of those lightpens; I worked
>>>>>>> with one that had drivers for Warp and it had a pretty good 
>>>>>>> resolution, good enough for serious graphics work (I tried tablets, 
>>>>>>> but I loose hand-eye coordination very quickly).

>>>>>> I've seen touch screens in retail locations (the Muse at Tower Records,
>>>>>> for example).  I find them to not work more often than they do work.
>>>>>> And I dislike finger smears on monitor screens.

>>>>> I've had some pleasant experiences, but I agree on the finger smudges.
>>>>> I'd probably use a pen.

>>>> A pen point does offer higher precision than a blunt fingertip.

>>> I tried out a 17" touch screen monitor at 1024x768 resolution and I 
>>> was very happy. Until the salesguy told me the price...

>> More than both arms and both legs?

> The phrase "a pound of flesh" did come up on several occasions, but he
> wouldn't take it.

Maybe because the spirit was willing, but the flesh was weak?

>>>>>>>>>> I also still use the Microsoft FORTRAN compiler when I need to
create a
>>>>>>>>>> 16-bit executable for somebody running DOS.  It has some bugs that
were
>>>>>>>>>> reported, acknowledged as reproducible by the developers, but never 
fixed,
>>>>>>>>>> even after four years.  Microsoft has since discontinued
development of
>>>>>>>>>> their FORTRAN compiler, referring customers to Digital (now Compaq)
>>>>>>>>>> instead.

>>>>>>>>> Sorry, I try not to program, especially not in FORTRAN.

>>>>>>>> Still a good choice for number-crunching applications.  You really
>>>>>>>> should look into the latest standard, namely Fortran 95, if your
>>>>>>>> objections are due to lack of certain features; it may now have them
>>>>>>>> (except no RECORD statement; derived types are handled with a TYPE
>>>>>>>> statement, something that Fred Emmerich still hasn't learned).

>>>>>>> Dave, you don't get it: it's not the features, it's the talent. I've 
>>>>>>> found out that I'm as good at programming as Bill Clinton is at 
>>>>>>> celibacy.

>>>>>> So your remark wasn't specific to FORTRAN, despite the reference to it
>>>>>> especially.

>>>>> No, I can safely say that I'm equally untalented in just about any 
>>>>> programming language. I'm the sort of guy that can mess up a 
>>>>> Logo-program.

>>>> To be at the mercy of other programmers!

>>> I tried.
>>> Lordy, did I try!

>> Fortran 90 has actually gotten easier to use.  The array syntax makes
>> it much more natural to write array expressions, compared to using
>> nested DO loops and indices.

>>> I have now accepted that I'm just not good at it.

>> Then again, if your job doesn't involve the need to write programs,
>> you can survive just fine.

>>>>>>>>>>> The rough I don't mind, it's the stupid that gets on my nerves.

>>>>>>>>>> And you're seeing plenty of it from the so-called "detractors".

>>>>>>>>> I'm not taking sides (Hah! as if that's going to be believed!), but 
>>>>>>>>> here's a shortlist:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 1. Your opinions are only valid if they coincide with everyone
else's.

>>>>>>>> Yes, they do seem to take that position rather frequently.

>>>>>>>>> 2. Fights from another geological era need to be continuously raked 
>>>>>>>>> up.

>>>>>>>> Which "another geological era" are you referring to?

>>>>>>> Let's just say "a long time ago" then.

>>>>>> In a galaxy far away?

>>>>> Heh. Don't we all wish.

>>>> Now, let's not start speaking for "we all".

>>> All right, "some of us", then.

>> Luke, Han, Darth, Obe...

> I don't see them posting often. Is one of them Kelly Robinson?

Before or after being turned by the Dark Side?

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         04-Sep-99 09:12:21
  To: All                                               04-Sep-99 11:08:15
Subj: Re: Doug Garr interviewed on NPR's Public Interest

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Brad Wardell writes:

> as long as one keeps these bias's in mind and filters them out you
> can get to the actual facts.

Like the actual fact that there weren't 1600 postings in other newsgroups
mentioning me and "kook".

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         04-Sep-99 09:29:23
  To: All                                               04-Sep-99 11:08:15
Subj: Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Gerben Bergman writes:

> The only thing I've been (moderately) "bashing" lately has been this group's
> resident Eliza clone Dave Tholen,

Typical invective, but not unexpected, coming from someone who has
admitted to playing an "infantile game".

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         04-Sep-99 09:32:24
  To: All                                               04-Sep-99 11:08:15
Subj: Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Gerben Bergman writes:

> Perhaps I should work on my reading comprehension. <grumble>

Perhaps you should.

> Can you imagine his world being *our* world?

He should be able to, given that it is.

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         04-Sep-99 09:31:07
  To: All                                               04-Sep-99 11:08:15
Subj: Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

cawort01@spam.netcom.com writes:

> Dave is in his own world. :)

On what basis do you call the Earth my own world, Chris?

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenAntiSpam@ifa.hawaii.edu                     04-Sep-99 10:44:20
  To: All                                               04-Sep-99 11:08:15
Subj: Re: MSWolf in sheep's clothing and nothing more.

From: tholenAntiSpam@ifa.hawaii.edu

Kris Kwilas writes [to Tim Martin]:

> There's nothing to "work" Tim, other than you as a punching bag
> for spouting "facts", mistruths, and outright lies.

Perhaps you should take up the matter of mistruths and outright lies
with Brad Wardell.  The number "1600" springs to mind.

> Reading comprehension problems? (I love that one :)

Interesting how so many people actually use statements that I've been
criticized for using.  Did you notice how Esther recently asked someone
to substantiate a claim?

> I rewrite nothing and stand by all my statements (including entrapment
> of Tholen :). 

An interesting admission.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenAntiSpam@ifa.hawaii.edu                     04-Sep-99 10:48:22
  To: All                                               04-Sep-99 11:08:15
Subj: Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2

From: tholenAntiSpam@ifa.hawaii.edu

Gerben Bergman writes:

> I usually stick to filters of the "simple" variety ("From: Tholen OR
> From: warpcity.com").

Too bad your filter doesn't filter out your postings that contain those
selections.

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From: pridgen@texas.net                                 04-Sep-99 13:43:29
  To: All                                               04-Sep-99 14:21:16
Subj: Re: Doug Garr interviewed on NPR's Public Interest

From: pridgen@texas.net (William Pridgen)

On 4 Sep 1999 09:12:42 GMT, tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)
wrote:

>Brad Wardell writes:
>
>> as long as one keeps these bias's in mind and filters them out you
>> can get to the actual facts.
>
>Like the actual fact that there weren't 1600 postings in other newsgroups
>mentioning me and "kook".

Tholen, for the record, I don't think you're a kook.

--
Bill Pridgen
--
pridgen@texas.net
--
"Aide-toi et le Ciel t'aidera."

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From: ericb@pobox.com                                   04-Sep-99 10:55:25
  To: All                                               04-Sep-99 16:39:02
Subj: Re: Bennett digest, volume 2451352

From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)

In article <7qqnal$kku$3@news.hawaii.edu>, tholenantispam@hawaii.edu wrote:

> Karl Knechtel writes:
> 
> > No other "Dave Tholen"s post to comp.sys.mac.advocacy and therefore
> > no others are available to fill the decribed role of giving posting
> > lessons.
> 
> I wouldn't make that assumption.  There are people out there trying to
> emulate me, and I wouldn't be surprised if they forged a posting using
> my name.

Whether or not you would be surprised is not relevant.  What you can prove
is relevant.

-- 
Eric Bennett ( http://www.pobox.com/~ericb/ ) 
Cornell University / Chemistry & Chemical Biology

You can get much further with a kind word and a gun than you can
with a kind word alone. -Al Capone

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From: ericb@pobox.com                                   04-Sep-99 10:59:00
  To: All                                               04-Sep-99 16:39:02
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [rhetorical]

From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)

In article <7qqn5m$kku$2@news.hawaii.edu>, tholenantispam@hawaii.edu wrote:


> Bloat by today's standards.  "640 k ought to be enough for anybody."
> Name the speaker.

Everybody knows who said *that*. :-)


That advice is right up there with, "The 286 is destined to be a
multi-user machine.  No single person could use all that power."  This
latter statement is more inspiring since it comes from some Intel
spokesdroid, whereas the above comes from the master himself.  It shows
that even ordinary people can make dumb projections just as well as Billy
himself.

-- 
Eric Bennett ( http://www.pobox.com/~ericb/ ) 
Cornell University / Chemistry & Chemical Biology

You can get much further with a kind word and a gun than you can
with a kind word alone. -Al Capone

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From: bwardell@mw.mediaone.net                          04-Sep-99 15:59:08
  To: All                                               04-Sep-99 16:39:02
Subj: Re: Doug Garr interviewed on NPR's Public Interest

From: "Brad Wardell" <bwardell@mw.mediaone.net>

William Pridgen <pridgen@texas.net> wrote in message
news:37d121d4.472606492@news.texas.net...
> On 4 Sep 1999 09:12:42 GMT, tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)
> wrote:
>
> >Brad Wardell writes:
> >
> >> as long as one keeps these bias's in mind and filters them out you
> >> can get to the actual facts.
> >
> >Like the actual fact that there weren't 1600 postings in other newsgroups
> >mentioning me and "kook".
>
> Tholen, for the record, I don't think you're a kook.
>

http://www.deja.com/dnquery.xp?DBS=2&VW=&QRY=kook+AND+tholen+NOT+comp.os.os2
.advocacy&svcclass=dnserver

People can make their own conclusions.  If your news reader chops the URL in
2, make sure you take the entire URL to see the mentions of Tholen AND kook
AND not in this news group.

Brad

> --
> Bill Pridgen
> --
> pridgen@texas.net
> --
> "Aide-toi et le Ciel t'aidera."


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From: meilinger@wiesbaden.netsurf.de                    04-Sep-99 16:54:27
  To: All                                               04-Sep-99 20:09:00
Subj: Large OS/2 Customers List (LOS2CL) updated

From: meilinger@wiesbaden.netsurf.de

Hi,

http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~meile/los2cl.html

LOS2CL has been updated.

Thank you for your help to improve the LOS2CL

greetings/2
 Frank

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From: rerbert@wxs.nl                                    04-Sep-99 18:53:18
  To: All                                               04-Sep-99 20:09:00
Subj: Re: Doug Garr interviewed on NPR's Public Interest

From: Gerben Bergman <rerbert@wxs.nl>

On Sat, 04 Sep 1999 15:59:16 GMT, Brad Wardell conveyed the following
hallucination:

| People can make their own conclusions.  If your news reader chops the URL in
| 2, make sure you take the entire URL to see the mentions of Tholen AND kook
| AND not in this news group.

A small nit to pick: the sending application is responsible for the
formatting of messages, meaning your Outlook Express is to blame for the URL
getting slashed into two pieces. Here it is in its entirety:

http://www.deja.com/dnquery.xp?DBS=2&VW=&QRY=kook+AND+tholen+NOT+comp.os.os2.ad
vocacy&svcclass=dnserver

Why do you use this crappy Outlook thing anyway? Because it's free?

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From: esther@bitranch.com                               04-Sep-99 18:48:02
  To: All                                               04-Sep-99 20:09:01
Subj: Tholen's thoughts

From: esther@bitranch.com (Esther Schindler)

Dave,

This has nothing to do with NPR or the media.

If you insist on taking a tangent, please do the rest of us the 
kindness of changing the message subject.

--Esther

On Sat, 4 Sep 1999 09:12:42, tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen) 
wrote:

| Brad Wardell writes:
| 
| > as long as one keeps these bias's in mind and filters them out you
| > can get to the actual facts.
| 
| Like the actual fact that there weren't 1600 postings in other newsgroups
| mentioning me and "kook".
| 


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From: bwardell@mw.mediaone.net                          04-Sep-99 19:22:18
  To: All                                               04-Sep-99 20:09:01
Subj: Re: Doug Garr interviewed on NPR's Public Interest

From: "Brad Wardell" <bwardell@mw.mediaone.net>

Gerben Bergman <rerbert@wxs.nl> wrote in message
news:a0nRN5DxMgPgQ+2mLBZxtWmTOxkq@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 04 Sep 1999 15:59:16 GMT, Brad Wardell conveyed the following
> hallucination:
>
> | People can make their own conclusions.  If your news reader chops the
URL in
> | 2, make sure you take the entire URL to see the mentions of Tholen AND
kook
> | AND not in this news group.
>
> A small nit to pick: the sending application is responsible for the
> formatting of messages, meaning your Outlook Express is to blame for the
URL
> getting slashed into two pieces. Here it is in its entirety:
>
>
http://www.deja.com/dnquery.xp?DBS=2&VW=&QRY=kook+AND+tholen+NOT+comp.os.os2
.advocacy&svcclass=dnserver
>
> Why do you use this crappy Outlook thing anyway? Because it's free?
>

Well, the main reason is that it integrates mail and news together.  That's
why I don't use stand alone news readers or mail readers when in Windows.

Brad


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From: bwardell@mw.mediaone.net                          04-Sep-99 19:24:28
  To: All                                               04-Sep-99 20:09:01
Subj: Re: Tholen's thoughts

From: "Brad Wardell" <bwardell@mw.mediaone.net>

Esther Schindler <esther@bitranch.com> wrote in message
news:LoEFmgJJ9ecw-pn2-15eX2Vo0j6Sd@agave.bitranch.com...
> Dave,
>
> This has nothing to do with NPR or the media.
>
> If you insist on taking a tangent, please do the rest of us the
> kindness of changing the message subject.
>

But then Dave couldn't cling to his technicality that he doesn't start off
topic threads.  As it is, it does serve to demonstrate that he'll try to
ruin a topic by trying to turn it into a flame war.

Brad

> --Esther
>
> On Sat, 4 Sep 1999 09:12:42, tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)
> wrote:
>
> | Brad Wardell writes:
> |
> | > as long as one keeps these bias's in mind and filters them out you
> | > can get to the actual facts.
> |
> | Like the actual fact that there weren't 1600 postings in other
newsgroups
> | mentioning me and "kook".
> |
>
>


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: pcguido@ibm.net                                   04-Sep-99 20:11:23
  To: All                                               04-Sep-99 20:09:01
Subj: Re: Shrink-wrapped Software is Dead

From: pcguido@ibm.net

In <37CE724E.54E0510C@ibm.net>, Joseph <josco@ibm.net> writes:
|
|
|Rob Hughes wrote:
|
|| A couple of points here:
||
|| Joseph wrote:
|| >
|| > In San Francisco Sony has built a large cinema complex in the heart of
the city.  It
|| > also has several display stores and entertainment offerings.  They have a 
large wing
|| > dedicated to Playstation and it's games.  They are on display and for
trial use on
|| > state-of-the-art Sony thin pannel display screens.   MS has a store where 
they
|| > showcase MS products.	This is NOT retail.  A consumer is being motivated
to buy
|| > products.	They can do so on line or retail.  The point is to brand the
consumer
|| > with Sony.
|| >
|| > We may se a shift from retail to display/entertainment stores whre a
consumer can
|| > see products and then buy them on-line.  I don't think we'll ever get rid 
of the
|| > need to see and touch things.	MS hasn't a equal place for seeing MS PC
games --
|| > Sony's display has them beat hands down.
||
|| I can already download a demo of almost any piece of software I want at
|| home instead of having to go somewhere. I like that better. When I go
|| out, its usually for a specific purpose, as opposed to just wandering
|| about, killing time. A thing like you describe would hold my attention
|| for all of about the 10 seconds or so it took me to walk past it.
|
|I understand your point.  Still, the Sony Metron is quite popular and it is
placed next to
|the cinema enterance.	Like Gateway's stores, they exist for product displays
and
|information centers, not as retail outlets.  You don't wander, you look, use
and
|evaluate.	If you have an interest in video consoles the playstation center is 
a great way
|to see and use the product.  I'm no fan of "sharper image" like stores, but
the point
|isn't my taste.  Retail shopping offered the consumer the opportunity to see
and use a
|product.  A hybrid is what will replace pure retail and augment on-line
buying you
|described.  One would shop or browse at a store to decide what to buy and
then buy it
|on-line.  Brands will need to establish display stores. MS has one as does
Sony.
|
|Another point is the windows user fears adding and taking off software since
the
|application can modify the OS.  Testing software and removing it can be very
difficult for
|a windows PC.	OS/2 is better since apps are not supposed to update the OS.  I 
can easily
|archive the WPS and then install the app.	Afterwards I can delete the app and 
restore the
|archived WPS.
|
|
|| > As for authoring software -- IMHO the majority of software performs
services and
|| > these services are something a company like AT&T wants to provide with a
aggregated
|| > bill -- one stop shoping and billing.	If the apps are not from AT&T then
some 3rd
|| > party will work with AT&Ts infrastructure and provide them to the user
(like cable
|| > has it's packages).  I do not see many small developers servicing a
community of
|| > consumers -- ISPs will get in the way -- like AOL for example.
||
|| It sounds like your talking about the new ASP, application service
|| providers. I'm not real sure I would want to run a word processor across
|| a modem, even a cable modem. I'd much rather buy a copy and then run it
|| locally. A lot of people might think differently, until they tried it.
|
|No.  Not just ASP's. I think vertical integration will happen.  ISPs want to
make more $
|off you by offering more services to you. Like AT&T is doing as they *make*
you pay for
|servies if you want to use their cable network. You get "Low priced" bundeled 
services.
|SF CA recently rejected a law to force AT&T to open the network up to other
ISPs or to
|stop AT&T from linking services like e-mail which is offered and paid for
when  you
|accessing their network.  AT&T is going vertical, offering (or forcing) users 
of their
|network to buy into services.	AT&T has a cost advantage -- they already bill
many
|customers for phone services and cna add this ISP to the phone bill.  It's a
monopolist
|tactic.  APSs are a layer in what I think will be more a vertical market --
again the
|cable TV service packages are an anology.
|
|As for downloading apps, a ASP can indeed let me download an applet to the PC 
and it does
|run locally.  Like my OS/2 dialer, the system state can be checked and files
updated.	It
|isn't maintain locally.  The application can be cached but it is maintianed
and the user
|state is best kept and backed up on a networked server.
|
|As for my home PC.  I would like to NOT have to back up my PC data, not be a
systems admin
|at home.  PCs are a bad model. We all waste time with wintel hardware -- even 
when my OS
|is OS/2.  Yes, OS/2 doesn't need to be changed that often and when it does
change its
|compatiblity with older software protects my investments.	Still, all my
financial data is
|on my PC and that scares me -- it can be lost.

The motto in the banking industry is: "Backed Up or Bankrupt".

Just which one do you want to be?

Guido

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From: pcguido@ibm.net                                   04-Sep-99 20:21:04
  To: All                                               05-Sep-99 04:16:02
Subj: Re: Doug Garr interviewed on NPR's Public Interest

From: pcguido@ibm.net

In <1keA3.2977$Ud2.48701@typhoon1.rdc-detw.rr.com>, "Brad Wardell"
<bwardell@mw.mediaone.net> writes:
|
|Gerben Bergman <rerbert@wxs.nl> wrote in message
|news:a0nRN5DxMgPgQ+2mLBZxtWmTOxkq@4ax.com...
|| On Sat, 04 Sep 1999 15:59:16 GMT, Brad Wardell conveyed the following
|| hallucination:
||
|| | People can make their own conclusions.  If your news reader chops the
|URL in
|| | 2, make sure you take the entire URL to see the mentions of Tholen AND
|kook
|| | AND not in this news group.
||
|| A small nit to pick: the sending application is responsible for the
|| formatting of messages, meaning your Outlook Express is to blame for the
|URL
|| getting slashed into two pieces. Here it is in its entirety:
||
||
|http://www.deja.com/dnquery.xp?DBS=2&VW=&QRY=kook+AND+tholen+NOT+comp.os.os2
|..advocacy&svcclass=dnserver
||
|| Why do you use this crappy Outlook thing anyway? Because it's free?
||
|
|Well, the main reason is that it integrates mail and news together.  That's
|why I don't use stand alone news readers or mail readers when in Windows.
|
|Brad

Gee Brad, there's always NetScape; or, is this a case of
"when in Rome, do as the Romans do" ?

:) Guido

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From: rerbert@wxs.nl                                    04-Sep-99 22:45:29
  To: All                                               05-Sep-99 04:16:02
Subj: Re: Doug Garr interviewed on NPR's Public Interest

From: Gerben Bergman <rerbert@wxs.nl>

With half his brain tied behind his back, Brad Wardell said:

| > Why do you use this crappy Outlook thing anyway? Because it's free?
| 
| Well, the main reason is that it integrates mail and news together.  That's
| why I don't use stand alone news readers or mail readers when in Windows.

I personally couldn't live with the way Outlook chops quoted lines and URLs
into smaller pieces when they exceed a certain character limit; makes for
messy formatting and difficult reading. It's awful.

But then again, maybe I'm just *too* anal when it comes to this stuff...

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From: thannymeister@spambegone.yahoo.com                04-Sep-99 17:31:23
  To: All                                               05-Sep-99 04:16:02
Subj: Re: Doug Garr interviewed on NPR's Public Interest

From: "Mike Ruskai" <thannymeister@spambegone.yahoo.com>

On Fri, 03 Sep 1999 17:18:13 -0400, Marty wrote:

>Mike Ruskai wrote:
>> 
>> On Fri, 03 Sep 1999 12:04:11 -0400, Marty wrote:
>> 
>> >Brad Wardell wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I listen to NPR every day (to the derision of my co-workers) and I enjoy 
it
>> >> a lot.  I even have learned to like the Diane R show.  But the news
portion
>> >> is DEFINITELY biased towards being liberal.
>> >
>> >As an aside, I used to listen to an excellent program on NPR.  It was
>> >called "Work in Progress."  It was on late night (ca. 1AM or so) a few
>> >years back.  A man named Joe Frank would host a 1.5 to 2 hour program
>> >once a week in which he would tell these fantastic stories.  Sometimes
>> >funny, sometimes scarey, sometimes utterly bizarre, but always
>> >fascinating.  Unfortunately the program lost its funding and they don't
>> >replay them to my knowledge.  Has anyone else heard of this show?
>> 
>> Joe Frank has had three shows, including Work in Progress.  One other was
>> called After Dark, but I don't recall the third.
>> 
>> He's not making new ones for his own personal reasons, not a lack of
>> funding, which there was plenty of (the original station is a commercial
>> one somewhere on the west coast).
>> 
>> The local freeform radio station (the oldest one in the country, WFMU -
>> 91.1 East Orange, NJ, and 90.1 Mount Hope, NY) used to play Joe Frank
>> every Thursday night at 7pm.  Since I'm currently out of range, I don't
>> know if they still do.  They have a RealAudio link (http://www.wfmu.org),
>> so anyone can listen in.
>
>Thanks for this link Mike!  I've been looking for a way to listen to these
>programs for a long time!  :-)  Glad I mentioned it.  I thought I was one
>of 3 people in the whole world that knew about JF.  ;-)

He's quite popular in my little circle of friends.  My favorite is his
treatise on lying - if the lie doesn't hurt you, it isn't a good one.



 - Mike

Remove 'spambegone' to send e-mail.


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From: bwardell@mw.mediaone.net                          04-Sep-99 23:16:06
  To: All                                               05-Sep-99 04:16:02
Subj: Re: Doug Garr interviewed on NPR's Public Interest

From: "Brad Wardell" <bwardell@mw.mediaone.net>

<pcguido@ibm.net> wrote in message news:37d17f34@news1.prserv.net...
> In <1keA3.2977$Ud2.48701@typhoon1.rdc-detw.rr.com>, "Brad Wardell"
<bwardell@mw.mediaone.net> writes:
> |
> |Gerben Bergman <rerbert@wxs.nl> wrote in message
> |news:a0nRN5DxMgPgQ+2mLBZxtWmTOxkq@4ax.com...
> || On Sat, 04 Sep 1999 15:59:16 GMT, Brad Wardell conveyed the following
> || hallucination:
> ||
> || | People can make their own conclusions.  If your news reader chops the
> |URL in
> || | 2, make sure you take the entire URL to see the mentions of Tholen
AND
> |kook
> || | AND not in this news group.
> ||
> || A small nit to pick: the sending application is responsible for the
> || formatting of messages, meaning your Outlook Express is to blame for
the
> |URL
> || getting slashed into two pieces. Here it is in its entirety:
> ||
> ||
>
|http://www.deja.com/dnquery.xp?DBS=2&VW=&QRY=kook+AND+tholen+NOT+comp.os.os
2
> |..advocacy&svcclass=dnserver
> ||
> || Why do you use this crappy Outlook thing anyway? Because it's free?
> ||
> |
> |Well, the main reason is that it integrates mail and news together.
That's
> |why I don't use stand alone news readers or mail readers when in Windows.
> |
> |Brad
>
> Gee Brad, there's always NetScape; or, is this a case of
> "when in Rome, do as the Romans do" ?
>

<grin>

Actually it bugs me to see that Netscape gets so much sympathy in the
browser war when their browser is now such a bloated buggy piece of crap (in
my humble opinion of course).  OS/2 was and still is so superior to Windows
in so many ways that it's a good example of monopoly practices in action.

But IE beating out Netscape is partially monopoly practices in action but
also a case of the better product winning.

I stayed with Netscape as long as I could but got tired of the bloat and
random crashes.  IE's pretty junky too but comparatively it's junk.  I wish
IBM would make available its own browser.  It has an incredible DOS based
web browser that's super fast.

Brad



> :) Guido
>


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From: bwardell@mw.mediaone.net                          04-Sep-99 23:17:19
  To: All                                               05-Sep-99 04:16:02
Subj: Re: Doug Garr interviewed on NPR's Public Interest

From: "Brad Wardell" <bwardell@mw.mediaone.net>

Gerben Bergman <rerbert@wxs.nl> wrote in message
news:eIHRN5hfOggtwUp8jws4G7wQ=32Q@4ax.com...
> With half his brain tied behind his back, Brad Wardell said:
>
> | > Why do you use this crappy Outlook thing anyway? Because it's free?
> |
> | Well, the main reason is that it integrates mail and news together.
That's
> | why I don't use stand alone news readers or mail readers when in
Windows.
>
> I personally couldn't live with the way Outlook chops quoted lines and
URLs
> into smaller pieces when they exceed a certain character limit; makes for
> messy formatting and difficult reading. It's awful.
>
> But then again, maybe I'm just *too* anal when it comes to this stuff...
>

Well, I'm at the opposite extreme.  I don't check my spelling, I don't check
for typos, I don't read over to make sure my sentences are complete, you get
the idea.

When I reread what I write later, I often want to hide under my desk.  So
you can imagine given the poor quality of my writing why I wouldn't put much
concern into the formatting.

Brad


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From: vicki@midusa.net                                  04-Sep-99 19:01:06
  To: All                                               05-Sep-99 04:16:02
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: "Vicki" <vicki@midusa.net>

If you have only a 1.2 gb hard drive, is it practical to upgrade
to W98. The reason I ask, is the fat 32. Isn't that more for the large
drives?

Actually it would make for more efficient use of the little space I have.
Wouldn't it?

Vicki
> Most windows users I know are quite familiar with installing it
> unfortunately. I became very proficient at it running win95a. Win98 is a
bit
> more stable.
>
>


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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         05-Sep-99 00:21:02
  To: All                                               05-Sep-99 04:16:02
Subj: Re: Doug Garr interviewed on NPR's Public Interest

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

William Pridgen writes:

>> Brad Wardell writes:

>>> as long as one keeps these bias's in mind and filters them out you
>>> can get to the actual facts.

>> Like the actual fact that there weren't 1600 postings in other newsgroups
>> mentioning me and "kook".

> Tholen, for the record, I don't think you're a kook.

Thanks.

What do you think of someone who is so desperate that he has to lie
the way Brad has?

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         05-Sep-99 00:26:08
  To: All                                               05-Sep-99 04:16:02
Subj: Re: Doug Garr interviewed on NPR's Public Interest

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Brad Wardell writes:

> William Pridgen wrote:

>> I wrote:

>>> Brad Wardell writes:

>>>> as long as one keeps these bias's in mind and filters them out you
>>>> can get to the actual facts.

>>> Like the actual fact that there weren't 1600 postings in other newsgroups
>>> mentioning me and "kook".

>> Tholen, for the record, I don't think you're a kook.

> http://www.deja.com/dnquery.xp?DBS=2&VW=&QRY=kook+AND+tholen+NOT+comp.os.os2
> ..advocacy&svcclass=dnserver
>
> People can make their own conclusions.

Yeah.  They can conclude that you're so desperate for evidence that
you'll actually stooping to lying in the extreme.

> If your news reader chops the URL in 2, make sure you take the entire URL
> to see the mentions of Tholen AND kook AND not in this news group.

That won't help, Brad.  Your research skills are so poor that you failed
to realize that your list includes articles posted in this newsgroup that
were also cross-posted to other newsgroups.  Furthermore, you failed to
realize that the number of matches is an overestimate.  Paging through
the list reveals only 361 articles.  Furthermore, 172 of those were
posted by a single person, namely Jason S.  Numerous others were posted
by Edwin Thorne, Jeremy Reimer, and Joe Malloy.  Many are responses to
them posted by me.

Your conclusions are just as bad as your research skills.

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         05-Sep-99 00:27:18
  To: All                                               05-Sep-99 04:16:02
Subj: Re: Doug Garr interviewed on NPR's Public Interest

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Gerben Bergman writes:

> Brad Wardell wrote:

>> People can make their own conclusions.  If your news reader chops the URL
in
>> 2, make sure you take the entire URL to see the mentions of Tholen AND kook
>> AND not in this news group.

> A small nit to pick: the sending application is responsible for the
> formatting of messages, meaning your Outlook Express is to blame for the URL
> getting slashed into two pieces.

Brad can't blame Outlook Express for lying, Gerben.  That's Brad's problem.

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         05-Sep-99 01:22:04
  To: All                                               05-Sep-99 04:16:03
Subj: Re: Doug Garr interviewed on NPR's Public Interest

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Brad Wardell writes:

> Gerben Bergman wrote:

>>> People can make their own conclusions.  If your news reader chops the
>>> URL in 2, make sure you take the entire URL to see the mentions of
>>> Tholen AND kook AND not in this news group.

>> A small nit to pick: the sending application is responsible for the
>> formatting of messages, meaning your Outlook Express is to blame for the
>> URL getting slashed into two pieces. Here it is in its entirety:

> http://www.deja.com/dnquery.xp?DBS=2&VW=&QRY=kook+AND+tholen+NOT+comp.os.os2
> ..advocacy&svcclass=dnserver

>> Why do you use this crappy Outlook thing anyway? Because it's free?

> Well, the main reason is that it integrates mail and news together.  That's
> why I don't use stand alone news readers or mail readers when in Windows.

Still doesn't change the fact that your conclusion is invalid.  Try
taking the time to actually look at your so-called evidence, Brad.
What do you suppose your fellow Stardock people think of you, after
discovering that 1600 is really 361?  And that those really do include
postings in this newsgroup?  And that about half of those were posted
by a single person, namely Jason S.?

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         05-Sep-99 01:24:16
  To: All                                               05-Sep-99 04:16:03
Subj: Re: Doug Garr interviewed on NPR's Public Interest

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Brad Wardell writes:

> Well, I'm at the opposite extreme.  I don't check my spelling, I don't check
> for typos, I don't read over to make sure my sentences are complete, you get
> the idea.

You also don't check your evidence.  You just jump to the wrong conclusion
and then stick to that conclusion, no matter how ridiculous it makes you
look.

> When I reread what I write later, I often want to hide under my desk.

You should hide from the newsgroup, Brad.

> So you can imagine given the poor quality of my writing why I wouldn't put
> much concern into the formatting.

That doesn't explain the poor quality of your reseach, Brad.

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         05-Sep-99 01:26:04
  To: All                                               05-Sep-99 04:16:03
Subj: Re: Schindler's thoughts

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Esther Schindler writes:

>> Brad Wardell writes:
 
>>> as long as one keeps these bias's in mind and filters them out you
>>> can get to the actual facts.
 
>> Like the actual fact that there weren't 1600 postings in other newsgroups
>> mentioning me and "kook".

> This has nothing to do with NPR or the media.

It has everything to do with biases and actual facts.

> If you insist on taking a tangent, please do the rest of us the 
> kindness of changing the message subject.

Do you like the new one any better?

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         05-Sep-99 01:28:07
  To: All                                               05-Sep-99 04:16:03
Subj: Re: Schindler's thoughts

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Brad Wardell writes:

> Esther Schindler wrote:

>> I wrote:

>>> Brad Wardell writes:

>>>> as long as one keeps these bias's in mind and filters them out you
>>>> can get to the actual facts.

>>> Like the actual fact that there weren't 1600 postings in other
>>> newsgroups mentioning me and "kook".

>> This has nothing to do with NPR or the media.
>>
>> If you insist on taking a tangent, please do the rest of us the
>> kindness of changing the message subject.

> But then Dave couldn't cling to his technicality that he doesn't start off
> topic threads.

Sure I could, Brad.  Changing a subject line is not the same as starting
a new thread.  Take a look at the content for a change.

> As it is, it does serve to demonstrate that he'll try to
> ruin a topic by trying to turn it into a flame war.

How ironic, coming from someone who flames people for entertainment
purposes.

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From: hobbyist@nospam.net                               04-Sep-99 22:01:23
  To: All                                               05-Sep-99 05:27:07
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hobbyist_=A9?= <hobbyist@nospam.net>

In response to Vicki's post :

> 
> If you have only a 1.2 gb hard drive, is it practical to upgrade
> to W98. The reason I ask, is the fat 32. Isn't that more for the large
> drives?
> 
> Actually it would make for more efficient use of the little space I have.
> Wouldn't it?

If you are using the 1.2gig partition as one large primary
partition then yes, you'd save significant space using FAT32.

-- 
-=Ali=- 

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From: josco@ibm.net                                     04-Sep-99 21:02:02
  To: All                                               05-Sep-99 05:27:08
Subj: Re: Shrink-wrapped Software is Dead

From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net>


pcguido@ibm.net wrote:

> In <37CE724E.54E0510C@ibm.net>, Joseph <josco@ibm.net> writes:
> |
> |As for my home PC.  I would like to NOT have to back up my PC data, not be
a systems admin
> |at home.  PCs are a bad model. We all waste time with wintel hardware --
even when my OS
> |is OS/2.  Yes, OS/2 doesn't need to be changed that often and when it does
change its
> |compatiblity with older software protects my investments.      Still, all
my financial data is
> |on my PC and that scares me -- it can be lost.
>
> The motto in the banking industry is: "Backed Up or Bankrupt".
>
> Just which one do you want to be?

I want to have my files on a server that is backed up by someone else for a
nominal fee.  Maybe
5-50 MB of data I have is drop dead critical.  I use a JAZZ drive and keep a
copy of my data in a
secure place outside of my locality, SanFancisco.

I actually mail criticla files to myself on my free e-mail account and store
them there as I work
on some projects.  I have 5MB of free storage they have never lost.  Isn't
that a hoot.  And it
ain't a hotmail account.



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From: josco@ibm.net                                     04-Sep-99 21:04:03
  To: All                                               05-Sep-99 05:27:08
Subj: Why NT is x86 only

From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net>

http://cnn.com/TECH/computing/9909/03/linux.alpha.idg/index.html

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From: vicki@midusa.net                                  04-Sep-99 23:35:07
  To: All                                               05-Sep-99 05:27:08
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: "Vicki" <vicki@midusa.net>

Hobbyist  <hobbyist@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:4tzRNy9Tf+fkdidhYomHVglZIjTY@4ax.com...
> In response to Vicki's post :
>
> >
> > If you have only a 1.2 gb hard drive, is it practical to upgrade
> > to W98. The reason I ask, is the fat 32. Isn't that more for the large
> > drives?
> >
> > Actually it would make for more efficient use of the little space I
have.
> > Wouldn't it?
>
> If you are using the 1.2gig partition as one large primary
> partition then yes, you'd save significant space using FAT32.
>
> --
> -=Ali=-

In response to Ali's response to Vicki.   ;-)

i thought so.


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From: rjf@yyycomasia.com                                05-Sep-99 06:37:02
  To: All                                               05-Sep-99 10:23:20
Subj: Re: Doug Garr interviewed on NPR's Public Interest

From: rjf@yyycomasia.com (rj friedman)

On Sat, 4 Sep 1999 15:59:16, "Brad Wardell" 
<bwardell@mw.mediaone.net> wrote:

[Bill Pridgen]
> Tholen, for the record, I don't think you're a kook.


http://www.deja.com/dnquery.xp?DBS=2&VW=&QRY=kook+AND+thole
n+NOT+comp.os.os2
..advocacy&svcclass=dnserver
 
People can make their own conclusions...

If you had bothered to read the results of that query - or 
had bothered to listen to what others told you were the 
reults of that query - you would know that they prove the 
opposite of what you would like people to believe.

All you are relying on is the fact that DejaNews returned a 
figure of 1600 hits. You are unaware of the fact that this 
is a quirk in the way DejaNews reports things. For example, 
doing a search in DejaNews on Wardell for Aug 30 1999 
(only!), DejaNews reported *5 THOUSAND +*  hits.

The returned hits figure is unreliable and indicative of 
nothing. In addition, your search doesn't tell you which 
Tholen is being referenced (any and every Tholen on usenet -
to shed some light on your ignorance), nor does it tell you 
who wrote the messages (a single person could be responsible
for hundreds and hundreds of messages  - to shed some light 
on your ignorance), nor does it tell you the context under 
which the reference to Tholen occurred (hundreds and 
hundreds of messages telling you that you are being petty 
and vindictive for carrying out a smear campaign - to shed 
some light on your ignorance).

In your petty, vindictive, jihad against Dave - because he 
proved that he was right and you were wrong - you are 
resorting to a smear campaign in an attempt to discredit him
and his ideas (i.e., Tholen is a `kook' so he can't be 
right). Your so-called evidence doesn't hold up - anyone who
took the trouble to examine it - as you obviously didn't 
even bother to do - can see that.

Your entire smear campaign and the motivation behind it 
stinks to high heaven.




________________________________________________________

[RJ]                 OS/2 - Live it, or live with it. 
rj friedman          Team ABW              
Taipei, Taiwan       rjf@yyycomasia.com 

To send email - remove the `yyy'
________________________________________________________

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From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               05-Sep-99 00:01:11
  To: All                                               05-Sep-99 10:23:20
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste)

On Sat, 04 Sep 1999 21:04:06 -0400, Joseph recycled some holes into the
following pattern:

>http://cnn.com/TECH/computing/9909/03/linux.alpha.idg/index.html

Petreley's track record on predictions is none too good.

First, notice that he's listed as "editorial director of LinuxWorld"; do you
think he's going to stand up and say "Linux is gonna die, guys, NT is
forever; my meal ticket doesn't have a chance and I'm gonna use this
opportunity to tell you all what fools you are for trying to make it work"?
Or indeed anything except a rosey glow announcement? (This article was
originally posted in LinuxWorld itself and Petreley is preaching to the
choir: http://www.linuxworld.com/linuxworld/lw-1999-08/lw-08-penguin_2.html)

I still have the last couple issues of "OS/2 Magazine" and even when the
editorial staff KNEW that the end was coming for them and that OS/2 was in
deep trouble, they STILL slanted their editorials positively and tried to
put a cheery face on things. Writers write what they think their audiences
want to hear, or at least are willing to tolerate.

The problem is that Petreley has done this in the past, in a big way.
Remember that he quite his job at InfoWorld to be editorial director at
NCWorld magazine, and started predicting that the PC was dead and that
everyone would be using thin clients within a short interval?

NCWorld magazine is a fading memory, and Petreley is back at InfoWorld. The
PC continues to sell strongly. The NC revolution never happened.

Here are some other interesting predictions:


February, 1997:
http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayNew.pl?/petrel/np022497.htm
"It's a happy, happy world for the new market leaders of network computing"
Just read it.


March, 1997:
http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayNew.pl?/petrel/np031097.htm
"The tale of two mantises: Microsoft is preying, and now Citrix is praying"
Essentially, he predicts that Citrix would crash and burn because it was
making a deal with the devil. While Citrix is no threat to Microsoft, it is
a solid business success with a small but viable niche.
He starts to backpeddle a bit here:
http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayNew.pl?/petrel/np051997.htm
And yet more here:
http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayNew.pl?/petrel/971110np.htm

July, 1997:
http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayNew.pl?/petrel/np072197.htm
Describes why Solaris will destroy NT in the small server market. In
actuality, NT has done very well in that market.


October, 1997:
http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayNew.pl?/petrel/971027np.htm
Predicts widespread use of client-side Java-based office suites and other
significant apps. It never happened.


February, 1998:
http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayNew.pl?/petrel/980202np.htm
Predicts that the release of the Communicator source would revolutionize the
browser market, and defeat Microsoft. (The predictions are phrased as
questions, but clearly they're rhetorical.)


I could probably find a bunch more, but this is sufficient. The article you
cite isn't evidence; it's one man's opinion. And that man has been wrong a
lot.

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
              -- Calvin

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From: gsf@ibm.net                                       05-Sep-99 13:01:13
  To: All                                               05-Sep-99 14:48:26
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: Gilbert Saint-flour <gsf@ibm.net>

In <380109af.369797018@news-server>, on 05 Sep 1999 at 00:01,
sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste) said:

>On Sat, 04 Sep 1999 21:04:06 -0400, Joseph recycled some holes into the
>following pattern:

>>http://cnn.com/TECH/computing/9909/03/linux.alpha.idg/index.html

>Petreley's track record on predictions is none too good.

<big snip>

You think the glass is half-empty, perhaps it's half-full.  Petreley's
biased towards Linux just like you're biased towards Microsoft and, BTW,
why you waste so much time on an OS/2 advocacy forum is a mystery to me.  

Some of Petreley's predictions turned out wrong (you cited a number of
those), a number of others turned out right (of course, you don't mention
any of them).  His 1996 prediction regarding the fate of NT on Alpha was
indeed right on the money - see http://www.idg.net/go.cgi?id=157884

Gilbert Saint-flour 


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From: rerbert@wxs.nl                                    05-Sep-99 16:35:23
  To: All                                               05-Sep-99 14:48:26
Subj: Re: Doug Garr interviewed on NPR's Public Interest

From: Gerben Bergman <rerbert@wxs.nl>

I'm sorry, Brad Wardell, did you say something?

| It bugs me to see that Netscape gets so much sympathy in the browser war
| when their browser is now such a bloated buggy piece of crap (in my humble
| opinion of course). IE beating out Netscape is partially monopoly practices
| in action but also a case of the better product winning.

Absolutely. Using Netscape had become such a clear case of shooting myself
in the foot that I recently removed it from my computer completely, and I
haven't missed it a single time since. Good riddance.

| I wish IBM would make available its own browser. It has an incredible DOS
| based web browser that's super fast.

Have you tried Opera? While version 3.51 had some annoying issues (scaling
of frames, Javascript instability), version 3.60 is actually quite nice and
usable -- it gets about 95% screen time on my machine. Definitely faster and
more configurable than IE5.

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From: gsf@ibm.net                                       05-Sep-99 15:11:07
  To: All                                               05-Sep-99 14:48:27
Subj: Re: Tholen's thoughts

From: Gilbert Saint-flour <gsf@ibm.net>

In <LoEFmgJJ9ecw-pn2-15eX2Vo0j6Sd@agave.bitranch.com>, on 04 Sep 1999 at
18:48, esther@bitranch.com (Esther Schindler) said:

>Dave,

>This has nothing to do with NPR or the media.
>If you insist on taking a tangent, please do the rest of us 
>the kindness of changing the message subject.

Esther,

I'm not trying to defend Tholen who deserves a lot of what he gets around
here, but, for the sake of fairness, you ought to make the same comment to
Gerben Bergman who started the Outlook tangent without changing the
subject.

Gilbert Saint-flour <gsf@ibm.net>


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From: lumpstick@hotmail.com                             05-Sep-99 16:33:28
  To: All                                               05-Sep-99 14:48:27
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: lumpstick@hotmail.com (LK)

In article <37d084f5.18949139@news.tesco.net>, Rob.Churchill@tesco.net (Rob
Churchill) wrote:
>On 2 Sep 1999 06:37:02 -0500, donjoe@example.com (Don Joe - see
>signature) wrote:
>
>
>
>
>>>
>>>I'd love to see how the user with the restore disk manages when
>>>he/she attempts a restore after changing their video card, sound
>>>card and adding a network card at their local dealers.
>>
>>Wouldn't 95/98 detect that automatically, and walk the user through the
steps?
>>
>>
>in theory perhaps...
>
>I recently installed a very standard, boringly generic 4MB PCI
>graphics card on a PC running win95 that I gave to my dad when I
>upgraded. Win95 detected it, and walked me through the installation,
>and then insisted it didn't exist. Four hours later, having used all
>the skills developed in a youth spent playing badly written text-based
>adventures ( viz: try every possible combination, no matter how
>illogical, and search every corner, no matter how unlikely ) I had it
>up and running.
>
>That's why they call it Plug and Pray.


Quite contrary to my experience of installing a Diamond Viper AGP V550, US 
Robotics 56k modem, a Toshiba DVD drive, an HP CDR, and a Hollywood ReelMagic 
Card in about an hour total (including unhooking the cables, opening the 
case, etc.), and never having a problem getting the hardware recognized.  
Seeing that you said "generic" PCI card, it was probably a piece of crap and 
you should be ashamed to pass it on to a family member.

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From: hobbyist@nospam.net                               05-Sep-99 11:11:10
  To: All                                               05-Sep-99 14:48:27
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hobbyist_=A9?= <hobbyist@nospam.net>

In response to LK's post :


> >I recently installed a very standard, boringly generic 4MB PCI
> >graphics card on a PC running win95 that I gave to my dad when I
> >upgraded. Win95 detected it, and walked me through the installation,
> >and then insisted it didn't exist. Four hours later, having used all
> >the skills developed in a youth spent playing badly written text-based
> >adventures ( viz: try every possible combination, no matter how
> >illogical, and search every corner, no matter how unlikely ) I had it
> >up and running.
> >
> >That's why they call it Plug and Pray.
> 
> 
> Quite contrary to my experience of installing a Diamond Viper AGP V550, US 
> Robotics 56k modem, a Toshiba DVD drive, an HP CDR, and a Hollywood
ReelMagic 
> Card in about an hour total (including unhooking the cables, opening the 
> case, etc.), and never having a problem getting the hardware recognized.  
> Seeing that you said "generic" PCI card, it was probably a piece of crap and 

> you should be ashamed to pass it on to a family member.

Unkindly put but true.

If you stick with good hardware then the so called plug and pray
experience will be less common and instead you're more likely to
experience a plug and play experience.

-- 
-=Ali=- 

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From: esther@bitranch.com                               05-Sep-99 16:21:22
  To: All                                               05-Sep-99 14:48:27
Subj: Re: Tholen's thoughts

From: esther@bitranch.com (Esther Schindler)

On Sun, 5 Sep 1999 15:11:14, Gilbert Saint-flour <gsf@ibm.net> wrote:
| I'm not trying to defend Tholen who deserves a lot of what he gets around
| here, but, for the sake of fairness, you ought to make the same comment to
| Gerben Bergman who started the Outlook tangent without changing the
| subject.

True, Gilbert, but Gerben didn't post the same essential message 
multiple times.

I wish _everyone_ would change message subjects when the topics 
change. There's nothing as annoying as downloading a thread ostensibly
about TopicA and discovering that half the messages are about TopicB. 
Or, perhaps, if you're interested in TopicB, learning that you'd 
missed a whole conversation about the subject.

--Esther


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From: forgitabout@mail.com                              05-Sep-99 13:14:09
  To: All                                               05-Sep-99 21:13:20
Subj: Re: Doug Garr interviewed on NPR's Public Interest

From: forgitabout@mail.com (David H. McCoy)

In article <u37SN4US8WB4gZZYqStOuUWkXSIj@4ax.com>, rerbert@wxs.nl says...
> I'm sorry, Brad Wardell, did you say something?
> 
> | It bugs me to see that Netscape gets so much sympathy in the browser war
> | when their browser is now such a bloated buggy piece of crap (in my humble
> | opinion of course). IE beating out Netscape is partially monopoly
practices
> | in action but also a case of the better product winning.
> 
> Absolutely. Using Netscape had become such a clear case of shooting myself
> in the foot that I recently removed it from my computer completely, and I
> haven't missed it a single time since. Good riddance.
> 
> | I wish IBM would make available its own browser. It has an incredible DOS
> | based web browser that's super fast.
> 
> Have you tried Opera? While version 3.51 had some annoying issues (scaling
> of frames, Javascript instability), version 3.60 is actually quite nice and
> usable -- it gets about 95% screen time on my machine. Definitely faster and
> more configurable than IE5.
> 
> 

The problem I have with Opera is that multi-doc interface. I've never 
liked that. Netcaptor, however, is a pretty good choice. The tabbed 
interface is a better choice, IMO.
-- 
---------------------------------------
David H. McCoy
dmccoy@EXTRACT_THIS_mnsinc.com
---------------------------------------

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From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net                            05-Sep-99 17:13:05
  To: All                                               05-Sep-99 21:13:20
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens)

On Sun, 5 Sep 1999 16:11:20, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hobbyist_=A9?= 
<hobbyist@nospam.net> wrote:

> In response to LK's post :
> 
> 
> > >I recently installed a very standard, boringly generic 4MB PCI
> > >graphics card on a PC running win95 that I gave to my dad when I
> > >upgraded. Win95 detected it, and walked me through the installation,
> > >and then insisted it didn't exist. Four hours later, having used all
> > >the skills developed in a youth spent playing badly written text-based
> > >adventures ( viz: try every possible combination, no matter how
> > >illogical, and search every corner, no matter how unlikely ) I had it
> > >up and running.
> > >
> > >That's why they call it Plug and Pray.
> > 
> > 
> > Quite contrary to my experience of installing a Diamond Viper AGP V550, US 

> > Robotics 56k modem, a Toshiba DVD drive, an HP CDR, and a Hollywood
ReelMagic 
> > Card in about an hour total (including unhooking the cables, opening the 
> > case, etc.), and never having a problem getting the hardware recognized.  
> > Seeing that you said "generic" PCI card, it was probably a piece of crap
and 
> > you should be ashamed to pass it on to a family member.
> 
> Unkindly put but true.
> 
> If you stick with good hardware then the so called plug and pray
> experience will be less common and instead you're more likely to
> experience a plug and play experience.
> 
So why don't they call it "Buy from approved list, plug and play" 
then?

Because that doesn't fit on the labels?
Or because it has a multi-syllable word in it? :^)

Karel Jansens
jansens_at_ibm_dot_net
=======================================================
If we could have our cake _and_ eat it,
people would start whining about seconds.
=======================================================

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From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net                            05-Sep-99 17:13:06
  To: All                                               05-Sep-99 21:13:20
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [rhetorical]

From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens)

On Sat, 4 Sep 1999 09:01:42, tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen) 
wrote:

> Karel Jansens writes:
> 
> >>> Somehow it's not for me. It's funny, but I really _need_ for some part
> >>> of my arm or hand to move, or I get completely confused. I tried one 
> >>> of those subnotebooks once that had like a large trackpoint-like 
> >>> device positioned next to the screen, sort of like a trackball that 
> >>> didn't roll. It was a complete disaster. I bought myself a second-hand
> >>> HP Omnibook 425 with the pop-out mouse and I'm perfectly happy with 
> >>> that one.
> 
> >> How long did you try it out?  I was skeptical of the TrackPoint before
> >> I tried it, and even after using it for a while, still preferred a real
> >> mouse, but with experience, I came to like it more and more.
> 
> > Oh, they're okay as a replacement, I guess. Even the little popsickle 
> > mouse on the Omnibook needs some getting used to. I'm still looking for 
> > something that would make both navigating and drawing easy. I'll start
> > saving for that screen.
> 
> Or you could draw on paper and scan the result.
> 
Yes.
Unfortunately, that has a now a very low geek-factor. *Everybody* has 
a scanner (everybody except me, that is), but a touch-screen desktop 
monitor, ah, that'll impress the relatives...
:^). of course.

> >>> OK, not perfectly: it runs Windows 3.1 and Office from a ROM card. But
> >>> I've been talking to some guys about getting a decent OS to run off 
> >>> it.
> 
> >> Must load the system pretty quickly.  Also difficult to apply patches.
> 
> > Part of the software executes as XIP from ROM, but there are shadow 
> > system directories set up on the C-drive (a whopping 40 megs of PCMCIA 
> > flash). It has some drawbacks (only runs in Standard mode, lousy for DOS
> > apps), but Win3.1 isn't that bad if you're not running any mission
> > critical stuff and remember to back up often. And Word 2.0 and Excel 4.0
> > are - dare I say it? - not so bad as apps go. They don't suffer from bloat
> > and get the job done. As a note-taker, this baby flies!
> 
> Bloat by today's standards.  "640 k ought to be enough for anybody."
> Name the speaker.
> 
Aren't kids taught that line in school nowadays? It was George 
Washington, right?

Seriously, though: Word 2 ain't half bad when it comes to 
wordprocessing. I still think Ami Pro 3 was better, but it would start
up more slowly on the Omnibook (executed from plain old RAM, instead 
of zippy XIP ROM), so I stick to Word. The fileformat is pretty 
universally recognised too, so I can easily import files into a 
serious wordprocessor.

> >>>>>>> I've been seriously contemplating forking out for a touch-screen 
> >>>>>>> monitor and sink that into my worktop, so that it would only
protrude 
> >>>>>>> a couple of centimeters. Or maybe buy one of those lightpens; I
worked
> >>>>>>> with one that had drivers for Warp and it had a pretty good 
> >>>>>>> resolution, good enough for serious graphics work (I tried tablets, 
> >>>>>>> but I loose hand-eye coordination very quickly).
> 
> >>>>>> I've seen touch screens in retail locations (the Muse at Tower
Records,
> >>>>>> for example).  I find them to not work more often than they do work.
> >>>>>> And I dislike finger smears on monitor screens.
> 
> >>>>> I've had some pleasant experiences, but I agree on the finger smudges.
> >>>>> I'd probably use a pen.
> 
> >>>> A pen point does offer higher precision than a blunt fingertip.
> 
> >>> I tried out a 17" touch screen monitor at 1024x768 resolution and I 
> >>> was very happy. Until the salesguy told me the price...
> 
> >> More than both arms and both legs?
> 
> > The phrase "a pound of flesh" did come up on several occasions, but he
> > wouldn't take it.
> 
> Maybe because the spirit was willing, but the flesh was weak?
> 
Yeah, I'll go back and tell him that. Somehow I don't think a 
salesminion would be inclined to start a semi-philosophical debate, 
even if he could understand the words...

> >>>>>>>>>> I also still use the Microsoft FORTRAN compiler when I need to
create a
> >>>>>>>>>> 16-bit executable for somebody running DOS.  It has some bugs
that were
> >>>>>>>>>> reported, acknowledged as reproducible by the developers, but
never fixed,
> >>>>>>>>>> even after four years.  Microsoft has since discontinued
development of
> >>>>>>>>>> their FORTRAN compiler, referring customers to Digital (now
Compaq)
> >>>>>>>>>> instead.
> 
> >>>>>>>>> Sorry, I try not to program, especially not in FORTRAN.
> 
> >>>>>>>> Still a good choice for number-crunching applications.  You really
> >>>>>>>> should look into the latest standard, namely Fortran 95, if your
> >>>>>>>> objections are due to lack of certain features; it may now have
them
> >>>>>>>> (except no RECORD statement; derived types are handled with a TYPE
> >>>>>>>> statement, something that Fred Emmerich still hasn't learned).
> 
> >>>>>>> Dave, you don't get it: it's not the features, it's the talent. I've 

> >>>>>>> found out that I'm as good at programming as Bill Clinton is at 
> >>>>>>> celibacy.
> 
> >>>>>> So your remark wasn't specific to FORTRAN, despite the reference to
it
> >>>>>> especially.
> 
> >>>>> No, I can safely say that I'm equally untalented in just about any 
> >>>>> programming language. I'm the sort of guy that can mess up a 
> >>>>> Logo-program.
> 
> >>>> To be at the mercy of other programmers!
> 
> >>> I tried.
> >>> Lordy, did I try!
> 
> >> Fortran 90 has actually gotten easier to use.  The array syntax makes
> >> it much more natural to write array expressions, compared to using
> >> nested DO loops and indices.
> 
> >>> I have now accepted that I'm just not good at it.
> 
> >> Then again, if your job doesn't involve the need to write programs,
> >> you can survive just fine.
> 
> >>>>>>>>>>> The rough I don't mind, it's the stupid that gets on my nerves.
> 
> >>>>>>>>>> And you're seeing plenty of it from the so-called "detractors".
> 
> >>>>>>>>> I'm not taking sides (Hah! as if that's going to be believed!),
but 
> >>>>>>>>> here's a shortlist:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> 1. Your opinions are only valid if they coincide with everyone
else's.
> 
> >>>>>>>> Yes, they do seem to take that position rather frequently.
> 
> >>>>>>>>> 2. Fights from another geological era need to be continuously
raked 
> >>>>>>>>> up.
> 
> >>>>>>>> Which "another geological era" are you referring to?
> 
> >>>>>>> Let's just say "a long time ago" then.
> 
> >>>>>> In a galaxy far away?
> 
> >>>>> Heh. Don't we all wish.
> 
> >>>> Now, let's not start speaking for "we all".
> 
> >>> All right, "some of us", then.
> 
> >> Luke, Han, Darth, Obe...
> 
> > I don't see them posting often. Is one of them Kelly Robinson?
> 
> Before or after being turned by the Dark Side?
> 
I always picture Mr Robinson (AKA... ) as that little *ss-h*le 
creature with Jabba, you know, the one you want to hit repeatedly on 
the head, just to make it stop laughing... (so's I can go back to 
"studying" Leia' bikini, heh heh heh!)

Karel Jansens
jansens_at_ibm_dot_net
=======================================================
If we could have our cake _and_ eat it,
people would start whining about seconds.
=======================================================

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From: hobbyist@nospam.net                               05-Sep-99 12:26:11
  To: All                                               05-Sep-99 21:13:20
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hobbyist_=A9?= <hobbyist@nospam.net>

In response to jansens_at_ibm_dot_net's post :

> > Unkindly put but true.
> > 
> > If you stick with good hardware then the so called plug and pray
> > experience will be less common and instead you're more likely to
> > experience a plug and play experience.
> > 
> So why don't they call it "Buy from approved list, plug and play" 
> then?

I wonder the same thing myself. Apple solves the issue by making
their hardware proprietary. Unfortunately, PC Hardware isn't
proprietary which makes the plug and play implementation akin to
chasing a moving target. The 'each machine has a personality of
it's own' phenomenon sets in and each person hopes that a
hardware install will go as planned. The declining use of ISA bus
type hardware is reducing the headache significantly.

It does also depend on the hardware that you are referring to.
Installing harddrives and removeable media is a breeze hence they
are using an interface that is already installed and using it's
assigned resources. PCI hardware has less plug and pray
associated with it than ISA.

Installing SCSI peripherals once the SCSI card is installed is a
breeze. Installing parallel port or USB hardware again is a
breeze, on any system actually. This therefore narrows down the
plug and pray issue to ISA and some poorly designed PCI hardware.


-- 
-=Ali=- 

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From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               05-Sep-99 10:32:29
  To: All                                               05-Sep-99 21:13:20
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste)

On Sun, 05 Sep 1999 13:01:27 GMT, Gilbert Saint-flour recycled some holes
into the following pattern:

>In <380109af.369797018@news-server>, on 05 Sep 1999 at 00:01,
>sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste) said:
>
>>On Sat, 04 Sep 1999 21:04:06 -0400, Joseph recycled some holes into the
>>following pattern:
>
>>>http://cnn.com/TECH/computing/9909/03/linux.alpha.idg/index.html
>
>>Petreley's track record on predictions is none too good.
>
><big snip>
>
>You think the glass is half-empty, perhaps it's half-full.  Petreley's
>biased towards Linux just like you're biased towards Microsoft and, BTW,
>why you waste so much time on an OS/2 advocacy forum is a mystery to me.  
>
>Some of Petreley's predictions turned out wrong (you cited a number of
>those), a number of others turned out right (of course, you don't mention
>any of them).  His 1996 prediction regarding the fate of NT on Alpha was
>indeed right on the money - see http://www.idg.net/go.cgi?id=157884
>
>Gilbert Saint-flour 
>

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

The point is that Petreley's attitude towards Microsoft is invariably
negative. Since Microsoft is not always perfect (God knows) sometimes he'll
be right because of that. But sometimes Microsoft does good things, and
sometimes Microsoft succeeds. And then he's wrong. So the fact that he's
predicting the downfall of NT at the hands of Linux is best described as
"non-news"; there's no information there, his attitude in this is a foregone
conclusion, and his opinion doesn't inform.


Also, the subject of this thread is wrong. NT (or its lineal descendants) is
not x86 only. NT4 shipped with support for three other platforms, and
Microsoft is hot-and-heavy in development of NT for Merced, which is not
considered part of the x86 family.

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
              -- Calvin

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From: monty@nooky.gov                                   05-Sep-99 17:50:21
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 04:16:14
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: monty@nooky.gov (Montgomery Burns)

In article <6KXSN8KTW+klFdGggfz9gzpiOp0L@4ax.com>,
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hobbyist_=A9?= <hobbyist@nospam.net> wrote:

>In response to jansens_at_ibm_dot_net's post :
>
>> > Unkindly put but true.
>> > 
>> > If you stick with good hardware then the so called plug and pray
>> > experience will be less common and instead you're more likely to
>> > experience a plug and play experience.
>> > 
>> So why don't they call it "Buy from approved list, plug and play" 
>> then?
>
>I wonder the same thing myself. Apple solves the issue by making
>their hardware proprietary. 

Like how? stick any IDE/SCSI/Ethernet/Video card into a Mac and as long as
the drivers are there, it works (drivers supplied by card maker on a
floppy). Macs use RAM cards that can be used in peecees, same goes with
monitors, Jaz, Zip, Orb Drives. 

Exactly what point are you trying to make, Ali Joon? That Windohs apps
don't run on Mac OS? or maybe that AppleScript doesn't run on windohs?

May I point out the fantabulous number of printer drivers on Windohs?
May I point out lousy programming by those who port crappy drivers from
windohs to Mac and manage to make life difficult on the Mac also?

sure you can't use an ADB serial device on non macs, but not USB is the
standard on both sides of the fence.

MB

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From: rerbert@wxs.nl                                    05-Sep-99 20:10:04
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 04:16:14
Subj: Re: Doug Garr interviewed on NPR's Public Interest

From: Gerben Bergman <rerbert@wxs.nl>

On page 21 of David H. McCoy's diary, it reads:

| > Have you tried Opera? While version 3.51 had some annoying issues (scaling
| > of frames, Javascript instability), version 3.60 is actually quite nice
and
| > usable -- it gets about 95% screen time on my machine. Definitely faster
and
| > more configurable than IE5.
| 
| The problem I have with Opera is that multi-doc interface. I've never liked
| that.

I don't mind the multi-document interface myself (as a rule I maximize
sub-windows), but I do wish Opera had an easier mechanism for switching
between documents (such as NetCaptor's tabs). I'll suggest it to the
developers.

| Netcaptor, however, is a pretty good choice. The tabbed interface is a
| better choice, IMO.

The problem I have with NetCaptor is that it's based on the IE engine.
Opera's engine is a lot faster (especially when reading pages/images from
the cache), and it lets me specify *exactly* how I want pages to display
font-wise (IE displays them either too big or too small). Opera also feels
more responsive.

But to each his own, I guess...

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From: josco@ibm.net                                     05-Sep-99 11:12:05
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 04:16:14
Subj: Re: OS/2 is still very much alive!!!

From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net>


David Frank wrote:

> Surr-prise surr-prise
>  the article is written by someone we now very well here, (Esther
Schindler),
> who claims IBM has sold OS/2 "client" licenses worth $70m
> last year..
>
> She also reports:
> IDC says OS/2 use is down to 0.5 % of 89 million? desktops..
> (a sharp drop)
>
> applying a little estimating:
>  0.5% = approx.  500k current users
>  $70 million =      500k new users?
>
> IBM's sales figures relating to OS/2
> client dont add up,  so whats new !!

Maybe your calcualtions are off.  What do you know about WSOD?

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From: hobbyist@nospam.net                               05-Sep-99 13:36:19
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 04:16:14
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hobbyist_=A9?= <hobbyist@nospam.net>

In response to Montgomery Burns's post :

> >> > Unkindly put but true.
> >> > 
> >> > If you stick with good hardware then the so called plug and pray
> >> > experience will be less common and instead you're more likely to
> >> > experience a plug and play experience.
> >> > 
> >> So why don't they call it "Buy from approved list, plug and play" 
> >> then?
> >
> >I wonder the same thing myself. Apple solves the issue by making
> >their hardware proprietary. 
> 
> Like how? stick any IDE/SCSI/Ethernet/Video card into a Mac and as long as
> the drivers are there, it works (drivers supplied by card maker on a
> floppy). Macs use RAM cards that can be used in peecees, same goes with
> monitors, Jaz, Zip, Orb Drives.

Yes, but try going down to the corner store to get a motherboard
upgrade. Buy a Mac compatible motherboard from any source and see
who manufactures it.

> Exactly what point are you trying to make,

The motherboard and how it interacts with the OS and peripherals
is a major factor in plug and play reliability.  

> Ali Joon?

Ali alone will do than you. :)

> That Windohs apps don't run on Mac OS?

Who said anything about windows apps and MacOS? You seem to be
taking the opportunity to spread some off topic points here.

> or maybe that AppleScript doesn't run on windohs?

I don't know about that?
 
> May I point out the fantabulous number of printer drivers on Windohs?

Can't deny that. :)
Printers are a breeze to install in windows.

> May I point out lousy programming by those who port crappy drivers from
> windohs to Mac and manage to make life difficult on the Mac also?

It's an issue of frequency. The Mac gives headaches far less
frequently with hardware installs. PC's are themselves improving
however. I was simply making the point that Apple's proprietary
standard aids in it's reliability. You support the point by your
mentioning that third party drivers mess things up for the Mac as
well.
 
> sure you can't use an ADB serial device on non macs, but not USB is the
> standard on both sides of the fence.

Clean up the english there. I'm not really certain what you are
saying. I'd have to make assumptions.


-- 
-=Ali=- 

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From: josco@ibm.net                                     05-Sep-99 12:11:04
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 04:16:14
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net>


Steven C. Den Beste wrote:

> On Sat, 04 Sep 1999 21:04:06 -0400, Joseph recycled some holes into the
> following pattern:
>
> >http://cnn.com/TECH/computing/9909/03/linux.alpha.idg/index.html
>
> Petreley's track record on predictions is none too good.
>
> First, notice that he's listed as "editorial director of LinuxWorld"; do you
> think he's going to stand up and say "Linux is gonna die, guys, NT is
> forever; my meal ticket doesn't have a chance and I'm gonna use this
> opportunity to tell you all what fools you are for trying to make it work"?

Hey I also noticed he's respected enough to write for CNN and you're not.  But
why slime people?

If he thought NT was going to win he would be on the editorial board of NT
magazine and he'd be rah-rah for NT.  What you're noticing is his consistency.

> I still have the last couple issues of "OS/2 Magazine" and even when the
> editorial staff KNEW that the end was coming for them and that OS/2 was in
> deep trouble, they STILL slanted their editorials positively and tried to
> put a cheery face on things. Writers write what they think their audiences
> want to hear, or at least are willing to tolerate.

I have my issues too -- to which issues are you referring.  I'd like to verify
what you said since most people would think you were making up some bullshit.

> The problem is that Petreley has done this in the past, in a big way.
> Remember that he quite his job at InfoWorld to be editorial director at
> NCWorld magazine, and started predicting that the PC was dead and that
> everyone would be using thin clients within a short interval?

You're a very dishonest person to misrepresent people and then criticize them.
I don't remember him saying what you claim.   Not at all.   In fact what you
are
saying is so extreme it's not even sensible -- "everyone would be using thin
clients"  Help me out here since I think you're making up bullshit and then
offered us URLs on off topic distractions.  Nick gave a URL to his past
prediction.  You should have addressed it.

You could have proven ALPHA NT is real and LINUX support is phony.  You could
have proven MS hasn't announced they have a thin client edition of MS Office.
You could have proven cross platform Star Office was a loser.  maybe you could
have found a reference that SUN would stop the OS/2 edition.

> NCWorld magazine is a fading memory, and Petreley is back at InfoWorld. The
> PC continues to sell strongly. The NC revolution never happened.
>
> Here are some other interesting predictions:

No.  Let us stick to the topic.
NT ALPHA has been killed.  NT is only x86 based.  NT has an Hardware
Abstraction
Layer (HAL) but it's x86 based.  OS/2 is x86 based but it's much faster --- no
HAL.
Compaq supports development on LINUX, not NT.  The question is why -- not if
it's true or if Peterely has a bias.  You haven't offered anything but a
personal attack on Mr Peterely's credibility.  Meanwhile Compaq ALPHA (and SGI
MIPS) adopt(s) LINUX.

Windows2000 hasn't shipped yet despite the promise it would be out by years
before now.  Thin client computing is NO a failure for not replacing the PC in 
a
shorter time -- as if it needs to replace all PCs.  It is a success!  MS has
pubically adopted thin client computing and serrver based computing prior to
Windows2000 shipping.  You have to set the bar really low in order to clear
it.
In fact, it's now on the floor -- jump Mr. Den Beste.


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From: josco@ibm.net                                     05-Sep-99 12:20:03
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 04:16:14
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net>


Steven C. Den Beste wrote:

> On Sun, 05 Sep 1999 13:01:27 GMT, Gilbert Saint-flour recycled some holes
> into the following pattern:
>
> >In <380109af.369797018@news-server>, on 05 Sep 1999 at 00:01,
> >sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste) said:
> >
> >>On Sat, 04 Sep 1999 21:04:06 -0400, Joseph recycled some holes into the
> >>following pattern:
> >
> >>>http://cnn.com/TECH/computing/9909/03/linux.alpha.idg/index.html
> >
> >>Petreley's track record on predictions is none too good.
> >
> ><big snip>
> >
> >You think the glass is half-empty, perhaps it's half-full.  Petreley's
> >biased towards Linux just like you're biased towards Microsoft and, BTW,
> >why you waste so much time on an OS/2 advocacy forum is a mystery to me.
> >
> >Some of Petreley's predictions turned out wrong (you cited a number of
> >those), a number of others turned out right (of course, you don't mention
> >any of them).  His 1996 prediction regarding the fate of NT on Alpha was
> >indeed right on the money - see http://www.idg.net/go.cgi?id=157884
> >
> >Gilbert Saint-flour
> >
>
> Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
>
> The point is that Petreley's attitude towards Microsoft is invariably
> negative. Since Microsoft is not always perfect (God knows) sometimes he'll
> be right because of that. But sometimes Microsoft does good things, and
> sometimes Microsoft succeeds. And then he's wrong. So the fact that he's
> predicting the downfall of NT at the hands of Linux is best described as
> "non-news"; there's no information there, his attitude in this is a foregone
> conclusion, and his opinion doesn't inform.

I don't think he predicted the downfall of NT at the hands of LINUX. He
explained that LINUX needed the hear mentality to beat NT.  He explained why
Compaq and SGI adopted LINUX and not NT.  You on the other hand make no
counter
explaination -- rather you poke and poke at Mr. Peteretly as NT has become a
x86
specific OS.  NT becomes more and more like OS/2.

> Also, the subject of this thread is wrong. NT (or its lineal descendants) is
> not x86 only. NT4 shipped with support for three other platforms, and
> Microsoft is hot-and-heavy in development of NT for Merced, which is not
> considered part of the x86 family.

Has Merced or Windows2000 shipped? No.

Has NT ALPHA been terminated?  Yes.
Has NT PPC been terminated?  Yes.
Has NT Mips been terminalted?  Yes.

Has IBM, SGI and Compaq recently adopted LINUX for PPC, MIPS and ALPHA.  Yes,
yes and yes.


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From: Rob.Churchill@tesco.net                           05-Sep-99 19:58:28
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 05:58:21
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: Rob.Churchill@tesco.net (Rob Churchill)

On Sun, 05 Sep 1999 16:33:56 GMT, lumpstick@hotmail.com (LK) wrote:

>In article <37d084f5.18949139@news.tesco.net>, Rob.Churchill@tesco.net (Rob
Churchill) wrote:
>>On 2 Sep 1999 06:37:02 -0500, donjoe@example.com (Don Joe - see
>>signature) wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>
>>>>I'd love to see how the user with the restore disk manages when
>>>>he/she attempts a restore after changing their video card, sound
>>>>card and adding a network card at their local dealers.
>>>
>>>Wouldn't 95/98 detect that automatically, and walk the user through the
steps?
>>>
>>>
>>in theory perhaps...
>>
>>I recently installed a very standard, boringly generic 4MB PCI
>>graphics card on a PC running win95 that I gave to my dad when I
>>upgraded. Win95 detected it, and walked me through the installation,
>>and then insisted it didn't exist. Four hours later, having used all
>>the skills developed in a youth spent playing badly written text-based
>>adventures ( viz: try every possible combination, no matter how
>>illogical, and search every corner, no matter how unlikely ) I had it
>>up and running.
>>
>>That's why they call it Plug and Pray.
>
>
>Quite contrary to my experience of installing a Diamond Viper AGP V550, US 
>Robotics 56k modem, a Toshiba DVD drive, an HP CDR, and a Hollywood ReelMagic 

>Card in about an hour total (including unhooking the cables, opening the 
>case, etc.), and never having a problem getting the hardware recognized.  
>Seeing that you said "generic" PCI card, it was probably a piece of crap and 
>you should be ashamed to pass it on to a family member.

Well I'm glad you had such a happy experience with PnP.

The point remains:

1] 95/98 would *not* necessarily just 'walk the user through the
steps' as DonJoe said.

Furthermore:
2] The fact that it took me several hours to manually install the card
is the fault of the manufacturer, whose install disc and instructions
were certainly 'crap', even if their hardware now works perfectly
well. I'm not blaming W95 for *that*, but point 1] remains valid.

3] Your choleric attitude will lead you to an early grave.
Go and take some relaxation classes or something. It really wasn't a
particularly provocative post.

Rob.

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From: nn@nn.nn                                          05-Sep-99 16:44:18
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 05:58:22
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: "nn" <nn@nn.nn>

Re-boot in safe mode and delete the old video card, it would have taken you
about 4 minutes including screwing the little bolt in. You'd be surprised
what old hardware still shows up screwing up your new hardware when looking
at system properties in safe mode.



> In response to LK's post :
>
>
> > >I recently installed a very standard, boringly generic 4MB PCI
> > >graphics card on a PC running win95 that I gave to my dad when I
> > >upgraded. Win95 detected it, and walked me through the installation,
> > >and then insisted it didn't exist. Four hours later.....SNIPPED


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From: cirby@magicnet.net                                05-Sep-99 16:22:04
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 05:58:22
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)

<hobbyist@nospam.net> wrote:

> Yes, but try going down to the corner store to get a motherboard
> upgrade. 

Try doing that with a Dell, or a Compaq, or a Packard-Bell, or an
eMachine, or an IBM.

As pointed out here several times, well over *half* of the Wintel PCs sold
in the US have proprietary motherboards and other hardware.

-- 

Chad Irby         \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."

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From: uno@40th.com                                      05-Sep-99 20:50:00
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 05:58:22
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: uno@40th.com (uno@40th.com)

Joseph? (josco@ibm.net?) wrote (Sun, 05 Sep 1999 12:11:08 -0400):
>Hey I also noticed he's respected enough to write for CNN and you're not. 
But
>why slime people?

Hey, leave Petreley alone.  He used to be a diehard OS/2 nut.  Then
a diehard NC nut.  Then a diehard Java nut.  If he wants to be a
diehard Linux nut, let him (die as hard as he wants, just so long as
he buries himself again).

 '`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'
 Corne1 Huth  -  http://40th.com/
 Bullet database engines/servers 3.1  Win32-WinCE-OS2-Linux+

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From: malstrom@yolen.oit.umass.edu                      05-Sep-99 18:59:01
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 05:58:22
Subj: [OT] Thin clients pick up momentum

From: JM <malstrom@yolen.oit.umass.edu>

http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?99093.pithin.htm

Much to the chagrin of PC proponents, the thin-client movement appears to 
be picking up steam, with a rash of recent moves signaling the next step 
in the evolution of server-centric computing. 

Sun Microsystems this week will release its second attempt at a 
Java-based thin-client device this week, the first being the ill-fated 
JavaStation. The device comes on the heels of last week's announcement 
that Sun's newly acquired StarOffice and StarPortal office productivity 
software will be available for free download as well as for use over the 
Web. 

...

Interesting article, IBM is in it too.

-Jason

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From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               05-Sep-99 16:42:02
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 05:58:22
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste)

On Sun, 05 Sep 1999 12:11:08 -0400, Joseph recycled some holes into the
following pattern:

>
>
>Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 04 Sep 1999 21:04:06 -0400, Joseph recycled some holes into the
>> following pattern:
>>
>> >http://cnn.com/TECH/computing/9909/03/linux.alpha.idg/index.html
>>
>> Petreley's track record on predictions is none too good.
>>
>> First, notice that he's listed as "editorial director of LinuxWorld"; do
you
>> think he's going to stand up and say "Linux is gonna die, guys, NT is
>> forever; my meal ticket doesn't have a chance and I'm gonna use this
>> opportunity to tell you all what fools you are for trying to make it work"?
>
>Hey I also noticed he's respected enough to write for CNN and you're not. 
But
>why slime people?

He didn't write that for CNN. He wrote that for LinuxWorld. CNN copies
articles occasionally from various publications. And in LinuxWorld, this
article was "preaching to the choir".

But that didn't stop you from a gratuitous ad hominem against me, now did
it? (Why not take every opportunity to slime someone, after all?)

>If he thought NT was going to win he would be on the editorial board of NT
>magazine and he'd be rah-rah for NT.  What you're noticing is his
consistency.

Oh, he's consistent alright. He consistently predicts the worst for
Microsoft and its products. Since the good and the bad do both come for
everyone including Microsoft, occasionally he's actually right. But he's
only right by chance, not by craft.

Show me a case where he's ever said anything good about Microsoft or made a
positive prediction about their products, without it being phrased as a
left-handed compliment or without at least one swipe at them. Since
Microsoft *does* do well sometimes, and because Microsoft *does* create good
products sometimes (despite what you might think), if he was honest and open
minded then sometimes his reviews and/or predictions would be positive. But
they're not.

He's not making predictions; he's stroking his readership, which is
comprised primarily of Microsoft haters such as yourself. He's doing to
Microsoft what many of you seem to think that Mary Jo Foley does to OS/2. By
doing this he gets himself a steady readership.

You seem to think that the job of a columnist is to dispense the truth.
Nothing could be more wrong. Dispensing truth is what reporters are supposed
to do.

The job of a columnist is to attract attention and boost the readership.
Nothing more. Telling people what they want to hear is a time-honored method
of doing this. It's certainly got you hooked on him; you seem to
breathlessly read everything he writes, which generates page-hits for
whomever employs him. That's all they care about.

*They* don't keep score. They don't care whether he's right or wrong. All
they care is how much he gets read. Even if every single prediction he ever
made was wrong, they'd keep him writing as long as he got a lot of page
hits.

Which is why the comment about him being respected enough to write for CNN
doesn't hold water; veritas is not the basis on which that judgement was
made. It's ratings, my boy, not validity.


I learned a long ago that "they wouldn't print it if it weren't true" is
bogus.



Remember the three critical questions to use on any citation of authority?
Let's try them out here.

"Linux has a good chance of defeating NT."

"Who says?" Nick Petreley.
"Who's he?" An opinionated columnist for various publications, who despises
Microsoft. He makes his living writing columns which run Microsoft down, and
his readership consists largely of Linux lovers.
"How's he know?" He's guessing. He did no research, he consulted no other
people, he has no basis for his opinion at all except for a gut feel. No
relevant evidence was presented.

On that basis I find him not to be a convincing citation.

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
              -- Calvin

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From: pcguido@ibm.net                                   06-Sep-99 00:15:24
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 05:58:22
Subj: Re: Shrink-wrapped Software is Dead

From: pcguido@ibm.net

In <37D1C10B.848FC175@ibm.net>, Joseph <josco@ibm.net> writes:
|
|
|pcguido@ibm.net wrote:
|
|| In <37CE724E.54E0510C@ibm.net>, Joseph <josco@ibm.net> writes:
|| |
|| |As for my home PC.	I would like to NOT have to back up my PC data, not be
a systems admin
|| |at home.  PCs are a bad model. We all waste time with wintel hardware --
even when my OS
|| |is OS/2.  Yes, OS/2 doesn't need to be changed that often and when it does 
change its
|| |compatiblity with older software protects my investments.	   Still, all my 
financial data is
|| |on my PC and that scares me -- it can be lost.
||
|| The motto in the banking industry is: "Backed Up or Bankrupt".
||
|| Just which one do you want to be?
|
|I want to have my files on a server that is backed up by someone else for a
nominal fee.  Maybe
|5-50 MB of data I have is drop dead critical.	I use a JAZZ drive and keep a
copy of my data in a
|secure place outside of my locality, SanFancisco.
|
|I actually mail criticla files to myself on my free e-mail account and store
them there as I work
|on some projects.	I have 5MB of free storage they have never lost.  Isn't
that a hoot.  And it
|ain't a hotmail account.

Well, since Pac Bell can't figure out whether or not I can have DSL; and,
TCI can't make up their minds about which year I'll be "able to have a
cable modem next month", I guess I'll just stick with my DAT tape unit
and keeping one copy at my office...

Guido

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From: AmigaPhil@ping.be                                 05-Sep-99 23:27:20
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 05:58:22
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: "Philippe Duchenne" <AmigaPhil@ping.be>

Hello there Amiga User !
On 27-Aot-99  00:11:20, you wrote about Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of
anti-Microsoft banners :

> In article <830.907T2968T254613AmigaPhil@ping.be>,
>   "Philippe Duchenne" <AmigaPhil@ping.be> wrote:
>> A new collection of "Anti-Microsoft" Web banners is available at
>>
>>   <URL:http://www.ping.be/amigaphil/pic/SBull.html>
>>
>> Those are based on a "Microsoft FREE" seal (16 colors, Netscape palette
>> used)
>>
>> Other collections have been updated too :
>>
>>  - More cream pies for Bill Gates
>>    <URL:http://www.ping.be/amigaphil/pic/SBill.html>

>   I guess this kind of stuff appeals to people who have an inferiority
> complex.

You don't have much knowledge in psychology, do you ?

I personnally define this as an excessive reaction of people
fed up of being told to use this and that MS-stuff just to be
accepted in a community.

I don't find any inferiority complex manifestation in a claim
for the right to exist without bearing a particular label.
Examples ?
On the WWW, exclusion is no more just a question of using a product
that can achieve to do this or that, but is based on the product *IDENTITY*
I *DO* browse the Web without using Internet Explorer.  The more
I'm faced to a site that told me: "Sorry, you need Internet Explorer here",
the more I wish to reply: "NO, Internet Explorer is not *NEEDED* to surf
the World Wide Web".

I do that in the same idea I would say: "WAKE-UP: people are not all
white-skinned; but all people can talk to each others !"; only tunning
the slogan with a [not always well appreciated] mockering sens of humour.  



Philippe Duchenne <URL:http://www.ping.be/amigaphil/>
PGP ID : 9C07F6C1
Windows NT: The world's only 80 megabyte Solitaire game!

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From: AmigaPhil@ping.be                                 06-Sep-99 01:39:11
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 05:58:22
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: "Philippe Duchenne" <AmigaPhil@ping.be>

Hello there Tim Mayer !
On 26-Aot-99  19:51:29, you wrote about Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of
anti-Microsoft banners :

>> Looking at the site, I didn't think there were _intended_ to be funny.
>>

> Are you kidding. Your telling me that "Safe Hex" is not suppose to be funny?
> I understand the joke, but just did not find it humorous. The pictures of
> Gates with pie on his face I found to be a little distasteful, but were an
> obvious attempt at humor.

> Actually, I must correct myself here, I did find a few of them to be funny.
> Especially the "Who does he want to own today", "Where does he want to go
> today" and "Sorry Bill, I choose where I want to go" as well as a few
> others.

Funny or... ?

Well, some are based on humourous statements (like the now famous
Bill Gates' "640k") and popular Microsoft jokes and one-liners.
Some are denunciations of Microsoft's bad practises.
Some are aimed to restaure computer history:
 "No, Microsoft did not innovate the mouse"
 "No, Microsoft did not innovate Internet"
Some were drawn to counter dis-information:
 "You don't NEED Word to do word processing"
 "You don't NEED Internet explorer to surf the WWW"
Some give hints on how to use MS-product in a more user-friendly way.
Others inform of the existence of alternatives and open and free standards.

All of them have a mockering touch of humour (the cream pie), but the
base idea is to spread a real message.


>>
>> Do you really think that everybody who advocates open standards must be
>> making a joke at Microsoft's expense?
>>

> Although some are specifically supporting open standards, many of them are
> simply bashing.

That's right.

It's a demagogic decision I took as I found out that bashing usually
proves to be popular, and jokes spread very fast.  And to be totally honest,
I sometimes like that too !  :-)




Philippe Duchenne <URL:http://www.ping.be/amigaphil/>
PGP ID : 9C07F6C1
And remember kids, DON'T try this at home!

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From: AmigaPhil@ping.be                                 06-Sep-99 01:06:21
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 05:58:22
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: "Philippe Duchenne" <AmigaPhil@ping.be>

Hello there irfon !
On 26-Aot-99  14:01:04, you wrote about Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of
anti-Microsoft banners :

> I totally understand where people are coming from on this issue,
> and I notice that this is cross-posted to a wide variety of
> newsgroups addressing different OS communities,

Yes, as people here have knowledge (experience) of something else
than Wintel; and advocacy groups are probably the best places to
find people ready to defend alternatives to Wintel.

> but I honestly think that it is the wrong track to take,
> both for those of us
> who are relatively new on the scene (I'm posting from the BeOS
> group) and those in the more established communities.

Hmmm, maybe.

A banner campaign such the one I started at
 <URL:http://www.ping.be/amigaphil/README.html> is probably not
the best way to declare that something is going wrong and we must
step in before it's getting worst, I must admit.
It's just my 2p.

> As soon as you define yourself solely in terms of another, I
> think you lose a lot.  I've never been a fan of political
> campaigns where the whole push for a candidate centers around
> what's bad about the other candidate, and similarly, I always
> wince when somebody asks what should interest them about BeOS
> and people respond saying, "Well, it's not made by Microsoft!"

Yes, that's a weak argument.
But since, there's a point here:
Not using Microsoft's products at all give you a better chance
to not being tied to Everything Microsoft.

> If a product cannot stand on its own merits, then it's not much
> of a product, and I'm sure none of us would like to think that
> we are using our chosen platforms for that reason and that reason
> alone.

> Here's an exercise we should all do :

> Step 1 : Sit back and think only positive thoughts about your
> computer.  Think of the thinks you like to *do* with it.  Think
> about when you are happiest and what you're using your computer
> to do when that occurs.

> Step 2 : Write a short essay to your favourite advocacy group
> explaining what you do with your computer that makes you happy.
> Do not use the word Microsoft, and do not compare your platform
> to any other platform.  When composing this essay, try to
> express yourself using only positive language.  Do not mention
> what you're glad your computer does *not* do.  Mention only
> what you're glad it *does* do.

Ok.  But preaching in your own chapel won't help newcomers to have
a wider range of solutions to choose from.

How about people who think a computer is a machine that run Windows,
that Microsoft innovated the mouse and the GUI, that you need Word
to do word processing, that you need IE to surf the Web, ...

> Step 3 : Lie back in bed before going to sleep, and work
> through this scenario -- Microsoft has disappeared from the
> world, along with all of their products.  (This is not a fantasy
> of mine, just part of the setup.)  Think about your platform
> in such a world.  What defines it?  What makes it unique?
> What drives its users and breathes life into it?  What sustains
> developers' passion?

Then pray that Apple won't take Microsoft's place and start to
re-build computer history and future for it's own profit.
Pray that your favourite development teams won't be buy-out and
stop writing applications and drivers for your machine.
Pray that nobody will try to convince you you need a Mac and MacOS
to be on Internet.

 :-)

Think of what you can do to prevent any attemp to create a new
monopoly control on the computer industry.
Think of any help you can contribute to build better common
"languages" for the whole world to share the happiest computer experiences.

> These are the kinds of issues and thoughts we should concentrate
> on if we want to succeed, or even if we want to have a healthy,
> happy computing experience.  Spending your life hating
> Microsoft is a waste of energy which could be used to forward
> the positive cause of your platform instead.  In the words of
> Henry Rollins, "You're giving them too much of yourself."  Hatred
> is the path to the dark side, young jedi.  Use your powers for
> good, not evil.

Hating is not constructive, indeed.  But closing our eyes (or worst,
closing other people eyes) on a menace to the freedom of the choice
we can expect to have in our computing experiences is not, either !




Philippe Duchenne <URL:http://www.ping.be/amigaphil/>
PGP ID : 9C07F6C1
A dirty book is seldom dusty

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From: AmigaPhil@ping.be                                 06-Sep-99 02:48:11
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 05:58:22
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: "Philippe Duchenne" <AmigaPhil@ping.be>

Hello there Richard Murray !
On 31-Aot-99  19:40:31, you wrote about Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of
anti-Microsoft banners :

> Two wrongs don't make a right.

> So M$ dish dirt. Then we dish dirt. And before you know it, it'll be going
> out live and hosted by Jerry Springer. Erm, yeah. Thanks but no thanks.

As I tried to explain in a previous post, this kind of campaign is
probably not the best way to put a spoke in Microsoft's wheel while they are
at the conquest of the world.  But I hope this counter-propaganda will
bring curiosity to some unaware people:

 "Why are all those people bashing Bill Gates ?"
 "What's wrong with Microsoft ?"
 "Why is this guy telling me my web site is not user-friendly ?"
 ... 


> Firstly, I quite *LIKE* MSIE5 [...]

Nothing wrong here.  It's your choice and that's good.
Hopefully, you are aware as to what to avoid to respect the choices of
other people.
(Hope your Web site won't bear a "Best Viewed with MSIE" logo  ;-)  )

>>> A new collection of "Anti-Microsoft" Web banners is available at

> Have you read the Halloween documents yet? That says more than a bunch of
> banners ever could. Try thinking of the possible implications of some of the
> comments made... Storage+, comoditised protocols, all in the power of one
> company and one man.

Sure !
I would have build such an informative site if I had time and patience.
But other people do that better than I can.
The banner campaign is my humble attemp to defend the same cause.

> Philippe Duchenne is Belgian, yes?

Yes.

> Does he know that
> Bill Gates has enough money to pay off Belgium's entire national debt?!?

No I didn't.  But I'm not surprised either.
What's the point here ?  Does that make Bill Gates a holy man ?

Money does not wash more clean.  Otherwise the drug mafia could use part
of its dirty money in donations to hospitals and gain acceptance and
impunity.  (Er... ?   ;-)  )

> Anyway, to describe something as "Good because it isn't MicroSoft" is worse
> than useless. Everything had merits (yeah, even Windows), the way to spin it
> is to promote your product and make the competition look bad without
> actually inferring anything or directly stating "<product> is <condition>".

Agreed.
"Good because it isn't Microsoft" is an easy short-cut reply to those
"Best with Microsoft" or "Only possible with Microsoft" we are inundated with.

>>> Those are based on a "Microsoft FREE" seal (16 colors, Netscape palette
>>> used)

> One way you could use to be overcritical of Windows is the wealth of the
> company.
> Compare, for example, RISC OS (I'm posting from comp.sys.acorn.advocacy) and
> Windows.

> RISC OS has scrollbars that change size and fairly accurately reflect not
> only the scroll position, but the amount on-screen relative to the total
> amount. This message, currently, has a scrollbar half the size of the scroll
> slider space, because half of it is visible.

Would you like me to draw a "RISC OS has a better scrollbars handling than
Windows" banner and spread it outside the Acorn community ?  ;-)

Who knows ?  It could help to make a few people curious about what RISC OS
is.

> Win95's font smoothing works. But it is evil. To get MSIE to display a
> smoothed font, I need to choose "Larger" or "Largest" as font size. So it
> all looks like one of those cute little Ladybird books. If I choose a size
> like "smaller", so I can see a decent amount on-screen at any one time, it
> reverts to ugly Truetype line display.
> Additionally, the smoothing either blurs the text, or makes it look bold. Or
> both.

Same here (but that won't fit in a banner :-) ).
And you could even catch the attention of a few more people.

> I think we can flame MicroSoft to hell and back for those omissions. Because
> Acorn created something good and usable on a budget that is probably
> laughably small in computer-company circles. And it wasn't put together by a
> team of coders several hundred strong.

This is a deja vu story for many non-Wintel users, believe me.

> MicroSoft has accumulated more money than some countries have, and they
> still release buggy piles of crap; with MSIE 5 a notable exception; there is
> NO excuse.


> As for MSIE5; my own PC is quite stable. Win95 only crashes these days with
> the video grabber stiffs - and you can't blame 'doze for that. MSIE5 was
> nice, integrated, responsive. All this on a P75 upclocked to 100MHz. It did
> the web stuff, and stayed online for two hours without bombing out.
> Impressive. Now if only the base OS was that good. :-)

We can't blame Microsoft for everything they do.  Microsoft *DID* many
good for the whole computer industry.  But the way they are using their
power to erode other people's freedom to grab even more power is just
unacceptable.




Philippe Duchenne <URL:http://www.ping.be/amigaphil/>
PGP ID : 9C07F6C1
WindowsError:002 No error . . . yet.

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From: AmigaPhil@ping.be                                 05-Sep-99 22:42:04
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 05:58:22
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: "Philippe Duchenne" <AmigaPhil@ping.be>

Hello there Little Piggy !
On 25-Aot-99  08:05:51, you wrote about Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of
anti-Microsoft banners :

> On Wed, 25 Aug 1999 20:57:37 -0700, "Tim Mayer" <tmayer@pathcom.com>
> wrote:

>>What a waste of WEB space -- these are really dumb.
>>

> Don't be too hard on him... it's not his fault, he's Belgian.. :)

 8-O    Ok, let's say you mark one point.

My turn:

 Some people dream it, a Belgian did it !  :-P

Does that make 1-1 ?  ;-)



Philippe Duchenne <URL:http://www.ping.be/amigaphil/>
PGP ID : 9C07F6C1
I'm not a stranger, only a friend you haven't met.

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From: hobbyist@nospam.net                               05-Sep-99 19:51:22
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 05:58:22
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hobbyist_=A9?= <hobbyist@nospam.net>

In response to Chad Irby's post :

> <hobbyist@nospam.net> wrote:
> 
> > Yes, but try going down to the corner store to get a motherboard
> > upgrade. 
> 
> Try doing that with a Dell, or a Compaq, or a Packard-Bell, or an
> eMachine, or an IBM.
> 
> As pointed out here several times, well over *half* of the Wintel PCs sold
> in the US have proprietary motherboards and other hardware.

But you are reinforcing my point. All these boards are designed
to run multiple OS's including the one which is the center of our
discussion, windows.

The MacOS is installed on Apple computers only, using one
proprietary motherboard type only. No unique idiosyncracies with
various types of motherboards and their chipsets to consider.
This is what increases the reliability and consistency of
behaviour when adding hardware.
 
-- 
-=Ali=- 

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From: sundown@mail.saintmail.net                        05-Sep-99 20:55:02
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 05:58:22
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: "Sundown" <sundown@mail.saintmail.net>

>> Yes, but try going down to the corner store to get a motherboard
>> upgrade.
>
>Try doing that with a Dell, or a Compaq, or a Packard-Bell, or an
>eMachine, or an IBM.
>
>As pointed out here several times, well over *half* of the Wintel PCs sold
>in the US have proprietary motherboards and other hardware.


    No they dont, 99% of them have ATX mobo's. Have you ever looked in one?
My friends 600 dollar packard bell and my new 1600 dollar IBM Aptiva both
have ATX Motherboards. Mini-ATX I believe, these are some small MOBO's.
Again, my friends cheap packard bell has no proprietary parts, it has built
on video and sound, which can be disabled and I did that when I went to his
house and I put in a new video card. My Aptiva contains all standard parts
as well. Might want to get your facts straight.

- Jacob Fuller
- Ultima Online Player
- The Noble Sundown, Grandmaster Mage, Atlantic
- Sundown, Journeyman Warrior, Mytharria Reborn
- http://dreamweaver.dyndns.com/ (This server is really fun)


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From: monty@nooky.gov                                   06-Sep-99 01:00:25
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 05:58:22
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: monty@nooky.gov (Montgomery Burns)

In article <hLTSN5GzCRBZxdZLLN1IBtFR7P4z@4ax.com>,
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hobbyist_=A9?= <hobbyist@nospam.net> wrote:

>In response to Montgomery Burns's post :
>Yes, but try going down to the corner store to get a motherboard
>upgrade. Buy a Mac compatible motherboard from any source and see
>who manufactures it.

If we restrict the definition to a Processor upgrade, then there is
various 3rd party processor upgrade vendors, Newer Technology is one of
them, There are upgrades for machine as early as PowerBook 1400 to Apple
4400 and third party MacOS clones (Motorola etc.) 

>
>> Exactly what point are you trying to make,
>
>The motherboard and how it interacts with the OS and peripherals
>is a major factor in plug and play reliability.

And that has been mostly trouble free so far (In that past 9 years that I
know of)


>> Ali Joon?
>
>Ali alone will do than you. :)

Sorry, slipped my kybd!

>> That Windohs apps don't run on Mac OS?
>
>Who said anything about windows apps and MacOS? You seem to be
>taking the opportunity to spread some off topic points here.

I've heard that argument brought up by many a user, "but If i get a
windows I can copy the apps from work, if I buy a Mac I have to buy all
new apps."

>> or maybe that AppleScript doesn't run on windohs?
>
>I don't know about that?

That's another complaint against Mac, believe it or not. Applescript is
the system level interapplication communication language.
             ^^^^^

>> May I point out the fantabulous number of printer drivers on Windohs?
>
>Can't deny that. :)
>Printers are a breeze to install in windows.
>
>> May I point out lousy programming by those who port crappy drivers from
>> windohs to Mac and manage to make life difficult on the Mac also?
>
>It's an issue of frequency. The Mac gives headaches far less
>frequently with hardware installs. PC's are themselves improving
>however. I was simply making the point that Apple's proprietary
>standard aids in it's reliability. You support the point by your
>mentioning that third party drivers mess things up for the Mac as
>well.

Yes, but strictly speaking, I think the propriety stuff and API calls is
laid out in "Inside Macintosh" for the programmers to use, I think Apple
has a better track record than M$ (since M$ is the largest one in the
field)

>> sure you can't use an ADB serial device on non macs, but not USB is the
>> standard on both sides of the fence.
>
>Clean up the english there. I'm not really certain what you are
>saying. I'd have to make assumptions.

Before the G3 and iMacs, serial devices used the Apple Desktop Bus schema,
which was replaced by the Universal Serial Bus. USB was a joint spec by
manufactureres from the wintel side.


MB

(newsgroups line trimmed)

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From: wsonna@ibm.net                                    06-Sep-99 01:40:23
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 05:58:22
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: wsonna@ibm.net (William Sonna)

On Sun, 5 Sep 1999 17:32:59, sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste)
wrote:

> On Sun, 05 Sep 1999 13:01:27 GMT, Gilbert Saint-flour recycled some holes
> into the following pattern:
> 
> >In <380109af.369797018@news-server>, on 05 Sep 1999 at 00:01,
> >sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste) said:
> >
> >>On Sat, 04 Sep 1999 21:04:06 -0400, Joseph recycled some holes into the
> >>following pattern:
> >
> >>>http://cnn.com/TECH/computing/9909/03/linux.alpha.idg/index.html
> >
> >>Petreley's track record on predictions is none too good.
> >
> ><big snip>
> >
> >You think the glass is half-empty, perhaps it's half-full.  Petreley's
> >biased towards Linux just like you're biased towards Microsoft and, BTW,
> >why you waste so much time on an OS/2 advocacy forum is a mystery to me.  
> >
> >Some of Petreley's predictions turned out wrong (you cited a number of
> >those), a number of others turned out right (of course, you don't mention
> >any of them).  His 1996 prediction regarding the fate of NT on Alpha was
> >indeed right on the money - see http://www.idg.net/go.cgi?id=157884
> >
> >Gilbert Saint-flour 
> >
> 
> Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
> 
> The point is that Petreley's attitude towards Microsoft is invariably
> negative. Since Microsoft is not always perfect (God knows) sometimes he'll
> be right because of that. But sometimes Microsoft does good things, and
> sometimes Microsoft succeeds. And then he's wrong. So the fact that he's
> predicting the downfall of NT at the hands of Linux is best described as
> "non-news"; there's no information there, his attitude in this is a foregone
> conclusion, and his opinion doesn't inform.
> 
> 
> Also, the subject of this thread is wrong. NT (or its lineal descendants) is
> not x86 only. NT4 shipped with support for three other platforms, and
> Microsoft is hot-and-heavy in development of NT for Merced, which is not
> considered part of the x86 family.
> 
> --------
> Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
> Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste
> 
> "We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
>               -- Calvin

I would suggest that you take the time to actually read the article.  
Its about why the author thinks Linux on the alpha will not suffer the
same fate as NT on the alpha.

Does the author's repeated use of the term "herd mentality" to 
describe the choice of the Microsoft brand name by so many offend you?

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From: Rob.Churchill@tesco.net                           06-Sep-99 01:48:22
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 05:58:22
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: Rob.Churchill@tesco.net (Rob Churchill)

On Sun, 5 Sep 1999 16:44:36 -0400, "nn" <nn@nn.nn> wrote:

>Re-boot in safe mode and delete the old video card, it would have taken you
>about 4 minutes including screwing the little bolt in. You'd be surprised
>what old hardware still shows up screwing up your new hardware when looking
>at system properties in safe mode.
>
>
>
>> In response to LK's post :
>>
>>
>> > >I recently installed a very standard, boringly generic 4MB PCI
>> > >graphics card on a PC running win95 that I gave to my dad when I
>> > >upgraded. Win95 detected it, and walked me through the installation,
>> > >and then insisted it didn't exist. Four hours later.....SNIPPED
>
>
Thanks for the tip nn, I'll bear it in mind in future, but in this
case I'd recently put in a new motherboard, CPU & HDD and installed
W95on the blank drive, so there was no old video card to delete..
except the vga graphics on the motherboard, which seem an unlikely
source for the problem.
The real difficulty once I'd given up on 'Add/Remove Hardware' was
that the only driver that worked was archived away in a dusty corner
of the install CD, while all the readme's and help files, and the
on-disc install wizard all pointed to other drivers on the disc, none
of which were the right one - as poor Mr LK with his high blood
pressure said: 'crap'.
Guess not everything is Bill Gates' fault.

Rob.

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         06-Sep-99 01:44:24
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 05:58:22
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [rhetorical]

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Karel Jansens writes:

>>>>> Somehow it's not for me. It's funny, but I really _need_ for some part
>>>>> of my arm or hand to move, or I get completely confused. I tried one 
>>>>> of those subnotebooks once that had like a large trackpoint-like 
>>>>> device positioned next to the screen, sort of like a trackball that 
>>>>> didn't roll. It was a complete disaster. I bought myself a second-hand
>>>>> HP Omnibook 425 with the pop-out mouse and I'm perfectly happy with 
>>>>> that one.

>>>> How long did you try it out?  I was skeptical of the TrackPoint before
>>>> I tried it, and even after using it for a while, still preferred a real
>>>> mouse, but with experience, I came to like it more and more.

>>> Oh, they're okay as a replacement, I guess. Even the little popsickle 
>>> mouse on the Omnibook needs some getting used to. I'm still looking for 
>>> something that would make both navigating and drawing easy. I'll start
>>> saving for that screen.

>> Or you could draw on paper and scan the result.

> Yes.  Unfortunately, that has a now a very low geek-factor.

Is that a bad thing?

> *Everybody* has a scanner (everybody except me, that is),

Nope.  I don't have one.  The one I've used at work doesn't count.

> but a touch-screen desktop monitor, ah, that'll impress the relatives...
> :^). of course.

Is that the purpose, to impress relatives?

>>>>> OK, not perfectly: it runs Windows 3.1 and Office from a ROM card. But
>>>>> I've been talking to some guys about getting a decent OS to run off 
>>>>> it.

>>>> Must load the system pretty quickly.  Also difficult to apply patches.

>>> Part of the software executes as XIP from ROM, but there are shadow 
>>> system directories set up on the C-drive (a whopping 40 megs of PCMCIA 
>>> flash). It has some drawbacks (only runs in Standard mode, lousy for DOS
>>> apps), but Win3.1 isn't that bad if you're not running any mission
>>> critical stuff and remember to back up often. And Word 2.0 and Excel 4.0
>>> are - dare I say it? - not so bad as apps go. They don't suffer from bloat
>>> and get the job done. As a note-taker, this baby flies!

>> Bloat by today's standards.  "640 k ought to be enough for anybody."
>> Name the speaker.

> Aren't kids taught that line in school nowadays? It was George 
> Washington, right?

Got it, first try!

> Seriously, though: Word 2 ain't half bad when it comes to 
> wordprocessing. I still think Ami Pro 3 was better, but it would start
> up more slowly on the Omnibook (executed from plain old RAM, instead 
> of zippy XIP ROM), so I stick to Word. The fileformat is pretty 
> universally recognised too, so I can easily import files into a 
> serious wordprocessor.

I actually solved a recent problem involving DeScribe's inability to
import an RTF file.  I also had access to the original Word format,
and I have StarOffice installed on my Solaris computer, and it imported
the Word format file just fine.

>>>>>>>>> I've been seriously contemplating forking out for a touch-screen 
>>>>>>>>> monitor and sink that into my worktop, so that it would only
protrude 
>>>>>>>>> a couple of centimeters. Or maybe buy one of those lightpens; I
worked
>>>>>>>>> with one that had drivers for Warp and it had a pretty good 
>>>>>>>>> resolution, good enough for serious graphics work (I tried tablets, 
>>>>>>>>> but I loose hand-eye coordination very quickly).

>>>>>>>> I've seen touch screens in retail locations (the Muse at Tower
Records,
>>>>>>>> for example).  I find them to not work more often than they do work.
>>>>>>>> And I dislike finger smears on monitor screens.

>>>>>>> I've had some pleasant experiences, but I agree on the finger smudges.
>>>>>>> I'd probably use a pen.

>>>>>> A pen point does offer higher precision than a blunt fingertip.

>>>>> I tried out a 17" touch screen monitor at 1024x768 resolution and I 
>>>>> was very happy. Until the salesguy told me the price...

>>>> More than both arms and both legs?

>>> The phrase "a pound of flesh" did come up on several occasions, but he
>>> wouldn't take it.

>> Maybe because the spirit was willing, but the flesh was weak?

> Yeah, I'll go back and tell him that. Somehow I don't think a 
> salesminion would be inclined to start a semi-philosophical debate, 
> even if he could understand the words...

The old line "If he knew anything about [stereos|electronics|computers], he
wouldn't be working in a <insert your favorite mass market stereo,
electronics,
or computer outlet>" comes to mind.

>>>>>>>>>>>> I also still use the Microsoft FORTRAN compiler when I need to
create a
>>>>>>>>>>>> 16-bit executable for somebody running DOS.  It has some bugs
that were
>>>>>>>>>>>> reported, acknowledged as reproducible by the developers, but
never fixed,
>>>>>>>>>>>> even after four years.  Microsoft has since discontinued
development of
>>>>>>>>>>>> their FORTRAN compiler, referring customers to Digital (now
Compaq)
>>>>>>>>>>>> instead.

>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry, I try not to program, especially not in FORTRAN.

>>>>>>>>>> Still a good choice for number-crunching applications.  You really
>>>>>>>>>> should look into the latest standard, namely Fortran 95, if your
>>>>>>>>>> objections are due to lack of certain features; it may now have
them
>>>>>>>>>> (except no RECORD statement; derived types are handled with a TYPE
>>>>>>>>>> statement, something that Fred Emmerich still hasn't learned).

>>>>>>>>> Dave, you don't get it: it's not the features, it's the talent. I've 

>>>>>>>>> found out that I'm as good at programming as Bill Clinton is at 
>>>>>>>>> celibacy.

>>>>>>>> So your remark wasn't specific to FORTRAN, despite the reference to
it
>>>>>>>> especially.

>>>>>>> No, I can safely say that I'm equally untalented in just about any 
>>>>>>> programming language. I'm the sort of guy that can mess up a 
>>>>>>> Logo-program.

>>>>>> To be at the mercy of other programmers!

>>>>> I tried.
>>>>> Lordy, did I try!

>>>> Fortran 90 has actually gotten easier to use.  The array syntax makes
>>>> it much more natural to write array expressions, compared to using
>>>> nested DO loops and indices.

>>>>> I have now accepted that I'm just not good at it.

>>>> Then again, if your job doesn't involve the need to write programs,
>>>> you can survive just fine.

>>>>>>>>>>>>> The rough I don't mind, it's the stupid that gets on my nerves.

>>>>>>>>>>>> And you're seeing plenty of it from the so-called "detractors".

>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not taking sides (Hah! as if that's going to be believed!),
but 
>>>>>>>>>>> here's a shortlist:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 1. Your opinions are only valid if they coincide with everyone
else's.

>>>>>>>>>> Yes, they do seem to take that position rather frequently.

>>>>>>>>>>> 2. Fights from another geological era need to be continuously
raked 
>>>>>>>>>>> up.

>>>>>>>>>> Which "another geological era" are you referring to?

>>>>>>>>> Let's just say "a long time ago" then.

>>>>>>>> In a galaxy far away?

>>>>>>> Heh. Don't we all wish.

>>>>>> Now, let's not start speaking for "we all".

>>>>> All right, "some of us", then.

>>>> Luke, Han, Darth, Obe...

>>> I don't see them posting often. Is one of them Kelly Robinson?

>> Before or after being turned by the Dark Side?

> I always picture Mr Robinson (AKA... ) as that little *ss-h*le 
> creature with Jabba, you know, the one you want to hit repeatedly on 
> the head, just to make it stop laughing... (so's I can go back to 
> "studying" Leia' bikini, heh heh heh!)

Gotta be better than Bill McNeil's Speedo (a.k.a. the late Phil
Hartmann).

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         06-Sep-99 01:48:27
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 05:58:22
Subj: Re: Tholen's thoughts

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Gilbert Saint-flour writes:

> Esther Schindler wrote:

>> This has nothing to do with NPR or the media.
>> If you insist on taking a tangent, please do the rest of us 
>> the kindness of changing the message subject.

> I'm not trying to defend Tholen who deserves a lot of what he gets around
> here,

On what basis do you say that?  Since when does correction of misinformation
or the challenging of FUD deserve abuse?

> but, for the sake of fairness, you ought to make the same comment to
> Gerben Bergman who started the Outlook tangent without changing the
> subject.

Inconsistency is common here.  Esther hasn't said anything about Brad's
lies.  Of course, that's assuming she's bothered to read them.

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         06-Sep-99 01:54:09
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 05:58:22
Subj: Re: Schindler's thoughts

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Esther Schindler writes:

> Gilbert Saint-flour wrote:

>> I'm not trying to defend Tholen who deserves a lot of what he gets around
>> here, but, for the sake of fairness, you ought to make the same comment to
>> Gerben Bergman who started the Outlook tangent without changing the
>> subject.

> True, Gilbert, but Gerben didn't post the same essential message 
> multiple times.

So what?  Should subject lines be changed only after the same essential
message has been posted multiple times?  Or did you just respond with a
non sequitur?  And are you suggesting that I had posted the "same essential
message" multiple times?  If so, then perhaps a good way to stop those
multiple postings is to get Brad Wardell to read the evidence for his lies
and be "man enough" to admit that he is wrong.

> I wish _everyone_ would change message subjects when the topics 
> change. There's nothing as annoying as downloading a thread ostensibly
> about TopicA and discovering that half the messages are about TopicB. 
> Or, perhaps, if you're interested in TopicB, learning that you'd 
> missed a whole conversation about the subject.

Not every news reader knows how to group messages containing an ongoing
discussion if someone changes the subject line.

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From: esther@bitranch.com                               06-Sep-99 02:27:10
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 05:58:22
Subj: On using useful subject headers

From: esther@bitranch.com (Esther Schindler)

On Mon, 6 Sep 1999 01:54:18, tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen) 
wrote:

| > I wish _everyone_ would change message subjects when the topics 
| > change. There's nothing as annoying as downloading a thread ostensibly
| > about TopicA and discovering that half the messages are about TopicB. 
| > Or, perhaps, if you're interested in TopicB, learning that you'd 
| > missed a whole conversation about the subject.
|  
| Not every news reader knows how to group messages containing an ongoing
| discussion if someone changes the subject line.

That's true.

But it sure helps those of us who do.

And can it *hurt* to stay relevant?

--Esther


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               05-Sep-99 19:33:00
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 05:58:22
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste)

On Sun, 05 Sep 1999 19:51:45 -0500, Hobbyist  recycled some holes into the
following pattern:

>In response to Chad Irby's post :
>
>> <hobbyist@nospam.net> wrote:
>> 
>> > Yes, but try going down to the corner store to get a motherboard
>> > upgrade. 
>> 
>> Try doing that with a Dell, or a Compaq, or a Packard-Bell, or an
>> eMachine, or an IBM.
>> 
>> As pointed out here several times, well over *half* of the Wintel PCs sold
>> in the US have proprietary motherboards and other hardware.
>
>But you are reinforcing my point. All these boards are designed
>to run multiple OS's including the one which is the center of our
>discussion, windows.
>
>The MacOS is installed on Apple computers only, using one
>proprietary motherboard type only. No unique idiosyncracies with
>various types of motherboards and their chipsets to consider.
>This is what increases the reliability and consistency of
>behaviour when adding hardware.
> 

Unless, that is, you want to upgrade your G3 machine to a G4. Then you find
out that Apple deliberately wrote the BIOS on your G3 machine to shut down
if it finds a G4 instead of a G3, so as to force you to purchase a whole new
machine from Apple, instead of an after-market processor upgrade from
someone else.

See:
http://www.macintouch.com/bg3upgrade.html

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
              -- Calvin

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From: josco@ibm.net                                     05-Sep-99 20:12:26
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 05:58:22
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net>


uno@40th.com wrote:

> Joseph? (josco@ibm.net?) wrote (Sun, 05 Sep 1999 12:11:08 -0400):
> >Hey I also noticed he's respected enough to write for CNN and you're not. 
But
> >why slime people?
>
> Hey, leave Petreley alone.  He used to be a diehard OS/2 nut.  Then
> a diehard NC nut.  Then a diehard Java nut.  If he wants to be a
> diehard Linux nut, let him (die as hard as he wants, just so long as
> he buries himself again).

As if having CNN carry your column is a sign of being a nut.

Remember when NT was an supported on Multiple CPUs ?  I do.  Now it's LINUX
with
Compaq (ALPHA), IBM (PPC) and SGI (MIPS) are all supporting LINUX.  Hey Intel
owns
part of Red Hat (IA).

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From: kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com               05-Sep-99 20:17:10
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 10:36:18
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: "Kim Cheung" <kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com>

On Sun, 05 Sep 1999 12:20:07 -0400, Joseph wrote:

>> Also, the subject of this thread is wrong. NT (or its lineal descendants)
is
>> not x86 only. NT4 shipped with support for three other platforms, and
>> Microsoft is hot-and-heavy in development of NT for Merced, which is not
>> considered part of the x86 family.
>
>Has Merced or Windows2000 shipped? No.
>
>Has NT ALPHA been terminated?  Yes.
>Has NT PPC been terminated?  Yes.
>Has NT Mips been terminalted?  Yes.

Has NT/390 been shipped? Will be.
Has NT for Mac been shipped? Will be.
Has NT for RS6000 been shipped? Will be.

Hence - NT is NOT x86 only.

"Wait for me....my NeverThere technology will be there....."


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: fred.nospam.emmerich@ibm.net                      05-Sep-99 23:17:07
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 10:36:18
Subj: Re: Tholen's thoughts

From: fred.nospam.emmerich@ibm.net

In <7qv6i7$pbq$2@news.hawaii.edu>, on 09/06/99 
   at 01:48 AM, tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dumb Fuck) said:

>Inconsistency is common here.  Esther hasn't said anything
>about Brad's lies.  Of course, that's assuming she's
>bothered to read them.

Still unable to comprehend a subject line Dave? Maybe
because it was titled "Tholen's thoughts" , it threw you
off.   Esther did make a BIG leap  with that one.  Feel free
to spin another, as I am sure you will.

Well, to touch on your comment, you're consistently a dick.

But of course Esther didn't mention anything about Brad's
hairdo either, can't believe you missed that.





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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         06-Sep-99 04:39:27
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 10:36:18
Subj: Re: On using useful subject headers

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Esther Schindler writes:

>>> I wish _everyone_ would change message subjects when the topics 
>>> change. There's nothing as annoying as downloading a thread ostensibly
>>> about TopicA and discovering that half the messages are about TopicB. 
>>> Or, perhaps, if you're interested in TopicB, learning that you'd 
>>> missed a whole conversation about the subject.

>> Not every news reader knows how to group messages containing an ongoing
>> discussion if someone changes the subject line.

> That's true.
>
> But it sure helps those of us who do.

And hurts those of us who don't.

> And can it *hurt* to stay relevant?

Relevant to the newsgroup or relevant to the article to which one is
responding?  Those are not always one and the same.

And can it *hurt* to stay civil?  Ask Brad Wardell sometime.  I can
give you 1600 reasons why.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         06-Sep-99 04:44:28
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 10:36:18
Subj: Re: Tholen's thoughts

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Fred Emmerich writes:

> Dumb Fuck said:

I see you couldn't resist with the invective.  I'm not surprised.  No
logical argument follows.

>> Inconsistency is common here.  Esther hasn't said anything
>> about Brad's lies.  Of course, that's assuming she's
>> bothered to read them.

> Still unable to comprehend a subject line Dave?

Non sequitur.

> Maybe because it was titled "Tholen's thoughts" , it threw you off.

Still non sequitur.

> Esther did make a BIG leap  with that one.

That one what?

> Feel free to spin another, as I am sure you will.

Spin another what?

What you've written makes no sense in the context of the discussion.

> Well, to touch on your comment, you're consistently a dick.

How ironic, coming from you.  You're consistently wrong about the
Fortran 90 standard including the RECORD statement.  You've
consistently failed to find out the truth about Fortran 90.

> But of course Esther didn't mention anything about Brad's
> hairdo either,

Irrelevant, given that Brad's hairdo hasn't been discussed here.
Brad's lies have been discussed here.  Your invective has also been
discussed here.

> can't believe you missed that.

How can I miss what doesn't exist?

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: cirby@magicnet.net                                06-Sep-99 00:50:07
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 10:36:18
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)

sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste) wrote:

> Unless, that is, you want to upgrade your G3 machine to a G4. Then you find
> out that Apple deliberately wrote the BIOS on your G3 machine to shut down
> if it finds a G4 instead of a G3, so as to force you to purchase a whole new
> machine from Apple, instead of an after-market processor upgrade from
> someone else.
> 
> See:
> http://www.macintouch.com/bg3upgrade.html

For those of you who are new to this argument, follow the URL and note
that it doesn't actually say that Apple "deliberately" did this...

-- 

Chad Irby         \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: josco@ibm.net                                     05-Sep-99 22:25:10
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 10:36:18
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net>


Kim Cheung wrote:

> On Sun, 05 Sep 1999 12:20:07 -0400, Joseph wrote:
>
> >> Also, the subject of this thread is wrong. NT (or its lineal descendants) 
is
> >> not x86 only. NT4 shipped with support for three other platforms, and
> >> Microsoft is hot-and-heavy in development of NT for Merced, which is not
> >> considered part of the x86 family.
> >
> >Has Merced or Windows2000 shipped? No.
> >
> >Has NT ALPHA been terminated?  Yes.
> >Has NT PPC been terminated?  Yes.
> >Has NT Mips been terminalted?  Yes.
>
> Has NT/390 been shipped? Will be.
> Has NT for Mac been shipped? Will be.
> Has NT for RS6000 been shipped? Will be.
>
> Hence - NT is NOT x86 only.
>
> "Wait for me....my NeverThere technology will be there....."

Don't forget, CPU makers PAID to port NT to their CPU.  Compaq funded the
development of NT ALPHA, so Compaq got to decide to layoff the 100 NT ALPHA
engineers.  It is MS's option to hire them and pay for the development of
ALPHA NT
and NT/390 and NT Mac and NT RS6000.  So the only thing that has changed is
who
funds the development.



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From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               06-Sep-99 01:43:08
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 10:36:18
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Marty wrote:
> 
> Before I drop you fittingly into the first of my message filters, Dave, I
> would like you to list in 1 response to me here, every single point to
> which you would like me to concede.  I will fully admit that I am wrong to
> each and every point made.  Just list them concisely in a response to this
> post (try to avoid duplication if possible).  Thanks in advance.

Note:  no response.  I guess all of your responses to me were pointless, as
I have asked for a point summary here and received no response.  Very well.

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From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               06-Sep-99 00:10:08
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 10:36:18
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste)

On Sun, 05 Sep 1999 22:25:20 -0400, Joseph recycled some holes into the
following pattern:

>
>
>Kim Cheung wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 05 Sep 1999 12:20:07 -0400, Joseph wrote:
>>
>> >> Also, the subject of this thread is wrong. NT (or its lineal
descendants) is
>> >> not x86 only. NT4 shipped with support for three other platforms, and
>> >> Microsoft is hot-and-heavy in development of NT for Merced, which is not
>> >> considered part of the x86 family.
>> >
>> >Has Merced or Windows2000 shipped? No.
>> >
>> >Has NT ALPHA been terminated?  Yes.
>> >Has NT PPC been terminated?  Yes.
>> >Has NT Mips been terminalted?  Yes.
>>
>> Has NT/390 been shipped? Will be.
>> Has NT for Mac been shipped? Will be.
>> Has NT for RS6000 been shipped? Will be.
>>
>> Hence - NT is NOT x86 only.
>>
>> "Wait for me....my NeverThere technology will be there....."
>
>Don't forget, CPU makers PAID to port NT to their CPU.  Compaq funded the
>development of NT ALPHA, so Compaq got to decide to layoff the 100 NT ALPHA
>engineers.  It is MS's option to hire them and pay for the development of
ALPHA NT
>and NT/390 and NT Mac and NT RS6000.  So the only thing that has changed is
who
>funds the development.
>
>

NT Alpha predates Compaq's acquisition of DEC.

And what has any of this got to do with OS/2? If you want to talk about
this, why don't you post it to one of the Microsoft advocacy groups, where
it would be appropriate?

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
              -- Calvin

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenAntiSpam@ifa.hawaii.edu                     06-Sep-99 08:42:03
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 10:36:18
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: tholenAntiSpam@ifa.hawaii.edu

Marty writes:

>>>>>> Brad Wardell writes:

>>>>>>> Not much left to discuss. <grin>

>>>>>> [...] such as your lie about [...]

>>>>> Whose lie Dave?

>>>> Having more reading comprehension problems, Marty?

>>> It's hard to understand your complex statements, Dave (all 5 of them).

>> No, it isn't, Marty.

> I'm trying desperately to give you some credit here, Dave.

Obviously not trying hard enough, Marty.

> Would you like me to admit that your 5 catch-phrases are so simplistic
> as to be useless?

Non sequitur.  The issue was Brad's lies, which are not "catch-phrases".

>>>>> You wouldn't happen to be trying to talk directly to Brad
>>>>> again would you?

>>>> Since when are the readers just Brad, Marty?

>>> Did all the readers lie about ...?

>> Non sequitur.

> Incorrect.

Feel free to explain how it is sequitur, if you think you can, Marty.

>>> You used the word "your" Dave.

>> Appropriately, Marty.

> If you were addressing him, it was appropriate.

I was, obviously, but not necessarily directly.  Amazing that you
apparently believe it is impossible to address someone indirectly.

> If not, it was absurd.

The key word here is "if".

>>> Admit your mistake and move on.

>> What alleged mistake, Marty?

> See above.

I still don't see any mistake on my part above, Marty.

>>> How do you not address someone when you say "your lie"?

>> There is a difference between addressing someone and addressing
>> someone directly, Marty.

> Right.

Then why have you failed to realize that previously, Marty?

> You've attempted both.

On what basis do you make that claim, Marty?

>>> Stop being absurd.  It's quite pointless.

>> Practice what you preach, Marty.

Note:  no response.

>>>>> That's a very useless and silly thing to do because he
>>>>> has kill-filed you.

>>>> Illogical, given that my evidence is quite useful and not silly at all.
>>>> The silliness was all Brad's.

>>> Your evidence is irrelevant to this discussion.

>> Incorrect.

> Incorrect.

Balderdash, Marty.

>>> Your addressing Brad is useless and silly.

>> Also incorrect.

> Is it useful to address someone who has already openly stated they are not
> listening?

Given that he has seen some of my responses, obviously it is useful.

>>> Why not refer to him as an external context, which is what he now is?

>> Are you arguing that it would be more effective, Marty?

> I'm arguing that it would be less absurd.

Less absurd than your "infantile game", Marty?

   "It was applied consistently only in that it was used to contradict
   what you had stated in both cases as part of an infantile game."
      --Marty

   "Yes I do, I was just playing an infantile game."
      --Marty

   "It was the apparent arrogance of your previous knee-jerk one-word
   responses that caused me to play infantile games and mimic you.
      --Marty

>>> Why not say "such as Brad's lie about..."?

>> I have, Marty.

> Not in the case sited above.

The case sited [sic] above is incomplete.

>>> You're talking directly to his killfile,

>> Incorrect.

> Indirectly to his killfile perhaps?

The people responding to me aren't necessarily in his killfile, Marty.

>>> as you will be talking to mine soon, no doubt.

>> The sooner, the better.

> Thanks for the invitation.  Time to cut the traffic in this newsgroup in
> half.

Do you really think you account for half the traffic in the newsgroup,
Marty?

> (The other half will be your responses, directly addressing me even
> though I have just stated that I will no longer read them.)

Illogical, because it presumes that nobody else posts in the newsgroup.

> I would appreciate it, as a courtesy, that any readers that wish to quote
> Dave not quote anything to do with me.  I wish to apologize to the reading
> public that have had to suffer through this thread and any others involving
> myself and Dave.  It ends here.

Famous last words.  Obviously it didn't.

> Before I drop you fittingly into the first of my message filters, Dave,

On what basis do you call it fittingly, Marty?

> I would like you to list in 1 response to me here, every single point to
> which you would like me to concede.

That your unwarranted extrapolation of Bennie's statement was illogical.
If you still believe otherwise, show why one can equate apples to bananas,
which is logically consistent with your reasoning.

That your belief that your interpretation of Bennie's statement is still
correct is inconsistent with your acknowledgment of Bennie's unnecessary
clarification.

That Brad's accusation of 1600 postings in other newsgroups is a blatant
lie.

> I will fully admit that I am wrong to each and every point made.

Illogical, given that you didn't know what points I might list at the
time of your concession.

> Just list them concisely in a response to this post (try to avoid
> duplication if possible).  Thanks in advance.

To what end, Marty?

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu                             06-Sep-99 08:51:08
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 10:36:18
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu

Marty wrote:

I see you chose to delete a rather significant portion of your posting,
Marty, namely:

M] I would appreciate it, as a courtesy, that any readers that wish to quote
M] Dave not quote anything to do with me.  I wish to apologize to the reading
M] public that have had to suffer through this thread and any others involving
M] myself and Dave.  It ends here.

As I expected, it didn't end there.

> Marty wrote:

>> Before I drop you fittingly into the first of my message filters, Dave, I
>> would like you to list in 1 response to me here, every single point to
>> which you would like me to concede.  I will fully admit that I am wrong to
>> each and every point made.  Just list them concisely in a response to this
>> post (try to avoid duplication if possible).  Thanks in advance.

> Note:  no response.

Check out my response, recently posted, Marty.  I was away, having been
invited to give a paper at the AMOS Technical Conference, being held at
the Wailea Beach Resort on Maui (Maui No Ka Oi).  Upon my return, I noted
that 27 postings had expired from our news server before I had a chance
to read them.  Although I did check deja.com for postings from you to me
dated August 31, the one in question is dated August 30, but I had read
your postings up through early August 31 GMT, so apparently there was a
propagation delay.  Now I'll need to check for your postings to me on
August 30 as well.

> I guess all of your responses to me were pointless,

You guessed wrong again, Marty.

> as I have asked for a point summary here and received no response.

Yes you have, Marty.

> Very well.

And it didn't end there.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: rjf@yyycomasia.com                                06-Sep-99 12:24:05
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 14:34:06
Subj: Re: [OT] Thin clients pick up momentum

From: rjf@yyycomasia.com (rj friedman)

On Sun, 5 Sep 1999 23:59:02, JM 
<malstrom@yolen.oit.umass.edu> wrote:

http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?99093.pith
in.htm

Much to the chagrin of PC proponents, the thin-client movement appears to 
be picking up steam, with a rash of recent moves signaling the next step 
in the evolution of server-centric computing. 


I wonder if all the people who proclimed (and are proclaimng
to this day) the network computer (NC) dead realize that 
this is the "network computer" resurrected under a different
name.

________________________________________________________

[RJ]                 OS/2 - Live it, or live with it. 
rj friedman          Team ABW              
Taipei, Taiwan       rjf@yyycomasia.com 

To send email - remove the `yyy'
________________________________________________________

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: esther@bitranch.com                               06-Sep-99 15:16:01
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 14:34:07
Subj: Re: On using useful subject headers

From: esther@bitranch.com (Esther Schindler)

On Mon, 6 Sep 1999 04:39:54, tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen) 
wrote:
| > And can it *hurt* to stay relevant?
|  
| Relevant to the newsgroup or relevant to the article to which one is
| responding?  Those are not always one and the same.

Relevant to the article you're responding to. If the message is 
off-topic, then the rest of the particpants can at least determine so 
from the message subject.

| And can it *hurt* to stay civil?  Ask Brad Wardell sometime.  I can
| give you 1600 reasons why.

Tholen, please grow up. Let it go. I'm a lot more interested in OS/2 
than I am in pissing contests between OS/2 users.

--Esther 


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From: josco@ibm.net                                     06-Sep-99 09:16:14
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 14:34:07
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net>


Steven C. Den Beste wrote:

> On Sun, 05 Sep 1999 22:25:20 -0400, Joseph recycled some holes into the
> following pattern:
>
> >
> >
> >Kim Cheung wrote:
> >
> >> On Sun, 05 Sep 1999 12:20:07 -0400, Joseph wrote:
> >>
> >> >> Also, the subject of this thread is wrong. NT (or its lineal
descendants) is
> >> >> not x86 only. NT4 shipped with support for three other platforms, and
> >> >> Microsoft is hot-and-heavy in development of NT for Merced, which is
not
> >> >> considered part of the x86 family.
> >> >
> >> >Has Merced or Windows2000 shipped? No.
> >> >
> >> >Has NT ALPHA been terminated?  Yes.
> >> >Has NT PPC been terminated?  Yes.
> >> >Has NT Mips been terminalted?  Yes.
> >>
> >> Has NT/390 been shipped? Will be.
> >> Has NT for Mac been shipped? Will be.
> >> Has NT for RS6000 been shipped? Will be.
> >>
> >> Hence - NT is NOT x86 only.
> >>
> >> "Wait for me....my NeverThere technology will be there....."
> >
> >Don't forget, CPU makers PAID to port NT to their CPU.  Compaq funded the
> >development of NT ALPHA, so Compaq got to decide to layoff the 100 NT ALPHA
> >engineers.  It is MS's option to hire them and pay for the development of
ALPHA NT
> >and NT/390 and NT Mac and NT RS6000.  So the only thing that has changed is 
who
> >funds the development.
> >
> >
>
> NT Alpha predates Compaq's acquisition of DEC.

Oh yes.

DEC long ago picked NT as the OS which would make Alpha the most popular CPU
-- fast
like a RISC and mass market like Windows.  Since then DEC/Compaq has shifted
to VMS and
UNIX.  More recently they adopted LINUX although LINUX Alpha was the first
non-IA port.

> And what has any of this got to do with OS/2? If you want to talk about
> this, why don't you post it to one of the Microsoft advocacy groups, where
> it would be appropriate?

Sure if you insist -- I can remind you once again.   NT is now as portable and 
scalable
as OS/2.  Both are IA OSs. No more and no less.  Of course OS/2 runs better on 
lesser
hardware.

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From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               06-Sep-99 13:03:02
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 16:46:13
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

tholenAntiSpam@ifa.hawaii.edu wrote:
> 
> Marty writes:
>
> > I would like you to list in 1 response to me here, every single point to
> > which you would like me to concede.
> 
> That your unwarranted extrapolation of Bennie's statement was illogical.

Agreed.

> If you still believe otherwise, show why one can equate apples to bananas,
> which is logically consistent with your reasoning.

Unnecessary.

> That your belief that your interpretation of Bennie's statement is still
> correct is inconsistent with your acknowledgment of Bennie's unnecessary
> clarification.

Sure.

> That Brad's accusation of 1600 postings in other newsgroups is a blatant
> lie.

Absolutely.

> > I will fully admit that I am wrong to each and every point made.
> 
> Illogical, given that you didn't know what points I might list at the
> time of your concession.

Irrelevant.  The act of disagreeing with you makes me wrong by default.

> > Just list them concisely in a response to this post (try to avoid
> > duplication if possible).  Thanks in advance.
> 
> To what end, Marty?

To this end:  We have nothing further to discuss. 

<*plonk*>

- Marty

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From: nws@rollingthunder.clara.co.uk                    06-Sep-99 17:05:10
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 16:46:13
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: nws@rollingthunder.clara.co.uk (Anthony Ord)

On Sun, 05 Sep 1999 11:11:20 -0500, Hobbyist  <hobbyist@nospam.net> wrote:
>In response to LK's post :
<snip>
>> Quite contrary to my experience of installing a Diamond Viper AGP V550, US 
>> Robotics 56k modem, a Toshiba DVD drive, an HP CDR, and a Hollywood
ReelMagic 
>> Card in about an hour total (including unhooking the cables, opening the 
>> case, etc.), and never having a problem getting the hardware recognized.  
>> Seeing that you said "generic" PCI card, it was probably a piece of crap
and 
>> you should be ashamed to pass it on to a family member.
>
>Unkindly put but true.
>
>If you stick with good hardware then the so called plug and pray
>experience will be less common and instead you're more likely to
>experience a plug and play experience.

It seems that many people will blame hardware than blame software, and I can
never understand why. Windows Plunge and Pray is unmitigated crap. Windows has
as much brainpower devoted to managing scarce resources as my kettle has. The
amount of times Windows has chased it's own tail trying to assign 6 pegs into
6 holes is unbelievable. Often I have to resort to setting everything manually
- they electronic equivalent to hitting something with a clue stick.

As an aside, it is what I like Linux for - you set the parameters in pnp.conf,
and come hell or high-water, that is what it is set to.

So, try to explain this in terms of crap hardware: I have a winmodem - it
works perfectly. Yet every so often (20 boots or so) Windows suddenly decides
it's found a new device and off it goes to try to install the drivers. If you
let it, you will have 2 winmodems in device manager. If you cancel it,
everything is happy until the next time it does it - about 20 boots away.

I say it's because Windows Plunge and Pray sucks.

Regards

Anthony
-- 
-----------------------------------------
| And when our worlds                   |
| They fall apart                       |
| When the walls come tumbling in       |
| Though we may deserve it              |
| It will be worth it  - Depeche Mode   |
-----------------------------------------

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From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               06-Sep-99 10:12:25
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 16:46:13
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste)

On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 09:16:29 -0400, Joseph recycled some holes into the
following pattern:

>
>> And what has any of this got to do with OS/2? If you want to talk about
>> this, why don't you post it to one of the Microsoft advocacy groups, where
>> it would be appropriate?
>
>Sure if you insist -- I can remind you once again.   NT is now as portable
and scalable
>as OS/2.  Both are IA OSs. No more and no less.  Of course OS/2 runs better
on lesser
>hardware.

But none of that makes any difference. The simple fact is this: OS/2 is a
commercial failure. NT is a commercial success. When the game is over,
that's the only score that matters. In the last 12 months NT sold as many
copies than OS/2 sold in its lifetime.

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
              -- Calvin

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From: aboritz@cybernex.net                              06-Sep-99 08:43:07
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 16:46:13
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: aboritz@cybernex.net (Alan Boritz)

In article <LoEFmgJJ9ecw-pn2-7suB9UNyBqut@agave.bitranch.com>,
esther@bitranch.com (Esther Schindler) wrote:
>Buddy, you might like it if Innoval posted the source. But your
>quibble doesn't take into account that the company may have very good
>reasons to *not* do so?

Buddy knows the value of intellectual property, even if he didn't happen to
write about it in that particular piece.

>Don't look gift horses in the mouth.

A foolish suggestion, but I'll assume you have more experience with horses.
<g>

>They could have said, "Screw you,
>we're cancelling all product support."

Innoval already DID that, only they just didn't bother telling anyone.  Their
email and web site have been inactive for tech support for months.  Every
customer who bought an Innoval product within the past couple of years,
thinking that it was a contemporary, supported product, was cheated.

>Instead, they gave the OS/2 community a gift.

It's not much of a gift.  It's broken software, only now we're not paying to
subsidize the buglist, and we KNOW that there's no one to call to get it
fixed.

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From: djohnson@isomedia.com                             06-Sep-99 10:37:18
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 16:46:13
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: "David T. Johnson" <djohnson@isomedia.com>

Joseph wrote:
> 
> http://cnn.com/TECH/computing/9909/03/linux.alpha.idg/index.html

Sometimes good silicon just does not get the attention it deserves. 
Back in 1981 IBM picked the 8088 chip for their personal computer even
though the Motorola 68000 or even the Intel 8086 looked like better
choices.  Compaq (formerly DEC) has been making the Alpha chip but it
arguably has not caught on.  Compaq was spending a lot of money on NT4
for the alpha to improve acceptance.  If the Alpha was really moving,
Microsoft would be doing this development.  

But in Microsoft's view, the Alpha is a bit player (sorry about that)
and they have no real interest in pushing it.  And Compaq is staring at
Windows 2000 with its 60 million or whatever lines of code that  has to
be ported to the Alpha.  And Linux is here now and gathering momentum. 
Who can fault Compaq for dropping NT on the Alpha?  Who wouldn't do
this?  The Linux/Alpha combination is a good one and may even become
dominant in certain market segments.

Windows 2000 will never run on anything not x86 unless Microsoft ports
it and how many ways can we say 'fat chance?'  

What is interesting re: OS/2 is that last year ZD ran a story predicting
the demise of OS/2 because IBM wasn't planning to convert it to 64-bit
for the x86 Intel 'Merced' processor.  Specifically, they said in May,
1998: "Big Blue (IBM) has hammered another nail into the
operating system's [OS/2] coffin by deciding not to deliver a 64-bit
version for Intel Corporation's upcoming Merced chip."  At that time,
Merced was supposed to be in production in mid-1999.  Since then, Intel
has announced numerous Merced delays.  Last week, Intel claimed that
they had produced working "samples" of the chip but there is quite a bit
of skepticism about this.  Software developers are still planning on
doing development on Merced simulators rather than actual Merced chips. 
And Microsoft is planning on shipping the first version of Merced
Windows 2000 as a 64/32 bit hybrid rather than a 64-bit version
according to the following:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/990902-000010.html  


What this means the Merced performance with Windows NT 2000 will not be
good because the processor will have to switch between IA-32 and IA-64
mode.  Assuming that the Merced platform will even be stable.

The present situation is that Merced is still a LONG ways off (2001).  I
am not yet even convinced that the present Intel design will prove to be
workable or stable.  It will be even longer before there will be 64-bit
Windows software.  (Several years.  How long did it take 32-bit windows
software to appear after 32-bit Windows?  For that matter, how long did
it take 32-bit Windows to appear AFTER the i-386 processor?).  The
64-bit Linux/Alpha platform is available now.  Mr. Petreley's
observations look pretty good to me.

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From: djohnson@isomedia.com                             06-Sep-99 10:54:07
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 16:46:13
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: "David T. Johnson" <djohnson@isomedia.com>

Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
> 
> 
>...But none of that makes any difference. The simple fact is this: OS/2 is a
> commercial failure. NT is a commercial success. When the game is over,
> that's the only score that matters. In the last 12 months NT sold as many
> copies than OS/2 sold in its lifetime.
> 
Sounds like you define 'commercial success' as 'sold the most copies.' 
By that standard, Windows NT trails behind a lot of other stuff such as
Windows 98, Nintendo 64, and the OS which runs my car.  I think
'commercial success' should be defined as 'makes money.'  By that
standard, OS/2 is definitely a success according to the following:

http://www.zdnet.com/sr/stories/news/0,4538,2326830,00.html

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From: pasnak@delete.cableregina.com                     06-Sep-99 12:24:14
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 16:46:14
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: pasnak@delete.cableregina.com (J.P. Pasnak)

On Mon, 6 Sep 1999 02:33:00, sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste)
woke up with a head full of whiskey and wrote:

> On Sun, 05 Sep 1999 19:51:45 -0500, Hobbyist  recycled some holes into the
> following pattern:
> 
> >In response to Chad Irby's post :
> >
> >> <hobbyist@nospam.net> wrote:
> >> 
> >> > Yes, but try going down to the corner store to get a motherboard
> >> > upgrade. 
> >> 
> >> Try doing that with a Dell, or a Compaq, or a Packard-Bell, or an
> >> eMachine, or an IBM.
> >> 
> >> As pointed out here several times, well over *half* of the Wintel PCs
sold
> >> in the US have proprietary motherboards and other hardware.
> >
> >But you are reinforcing my point. All these boards are designed
> >to run multiple OS's including the one which is the center of our
> >discussion, windows.
> >
> >The MacOS is installed on Apple computers only, using one
> >proprietary motherboard type only. No unique idiosyncracies with
> >various types of motherboards and their chipsets to consider.
> >This is what increases the reliability and consistency of
> >behaviour when adding hardware.
> > 
> 
> Unless, that is, you want to upgrade your G3 machine to a G4. Then you find
> out that Apple deliberately wrote the BIOS on your G3 machine to shut down
> if it finds a G4 instead of a G3, so as to force you to purchase a whole new
> machine from Apple, instead of an after-market processor upgrade from
> someone else.
> 
> See:
> http://www.macintouch.com/bg3upgrade.html
> 

Where exactly did you get 'deliberately' from?  As far as I understand
it, the G4 processor doesn't work with a G3 system.  Figure the 
freakin' odds.  Mac users have grown accustom to being able to upgrade
to almost anything.  And now they have hit a bump in the road.  The 
only ones making an 'informed' stink about this are the 'upgrade' 
companies who are trying to low-ball Apple.  Give it time, and you 
will see a 'fix', from Apple.

J.P. Pasnak
Warped Systems
******************
http://members.xoom.com/Warped/every/everything.html
http://members.xoom.com/Warped/every/dirmap.html
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/warpedusers
*******************

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From: dshailes@btinternet.com                           06-Sep-99 19:48:01
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 16:46:14
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: "I-TEC" <dshailes@btinternet.com>

you find IE5 works? open more then 10 windows? - it crashes - I have PII333
etc and AMD 350 both machine crash like hell running Windows 98 - I had to
type a letter on my A3010 the other day!

Its crap - Netscape if you got to use PC!

did you know that if you design a web site with HTML the right way it looks
crap in IE!

So you have to put more code in for IE and then waste time, downloading
etc - IE3 is very bad from this point of view!

As a RISC/Acorn user I thought you have pride in a OS that has small coding
etc!

or I may be wrong

Adam


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From: josco@ibm.net                                     06-Sep-99 12:18:05
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 16:46:14
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net>


Steven C. Den Beste wrote:

> On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 09:16:29 -0400, Joseph recycled some holes into the
> following pattern:
>
> >
> >> And what has any of this got to do with OS/2? If you want to talk about
> >> this, why don't you post it to one of the Microsoft advocacy groups,
where
> >> it would be appropriate?
> >
> >Sure if you insist -- I can remind you once again.   NT is now as portable
and scalable
> >as OS/2.  Both are IA OSs. No more and no less.  Of course OS/2 runs better 
on lesser
> >hardware.
>
> But none of that makes any difference.

It makes a huge difference if you're a compay that adopted NT because of
expectations NT
would scale and become dominate.  NT is losing ground and when I point this
fact out you'll
ask -- what does this have to do with OS/2 -- well NT is very much like OS/2.  
OS/2 and NT
are niche OSs.  You don't even use a copy of NT at home.  Think about the
implications of
your own decisions.

> The simple fact is this: OS/2 is a
> commercial failure. NT is a commercial success. When the game is over,
> that's the only score that matters. In the last 12 months NT sold as many
> copies than OS/2 sold in its lifetime.

There is no game.  It is cold hard business  -- A place where RISC NT gets
dumped by IBM,
Motorola, MIPS and now Compaq.  We saw the same decison for OS/2 PPC (RISC
OS/2)   NT is a
proven commerical failure on all CPUs but IA and for that CPU NT is not the
dominate OS.
NT is very much like OS/2 -- a niche OS at the low end of corporate computing
and limited to
IA CPUs.  The parallels are uncanny.

The more interesting question is how long can MS maintain a multi-billion
dollar investment
strategy for NT on IA when the competition gets development by a community for 
ported to
multiple CPUs which are more powerful than IA?

As a server OS, NT has to scale with IA systems which means it is now limited
by the
hardware.  This is indeed very bad news.

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From: amiga_2001@yahoo.com                              06-Sep-99 19:07:02
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 19:51:14
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: Amiga User <amiga_2001@yahoo.com>

In article <1738.917T2063T14074268AmigaPhil@ping.be>,
  "Philippe Duchenne" <AmigaPhil@ping.be> wrote:
> Hello there Amiga User !
> On 27-Aot-99  00:11:20, you wrote about Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of
> anti-Microsoft banners :
>
> > In article <830.907T2968T254613AmigaPhil@ping.be>,
> >   "Philippe Duchenne" <AmigaPhil@ping.be> wrote:
> >> A new collection of "Anti-Microsoft" Web banners is available at
> >>
> >>   <URL:http://www.ping.be/amigaphil/pic/SBull.html>
> >>
> >> Those are based on a "Microsoft FREE" seal (16 colors, Netscape palette
> >> used)
> >>
> >> Other collections have been updated too :
> >>
> >>  - More cream pies for Bill Gates
> >>    <URL:http://www.ping.be/amigaphil/pic/SBill.html>
>
> >   I guess this kind of stuff appeals to people who have an inferiority
> > complex.
>
> You don't have much knowledge in psychology, do you ?

  Let's see, you have people who lie in wait in the shadows until
Bill Gates shows up.  Then they throw a pie in his face and run away
like cowards.  Do these people really make you proud to be a Belgian?


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

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From: josco@ibm.net                                     06-Sep-99 12:35:20
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 19:51:14
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net>


David T. Johnson wrote:

> Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
> >
> >
> >...But none of that makes any difference. The simple fact is this: OS/2 is
a
> > commercial failure. NT is a commercial success. When the game is over,
> > that's the only score that matters. In the last 12 months NT sold as many
> > copies than OS/2 sold in its lifetime.
> >
> Sounds like you define 'commercial success' as 'sold the most copies.'
> By that standard, Windows NT trails behind a lot of other stuff such as
> Windows 98, Nintendo 64, and the OS which runs my car.  I think
> 'commercial success' should be defined as 'makes money.'  By that
> standard, OS/2 is definitely a success according to the following:
>
> http://www.zdnet.com/sr/stories/news/0,4538,2326830,00.html

The most dominate social animal on the planet is the ant.  They are more in
number and in mass than the animal family in which humans reside.  NT is like
OS/2.  I can use these OSs on my desktop but for computing I use FreeBSD on IA
systems.  It is more efficient, robust and scalable than OS/2 or NT.  NT has
won
the niche IBM targeted for OS/2 but that's a early 90's battle.

What we are seeing with MIPS and ALPHA is the OEM adopting LINUX and making
investments in to LINUX for their own hardware's benefit.  SGI is doing this
development and investments in place of IRIX.  SGI will add  IRIX features to
LINUX for the MIPS CPU while Compaq will use LINUX to push lower end and
higher
volume ALPHA sales and also LINUX on their thin clients.

IBM knew OS/2 PPC was doomed to fail because of the politics of the OS market
--
why would HP or Compaq adopt an IBM OS for their CPU?  Well the same can be
asked
of NT.  Why invest into and develop MS's OS given it hasn't delivered on the
expected profits and when a large fraction of your sales has to go to MS?

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From: kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com               06-Sep-99 12:51:17
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 19:51:14
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: "Kim Cheung" <kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com>

On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 10:12:51 -0700, Steven C. Den Beste wrote:

>In the last 12 months NT sold as many
>copies

Sold???  How'bout shoved down people's throat?


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From: vicki@midusa.net                                  06-Sep-99 14:41:25
  To: All                                               06-Sep-99 19:51:14
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: "Vicki" <vicki@midusa.net>

> Card in about an hour total (including unhooking the cables, opening the
> case, etc.), and never having a problem getting the hardware recognized.
> Seeing that you said "generic" PCI card, it was probably a piece of crap
and
> you should be ashamed to pass it on to a family member.

HEY, thats right. Good thing you pointed that
out it would have escaped me.

how could you give a generic anything to your dear ole dad?
Shame on you. We will keep our lips sealed.
Your secret is safe with us.

Vicki



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From: dpeterso@halcyon.com                              06-Sep-99 13:20:02
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 05:46:02
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: Dennis Peterson <dpeterso@halcyon.com>


"Steven C. Den Beste" wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 04 Sep 1999 21:04:06 -0400, Joseph recycled some holes into the
> following pattern:
> 
> >http://cnn.com/TECH/computing/9909/03/linux.alpha.idg/index.html
> 
> Petreley's track record on predictions is none too good.
> 

He also mispelled "nerd mentality".

> --------
> Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
> Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste
> 
> "We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
>               -- Calvin

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From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               06-Sep-99 13:14:19
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 05:46:02
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: Steven C. Den Beste <sdenbes1@san.rr.com>

On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 10:54:14 -0400, David T. Johnson recycled some holes
into the following pattern:

>Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>...But none of that makes any difference. The simple fact is this: OS/2 is a
>> commercial failure. NT is a commercial success. When the game is over,
>> that's the only score that matters. In the last 12 months NT sold as many
>> copies than OS/2 sold in its lifetime.
>> 
>Sounds like you define 'commercial success' as 'sold the most copies.' 
>By that standard, Windows NT trails behind a lot of other stuff such as
>Windows 98, Nintendo 64, and the OS which runs my car.  I think
>'commercial success' should be defined as 'makes money.'  By that
>standard, OS/2 is definitely a success according to the following:
>
>http://www.zdnet.com/sr/stories/news/0,4538,2326830,00.html

I define "commercial success" as "sells enough copies to make a substantial
profit, enough so as to convince its vendor to continue substantial
development investment in and enhancement of the product".

There can be many "commercial successes" in the same market, but in this
particular market, OS/2 isn't one of them. IBM continues to half-heartedly
enhance OS/2, trickling out a fixpack or new feature every once in a while,
but it is negligible by comparison to what Microsoft is doing with NT.

And as to your article, don't make the mistake of confusing "gross" with
"net". OS/2 also has represented a substantial investment by IBM over the
years. Has it paid all that back?

I don't think NT has paid back all the investment Microsoft has made in it,
*yet*, but I think there is no chance that it will in the long run fail to
do so. It is as near to certain as anything is in the business world that NT
will in the long run be extremely profitable.

That's not so obvious for OS/2.

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
              -- Calvin

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From: dpeterso@halcyon.com                              06-Sep-99 13:29:11
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 05:46:02
Subj: Re: Sun to proliferate Star Office...

From: Dennis Peterson <dpeterso@halcyon.com>


Joseph wrote:
> 
> Dennis Peterson wrote:
> 
> > JM wrote:
> > >
> > [whack]
> >
> > > The real reason why Star Office still has no chance against Office, is
> > > because coporations have standardized on Office.  They are more then
> > > willing to buy their MS Office volume discount to get their standards.
> >
> > And those standards reduce simply to file format and the user interface.
> > If staroffice properly and adequately clones those two features, MS
> > office is just an expensive white elephant. So far, that is true.
> >
> > MS isn't going to sit still, though. I expect there will be office 2000,
> > Office 2000.25, office 2000.5, etc., in an endless game to send the
> > staroffice coders off on a filter/feature catch-up race. It would not
> > come as a big surprise to me to learn that MS already has the next
> > half-dozen versions ready for serial release - and each incompatible
> > with the previous release. The lesson learned from selling the blades
> > and giving away the razor.
> 
> It only took 6 days to create the world because there was no installed base.
> 
> I'm not sure MS can force their customers into supporting a file format arms
> race.  While it makes sense and they have done this in the past they now
> have anti-trust scrutiny. MS would have harder time forcing the market into
> a shift.  As we know.the new Office editions always require new hardware and
> that means costly system updates and OS updates.  IMHO MS would drive
> corporate users to using Windows terminal server for running the latest and
> greatest Office suite and thus hurt their PC OS.  That would then validate
> the ASP business model.
> 
> I think a site that offered users access to MS file filters would do MS
> harm.  A site where you submit and get back a translated file.  The service
> would use standard file formats and possibly offer the user the ability to
> generate a PDF file.  I use such a service for graphic files.  A company
> like SUN or IBM could easily fund the file translation site and offter the
> filters as downloads.


Such a site has immediate appeal until you consider the issue of
security. What corporation is going to send internal documents to such a
site? (hint: none).

dp

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From: dpeterso@halcyon.com                              06-Sep-99 13:26:04
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 05:46:02
Subj: Re: [OT] Thin clients pick up momentum

From: Dennis Peterson <dpeterso@halcyon.com>

Consider how long it took another must-have technology to catch on and
how important it has become: The CD player.

It is only a matter of time before the light goes on and the NC becomes
as ubiquitous. The MS attempt to achieve this same goal is SMS managed
networks but my God, what a lashup.

dp

rj friedman wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 5 Sep 1999 23:59:02, JM
> <malstrom@yolen.oit.umass.edu> wrote:
> 
> http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?99093.pith
> in.htm
> 
> Much to the chagrin of PC proponents, the thin-client movement appears to
> be picking up steam, with a rash of recent moves signaling the next step
> in the evolution of server-centric computing.
> 
> I wonder if all the people who proclimed (and are proclaimng
> to this day) the network computer (NC) dead realize that
> this is the "network computer" resurrected under a different
> name.
> 
> ________________________________________________________
> 
> [RJ]                 OS/2 - Live it, or live with it.
> rj friedman          Team ABW
> Taipei, Taiwan       rjf@yyycomasia.com
> 
> To send email - remove the `yyy'
> ________________________________________________________

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From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               06-Sep-99 13:27:10
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 05:46:02
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: Steven C. Den Beste <sdenbes1@san.rr.com>

On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 10:37:37 -0400, David T. Johnson recycled some holes
into the following pattern:

>But in Microsoft's view, the Alpha is a bit player (sorry about that)
>and they have no real interest in pushing it.  And Compaq is staring at
>Windows 2000 with its 60 million or whatever lines of code that  has to
>be ported to the Alpha.  And Linux is here now and gathering momentum. 
>Who can fault Compaq for dropping NT on the Alpha?  Who wouldn't do
>this?  The Linux/Alpha combination is a good one and may even become
>dominant in certain market segments.

The decision was made by Compaq, not by Microsoft.

The 64-bit version of NT/Win2000 is being implemented on the Alpha now,
because it's the only reasonable processor available on which to do it. Once
Merced becomes available, it will be ported to that.

And that isn't going to change. Both Compaq and Microsoft have stated that
they expect to continue using Alpha for this purpose. What they're not going
to do is to turn the Alpha version into a product and sell it retail,
because Compaq doesn't think there's any market for the Alpha in the space
where 64-bit Win2K is expected to sell. Rather, they'll target that market
with multiprocessor IA-32 systems, and with Merced when it comes out, both
running Win2K.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/990829-000001.html

>Windows 2000 will never run on anything not x86 unless Microsoft ports
>it and how many ways can we say 'fat chance?'  

It depends on what you define as "x86". Intel doesn't consider Merced to be
"x86"; the instruction and register architecture are completely different.

>What is interesting re: OS/2 is that last year ZD ran a story predicting
>the demise of OS/2 because IBM wasn't planning to convert it to 64-bit
>for the x86 Intel 'Merced' processor.  Specifically, they said in May,
>1998: "Big Blue (IBM) has hammered another nail into the
>operating system's [OS/2] coffin by deciding not to deliver a 64-bit
>version for Intel Corporation's upcoming Merced chip."  At that time,
>Merced was supposed to be in production in mid-1999.  Since then, Intel
>has announced numerous Merced delays.  Last week, Intel claimed that
>they had produced working "samples" of the chip but there is quite a bit
>of skepticism about this.  Software developers are still planning on
>doing development on Merced simulators rather than actual Merced chips. 
>And Microsoft is planning on shipping the first version of Merced
>Windows 2000 as a 64/32 bit hybrid rather than a 64-bit version
>according to the following:
>
>http://www.theregister.co.uk/990902-000010.html  
>
>
>What this means the Merced performance with Windows NT 2000 will not be
>good because the processor will have to switch between IA-32 and IA-64
>mode.  Assuming that the Merced platform will even be stable.
>
>The present situation is that Merced is still a LONG ways off (2001).  I
>am not yet even convinced that the present Intel design will prove to be
>workable or stable.  It will be even longer before there will be 64-bit
>Windows software.  (Several years.  How long did it take 32-bit windows
>software to appear after 32-bit Windows?  For that matter, how long did
>it take 32-bit Windows to appear AFTER the i-386 processor?).  The
>64-bit Linux/Alpha platform is available now.  Mr. Petreley's
>observations look pretty good to me.

The Win2K Merced will have the capability of running IA-32 software, just
the way that the PPC-Mac had the ability to run 68K Mac software. The
transition from 68K to PPC in the Mac world took several years, and during
most of that time the users relied primarily on 68K applications. In many
cases those still ran faster on the PPC than they did on the 68K, despite
relying rather heavily on software emulation. There shouldn't be anything
like that kind of performance hit in the case of Merced, because IA-32 code
compatibility is in the silicon.

We also saw that kind of transition from Win16 to WIN32, with Win 95 leading
the way. In the case of Merced the transition is much easier, because the OS
API should be sufficiently similar that a port from a Pentium running Win2K
to a Merced also running Win2K should mostly just be a recompile to get into
the native binary. (This is not like the transition from Win16 to WIN32,
where the APIs were completely dissimilar.)

...or we could just use portable Java for everything, right? <G>

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
              -- Calvin

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From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               06-Sep-99 13:55:10
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 05:46:02
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: Steven C. Den Beste <sdenbes1@san.rr.com>

On 6 Sep 1999 12:24:29 -0800, J.P. Pasnak recycled some holes into the
following pattern:

>On Mon, 6 Sep 1999 02:33:00, sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste)
>woke up with a head full of whiskey and wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 05 Sep 1999 19:51:45 -0500, Hobbyist  recycled some holes into the
>> following pattern:
>> 
>> >In response to Chad Irby's post :
>> >
>> >> <hobbyist@nospam.net> wrote:
>> >> 
>> >> > Yes, but try going down to the corner store to get a motherboard
>> >> > upgrade. 
>> >> 
>> >> Try doing that with a Dell, or a Compaq, or a Packard-Bell, or an
>> >> eMachine, or an IBM.
>> >> 
>> >> As pointed out here several times, well over *half* of the Wintel PCs
sold
>> >> in the US have proprietary motherboards and other hardware.
>> >
>> >But you are reinforcing my point. All these boards are designed
>> >to run multiple OS's including the one which is the center of our
>> >discussion, windows.
>> >
>> >The MacOS is installed on Apple computers only, using one
>> >proprietary motherboard type only. No unique idiosyncracies with
>> >various types of motherboards and their chipsets to consider.
>> >This is what increases the reliability and consistency of
>> >behaviour when adding hardware.
>> > 
>> 
>> Unless, that is, you want to upgrade your G3 machine to a G4. Then you find
>> out that Apple deliberately wrote the BIOS on your G3 machine to shut down
>> if it finds a G4 instead of a G3, so as to force you to purchase a whole
new
>> machine from Apple, instead of an after-market processor upgrade from
>> someone else.
>> 
>> See:
>> http://www.macintouch.com/bg3upgrade.html
>> 
>
>Where exactly did you get 'deliberately' from?  As far as I understand
>it, the G4 processor doesn't work with a G3 system.  Figure the 
>freakin' odds.  Mac users have grown accustom to being able to upgrade
>to almost anything.  And now they have hit a bump in the road.  The 
>only ones making an 'informed' stink about this are the 'upgrade' 
>companies who are trying to low-ball Apple.  Give it time, and you 
>will see a 'fix', from Apple.
>
>J.P. Pasnak
>Warped Systems

It worked with BIOS version 1.0, before the G4 was a blip on the screen. It
doesn't work with BIOS version 1.1 which came out later, after they knew
that the G4 was coming.

Why is this so difficult to believe? The Mac users whose posts I've been
reading at Macintouch seem to have no trouble with the concept. (Oh, dear;
it's Apple, and Apple never does anything wrong. I forgot.)

There was a bunch of discussion about it at Apple's discussion site, and
then it suddenly all vanished. If it was a simple mistake, why would Apple
censor it?

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
              -- Calvin

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From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               06-Sep-99 14:08:09
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 05:46:02
Subj: Why NT is not like OS/2

From: Steven C. Den Beste <sdenbes1@san.rr.com>

On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 12:18:11 -0400, Joseph recycled some holes into the
following pattern:

>
>
>Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 09:16:29 -0400, Joseph recycled some holes into the
>> following pattern:
>>
>> >
>> >> And what has any of this got to do with OS/2? If you want to talk about
>> >> this, why don't you post it to one of the Microsoft advocacy groups,
where
>> >> it would be appropriate?
>> >
>> >Sure if you insist -- I can remind you once again.   NT is now as portable 
and scalable
>> >as OS/2.  Both are IA OSs. No more and no less.  Of course OS/2 runs
better on lesser
>> >hardware.
>>
>> But none of that makes any difference.
>
>It makes a huge difference if you're a compay that adopted NT because of
expectations NT
>would scale and become dominate.  NT is losing ground and when I point this
fact out you'll
>ask -- what does this have to do with OS/2 -- well NT is very much like OS/2. 
 OS/2 and NT
>are niche OSs.  You don't even use a copy of NT at home.  Think about the
implications of
>your own decisions.

I'd be hard pressed to think of a company which adopts an operating system
in the expectation that it would become dominant. Companies adopt operating
systems because they solve problems. Companies don't pick tools because
they're trying to ride a train.

And NT is not losing ground in the primary markets where it's trying to
compete. NT sales have been growing exponentially for the last several years
and there's no reason to believe that this will stop soon. NT market share
in the server market continues to rise. In their last fiscal year, Microsoft
sold nearly 20 million copies of NT, about the total lifetime sales of OS/2.
This brought the cumulative sales of NT up to about twice that number.

If NT and OS/2 are both "niches" then either you have a strange definition
of niche, or the niches are of dramatically different size.

>> The simple fact is this: OS/2 is a
>> commercial failure. NT is a commercial success. When the game is over,
>> that's the only score that matters. In the last 12 months NT sold as many
>> copies than OS/2 sold in its lifetime.
>
>There is no game.  It is cold hard business  -- A place where RISC NT gets
dumped by IBM,
>Motorola, MIPS and now Compaq.  We saw the same decison for OS/2 PPC (RISC
OS/2)   NT is a
>proven commerical failure on all CPUs but IA and for that CPU NT is not the
dominate OS.
>NT is very much like OS/2 -- a niche OS at the low end of corporate computing 
and limited to
>IA CPUs.  The parallels are uncanny.

The parallels are all inside your head.

Success and failure is a single quantity for a product. Either a product is
successful or it isn't.

Success is measured in sales, penetration and support, and longevity. No
product lasts forever, but if a product produces more profit than it cost to
develop, then that product is a success.

NT will do that. It may already have done so. But it's questionable, to say
the very least, whether OS/2 has. And if it hasn't done so by now it never
will, because IBM has given up on it. It's in maintenance mode now.

>The more interesting question is how long can MS maintain a multi-billion
dollar investment
>strategy for NT on IA when the competition gets development by a community
for ported to
>multiple CPUs which are more powerful than IA?

I'm having a hard time understanding just what you thought that sentence
meant. I can usually winkle out a meaning from your ungrammatical
constructions, but this one is too much for me. Care to restate it so that I
can respond to what you thought you meant?

>As a server OS, NT has to scale with IA systems which means it is now limited 
by the
>hardware.  This is indeed very bad news.

Compaq doesn't seem to think so; they've decided to use the IA-32 and IA-64
in that market instead of trying to sell the Alpha there. (In fact, I'm not
just sure who they think they *are* going to sell the Alpha to in future,
because it's surely not been a success on the desktop either.)

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
              -- Calvin

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From: djohnson@isomedia.com                             06-Sep-99 15:16:24
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 05:46:03
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: "David T. Johnson" <djohnson@isomedia.com>

Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 10:37:37 -0400, David T. Johnson recycled some holes
> into the following pattern:
> 
> >But in Microsoft's view, the Alpha is a bit player (sorry about that)
> >and they have no real interest in pushing it.  And Compaq is staring at
> >Windows 2000 with its 60 million or whatever lines of code that  has to
> >be ported to the Alpha.  And Linux is here now and gathering momentum.
> >Who can fault Compaq for dropping NT on the Alpha?  Who wouldn't do
> >this?  The Linux/Alpha combination is a good one and may even become
> >dominant in certain market segments.
> 
> The decision was made by Compaq, not by Microsoft.

Didn't I say that?

> 
> The 64-bit version of NT/Win2000 is being implemented on the Alpha now,
> because it's the only reasonable processor available on which to do it. Once
> Merced becomes available, it will be ported to that.
> 
> And that isn't going to change. Both Compaq and Microsoft have stated that
> they expect to continue using Alpha for this purpose. What they're not going
> to do is to turn the Alpha version into a product and sell it retail,
> because Compaq doesn't think there's any market for the Alpha in the space
> where 64-bit Win2K is expected to sell.

The entire point of this thread is regarding Compaq's decision to END
development of NT on Alpha.  No, they won't turn it into a product.  No,
they don't think there's a market.  They are abandoning the product. 
Here's what Compaq said:  "We will end development for all 32-bit and
64-bit Windows NT products on Alpha with the delivery of V4 SP6 in late
1999."  This sounds pretty clear to me.  

> Rather, they'll target that market
> with multiprocessor IA-32 systems, and with Merced when it comes out, both
> running Win2K.
> 
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/990829-000001.html
> 
> >Windows 2000 will never run on anything not x86 unless Microsoft ports
> >it and how many ways can we say 'fat chance?'
> 
> It depends on what you define as "x86". Intel doesn't consider Merced to be
> "x86"; the instruction and register architecture are completely different.

...but upwardly compatible with 32-bit software.  Win32 (and OS/2) will
apparently run on Merced.  Okay, how about 'Intel-based?'  But AMD
apparently already has working prototypes of their K8 64-bit processor
that will be announced in October.  What will we call these?  Actually,
I think AMD actually has a better chance of getting 64-bit silicon into
the marketplace than Intel with their Merced.  Maybe we will have to
start saying 'AMD-based.' 
> 
> >What is interesting re: OS/2 is that last year ZD ran a story predicting
> >the demise of OS/2 because IBM wasn't planning to convert it to 64-bit
> >for the x86 Intel 'Merced' processor.  Specifically, they said in May,
> >1998: "Big Blue (IBM) has hammered another nail into the
> >operating system's [OS/2] coffin by deciding not to deliver a 64-bit
> >version for Intel Corporation's upcoming Merced chip."  At that time,
> >Merced was supposed to be in production in mid-1999.  Since then, Intel
> >has announced numerous Merced delays.  Last week, Intel claimed that
> >they had produced working "samples" of the chip but there is quite a bit
> >of skepticism about this.  Software developers are still planning on
> >doing development on Merced simulators rather than actual Merced chips.
> >And Microsoft is planning on shipping the first version of Merced
> >Windows 2000 as a 64/32 bit hybrid rather than a 64-bit version
> >according to the following:
> >
> >http://www.theregister.co.uk/990902-000010.html
> >
> >
> >What this means the Merced performance with Windows NT 2000 will not be
> >good because the processor will have to switch between IA-32 and IA-64
> >mode.  Assuming that the Merced platform will even be stable.
> >
> >The present situation is that Merced is still a LONG ways off (2001).  I
> >am not yet even convinced that the present Intel design will prove to be
> >workable or stable.  It will be even longer before there will be 64-bit
> >Windows software.  (Several years.  How long did it take 32-bit windows
> >software to appear after 32-bit Windows?  For that matter, how long did
> >it take 32-bit Windows to appear AFTER the i-386 processor?).  The
> >64-bit Linux/Alpha platform is available now.  Mr. Petreley's
> >observations look pretty good to me.
> 
> The Win2K Merced will have the capability of running IA-32 software, just
> the way that the PPC-Mac had the ability to run 68K Mac software. The
> transition from 68K to PPC in the Mac world took several years, and during
> most of that time the users relied primarily on 68K applications. In many
> cases those still ran faster on the PPC than they did on the 68K, despite
> relying rather heavily on software emulation. There shouldn't be anything
> like that kind of performance hit in the case of Merced, because IA-32 code
> compatibility is in the silicon.

Such a comparison can't be made with the information available. 
However, the Merced will have to jump back and forth between IA-32 and
IA-64 mode and make frequent use of its IA-32 to IA-64 decoders.  This
will not make performance very good when running 32-bit software as
compared with running the same software on a 32-bit processor.

> 
> We also saw that kind of transition from Win16 to WIN32, with Win 95 leading
> the way. In the case of Merced the transition is much easier, because the OS
> API should be sufficiently similar that a port from a Pentium running Win2K
> to a Merced also running Win2K should mostly just be a recompile to get into
> the native binary. (This is not like the transition from Win16 to WIN32,
> where the APIs were completely dissimilar.)

A true 64-bit Windows on Merced will likely have extensively-expanded
APIs that will require new software to use to advantage.  But if the
Windows 2000 operating system on the 64-bit processor is itself a hybrid
of 32-bit and some 64-bit, the overall performance can't be expected to
be good relative to Windows 2000 on current 32-bit hardware.  Of course,
if the Merced comes out at 1500 Mhz, it will still perform pretty well
compared to a lowly 600 Mhz Pentium III, right?     
> 
> ...or we could just use portable Java for everything, right? <G>

Not a bad idea...

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From: josco@ibm.net                                     06-Sep-99 16:34:16
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 05:46:03
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net>


David T. Johnson wrote:

> Steven C. Den Beste wrote:

> > And that isn't going to change. Both Compaq and Microsoft have stated that
> > they expect to continue using Alpha for this purpose. What they're not
going
> > to do is to turn the Alpha version into a product and sell it retail,
> > because Compaq doesn't think there's any market for the Alpha in the space
> > where 64-bit Win2K is expected to sell.
>
> The entire point of this thread is regarding Compaq's decision to END
> development of NT on Alpha.  No, they won't turn it into a product.  No,
> they don't think there's a market.  They are abandoning the product.
> Here's what Compaq said:  "We will end development for all 32-bit and
> 64-bit Windows NT products on Alpha with the delivery of V4 SP6 in late
> 1999."  This sounds pretty clear to me.

Compaq abandoned NT and they already sell 64-bit UNIX (Tru64) and have a
64-bit
version of LINUX in the exact market where 64-bit W2K is supposed to be
selling in
2001.  It makes no sense to say Compaq thinks Windows2000 is the future if
they
abandoned NT today and use other 64-bit OSs today.

> > Rather, they'll target that market
> > with multiprocessor IA-32 systems, and with Merced when it comes out, both
> > running Win2K.
> >
> > http://www.theregister.co.uk/990829-000001.html
> >
> > >Windows 2000 will never run on anything not x86 unless Microsoft ports
> > >it and how many ways can we say 'fat chance?'
> >
> > It depends on what you define as "x86". Intel doesn't consider Merced to
be
> > "x86"; the instruction and register architecture are completely different.
>
> ...but upwardly compatible with 32-bit software.  Win32 (and OS/2) will
> apparently run on Merced.  Okay, how about 'Intel-based?'  But AMD
> apparently already has working prototypes of their K8 64-bit processor
> that will be announced in October.  What will we call these?  Actually,
> I think AMD actually has a better chance of getting 64-bit silicon into
> the marketplace than Intel with their Merced.  Maybe we will have to
> start saying 'AMD-based.'

It is a pedantic argument.  We can say Intel Architecture or IA for short.  
IA32
and IA64.  x86 seems to confuse Mr DenBeste.  Intel's x86 compatibility is
what
makes the joint HP-Intel CPU called Merced distinct from the other CPU it is
compatible with -- HP's PA-RISC.

> > >http://www.theregister.co.uk/990902-000010.html
> > >
> > >
> >
> > The Win2K Merced will have the capability of running IA-32 software,

or x86 software given that IA32 and x86 are the same thing.

> just
> > the way that the PPC-Mac had the ability to run 68K Mac software. The
> > transition from 68K to PPC in the Mac world took several years, and during
> > most of that time the users relied primarily on 68K applications. In many
> > cases those still ran faster on the PPC than they did on the 68K, despite
> > relying rather heavily on software emulation. There shouldn't be anything
> > like that kind of performance hit in the case of Merced, because IA-32
code
> > compatibility is in the silicon.

Bit size is not speed.  IA64 means larger address space, not faster.  In fact
a
64-bit word uses more space, more RAM.

> Such a comparison can't be made with the information available.

HP has said the PS-RISC they sell today is faster than the designed Merced
CPU.
Since HP is a partner with Intel I think they're qualified to speak about
Merced.
When Merced ships the OS will not be faster than the HP UNIX systems -- it
will be
slower.  HP can run HP UNIX on a Merced CPU but it makes no sense.

> However, the Merced will have to jump back and forth between IA-32 and
> IA-64 mode and make frequent use of its IA-32 to IA-64 decoders.  This
> will not make performance very good when running 32-bit software as
> compared with running the same software on a 32-bit processor.

ALPHA NT had a x86 translator for IA32 win32 apps.  The x86 app was translated
into Alpha code and then executed.  It allowed  access to Win32 apps but seems 
to
have made little impact.  NT ALPHA is dead.  IA64 isn't going to suceed with
translators.  It defeats the whole purpose of a IA64 system.

> > We also saw that kind of transition from Win16 to WIN32, with Win 95
leading
> > the way. In the case of Merced the transition is much easier, because the
OS
> > API should be sufficiently similar that a port from a Pentium running
Win2K
> > to a Merced also running Win2K should mostly just be a recompile to get
into
> > the native binary. (This is not like the transition from Win16 to WIN32,
> > where the APIs were completely dissimilar.)
>
> A true 64-bit Windows on Merced will likely have extensively-expanded
> APIs that will require new software to use to advantage.

1) We all heard how Win32 was so damn portable across RISC and x86 NT
versions.
Why can't MS recompile today's IA32 NT for Merced if transitioning to a 64-bit 
OS
is that damn simple?  It isn't that damn simple.

2) Why would anyone want to use a 64bit OS?  You double the word size and get
nothing but a larger potential address space.  The high end servers that
require >
32-bit addressing are going to need IA64.  Noone needs to run a 64-bit version 
of
MS office.  That would waste RAM.

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From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               06-Sep-99 16:23:05
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 05:46:03
Subj: Re: [OT] Thin clients pick up momentum

From: Steven C. Den Beste <sdenbes1@san.rr.com>

On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 13:26:08 -0400, Dennis Peterson recycled some holes into
the following pattern:

>rj friedman wrote:
>> 
>> On Sun, 5 Sep 1999 23:59:02, JM
>> <malstrom@yolen.oit.umass.edu> wrote:
>> 
>> http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?99093.pith
>> in.htm
>> 
>> Much to the chagrin of PC proponents, the thin-client movement appears to
>> be picking up steam, with a rash of recent moves signaling the next step
>> in the evolution of server-centric computing.
>> 
>> I wonder if all the people who proclimed (and are proclaimng
>> to this day) the network computer (NC) dead realize that
>> this is the "network computer" resurrected under a different
>> name.
>> 
>Consider how long it took another must-have technology to catch on and
>how important it has become: The CD player.
>
>It is only a matter of time before the light goes on and the NC becomes
>as ubiquitous. The MS attempt to achieve this same goal is SMS managed
>networks but my God, what a lashup.
>
>dp
>

What amazes me is how many people think that this is a new concept. I used a
"network computer" (local compute power but all software administered and
stored at the server) in 1983. It was a bunch of Sun/3 workstations, based
on 25 MHz 68030's, with a bigger server to which we all connected via
ethernet. Later I also used Apollo workstations, but the concept was the
same. (The big difference was that it used token ring instead of ethernet.)

You could run software on the server with the Sun/3 system but it was
strongly discouraged.

Sun also offered disk drives which could be added to the workstations if you
wanted them, and as soon as we could get the budget approved, we got them.

Perhaps the reason why I'm skeptical about the NC concept is that I actually
used them for years. I have seen nothing in the new proposals to suggest
that network and server bottlenecks will be alleviated, and that was what
caused us to hate it then. While it is true that the network pipes are wider
and the servers are faster, it's also true that the software to be loaded is
bigger and the data manipulated is also bigger. What you give with one hand
gets taken back with the other. It looks like a wash to me. And whenever the
server went down, the entire department was idled.

By the way, the only reason you can declare the CD player inevitable is with
hind sight. Looking forward, the CD and the DAT both seemed equally
desirable. Where is the DAT now?

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
              -- Calvin

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From: djohnson@isomedia.com                             06-Sep-99 17:03:04
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 05:46:03
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: "David T. Johnson" <djohnson@isomedia.com>

Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
> 
[snip]
> I define "commercial success" as "sells enough copies to make a substantial
> profit, enough so as to convince its vendor to continue substantial
> development investment in and enhancement of the product".
> 
> There can be many "commercial successes" in the same market, but in this
> particular market, OS/2 isn't one of them. IBM continues to half-heartedly
> enhance OS/2, trickling out a fixpack or new feature every once in a while,
> but it is negligible by comparison to what Microsoft is doing with NT.

Half-heartedly??  What does that mean?  Trickling out a fixpack??  What
does that mean?  They have released 11 fixpacks for v4 since September,
1996 at regular intervals.  Is that trickling?  What has Microsoft done
in that time for NT4 sufferers??  Five service packs?  Or maybe you're
talking about Windows 2000 Beta 3 Release Candidate 2 or whatever it is
today?  IBM has already put Warp Server for e-Business out on the
street.  It is a shipping product!  And IBM has invented, coded, and
published Workspace-on-Demand in that time period.  And released a MAJOR
update to Workspace-on-Demand that pumps Win32 clients out to work
stations from multiple servers.  A very impressive product, indeed.  All
of this is far more than Microsoft has done with NT since September,
1996.  But the best is yet to come! 

> 
> And as to your article, don't make the mistake of confusing "gross" with
> "net". OS/2 also has represented a substantial investment by IBM over the
> years. Has it paid all that back?

Are you suggesting that IBM is not making a profit on OS/2 when it has
gross sales of $100 million during the last five quarters?  If so, that
must mean that you think that IBM has spent MORE than $100 million on
OS/2 in that time period!!!!   Haven't you always maintained in the past
that IBM is NOT spending money on OS/2?  Or maybe that $100 million has
been spent on boxes, manuals, and cd-rom disks?  What, then?!

> 
> I don't think NT has paid back all the investment Microsoft has made in it,
> *yet*, but I think there is no chance that it will in the long run fail to
> do so. It is as near to certain as anything is in the business world that NT
> will in the long run be extremely profitable.

Well, you may be right that Microsoft will make money with NT but I
don't personally think so.  NT is starting to smell like other
spectacular MS failures.  They are spending huge amounts of money on it
and claiming that their future lies with it but look at what is actually
happening.  Microsoft originally said Windows 98 was the end of the road
and all users should plan on moving to Windows 2000.  They no longer say
this.  Windows 2000 is bogged down in development and way behind
schedule.  The growth of NT into the enterprise is stagnant.  And why
are major customers moving to WSOD when NT is available?  Linux is
making inroads.  I don't see any market segment that NT is the best
choice for.  Not the desktop, not the home, not games, not servers, not
64-bit, not anything.  Microsoft makes their money from Windows 98
preloads and Office 2000 sales.  

> 
> That's not so obvious for OS/2.
> 
Based on the sales reported in the story I referenced, it looks OS/2 is
a nice business for IBM.  Yes, $100 million is chump change for IBM but
it's pretty good considering what they spend on it which I would
estimate to be maybe half of that at most.

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From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               06-Sep-99 20:45:03
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 10:47:24
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Joseph wrote:
> 
> Bit size is not speed.  IA64 means larger address space, not faster.  In
fact a
> 64-bit word uses more space, more RAM.

Not quite.  64 bit means 64 bit bus width, meaning 64 bits can be
transferred in one atomic operation.  If a 64 bit machine at a given clock
rate operates at the same clock rate as a 32 bit machine, with all other
hardware comparable, it can transfer data 2x faster.  Often times, however,
the surrounding "other hardware" is not comparable, but better, resulting
in even faster transfers and operations.
 
> 2) Why would anyone want to use a 64bit OS?  You double the word size and
get
> nothing but a larger potential address space.  The high end servers that
require >
> 32-bit addressing are going to need IA64.  Noone needs to run a 64-bit
version of
> MS office.  That would waste RAM.

Again, not quite right for the same reason sighted above.

- Marty

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From: djohnson@isomedia.com                             06-Sep-99 17:55:11
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 10:47:24
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: David Johnson <djohnson@isomedia.com>


Joseph wrote:
> 
> David T. Johnson wrote:
> 
> > Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
> 
> > > And that isn't going to change. Both Compaq and Microsoft have stated
that
> > > they expect to continue using Alpha for this purpose. What they're not
going
> > > to do is to turn the Alpha version into a product and sell it retail,
> > > because Compaq doesn't think there's any market for the Alpha in the
space
> > > where 64-bit Win2K is expected to sell.
> >
> > The entire point of this thread is regarding Compaq's decision to END
> > development of NT on Alpha.  No, they won't turn it into a product.  No,
> > they don't think there's a market.  They are abandoning the product.
> > Here's what Compaq said:  "We will end development for all 32-bit and
> > 64-bit Windows NT products on Alpha with the delivery of V4 SP6 in late
> > 1999."  This sounds pretty clear to me.
> 
> Compaq abandoned NT and they already sell 64-bit UNIX (Tru64) and have a
64-bit
> version of LINUX in the exact market where 64-bit W2K is supposed to be
selling in
> 2001.  It makes no sense to say Compaq thinks Windows2000 is the future if
they
> abandoned NT today and use other 64-bit OSs today.
> 
> > > Rather, they'll target that market
> > > with multiprocessor IA-32 systems, and with Merced when it comes out,
both
> > > running Win2K.
> > >
> > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/990829-000001.html
> > >
> > > >Windows 2000 will never run on anything not x86 unless Microsoft ports
> > > >it and how many ways can we say 'fat chance?'
> > >
> > > It depends on what you define as "x86". Intel doesn't consider Merced to 
be
> > > "x86"; the instruction and register architecture are completely
different.
> >
> > ...but upwardly compatible with 32-bit software.  Win32 (and OS/2) will
> > apparently run on Merced.  Okay, how about 'Intel-based?'  But AMD
> > apparently already has working prototypes of their K8 64-bit processor
> > that will be announced in October.  What will we call these?  Actually,
> > I think AMD actually has a better chance of getting 64-bit silicon into
> > the marketplace than Intel with their Merced.  Maybe we will have to
> > start saying 'AMD-based.'
> 
> It is a pedantic argument.  We can say Intel Architecture or IA for short.   
IA32
> and IA64.  x86 seems to confuse Mr DenBeste.  Intel's x86 compatibility is
what
> makes the joint HP-Intel CPU called Merced distinct from the other CPU it is
> compatible with -- HP's PA-RISC.
> 
> > > >http://www.theregister.co.uk/990902-000010.html
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > The Win2K Merced will have the capability of running IA-32 software,
> 
> or x86 software given that IA32 and x86 are the same thing.

Well, almost.  The x86 term refers to 16-bit code as well.  

> 
> > just
> > > the way that the PPC-Mac had the ability to run 68K Mac software. The
> > > transition from 68K to PPC in the Mac world took several years, and
during
> > > most of that time the users relied primarily on 68K applications. In
many
> > > cases those still ran faster on the PPC than they did on the 68K,
despite
> > > relying rather heavily on software emulation. There shouldn't be
anything
> > > like that kind of performance hit in the case of Merced, because IA-32
code
> > > compatibility is in the silicon.
> 
> Bit size is not speed.  IA64 means larger address space, not faster.  In
fact a
> 64-bit word uses more space, more RAM.
> 
> > Such a comparison can't be made with the information available.
> 
> HP has said the PS-RISC they sell today is faster than the designed Merced
CPU.
> Since HP is a partner with Intel I think they're qualified to speak about
Merced.
> When Merced ships the OS will not be faster than the HP UNIX systems -- it
will be
> slower.  HP can run HP UNIX on a Merced CPU but it makes no sense.
> 
> > However, the Merced will have to jump back and forth between IA-32 and
> > IA-64 mode and make frequent use of its IA-32 to IA-64 decoders.  This
> > will not make performance very good when running 32-bit software as
> > compared with running the same software on a 32-bit processor.
> 
> ALPHA NT had a x86 translator for IA32 win32 apps.  The x86 app was
translated
> into Alpha code and then executed.  It allowed  access to Win32 apps but
seems to
> have made little impact.  NT ALPHA is dead.  IA64 isn't going to suceed with
> translators.  It defeats the whole purpose of a IA64 system.
> 
> > > We also saw that kind of transition from Win16 to WIN32, with Win 95
leading
> > > the way. In the case of Merced the transition is much easier, because
the OS
> > > API should be sufficiently similar that a port from a Pentium running
Win2K
> > > to a Merced also running Win2K should mostly just be a recompile to get
into
> > > the native binary. (This is not like the transition from Win16 to WIN32,
> > > where the APIs were completely dissimilar.)
> >
> > A true 64-bit Windows on Merced will likely have extensively-expanded
> > APIs that will require new software to use to advantage.
> 
> 1) We all heard how Win32 was so damn portable across RISC and x86 NT
versions.
> Why can't MS recompile today's IA32 NT for Merced if transitioning to a
64-bit OS
> is that damn simple?  It isn't that damn simple.

I agree.  How can we say A-S-S-E-M-B-L-Y  L-A-N-G-U-A-G-E?  A lot of
code has to be written before that IA-64 compile can be done.  Heh, heh,
heh.


> 
> 2) Why would anyone want to use a 64bit OS?  You double the word size and
get
> nothing but a larger potential address space.  The high end servers that
require >
> 32-bit addressing are going to need IA64.  Noone needs to run a 64-bit
version of
> MS office.  That would waste RAM.

I agree with you based on the software and hardware I use today. 
But...computing power has a way of growing.  I imagine that new software
and hardware will make 64-bit capabilities attractive at some point.  I
just don't know what or when.  A few years ago, I thought 4 MB of RAM
was a lot.  Now...

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From: dpeterso@halcyon.com                              06-Sep-99 18:17:05
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 10:47:25
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: Dennis Peterson <dpeterso@halcyon.com>


Joseph wrote:

[whack]

> 
> 2) Why would anyone want to use a 64bit OS?  You double the word size and
get
> nothing but a larger potential address space.  The high end servers that
require >
> 32-bit addressing are going to need IA64.  Noone needs to run a 64-bit
version of
> MS office.  That would waste RAM.

How about fewer fetch cycles for microcode and memory I/O? Did you not
notice a performance jump when 32-bit came along?

dp

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         07-Sep-99 01:22:16
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 10:47:25
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Marty writes:

>>> I would like you to list in 1 response to me here, every single point to
>>> which you would like me to concede.
 
>> That your unwarranted extrapolation of Bennie's statement was illogical.

> Agreed.

Then why did you persist for so long trying to defend its alleged logic?

>> If you still believe otherwise, show why one can equate apples to bananas,
>> which is logically consistent with your reasoning.

> Unnecessary.

Then explain why you persisted for so long trying to defend its alleged
logic.

>> That your belief that your interpretation of Bennie's statement is still
>> correct is inconsistent with your acknowledgment of Bennie's unnecessary
>> clarification.

> Sure.

Then why did you persist for so long claiming otherwise, Marty?

>> That Brad's accusation of 1600 postings in other newsgroups is a blatant
>> lie.

> Absolutely.

Then why did you claim that you had seen no evidence for Brad's lies,
Marty?

>>> I will fully admit that I am wrong to each and every point made.
 
>> Illogical, given that you didn't know what points I might list at the
>> time of your concession.

> Irrelevant.

On the contrary, it's quite relevant.

> The act of disagreeing with you makes me wrong by default.

Illogical.

>>> Just list them concisely in a response to this post (try to avoid
>>> duplication if possible).  Thanks in advance.
 
>> To what end, Marty?

> To this end:  We have nothing further to discuss. 

On the contrary, we do.  See above for some questions.

> <*plonk*>

Running away like Brad did, eh Marty?

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         07-Sep-99 01:25:17
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 10:47:25
Subj: Re: On using useful subject headers

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Esther Schindler writes:

>>> And can it *hurt* to stay relevant?
  
>> Relevant to the newsgroup or relevant to the article to which one is
>> responding?  Those are not always one and the same.

> Relevant to the article you're responding to.

When have I not been relevant to the article I'm responding to?

> If the message is off-topic, then the rest of the particpants can at
> least determine so from the message subject.

Not necessarily.

>> And can it *hurt* to stay civil?  Ask Brad Wardell sometime.  I can
>> give you 1600 reasons why.

> Tholen, please grow up.

You're erroneously presupposing that I am not grown.

> Let it go.

Why should I let go of something that Brad hasn't let go of?  Are you
trying to give him the opportunity to spread lies with impunity?

> I'm a lot more interested in OS/2 than I am in pissing contests
> between OS/2 users.

But Brad's behavior does "real damage" to OS/2, using his own reasoning,
of course.

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From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               06-Sep-99 17:49:23
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 10:47:25
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: Steven C. Den Beste <sdenbes1@san.rr.com>

On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 15:16:48 -0400, David T. Johnson recycled some holes
into the following pattern:

>Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
>> 
>> On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 10:37:37 -0400, David T. Johnson recycled some holes
>> into the following pattern:
>> 
>> >But in Microsoft's view, the Alpha is a bit player (sorry about that)
>> >and they have no real interest in pushing it.  And Compaq is staring at
>> >Windows 2000 with its 60 million or whatever lines of code that  has to
>> >be ported to the Alpha.  And Linux is here now and gathering momentum.
>> >Who can fault Compaq for dropping NT on the Alpha?  Who wouldn't do
>> >this?  The Linux/Alpha combination is a good one and may even become
>> >dominant in certain market segments.
>> 
>> The decision was made by Compaq, not by Microsoft.
>
>Didn't I say that?

No, you didn't. Microsoft was developing NT for Alpha in good faith; it
wasn't a "bit player". Compaq didn't abandon this because of the expense of
porting, because it's being implemented on the Alpha directly now.

Compaq decided to bail on this because both their customers and their ISVs
said they wanted a simplified product roadmap, which is to say fewer choices
in each category, and Compaq decided to use IA32 and IA64 in that area
instead of trying to use the Alpha there.

That decision, in turn, was based on the fact that IA32 is already an
established success in that arena.

>> The 64-bit version of NT/Win2000 is being implemented on the Alpha now,
>> because it's the only reasonable processor available on which to do it.
Once
>> Merced becomes available, it will be ported to that.
>> 
>> And that isn't going to change. Both Compaq and Microsoft have stated that
>> they expect to continue using Alpha for this purpose. What they're not
going
>> to do is to turn the Alpha version into a product and sell it retail,
>> because Compaq doesn't think there's any market for the Alpha in the space
>> where 64-bit Win2K is expected to sell.
>
>The entire point of this thread is regarding Compaq's decision to END
>development of NT on Alpha.  No, they won't turn it into a product.  No,
>they don't think there's a market.  They are abandoning the product. 
>Here's what Compaq said:  "We will end development for all 32-bit and
>64-bit Windows NT products on Alpha with the delivery of V4 SP6 in late
>1999."  This sounds pretty clear to me.  

That refers to product deliveries. Microsoft is continuing to develop the
64-bit version of Win2K on the Alpha, and Compaq will continue to support
them in that effort. 

>> Rather, they'll target that market
>> with multiprocessor IA-32 systems, and with Merced when it comes out, both
>> running Win2K.
>> 
>> http://www.theregister.co.uk/990829-000001.html
>> 
>> >Windows 2000 will never run on anything not x86 unless Microsoft ports
>> >it and how many ways can we say 'fat chance?'
>> 
>> It depends on what you define as "x86". Intel doesn't consider Merced to be
>> "x86"; the instruction and register architecture are completely different.
>
>...but upwardly compatible with 32-bit software.  Win32 (and OS/2) will
>apparently run on Merced.  Okay, how about 'Intel-based?'  But AMD
>apparently already has working prototypes of their K8 64-bit processor
>that will be announced in October.  What will we call these?  Actually,
>I think AMD actually has a better chance of getting 64-bit silicon into
>the marketplace than Intel with their Merced.  Maybe we will have to
>start saying 'AMD-based.' 

There's a long distance between saying that Merced will run IA-32 code and
saying that a computer based on Merced will run an operating system designed
for a PCI-based IA-32.

It is virtually certain that the bus controller chips will be different, for
instance. It is very likely that the BIOS will get redesigned again; this
time they ought to get PNP really right, one hopes.

With an operating system already properly adapted to the Merced, already
running appropriate drivers which abstract all of the hardware, it should be
possible to build an envelope which could run an IA-32 application by using
thunking for the app.

But I wouldn't expect to be able to take an unmodified IA-32 operating
system, no matter what it was, and expect it to run on a Merced system.
There's more to it than just binary application compatibility.

So unless IBM decides to actually create a special version of OS/2
specifically for Merced, and they've said they're not going to do that, I
do't expect to see Merced running OS/2.

>> 
>> >What is interesting re: OS/2 is that last year ZD ran a story predicting
>> >the demise of OS/2 because IBM wasn't planning to convert it to 64-bit
>> >for the x86 Intel 'Merced' processor.  Specifically, they said in May,
>> >1998: "Big Blue (IBM) has hammered another nail into the
>> >operating system's [OS/2] coffin by deciding not to deliver a 64-bit
>> >version for Intel Corporation's upcoming Merced chip."  At that time,
>> >Merced was supposed to be in production in mid-1999.  Since then, Intel
>> >has announced numerous Merced delays.  Last week, Intel claimed that
>> >they had produced working "samples" of the chip but there is quite a bit
>> >of skepticism about this.  Software developers are still planning on
>> >doing development on Merced simulators rather than actual Merced chips.
>> >And Microsoft is planning on shipping the first version of Merced
>> >Windows 2000 as a 64/32 bit hybrid rather than a 64-bit version
>> >according to the following:
>> >
>> >http://www.theregister.co.uk/990902-000010.html
>> >
>> >
>> >What this means the Merced performance with Windows NT 2000 will not be
>> >good because the processor will have to switch between IA-32 and IA-64
>> >mode.  Assuming that the Merced platform will even be stable.

I should have caught and commented on this the first time through. My
understanding from what I've read is that the code is mostly
*source*-identical between the 32-bit and 64-bit versions, but it is
recompiled for the 64-bit version to produce 64-bit native code. They've
tried to design the source so that no changes are needed for the recompile,
for instance by using a common pointer format in the C code for both 32-bit
and 64-bit versions, but I don't understand it to be the case that it will
be constantly thunking.

This will come up again below.

>> >The present situation is that Merced is still a LONG ways off (2001).  I
>> >am not yet even convinced that the present Intel design will prove to be
>> >workable or stable.  It will be even longer before there will be 64-bit
>> >Windows software.  (Several years.  How long did it take 32-bit windows
>> >software to appear after 32-bit Windows?  For that matter, how long did
>> >it take 32-bit Windows to appear AFTER the i-386 processor?).  The
>> >64-bit Linux/Alpha platform is available now.  Mr. Petreley's
>> >observations look pretty good to me.
>> 
>> The Win2K Merced will have the capability of running IA-32 software, just
>> the way that the PPC-Mac had the ability to run 68K Mac software. The
>> transition from 68K to PPC in the Mac world took several years, and during
>> most of that time the users relied primarily on 68K applications. In many
>> cases those still ran faster on the PPC than they did on the 68K, despite
>> relying rather heavily on software emulation. There shouldn't be anything
>> like that kind of performance hit in the case of Merced, because IA-32 code
>> compatibility is in the silicon.
>
>Such a comparison can't be made with the information available. 
>However, the Merced will have to jump back and forth between IA-32 and
>IA-64 mode and make frequent use of its IA-32 to IA-64 decoders.  This
>will not make performance very good when running 32-bit software as
>compared with running the same software on a 32-bit processor.

Not the way I understand it. The OS itself will stay in 64-bit mode, the way
I understand it. It's also not clear just how expensive a thunk will be this
time.

Thunking was expensive on the PPro because Intel didn't expect it to be used
heavily. On the PII, thunking is much more efficient, because by that time
Win 95 was well established.

This time Intel knows exactly what will be needed and should be designing
the thunking mechanism to be pretty efficient. I'm not sure that mode
switching will be such a performance hit.

>> 
>> We also saw that kind of transition from Win16 to WIN32, with Win 95
leading
>> the way. In the case of Merced the transition is much easier, because the
OS
>> API should be sufficiently similar that a port from a Pentium running Win2K
>> to a Merced also running Win2K should mostly just be a recompile to get
into
>> the native binary. (This is not like the transition from Win16 to WIN32,
>> where the APIs were completely dissimilar.)
>
>A true 64-bit Windows on Merced will likely have extensively-expanded
>APIs that will require new software to use to advantage.  But if the
>Windows 2000 operating system on the 64-bit processor is itself a hybrid
>of 32-bit and some 64-bit, the overall performance can't be expected to
>be good relative to Windows 2000 on current 32-bit hardware.  Of course,
>if the Merced comes out at 1500 Mhz, it will still perform pretty well
>compared to a lowly 600 Mhz Pentium III, right?     

I don't understand just what it is you think this expansion of the API would
involve. Why would anything be needed in the 64-bit version which isn't also
needed in the 32-bit version?

Also see above about 32-bit code in the OS, and about thunking performance.

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
              -- Calvin

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From: shenzhou@mailhost.net                             07-Sep-99 01:47:21
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 10:47:25
Subj: Re: Sun to proliferate Star Office...

From: shenzhou@mailhost.net (Shenzhou)

On Wed, 1 Sep 1999 03:16:55, JM <malstrom@yolen.oit.umass.edu> wrote:

> The real reason why Star Office still has no chance against Office, is 
> because coporations have standardized on Office.  They are more then 
> willing to buy their MS Office volume discount to get their standards.  
> The only thing that would have a chance to change that is a recession.  
> But as long as money is flowing, they will buy Office.
> 
There was a time when the office I was working in was standardized on 
dedicated word processors like Wang, then CP/M machines came alone and
it was WordStar. Later on it was the IBM PC and the standard became 
WordStar still and later on WordPerfect.

People make the standards and people change over time. Just because 
Office is the standard now (which is not admitted) does not mean it 
will be forever.

IMHO Sun has made a significant step in their struggle against 
microsoft by offering free compatible software over the net.

Good luck to all.


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From: forgitaboutit@fake.com                            06-Sep-99 20:34:06
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 10:47:25
Subj: Re: Why NT is not like OS/2

From: forgitaboutit@fake.com (David H. McCoy)

In article <jCrUN7F8c+nzVMU71298cLF51Fqg@4ax.com>, sdenbes1@san.rr.com 
says...
> On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 12:18:11 -0400, Joseph recycled some holes into the
> following pattern:
> 
> >
> >
> >Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 09:16:29 -0400, Joseph recycled some holes into the
> >> following pattern:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >> And what has any of this got to do with OS/2? If you want to talk
about
> >> >> this, why don't you post it to one of the Microsoft advocacy groups,
where
> >> >> it would be appropriate?
> >> >
> >> >Sure if you insist -- I can remind you once again.   NT is now as
portable and scalable
> >> >as OS/2.  Both are IA OSs. No more and no less.  Of course OS/2 runs
better on lesser
> >> >hardware.
> >>
> >> But none of that makes any difference.
> >
> >It makes a huge difference if you're a compay that adopted NT because of
expectations NT
> >would scale and become dominate.  NT is losing ground and when I point this 
fact out you'll
> >ask -- what does this have to do with OS/2 -- well NT is very much like
OS/2.  OS/2 and NT
> >are niche OSs.  You don't even use a copy of NT at home.  Think about the
implications of
> >your own decisions.
> 
> I'd be hard pressed to think of a company which adopts an operating system
> in the expectation that it would become dominant. Companies adopt operating
> systems because they solve problems. Companies don't pick tools because
> they're trying to ride a train.
> 
> 

Has this guy *ever* held a job in the real world?  

-- 
---------------------------------------
David H. McCoy
dmccoy@EXTRACT_THIS_mnsinc.com
---------------------------------------

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From: dpeterso@halcyon.com                              06-Sep-99 18:42:05
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 10:47:25
Subj: Re: [OT] Thin clients pick up momentum

From: Dennis Peterson <dpeterso@halcyon.com>


"Steven C. Den Beste" wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 13:26:08 -0400, Dennis Peterson recycled some holes into
> the following pattern:
> 
> >rj friedman wrote:
> >>
> >> On Sun, 5 Sep 1999 23:59:02, JM
> >> <malstrom@yolen.oit.umass.edu> wrote:
> >>
> >> http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?99093.pith
> >> in.htm
> >> 
> >> Much to the chagrin of PC proponents, the thin-client movement appears
to
> >> be picking up steam, with a rash of recent moves signaling the next step
> >> in the evolution of server-centric computing.
> >>
> >> I wonder if all the people who proclimed (and are proclaimng
> >> to this day) the network computer (NC) dead realize that
> >> this is the "network computer" resurrected under a different
> >> name.
> >>
> >Consider how long it took another must-have technology to catch on and
> >how important it has become: The CD player.
> >
> >It is only a matter of time before the light goes on and the NC becomes
> >as ubiquitous. The MS attempt to achieve this same goal is SMS managed
> >networks but my God, what a lashup.
> >
> >dp
> >
> 
> What amazes me is how many people think that this is a new concept. I used a
> "network computer" (local compute power but all software administered and
> stored at the server) in 1983. It was a bunch of Sun/3 workstations, based
> on 25 MHz 68030's, with a bigger server to which we all connected via
> ethernet. Later I also used Apollo workstations, but the concept was the
> same. (The big difference was that it used token ring instead of ethernet.)

Not quite the same thing - those systems did not have (Java) RMI which
changes everything. The client can be thinner than ever. Also, several
things have happened since: Switched networks, 100mb ethernet, faster
and wider CPU's cheaper, cheaper faster RAM, more commodotized
applications (email, browsers, etc.), and a greater need for kiosk
computing.

> 
> You could run software on the server with the Sun/3 system but it was
> strongly discouraged.

This is not the limiting factor it once was - distributed computing is
costly in terms of support staffing, maintenance contracts, spares depot
needs, etc. For a great many needs, CATIA workstations, for example, a
business case could be made for a NC-class system. NC's are definitely
not X terms (but certainly can do that too).

> 
> Sun also offered disk drives which could be added to the workstations if you
> wanted them, and as soon as we could get the budget approved, we got them.

A lot of this was rendered obsolete by PC's and X Terminals. There was
also a strong push by the user community to break the shackles of
main-frame thinking to allow them the freedom they had on their home
PC's. The result was chaos - just a simple case - fonts. Because there
was such a strong proliferation of typefaces in the late 80's and into
the Adobe Typemanager era, many documents became dead ended because they
could not be translated into other formats without substantial rework
(owing to font metrics, tables would become tangled, pages remapped,
cross-references lost). In a managed environment, the font/typeface set
being managed and also limited to the essentials, made the leap to such
things as PDF far easier. I automated the conversion of 10's of
thousands of documents of which probably half used unpredictable
typefaces. It was ugly, to say the least. Then there was the problem of
users who preferred WordPerfect vs. MS Word, etc., and would bring them
in from home so they could be comfortable with their work system. No SMS
in those days. It wasn't just worker bees, either. Many managers simply
refused to comply with standards.

> 
> Perhaps the reason why I'm skeptical about the NC concept is that I actually
> used them for years. I have seen nothing in the new proposals to suggest
> that network and server bottlenecks will be alleviated, and that was what
> caused us to hate it then. While it is true that the network pipes are wider
> and the servers are faster, it's also true that the software to be loaded is
> bigger and the data manipulated is also bigger. What you give with one hand
> gets taken back with the other. It looks like a wash to me. And whenever the
> server went down, the entire department was idled.

And yet we never, ever install Oracle on workstations. Soon we won't
install office suites on workstations. Winterm, for example, already
accomplishes this in a weak fashion.

> 
> By the way, the only reason you can declare the CD player inevitable is with
> hind sight. Looking forward, the CD and the DAT both seemed equally
> desirable. Where is the DAT now?

Happily streaming data to tape backup systems - something the CD is very
bad at.

> 
> --------
> Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
> Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste
> 

dp

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From: josco@ibm.net                                     06-Sep-99 19:31:28
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 15:25:23
Subj: Re: Why NT is not like OS/2

From: Joseph Coughlan <josco@ibm.net>


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

On 9-6-99, 9:08:19 PM, Steven C. Den Beste <sdenbes1@san.rr.com> wrote 
regarding Why NT is not like OS/2:


> On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 12:18:11 -0400, Joseph recycled some holes into 
the
> following pattern:


> >> But none of that makes any difference.
> >
> >It makes a huge difference if you're a compay that adopted NT because 
of expectations NT
> >would scale and become dominate.  NT is losing ground and when I 
point this fact out you'll
> >ask -- what does this have to do with OS/2 -- well NT is very much 
like OS/2.  OS/2 and NT
> >are niche OSs.  You don't even use a copy of NT at home.  Think about 
the implications of
> >your own decisions.

> I'd be hard pressed to think of a company which adopts an operating 
system
> in the expectation that it would become dominant. Companies adopt 
operating
> systems because they solve problems. Companies don't pick tools 
because
> they're trying to ride a train.

You're like a boat tacking into the wind.  Zigging and zagging into 
and out of theories.  Companies do adopt systems that they think are 
going become dominate least they have large transitional costs if the 
product fails.  -- I've seen you use this logic to argue for NT and 
Win32 and FUD OS/2.


> And NT is not losing ground in the primary markets where it's trying 
to
> compete. NT sales have been growing exponentially for the last several 
years

The sales of NT have NOT grown exponentially.  Play with a calculator 
and see what exponential growth curves look like -- NT's been out 
since August 1993.  


> If NT and OS/2 are both "niches" then either you have a strange 
definition
> of niche, or the niches are of dramatically different size.

IA systems are a niche -- IA systems running NT now, just now, scale 
to about 8 CPUs in late 1999.  That's a low end niche.
  

> >NT is very much like OS/2 -- a niche OS at the low end of corporate 
computing and limited to
> >IA CPUs.  The parallels are uncanny.

> The parallels are all inside your head.

Yes, I do think with my head.  MS copied IBM's PC business plan for 
OS/2 and they executed it better than IBM.   Still OS/2 was and is a 
PC class OS and NOS (and so is NT and Netware).  The most powerful NT 
systems were ALPHA based but they are now abandoned.  With that 
abandonment, NT's performance has been downsized!  It now matches up 
with OS/2 on the server.  That's a loss because IBM never sold OS/2 as 
a high end NOS.


> Success and failure is a single quantity for a product. Either a 
product is
> successful or it isn't.

No Steven.  NT is a single product targeted at many markets.  Success 
in one niche does not mean one can claim success in all markets. 


> NT will do that. It may already have done so. But it's questionable, 
to say
> the very least, whether OS/2 has. And if it hasn't done so by now it 
never
> will, because IBM has given up on it. It's in maintenance mode now.

Always the future tense.  It is 1999, 7 years after NT shipped.  Still 
we see future tense.  OS/2 is in maintenance mode on the desktop but 
not on the server. OS/2 is adopted to the new times.  MS will will 
adopt W2K or WinCE but they will not be able to push their fat client 
OS on the desktop.  That era is ending.


> >The more interesting question is how long can MS maintain a 
multi-billion dollar investment
> >strategy for NT on IA when the competition gets development by a 
community for ported to
> >multiple CPUs which are more powerful than IA?

> I'm having a hard time understanding just what you thought that 
sentence
> meant. I can usually winkle out a meaning from your ungrammatical
> constructions, but this one is too much for me. Care to restate it so 
that I
> can respond to what you thought you meant?

Sure. 
The more interesting question is how long can MS maintain a 
multi-billion dollar investment strategy for NT on IA when the 
competition has its development done by a community.  LINUX is 
available and ported to multiple CPUs which are more powerful than IA.


> >As a server OS, NT has to scale with IA systems which means it is now 
limited by the
> >hardware.  This is indeed very bad news.

> Compaq doesn't seem to think so; they've decided to use the IA-32 and 
IA-64
> in that market instead of trying to sell the Alpha there. (In fact, 
I'm not
> just sure who they think they *are* going to sell the Alpha to in 
future,
> because it's surely not been a success on the desktop either.)

What you say is not correct since Compaq sells OpenVMS, Tru64 UNIX and 
LINUX for ALPHA systems.  If you narrowed the commentary to NT then 
you would be correct, Compaq dumped Alpha NT.  To Comapq, NT is no 
longer a high end OS.  They'll be content to drive NT sales on IA 
systems and offer other OSs for their higher end hardware, Alpha 
systems and servers.




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From: tjhanson@tscnet.com                               07-Sep-99 02:21:04
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 15:25:23
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: tjhanson@tscnet.com (Tim Hanson)

sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste) wrote:

>On Sun, 05 Sep 1999 19:51:45 -0500, Hobbyist  recycled some holes into the
>following pattern:
>
>>In response to Chad Irby's post :
>>
>>> <hobbyist@nospam.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>> > Yes, but try going down to the corner store to get a motherboard
>>> > upgrade. 
>>> 
>>> Try doing that with a Dell, or a Compaq, or a Packard-Bell, or an
>>> eMachine, or an IBM.
>>> 
>>> As pointed out here several times, well over *half* of the Wintel PCs sold
>>> in the US have proprietary motherboards and other hardware.
>>
>>But you are reinforcing my point. All these boards are designed
>>to run multiple OS's including the one which is the center of our
>>discussion, windows.
>>
>>The MacOS is installed on Apple computers only, using one
>>proprietary motherboard type only. No unique idiosyncracies with
>>various types of motherboards and their chipsets to consider.
>>This is what increases the reliability and consistency of
>>behaviour when adding hardware.
>> 
>
>Unless, that is, you want to upgrade your G3 machine to a G4. Then you find
>out that Apple deliberately wrote the BIOS on your G3 machine to shut down
>if it finds a G4 instead of a G3, so as to force you to purchase a whole new
>machine from Apple, instead of an after-market processor upgrade from
>someone else.
>

The PPC mobo that IBM just released, will that use a G4 effectively?

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From: pasnak@delete.cableregina.com                     06-Sep-99 20:34:27
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 15:25:23
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: pasnak@delete.cableregina.com (J.P. Pasnak)

On Mon, 6 Sep 1999 20:55:21, Steven C. Den Beste <sdenbes1@san.rr.com>
woke up with a head full of whiskey and wrote:

> On 6 Sep 1999 12:24:29 -0800, J.P. Pasnak recycled some holes into the
> following pattern:
> 
> >On Mon, 6 Sep 1999 02:33:00, sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste)
> >woke up with a head full of whiskey and wrote:
> >
> >> On Sun, 05 Sep 1999 19:51:45 -0500, Hobbyist  recycled some holes into
the
> >> following pattern:
> >> 
> >> >In response to Chad Irby's post :
> >> >
> >> >> <hobbyist@nospam.net> wrote:
> >> >> 
> >> >> > Yes, but try going down to the corner store to get a motherboard
> >> >> > upgrade. 
> >> >> 
> >> >> Try doing that with a Dell, or a Compaq, or a Packard-Bell, or an
> >> >> eMachine, or an IBM.
> >> >> 
> >> >> As pointed out here several times, well over *half* of the Wintel PCs
sold
> >> >> in the US have proprietary motherboards and other hardware.
> >> >
> >> >But you are reinforcing my point. All these boards are designed
> >> >to run multiple OS's including the one which is the center of our
> >> >discussion, windows.
> >> >
> >> >The MacOS is installed on Apple computers only, using one
> >> >proprietary motherboard type only. No unique idiosyncracies with
> >> >various types of motherboards and their chipsets to consider.
> >> >This is what increases the reliability and consistency of
> >> >behaviour when adding hardware.
> >> > 
> >> 
> >> Unless, that is, you want to upgrade your G3 machine to a G4. Then you
find
> >> out that Apple deliberately wrote the BIOS on your G3 machine to shut
down
> >> if it finds a G4 instead of a G3, so as to force you to purchase a whole
new
> >> machine from Apple, instead of an after-market processor upgrade from
> >> someone else.
> >> 
> >> See:
> >> http://www.macintouch.com/bg3upgrade.html
> >> 
> >
> >Where exactly did you get 'deliberately' from?  As far as I understand
> >it, the G4 processor doesn't work with a G3 system.  Figure the 
> >freakin' odds.  Mac users have grown accustom to being able to upgrade
> >to almost anything.  And now they have hit a bump in the road.  The 
> >only ones making an 'informed' stink about this are the 'upgrade' 
> >companies who are trying to low-ball Apple.  Give it time, and you 
> >will see a 'fix', from Apple.
> >
> >J.P. Pasnak
> >Warped Systems
> 
> It worked with BIOS version 1.0, before the G4 was a blip on the screen. It
> doesn't work with BIOS version 1.1 which came out later, after they knew
> that the G4 was coming.
> 
> Why is this so difficult to believe? The Mac users whose posts I've been
> reading at Macintouch seem to have no trouble with the concept. (Oh, dear;
> it's Apple, and Apple never does anything wrong. I forgot.)
> 
> There was a bunch of discussion about it at Apple's discussion site, and
> then it suddenly all vanished. If it was a simple mistake, why would Apple
> censor it?
> 
> --------
> Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
> Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

It did not just 'vanish'.  There was an announcement that the 
discussion would be removed, and then it was removed.  The reasoning 
now slips me, but it is documented.

And there is no hard proof for any 'conspiracy' or 'censorship'.  When
hard facts come out about what is 'really' happening, what Apple has 
to say, and what can be proven as factual, then it will be time to 
react.  Right now you have a bunch of people jumping up and down about
something they do not understand, and in most cases, should not care 
about.  

J.P. Pasnak
Warped Systems
******************
http://members.xoom.com/Warped/every/everything.html
http://members.xoom.com/Warped/every/dirmap.html
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/warpedusers
*******************

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From: esther@bitranch.com                               07-Sep-99 02:43:28
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 15:25:23
Subj: Re: On using useful subject headers

From: esther@bitranch.com (Esther Schindler)

Tholen,

You may have infinite time to post such messages, but I don't.

I'm off to IBM Boston and IBM Armonk. Have a nice week.

--Esther

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From: josco@ibm.net                                     06-Sep-99 19:47:24
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 15:25:23
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net>


David Johnson wrote:

> Joseph wrote:
> >
> > David T. Johnson wrote:
> >
> > > > The Win2K Merced will have the capability of running IA-32 software,
> >
> > or x86 software given that IA32 and x86 are the same thing.
>
> Well, almost.  The x86 term refers to 16-bit code as well.

Yes.

> > 1) We all heard how Win32 was so damn portable across RISC and x86 NT
versions.
> > Why can't MS recompile today's IA32 NT for Merced if transitioning to a
64-bit OS
> > is that damn simple?  It isn't that damn simple.
>
> I agree.  How can we say A-S-S-E-M-B-L-Y  L-A-N-G-U-A-G-E?  A lot of
> code has to be written before that IA-64 compile can be done.  Heh, heh,
> heh.

And C code and code made with the assumption of bitness.

> > 2) Why would anyone want to use a 64bit OS?  You double the word size and
get
> > nothing but a larger potential address space.  The high end servers that
require >
> > 32-bit addressing are going to need IA64.  Noone needs to run a 64-bit
version of
> > MS office.  That would waste RAM.
>
> I agree with you based on the software and hardware I use today.
> But...computing power has a way of growing.  I imagine that new software
> and hardware will make 64-bit capabilities attractive at some point.  I
> just don't know what or when.  A few years ago, I thought 4 MB of RAM
> was a lot.  Now...

We're downsizing.  somewhat less power for much less cost and much less power
consumption.  We'll use more RAM but the physical amout of RAM need to
satisify a 32-bit
address space is not going to be an issue.  32-bit computing will be around
for a long
time -- we need embedded computers and less costly computers, not 64-bit
computing.
That kind of computing is for our ISP.

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         07-Sep-99 03:01:04
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 15:25:24
Subj: Re: On using useful subject headers

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Esther Schindler writes:

> You may have infinite time to post such messages,

Illogical.  Do you know how much "infinite" is?

> but I don't.

Neither do I.  In case you didn't notice, I didn't post at all from
Monday afternoon until Friday evening (HST).

> I'm off to IBM Boston and IBM Armonk.

I'm back from the AMOS Technical Conference and off to JPL.

> Have a nice week.

You too.  Consider being off to Stardock some time and give Brad
Wardell a good talking to.  I can give you 1600 reasons for doing so.

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From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               06-Sep-99 19:55:21
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 15:25:24
Subj: Why NT is different from OS/2

From: Steven C. Den Beste <sdenbes1@san.rr.com>

On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 17:03:09 -0400, David T. Johnson recycled some holes
into the following pattern:

>Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
>> 
>[snip]
>> I define "commercial success" as "sells enough copies to make a substantial
>> profit, enough so as to convince its vendor to continue substantial
>> development investment in and enhancement of the product".
>> 
>> There can be many "commercial successes" in the same market, but in this
>> particular market, OS/2 isn't one of them. IBM continues to half-heartedly
>> enhance OS/2, trickling out a fixpack or new feature every once in a while,
>> but it is negligible by comparison to what Microsoft is doing with NT.
>
>Half-heartedly??  What does that mean?  Trickling out a fixpack??  What
>does that mean?  They have released 11 fixpacks for v4 since September,
>1996 at regular intervals.  Is that trickling?  What has Microsoft done
>in that time for NT4 sufferers??  Five service packs?  Or maybe you're
>talking about Windows 2000 Beta 3 Release Candidate 2 or whatever it is
>today?  IBM has already put Warp Server for e-Business out on the
>street.  It is a shipping product!  And IBM has invented, coded, and
>published Workspace-on-Demand in that time period.  And released a MAJOR
>update to Workspace-on-Demand that pumps Win32 clients out to work
>stations from multiple servers.  A very impressive product, indeed.  All
>of this is far more than Microsoft has done with NT since September,
>1996.  But the best is yet to come! 
>
>> 
>> And as to your article, don't make the mistake of confusing "gross" with
>> "net". OS/2 also has represented a substantial investment by IBM over the
>> years. Has it paid all that back?
>
>Are you suggesting that IBM is not making a profit on OS/2 when it has
>gross sales of $100 million during the last five quarters?  If so, that
>must mean that you think that IBM has spent MORE than $100 million on
>OS/2 in that time period!!!!   Haven't you always maintained in the past
>that IBM is NOT spending money on OS/2?  Or maybe that $100 million has
>been spent on boxes, manuals, and cd-rom disks?  What, then?!

The gross margin on software, while much higher than on hardware, is nowhere
near 100%. There are non-trivial expenses associated with selling software.
There are all those salesmen to pay, or there are the stores and
distributors. There's advertising, such as it's been. There are support
costs. You have to reproduce the product. And there's a lot of investment
backlog.

There was nontrivial investment back in the 80's and early 90's to get to
this point. That all has to be paid back, with interest.

>> 
>> I don't think NT has paid back all the investment Microsoft has made in it,
>> *yet*, but I think there is no chance that it will in the long run fail to
>> do so. It is as near to certain as anything is in the business world that
NT
>> will in the long run be extremely profitable.
>
>Well, you may be right that Microsoft will make money with NT but I
>don't personally think so.  NT is starting to smell like other
>spectacular MS failures.  They are spending huge amounts of money on it
>and claiming that their future lies with it but look at what is actually
>happening.  Microsoft originally said Windows 98 was the end of the road
>and all users should plan on moving to Windows 2000.  They no longer say
>this.  Windows 2000 is bogged down in development and way behind

No, what they're saying is that they're going to run one more generation on
the Windows line and then shut it down. The end is coming, it's just been
delayed. Changes in plan happen in business; it's a fact of life.

>schedule.  The growth of NT into the enterprise is stagnant.  And why

Sorry, the growth of NT into the enterprise is not even remotely stagnant.
http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?990719.ecmicrosoft.htm

July 19, 1999: "The worldwide installed base of Windows NT Workstation more
than doubled since June 1998, to more than 37 million licensed users. The
operating system is being pre-installed on almost 30 percent of all business
PCs shipped, Microsoft said."

April 1998: According to ZD InfoBeads, between June 1996 and April 1998,
NT's share of the PC server marketplace rose from 18% to 43%. This was
mostly at the expense of Netware, which dropped from 67% to 48%. (The
article doesn't seem to be online anymore. I stored an HTML copy of it.)

>are major customers moving to WSOD when NT is available?  Linux is
>making inroads.  I don't see any market segment that NT is the best
>choice for.  Not the desktop, not the home, not games, not servers, not
>64-bit, not anything.  Microsoft makes their money from Windows 98
>preloads and Office 2000 sales.  

NT is the best choice for people who want broad variety of applications, or
for whom the only applications which can solve their problems are only
available on NT.

>> 
>> That's not so obvious for OS/2.
>> 
>Based on the sales reported in the story I referenced, it looks OS/2 is
>a nice business for IBM.  Yes, $100 million is chump change for IBM but
>it's pretty good considering what they spend on it which I would
>estimate to be maybe half of that at most.

When you're in the process of closing down a product line, you can often
nurse it for quite a lot of cash flow. But that doesn't mean that in the
grand scheme of things, in the long run, that the product line was
profitable.

Unless it made sufficient profit to pay back all those thousands of man
years which were involved in creating it in the first place, it isn't really
profitable.

You invest that money up front, as IBM did with OS/2 and Microsoft did with
NT, in expectation that the product will later do enough sales to not only
pay for "cost of manufacturing" but also pay back more than the investment
it cost to create it in the first place, plus interest. I would have to see
hard numbers from IBM to believe that OS/2 actually did that.

With the amount of time and effort that went into it, I don't believe you
can make a profit off of 20 million units at the price it was being sold
for.

NT has already sold twice that, and while sales of OS/2 are trickling to a
stop, NT is just beginning to really take offf. Next year NT in one form or
another will sell even more than it did this year. I don't see anything that
can keep it from selling 100 million units in the long run, and that is
enough to be profitable -- in the long run.

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
              -- Calvin

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From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               06-Sep-99 20:04:13
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 15:25:24
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: Steven C. Den Beste <sdenbes1@san.rr.com>

On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 16:34:33 -0400, Joseph recycled some holes into the
following pattern:

>David T. Johnson wrote:
>
>> Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
>
>> > And that isn't going to change. Both Compaq and Microsoft have stated
that
>> > they expect to continue using Alpha for this purpose. What they're not
going
>> > to do is to turn the Alpha version into a product and sell it retail,
>> > because Compaq doesn't think there's any market for the Alpha in the
space
>> > where 64-bit Win2K is expected to sell.
>>
>> The entire point of this thread is regarding Compaq's decision to END
>> development of NT on Alpha.  No, they won't turn it into a product.  No,
>> they don't think there's a market.  They are abandoning the product.
>> Here's what Compaq said:  "We will end development for all 32-bit and
>> 64-bit Windows NT products on Alpha with the delivery of V4 SP6 in late
>> 1999."  This sounds pretty clear to me.
>
>Compaq abandoned NT and they already sell 64-bit UNIX (Tru64) and have a
64-bit
>version of LINUX in the exact market where 64-bit W2K is supposed to be
selling in
>2001.  It makes no sense to say Compaq thinks Windows2000 is the future if
they
>abandoned NT today and use other 64-bit OSs today.

What do you think the following quote from Jim Boak of Compaq means, pray
tell?

"Compaq always intended to bring IA64 products to market which would host
the 64 bit Windows products."

Doesn't sound like an abandonment of NT to me. What they're going to use in
that market is Win2K, not Linux. Boak says so, in so many words, in this
article:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/990829-000001.html

"The change over the last few weeks is that we are no longer planning to
offer an Alpha product in that same market space. We have seen, from the
strong performance and customer enthusiasm for our 8-way ProLiant servers,
that these products are now able to compete in performance 
with the best of the RISC architectures."

Proliant servers are based on IA32. Their market plan is to not offer ANY
*Alpha* product in that market at all. No Linux, no VMS, no anything. Their
plan is to offer IA32 and IA64, running Windows NT/Win2K.

Why is this so difficult for you to understand? He makes it extremely clear.

Dare I say it? Are you having reading comprehension problems?

>> just
>> > the way that the PPC-Mac had the ability to run 68K Mac software. The
>> > transition from 68K to PPC in the Mac world took several years, and
during
>> > most of that time the users relied primarily on 68K applications. In many
>> > cases those still ran faster on the PPC than they did on the 68K, despite
>> > relying rather heavily on software emulation. There shouldn't be anything
>> > like that kind of performance hit in the case of Merced, because IA-32
code
>> > compatibility is in the silicon.
>
>Bit size is not speed.  IA64 means larger address space, not faster.  In fact 
a
>64-bit word uses more space, more RAM.

It is nonetheless the case that Merced will be faster, unrelated to its bit
size. One of the reasons that the design process has taken so long is that
they're working very hard on making the architecture *start* at 600 MHz, and
move up, far up, from there. The existing Pentium family will probably top
out in a couple of hundred more megahertz from where we are now.

And just in passing, what makes you think that a 64 bit processor can't load
and store shorter values than that? Every multibyte processor I've ever
programmed can do it.

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
              -- Calvin

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From: leaper@bigfoot.com                                06-Sep-99 22:28:13
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 15:25:24
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: "Quantum Leaper" <leaper@bigfoot.com>

I-TEC <dshailes@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:7r12eo$pia$1@uranium.btinternet.com...
> you find IE5 works? open more then 10 windows? - it crashes - I have
PII333
> etc and AMD 350 both machine crash like hell running Windows 98 - I had to
> type a letter on my A3010 the other day!
>
Hmm...  IE5 doesn't like more than ~30 windows on my PII400,  at that point
it tells me I out of memory.
BTW I doesn't crash even if I have ~30 windows open.

> Its crap - Netscape if you got to use PC!
>

Netscape crashs when I click on links,  IE5 never did that!

> did you know that if you design a web site with HTML the right way it
looks
> crap in IE!

I would say that you have a crappy designer,  I can make a web site look
good with just about any browser.  Though it may not look the same in each
one,  browser offset is one problem and there are other problems.  I problem
I have is not all browser (including different versions) do the same thing
every time.



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From: djohnson@isomedia.com                             06-Sep-99 20:27:11
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 15:25:24
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: "David T. Johnson" <djohnson@isomedia.com>

Steven C. Den Beste wrote:

> There's a long distance between saying that Merced will run IA-32 code and
> saying that a computer based on Merced will run an operating system designed
> for a PCI-based IA-32.
> 
> It is virtually certain that the bus controller chips will be different, for
> instance. It is very likely that the BIOS will get redesigned again; this
> time they ought to get PNP really right, one hopes.
> 
> With an operating system already properly adapted to the Merced, already
> running appropriate drivers which abstract all of the hardware, it should be
> possible to build an envelope which could run an IA-32 application by using
> thunking for the app.
> 
> But I wouldn't expect to be able to take an unmodified IA-32 operating
> system, no matter what it was, and expect it to run on a Merced system.
> There's more to it than just binary application compatibility.
> 
> So unless IBM decides to actually create a special version of OS/2
> specifically for Merced, and they've said they're not going to do that, I
> do't expect to see Merced running OS/2.
> 

Current Intel-based machines already use a variety of bus-controller
chips from ALi, Via, Intel, and now, AMD with their 'Irongate' chipset
for the Athlon.  Even OS/2 has drivers that work with these different
southbridge chipsets in one way or another.  Don't see why this would
not happen with Merced.  

And IBM has *never* said they would not port OS/2 to Merced.  What they
said in May, 1998 is that they did not have plans to do that at that
time.  

[snip]
> 
> I don't understand just what it is you think this expansion of the API would
> involve. Why would anything be needed in the 64-bit version which isn't also
> needed in the 32-bit version?
> 
I am sure there will be new functionality with a 64-bit OS.  Can't point
to something specifically but historically, this has always occurred.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               06-Sep-99 23:41:13
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 15:25:24
Subj: Re: On using useful subject headers

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Esther Schindler wrote:
> 
> Tholen,
> 
> You may have infinite time to post such messages, but I don't.
> 
> I'm off to IBM Boston and IBM Armonk. Have a nice week.

Isn't Armonk a beautiful facility?  I did my orientation with IBM there. 
The food and scenery were excellent.

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From: lwriemen@wcic.cioe.com                            07-Sep-99 03:48:21
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 15:25:24
Subj: Re: Tholen's thoughts

From: lwriemen@wcic.cioe.com (Lee Riemenschneider)

On Sat, 4 Sep 1999 18:48:04, esther@bitranch.com (Esther Schindler) 
wrote:

> Dave,
> 
> This has nothing to do with NPR or the media.
> 
> If you insist on taking a tangent, please do the rest of us the 
> kindness of changing the message subject.
> 
Of course, Brad's rant about NPR's supposed liberal bias had little to 
do with the original subject matter, and even less to do with OS/2.  I 
guess I could have changed the subject to Wardell's thoughts, but ... 
;-)

Lee W. Riemenschneider 
Die Hard Purdue Fan!
OS/2 User and Supporter 

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From: "operagost"@e-mail.com (remove t...               07-Sep-99 04:21:01
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 15:25:24
Subj: Re: [OT] Thin clients pick up momentum

Message sender: "operagost"@e-mail.com (remove the - )

From: Stephen Eickhoff <"operagost"@e-mail.com (remove the - )>


Dennis Peterson wrote:

> "Steven C. Den Beste" wrote:
>
> > By the way, the only reason you can declare the CD player inevitable is
with
> > hind sight. Looking forward, the CD and the DAT both seemed equally
> > desirable. Where is the DAT now?
>
> Happily streaming data to tape backup systems - something the CD is very
> bad at.

It's also in nearly every commercial recording studio in North America, used
both
for inexpensive 2-track masters (although being supplanted by CD-R) and
multitrack
recorders.

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From: titanium@psn.net                                  07-Sep-99 00:40:26
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 15:25:24
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: titanium@psn.net (ZnU)

In article <7r20n4$ruu@newsops.execpc.com>, "Quantum Leaper"
<leaper@bigfoot.com> wrote:

> I-TEC <dshailes@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:7r12eo$pia$1@uranium.btinternet.com...
> > you find IE5 works? open more then 10 windows? - it crashes - I have
> PII333
> > etc and AMD 350 both machine crash like hell running Windows 98 - I had to
> > type a letter on my A3010 the other day!
> >
> Hmm...  IE5 doesn't like more than ~30 windows on my PII400,  at that point
> it tells me I out of memory.
> BTW I doesn't crash even if I have ~30 windows open.

30 windows? Jeez. I thought I was bad.

> > Its crap - Netscape if you got to use PC!
> >
> 
> Netscape crashs when I click on links,  IE5 never did that!

On the Mac the situation is somewhat reversed. IE 4.5 is the only program
that can reliably crash the OS on my G3. Netscape has crashed all of two
times ever, leaving the OS up both times. And one of those crashes was due
to me deleting its preferences folder while it was running <g>.

> > did you know that if you design a web site with HTML the right way it
> looks
> > crap in IE!
> 
> I would say that you have a crappy designer,  I can make a web site look
> good with just about any browser.  Though it may not look the same in each
> one,  browser offset is one problem and there are other problems.  I problem
> I have is not all browser (including different versions) do the same thing
> every time.

I've had correctly written HTML that works just fine in Netscape and iCab
and is actually compliant with the HTML 4.0 spec(!!!) render incorrectly
in IE 4.5 for Mac and render incorrectly in a totally different way in IE
4 and 5 on Win '98. Hopefully MS will fix this in IE 5 for Mac this fall
and whatever the next release for the PC is. At least IE doesn't support
the <BLINK> tag :-)

And Mozilla is due out before the end of the year. Unlike IE and Netscape
it'll strictly adhere to standards.

-- 
This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a
means of communication. The device is inherently of no value to us.
        - Western Union internal memo, 1876. 

ZnU <titanium@psn.net>

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         07-Sep-99 05:46:18
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 15:25:24
Subj: Re: On using useful subject headers

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Marty writes:

> Esther Schindler wrote:
 
>> You may have infinite time to post such messages, but I don't.
>> 
>> I'm off to IBM Boston and IBM Armonk. Have a nice week.

> Isn't Armonk a beautiful facility?  I did my orientation with IBM there. 
> The food and scenery were excellent.

Too bad they didn't add logic training to the orientation.

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From: josco@ibm.net                                     06-Sep-99 23:11:20
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 15:25:24
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: Joseph Coughlan <josco@ibm.net>


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

On 9-6-99, 10:17:11 PM, Dennis Peterson <dpeterso@halcyon.com> wrote 
regarding Re: Why NT is x86 only:


> Joseph wrote:

> [whack]

> >
> > 2) Why would anyone want to use a 64bit OS?  You double the word size 
and get
> > nothing but a larger potential address space.  The high end servers 
that require >
> > 32-bit addressing are going to need IA64.  Noone needs to run a 64-bit 
version of
> > MS office.  That would waste RAM.

> How about fewer fetch cycles for microcode and memory I/O? Did you not
> notice a performance jump when 32-bit came along?

No. But I was intel based at the time of the switch from 16 to 32 bit. 

Historically, at the same clock rate, the 80386 was slower than the 
80286 when running 16-bit codes like Netware and OS/2 1.x and 
Windows3.x.  The bus was still ISA at that time but the 32-bit CPU 
wasn't faster -- it just did more like Virtual DOS session, and memory 
management.  The 486 was faster because of the 8kb cache.  Today's 
MIPS systems are fast because they have a MB caches. 

The fastest systems I can use run SGI's IRIX.  They have (I think) 4MB 
of cache per CPU and we're getting access to a 256 CPU system -- one 
of the larger "single image" systems made. Upgrading the IRIX OS on an 
older compute server I co-support didn't seem to make any noticeable 
improvement in model runs that usually take 10 hours.  Now SGI is 
talking about putting LINUX on these computers.

Since my (and many) models are more limited by RAM and then disk 
space, the move to 64-bit hurt but I made some changes in the codes to 
use short ints and got the model's footprint down.  As I understand 
RISC computational bottlenecks, they are due to RAM access as the RAM 
amounts increase.  IMHO 64-bit words do not help.

To me the advancements in personal computing are in very smaller, and 
much cheaper computers which means computers can be embedded into many 
things hence "pervasive computing".  In that realm of truly personal 
computing, 32-bit processors are more than enough.  



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From: josco@ibm.net                                     06-Sep-99 23:24:26
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 15:25:24
Subj: Re: [OT] Thin clients pick up momentum

From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net>


Steven C. Den Beste wrote:

> On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 13:26:08 -0400, Dennis Peterson recycled some holes into
> the following pattern:
> >It is only a matter of time before the light goes on and the NC becomes
> >as ubiquitous. The MS attempt to achieve this same goal is SMS managed
> >networks but my God, what a lashup.
>
> What amazes me is how many people think that this is a new concept. I used a
> "network computer" (local compute power but all software administered and
> stored at the server) in 1983. It was a bunch of Sun/3 workstations, based
> on 25 MHz 68030's, with a bigger server to which we all connected via
> ethernet. Later I also used Apollo workstations, but the concept was the
> same. (The big difference was that it used token ring instead of ethernet.)

> Perhaps the reason why I'm skeptical about the NC concept is that I actually
> used them for years. I have seen nothing in the new proposals to suggest
> that network and server bottlenecks will be alleviated, and that was what
> caused us to hate it then. While it is true that the network pipes are wider
> and the servers are faster, it's also true that the software to be loaded is
> bigger and the data manipulated is also bigger. What you give with one hand
> gets taken back with the other. It looks like a wash to me. And whenever the
> server went down, the entire department was idled.

What a red herring.  When the server or network goes down all keyserved MS
apps
don't work.  They reside and are maintained on the local disk but keyserved MS
apps are very common in the workplace.  I use one.

NCs are not network limited unless you have a dumb network topology.  I run
100
MB between all my systems.  It took a minor investment -- a switch.  And I
understand X11R6 is quite efficient over networks -- it was designed for that
purpose in mind.  Where you are right is that many shops have been using UNIX
and
x-terminals as NCs for a long time and the concept is as valid then as now. 
For
years I have used windows3.0 and OS/2 as terminals for UNIX based apps.  I
even
have x-server software on a Mac.

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From: josco@ibm.net                                     06-Sep-99 23:54:21
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 15:25:24
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: Joseph Coughlan <josco@ibm.net>


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

On 9-7-99, 3:04:27 AM, Steven C. Den Beste <sdenbes1@san.rr.com> wrote 
regarding Re: Why NT is x86 only:


> On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 16:34:33 -0400, Joseph recycled some holes into 
the
> following pattern:

> >David T. Johnson wrote:
> >
> >> Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
> >
> >> > And that isn't going to change. Both Compaq and Microsoft have stated 
that
> >> > they expect to continue using Alpha for this purpose. What they're 
not going
> >> > to do is to turn the Alpha version into a product and sell it retail,
> >> > because Compaq doesn't think there's any market for the Alpha in the 
space
> >> > where 64-bit Win2K is expected to sell.
> >>
> >> The entire point of this thread is regarding Compaq's decision to END
> >> development of NT on Alpha.  No, they won't turn it into a product.  
No,
> >> they don't think there's a market.  They are abandoning the product.
> >> Here's what Compaq said:  "We will end development for all 32-bit and
> >> 64-bit Windows NT products on Alpha with the delivery of V4 SP6 in 
late
> >> 1999."  This sounds pretty clear to me.
> >
> >Compaq abandoned NT and they already sell 64-bit UNIX (Tru64) and 
have a 64-bit
> >version of LINUX in the exact market where 64-bit W2K is supposed to 
be selling in
> >2001.  It makes no sense to say Compaq thinks Windows2000 is the 
future if they
> >abandoned NT today and use other 64-bit OSs today.

> What do you think the following quote from Jim Boak of Compaq means, 
pray
> tell?

> "Compaq always intended to bring IA64 products to market which would 
host
> the 64 bit Windows products."

> Doesn't sound like an abandonment of NT to me. What they're going to 
use in
> that market is Win2K, not Linux. Boak says so, in so many words, in 
this
> article:

That's plain nuts Steven.  The issue is ALPHA. 

I posted links to Compaq's LINUX and Tru64 UNIX and OpenVMS OSss which 
are 64 bit today. It is insanity to say Compaq is going to use NT for 
64 bit computing when they already offer 64 bit computing today -- 
just not with NT.  Compaq's intentions for ALPHA are present tense -- 
UNIX, VMS and LINUX.  

> >Bit size is not speed.  IA64 means larger address space, not faster.  
In fact a
> >64-bit word uses more space, more RAM.

> It is nonetheless the case that Merced will be faster, unrelated to 
its bit
> size. One of the reasons that the design process has taken so long is 
that
> they're working very hard on making the architecture *start* at 600 
MHz, and
> move up, far up, from there. The existing Pentium family will probably 
top
> out in a couple of hundred more megahertz from where we are now.

Fact is Merced's speed isn't supposed to beat HP's PA-RISC.  HP says 
so and they are a partner with Intel. Merced will be the best IA CPU 
but that's not to say the Merced will beat Sparc or MIPS or PPC or 
even HP's PS RISC.  That's why it's so laughable that NT/W2K is stuck 
on IA systems.  It is so handicapped.

> And just in passing, what makes you think that a 64 bit processor 
can't load
> and store shorter values than that? Every multibyte processor I've 
ever
> programmed can do it.

Maybe Steven -- maybe W2K will support multi-byte processing.  Maybe 
it will continue to trail the other Oss.  Maybe you'll buy NT someday. 
 Then again, maybe not.  I think the first multibyte system I'll own 
will be a Dreamcast console.




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From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net                            07-Sep-99 08:29:07
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 15:25:24
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens)

On Mon, 6 Sep 1999 19:07:05, Amiga User <amiga_2001@yahoo.com> wrote:

> In article <1738.917T2063T14074268AmigaPhil@ping.be>,
>   "Philippe Duchenne" <AmigaPhil@ping.be> wrote:
> > Hello there Amiga User !
> > On 27-Aot-99  00:11:20, you wrote about Re: [MS-bashing] New collection
of
> > anti-Microsoft banners :
> >
> > > In article <830.907T2968T254613AmigaPhil@ping.be>,
> > >   "Philippe Duchenne" <AmigaPhil@ping.be> wrote:
> > >> A new collection of "Anti-Microsoft" Web banners is available at
> > >>
> > >>   <URL:http://www.ping.be/amigaphil/pic/SBull.html>
> > >>
> > >> Those are based on a "Microsoft FREE" seal (16 colors, Netscape palette
> > >> used)
> > >>
> > >> Other collections have been updated too :
> > >>
> > >>  - More cream pies for Bill Gates
> > >>    <URL:http://www.ping.be/amigaphil/pic/SBill.html>
> >
> > >   I guess this kind of stuff appeals to people who have an inferiority
> > > complex.
> >
> > You don't have much knowledge in psychology, do you ?
> 
>   Let's see, you have people who lie in wait in the shadows until
> Bill Gates shows up.  Then they throw a pie in his face and run away
> like cowards.  Do these people really make you proud to be a Belgian?
> 
Lessee.
You have all these dudes sitting around, waiting for Gates to turn up.
Then they get on all fours and start brown-nosing like depraved 
doggies.
That really makes you proud to be an American, does it?

Karel Jansens
jansens_at_ibm_dot_net
=======================================================
If we could have our cake _and_ eat it,
people would start whining about seconds.
=======================================================

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From: kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com               07-Sep-99 01:49:00
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 15:25:24
Subj: Re: [OT] Thin clients pick up momentum

From: "Kim Cheung" <kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com>

On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 23:24:52 -0400, Joseph wrote:

>What a red herring.  When the server or network goes down all keyserved MS
apps
>don't work.  They reside and are maintained on the local disk but keyserved
MS
>apps are very common in the workplace.  I use one.

Yep.   Red herring indeed.   With all the modern technology in switching,
zero-data loss clustering, routable DHCP packets, and so on and so on, he had
to compare dumb terminal technology with Network Computing.    

The issue of the whole department idling because of a server going down is
absurb.   Much of the world stops running if people can't gain access to the
central database.   So, what else is new?   Mission critical network
technology is getting to be a mature technology - unless you use NT network,
of course.   

Not saying that it will never fail but the benefit is order of magnitude to
the risk.

I sure am glad he didn't get to design AT&T or MCI's ATM switch backbone.    



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From: hobbyist@nospam.net                               07-Sep-99 07:46:24
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 15:25:25
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hobbyist_=A9?= <hobbyist@nospam.net>

In response to ZnU's post :

> On the Mac the situation is somewhat reversed. IE 4.5 is the only program
> that can reliably crash the OS on my G3. Netscape has crashed all of two
> times ever, leaving the OS up both times. And one of those crashes was due
> to me deleting its preferences folder while it was running <g>.

Interesting how experiences vary. A friend of mine is a graphic
artist and uses a Mac. It's his machine that I fiddle around to
familiarise myself with the interface. During every single
browsing session I have done on his machine using Netscape, I've
experienced  at least one hang, necessitating a power down and
up. I'm amazed at how resilient he is with hangs. I sat and
watched him create a pattern using Photoshop and using it as a
layer to enhance an poster. After half an hour at doing this his
Mac hanged and he had to reboot and START OVER!!! I asked him how
often that type of thing occurred and he said too often. 

Intolerable!

I have since then advised him that he will not sell me on the Mac
based on the Mac OS.
-- 
-=Ali=- 

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From: rjf@yyycomasia.com                                07-Sep-99 12:54:10
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 15:25:25
Subj: Re: [OT] Thin clients pick up momentum

From: rjf@yyycomasia.com (rj friedman)

On Mon, 6 Sep 1999 22:42:11, Dennis Peterson 
<dpeterso@halcyon.com> wrote:

> What amazes me is how many people think that this is a new concept. I used
a
> "network computer" (local compute power but all software administered and
> stored at the server) in 1983. It was a bunch of Sun/3 workstations, based
> on 25 MHz 68030's, with a bigger server to which we all connected via
> ethernet. Later I also used Apollo workstations, but the concept was the
> same. (The big difference was that it used token ring instead of ethernet.)

Not quite the same thing - 

Not the same a bit - one being company specific and limited 
to the apps that the administrator deemed necessary for you 
to have; the other being world wide, with the freedom to 
pick and choose what you want; how you want it; and what you
want to do with it.

(Provided MS doesn't extend its monopoly into control of the
internet - if it does, we'll be picking and choosing [ha] 
whatever Ballmer and Gates decide what's best for us, and 
doing only what they have limited us to doing - plus they 
will have their Big Brother software in place to make sure 
that we go where they tell us to).

[Mr. Broccolli utters:]
> Perhaps the reason why I'm skeptical about the NC concept is that I
actually
> used them for years...

Perhaps the reason why you are so skeptical about the NC 
concept is that you mistakenly (or purposely) characterize 
it as the same as what you had in 83.

Then, again, perhaps the reason why you are so skeptical 
about the NC concept is that it threatens MS' dominance.

Then, again, it's probably both.



________________________________________________________

[RJ]                 OS/2 - Live it, or live with it. 
rj friedman          Team ABW              
Taipei, Taiwan       rjf@yyycomasia.com 

To send email - remove the `yyy'
________________________________________________________

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From: rerbert@wxs.nl                                    07-Sep-99 15:11:16
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 15:25:25
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: Gerben Bergman <rerbert@wxs.nl>

So many stormy nights, so many wrongs or rights, David T. Johnson said:

| I don't see any market segment that NT is the best choice for. Not the
| desktop, not the home, not games, not servers, not 64-bit, not anything.

NT is the best choice for power users who want a stable, decent platform as
well as wide hardware/software support. I, for instance, don't want to be
limited in choosing new components and/or applications, I couldn't care less
about playing games, I want a polished, workable GUI, and I sincerely *hate*
it when my OS croaks under pressure -- hence my choosing NT.

Granted, I don't know how large a market segment I represent, but saying
that NT is best for nothing is simply not true; there *are* people who know
what they're doing and *yet* willingly choose NT because it fits their needs
best. No, really.

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From: rjf@yyycomasia.com                                07-Sep-99 13:15:15
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 15:25:25
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: rjf@yyycomasia.com (rj friedman)

On Mon, 6 Sep 1999 21:03:09, "David T. Johnson" 
<djohnson@isomedia.com> wrote:

[Mr. Broccolli utters:]
> I don't think NT has paid back all the investment Microsoft has made in it,
> *yet*, but I think there is no chance that it will in the long run fail to
> do so. It is as near to certain as anything is in the business world that
NT
> will in the long run be extremely profitable.

Well, you may be right that Microsoft will make money with NT but I
don't personally think so.  NT is starting to smell like other
spectacular MS failures.  They are spending huge amounts of money on it
and claiming that their future lies with it but look at what is actually
happening...

A year or so back, I posted an article - complete with 
backup URLs - in which the NT product manager actually came 
out and said that the ONLY way that NT will be a success - 
both in terms of number of sales, and in terms of revenue - 
is if they can make it the defacto preload - including 
displacing Windows 9x and its successors.

In spite of what Mr. Bullshit (I mean Mr. Broccolli), has to
say about it, NT is not now - nor has it ever been - a 
success in either sense of the word. And now, with Linux 
coming on as the server OS, and NT a total disaster as a 
replacement for Windows 9x, the only way that NT is going to
be the defacto preload is for MS to pull the same monopoly 
tactics that they used to force the industry off of 3.1 and 
on to 95. Only, this time, between the DOJ, the internet, 
and the growing realization that NT is an overbloated 
dinosaur, their chances of getting away with it are a LOT 
less this time around.



________________________________________________________

[RJ]                 OS/2 - Live it, or live with it. 
rj friedman          Team ABW              
Taipei, Taiwan       rjf@yyycomasia.com 

To send email - remove the `yyy'
________________________________________________________

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From: josco@ibm.net                                     07-Sep-99 06:33:14
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 16:46:11
Subj: Re: Sun to proliferate Star Office...

From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net>


Dennis Peterson wrote:

> Joseph wrote:
> >
> > Dennis Peterson wrote:
>
>
> > I think a site that offered users access to MS file filters would do MS
> > harm.  A site where you submit and get back a translated file.  The
service
> > would use standard file formats and possibly offer the user the ability to
> > generate a PDF file.  I use such a service for graphic files.  A company
> > like SUN or IBM could easily fund the file translation site and offter the
> > filters as downloads.
>
> Such a site has immediate appeal until you consider the issue of
> security. What corporation is going to send internal documents to such a
> site? (hint: none).

I'm talking about a site for backing up and servicing my home system.

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From: joe.ragosta@dol.net                               07-Sep-99 09:29:15
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 18:14:23
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)

In article <nFhIE53VxpbN-pn2-zz9YwYMQIU08@ip105.net247213.cr.sk.ca>,
pasnak@delete.cableregina.com (J.P. Pasnak) wrote:

> It did not just 'vanish'.  There was an announcement that the 
> discussion would be removed, and then it was removed.  The reasoning 
> now slips me, but it is documented.

Simple.

It was off-topic, so it was deleted--just like the other off-topic threads
on that board.

-- 
Regards,

Joe Ragosta

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From: paul.support@argonet.co.uk                        07-Sep-99 15:21:22
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 18:14:23
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: "Ant Support (Paul)" <paul.support@argonet.co.uk>

In article <4gfVN0xhhdmZP1YGX2u04nkvVD5d@4ax.com>, Hobbyist_
<URL:mailto:hobbyist@nospam.net> wrote:
> Interesting how experiences vary. A friend of mine is a graphic artist and
> uses a Mac. It's his machine that I fiddle around to familiarise myself
> with the interface. During every single browsing session I have done on his
> machine using Netscape, I've experienced  at least one hang, necessitating
> a power down and up. 
[snippety snip]

How much memory is fitted in the Mac, and how much is configured for the
virtual memory system? I've found that Netscape can sometimes lock the
machine up when it's getting low on memory.

IME MacOS is more unreliable than RISC OS in low memory situations.
-- 
Paul Vigay
     _                       _________________________________
    /_| _ _. _  /| /_ _/_  /'      ANT Technical Support
   /  || (_|(_)/ |/(/_/_  /   mailto:ant.support@argonet.co.uk
________ (_) ___________./     http://www.argonet.co.uk/ant/

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From: dpeterso@halcyon.com                              07-Sep-99 07:27:25
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 18:14:23
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: Dennis Peterson <dpeterso@halcyon.com>

"Steven C. Den Beste" wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 10:37:37 -0400, David T. Johnson recycled some holes
> into the following pattern:
> 
> >But in Microsoft's view, the Alpha is a bit player (sorry about that)
> >and they have no real interest in pushing it.  And Compaq is staring at
> >Windows 2000 with its 60 million or whatever lines of code that  has to
> >be ported to the Alpha.  And Linux is here now and gathering momentum.
> >Who can fault Compaq for dropping NT on the Alpha?  Who wouldn't do
> >this?  The Linux/Alpha combination is a good one and may even become
> >dominant in certain market segments.
> 
> The decision was made by Compaq, not by Microsoft.
> 
> The 64-bit version of NT/Win2000 is being implemented on the Alpha now,
> because it's the only reasonable processor available on which to do it. Once
> Merced becomes available, it will be ported to that.

Sparc processors are making a lot of IS folks rich. BTW, NT runs on the
Sun Enterprise 10000 but no takers. It is a solution without a problem.
With 24 400mhz CPU's and 4-gig/system board RAM, resources are not a
problem. What's up with that?

> 
> And that isn't going to change. Both Compaq and Microsoft have stated that
> they expect to continue using Alpha for this purpose. What they're not going
> to do is to turn the Alpha version into a product and sell it retail,
> because Compaq doesn't think there's any market for the Alpha in the space
> where 64-bit Win2K is expected to sell. Rather, they'll target that market
> with multiprocessor IA-32 systems, and with Merced when it comes out, both
> running Win2K.
> 
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/990829-000001.html
> 
> >Windows 2000 will never run on anything not x86 unless Microsoft ports
> >it and how many ways can we say 'fat chance?'
> 
> It depends on what you define as "x86". Intel doesn't consider Merced to be
> "x86"; the instruction and register architecture are completely different.
> 

Intel will always be stigmatized by its own success with X86 processors.
Apparently, Intel resale value isn't all that great -- the Chinese paid
only $30K for the "most powerful" computer system Intel makes ;-)

[whack]

> ...or we could just use portable Java for everything, right? <G>

Now you're talking!

> 
> --------
> Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
> Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

dp

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From: ewill@lexi.athghost7038suus.net                   07-Sep-99 15:04:25
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 18:14:23
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: ewill@lexi.athghost7038suus.net (The Ghost In The Machine)

Too many advocacies!  Trimming followups. :-)

In comp.os.linux.advocacy, I-TEC <dshailes@btinternet.com>
 wrote on Mon, 6 Sep 1999 19:48:03 +0100
<7r12eo$pia$1@uranium.btinternet.com>:
>you find IE5 works? open more then 10 windows? - it crashes

There is a software licensing limitation of opening more than
10 sockets on NT Workstation.  :-)  This may explain this one.

[.sigsnip]

-- 
ewill@aimnet.com -- when all else fails, read the EULA...

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From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               07-Sep-99 08:13:01
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 18:14:23
Subj: Re: Why NT is not like OS/2

From: Steven C. Den Beste <sdenbes1@san.rr.com>

On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 19:31:56 GMT, Joseph Coughlan recycled some holes into
the following pattern:

>
>On 9-6-99, 9:08:19 PM, Steven C. Den Beste <sdenbes1@san.rr.com> wrote 
>regarding Why NT is not like OS/2:
>
>
>> On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 12:18:11 -0400, Joseph recycled some holes into the
>> following pattern:
>
>
>> Success and failure is a single quantity for a product. Either a product is
>> successful or it isn't.
>
>No Steven.  NT is a single product targeted at many markets.  Success 
>in one niche does not mean one can claim success in all markets. 

That's not how it works.

A business operates by investing capital in the development of goods and the
ability to reproduce them. (I'll ignore service industries, since that's not
the kind of company we're discussing.) 

They do this in the expectation that those goods will have commercial value
when placed on the marketplace, and thus will sell. Each copy of the product
has a fixed cost of reproduction, distribution and installation at the
customer's site; this is known as "cost of sales" because it scales linearly
with the number of items sold. So, for example, advertising is considered
part of "cost of sales" because advertising expense rises if the product has
a long lifetime.

The difference between the sales price on an item and the cost of sales is
called "gross profit". For a given product, from this it is necessary to pay
back the NRE (non-recurring engineering expense) and other non-recurring
costs (so known because they don't scale with the number of items sold) and
anything left over is "net profit".

If, over the life of the product, in all the markets it is sold into, its
total sales results in a positive net profit, then it is a successful
product. If it results in a negative net profit, then it is an unsuccessful
product.

The point, and the ONLY point which matters, is whether the capital of the
firm increases or decreases as a result of having made the decision to
develop and sell that product.

If the product has a positive net profit in the long run, then the
corporation will end up with more cash than it had to begin with for having
developed that product. That's a good one; do more like it. If, on the other
hand, the corporation ends up with less cash on hand after the chips are all
counted, then it was a bad one.

If the corporation keeps making bad decisions and creating products which
consume more capital than they produce, then eventually the corporation will
run out of capital and will go out of business.

NT will be a good one. It's necessary to talk about this in future tense
because NT's lifespan isn't done yet, so the chips haven't yet been counted.
They continue to invest in it, and it continues to sell.

Success is a single scalar quantity, and the evaluation of success is the
extent to which the product generates positive net profit over its lifetime.
It doesn't matter what market or markets it is sold to; it doesn't matter
whether they are narrow or wide; it doesn't even matter if it's successful
in the markets it was intended to be successful in. All that matters is that
it generate positive net profit. That makes it successful.

THAT is how the business community evaluates success and failure of a
product.

>> NT will do that. It may already have done so. But it's questionable, to say
>> the very least, whether OS/2 has. And if it hasn't done so by now it never
>> will, because IBM has given up on it. It's in maintenance mode now.
>
>Always the future tense.  It is 1999, 7 years after NT shipped.  Still 
>we see future tense.  OS/2 is in maintenance mode on the desktop but 
>not on the server. OS/2 is adopted to the new times.  MS will will 
>adopt W2K or WinCE but they will not be able to push their fat client 
>OS on the desktop.  That era is ending.

It's necessary to talk about NT's profitability in the future tense because
NT's book isn't completed yet. It's still selling in quantity and there's
every reason to believe it will continue to sell in quantity for quite some
time. They also continue to invest heavily in new development. You
ultimately can't evaluate the extent to which a product is successful until
it tapers down and reaches the end of its life.

And NT hasn't reached the end of its life.

>> >The more interesting question is how long can MS maintain a multi-billion
dollar investment
>> >strategy for NT on IA when the competition gets development by a community 
for ported to
>> >multiple CPUs which are more powerful than IA?
>
>> I'm having a hard time understanding just what you thought that sentence
>> meant. I can usually winkle out a meaning from your ungrammatical
>> constructions, but this one is too much for me. Care to restate it so that
I
>> can respond to what you thought you meant?
>
>Sure. 
>The more interesting question is how long can MS maintain a 
>multi-billion dollar investment strategy for NT on IA when the 
>competition has its development done by a community.  LINUX is 
>available and ported to multiple CPUs which are more powerful than IA.

There are distinct advantages to the pay-for-work model by comparison to the
work-for-free model. Most particularly, if your engineers are paid, then
they work on what you tell them to work on; if your engineers are
volunteers, then they work on what they want to work on, which may not
necessarily be what you need for them to be working on.

In answer to your question, MS can maintain a multi-billion dollar
investment strategy as long as sales projections of the product justify an
investment of that magnitude.

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
              -- Calvin

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From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               07-Sep-99 08:28:07
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 18:14:23
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: Steven C. Den Beste <sdenbes1@san.rr.com>

On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 20:27:23 -0400, David T. Johnson recycled some holes
into the following pattern:

>Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
>
>> There's a long distance between saying that Merced will run IA-32 code and
>> saying that a computer based on Merced will run an operating system
designed
>> for a PCI-based IA-32.
>> 
>> It is virtually certain that the bus controller chips will be different,
for
>> instance. It is very likely that the BIOS will get redesigned again; this
>> time they ought to get PNP really right, one hopes.
>> 
>> With an operating system already properly adapted to the Merced, already
>> running appropriate drivers which abstract all of the hardware, it should
be
>> possible to build an envelope which could run an IA-32 application by using
>> thunking for the app.
>> 
>> But I wouldn't expect to be able to take an unmodified IA-32 operating
>> system, no matter what it was, and expect it to run on a Merced system.
>> There's more to it than just binary application compatibility.
>> 
>> So unless IBM decides to actually create a special version of OS/2
>> specifically for Merced, and they've said they're not going to do that, I
>> do't expect to see Merced running OS/2.
>> 
>
>Current Intel-based machines already use a variety of bus-controller
>chips from ALi, Via, Intel, and now, AMD with their 'Irongate' chipset
>for the Athlon.  Even OS/2 has drivers that work with these different
>southbridge chipsets in one way or another.  Don't see why this would
>not happen with Merced.  
>
>And IBM has *never* said they would not port OS/2 to Merced.  What they
>said in May, 1998 is that they did not have plans to do that at that
>time.  

We don't yet know how significant and deep these changes would be; they
might not be trivial.

Given that IBM isn't even going to be releasing a new client for IA32, it
doesn't look likely to me that they'd do a Merced version. It's clear that
OS/2 is now in maintenance mode and that they've implemented an exit
strategy for it. For years they've been urging their main customers to begin
the transition process off of it to something else. (Remember the "July"
memo?)

>[snip]
>> 
>> I don't understand just what it is you think this expansion of the API
would
>> involve. Why would anything be needed in the 64-bit version which isn't
also
>> needed in the 32-bit version?
>> 
>I am sure there will be new functionality with a 64-bit OS.  Can't point
>to something specifically but historically, this has always occurred.

The issue isn't new functionality; it's *unique* functionality. What would
they add to the 64-bit version which they wouldn't also add to the 32-bit
version? Right off the top I can't think of anything at all.

When Microsoft moved from 16-bits to 32-bits, it was also a complete
redesign of the API. That's not the case this time.

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
              -- Calvin

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From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               07-Sep-99 08:34:00
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 18:14:23
Subj: Re: [OT] Thin clients pick up momentum

From: Steven C. Den Beste <sdenbes1@san.rr.com>

On 07 Sep 1999 01:49:00 PDT, Kim Cheung recycled some holes into the
following pattern:

>Yep.   Red herring indeed.   With all the modern technology in switching,
>zero-data loss clustering, routable DHCP packets, and so on and so on, he had
>to compare dumb terminal technology with Network Computing.    

The Sun/3-50 wasn't a dumb terminal. That was the point. It was a powerful
(for its era) diskless computer.

>I sure am glad he didn't get to design AT&T or MCI's ATM switch backbone.    

Heh. What I was working on was the backbone of the ARPANET. This was while I
was working at BBN.

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
              -- Calvin

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From: davegemini@aol.com                                07-Sep-99 15:40:13
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 18:14:23
Subj: your future windows o.s. ?

From: davegemini@aol.com (David Frank)

its called CONSUMER WINDOWS with a code name of "millenium"

Its been alpha released last month to a few biggie developers, and
a 1st beta release is supposedly imminent for planned 2000 release
sometime/maybe....

It contains a skinned down windows 98 + 2000 + CE pieces
(warpees here will likely call it the frankenstein o.s.)

It will run on a new class of Intel mobo that doesnt support ISA,
which implies it wont run DOS apps,

Dave

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From: no.spam@heyrick.co.uk                             07-Sep-99 00:37:16
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 20:34:10
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: Richard Murray <no.spam@heyrick.co.uk>

In article <4887.918T1102T1682591AmigaPhil@ping.be>, "Philippe Duchenne"
<AmigaPhil@ping.be> wrote:

> But I hope this counter-propaganda will bring curiosity to some unaware 
> people:

Mmmm.


> Hopefully, you are aware as to what to avoid to respect the choices of
> other people.

Ummm... There is a big difference between "designing" a website and
browsing. I design to HTML 3.2 with tables, and either non-tables or
sensible fallback.


> (Hope your Web site won't bear a "Best Viewed with MSIE" logo  ;-)  )

It says "Best viewed with a budgie". :-)


> What's the point here ?  Does that make Bill Gates a holy man ?

Quite the opposite. If he is getting that kind of income, why isn't more
cash invested into making a better product. For ****s sake, if the man is
going to be a *trillionaire* after around twenty years of business, doesn't
it make you wonder why there are so many annoying bugs around.


> "Good because it isn't Microsoft" is an easy short-cut

Not really. We should be good on our own merits, rather than "We're good
because we aren't...".

"Vegetarianism is good because we don't eat meat". It doesn't say much, does
it? 


> And you could even catch the attention of a few more people.

Of just use font-drawn stuff on my website and wonder if people notice?



-- 
   ___         Happy, R.I.P.
  /__/         
 /  \ichard.   http://www.heyrick.co.uk/

Uploaded to news.argonet.co.uk at 16:41 on 07/09/1999

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From: ivaes@hr.nl                                       07-Sep-99 16:22:20
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 20:34:10
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: Illya Vaes <ivaes@hr.nl>

"Steven C. Den Beste" wrote:
>Also, the subject of this thread is wrong. NT (or its lineal descendants)
>is not x86 only. NT4 shipped with support for three other platforms, and
>Microsoft is hot-and-heavy in development of NT for Merced, which is not
>considered part of the x86 family.

...by you, no doubt.
The Merced is just as much (and less) a "lineal" (sic) descendant of the x86
family as Windows 2000 is of the NT family.
But to compare them objectively (x% new, still runs y% of old apps, ...)
wouldn't suit your argument, so we do with a blanket statement.

-- 
Illya Vaes   (ivaes@hr.nl)        "Do...or do not, there is no 'try'" - Yoda
Holland Railconsult BV, Integral Management of Railprocess Systems
Postbus 2855, 3500 GW Utrecht
Tel +31.30.2357382, Fax 2357395           Not speaking for anyone but myself

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: ivaes@hr.nl                                       07-Sep-99 16:04:25
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 20:34:10
Subj: Re: Why NT is not like OS/2

From: Illya Vaes <ivaes@hr.nl>

"David H. McCoy" wrote:
>Has this guy *ever* held a job in the real world?

Has this guy *ever* won an argument without resorting to personal attacks?

-- 
Illya Vaes   (ivaes@hr.nl)        "Do...or do not, there is no 'try'" - Yoda
Holland Railconsult BV, Integral Management of Railprocess Systems
Postbus 2855, 3500 GW Utrecht
Tel +31.30.2357382, Fax 2357395           Not speaking for anyone but myself

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From: ivaes@hr.nl                                       07-Sep-99 16:33:01
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 20:34:10
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: Illya Vaes <ivaes@hr.nl>

"Steven C. Den Beste" wrote:
>the native binary. (This is not like the transition from Win16 to WIN32,
>where the APIs were completely dissimilar.)

That's funny... I missed your objections to the Winvocates claiming at the
time that you could port programs from Windows 3.x to NT 3.x with little more
than a recompile...

Another fine feat by Steven "Consistent" den Beste.

-- 
Illya Vaes   (ivaes@hr.nl)        "Do...or do not, there is no 'try'" - Yoda
Holland Railconsult BV, Integral Management of Railprocess Systems
Postbus 2855, 3500 GW Utrecht
Tel +31.30.2357382, Fax 2357395           Not speaking for anyone but myself

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From: ivaes@hr.nl                                       07-Sep-99 16:04:06
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 20:34:10
Subj: Re: Why NT is not like OS/2

From: Illya Vaes <ivaes@hr.nl>

"Steven C. Den Beste" wrote:
>I'd be hard pressed to think of a company which adopts an operating system
>in the expectation that it would become dominant. Companies adopt operating
>systems because they solve problems. Companies don't pick tools because
>they're trying to ride a train.

Get real!
*Lots* of companies do exactly that.
 
>Success is measured in sales, penetration and support, and longevity. No

So far, OS/2 has reached a 6 yrs higher age than NT and it's not losing the
lead yet.

>product lasts forever, but if a product produces more profit than it cost
>to develop, then that product is a success.
>NT will do that. It may already have done so. But it's questionable, to say
>the very least, whether OS/2 has. And if it hasn't done so by now it never
>will, because IBM has given up on it. It's in maintenance mode now.

Sources for this conjecture?
 
-- 
Illya Vaes   (ivaes@hr.nl)        "Do...or do not, there is no 'try'" - Yoda
Holland Railconsult BV, Integral Management of Railprocess Systems
Postbus 2855, 3500 GW Utrecht
Tel +31.30.2357382, Fax 2357395           Not speaking for anyone but myself

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: hobbyist@nospam.net                               07-Sep-99 10:51:19
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 20:34:10
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hobbyist_=A9?= <hobbyist@nospam.net>

In response to Ant Support (Paul)'s post :

> In article <4gfVN0xhhdmZP1YGX2u04nkvVD5d@4ax.com>, Hobbyist_
> <URL:mailto:hobbyist@nospam.net> wrote:
> > Interesting how experiences vary. A friend of mine is a graphic artist and
> > uses a Mac. It's his machine that I fiddle around to familiarise myself
> > with the interface. During every single browsing session I have done on
his
> > machine using Netscape, I've experienced  at least one hang, necessitating
> > a power down and up. 
> [snippety snip]
> 
> How much memory is fitted in the Mac, and how much is configured for the
> virtual memory system? I've found that Netscape can sometimes lock the
> machine up when it's getting low on memory.
> 
> IME MacOS is more unreliable than RISC OS in low memory situations.

You hit the nail right on the head. He allocates most of his
memory to Photoshop, 64 out of 96MB. He did say that his problems
tend to arise in low memory situations. This is not a good thing
at all.

I'd say that OS/2 is a champion at being stable on low memory
systems with it's GUI running and all. It purrs on 32MB's system
with many processes running. The swapfile is under serious
pressure and the system slows down but it doesn'y hang.


-- 
-=Ali=- 

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From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               07-Sep-99 09:06:26
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 20:34:10
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: Steven C. Den Beste <sdenbes1@san.rr.com>

On Tue, 07 Sep 1999 16:33:02 +0200, Illya Vaes recycled some holes into the
following pattern:

>"Steven C. Den Beste" wrote:
>>the native binary. (This is not like the transition from Win16 to WIN32,
>>where the APIs were completely dissimilar.)
>
>That's funny... I missed your objections to the Winvocates claiming at the
>time that you could port programs from Windows 3.x to NT 3.x with little more
>than a recompile...
>
>Another fine feat by Steven "Consistent" den Beste.

Funny, I wasn't an active participant in this forum at the time. Kind of
hard to object to something I didn't read, don't you think?

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
              -- Calvin

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From: kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com               07-Sep-99 09:33:24
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 20:34:10
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: "Kim Cheung" <kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com>

On Tue, 07 Sep 1999 08:28:15 -0700, Steven C. Den Beste wrote:

>Given that IBM isn't even going to be releasing a new client for IA32, it
>doesn't look likely to me that they'd do a Merced version. It's clear that
>OS/2 is now in maintenance mode and that they've implemented an exit
>strategy for it. For years they've been urging their main customers to begin
>the transition process off of it to something else. (Remember the "July"
>memo?)

Which "IBM" are you talking about?   You are not talking about the IBM that's
extending full support to WarpStock, WarpStock Europe, and WarpExpo West, are
you?   Are you talking about the IBM that are releasing Remote Client
Connection so you can enjoy the benefit of WSOD without a boot-prom?   Or is
it the IBM that DIDn't even bother sending anybody to last year's WarpStock? 
 Or maybe the IBM that made it loud and clear during a Netfinity NT
clustering training session that investment in OS/2 is continuing in their
part of the world?   Or the IBM that tells people they WON'T preload OS/2 on
their Netfinity servers?   Is it the IBM that said they won't invest in a new
OS/2 client?   Or is it the IBM that placed a free copy of DB2 for OS/2 -
developer's edition to try to encourage people develop for DB2 - including
the OS/2 platform?   How'bout the IBM that just released USB removable
storage support?   And the IBM that said there is not going to be USB
support?

Now, really, if you're in "maintainance mode", as you put it, why bother
supporting ANY of the OS/2 conferences, let alone supporting ALL of the OS/2
conferences?




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From: amiga_2001@yahoo.com                              07-Sep-99 16:37:08
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 20:34:10
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: Amiga User <amiga_2001@yahoo.com>

In article <L9BY9tzSDwrQ-pn2-jdyIGepUFQGn@localhost>,
  jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens) wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Sep 1999 19:07:05, Amiga User <amiga_2001@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <1738.917T2063T14074268AmigaPhil@ping.be>,
> >   "Philippe Duchenne" <AmigaPhil@ping.be> wrote:
> > > Hello there Amiga User !
> > > On 27-Aot-99  00:11:20, you wrote about Re: [MS-bashing] New collection 
of
> > > anti-Microsoft banners :
> > >
> > > > In article <830.907T2968T254613AmigaPhil@ping.be>,
> > > >   "Philippe Duchenne" <AmigaPhil@ping.be> wrote:






> > > >>
> > > >> Other collections have been updated too :
> > > >>
> > > >>  - More cream pies for Bill Gates
> > > >>    <URL:http://www.ping.be/amigaphil/pic/SBill.html>
> > >
> > > >   I guess this kind of stuff appeals to people who have an inferiority
> > > > complex.
> > >
> > > You don't have much knowledge in psychology, do you ?
> >
> >   Let's see, you have people who lie in wait in the shadows until
> > Bill Gates shows up.  Then they throw a pie in his face and run away
> > like cowards.  Do these people really make you proud to be a Belgian?
> >
> Lessee.
> You have all these dudes sitting around, waiting for Gates to turn up.
> Then they get on all fours and start brown-nosing like depraved
> doggies.
> That really makes you proud to be an American, does it?

  I don't use Windows myself, but there are certainly Bill Gates fans all
over the world.  I've never heard of the behavior you describe, however.






--
Tim Rue moratorium now in effect.


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

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From: bowenjm@rintintin.colorado.edu                    07-Sep-99 16:41:19
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 20:34:10
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: bowenjm@rintintin.colorado.edu (Jason Bowen)

In article
<xvzjnvpfcnztbgbtneontrqrygnargpbz.fhoyvx0.pminews@news.deltanet.com>,
Kim Cheung <kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com> wrote:
>
>Now, really, if you're in "maintainance mode", as you put it, why bother
>supporting ANY of the OS/2 conferences, let alone supporting ALL of the OS/2
>conferences?

Would IBM just stop support on a product if they were phasing it out?

>
>
>
>


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From: djohnson@isomedia.com                             07-Sep-99 10:07:28
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 20:34:10
Subj: Re: Why NT is different from OS/2

From: "David T. Johnson" <djohnson@isomedia.com>

Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 17:03:09 -0400, David T. Johnson recycled some holes
> into the following pattern:
> 
> >Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
> >>
> >[snip]
> >> I define "commercial success" as "sells enough copies to make a
substantial
> >> profit, enough so as to convince its vendor to continue substantial
> >> development investment in and enhancement of the product".
> >>
> >> There can be many "commercial successes" in the same market, but in this
> >> particular market, OS/2 isn't one of them. IBM continues to
half-heartedly
> >> enhance OS/2, trickling out a fixpack or new feature every once in a
while,
> >> but it is negligible by comparison to what Microsoft is doing with NT.
> >
> >Half-heartedly??  What does that mean?  Trickling out a fixpack??  What
> >does that mean?  They have released 11 fixpacks for v4 since September,
> >1996 at regular intervals.  Is that trickling?  What has Microsoft done
> >in that time for NT4 sufferers??  Five service packs?  Or maybe you're
> >talking about Windows 2000 Beta 3 Release Candidate 2 or whatever it is
> >today?  IBM has already put Warp Server for e-Business out on the
> >street.  It is a shipping product!  And IBM has invented, coded, and
> >published Workspace-on-Demand in that time period.  And released a MAJOR
> >update to Workspace-on-Demand that pumps Win32 clients out to work
> >stations from multiple servers.  A very impressive product, indeed.  All
> >of this is far more than Microsoft has done with NT since September,
> >1996.  But the best is yet to come!
> >
> >>
> >> And as to your article, don't make the mistake of confusing "gross" with
> >> "net". OS/2 also has represented a substantial investment by IBM over the
> >> years. Has it paid all that back?
> >
> >Are you suggesting that IBM is not making a profit on OS/2 when it has
> >gross sales of $100 million during the last five quarters?  If so, that
> >must mean that you think that IBM has spent MORE than $100 million on
> >OS/2 in that time period!!!!   Haven't you always maintained in the past
> >that IBM is NOT spending money on OS/2?  Or maybe that $100 million has
> >been spent on boxes, manuals, and cd-rom disks?  What, then?!
> 
> The gross margin on software, while much higher than on hardware, is nowhere
> near 100%. There are non-trivial expenses associated with selling software.
> There are all those salesmen to pay, or there are the stores and
> distributors. There's advertising, such as it's been. There are support
> costs. You have to reproduce the product. And there's a lot of investment
> backlog.

So you admit that IBM has OS/2 salespeople?  And you admit that there
are stores and distributors for OS/2?  And OS/2 advertising?  And you
think IBM is spending $100 million on these??  

> 
> There was nontrivial investment back in the 80's and early 90's to get to
> this point. That all has to be paid back, with interest.

Actually, this depends on the accounting methods used by IBM for
software products.  But no matter what accounting method they use for
OS/2, $100 million of revenue is better than no $100 million and
certainly exceeds what they are spending on the product.  This means
'positive cash flow.'  If IBM was spending $100 million on OS/2, it
would show up in their financials.  

> 
> >>
> >> I don't think NT has paid back all the investment Microsoft has made in
it,
> >> *yet*, but I think there is no chance that it will in the long run fail
to
> >> do so. It is as near to certain as anything is in the business world that 
NT
> >> will in the long run be extremely profitable.
> >
> >Well, you may be right that Microsoft will make money with NT but I
> >don't personally think so.  NT is starting to smell like other
> >spectacular MS failures.  They are spending huge amounts of money on it
> >and claiming that their future lies with it but look at what is actually
> >happening.  Microsoft originally said Windows 98 was the end of the road
> >and all users should plan on moving to Windows 2000.  They no longer say
> >this.  Windows 2000 is bogged down in development and way behind
> 
> No, what they're saying is that they're going to run one more generation on
> the Windows line and then shut it down. The end is coming, it's just been
> delayed. Changes in plan happen in business; it's a fact of life.

Agreed.  But Microsoft is probably not making money with NT because it
has relatively few preloads (where the easy money is) and they are
spending huge amounts of money to rework it to make it a sustainable
product.  IMO, IBM has been *much* smarter about what they did with OS/2
wherein they have released various new versions and updates with major
tweaks to what is a good product.  Where would Ford Motor Co. be if they
put out a completely new model of every car, every year?  Bankrupt.


> 
> >schedule.  The growth of NT into the enterprise is stagnant.  And why
> 
> Sorry, the growth of NT into the enterprise is not even remotely stagnant.
> http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?990719.ecmicrosoft.htm
> 
This story does reference "business PCs" but otherwise doesn't mention
enterprise customers.  What Microsoft calls 'Business PCs' are not
necessarily enterprise customers.  I don't find this reference to an
unsupported Microsoft sales claim to be credible.  

> July 19, 1999: "The worldwide installed base of Windows NT Workstation more
> than doubled since June 1998, to more than 37 million licensed users. The
> operating system is being pre-installed on almost 30 percent of all business
> PCs shipped, Microsoft said."
> 
> April 1998: According to ZD InfoBeads, between June 1996 and April 1998,
> NT's share of the PC server marketplace rose from 18% to 43%. This was
> mostly at the expense of Netware, which dropped from 67% to 48%. (The
> article doesn't seem to be online anymore. I stored an HTML copy of it.)
> 
> >are major customers moving to WSOD when NT is available?  Linux is
> >making inroads.  I don't see any market segment that NT is the best
> >choice for.  Not the desktop, not the home, not games, not servers, not
> >64-bit, not anything.  Microsoft makes their money from Windows 98
> >preloads and Office 2000 sales.
> 
> NT is the best choice for people who want broad variety of applications, or
> for whom the only applications which can solve their problems are only
> available on NT.
> 
> >>
> >> That's not so obvious for OS/2.
> >>
> >Based on the sales reported in the story I referenced, it looks OS/2 is
> >a nice business for IBM.  Yes, $100 million is chump change for IBM but
> >it's pretty good considering what they spend on it which I would
> >estimate to be maybe half of that at most.
> 
> When you're in the process of closing down a product line, you can often
> nurse it for quite a lot of cash flow. But that doesn't mean that in the
> grand scheme of things, in the long run, that the product line was
> profitable.

IBM is not closing down the OS/2 product line.  If this does ever
happen, they will certainly make an announcement, like Compaq did
recently when they closed down Windows NT development on their Alpha
processor.  Even more to the point, why would IBM put out new products
like Warp Server for e-Business and Workspace-on-Demand if they were
really closing down their product line?  These are sophisticated
products sold to high-capitalization Fortune 500 customers who certainly
expect a longer product lifetime that the few months you seem to want to
give them.  Do you think people at these companies have the word
'STUPID' written above their eyebrows?  No, these are people who have
already broken their pick with the Microsoft product line and they are
eagerly migrating to WSOD just as fast as they can. I have seen this
firsthand.  When IBM released Warp Server for e-Business they committed
to 9 more years of support.  That is about as long as you ever get in
the IT industry.  Many companies are not even in the same business after
9 years have passed.  No, IBM provides excellent support to each and
every customer and they would not release new products if they were
closing down the product line.   

> 
> Unless it made sufficient profit to pay back all those thousands of man
> years which were involved in creating it in the first place, it isn't really
> profitable.

I don't know how much money or man years that IBM and Microsoft have put
into OS/2 over the years in its various versions.  But development is
continuous and ongoing and I am sure that IBM is not giving any more
thought to whatver it was that they spent on OS/2 in 1993 or 1994 or
whenever.  No, they are looking at *1999* and 2000 and maybe 2001.  And
they are doing a very good job with OS/2 and the dollars they have to
work with, IMO.   Keep up the good work IBM! 

> 
> You invest that money up front, as IBM did with OS/2 and Microsoft did with
> NT, in expectation that the product will later do enough sales to not only
> pay for "cost of manufacturing" but also pay back more than the investment
> it cost to create it in the first place, plus interest. I would have to see
> hard numbers from IBM to believe that OS/2 actually did that.
> 
> With the amount of time and effort that went into it, I don't believe you
> can make a profit off of 20 million units at the price it was being sold
> for.

What exactly are you referring to?  The version you purchased in 1994? 
The world and OS/2 have both moved on since that momentous day.


> 
> NT has already sold twice that, and while sales of OS/2 are trickling to a
> stop, NT is just beginning to really take off.

Well, sales are not published by either IBM or Microsoft.  Didn't
Microsoft say at their DOJ trial that they kept their sales figures
handwritten on paper?  No Y2K worries there...  But you opinion
notwithstanding, there is no evidence that OS/2 sales are trickling to a
stop.  This is just wishful thinking on your part.  As for NT sales
taking off, they *may* take off if Windows 2000 turns out to be a good
product.  But I wouldn't hold my breath.  I don't see Windows 2000
dominating the desktop or server markets...


> Next year NT in one form or
> another will sell even more than it did this year. I don't see anything that
> can keep it from selling 100 million units in the long run, and that is
> enough to be profitable -- in the long run.

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From: djohnson@isomedia.com                             07-Sep-99 10:28:08
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 20:34:11
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: "David T. Johnson" <djohnson@isomedia.com>

Gerben Bergman wrote:
> 
> So many stormy nights, so many wrongs or rights, David T. Johnson said:
> 
> | I don't see any market segment that NT is the best choice for. Not the
> | desktop, not the home, not games, not servers, not 64-bit, not anything.
> 
> NT is the best choice for power users who want a stable, decent platform as
> well as wide hardware/software support. I, for instance, don't want to be
> limited in choosing new components and/or applications, I couldn't care less
> about playing games, I want a polished, workable GUI, and I sincerely *hate*
> it when my OS croaks under pressure -- hence my choosing NT.
> 
> Granted, I don't know how large a market segment I represent, but saying
> that NT is best for nothing is simply not true; there *are* people who know
> what they're doing and *yet* willingly choose NT because it fits their needs
> best. No, really.

Well, I respect your opinion.  And based on sales, there are certainly
many people who share it.  The choice of an operating system is based on
a large number of factors.  Certainly we would all be much worse off if
there was only ONE choice for an operating system.  And I would never
suggest that OS/2 is the right choice for every application, every
system, all of the time.  My point is simply that if I were picking a
server OS right now, today, my personal order of preference would be 1)
OS/2 Warp Server for e-Business, 2) Novell Netware, 3) Linux, and 4)
NT4.  If I were picking a desktop OS, my order of preference would be 1)
OS/2, 2) Linux, 3) Windows 98SE, and 4) NT4.

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From: richard@NOSPAMwebtrek.com                         07-Sep-99 17:53:08
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 20:34:11
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: richard@NOSPAMwebtrek.com (Richard R. Klemmer)

On Sun, 5 Sep 1999 07:01:23, sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste)
wrote:

> Remember that he quite his job at InfoWorld to be editorial director at
> NCWorld magazine, and started predicting that the PC was dead and that
> everyone would be using thin clients within a short interval?
> 
> NCWorld magazine is a fading memory, and Petreley is back at InfoWorld. The
> PC continues to sell strongly. The NC revolution never happened.

Just to set the record straight, Petreley continued to write for 
InfoWorld after he resigned as one of the Editors, and he continues to
write for InfoWorld.  He never "came back".  His role at IW is the 
same today as when he left.  I do not know whether his decision to 
resign was related to NC World or not.


-----------------------------
Richard R. Klemmer
richard@webtrek.com
http://www.webtrek.com
-----------------------------

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From: djohnson@isomedia.com                             07-Sep-99 11:18:21
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 20:34:11
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: "David T. Johnson" <djohnson@isomedia.com>

Jason Bowen wrote:
> 
> In article
<xvzjnvpfcnztbgbtneontrqrygnargpbz.fhoyvx0.pminews@news.deltanet.com>,
> Kim Cheung <kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com> wrote:
> >
> >Now, really, if you're in "maintainance mode", as you put it, why bother
> >supporting ANY of the OS/2 conferences, let alone supporting ALL of the
OS/2
> >conferences?
> 
> Would IBM just stop support on a product if they were phasing it out?

They certainly would not release new products such as Warp Server for
e-Business or Workspace on Demand if they were exiting the OS/2
business.  


> 
> >
> >
> >
> >

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From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               07-Sep-99 11:32:10
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 20:34:11
Subj: Re: Why NT is different from OS/2

From: Steven C. Den Beste <sdenbes1@san.rr.com>

On Tue, 07 Sep 1999 10:07:57 -0400, David T. Johnson recycled some holes
into the following pattern:

>Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
>> 
>> On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 17:03:09 -0400, David T. Johnson recycled some holes
>> into the following pattern:
>> 
>> >Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
>> >>
>> >[snip]
>> >> I define "commercial success" as "sells enough copies to make a
substantial
>> >> profit, enough so as to convince its vendor to continue substantial
>> >> development investment in and enhancement of the product".
>> >>
>> >> There can be many "commercial successes" in the same market, but in this
>> >> particular market, OS/2 isn't one of them. IBM continues to
half-heartedly
>> >> enhance OS/2, trickling out a fixpack or new feature every once in a
while,
>> >> but it is negligible by comparison to what Microsoft is doing with NT.
>> >
>> >Half-heartedly??  What does that mean?  Trickling out a fixpack??  What
>> >does that mean?  They have released 11 fixpacks for v4 since September,
>> >1996 at regular intervals.  Is that trickling?  What has Microsoft done
>> >in that time for NT4 sufferers??  Five service packs?  Or maybe you're
>> >talking about Windows 2000 Beta 3 Release Candidate 2 or whatever it is
>> >today?  IBM has already put Warp Server for e-Business out on the
>> >street.  It is a shipping product!  And IBM has invented, coded, and
>> >published Workspace-on-Demand in that time period.  And released a MAJOR
>> >update to Workspace-on-Demand that pumps Win32 clients out to work
>> >stations from multiple servers.  A very impressive product, indeed.  All
>> >of this is far more than Microsoft has done with NT since September,
>> >1996.  But the best is yet to come!
>> >
>> >>
>> >> And as to your article, don't make the mistake of confusing "gross" with
>> >> "net". OS/2 also has represented a substantial investment by IBM over
the
>> >> years. Has it paid all that back?
>> >
>> >Are you suggesting that IBM is not making a profit on OS/2 when it has
>> >gross sales of $100 million during the last five quarters?  If so, that
>> >must mean that you think that IBM has spent MORE than $100 million on
>> >OS/2 in that time period!!!!   Haven't you always maintained in the past
>> >that IBM is NOT spending money on OS/2?  Or maybe that $100 million has
>> >been spent on boxes, manuals, and cd-rom disks?  What, then?!
>> 
>> The gross margin on software, while much higher than on hardware, is
nowhere
>> near 100%. There are non-trivial expenses associated with selling software.
>> There are all those salesmen to pay, or there are the stores and
>> distributors. There's advertising, such as it's been. There are support
>> costs. You have to reproduce the product. And there's a lot of investment
>> backlog.
>
>So you admit that IBM has OS/2 salespeople?  And you admit that there
>are stores and distributors for OS/2?  And OS/2 advertising?  And you
>think IBM is spending $100 million on these??  

I don't see why you characterize this as an "admission". I state it, I don't
admit it.

Of course IBM has salesman for OS/2. They're the ones who answer the phones
when those mid-size and large companies call and order more copies. They're
the ones who occasionally visit those mid-size and large companies. Those
same salesmen also sell other things, but some of the expense of maintaining
them is non-trivial.

I think there probably are still a few stores and distributors, too. You can
still buy OS/2 from Egghead, and Indelible Blue still sells it. You won't
find it at Circuit City or CompUSA anymore, but Fry's might carry it. (A
Fry's store is like nirvana for a technotoy freak; they carry EVERYTHING.)

Profit and loss on a product has to be judged over its whole lifetime. There
was a long interval at the beginning when a lot of money was being spent on
development but when there was nothing yet available to sell. Then there was
a long interval where it was selling but there was still a lot of investment
on developing later versions.

All that investment has to be paid off. The fact that a product has positive
cash flow now doesn't mean that in the grand scheme of things it will be
considered profitable in the long run. It only means that you've cut back
investment on that product to below the level justified by its sales.

By the way, $1 million dollars will support about three sales people for one
year, when you take payroll taxes, support costs, commissions, travel,
expense accounts and other expenses into account. $100 million isn't as much
money as you might think. And like all corporations, IBM pays corporate
taxes on its net profits.

>> 
>> There was nontrivial investment back in the 80's and early 90's to get to
>> this point. That all has to be paid back, with interest.
>
>Actually, this depends on the accounting methods used by IBM for
>software products.  But no matter what accounting method they use for
>OS/2, $100 million of revenue is better than no $100 million and
>certainly exceeds what they are spending on the product.  This means
>'positive cash flow.'  If IBM was spending $100 million on OS/2, it
>would show up in their financials.  

I don't agree with your statement. As an absolute statement, if $100 million
in revenue has a cost of sales of $150 million, then you're out $50 million.

But I don't think that's the case here. I'd just like to point out that
*revenue* has never been the name of the game. *profit* is what it is about.
It's never been the goal to pump up revenue; you can kill yourself that way.
Let's keep our eye on the right ball.

As to investment on OS/2 showing up on their financials, IBM doesn't break
out its investment to that level of detail. OS/2 is lumped in with the rest
of the Software division. (Soon that's going to change somewhat; the
division that OS/2 is in will be broken out, but it still won't be possible
for you and me to differentiate the money that division spends on OS/2 from
the money it spends on other things.)

>> 
>> No, what they're saying is that they're going to run one more generation on
>> the Windows line and then shut it down. The end is coming, it's just been
>> delayed. Changes in plan happen in business; it's a fact of life.
>
>Agreed.  But Microsoft is probably not making money with NT because it
>has relatively few preloads (where the easy money is) and they are
>spending huge amounts of money to rework it to make it a sustainable
>product.  IMO, IBM has been *much* smarter about what they did with OS/2
>wherein they have released various new versions and updates with major
>tweaks to what is a good product.  Where would Ford Motor Co. be if they
>put out a completely new model of every car, every year?  Bankrupt.

According to this statement, NT is now preloaded on almost 30% of all PCs
sold to businesses.

http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?990719.ecmicrosoft.htm

It's not being sold heavily into the home/hobby market because it's an
inappropriate product for that market, which is dominated by Win 95 and Win
98.

And if IBM is so much smarter, why is OS/2 a fading memory while NT is now
coming into its prime?

>> >>
>> >> That's not so obvious for OS/2.
>> >>
>> >Based on the sales reported in the story I referenced, it looks OS/2 is
>> >a nice business for IBM.  Yes, $100 million is chump change for IBM but
>> >it's pretty good considering what they spend on it which I would
>> >estimate to be maybe half of that at most.
>> 
>> When you're in the process of closing down a product line, you can often
>> nurse it for quite a lot of cash flow. But that doesn't mean that in the
>> grand scheme of things, in the long run, that the product line was
>> profitable.
>
>IBM is not closing down the OS/2 product line.  If this does ever
>happen, they will certainly make an announcement, like Compaq did
>recently when they closed down Windows NT development on their Alpha
>processor.  Even more to the point, why would IBM put out new products
>like Warp Server for e-Business and Workspace-on-Demand if they were
>really closing down their product line?  These are sophisticated

It takes a long time between design start and design delivery. A lot can
change during that time. Do you have any reason to believe that any equally
large projects in the OS/2 line are beginning now? I would be very surprised
if they were.

The recent delivery of those products tells us what IBM thought about OS/2
three years ago when those projects were begun. It doesn't tell us anything
about what IBM thinks of OS/2 now.

>products sold to high-capitalization Fortune 500 customers who certainly
>expect a longer product lifetime that the few months you seem to want to
>give them.  Do you think people at these companies have the word

I don't think OS/2 has a few months left. I think it has about three years
left.

>'STUPID' written above their eyebrows?  No, these are people who have
>already broken their pick with the Microsoft product line and they are
>eagerly migrating to WSOD just as fast as they can. I have seen this
>firsthand.  When IBM released Warp Server for e-Business they committed

I'm talking about the desktop version of OS/2. The server product is
different.

>to 9 more years of support.  That is about as long as you ever get in
>the IT industry.  Many companies are not even in the same business after
>9 years have passed.  No, IBM provides excellent support to each and
>every customer and they would not release new products if they were
>closing down the product line.   

They're not going to make a public announcement about it because they don't
care what the public thinks.

IBM is in the anomalous position of being the host at a party who wants to
go home, has to leave last, and doesn't want to be rude to the honored
guests. Being rude to the gatecrashers would probably be OK except that
there's no way to do that without also being rude to the honored guests.

So he looks at his watch, yawns a lot, and tries to use hints to indicate to
everyone that he'd really like them to leave, so he can shut out the lights
and go home.

Once all the honored guests have left spontaneously, he'll just kick all the
remaining gatecrashers out.

The honored guests are mid-sized and large businesses. Y'all are the gate
crashers. IBM's doing its best to get the honored guests to port off of OS/2
and onto something else. That is stated clearly in the "July" memo, which
wasn't intended for public consumption but which got leaked. Considerable
space in that memo was used for discussion of how to convince the honored
guests to stop using OS/2.

>> 
>> Unless it made sufficient profit to pay back all those thousands of man
>> years which were involved in creating it in the first place, it isn't
really
>> profitable.
>
>I don't know how much money or man years that IBM and Microsoft have put
>into OS/2 over the years in its various versions.  But development is
>continuous and ongoing and I am sure that IBM is not giving any more
>thought to whatver it was that they spent on OS/2 in 1993 or 1994 or
>whenever.  No, they are looking at *1999* and 2000 and maybe 2001.  And
>they are doing a very good job with OS/2 and the dollars they have to
>work with, IMO.   Keep up the good work IBM! 

This is the "good money after bad" fallacy, and IBM is not stupid enough to
fall into it. Otherwise they would have finished up the PPC version of OS/2.
That's one of the things Gerstner seems to have changed at IBM.

Sometimes it's necessary to make the hard decision and decide that a project
is just too far gone to save.

In the case of OS/2, one of the problems is the unbelievably negative
reputation it has. At this point, it has a publicity problem which may be
well-nigh insurmountable. Even if the product were shaped up, it probably
still couldn't be saved.

I'm not sure I believe that even Microsoft could successfully market OS/2 at
this point, and they're the best at software marketing that there is in this
business.

I think that the people at IBM know this, which is why on a deep level I
think they've given up on OS/2 in recognizable forms. As long as they can
come up with mutations like WSOD which are sufficiently different from the
traditional OS/2 form to escape the blight, they may be willing to give it a
try. But the version of OS/2 that y'all use is doomed for this reason, if
for no other.

>> 
>> NT has already sold twice that, and while sales of OS/2 are trickling to a
>> stop, NT is just beginning to really take off.
>
>Well, sales are not published by either IBM or Microsoft.  Didn't
>Microsoft say at their DOJ trial that they kept their sales figures
>handwritten on paper?  No Y2K worries there...  But you opinion
>notwithstanding, there is no evidence that OS/2 sales are trickling to a
>stop.  This is just wishful thinking on your part.  As for NT sales
>taking off, they *may* take off if Windows 2000 turns out to be a good
>product.  But I wouldn't hold my breath.  I don't see Windows 2000
>dominating the desktop or server markets...

Microsoft announces their sales figures occasionally for publicity reasons.
The most recent announcement was for the end of fiscal 1999, in a press
release dated July 19, 1999, which stated that cumulative sales of NT had
exceeded 37 million units.

IBM used to announce OS/2 sales figures when OS/2 sales were still brisk;
they'd issue a press release on each million units sold. The last
announcement was at 13 million, and the generally most optimistic number
bandied about here for cumulative OS/2 sales is 19 million. I myself don't
believe that the number is that high, but if it is, 37 million is just about
twice 19 million. And NT sales are continuing to be brisk, while OS/2 sales
continue to be really slow by comparison. OS/2 is being left in the dust.

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
              -- Calvin

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From: titanium@psn.net                                  07-Sep-99 15:13:20
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 20:34:11
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: titanium@psn.net (ZnU)

In article <4gfVN0xhhdmZP1YGX2u04nkvVD5d@4ax.com>,
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hobbyist_=A9?= <hobbyist@nospam.net> wrote:

> In response to ZnU's post :
> 
> > On the Mac the situation is somewhat reversed. IE 4.5 is the only program
> > that can reliably crash the OS on my G3. Netscape has crashed all of two
> > times ever, leaving the OS up both times. And one of those crashes was due
> > to me deleting its preferences folder while it was running <g>.
> 
> Interesting how experiences vary. A friend of mine is a graphic
> artist and uses a Mac. It's his machine that I fiddle around to
> familiarise myself with the interface. During every single
> browsing session I have done on his machine using Netscape, I've
> experienced  at least one hang, necessitating a power down and
> up. I'm amazed at how resilient he is with hangs. I sat and
> watched him create a pattern using Photoshop and using it as a
> layer to enhance an poster. After half an hour at doing this his
> Mac hanged and he had to reboot and START OVER!!! I asked him how
> often that type of thing occurred and he said too often. 
> 
> Intolerable!

That is intolerable.

> I have since then advised him that he will not sell me on the Mac
> based on the Mac OS.

Gobs and gobs of RAM and a recent Mac running Mac OS 8.6 is the way to go
for stability. This machine (a G3/400 w/256MB of RAM) has _never_ crashed
in Photoshop. Other programs that have  been unstable on every other Mac
I've ever owned (like Strata Studio Pro) are also rock solid.

-- 
This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a
means of communication. The device is inherently of no value to us.
        - Western Union internal memo, 1876. 

ZnU <titanium@psn.net>

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From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               07-Sep-99 12:17:03
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 20:34:11
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: Steven C. Den Beste <sdenbes1@san.rr.com>

On Tue, 07 Sep 1999 11:18:42 -0400, David T. Johnson recycled some holes
into the following pattern:

>Jason Bowen wrote:
>> 
>> In article
<xvzjnvpfcnztbgbtneontrqrygnargpbz.fhoyvx0.pminews@news.deltanet.com>,
>> Kim Cheung <kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >Now, really, if you're in "maintainance mode", as you put it, why bother
>> >supporting ANY of the OS/2 conferences, let alone supporting ALL of the
OS/2
>> >conferences?
>> 
>> Would IBM just stop support on a product if they were phasing it out?
>
>They certainly would not release new products such as Warp Server for
>e-Business or Workspace on Demand if they were exiting the OS/2
>business.  

There is a long time delay between when certain decisions are made and when
it becomes apparent to the outside world. This is a fact of life.

You can't judge what IBM's decision is *now* about OS/2 from what products
are coming out *now*. The decisions about those products were made 2-4 years
ago.

No-one outside IBM itself truly *knows* what they really think (certainly
neight you nor I) but from the kinds of indirect leaks and hints we get from
them we can make a pretty good guess.

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
              -- Calvin

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From: cmkrnl@cix.compulink.co.uk                        07-Sep-99 20:36:18
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 20:34:11
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: Greg Hennessy <cmkrnl@cix.compulink.co.uk>

On Mon, 6 Sep 1999 22:28:27 -0500, "Quantum Leaper"
<leaper@bigfoot.com> wrote:

>Hmm...  IE5 doesn't like more than ~30 windows on my PII400,  at that point
>it tells me I out of memory.

Try making the page file at least 2X physical memory. 

>BTW I doesn't crash even if I have ~30 windows open.

IE5 is solid. I stopped using Netscape after nearly 5 years because of
it. 


greg

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From: helmar@argo-navisREMOVEME.com                     07-Sep-99 19:49:16
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 20:34:11
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: helmar@argo-navisREMOVEME.com (Helmar Rudolph)

On Tue, 07 Sep 1999 00:40:53 -0400, titanium@psn.net (ZnU) wrote:

>> BTW I doesn't crash even if I have ~30 windows open.
>
>30 windows? Jeez. I thought I was bad.

In Opera I have routinely 40-60 windows open. Gets a little
tricky then, but works for the mostpart. Talk about efficiency
here. ;)


>And Mozilla is due out before the end of the year. Unlike IE and Netscape
>it'll strictly adhere to standards.

Opera does that today already. And... if you know the test pages
on the Mozilla site, Opera loaded them all - simultaneously. For
a cute banner I once did, check the link from
http://www.argo-navis.com ;)

Helmar




 [ HELMAR RUDOLPH ]
 [--------------------------------------------------------]
 [ http://www.argo-navis.com                              ]
 [ Database, Relationship & Internet Marketing Specialist ]
 [ Corporate Brain Surgeon & Strategic Wealth Distributor ]
 [--------------------------------------------------------]

 

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From: rerbert@wxs.nl                                    07-Sep-99 21:52:16
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 20:34:11
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: Gerben Bergman <rerbert@wxs.nl>

Deciphering a text in Pig-Dethek from David T. Johnson, we find:

| > NT is the best choice for power users who want a stable, decent platform
as
| > well as wide hardware/software support. I, for instance, don't want to be
| > limited in choosing new components and/or applications, I couldn't care
less
| > about playing games, I want a polished, workable GUI, and I sincerely
*hate*
| > it when my OS croaks under pressure -- hence my choosing NT.
| 
| Well, I respect your opinion.  And based on sales, there are certainly many
| people who share it.  The choice of an operating system is based on a large
| number of factors.  Certainly we would all be much worse off if there was
| only ONE choice for an operating system.  And I would never suggest that
| OS/2 is the right choice for every application, every system, all of the
| time.

With you 100%.

| My point is simply that if I were picking a server OS right now, today, my
| personal order of preference would be 1) OS/2 Warp Server for e-Business, 2)
| Novell Netware, 3) Linux, and 4) NT4.

I don't really have an opinion here, as I know too little about server OS's
to base such an opinion on. But if I were to set up a small server myself
one of these days, taking into account my tight budget, I'd probably run it
on Linux. Can't go wrong with that one.

| If I were picking a desktop OS, my order of preference would be 1) OS/2, 2)
| Linux, 3) Windows 98SE, and 4) NT4.

Mine would be:


1) Win NT -- Stable, polished, and widely supported.

2) Linux  -- Stable, fast, improving rapidly, but not (yet) as well-
             supported as the Windows platforms. I also think the X-Window
             environment, with its multitude of window managers, has quite a
             way to go before becoming as consistent and usable as NT's
             Explorer shell (not to mention OS/2's WPS).

3) Win 98 -- A mediocre OS at best, but with a degree of third-party support
             which is unparalleled today.

4) OS/2   -- Based on its technical merits I'd put it right up there with
             NT, vying for the number-one spot, but I've completely lost
             faith in IBM's (or anyone else's) commitment to making it a
             viable alternative to Microsoft's offerings. Destined to die a
             slow death on the desktop and therefore no longer of interest
             to me.

5) BeOS   -- From what I've heard a smashing engineering success, but with
             so preciously little support outside of Be that it's only
             usable in some distinct niches.


Anyone else? (I like lists! <g>)

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From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               07-Sep-99 16:09:06
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 20:34:11
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Hobbyist  wrote:
> 
> I'd say that OS/2 is a champion at being stable on low memory
> systems with it's GUI running and all. It purrs on 32MB's system
> with many processes running. The swapfile is under serious
> pressure and the system slows down but it doesn'y hang.

I gotta agree with this statement.  I pushed Warp 3 well past the limits
once on a 486 system with 8MB of RAM.  It ran out of space to expand the
swapper and popped up a warning notification telling me so.  It asked me
if I wanted to terminate the app that tried to allocate the memory or
"ignore" the situation.  If I picked "ignore," it blocked the app
attempting to allocate memory until more memory was freed up by other
applications.  The process then continued running merrily along with no
problems.  That was pretty classy.  ;-)

- Marty

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From: kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com               07-Sep-99 11:33:05
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 21:12:14
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: "Kim Cheung" <kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com>

On 7 Sep 1999 16:41:39 GMT, Jason Bowen wrote:

>>Now, really, if you're in "maintainance mode", as you put it, why bother
>>supporting ANY of the OS/2 conferences, let alone supporting ALL of the OS/2
>>conferences?
>
>Would IBM just stop support on a product if they were phasing it out?

That - you would have to ask the IBM that wanted to (and annouced, I was
told) kill AS400 3 times!!!

And the IBM that's been trying to kill VM since the early 80's.

Not to mention the IBM that only made 150 million on AIX revenue - as
compared to the 120 million from a "dead" operating system such as OS/2.



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From: djohnson@isomedia.com                             07-Sep-99 13:11:14
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 21:12:14
Subj: (1/2) Re: Why NT is different from OS/2

From: "David T. Johnson" <djohnson@isomedia.com>

Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
> 
> 
> Profit and loss on a product has to be judged over its whole lifetime. There

Profit is not something that is 'judged.'  Please!  It's dollars and
cents.  You seem to think that the OS/2 development occurred at some
fixed time in the past and involved some horrendously large amount of
money.  Now, you want to apply all of that past development cost to the
currently shipping products and make some statement about OS/2 losing
money.  'OS/2' is not one product that was developed in some past year. 
It is a continuous and ongoing process and consists of many products
with widely variable lifetimes. For example, all of the various version
3 products have been officially discontinued by IBM.  The IRS would not
allow IBM to continue to apply past development costs for these products
against revenues from current products, even if there were carry forward
costs to apply.     


> was a long interval at the beginning when a lot of money was being spent on
> development but when there was nothing yet available to sell. Then there was
> a long interval where it was selling but there was still a lot of investment
> on developing later versions.

Are you talking about OS/2?  OS/t has been continuously sold and
developed for approximately 10 years.  Various versions and products
have appeared regularly during that time.

> 
> All that investment has to be paid off. The fact that a product has positive
> cash flow now doesn't mean that in the grand scheme of things it will be
> considered profitable in the long run. It only means that you've cut back
> investment on that product to below the level justified by its sales.
>

What investment?  What product?  There is no generic 'OS/2' product just
like there is no generic 'Windows' product!  You keep harping on some
large monolithic development cost from some past activity that has to be
applied to some product shipping today.  What about MVS?  Maybe we
should apply development costs for it to OS/2 since there is definitely
derivative knowledge.  And what about Microsoft's OS/2 development
costs?  Maybe they should be applied to Windows 2000 since that is its
heritage.  Now Windows 2000 is REALLY losing money, right?

 
> By the way, $1 million dollars will support about three sales people for one
> year, when you take payroll taxes, support costs, commissions, travel,
> expense accounts and other expenses into account. $100 million isn't as much
> money as you might think. And like all corporations, IBM pays corporate
> taxes on its net profits.

Are those inside sales people or outside sales?  And are they full-time
OS/2 or are they for other IBM software products also?  And $1 million a
year for three salespeople would get some pretty high-powered sales
people who took the Concorde to Paris a lot, methinks.

> 
> >>
> >> There was nontrivial investment back in the 80's and early 90's to get to
> >> this point. That all has to be paid back, with interest.

You may think so but the IRS and the SEC take a dim view of this.


> >
> >Actually, this depends on the accounting methods used by IBM for
> >software products.  But no matter what accounting method they use for
> >OS/2, $100 million of revenue is better than no $100 million and
> >certainly exceeds what they are spending on the product.  This means
> >'positive cash flow.'  If IBM was spending $100 million on OS/2, it
> >would show up in their financials.
> 
> I don't agree with your statement. As an absolute statement, if $100 million
> in revenue has a cost of sales of $150 million, then you're out $50 million.

Now, you are saying that IBM is spending $150 million a year on OS/2!!! 
Or maybe you are trying to say that they are applying $100 million of
past development costs for some discontinued OS/2 product to revenues
generated by Warp Server for e-Business, Warp v4, or Workspace on
Demand.  Either way it's wrong.

> 
> But I don't think that's the case here. I'd just like to point out that
> *revenue* has never been the name of the game. *profit* is what it is about.
> It's never been the goal to pump up revenue; you can kill yourself that way.
> Let's keep our eye on the right ball.
> 
> As to investment on OS/2 showing up on their financials, IBM doesn't break
> out its investment to that level of detail. OS/2 is lumped in with the rest
> of the Software division. (Soon that's going to change somewhat; the
> division that OS/2 is in will be broken out, but it still won't be possible
> for you and me to differentiate the money that division spends on OS/2 from
> the money it spends on other things.)
> 
> >>
> >> No, what they're saying is that they're going to run one more generation
on
> >> the Windows line and then shut it down. The end is coming, it's just been
> >> delayed. Changes in plan happen in business; it's a fact of life.
> >
> >Agreed.  But Microsoft is probably not making money with NT because it
> >has relatively few preloads (where the easy money is) and they are
> >spending huge amounts of money to rework it to make it a sustainable
> >product.  IMO, IBM has been *much* smarter about what they did with OS/2
> >wherein they have released various new versions and updates with major
> >tweaks to what is a good product.  Where would Ford Motor Co. be if they
> >put out a completely new model of every car, every year?  Bankrupt.
> 
> According to this statement, NT is now preloaded on almost 30% of all PCs
> sold to businesses.

No.  What the statement actually says is that Microsoft CLAIMS that NT
is preloaded on 30 percent of what Microsoft calls 'Business PCs.'  A
big difference.

> 
> http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?990719.ecmicrosoft.htm
> 
> It's not being sold heavily into the home/hobby market because it's an
> inappropriate product for that market, which is dominated by Win 95 and Win
> 98.
> 
> And if IBM is so much smarter, why is OS/2 a fading memory while NT is now
> coming into its prime?
> 
> >> >>
> >> >> That's not so obvious for OS/2.
> >> >>
> >> >Based on the sales reported in the story I referenced, it looks OS/2 is
> >> >a nice business for IBM.  Yes, $100 million is chump change for IBM but
> >> >it's pretty good considering what they spend on it which I would
> >> >estimate to be maybe half of that at most.
> >>
> >> When you're in the process of closing down a product line, you can often
> >> nurse it for quite a lot of cash flow. But that doesn't mean that in the
> >> grand scheme of things, in the long run, that the product line was
> >> profitable.
> >
> >IBM is not closing down the OS/2 product line.  If this does ever
> >happen, they will certainly make an announcement, like Compaq did
> >recently when they closed down Windows NT development on their Alpha
> >processor.  Even more to the point, why would IBM put out new products
> >like Warp Server for e-Business and Workspace-on-Demand if they were
> >really closing down their product line?  These are sophisticated
> 
> It takes a long time between design start and design delivery. A lot can
> change during that time. Do you have any reason to believe that any equally
> large projects in the OS/2 line are beginning now? I would be very surprised
> if they were.
> 
> The recent delivery of those products tells us what IBM thought about OS/2
> three years ago when those projects were begun. It doesn't tell us anything
> about what IBM thinks of OS/2 now.

Three years???  How about 1 year?  Workspace on Demand has already come
out with a major upgrade since it was introduced.  

> 
> >products sold to high-capitalization Fortune 500 customers who certainly
> >expect a longer product lifetime that the few months you seem to want to
> >give them.  Do you think people at these companies have the word
> 
> I don't think OS/2 has a few months left. I think it has about three years
> left.
> 
> >'STUPID' written above their eyebrows?  No, these are people who have
> >already broken their pick with the Microsoft product line and they are
> >eagerly migrating to WSOD just as fast as they can. I have seen this
> >firsthand.  When IBM released Warp Server for e-Business they committed
> 
> I'm talking about the desktop version of OS/2. The server product is
> different.

You know, OS/2 has moved beyond the client and server paradigm. 
Workspace-on-demand IS the server-managed version of the OS/2 client.   
Have you ever seen Workspace-on-Demand?  Has ANYONE at Microsoft?


> 
> >to 9 more years of support.  That is about as long as you ever get in
> >the IT industry.  Many companies are not even in the same business after
> >9 years have passed.  No, IBM provides excellent support to each and
> >every customer and they would not release new products if they were
> >closing down the product line.
> 
> They're not going to make a public announcement about it because they don't
> care what the public thinks.

Not true.  And even if it were, a public announcement is just as
important to their large customers as it is to the "public."

> 
> IBM is in the anomalous position of being the host at a party who wants to
> go home, has to leave last, and doesn't want to be rude to the honored
> guests. Being rude to the gatecrashers would probably be OK except that
> there's no way to do that without also being rude to the honored guests.
> 
> So he looks at his watch, yawns a lot, and tries to use hints to indicate to
> everyone that he'd really like them to leave, so he can shut out the lights
> and go home.
> 
> Once all the honored guests have left spontaneously, he'll just kick all the
> remaining gatecrashers out.
> 
> The honored guests are mid-sized and large businesses. Y'all are the gate
> crashers. IBM's doing its best to get the honored guests to port off of OS/2
> and onto something else. That is stated clearly in the "July" memo, which
> wasn't intended for public consumption but which got leaked. 

Yeah, IBM is still trying to dump OS/2.  It's an old story that has no
factual basis other than wishful thinking by those who dislike OS/2. 
The "July" memo dates back to July, 1998, and was officially disavowed
by IBM.  At the time, they said it was an unauthorized opinion by one
author that was not approved or intended to be publicly released.  What
do they have to do, publicly execute the author?   Based on the events
that have occurred since July, 1998, the memo was obviously incorrect. 
Why do you keep referencing it as some sort of "fact" that supports the
death of OS/2. 


Considerable
> space in that memo was used for discussion of how to convince the honored
> guests to stop using OS/2.

Whatever the memo said is irrelevant as it was not official.  (That
means that it means no more than a 'strategy document' authored by you
or I.)     

> 
> >>
> >> Unless it made sufficient profit to pay back all those thousands of man
> >> years which were involved in creating it in the first place, it isn't
really
> >> profitable.
> >
> >I don't know how much money or man years that IBM and Microsoft have put
> >into OS/2 over the years in its various versions.  But development is
> >continuous and ongoing and I am sure that IBM is not giving any more
> >thought to whatver it was that they spent on OS/2 in 1993 or 1994 or
> >whenever.  No, they are looking at *1999* and 2000 and maybe 2001.  And
> >they are doing a very good job with OS/2 and the dollars they have to
> >work with, IMO.   Keep up the good work IBM!
> 
> This is the "good money after bad" fallacy, and IBM is not stupid enough to
> fall into it. Otherwise they would have finished up the PPC version of OS/2.
> That's one of the things Gerstner seems to have changed at IBM.
> 
> Sometimes it's necessary to make the hard decision and decide that a project
> is just too far gone to save.
> 
> In the case of OS/2, one of the problems is the unbelievably negative
> reputation it has. At this point, it has a publicity problem which may be
> well-nigh insurmountable. Even if the product were shaped up, it probably
> still couldn't be saved.

Well, it certainly has a bad reputation with you, anyway.  Maybe you had
a bad driver or something back in '94 when you last used it.  

> 
> I'm not sure I believe that even Microsoft could successfully market OS/2 at
> this point, and they're the best at software marketing that there is in this
> business.

You mean they're the best in the business at maintaining a monopoly and
using it to crush competitors.  You can call that 'marketing' but I call
it 'illegal.'

> 
> I think that the people at IBM know this, which is why on a deep level I
> think they've given up on OS/2 in recognizable forms. As long as they can
> come up with mutations like WSOD which are sufficiently different from the
> traditional OS/2 form to escape the blight, they may be willing to give it a
> try. But the version of OS/2 that y'all use is doomed for this reason, if
> for no other.
> 

Doomed...we're all doomed...all hope is lost. <slap>.  Thanks, I needed
that.  Now, you are the first to call WSOD a mutation.  It sounds like
you don't like server-managed clients.  I sure hope that Microsoft
agrees with you... 

> >>
> >> NT has already sold twice that, and while sales of OS/2 are trickling to
a
> >> stop, NT is just beginning to really take off.
> >
> >Well, sales are not published by either IBM or Microsoft.  Didn't
> >Microsoft say at their DOJ trial that they kept their sales figures
> >handwritten on paper?  No Y2K worries there...  But you opinion
> >notwithstanding, there is no evidence that OS/2 sales are trickling to a
> >stop.  This is just wishful thinking on your part.  As for NT sales
> >taking off, they *may* take off if Windows 2000 turns out to be a good
> >product.  But I wouldn't hold my breath.  I don't see Windows 2000
> >dominating the desktop or server markets...
> 
> Microsoft announces their sales figures occasionally for publicity reasons.
> The most recent announcement was for the end of fiscal 1999, in a press
> release dated July 19, 1999, which stated that cumulative sales of NT had
> exceeded 37 million units.
> 
> IBM used to announce OS/2 sales figures when OS/2 sales were still brisk;
> they'd issue a press release on each million units sold. The last
> announcement was at 13 million, and the generally most optimistic number

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: djohnson@isomedia.com                             07-Sep-99 13:11:14
  To: All                                               07-Sep-99 21:12:14
Subj: (2/2) Re: Why NT is different from OS/2

> bandied about here for cumulative OS/2 sales is 19 million. I myself don't
> believe that the number is that high, but if it is, 37 million is just about
> twice 19 million. And NT sales are continuing to be brisk, while OS/2 sales
> continue to be really slow by comparison. OS/2 is being left in the dust.
> 
Well, Microsoft, with their Win32 API has definitely cornered business
with Windows NT.  But can they hang on to it?  After the sale is
complete, people actually have to USE the product to get work done and
that is not so easy.  Let's see where we are in 3 more years.   That's
when you say OS/2 will be officially dead, right??

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: titanium@psn.net                                  07-Sep-99 17:57:17
  To: All                                               08-Sep-99 05:26:21
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: titanium@psn.net (ZnU)

In article <37d56bd7.511887@news.icon.co.za>,
helmar@argo-navisREMOVEME.com wrote:

> On Tue, 07 Sep 1999 00:40:53 -0400, titanium@psn.net (ZnU) wrote:
> 
> >> BTW I doesn't crash even if I have ~30 windows open.
> >
> >30 windows? Jeez. I thought I was bad.
> 
> In Opera I have routinely 40-60 windows open. Gets a little
> tricky then, but works for the mostpart. Talk about efficiency
> here. ;)

I try to keep it under 5. Not because Netscape can't deal with it, but
because I don't like screen clutter. I should try to see how much Netscape
can take one of these days.

> >And Mozilla is due out before the end of the year. Unlike IE and Netscape
> >it'll strictly adhere to standards.
> 
> Opera does that today already. And... if you know the test pages
> on the Mozilla site, Opera loaded them all - simultCONNECT 14400/ARQ
+ 10:49:47  The Black Cat's Shack, 1:109/2
~ 10:49:47    AKA: 1:109/401, 1:109/42, 196:3105/3
~ 10:49:47  SysOp: Joe Keenan
~ 10:49:47  Using: BinkleyTerm 2.59/(UNREGISTERED)
~ 10:49:47  Flags: CM,XA,V32B,V42B,VFC


+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: spyro@neo.rr.com                                  07-Sep-99 21:05:14
  To: All                                               08-Sep-99 05:26:21
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: Ian Molton <spyro@neo.rr.com>

In article <lKjVN+qCDDm3C+ZN2UPc=cxf9d2s@4ax.com>,
   Hobbyist  <hobbyist@nospam.net> wrote:
> This is the beauty of Opera and the way it operates out of a
> single window. Even the 40-60 windows are a bit ridiculous.

Ugh! no thanks.

If RISC OS ever starts doing this (my greatest fear with the new window
manager) I'm out of here.

-- 
-Ian aka Spyro
Acorn Computers, the best in the world
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hawk/
Aspie and proud of it.

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From: titanium@psn.net                                  07-Sep-99 21:06:09
  To: All                                               08-Sep-99 05:26:21
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: titanium@psn.net (ZnU)

In article <lKjVN+qCDDm3C+ZN2UPc=cxf9d2s@4ax.com>,
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hobbyist_=A9?= <hobbyist@nospam.net> wrote:

> In response to ZnU's post :
> 
> > In article <37d56bd7.511887@news.icon.co.za>,
> > helmar@argo-navisREMOVEME.com wrote:
> > 
> > > On Tue, 07 Sep 1999 00:40:53 -0400, titanium@psn.net (ZnU) wrote:
> > > 
> > > >> BTW I doesn't crash even if I have ~30 windows open.
> > > >
> > > >30 windows? Jeez. I thought I was bad.
> > > 
> > > In Opera I have routinely 40-60 windows open. Gets a little
> > > tricky then, but works for the mostpart. Talk about efficiency
> > > here. ;)
> > 
> > I try to keep it under 5. Not because Netscape can't deal with it, but
> > because I don't like screen clutter. I should try to see how much Netscape
> > can take one of these days.
> 
> This is the beauty of Opera and the way it operates out of a
> single window. Even the 40-60 windows are a bit ridiculous.

MDI is evil, and would only make things worse here. Instead of having the
entire screen to arrange things on, I'd only get part of it (or I wouldn't
be able to keep things in the background visible). Sure, I'd be able to
hide all the windows in one click, but in Mac OS I can do that without
them all being contained in a parent window.

-- 
This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a
means of communication. The device is inherently of no value to us.
        - Western Union internal memo, 1876. 

ZnU <titanium@psn.net>

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From: tinman@unc.edu                                    07-Sep-99 20:51:13
  To: All                                               08-Sep-99 05:26:21
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: tinman@unc.edu (tinman)

In article <oDPVN3Srz36xs=GrJLxTlmS1rCcy@4ax.com>,
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hobbyist_=A9?= <hobbyist@nospam.net> wrote:

> In response to Ant Support (Paul)'s post :
> 
> > In article <4gfVN0xhhdmZP1YGX2u04nkvVD5d@4ax.com>, Hobbyist_
> > <URL:mailto:hobbyist@nospam.net> wrote:
> > > Interesting how experiences vary. A friend of mine is a graphic artist
and
> > > uses a Mac. It's his machine that I fiddle around to familiarise myself
> > > with the interface. During every single browsing session I have done
on his
> > > machine using Netscape, I've experienced  at least one hang,
necessitating
> > > a power down and up. 
> > [snippety snip]
> > 
> > How much memory is fitted in the Mac, and how much is configured for the
> > virtual memory system? I've found that Netscape can sometimes lock the
> > machine up when it's getting low on memory.
> > 
> > IME MacOS is more unreliable than RISC OS in low memory situations.
> 
> You hit the nail right on the head. He allocates most of his
> memory to Photoshop, 64 out of 96MB. He did say that his problems
> tend to arise in low memory situations. This is not a good thing
> at all.
> 
> I'd say that OS/2 is a champion at being stable on low memory
> systems with it's GUI running and all. It purrs on 32MB's system
> with many processes running. The swapfile is under serious
> pressure and the system slows down but it doesn'y hang.
> 
> 

That's true enough, on a 32 meg PS/2 it took me a while to learn that if
OS/2 appeared to hang, best to let it alone for as long as 45 minutes,
given enough time it would invariably sort itself out. (;

-- 
______
tinman

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From: mcbrides@erols.com                                07-Sep-99 21:02:09
  To: All                                               08-Sep-99 05:26:21
Subj: MicroSoft and the NSA have backdoor access to windows! hah!

From: mcbrides@erols.com (Jerry McBride)

It would appear that MicroSoft is REALLY getting caught wiht its' pants down
around their collective ankles! Have a read at:
http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?990-93.enbackdoor2.htm

It tells of a security analyst that just happened to find two crypto keys
while
investigating NT 4.0 for "security breaches"! One key belongs to MicroSoft and
the other to the ultra secret, spy agency NSA (National Security Agency)...

MicroSoft claims it's there for testing and controlling export restraints...

YEAH... RIGHT...

Personally, this probably explains all that phone line activity you see on
those NT servers... :')

God! You gotta' love this shit... See if you can push a new NT, W2K or Win9x
purchase on another government agency, bank, or your common paranoid person!

Haha!

--

*******************************************************************************

*            Sometimes, the BEST things in life really ARE free...           
*
*       Get a FREE copy of NetRexx 1.150 for your next java project at:      
*
*                     http://www2.hursley.ibm.com/netrexx                    
*
*******************************************************************************


/----------------------------------------\
| From the desktop of: Jerome D. McBride |
|         mcbrides@erols.com             |
\----------------------------------------/

--

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From: kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com               07-Sep-99 18:59:13
  To: All                                               08-Sep-99 05:26:21
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: "Kim Cheung" <kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com>

On Tue, 7 Sep 1999 15:46:11 -0700, josco wrote:

>But your question is different than what was asked.  He asked why would
>IBM support all conferences on OS/2 if they were in maintenance mode. 

No, that was not the question.   The point is: last year, they didn't make a
presence AT ALL in neither of the two conferences.

The only conclusion you can draw is that there is no one conclusion that can
be drawn regarding IBM's action.   IBM is a very complex enterprise - unlike
M$ which has ONE and ONE product only: consumer grade software.


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From: kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com               07-Sep-99 19:03:11
  To: All                                               08-Sep-99 05:26:21
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: "Kim Cheung" <kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com>

On 7 Sep 1999 21:25:25 GMT, Jason Bowen wrote:

>>They certainly would not release new products such as Warp Server for
>>e-Business or Workspace on Demand if they were exiting the OS/2
>>business.  
>
>Evidence please.  How do you know what IBM would do?

Why?   Because for most people in this newsgroup, talking about IBM, OS/2,
and so forth is a past time.    For others, it means their life saving is
depending on it.    Small companies get wiped out by IBM and M$ as a rounding
error of their well intended action.   So, the only way to survive is to
watch your behind and don't get knocked down by IBM - and the only way to do
that is to get to know how to do business with IBM.

We didn't annouce 4 major channel partner programs this year for nothing.




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From: josco@ibm.net                                     07-Sep-99 19:37:20
  To: All                                               08-Sep-99 05:26:21
Subj: Re: Why NT is different from OS/2

From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net>


Steven C. Den Beste wrote:

> On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 17:03:09 -0400, David T. Johnson recycled some holes
> into the following pattern:
> >schedule.  The growth of NT into the enterprise is stagnant.  And why
>
> Sorry, the growth of NT into the enterprise is not even remotely stagnant.
> http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?990719.ecmicrosoft.htm
>
> July 19, 1999: "The worldwide installed base of Windows NT Workstation more
> than doubled since June 1998, to more than 37 million licensed users. The
> operating system is being pre-installed on almost 30 percent of all business
> PCs shipped, Microsoft said."

WIndows based terminals required the user purchase a NT desktop license.

> April 1998: According to ZD InfoBeads, between June 1996 and April 1998,
> NT's share of the PC server marketplace rose from 18% to 43%. This was
> mostly at the expense of Netware, which dropped from 67% to 48%. (The
> article doesn't seem to be online anymore. I stored an HTML copy of it.)

In the same time frame LINUX's server growth outpaced NT.

> NT has already sold twice that, and while sales of OS/2 are trickling to a
> stop, NT is just beginning to really take offf. Next year NT in one form or
> another will sell even more than it did this year. I don't see anything that
> can keep it from selling 100 million units in the long run, and that is
> enough to be profitable -- in the long run.

How about Windows terminal server non-MS clients?  Or WinCE clients or simply
users
sticking with Win9x?

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From: AmigaPhil@ping.be                                 08-Sep-99 05:35:15
  To: All                                               08-Sep-99 10:38:27
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: "Philippe Duchenne" <AmigaPhil@ping.be>

Hello there Richard Murray !
On 07-Sep-99   01:37:33, you wrote about Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of
anti-Microsoft banners :

>> Hopefully, you are aware as to what to avoid to respect the choices of
>> other people.

> Ummm... There is a big difference between "designing" a website and
> browsing. [...]

Not for everyone.
Beginners usually "learn" how to build a Web site by looking at the
source code of other people's pages.  They then assemble pieces of HTML
to make it look good with their own browser ("It works here.  If it does
not work for you, then your browser is wrong.")

Users of Outlook Express often send uselessly (garbage-) inflated mails
just because they don't know it's a default "feature" of OE to send mails
"layouted" with (misused) HTML, and that they can set it to normal text.

Let's not talk about all those .doc attachments sent without even knowing
if the recipient is using Word as word processor.

... and so on


>> "Good because it isn't Microsoft" is an easy short-cut

> Not really. We should be good on our own merits, rather than "We're good
> because we aren't...".

> "Vegetarianism is good because we don't eat meat". It doesn't say much, does
> it?

Ok, I learn the lesson  :-)


>> And you could even catch the attention of a few more people.

> Of just use font-drawn stuff on my website and wonder if people notice?

Banners are easier to manipulate with just standard HTML and CGI if you
want eg to display them at random or create a banner network.
(<URL:http://www.ping.be/amigaphil/SBill.pl> for a Perl example).

On the other hand, it becomes less easy if you wish to create a banner
dynamically from a given text (but tools exists to do that too).




Philippe Duchenne <URL:http://www.ping.be/amigaphil/>
PGP ID : 9C07F6C1
WindowsError:00B Inadequate disk space.  Need 50 meg minimum.

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From: AmigaPhil@ping.be                                 08-Sep-99 04:43:26
  To: All                                               08-Sep-99 10:38:27
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: "Philippe Duchenne" <AmigaPhil@ping.be>

Hello there Amiga User !
On 06-Sep-99   20:07:05, you wrote about Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of
anti-Microsoft banners :

>   Let's see, you have people who lie in wait in the shadows until
> Bill Gates shows up.  Then they throw a pie in his face and run away
> like cowards.  Do these people really make you proud to be a Belgian?

Let's see, either declaring flame war is one of your hobbies, or you had
some bad time during your last holidays in Belgium.

To reply to your question:
No, I'm not.  I don't think this was supposed to please someone's pride,
and I don't think Noel Godin has any nationalistic claiming when he plot
his custard outrages.

Brave hired guns facing Bill Gates in the eyes and shooting him with a
machine-gun wouldn't have make me laugh, you know.




Philippe Duchenne <URL:http://www.ping.be/amigaphil/>
PGP ID : 9C07F6C1
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be!

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From: ryanharvey@erols.com                              07-Sep-99 23:48:08
  To: All                                               08-Sep-99 10:38:27
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: "Ryan Harvey" <ryanharvey@erols.com>

"If we're not supposed to eat animals, then why are they made of meat?"
Sorry, couldn't pass up the chance to send my favorite quote of all time.


Richard Murray <no.spam@heyrick.co.uk> wrote in message
news:na.e188c1493d.a40040no.spam@heyrick.co.uk...
> In article <4887.918T1102T1682591AmigaPhil@ping.be>, "Philippe Duchenne"
> <AmigaPhil@ping.be> wrote:
>
> > But I hope this counter-propaganda will bring curiosity to some unaware
> > people:
>
> Mmmm.
>
>
> > Hopefully, you are aware as to what to avoid to respect the choices of
> > other people.
>
> Ummm... There is a big difference between "designing" a website and
> browsing. I design to HTML 3.2 with tables, and either non-tables or
> sensible fallback.
>
>
> > (Hope your Web site won't bear a "Best Viewed with MSIE" logo  ;-)  )
>
> It says "Best viewed with a budgie". :-)
>
>
> > What's the point here ?  Does that make Bill Gates a holy man ?
>
> Quite the opposite. If he is getting that kind of income, why isn't more
> cash invested into making a better product. For ****s sake, if the man is
> going to be a *trillionaire* after around twenty years of business,
doesn't
> it make you wonder why there are so many annoying bugs around.
>
>
> > "Good because it isn't Microsoft" is an easy short-cut
>
> Not really. We should be good on our own merits, rather than "We're good
> because we aren't...".
>
> "Vegetarianism is good because we don't eat meat". It doesn't say much,
does
> it?
>
>
> > And you could even catch the attention of a few more people.
>
> Of just use font-drawn stuff on my website and wonder if people notice?
>
>
>
> --
>    ___         Happy, R.I.P.
>   /__/
>  /  \ichard.   http://www.heyrick.co.uk/
>
> Uploaded to news.argonet.co.uk at 16:41 on 07/09/1999
>


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From: bowenjm@rintintin.colorado.edu                    08-Sep-99 03:40:21
  To: All                                               08-Sep-99 10:38:27
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: bowenjm@rintintin.colorado.edu (Jason Bowen)

In article
<xvzjnvpfcnztbgbtneontrqrygnargpbz.fhpp9a1.pminews@news.deltanet.com>,
Kim Cheung <kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com> wrote:
>On 7 Sep 1999 21:25:25 GMT, Jason Bowen wrote:
>
>>>They certainly would not release new products such as Warp Server for
>>>e-Business or Workspace on Demand if they were exiting the OS/2
>>>business.  
>>
>>Evidence please.  How do you know what IBM would do?
>
>Why?   Because for most people in this newsgroup, talking about IBM, OS/2,
>and so forth is a past time.    For others, it means their life saving is
>depending on it.    Small companies get wiped out by IBM and M$ as a rounding
>error of their well intended action.   So, the only way to survive is to
>watch your behind and don't get knocked down by IBM - and the only way to do
>that is to get to know how to do business with IBM.

You still haven't proven that IBM would drop support of OS/2 if it wasn't
phasing it out.

>
>We didn't annouce 4 major channel partner programs this year for nothing.
>
>
>
>


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From: bowenjm@rintintin.colorado.edu                    08-Sep-99 03:42:23
  To: All                                               08-Sep-99 10:38:27
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: bowenjm@rintintin.colorado.edu (Jason Bowen)

In article <Pine.SGI.3.93.990907153611.13053B-100000@sea.monterey.edu>,
josco  <josco@sea.monterey.edu> wrote:
>On 7 Sep 1999, Jason Bowen wrote:
>
>> In article
<xvzjnvpfcnztbgbtneontrqrygnargpbz.fhoyvx0.pminews@news.deltanet.com>,
>> Kim Cheung <kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >Now, really, if you're in "maintainance mode", as you put it, why bother
>> >supporting ANY of the OS/2 conferences, let alone supporting ALL of the
OS/2
>> >conferences?
>> 
>> Would IBM just stop support on a product if they were phasing it out?
>
>Yeah.  Then again they might not.

Do you speak for IBM?

>
>But your question is different than what was asked.  He asked why would
>IBM support all conferences on OS/2 if they were in maintenance mode. 
>
>I'll tell you this -- it is possible they would have conferences on OS/2
>and phase it out -- it is also possible the Earth would open up and
>swallow you whole and then close all in the next 30 minutes. 

So conferences don't prove that IBM isn't phasing out OS/2 then right?

>
>What is possible?  That is one question.
>What is probable?  That is another question.

We aren't interested in possibilities or probabilites, only facts.

>
>Why would past costs for OS/2 development factor into next quarter's
>profits?  They could -- so could the price of hogs on the chicago merc.
>mart. 
>
>There are many questions to ask -- an infinite number of questions.
>Choose your questions wisely.
>

I didn't make claims about OS/2 based on IBM's marketing decisions,
somebody else did.

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From: jdege@jdege.visi.com                              08-Sep-99 03:55:12
  To: All                                               08-Sep-99 10:38:27
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: jdege@jdege.visi.com (Jeffrey C. Dege)

On Tue, 07 Sep 1999 19:08:17 -0500, Hobbyist  <hobbyist@nospam.net> wrote:
>In response to ZnU's post :
>
>> I try to keep it under 5. Not because Netscape can't deal with it, but
>> because I don't like screen clutter. I should try to see how much Netscape
>> can take one of these days.
>
>This is the beauty of Opera and the way it operates out of a
>single window. Even the 40-60 windows are a bit ridiculous.

When I hit a news site like slashdot, I'll open-in-new-window each link
that looks interesting then go through them one at a time.  I can
easily exceed 30 windows, if it is a busy day.

-- 
      IF 2 + 2 .EQ. 5 THEN 5 = 4

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From: josco@ibm.net                                     07-Sep-99 21:48:17
  To: All                                               08-Sep-99 10:38:27
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net>


Jason Bowen wrote:

> In article <Pine.SGI.3.93.990907153611.13053B-100000@sea.monterey.edu>,
> josco  <josco@sea.monterey.edu> wrote:
> >On 7 Sep 1999, Jason Bowen wrote:
> >
> >> In article
<xvzjnvpfcnztbgbtneontrqrygnargpbz.fhoyvx0.pminews@news.deltanet.com>,
> >> Kim Cheung <kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >Now, really, if you're in "maintainance mode", as you put it, why bother
> >> >supporting ANY of the OS/2 conferences, let alone supporting ALL of the
OS/2
> >> >conferences?
> >>
> >> Would IBM just stop support on a product if they were phasing it out?
> >
> >Yeah.  Then again they might not.
>
> Do you speak for IBM?

I don't speak for IBM and I've learned not to speak to Jason Bowen.



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From: dpeterso@halcyon.com                              07-Sep-99 21:43:03
  To: All                                               08-Sep-99 10:38:27
Subj: Re: Why NT is not like OS/2

From: Dennis Peterson <dpeterso@halcyon.com>

"Steven C. Den Beste" wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 19:31:56 GMT, Joseph Coughlan recycled some holes into
> the following pattern:
> 
> >
> >On 9-6-99, 9:08:19 PM, Steven C. Den Beste <sdenbes1@san.rr.com> wrote
> >regarding Why NT is not like OS/2:
> >
> >
> >> On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 12:18:11 -0400, Joseph recycled some holes into the
> >> following pattern:
> >
> >
> >> Success and failure is a single quantity for a product. Either a product
is
> >> successful or it isn't.
> >
> >No Steven.  NT is a single product targeted at many markets.  Success
> >in one niche does not mean one can claim success in all markets.
> 
> That's not how it works.
> 
> A business operates by investing capital in the development of goods and the
> ability to reproduce them. (I'll ignore service industries, since that's not
> the kind of company we're discussing.)
> 
> They do this in the expectation that those goods will have commercial value
> when placed on the marketplace, and thus will sell. Each copy of the product
> has a fixed cost of reproduction, distribution and installation at the
> customer's site; this is known as "cost of sales" because it scales linearly
> with the number of items sold. So, for example, advertising is considered
> part of "cost of sales" because advertising expense rises if the product has
> a long lifetime.

Now I know more clearly why MS decided to give away the browser.

> 
> --------
> Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
> Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste


dp

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From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               07-Sep-99 21:11:19
  To: All                                               08-Sep-99 10:38:27
Subj: Re: Why NT is different from OS/2

From: Steven C. Den Beste <sdenbes1@san.rr.com>

On Tue, 7 Sep 1999 16:00:31 -0700, josco recycled some holes into the
following pattern:

>On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, David T. Johnson wrote:
>
>> Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
>
>> > There was nontrivial investment back in the 80's and early 90's to get to
>> > this point. That all has to be paid back, with interest.
>> 
>> Actually, this depends on the accounting methods used by IBM for
>> software products.  
>
>Boy I sure am puzzled by Steve's comments.

Somehow I'm not surprised. Yet again you demonstrate that you don't
understand how businesses work.

>To whom does IBM have to make interest payments on the OS/2 investments
>made in the 80's and 90's?   

They pay their bond-holders, the banks which have extended them credit
lines, and they pay their stockholders for the capital investment. The last 
payment is called a "dividend" and IBM pays a substantial one.

The following numbers come from IBM's most recent form 10-Q filed with the
SEC, on page 3.
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/51143/0001005477-99-003620.txt

As of the quarter ending June 30, IBM had external short term debt of about
$14.7 billion, long term debt of $14.3 billion, and other long term
liabilities of $12.6 billion. Interest has to be paid on that money. If you
figure an average 6% interest per year, it comes to an interest payment of
just about $2.5 billion per year.

IBM, like most companies, creates new products by borrowing money and
investing it in development. Once the product has been created, it is sold
in quantity to earn money sufficient to repay the loan *with* *interest*
(because otherwise no-one will loan them that money), and to turn a profit
besides.

In addition, IBM pays dividends on its common stock (page 1). In that same
quarter, IBM paid $0.12 per common share in dividends. This doesn't sound
like much until you realize that IBM has about 1.8 billion shares of common
stock outstanding. It's an expense of $216 million in that quarter alone.
(While technically dividends are considered to be after-profit, it's still
money that IBM doesn't retain internally for future use.)

=========

Microsoft is extremely unusual among large corporations in that it doesn't
do this. Microsoft has no bonds and negligible external debt, and pays no
dividends on its stock. All of Microsoft's development is self-financed. As
a result, Microsoft retains a far higher percentage of its gross income for
reinvestment. That's how they accumulated so much cash-on-hand; none of it
was bleeding out in interest payments.

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
              -- Calvin

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From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               07-Sep-99 22:41:12
  To: All                                               08-Sep-99 10:38:27
Subj: Re: Why NT is different from OS/2

From: Steven C. Den Beste <sdenbes1@san.rr.com>

On Tue, 07 Sep 1999 21:11:39 -0700, Steven C. Den Beste recycled some holes
into the following pattern:

>On Tue, 7 Sep 1999 16:00:31 -0700, josco recycled some holes into the
>following pattern:
>
>>On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, David T. Johnson wrote:
>>
>>> Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
>>
>>> > There was nontrivial investment back in the 80's and early 90's to get
to
>>> > this point. That all has to be paid back, with interest.
>>> 
>>> Actually, this depends on the accounting methods used by IBM for
>>> software products.  
>>
>>Boy I sure am puzzled by Steve's comments.
>
>Somehow I'm not surprised. Yet again you demonstrate that you don't
>understand how businesses work.
>
>>To whom does IBM have to make interest payments on the OS/2 investments
>>made in the 80's and 90's?   
>
>They pay their bond-holders, the banks which have extended them credit
>lines, and they pay their stockholders for the capital investment. The last 
>payment is called a "dividend" and IBM pays a substantial one.
>
>The following numbers come from IBM's most recent form 10-Q filed with the
>SEC, on page 3.
>http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/51143/0001005477-99-003620.txt
>
>As of the quarter ending June 30, IBM had external short term debt of about
>$14.7 billion, long term debt of $14.3 billion, and other long term
>liabilities of $12.6 billion. Interest has to be paid on that money. If you
>figure an average 6% interest per year, it comes to an interest payment of
>just about $2.5 billion per year.
>
>IBM, like most companies, creates new products by borrowing money and
>investing it in development. Once the product has been created, it is sold
>in quantity to earn money sufficient to repay the loan *with* *interest*
>(because otherwise no-one will loan them that money), and to turn a profit
>besides.
>
>In addition, IBM pays dividends on its common stock (page 1). In that same
>quarter, IBM paid $0.12 per common share in dividends. This doesn't sound
>like much until you realize that IBM has about 1.8 billion shares of common
>stock outstanding. It's an expense of $216 million in that quarter alone.
>(While technically dividends are considered to be after-profit, it's still
>money that IBM doesn't retain internally for future use.)
>
>=========
>
>Microsoft is extremely unusual among large corporations in that it doesn't
>do this. Microsoft has no bonds and negligible external debt, and pays no
>dividends on its stock. All of Microsoft's development is self-financed. As
>a result, Microsoft retains a far higher percentage of its gross income for
>reinvestment. That's how they accumulated so much cash-on-hand; none of it
>was bleeding out in interest payments.
>

I wanted to add something to this.

The calculation of the cost of interest is included in the project planning
and becomes a factor in whether the project will be approved at the time
that the project is proposed. That's part of why the project plan has to
include an estimate of when engineering will be done and first shipment will
take place, because that's when the investment starts generation revenue to
pay interest and start retiring principal. Until that point, the interest
compounds the principal.

Borrowing $10 million to develop a product expected to sell $30 million,
with an expected engineering cycle of one year, is entirely different and
much better than if it was an engineering cycle of three years. In the
latter case you have two extra years worth of interest to pay, and that
comes off the bottom line.

In some cases the difference between a short ship date and a long ship date
can be the difference between profit and loss respectively.

You *cannot* ignore the cost of borrowed money in your business decisions.
If you do, you won't be in business long.

Generally speaking, in a large corporation, a division for evaluation
purposes treats the money it spends as being borrowed from corporate at an
interest rate comparable to what T-bills yield. It's necessary to show in
the business plan that the division will yield better results on that "loan"
than a similar investment in T-bills would yield. After all, if it won't
yield as much, wouldn't corporate be better off investing that money in
T-bills? (Of course, in some cases there are overriding issues unrelated to
money. Profitability isn't always the only criterion. But it's usually the
most important one.)

In business, interest is a very real and tangible expense.

(Of course, there's no interest to be paid on a grant, and the principal
isn't repaid either. I must say, that must certainly simplify things.)

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
              -- Calvin

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From: hobbyist@nospam.net                               08-Sep-99 04:08:29
  To: All                                               08-Sep-99 14:43:00
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hobbyist_=A9?= <hobbyist@nospam.net>

In response to Ian Molton's post :

> In article <lKjVN+qCDDm3C+ZN2UPc=cxf9d2s@4ax.com>,
>    Hobbyist  <hobbyist@nospam.net> wrote:
> > This is the beauty of Opera and the way it operates out of a
> > single window. Even the 40-60 windows are a bit ridiculous.
> 
> Ugh! no thanks.
> 
> If RISC OS ever starts doing this (my greatest fear with the new window
> manager) I'm out of here.

I can quite easily manage 20 Opera windows, while I'd probably
have to run looking for a multiple desktop simulator if I were to
try that with IE or Netscape. I've seen it done with about a
dozen IE windows and the taskbar was a mess and confusion. Make
sure, it's the only thing that you're doing at the time.

I wouldn't particularly push for this type of thing globally but
specifically for browsing it's a useful principle. It also works
very well for editors and word processors, not to have a new
window open for each document.

-- 
-=Ali=- 

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From: hobbyist@nospam.net                               08-Sep-99 04:16:11
  To: All                                               08-Sep-99 14:43:00
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hobbyist_=A9?= <hobbyist@nospam.net>

In response to ZnU's post :

> In article <lKjVN+qCDDm3C+ZN2UPc=cxf9d2s@4ax.com>,

> > > I try to keep it under 5. Not because Netscape can't deal with it, but
> > > because I don't like screen clutter. I should try to see how much
Netscape
> > > can take one of these days.
> > 
> > This is the beauty of Opera and the way it operates out of a
> > single window. Even the 40-60 windows are a bit ridiculous.
> 
> MDI is evil, and would only make things worse here. Instead of having the
> entire screen to arrange things on, I'd only get part of it (or I wouldn't
> be able to keep things in the background visible). Sure, I'd be able to
> hide all the windows in one click, but in Mac OS I can do that without
> them all being contained in a parent window.

What if you browse in full-screen as I and many others do, then
you're already using all the screen estate. I'm not trying to
convert you but the method does have it's advantages.

With this method, I don't have to spend time arranging things
either because there's no arranging to be done. I can get on with
it. :)

By the way:

Right click the windows taskbar or hit winkey-D and you'll see
that you can minimize all windows in Windows as well. You can
also cascade, tile horizontally or vertically.

Most overestimate the Mac interface. I see no real advantages of
using it.
 
-- 
-=Ali=- 

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From: hobbyist@nospam.net                               08-Sep-99 04:19:16
  To: All                                               08-Sep-99 14:43:00
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hobbyist_=A9?= <hobbyist@nospam.net>

In response to Jeffrey C. Dege's post :

> On Tue, 07 Sep 1999 19:08:17 -0500, Hobbyist  <hobbyist@nospam.net> wrote:
> >In response to ZnU's post :
> >
> >> I try to keep it under 5. Not because Netscape can't deal with it, but
> >> because I don't like screen clutter. I should try to see how much
Netscape
> >> can take one of these days.
> >
> >This is the beauty of Opera and the way it operates out of a
> >single window. Even the 40-60 windows are a bit ridiculous.
> 
> When I hit a news site like slashdot, I'll open-in-new-window each link
> that looks interesting then go through them one at a time.  I can
> easily exceed 30 windows, if it is a busy day.

It can be done very rapidly with Opera as well, since the
keyboard shortcuts are beautifully thought out.

Shift+left mouse click on the URL opens the URL in a new window,
then you hit the '2' key which brings you back to the previous
window, select another link and open it in it's own window, hit
'2' again and so on ......

I love it.

-- 
-=Ali=- 

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From: spyro@neo.rr.com                                  08-Sep-99 05:40:29
  To: All                                               08-Sep-99 14:43:00
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: Ian Molton <spyro@neo.rr.com>

In article <ySbWN9nB5GdjmUp2iLbnRMVLaglc@4ax.com>,
   Hobbyist  <hobbyist@nospam.net> wrote:
> I wouldn't particularly push for this type of thing globally but
> specifically for browsing it's a useful principle. It also works
> very well for editors and word processors, not to have a new
> window open for each document.

Evidently you have ever used RISC OS's method of doing things...

-- 
-Ian aka Spyro
Acorn Computers, the best in the world
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hawk/
Autism is for life, not just for Christmas.

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From: hobbyist@nospam.net                               08-Sep-99 06:57:18
  To: All                                               08-Sep-99 14:43:00
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hobbyist_=A9?= <hobbyist@nospam.net>

In response to Ian Molton's post :

> In article <ySbWN9nB5GdjmUp2iLbnRMVLaglc@4ax.com>,
>    Hobbyist  <hobbyist@nospam.net> wrote:
> > I wouldn't particularly push for this type of thing globally but
> > specifically for browsing it's a useful principle. It also works
> > very well for editors and word processors, not to have a new
> > window open for each document.
> 
> Evidently you have ever used RISC OS's method of doing things...

No. I don't feel bad about having not done so.

If it's not a waste of your time, would you tell me what it's
like?

-- 
-=Ali=- 

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From: pcguido@ibm.net                                   08-Sep-99 13:08:11
  To: All                                               08-Sep-99 14:43:01
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: pcguido@ibm.net

In <05C6FUhLDNUU-pn2-0hMIci7pojhB@localhost>, wsonna@ibm.net (William Sonna)
writes:
|On Sun, 5 Sep 1999 17:32:59, sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste)
|wrote:
|
|| On Sun, 05 Sep 1999 13:01:27 GMT, Gilbert Saint-flour recycled some holes
|| into the following pattern:
||
|| >In <380109af.369797018@news-server>, on 05 Sep 1999 at 00:01,
|| >sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste) said:
|| >
|| >>On Sat, 04 Sep 1999 21:04:06 -0400, Joseph recycled some holes into the
|| >>following pattern:
|| >
|| >>>http://cnn.com/TECH/computing/9909/03/linux.alpha.idg/index.html
|| >
|| >>Petreley's track record on predictions is none too good.
|| >
|| ><big snip>
|| >
|| >You think the glass is half-empty, perhaps it's half-full.  Petreley's
|| >biased towards Linux just like you're biased towards Microsoft and, BTW,
|| >why you waste so much time on an OS/2 advocacy forum is a mystery to me.
|| >
|| >Some of Petreley's predictions turned out wrong (you cited a number of
|| >those), a number of others turned out right (of course, you don't mention
|| >any of them).  His 1996 prediction regarding the fate of NT on Alpha was
|| >indeed right on the money - see http://www.idg.net/go.cgi?id=157884
|| >
|| >Gilbert Saint-flour
|| >
||
|| Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
||
|| The point is that Petreley's attitude towards Microsoft is invariably
|| negative. Since Microsoft is not always perfect (God knows) sometimes he'll
|| be right because of that. But sometimes Microsoft does good things, and
|| sometimes Microsoft succeeds. And then he's wrong. So the fact that he's
|| predicting the downfall of NT at the hands of Linux is best described as
|| "non-news"; there's no information there, his attitude in this is a
foregone
|| conclusion, and his opinion doesn't inform.
||
||
|| Also, the subject of this thread is wrong. NT (or its lineal descendants)
is
|| not x86 only. NT4 shipped with support for three other platforms, and
|| Microsoft is hot-and-heavy in development of NT for Merced, which is not
|| considered part of the x86 family.
||
|| --------
|| Steven C. Den Beste	  sdenbes1@san.rr.com
|| Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste
||
|| "We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
||				 -- Calvin
|
|I would suggest that you take the time to actually read the article.
|Its about why the author thinks Linux on the alpha will not suffer the
|same fate as NT on the alpha.
|
|Does the author's repeated use of the term "herd mentality" to
|describe the choice of the Microsoft brand name by so many offend you?

More likely, it _describes_ him...

Guido

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From: joe.ragosta@dol.net                               08-Sep-99 09:17:24
  To: All                                               08-Sep-99 14:43:01
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)

In article <7r4m9d$f0k$1@winter.news.rcn.net>, "Ryan Harvey"
<ryanharvey@erols.com> wrote:

> "If we're not supposed to eat animals, then why are they made of meat?"
> Sorry, couldn't pass up the chance to send my favorite quote of all time.
> 


What about:

"If God had meant for men to do dishes, He'd have given them dish-pan hands"

-- 
Regards,

Joe Ragosta

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From: pcguido@ibm.net                                   08-Sep-99 13:30:21
  To: All                                               08-Sep-99 14:43:01
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: pcguido@ibm.net

In <37D3D596.FB15011B@isomedia.com>, "David T. Johnson"
<djohnson@isomedia.com> writes:
|Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
||
||
||...But none of that makes any difference. The simple fact is this: OS/2 is a
|| commercial failure. NT is a commercial success. When the game is over,
|| that's the only score that matters. In the last 12 months NT sold as many
|| copies than OS/2 sold in its lifetime.
||
|Sounds like you define 'commercial success' as 'sold the most copies.'
|By that standard, Windows NT trails behind a lot of other stuff such as
|Windows 98, Nintendo 64, and the OS which runs my car.  I think
|'commercial success' should be defined as 'makes money.'  By that
|standard, OS/2 is definitely a success according to the following:
|
|http://www.zdnet.com/sr/stories/news/0,4538,2326830,00.html

Oh yes, the "commercial success" argument again, Let's see...

NT is such a _huge_ success that 3 of its 4 versions
have been cancelled. Four of 5 if you count Nice Try Terminal Sever.

NT is such a _huge_ success that it's being disposed of:
NextTry = Windows2000. Successful, mass market, products do not
surrender an established brand name. Unless, of course, the product
has garnered a less than stellar reputation... seen any new Pinto's
lately, Steven?

NT is such a _huge_ success that the acronym BSOD has moved into
the lexicon of the public at large.

NT is such a _huge_ success that a 'free' OS, created by a grad student
and supported by an army of programming gnats, is outselling it!
(in the sense of outstripping NT Server's install rate, source: IDC)

And just wait, Steven; the best is yet to come!

Guido

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From: pcguido@ibm.net                                   08-Sep-99 13:33:02
  To: All                                               08-Sep-99 14:43:01
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: pcguido@ibm.net

In <37D3E942.4F1F5FA9@ibm.net>, Joseph <josco@ibm.net> writes:
|
|
|Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
|
|| On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 09:16:29 -0400, Joseph recycled some holes into the
|| following pattern:
||
|| >
|| >> And what has any of this got to do with OS/2? If you want to talk about
|| >> this, why don't you post it to one of the Microsoft advocacy groups,
where
|| >> it would be appropriate?
|| >
|| >Sure if you insist -- I can remind you once again.	 NT is now as portable
and scalable
|| >as OS/2.  Both are IA OSs. No more and no less.  Of course OS/2 runs
better on lesser
|| >hardware.
||
|| But none of that makes any difference.
|
|It makes a huge difference if you're a compay that adopted NT because of
expectations NT
|would scale and become dominate.  NT is losing ground and when I point this
fact out you'll
|ask -- what does this have to do with OS/2 -- well NT is very much like
OS/2.	OS/2 and NT
|are niche OSs.  You don't even use a copy of NT at home.  Think about the
implications of
|your own decisions.
|
|| The simple fact is this: OS/2 is a
|| commercial failure. NT is a commercial success. When the game is over,
|| that's the only score that matters. In the last 12 months NT sold as many
|| copies than OS/2 sold in its lifetime.
|
|There is no game.	It is cold hard business  -- A place where RISC NT gets
dumped by IBM,
|Motorola, MIPS and now Compaq.  We saw the same decison for OS/2 PPC (RISC
OS/2)	NT is a
|proven commerical failure on all CPUs but IA and for that CPU NT is not the
dominate OS.
|NT is very much like OS/2 -- a niche OS at the low end of corporate computing 
and limited to
|IA CPUs.  The parallels are uncanny.
|
|The more interesting question is how long can MS maintain a multi-billion
dollar investment
|strategy for NT on IA when the competition gets development by a community
for ported to
|multiple CPUs which are more powerful than IA?
|
|As a server OS, NT has to scale with IA systems which means it is now limited 
by the
|hardware.	This is indeed very bad news.

Not _just_ the hardware, NT _still_ only supports a 2 system
cluster! What a joke, this is an 'enterprise' system?

Guido

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From: pcguido@ibm.net                                   08-Sep-99 13:49:15
  To: All                                               08-Sep-99 14:43:01
Subj: Re: Why NT is not like OS/2

From: pcguido@ibm.net

In <37D51B83.BF02651F@hr.nl>, Illya Vaes <ivaes@hr.nl> writes:
|"David H. McCoy" wrote:
||Has this guy *ever* held a job in the real world?
|
|Has this guy *ever* won an argument without resorting to personal attacks?
|
|Illya Vaes   (ivaes@hr.nl) 	   "Do...or do not, there is no 'try'" - Yoda

Go easy on David, Illya. Remember, he has a very 'special'
perspective on 'the real world'; and, just exactly what
that might mean...

Guido

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From: djohnson@isomedia.com                             08-Sep-99 08:01:13
  To: All                                               08-Sep-99 20:57:22
Subj: Re: Why NT is different from OS/2

From: "David T. Johnson" <djohnson@isomedia.com>

Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
> 
> >
> >In addition, IBM pays dividends on its common stock (page 1). In that same
> >quarter, IBM paid $0.12 per common share in dividends. This doesn't sound
> >like much until you realize that IBM has about 1.8 billion shares of common
> >stock outstanding.

IBM is currently paying a dividend of $0.24 per share per quarter.  You
must have an old document there.

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From: macdonald@cfc.dnd.ca                              08-Sep-99 11:27:20
  To: titanium@psn.net                                  08-Sep-99 20:57:22
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

To: ZnU <titanium@psn.net>
From: Ken Macdonald <macdonald@cfc.dnd.ca>

ZnU wrote:
> In article <37d56bd7.511887@news.icon.co.za>,
> helmar@argo-navisREMOVEME.com wrote:
> > On Tue, 07 Sep 1999 00:40:53 -0400, titanium@psn.net (ZnU) wrote:
> > >And Mozilla is due out before the end of the year. Unlike IE and Netscape
> > >it'll strictly adhere to standards.
> >
> > Opera does that today already. And... if you know the test pages
> > on the Mozilla site, Opera loaded them all - simultaneously. For
> > a cute banner I once did, check the link from
> > http://www.argo-navis.com ;)
> 
> The problem with that is it's not getting much use, so developing pages
> that will only display in Opera doesn't do much good. The Mozilla engine
> will be used in future versions of Communicator, and possibly in the AOL
> browser as well. That'll give it a very sizable chunk of the market.

who is developing pages that _only_ display in Opera? no-one as far as I
can see.
that would be like developing pages that can only be seen by IE.
suicide.

I'd like to see Opera for the Atari, and have suggested that since they
are
developing a Linux version, that they keep one eye on BSD compatibility,
cause with that little extra effort, then can have a browser that will
work on
any Atari for almost no extra (programming) cost. BSD Unix -> MiNT
ken
the TAF guy

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From: OS2Guy@WarpCity.com                               08-Sep-99 09:13:06
  To: All                                               08-Sep-99 20:57:23
Subj: Stardock Releases WindowBlinds v.99 - Shuns OS/2

From: Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com>

Stardock and author Kris Kwilas have flipped off the OS/2
community with their latest release of Window Blinds v.099.
The hype is claiming 'millions of downloads in just a few
months for the most desired software in the world'.

The OS/2 user is to be thunked for funding Stardock's  latest
software product which only runs on a Microsoft operating system.

Tim Martin
The OS/2 Guy
Warp City
http://warpcity.com
"E-ride the wild surf to Warp City!"



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From: kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com               08-Sep-99 09:26:19
  To: All                                               08-Sep-99 20:57:23
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: "Kim Cheung" <kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com>

On 8 Sep 1999 03:40:42 GMT, Jason Bowen wrote:

>>>Evidence please.  How do you know what IBM would do?
>>
>>Why?   Because for most people in this newsgroup, talking about IBM, OS/2,
>>and so forth is a past time.    For others, it means their life saving is
>>depending on it.    Small companies get wiped out by IBM and M$ as a
rounding
>>error of their well intended action.   So, the only way to survive is to
>>watch your behind and don't get knocked down by IBM - and the only way to do
>>that is to get to know how to do business with IBM.
>
>You still haven't proven that IBM would drop support of OS/2 if it wasn't
>phasing it out.

You got your wire crossed.   Me?   Think IBM would drop support of OS/2?   


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From: b.l.nelson@larc.nasa.gov                          08-Sep-99 12:34:11
  To: All                                               08-Sep-99 20:57:23
Subj: Re: Stardock Releases WindowBlinds v.99 - Shuns OS/2

From: Bennie Nelson <b.l.nelson@larc.nasa.gov>

Tim Martin wrote:
> 
> Stardock and author Kris Kwilas have flipped off the OS/2
> community with their latest release of Window Blinds v.099.
> The hype is claiming 'millions of downloads in just a few
> months for the most desired software in the world'.
> 
> The OS/2 user is to be thunked for funding Stardock's  latest
> software product which only runs on a Microsoft operating system.

Since I haven't purchased any SD software, I'll stay at 32 bits.

Oh.  You must have meant "thanked" instead of "thunked."

As an OS/2 user who believes that programming is a form of
free speech, I don't see anything wrong with SD coding and 
releasing Windows software.  IF they have signed contracts
that are violated by those actions, or, IF SD gave its word 
that such activity would never occur or would not occur 
given certain conditions which have not been met, then that 
would be a different story.  

Is there any evidence to support any of these conditions?

> 
> Tim Martin
> The OS/2 Guy
> Warp City
> http://warpcity.com
> "E-ride the wild surf to Warp City!"

Regards,
Bennie Nelson

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From: bowenjm@rintintin.colorado.edu                    08-Sep-99 16:43:05
  To: All                                               08-Sep-99 20:57:23
Subj: Tim Martin pines for attention

From: bowenjm@rintintin.colorado.edu (Jason Bowen)

Why does he post in the very newsgroups that he claims OS/2 users
avoid????  Sources say it is because the massive membership at Warp City
doesn't give Tim enough attention so he finds other ways to fill his
needs.  Other sources say that he is a plant from the Colorado State
Attorney Generals office working in tandem with the FBI trying to
prosecute those responsible for crimes against OS/2.  

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From: rerbert@wxs.nl                                    08-Sep-99 19:07:10
  To: All                                               08-Sep-99 20:57:23
Subj: Re: Stardock Releases WindowBlinds v.99 - Shuns OS/2

From: Gerben Bergman <rerbert@wxs.nl>

On Wed, 08 Sep 1999 09:13:13 -0700, an entity calling itself "Tim Martin"
uttered the following:

| The OS/2 user is to be thanked for funding Stardock's latest software
| product which only runs on a Microsoft operating system.

Tim, you've been told a million times by now that it's the other way around:
Stardock's Windows sales are funding their OS/2 development. When will that
simple truth get through to your brain?

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From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               08-Sep-99 10:08:18
  To: All                                               08-Sep-99 20:57:23
Subj: Re: Why NT is different from OS/2

From: Steven C. Den Beste <sdenbes1@san.rr.com>

On Wed, 08 Sep 1999 08:01:26 -0400, David T. Johnson recycled some holes
into the following pattern:

>Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
>> 
>> >
>> >In addition, IBM pays dividends on its common stock (page 1). In that same
>> >quarter, IBM paid $0.12 per common share in dividends. This doesn't sound
>> >like much until you realize that IBM has about 1.8 billion shares of
common
>> >stock outstanding.
>
>IBM is currently paying a dividend of $0.24 per share per quarter.  You
>must have an old document there.

IBM paid $0.23 dividends cumulatively for the six months ending 6/30/99. In
the quarter ending 6/30/99 it paid $0.12.

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/51143/0001005477-99-003620.txt


||
||                   INTERNATIONAL BUSINESS MACHINES CORPORATION
||                            AND SUBSIDIARY COMPANIES
||                CONSOLIDATED STATEMENT OF EARNINGS - (CONTINUED)
||                                   (UNAUDITED)
||
||                                     Three Months Ended       Six Months
Ended
||                                          June 30,                June 30,
||                                   ---------------------  
---------------------
||                                      1999        1998*       1999        
1998*
||                                      ----        ----        ----        
----
||Earnings per share of common
||  stock - assuming dilution        $    1.28   $    0.75   $    2.05   $   
1.28
||
||Earnings per share of common
||  stock - basic                    $    1.32   $    0.77   $    2.12   $   
1.31
||
||Average number of common
||  shares outstanding: (millions)
||
||  Assuming dilution                  1,870.6     1,928.7     1,876.6    
1,939.0
||
||  Basic                              1,812.1     1,879.2     1,818.0    
1,889.8
||
||Cash dividends per common share    $    0.12   $    0.11   $    0.23   $   
0.21

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
              -- Calvin

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From: bowenjm@rintintin.colorado.edu                    08-Sep-99 17:22:04
  To: All                                               08-Sep-99 20:57:23
Subj: Re: Stardock Releases WindowBlinds v.99 - Shuns OS/2

From: bowenjm@rintintin.colorado.edu (Jason Bowen)

In article <b5fWNwu30dY3+EHD+uDZDDmRSm63@4ax.com>,
Gerben Bergman  <rerbert@wxs.nl> wrote:
>On Wed, 08 Sep 1999 09:13:13 -0700, an entity calling itself "Tim Martin"
>uttered the following:
>
>| The OS/2 user is to be thanked for funding Stardock's latest software
>| product which only runs on a Microsoft operating system.
>
>Tim, you've been told a million times by now that it's the other way around:
>Stardock's Windows sales are funding their OS/2 development. When will that
>simple truth get through to your brain?
>

Tim doesn't know what truth is in his paranoid, schizophrenic, dillusional
fantasy world.  He still hasn't said whether he lied in the newsgroups or
to abuse@colorado.edu.

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From: greeneggsnspam@micron.net                         08-Sep-99 11:19:18
  To: All                                               08-Sep-99 20:57:23
Subj: Boy whiner and his pet vendetta

From: Nathan Herren <greeneggsnspam@micron.net>

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
Timmy, my boy, haven't you heard?
<p>Here's IBM thunking the OS/2 user for the love of Windows...
<br><A
HREF="http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/stories/news/0,4153,1016161,00.html">http://w
ww.zdnet.com/pcweek/stories/news/0,4153,1016161,00.html</A>
<p>And here we see that they're doing it as a free upgrade!
<br><A
HREF="http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?99091.piibm2000.htm">htt
p://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?99091.piibm2000.htm</A>
<p>Oh, but that's not all!&nbsp; Even the lowly Macintosh gets support
from IBM...
<br><A
HREF="http://macweek.zdnet.com/1999/09/05/viavoice.html">http://macweek.zdnet.c
om/1999/09/05/viavoice.html</A>
<p>Your distaste for Stardock is clear, but, what about IBM?&nbsp; Don't
you feel betrayed by them?&nbsp; Or, is it just your personal vendetta
against Brad and Kris showing?&nbsp; Don't answer because your post makes
it intuitively obvious (even to the casual observer).
<p>Why don't you go out and charge OS/2 users for access to a Free(BSD)
web site?&nbsp; Haven't you thunk about that yet?
<p>-Nathan
<p>Tim Martin wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>Stardock and author Kris Kwilas have flipped off
the OS/2
<br>community with their latest release of Window Blinds v.099.
<br>The hype is claiming 'millions of downloads in just a few
<br>months for the most desired software in the world'.
<p>The OS/2 user is to be thunked for funding Stardock's&nbsp; latest
<br>software product which only runs on a Microsoft operating system.
<p>Tim Martin
<br>The OS/2 Guy
<br>Warp City
<br><a href="http://warpcity.com">http://warpcity.com</a>
<br>"E-ride the wild surf to Warp City!"</blockquote>
</html>

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From: djohnson@isomedia.com                             08-Sep-99 10:51:21
  To: All                                               08-Sep-99 20:57:23
Subj: Re: Why NT is different from OS/2

From: "David T. Johnson" <djohnson@isomedia.com>

Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 08 Sep 1999 08:01:26 -0400, David T. Johnson recycled some holes
> into the following pattern:
> 
> >Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >In addition, IBM pays dividends on its common stock (page 1). In that
same
> >> >quarter, IBM paid $0.12 per common share in dividends. This doesn't
sound
> >> >like much until you realize that IBM has about 1.8 billion shares of
common
> >> >stock outstanding.
> >
> >IBM is currently paying a dividend of $0.24 per share per quarter.  You
> >must have an old document there.
> 
> IBM paid $0.23 dividends cumulatively for the six months ending 6/30/99. In
> the quarter ending 6/30/99 it paid $0.12.

Ooops.  Yes, you're right.  IBM paid $0.24 a share before their most
recent 2 for 1 stock split on May 26.  Now they pay $0.12.  Sorry about
that.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: cmkrnl@cix.compulink.co.uk                        08-Sep-99 19:00:27
  To: All                                               08-Sep-99 20:57:23
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: Greg Hennessy <cmkrnl@cix.compulink.co.uk>

On 8 Sep 1999 06:02:51 GMT, darren.winsper@easynet.co.uk (Darren
Winsper) wrote:

>
>You'll soon be back, Mozilla goes beta next month.  Everyone rejoice
>:)

I tried all the releases upto M8, I haven't been overly impressed so
far. 


greg


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From: rerbert@wxs.nl                                    08-Sep-99 20:09:28
  To: All                                               08-Sep-99 20:57:23
Subj: Re: Boy whiner and his pet vendetta

From: Gerben Bergman <rerbert@wxs.nl>

Lean a little closer to the plant, Nathan Herren, and tell me about "Boy
whiner and his pet vendetta"...

[bunch of HTML code snipped]

Could you please instruct Netscape to send Usenet messages in ASCII format
instead of HTML? Not everyone uses an HTML-capable reader to access these
fora.

Thanks in advance.

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From: djohnson@isomedia.com                             08-Sep-99 11:46:01
  To: All                                               08-Sep-99 20:57:23
Subj: Re: Why NT is different from OS/2

From: "David T. Johnson" <djohnson@isomedia.com>

Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 7 Sep 1999 16:00:31 -0700, josco recycled some holes into the
> following pattern:
> 
> >On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, David T. Johnson wrote:
> >
> >> Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
> >
> >> > There was nontrivial investment back in the 80's and early 90's to get
to
> >> > this point. That all has to be paid back, with interest.
> >>
> >> Actually, this depends on the accounting methods used by IBM for
> >> software products.
> >
> >Boy I sure am puzzled by Steve's comments.
> 
> Somehow I'm not surprised. Yet again you demonstrate that you don't
> understand how businesses work.
> 
> >To whom does IBM have to make interest payments on the OS/2 investments
> >made in the 80's and 90's?
> 
> They pay their bond-holders, the banks which have extended them credit
> lines, and they pay their stockholders for the capital investment. The last
> payment is called a "dividend" and IBM pays a substantial one.

IBM does not issue bonds to finance a particular project nor do they
borrow money for a particular project nor do they issue their common
stock for a particular project.  The capitalization of IBM and their
long and short-term indebtedness structure has nothing to do with OS/2. 
Your general point seems to be that IBM has some sort of financial
burden to apply against revenues they are presently getting from sales
of current OS/2-related products.  This is wrong.  Enough said.




> 
> The following numbers come from IBM's most recent form 10-Q filed with the
> SEC, on page 3.
> http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/51143/0001005477-99-003620.txt
> 
> As of the quarter ending June 30, IBM had external short term debt of about
> $14.7 billion, long term debt of $14.3 billion, and other long term
> liabilities of $12.6 billion. Interest has to be paid on that money. If you
> figure an average 6% interest per year, it comes to an interest payment of
> just about $2.5 billion per year.
> 
> IBM, like most companies, creates new products by borrowing money and
> investing it in development. Once the product has been created, it is sold
> in quantity to earn money sufficient to repay the loan *with* *interest*
> (because otherwise no-one will loan them that money), and to turn a profit
> besides.
> 
> In addition, IBM pays dividends on its common stock (page 1). In that same
> quarter, IBM paid $0.12 per common share in dividends. This doesn't sound
> like much until you realize that IBM has about 1.8 billion shares of common
> stock outstanding. It's an expense of $216 million in that quarter alone.
> (While technically dividends are considered to be after-profit, it's still
> money that IBM doesn't retain internally for future use.)
> 
> =========
> 
> Microsoft is extremely unusual among large corporations in that it doesn't
> do this. Microsoft has no bonds and negligible external debt, and pays no
> dividends on its stock. All of Microsoft's development is self-financed. As
> a result, Microsoft retains a far higher percentage of its gross income for
> reinvestment. That's how they accumulated so much cash-on-hand; none of it
> was bleeding out in interest payments.
> 
> --------
> Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
> Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste
> 
> "We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
>               -- Calvin

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From: djohnson@isomedia.com                             08-Sep-99 11:56:27
  To: All                                               08-Sep-99 20:57:23
Subj: Re: Microsoft...

From: "David T. Johnson" <djohnson@isomedia.com>

Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
> > 
> Microsoft is extremely unusual among large corporations in that it doesn't
> do this. Microsoft has no bonds and negligible external debt, and pays no
> dividends on its stock. All of Microsoft's development is self-financed. As
> a result, Microsoft retains a far higher percentage of its gross income for
> reinvestment. That's how they accumulated so much cash-on-hand; none of it
> was bleeding out in interest payments.

Actually, Microsoft has a gross margin on its products of something like
50 percent.  THAT is how they accumulated so much cash-on-hand.  This
type of margin does not exist in the presence of real competition.  IBM,
on the other hand, sells products in dozens of different markets and
competes with hundreds of companies, large and small.  While IBM is very
profitable, they make their profits on much larger gross sales than
Microsoft and with many more products, both hardware and software. 
IBM's margins and capitalization are typical of a highly-successful
company in the competitive high-tech industry.

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From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net                            08-Sep-99 19:31:06
  To: All                                               08-Sep-99 21:38:26
Subj: Re: Stardock Releases WindowBlinds v.99 - Shuns OS/2

From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens)

On Wed, 8 Sep 1999 16:13:13, Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com> wrote:

> Stardock and author Kris Kwilas have flipped off the OS/2
> community with their latest release of Window Blinds v.099.
> The hype is claiming 'millions of downloads in just a few
> months for the most desired software in the world'.
> 
> The OS/2 user is to be thunked for funding Stardock's  latest
> software product which only runs on a Microsoft operating system.
> 

You claimed Window Blinds snoops hard drives, so I figured you would 
be glad it wasn't released for OS/2.

Anyway, given the fact that IBM paid lots of royalties to Micro$oft 
for parts of OS/2 (and is still doing so, a.o. for HPFS386), you could
say that Warp users help funding the Windows2000 development. Now 
*that's* a frightening thought, innit?

Karel Jansens
jansens_at_ibm_dot_net
=======================================================
If we could have our cake _and_ eat it,
people would start whining about seconds.
=======================================================

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From: bbarclay@ca.ibm.com                               08-Sep-99 15:33:17
  To: All                                               08-Sep-99 21:38:26
Subj: Re: Stardock Releases WindowBlinds v.99 - Shuns OS/2

From: Brad BARCLAY <bbarclay@ca.ibm.com>

Tim Martin wrote:
> 
> Stardock and author Kris Kwilas have flipped off the OS/2
> community with their latest release of Window Blinds v.099.
> The hype is claiming 'millions of downloads in just a few
> months for the most desired software in the world'.
> 
> The OS/2 user is to be thunked for funding Stardock's  latest
> software product which only runs on a Microsoft operating system.

	But Tim - Windows users need every piece of help they can get to pretty
up their systems.  By default, they can't do things like folder
background bitmaps like we OS/2 users can out of the box.

	Have pity for the Windows users, Tim :).

Brad BARCLAY

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Posted from the OS/2 WARP v5 desktop of Brad BARCLAY.
E-Mail:  bbarclay@ca.ibm.com		Location:  2G43D@Torolabs

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From: spyro@neo.rr.com                                  08-Sep-99 16:07:10
  To: All                                               08-Sep-99 21:38:26
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: Ian Molton <spyro@neo.rr.com>

In article <XU7WNwaZsKvab0v9BC50YjNODy0b@4ax.com>,
   Hobbyist  <hobbyist@nospam.net> wrote:
> > > I wouldn't particularly push for this type of thing globally but
> > > specifically for browsing it's a useful principle. It also works
> > > very well for editors and word processors, not to have a new
> > > window open for each document.
> > 
> > Evidently you have ever used RISC OS's method of doing things...
> No. I don't feel bad about having not done so.

Fair enough...

> If it's not a waste of your time, would you tell me what it's
> like?

Sure...

All the desktop centres round the Filer (like windows explorer but FAR
nicer to use (and you have to use it to know that))

You have an icon bar at the bottom of the screen, about twice as high as
the windows one, on which hardware appears on the left and side (ie. drive
icons, printers, the ROM filesystem, CDROMfs's and pseudo-filesystems)
On the right hand side, there is a task manager, and a display manager
(RISCOS has always been able to change screenmode dynamically.)

You load applications by navigating through filer windows, and
doubleclicking on the app. one can also "symlink" them on the "desktop"
once loaded, applications typically place a small (36x36 pixel) icon on the
icon bar (although they dont HAVE to) and sit there.

If you click on them, they open a new document window or their main window
if they only have one window (ie. are not multi-document editors).

pressing menu on an iconbar icon for an application gives a standard menu,
with info at the top, quit at the bottom, and anything else in between.
pressing menu on a hardware device icon produces appropriate menus too (eg.
floppy->format->Otherformats->DOS1.44M) (as you can see, menus are
hierarchical and context sensitive.) "menu" is the middle mouse button. We
dont have "menu bars" on windows ad pressin "menu" anywhere in the window
produces a menu.

the right mouse button is used to "modify the actions of the left one eg.
left click on close = close window. right click = close and open parent.

HTH

-- 
-Ian aka Spyro
Acorn Computers, the best in the world
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hawk/
Autism is for life, not just for Christmas.

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From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               08-Sep-99 13:07:11
  To: All                                               09-Sep-99 00:41:23
Subj: Re: Why NT is different from OS/2

From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste)

On Wed, 08 Sep 1999 11:46:03 -0400, David T. Johnson recycled some holes
into the following pattern:

>Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
>> 
>> On Tue, 7 Sep 1999 16:00:31 -0700, josco recycled some holes into the
>> following pattern:
>> 
>> >On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, David T. Johnson wrote:
>> >
>> >> Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
>> >
>> >> > There was nontrivial investment back in the 80's and early 90's to get 
to
>> >> > this point. That all has to be paid back, with interest.
>> >>
>> >> Actually, this depends on the accounting methods used by IBM for
>> >> software products.
>> >
>> >Boy I sure am puzzled by Steve's comments.
>> 
>> Somehow I'm not surprised. Yet again you demonstrate that you don't
>> understand how businesses work.
>> 
>> >To whom does IBM have to make interest payments on the OS/2 investments
>> >made in the 80's and 90's?
>> 
>> They pay their bond-holders, the banks which have extended them credit
>> lines, and they pay their stockholders for the capital investment. The last
>> payment is called a "dividend" and IBM pays a substantial one.
>
>IBM does not issue bonds to finance a particular project nor do they
>borrow money for a particular project nor do they issue their common
>stock for a particular project.  The capitalization of IBM and their
>long and short-term indebtedness structure has nothing to do with OS/2. 
>Your general point seems to be that IBM has some sort of financial
>burden to apply against revenues they are presently getting from sales
>of current OS/2-related products.  This is wrong.  Enough said.

What happens is that corporate borrows money or issues bonds on its good
name but without identifying specific projects, and then transfers money to
specific business units as an investment in that business unit to produce
products. The business unit is expected to return to corporate enough money
to pay back those loans with interest, eventually, plus profit in addition.
If after a long enough time corporate decides that money is flowing into
that business and it's not expected to ever generate commensurate revenue in
return, then that business will be terminated. Equally, if the business unit
has a product which has been consuming investment money from corporate and
which is not expected to generate sufficient revenue to offset that
investment, then eventually they'll cancel or phase down that product.

That is how corporations do their accounting. It's a hierarchichal thing,
not one-to-one. But the effect is the same.

You can't ignore the cost of capital. No matter how you structure it, that
interest has to be paid.

If the business unit repays to corporate the amount of money invested but
without interest, the corporation will go broke.

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
              -- Calvin

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From: djohnson@isomedia.com                             08-Sep-99 13:55:27
  To: All                                               09-Sep-99 03:51:06
Subj: Re: Why NT is different from OS/2

From: "David T. Johnson" <djohnson@isomedia.com>

Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> You can't ignore the cost of capital. No matter how you structure it, that
> interest has to be paid.
> 
> If the business unit repays to corporate the amount of money invested but
> without interest, the corporation will go broke.
> 
Discussing this topic with you is a little like debating the altitude of
"up." 

There is no indication that IBM capitalizes their software products.  I
am not positive but I don't think this is even allowed by current IRS
rules.  Most likely is that they expense costs in the actual years they
occur.  B-u-t...IF they did capitalize each and every OS/2 product
individually, they certainly could not capitalize them for more than 3
years or the product life, whichever comes first.  As I have mentioned
in at least two earlier posts, this length of time excludes all of that
cost to develop "OS/2" that you keep referring to.

I don't understand why you cling to this point with such tenacity.  Even
if EVERYTHING you say is true and IBM has some sort of annual interest
and principal payment costs to make on their "OS/2 Debt" it STILL has NO
EFFECT on OS/2 profitability.  The ONLY costs which matter are the costs
which would go away if IBM terminated the OS/2 product line.  You seem
to have some sort of emotional investment in the idea that IBM is
burdened with huge OS/2 costs that they can never repay and that OS/2 is
some sort of financial burden to them.  I don't know how to break this
news to you but OS/2 is an extremely small part of IBM and their
business.  Every dollar that IBM has EVER spent on OS/2 all totaled
together STILL is an insignificant amount of money to IBM.  In my
opinion, it reflects poorly on Microsoft that their Windows products
have not left OS/2 products behind, given the huge disparity in budgets
and spending between Microsoft and IBM's OS/2 products.  Instead, in my
opinion, OS/2 v4 is STILL better than competing Microsoft products 3
YEARS after it was released.  Amazing!!  

At Microsoft, the Windows products are central to their entire company
and business.  They literally fly the "Windows" flag on the flagpole in
front of their headquarters next to the flag of the United States.  At
IBM, OS/2 has always been a minor part of one small part of the
company.  The closest OS/2 ever came to fame at IBM was in 1995 when
OS/2 v3 was offered at a discount to every IBM shareholder.  IBM has
done a wonderful job to produce the outstanding OS/2 products they have
with the budgets and resources they have had to work with.  These OS/2
products are making a substantial contribution to worldwide economic
growth and productivity.  Good job IBM!!!

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From: OS2Guy@WarpCity.com                               08-Sep-99 14:15:04
  To: All                                               09-Sep-99 03:51:07
Subj: Re: Stardock Releases WindowBlinds v.99 - Shuns OS/2

From: Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com>

Bennie Nelson wrote:

> Tim Martin wrote:
> >
> > Stardock and author Kris Kwilas have flipped off the OS/2
> > community with their latest release of Window Blinds v.099.
> > The hype is claiming 'millions of downloads in just a few
> > months for the most desired software in the world'.
> >
> > The OS/2 user is to be thunked for funding Stardock's  latest
> > software product which only runs on a Microsoft operating system.
>
> Since I haven't purchased any SD software, I'll stay at 32 bits.
>
> Oh.  You must have meant "thanked" instead of "thunked."

No, I meant 'thunked".  That's exactly what the OS/2 user
gets from the self-proclaimed Number One OS/2 ISV - thunked.

> As an OS/2 user who believes that programming is a form of
> free speech, I don't see anything wrong with SD coding and
> releasing Windows software.

The fact that the OS/2 community if funding the Windows
development and getting nothing in return other than lip
service and empty "We support OS/2" rhetoric seems to
have been lost on you.

> IF they have signed contracts
> that are violated by those actions, or, IF SD gave its word
> that such activity would never occur or would not occur
> given certain conditions which have not been met, then that
> would be a different story.
>

Except for the fact that they are using the OS/2 community
to fund that Windows development and giving nothing back
to the OS/2 community in the way of substantial native OS/2
software seems to have been lost on you.

>
> Is there any evidence to support any of these conditions?

Do you see a release of Window Blinds for OS/2?  That's
your evidence Bennie.  What you see is a lack of OS/2
application development all the while Stardock proclaims
to be the number one OS/2 ISV while they hawk their faded
OS/2 software to the OS/2 user and use those profits to
worm their way away from OS/2 and into the world of
Windows.

That fact seems to be lost on you Bennie.  Rather than
dupe the OS/2 community Stardock should simply release
their faded OS/2 software into the open, give it away freely
and allow OS/2 programmers who love and care about OS/2
to enhance, improve and  continue to develop it rather than
allow it to die a slow faded death.  Stardock has no intention
of supporting OS/2 but they don't want you to know that because
they need your OS/2 money to further develop Microsoft software.

> >
> > Tim Martin
> > The OS/2 Guy
> > Warp City
> > http://warpcity.com
> > "E-ride the wild surf to Warp City!"
>
> Regards,
> Bennie Nelson




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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tonyh@tcp.co.uk                                   08-Sep-99 21:36:16
  To: All                                               09-Sep-99 03:51:07
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: tonyh@tcp.co.uk (Tony Houghton)

In <493e285f82spyro@neo.rr.com>, Ian Molton <spyro@neo.rr.com> wrote:

> In article <ySbWN9nB5GdjmUp2iLbnRMVLaglc@4ax.com>,
>    Hobbyist  <hobbyist@nospam.net> wrote:
> > I wouldn't particularly push for this type of thing globally but
> > specifically for browsing it's a useful principle. It also works
> > very well for editors and word processors, not to have a new
> > window open for each document.
> 
> Evidently you have ever used RISC OS's method of doing things...

Yes he has, because RISC OS does it the same way as IE. That is one
window per document.

-- 
TH * http://homepages.tcp.co.uk/~tonyh/
Supporting CUT: http://www.unmetered.org.uk/

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From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               08-Sep-99 19:00:27
  To: All                                               09-Sep-99 05:38:01
Subj: Re: Stardock Releases WindowBlinds v.99 - Shuns OS/2

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Tim Martin uttered the following before being crushed by a giant foot that
came down on him out of the ceiling:
> 
> Bennie Nelson wrote:
> 
> > Tim Martin wrote:
> > >
> > > Stardock and author Kris Kwilas have flipped off the OS/2
> > > community with their latest release of Window Blinds v.099.
> > > The hype is claiming 'millions of downloads in just a few
> > > months for the most desired software in the world'.
> > >
> > > The OS/2 user is to be thunked for funding Stardock's  latest
> > > software product which only runs on a Microsoft operating system.
> >
> > Since I haven't purchased any SD software, I'll stay at 32 bits.
> >
> > Oh.  You must have meant "thanked" instead of "thunked."
> 
> No, I meant 'thunked".  That's exactly what the OS/2 user
> gets from the self-proclaimed Number One OS/2 ISV - thunked.

Illogical.

> > As an OS/2 user who believes that programming is a form of
> > free speech, I don't see anything wrong with SD coding and
> > releasing Windows software.
> 
> The fact that the OS/2 community if funding the Windows
> development

Evidence, please.

> and getting nothing in return

Incorrect.  Stardock is still developing software for OS/2.

> other than lip service and empty "We support OS/2" rhetoric

What alleged rhetoric, Tim?  The only rhetoric heard here is the "Thousands
of Members of Warp City" mantra.

> seems to have been lost on you.

And for good reason too.  Because it is non-existant.
 
> > IF they have signed contracts
> > that are violated by those actions, or, IF SD gave its word
> > that such activity would never occur or would not occur
> > given certain conditions which have not been met, then that
> > would be a different story.
> >
> 
> Except for the fact

What alleged "fact," Tim?

> that they are using the OS/2 community to fund that Windows 
> development and giving nothing back to the OS/2 community 

Prove it, if you think you can.

> in the way of substantial native OS/2 software 

What do you consider a substantial contribution to the OS/2 community?  A
private-access for-profit web site run on a BSD server?

> seems to have been lost on you.

See above.

> >
> > Is there any evidence to support any of these conditions?
> 
> Do you see a release of Window Blinds for OS/2?

Was Stardock contractually obligated to deliver such a thing?  Did Stardock
ever mention such a thing?  The answer to both of these questions is "no."

> That's your evidence Bennie.

Incorrect.  The "evidence" presented is unrelated to the evidence
requested.

> What you see is a lack of OS/2 application development 

And this is solely Stardock's fault?  Illogical.

> all the while Stardock proclaims to be the number one OS/2 ISV 

Who was speaking for Stardock at the time?  Please site the quotation.

> while they hawk their faded OS/2 software 

Illogical.  Software does not "fade."

> to the OS/2 user and use those profits

What alleged profits, Tim?

> to worm their way away from OS/2 and into the world of
> Windows.

Incorrect.

> That fact seems to be lost on you Bennie.

See above.

> Rather than dupe the OS/2 community

This erroneously presupposes that Stardock is duping the OS/2 community.

> Stardock should simply release their faded OS/2 software into 
> the open, give it away freely and allow OS/2 programmers who love 
> and care about OS/2 to enhance, improve and  continue to develop 
> it rather than allow it to die a slow faded death.

So it's better that the paid professionals stop developing their software
so that spare-time amateurs and hobbyists can take over their projects? 
You think this will benefit OS/2 software?  Illogical.  Just goes to show
what a "professional" "webmaster" knows about software production.

> Stardock has no intention of supporting OS/2 

Evidence, please.

> but they don't want you to know that because they need your OS/2 
> money to further develop Microsoft software.

This erroneously presupposes the existence of "OS/2 money."  Whose picture
do they have in the middle of the hundred dollar bill, Tim?  Yours?

- Marty

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From: possum@fred.net                                   08-Sep-99 22:59:26
  To: All                                               09-Sep-99 05:38:01
Subj: Re: Stardock Releases WindowBlinds v.99 - Shuns OS/2

From: possum@fred.net (Mike Trettel)

On Wed, 08 Sep 1999 19:07:21 +0200, Gerben Bergman <rerbert@wxs.nl> wrote:
>On Wed, 08 Sep 1999 09:13:13 -0700, an entity calling itself "Tim Martin"
>uttered the following:
>
>| The OS/2 user is to be thanked for funding Stardock's latest software
>| product which only runs on a Microsoft operating system.
>
>Tim, you've been told a million times by now that it's the other way around:
>Stardock's Windows sales are funding their OS/2 development. When will that
>simple truth get through to your brain?
>

Never.  It would be too....inconvenient.

-- 
===========
Mike Trettel    trettel (Shift 2) fred (dinky little round thing) net

I don't buy from spammers.  No exceptions.  Fix the reply line to mail me.

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From: djohnson@isomedia.com                             08-Sep-99 16:34:10
  To: All                                               09-Sep-99 05:38:02
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: "David T. Johnson" <djohnson@isomedia.com>

Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
> 
> 
> ...Also, the subject of this thread is wrong. NT (or its lineal descendants) 
is
> not x86 only. NT4 shipped with support for three other platforms, and
> Microsoft is hot-and-heavy in development of NT for Merced, which is not
> considered part of the x86 family.

There is no NT for Merced.  There *is* Windows 2000 but this is also
32-bit (or x86) but this is still beta software and is not a shipping
product.  Microsoft is also working on Windows 2000 for Merced but it
will have a major portion of its code as 32-bit, not 64-bit.  The
current NT4 is 32-bit software which would also make it 'x86.'  NT4 used
to be available for the Alpha processor, but, as the original post
mentioned, Compaq has ended development of NT on the Alpha.  Therefore,
NT is x-86 only, (unless you know of another x86 processor that NT runs
on.)

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com               08-Sep-99 17:05:27
  To: All                                               09-Sep-99 05:38:02
Subj: Re: Microsoft...

From: "Kim Cheung" <kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com>

On Wed, 08 Sep 1999 11:56:55 -0400, David T. Johnson wrote:

>Actually, Microsoft has a gross margin on its products of something like
>50 percent.  THAT is how they accumulated so much cash-on-hand.  This

And that's about to end.   Sun's move is unquestionably an aim at the heart. 
 All those poor soul that deploy 15,000 copies of NT and upgrade to
Office2000 - and when W2K comes around, they will all have to upgrade (again
for the nth time - for no gain in productivity) all of their software and
hardware.

Only that this time - this is an alternative: a free alternative.    It's
funny how the tide turns on M$.    

Sun's move couldn't have come at a better time.   Now, if only IBM follows
suit porting the WPS over to Linux (!!!!!)    Man,  you will see investors
dumping M$ stock in a hurry!


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From: bowenjm@rintintin.colorado.edu                    09-Sep-99 00:07:24
  To: All                                               09-Sep-99 05:38:02
Subj: Re: Stardock Releases WindowBlinds v.99 - Shuns OS/2

From: bowenjm@rintintin.colorado.edu (Jason Bowen)

Do you realize what an idiot you are Tim.  OS/2 loses Stardock money, they
stay in the market because of their love, for lack of a better word, of
OS/2.  So Tim how did you get to be such a liar????  I know you read me,
you don't have the will not to.  You are crazy loon.

In article <37D6D1DB.7C1316@WarpCity.com>, Tim Martin
<OS2Guy@WarpCity.com> wrote:
>Bennie Nelson wrote:
>
>> Tim Martin wrote:
>> >
>> > Stardock and author Kris Kwilas have flipped off the OS/2
>> > community with their latest release of Window Blinds v.099.
>> > The hype is claiming 'millions of downloads in just a few
>> > months for the most desired software in the world'.
>> >
>> > The OS/2 user is to be thunked for funding Stardock's  latest
>> > software product which only runs on a Microsoft operating system.
>>
>> Since I haven't purchased any SD software, I'll stay at 32 bits.
>>
>> Oh.  You must have meant "thanked" instead of "thunked."
>
>No, I meant 'thunked".  That's exactly what the OS/2 user
>gets from the self-proclaimed Number One OS/2 ISV - thunked.
>
>> As an OS/2 user who believes that programming is a form of
>> free speech, I don't see anything wrong with SD coding and
>> releasing Windows software.
>
>The fact that the OS/2 community if funding the Windows
>development and getting nothing in return other than lip
>service and empty "We support OS/2" rhetoric seems to
>have been lost on you.
>
>> IF they have signed contracts
>> that are violated by those actions, or, IF SD gave its word
>> that such activity would never occur or would not occur
>> given certain conditions which have not been met, then that
>> would be a different story.
>>
>
>Except for the fact that they are using the OS/2 community
>to fund that Windows development and giving nothing back
>to the OS/2 community in the way of substantial native OS/2
>software seems to have been lost on you.
>
>>
>> Is there any evidence to support any of these conditions?
>
>Do you see a release of Window Blinds for OS/2?  That's
>your evidence Bennie.  What you see is a lack of OS/2
>application development all the while Stardock proclaims
>to be the number one OS/2 ISV while they hawk their faded
>OS/2 software to the OS/2 user and use those profits to
>worm their way away from OS/2 and into the world of
>Windows.
>
>That fact seems to be lost on you Bennie.  Rather than
>dupe the OS/2 community Stardock should simply release
>their faded OS/2 software into the open, give it away freely
>and allow OS/2 programmers who love and care about OS/2
>to enhance, improve and  continue to develop it rather than
>allow it to die a slow faded death.  Stardock has no intention
>of supporting OS/2 but they don't want you to know that because
>they need your OS/2 money to further develop Microsoft software.
>
>> >
>> > Tim Martin
>> > The OS/2 Guy
>> > Warp City
>> > http://warpcity.com
>> > "E-ride the wild surf to Warp City!"
>>
>> Regards,
>> Bennie Nelson
>
>
>
>


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From: spyro@neo.rr.com                                  08-Sep-99 20:26:19
  To: All                                               09-Sep-99 05:38:02
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: Ian Molton <spyro@neo.rr.com>

In article <slrn7td822.qe.tonyh@tonyh.tcp.co.uk>,
   Tony Houghton <tonyh@tcp.co.uk> wrote:
> > Evidently you have ever used RISC OS's method of doing things...

> Yes he has, because RISC OS does it the same way as IE. That is one
> window per document.

Yes, but RISC OS has much much MUCH better ways of managing the windows.

-- 
-Ian aka Spyro
Acorn Computers, the best in the world
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hawk/
Autism is for life, not just for Christmas.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tonyh@tcp.co.uk                                   09-Sep-99 00:36:20
  To: All                                               09-Sep-99 05:38:02
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: tonyh@tcp.co.uk (Tony Houghton)

In <493e79752bspyro@neo.rr.com>, Ian Molton <spyro@neo.rr.com> wrote:

> In article <slrn7td822.qe.tonyh@tonyh.tcp.co.uk>,
>    Tony Houghton <tonyh@tcp.co.uk> wrote:
> > > Evidently you have ever used RISC OS's method of doing things...
> 
> > Yes he has, because RISC OS does it the same way as IE. That is one
> > window per document.
> 
> Yes, but RISC OS has much much MUCH better ways of managing the windows.

The only things that are MUCH better about RISC OS are being able to
push windows to the back, and no auto-fronting. Everything else is just
trivial niceties. And it doesn't even provide you with a way of listing
the windows so you can jump straight to the one you want without having
to hunt for it (unless you get some 3rd party add-on). RISC OS really
isn't special in terms of window management.

-- 
TH * http://homepages.tcp.co.uk/~tonyh/
Supporting CUT: http://www.unmetered.org.uk/

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From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               08-Sep-99 18:05:07
  To: All                                               09-Sep-99 05:38:02
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste)

On Wed, 08 Sep 1999 16:34:21 -0400, David T. Johnson recycled some holes
into the following pattern:

>Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> ...Also, the subject of this thread is wrong. NT (or its lineal
descendants) is
>> not x86 only. NT4 shipped with support for three other platforms, and
>> Microsoft is hot-and-heavy in development of NT for Merced, which is not
>> considered part of the x86 family.
>
>There is no NT for Merced.  There *is* Windows 2000 but this is also
>32-bit (or x86) but this is still beta software and is not a shipping
>product.  Microsoft is also working on Windows 2000 for Merced but it
>will have a major portion of its code as 32-bit, not 64-bit.  The

This is not my understanding from what I've read. My understanding is that
there will be common *source* code between the 32-bit and 64-bit versions,
but that each will be fully compiled into native binary.

>current NT4 is 32-bit software which would also make it 'x86.'  NT4 used
>to be available for the Alpha processor, but, as the original post
>mentioned, Compaq has ended development of NT on the Alpha.  Therefore,
>NT is x-86 only, (unless you know of another x86 processor that NT runs
>on.)

Why is it that you don't consider there to be any relationship between "NT"
and "Win2000", but you DO consider "WorkSpace On Demand" to be the same as
"OS/2"?

They're just names. Is this what we've descended to?

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
              -- Calvin

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From: nospam@null                                       09-Sep-99 01:50:00
  To: All                                               09-Sep-99 10:27:18
Subj: OT Slightly only  OS/2 FastBack Plus

From: nospam@null (Richard A Crane)

It has beeen suggested to me that "Mike Stephen" who wrote FB/2 is active in 
these newsgroups - if so can he post a reply please? I would like to contact 
him.


Richard A Crane 
Check Copyright of this with the author or you may suffer litigation or 
embarrassment.

ps Foolproof is not good enough ..... we're not dealing with fools

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From: dpeterso@halcyon.com                              08-Sep-99 21:17:20
  To: All                                               09-Sep-99 12:44:11
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: Dennis Peterson <dpeterso@halcyon.com>

"Steven C. Den Beste" wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 08 Sep 1999 16:34:21 -0400, David T. Johnson recycled some holes
> into the following pattern:
> 
> >Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> ...Also, the subject of this thread is wrong. NT (or its lineal
descendants) is
> >> not x86 only. NT4 shipped with support for three other platforms, and
> >> Microsoft is hot-and-heavy in development of NT for Merced, which is not
> >> considered part of the x86 family.
> >
> >There is no NT for Merced.  There *is* Windows 2000 but this is also
> >32-bit (or x86) but this is still beta software and is not a shipping
> >product.  Microsoft is also working on Windows 2000 for Merced but it
> >will have a major portion of its code as 32-bit, not 64-bit.  The
> 
> This is not my understanding from what I've read. My understanding is that
> there will be common *source* code between the 32-bit and 64-bit versions,
> but that each will be fully compiled into native binary.

Sounds very efficient -- must include behind the scenes optimizations
heretofore unheard of. Next we'll be hearing MS invented "unobtainuim".

> 
> >current NT4 is 32-bit software which would also make it 'x86.'  NT4 used
> >to be available for the Alpha processor, but, as the original post
> >mentioned, Compaq has ended development of NT on the Alpha.  Therefore,
> >NT is x-86 only, (unless you know of another x86 processor that NT runs
> >on.)
> 
> Why is it that you don't consider there to be any relationship between "NT"
> and "Win2000", but you DO consider "WorkSpace On Demand" to be the same as
> "OS/2"?

WSOD is an OS loader, not an OS. Big difference... Way big difference.
Doesn't even have to be loading OS/2, either. It also loads the user's
personal environment. Don't know why anyone might be confused about
that.

> 
> They're just names. Is this what we've descended to?

This at best is simply incorrect - at it's worst, it is a fabrication.

> 
> --------
> Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com

dp

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: dpeterso@halcyon.com                              08-Sep-99 21:08:08
  To: All                                               09-Sep-99 12:44:11
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: Dennis Peterson <dpeterso@halcyon.com>

pcguido@ibm.net wrote:

[snip]

> 
> Not _just_ the hardware, NT _still_ only supports a 2 system
> cluster! What a joke, this is an 'enterprise' system?

And only one active user at a given time. Who thought of that?

> 
> Guido

dp

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From: josco@ibm.net                                     08-Sep-99 21:42:27
  To: All                                               09-Sep-99 12:44:11
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net>


David T. Johnson wrote:

> Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
> >
> >
> > ...Also, the subject of this thread is wrong. NT (or its lineal
descendants) is
> > not x86 only. NT4 shipped with support for three other platforms, and
> > Microsoft is hot-and-heavy in development of NT for Merced, which is not
> > considered part of the x86 family.
>
> There is no NT for Merced.  There *is* Windows 2000 but this is also
> 32-bit (or x86) but this is still beta software and is not a shipping
> product.

1) Merced without x86 already has a name -- PA-RISC.  Merced is binary
compatible
with PA-RISC.   HP asked Intel to join them for the x86 compatibility.

2) Intel was and still is unable to trademark the term x86 since it has
aquired the
generic meaning that rates a processor.  They renamed their 80586 to Pentium,
a term
they can trademark.  The x86 family to is now the IA, Intel Architecture,
another
term they can trademark.

3) x86 can refer to the outdated 8088, 8006, 80186 and 80286.  None of these
old CPUs
run Win32 apps or OS/2 2,3 or 4.   It's not too confusing to say NT is only
x86 is
correct since NT 3.1 never ran on these older processors prior to Intel's name
change.  I beleive NT 3.1 ran on 386 systems.  NT 3.5 required the 486.

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From: josco@ibm.net                                     08-Sep-99 21:43:02
  To: All                                               09-Sep-99 12:44:11
Subj: Re: Microsoft...

From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net>


Kim Cheung wrote:

> On Wed, 08 Sep 1999 11:56:55 -0400, David T. Johnson wrote:
>
> >Actually, Microsoft has a gross margin on its products of something like
> >50 percent.  THAT is how they accumulated so much cash-on-hand.  This
>
> And that's about to end.   Sun's move is unquestionably an aim at the heart.
>  All those poor soul that deploy 15,000 copies of NT and upgrade to
> Office2000 - and when W2K comes around, they will all have to upgrade (again
> for the nth time - for no gain in productivity) all of their software and
> hardware.

In house apps Win32 have to be totally reengineered to use W2K features. It's
poor interpoerability with UNIX and even NT/Winx mean a site needs to fully
deploy W2K to reap many of it's administration benefits.

> Only that this time - this is an alternative: a free alternative.    It's
> funny how the tide turns on M$.
>
> Sun's move couldn't have come at a better time.   Now, if only IBM follows
> suit porting the WPS over to Linux (!!!!!)    Man,  you will see investors
> dumping M$ stock in a hurry!

IMHO you'll see MS move more of it's business to Windows Terminal Server and
WinCE to further cut Total Cost of Ownership for sites not willig to move 100%
to W2K.   How well will W2K Enterprise Server scale since that OS will need to
match with Solaris running StarOffice Java and SunRay.  Watch and see.   Sun
says they can serve 50-200 users per server.  N Peterely says Windows Terminal
Server can support 50 users per beefed up NT server.

BTW Sun's lease price per month for thier sunray appliances are 10 times
*less*
(30-40) per month than typical outsourcing leases I have seen for 32-64MB PCs
capable of running MS Office97 (300).  Their systems also have no OS on the
client whereas WinCE is -- well it's WinCE.

As a reminder, for traditional client systems with a JVM, like OS/2, the
50-200
limit for Sun servers is *meaningless* since the Java app downloads and runs
on
the OS/2-Java client.  These types of systems have a local OS and thus are not
as low cost as the plug in device as Sun is offering.

Lastly, the technical commentary on StarOffice/Java and SunRay is all
positive.
The question is how many SunRay cleints will Sun sell and to whom.  To me the
technical praise this early on means the concept will find a solid niche.  The
adoption rate is a matter of time and the need to save money vs. momentum.  
If
the savings are ~10 times less (lease price of software/hardware seat of
$30-$40
per user per month) then then W2K may be still born. By the time it is
trusted,
the whole concept may fall out of favor.



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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: horseman@ibm.net                                  08-Sep-99 19:03:16
  To: All                                               09-Sep-99 12:44:12
Subj: Re: Stardock Releases WindowBlinds v.99 - Shuns OS/2

From: Tony Wright <horseman@ibm.net>

Ok - Own up? Who opened that (Pandora's Usenet) box again?

Every time the "lid" comes off we either get inundated with debris from
a Hawaiian "fruit" merchants stall or toxic effluent from some
Californian "sewer dweller"...... there must be some "pearls" and
"sweeties" in that box somewhere?

Tim Martin wrote:

> Stardock and author Kris Kwilas have flipped off the OS/2
> community with their latest release of Window Blinds v.099.
> The hype is claiming 'millions of downloads in just a few
> months for the most desired software in the world'.

You're right there just too much hype........ even when it comes to the
numbers of members for the "most desired OS/2 site in the
world"....        :-(

I'm not convinced SDS or Mr Kwilas are actually the ones who have really
"flipped" though?

> The OS/2 user is to be thunked

Very good.....(you've been trying to understand those technical manuals
you've been diligently reading havn't you?)

so "thunked" as in when a 16 bit "idiot"  attempts to translate his "2"
bit logic to malign a 32 bit company presumably?

One has to ask the obvious hypothetical question:
If the JStreet Mailer developers additionally produced Windows
Blindspots whatever  or conversely SDS developed JStreet - would your
reaction to both still be the same?
Of course you're as obviously as intimate with JSM developers business
plans as you are with Stardocks so I guess JSM Developers could still do
no wrong in that scenario?
Or does price v free factor into your reasoning behind this return to
your usual malicious vendetta somewhere?

> for funding Stardock's  latest
>   software product which only runs on a Microsoft operating system.
>
My my....Are there really no software products that only run on an IBM
Operating system?<g>

> Tim Martin
> The OS/2 Guy
> Warp City
> http://warpcity.com
> "E-ride the wild surf to Warp City!"

Used to be a "washing powder" in the UK called "Surf" I
recall..........  that used to leave "dirty" marks behind as well if it
was mis-applied......   :-(
Perhaps concentrating less on dragging someone elses clean linen thru
the mud would enable you to devote more "free" handholding for all those
members desperately requiring your technical assistance and "clean up"
your own act?

--
Rgds Tony W   Email: horseman@ibm.net

"humanum est errare: To err is human
.... and to fail is to be a Project Manager...
...but to foul things up completely needs a computer!"



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From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               08-Sep-99 23:18:27
  To: All                                               09-Sep-99 12:44:12
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste)

On Wed, 08 Sep 1999 21:17:41 -0400, Dennis Peterson recycled some holes into
the following pattern:

>"Steven C. Den Beste" wrote:
>> 
>> On Wed, 08 Sep 1999 16:34:21 -0400, David T. Johnson recycled some holes
>> into the following pattern:
>> 
>> >Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ...Also, the subject of this thread is wrong. NT (or its lineal
descendants) is
>> >> not x86 only. NT4 shipped with support for three other platforms, and
>> >> Microsoft is hot-and-heavy in development of NT for Merced, which is not
>> >> considered part of the x86 family.
>> >
>> >There is no NT for Merced.  There *is* Windows 2000 but this is also
>> >32-bit (or x86) but this is still beta software and is not a shipping
>> >product.  Microsoft is also working on Windows 2000 for Merced but it
>> >will have a major portion of its code as 32-bit, not 64-bit.  The
>> 
>> This is not my understanding from what I've read. My understanding is that
>> there will be common *source* code between the 32-bit and 64-bit versions,
>> but that each will be fully compiled into native binary.
>
>Sounds very efficient -- must include behind the scenes optimizations
>heretofore unheard of. Next we'll be hearing MS invented "unobtainuim".

If portable Java can do it efficiently (as many here seem to claim) starting
only with byte-code, why not C-compilers beginning with the full source?

Sorry, your objection is specious.

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
              -- Calvin

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com               09-Sep-99 01:41:08
  To: All                                               09-Sep-99 12:44:12
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: "Kim Cheung" <kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com>

On Wed, 08 Sep 1999 18:05:14 -0700, Steven C. Den Beste wrote:

>but you DO consider "WorkSpace On Demand" to be the same as
>"OS/2"?

Got cha!!!    You might know all there is to know about MicroSoft products
but it would be best that you reframe from commenting on something you
obviously don't know much about.


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: helmar@argo-navisREMOVEME.com                     09-Sep-99 08:44:00
  To: All                                               09-Sep-99 12:44:12
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: helmar@argo-navisREMOVEME.com (Helmar Rudolph)

On Tue, 07 Sep 1999 17:57:34 -0400, titanium@psn.net (ZnU) wrote:

>> >And Mozilla is due out before the end of the year. Unlike IE and Netscape
>> >it'll strictly adhere to standards.
>> 
>> Opera does that today already. And... if you know the test pages
>> on the Mozilla site, Opera loaded them all - simultaneously. For
>> a cute banner I once did, check the link from
>> http://www.argo-navis.com ;)
>
>The problem with that is it's not getting much use, so developing pages
>that will only display in Opera doesn't do much good. The Mozilla engine
>will be used in future versions of Communicator, and possibly in the AOL
>browser as well. That'll give it a very sizable chunk of the market.

Opera displays pages according to the W3C standard. Period. So if
they look good in Opera, I should expect them to look good in IE
and NS, too, so I don't have to go through the nightmare of
checking with either of them for consistency. But as NS/IE don't
stick to the standards or have a lousy interpretation of it (like
NS re: CSS), this is unfortunately only a dream.

Helmar


 [ HELMAR RUDOLPH ]
 [--------------------------------------------------------]
 [ http://www.argo-navis.com                              ]
 [ Database, Relationship & Internet Marketing Specialist ]
 [ Corporate Brain Surgeon & Strategic Wealth Distributor ]
 [--------------------------------------------------------]

 

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: helmar@argo-navisREMOVEME.com                     09-Sep-99 08:44:02
  To: All                                               09-Sep-99 12:44:12
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: helmar@argo-navisREMOVEME.com (Helmar Rudolph)

On Wed, 08 Sep 1999 04:19:33 -0500, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hobbyist_=A9?=
<hobbyist@nospam.net> wrote:

>> When I hit a news site like slashdot, I'll open-in-new-window each link
>> that looks interesting then go through them one at a time.  I can
>> easily exceed 30 windows, if it is a busy day.
>
>It can be done very rapidly with Opera as well, since the
>keyboard shortcuts are beautifully thought out.
>
>Shift+left mouse click on the URL opens the URL in a new window,
>then you hit the '2' key which brings you back to the previous
>window, select another link and open it in it's own window, hit
>'2' again and so on ......

My favourite (and incidentally my invention, too) is
Shift-Ctrl-Click which opens a browser window (inside the MDI) in
the background. In practice - and now you SDI evangelists listen
carefully ;) - this translates into this:

	I go to a search engine or link listing and just S-C-click
until I no longer want more links opened. Now while I S-C-click,
my window with the search engine results or links ALWAYS remains
on top, and while I skim the listing for more interesting links,
the others open in the background just as one would expect this
from an efficient browser.

I claim to be at least 3-4, sometimes even 8-10 times faster, IOW
I get my work done much quicker with Opera than with any other
browser. And trust me, I DO browse a lot, mainly for my new site
at http://www.inspiredmind.com 

But this is getting off-topic now. 

Cheers,

Helmar		


 [ HELMAR RUDOLPH ]
 [--------------------------------------------------------]
 [ http://www.argo-navis.com                              ]
 [ Database, Relationship & Internet Marketing Specialist ]
 [ Corporate Brain Surgeon & Strategic Wealth Distributor ]
 [--------------------------------------------------------]

 

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tim@markgf.demon.co.uk                            09-Sep-99 11:21:14
  To: All                                               09-Sep-99 15:49:21
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: tim@markgf.demon.co.uk (Tim Fountain)

On Wed, 08 Sep 1999 06:57:36 -0500, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hobbyist_=A9?=
<hobbyist@nospam.net> wrote:

> In response to Ian Molton's post :
> 
> > In article <ySbWN9nB5GdjmUp2iLbnRMVLaglc@4ax.com>,
> >    Hobbyist  <hobbyist@nospam.net> wrote:
> > > I wouldn't particularly push for this type of thing globally but
> > > specifically for browsing it's a useful principle. It also works
> > > very well for editors and word processors, not to have a new
> > > window open for each document.
> > 
> > Evidently you have ever used RISC OS's method of doing things...
> 
> No. I don't feel bad about having not done so.
> 
> If it's not a waste of your time, would you tell me what it's
> like?

The main difference is that it is /far/ easier to manage window
positions on your desktop.  For one thing windows don't automatically
come to the front when you click on them, so you can be typing
something into one window, whilst monitoring what's going on in
another.

Programs often use multiple windows without it being a problem.  My
mail/newsreader, for example; when first loaded, you get a small
window which lists your mailboxes.  If you double-click on one, a new
window opens which contains the messages inside it.  If you
double-click on a message, it is opened in another window.  If you
click on 'reply', another window is opened.  You'd think all this
would make the desktop very cluttered, but it doesn't.

-- 
Tim Fountain

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From: paul.support@argonet.co.uk                        09-Sep-99 12:11:10
  To: All                                               09-Sep-99 15:49:21
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: "Ant Support (Paul)" <paul.support@argonet.co.uk>

In article <slrn7tdvt0.sg.tonyh@tonyh.tcp.co.uk>, Tony Houghton
<URL:mailto:tonyh@tcp.co.uk> wrote:
> The only things that are MUCH better about RISC OS are being able to push
> windows to the back, and no auto-fronting. Everything else is just trivial
> niceties. And it doesn't even provide you with a way of listing the windows
> so you can jump straight to the one you want without having to hunt for it
> (unless you get some 3rd party add-on). RISC OS really isn't special in
> terms of window management.

I've never quite managed to work out why people discount third party addons.
OK, so they're not written by the OS author, but that doesn't necessarily
mean that they're any less reliable or integrated. All my third party addons
together come to less than 1MB, which is still a fraction of the size of
Windows.
-- 
Paul Vigay
     _                       _________________________________
    /_| _ _. _  /| /_ _/_  /'      ANT Technical Support
   /  || (_|(_)/ |/(/_/_  /   mailto:ant.support@argonet.co.uk
________ (_) ___________./     http://www.argonet.co.uk/ant/

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: hobbyist@nospam.net                               09-Sep-99 07:56:28
  To: All                                               09-Sep-99 15:49:21
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hobbyist_=A9?= <hobbyist@nospam.net>

In response to Tim Fountain's post :


> The main difference is that it is /far/ easier to manage window
> positions on your desktop.  For one thing windows don't automatically
> come to the front when you click on them, so you can be typing
> something into one window, whilst monitoring what's going on in
> another.

Finally I hear something advantageous. :) How often does someone
wish to type something and they can't see what they're doing. It
sounds more geeky than anything else.

> Programs often use multiple windows without it being a problem.  My
> mail/newsreader, for example; when first loaded, you get a small
> window which lists your mailboxes.  If you double-click on one, a new
> window opens which contains the messages inside it.  If you
> double-click on a message, it is opened in another window.  If you
> click on 'reply', another window is opened.  You'd think all this
> would make the desktop very cluttered, but it doesn't.

Oh? Then what happens?

-- 
-=Ali=- 

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: hobbyist@nospam.net                               09-Sep-99 07:59:07
  To: All                                               09-Sep-99 15:49:21
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hobbyist_=A9?= <hobbyist@nospam.net>

In response to Ant Support (Paul)'s post :

> In article <slrn7tdvt0.sg.tonyh@tonyh.tcp.co.uk>, Tony Houghton
> <URL:mailto:tonyh@tcp.co.uk> wrote:
> > The only things that are MUCH better about RISC OS are being able to push
> > windows to the back, and no auto-fronting. Everything else is just trivial
> > niceties. And it doesn't even provide you with a way of listing the
windows
> > so you can jump straight to the one you want without having to hunt for it
> > (unless you get some 3rd party add-on). RISC OS really isn't special in
> > terms of window management.
> 
> I've never quite managed to work out why people discount third party addons.
> OK, so they're not written by the OS author, but that doesn't necessarily
> mean that they're any less reliable or integrated. All my third party addons
> together come to less than 1MB, which is still a fraction of the size of
> Windows.

Don't leave us in suspense. What third party addons do you use? I
believe in them as well so I'm wondering.

-- 
-=Ali=- 

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: josco@ibm.net                                     09-Sep-99 06:22:12
  To: All                                               09-Sep-99 15:49:21
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net>


Steven C. Den Beste wrote:

> On Wed, 08 Sep 1999 21:17:41 -0400, Dennis Peterson recycled some holes into
> the following pattern:
>
> >"Steven C. Den Beste" wrote:
> >>
> >> On Wed, 08 Sep 1999 16:34:21 -0400, David T. Johnson recycled some holes
> >> into the following pattern:
> >>
> >> >Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> ...Also, the subject of this thread is wrong. NT (or its lineal
descendants) is
> >> >> not x86 only. NT4 shipped with support for three other platforms, and
> >> >> Microsoft is hot-and-heavy in development of NT for Merced, which is
not
> >> >> considered part of the x86 family.
> >> >
> >> >There is no NT for Merced.  There *is* Windows 2000 but this is also
> >> >32-bit (or x86) but this is still beta software and is not a shipping
> >> >product.  Microsoft is also working on Windows 2000 for Merced but it
> >> >will have a major portion of its code as 32-bit, not 64-bit.  The
> >>
> >> This is not my understanding from what I've read. My understanding is
that
> >> there will be common *source* code between the 32-bit and 64-bit
versions,
> >> but that each will be fully compiled into native binary.
> >
> >Sounds very efficient -- must include behind the scenes optimizations
> >heretofore unheard of. Next we'll be hearing MS invented "unobtainuim".
>
> If portable Java can do it efficiently (as many here seem to claim) starting
> only with byte-code, why not C-compilers beginning with the full source?
>
> Sorry, your objection is specious.

Which operating system is written in Java and runs it's JVM in a JVM ?



--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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(1:109/42)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               09-Sep-99 08:20:22
  To: All                                               09-Sep-99 17:03:10
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste)

On Thu, 09 Sep 1999 06:22:24 -0400, Joseph recycled some holes into the
following pattern:

>
>
>Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 08 Sep 1999 21:17:41 -0400, Dennis Peterson recycled some holes
into
>> the following pattern:
>>
>> >"Steven C. Den Beste" wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, 08 Sep 1999 16:34:21 -0400, David T. Johnson recycled some holes
>> >> into the following pattern:
>> >>
>> >> >Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ...Also, the subject of this thread is wrong. NT (or its lineal
descendants) is
>> >> >> not x86 only. NT4 shipped with support for three other platforms, and
>> >> >> Microsoft is hot-and-heavy in development of NT for Merced, which is
not
>> >> >> considered part of the x86 family.
>> >> >
>> >> >There is no NT for Merced.  There *is* Windows 2000 but this is also
>> >> >32-bit (or x86) but this is still beta software and is not a shipping
>> >> >product.  Microsoft is also working on Windows 2000 for Merced but it
>> >> >will have a major portion of its code as 32-bit, not 64-bit.  The
>> >>
>> >> This is not my understanding from what I've read. My understanding is
that
>> >> there will be common *source* code between the 32-bit and 64-bit
versions,
>> >> but that each will be fully compiled into native binary.
>> >
>> >Sounds very efficient -- must include behind the scenes optimizations
>> >heretofore unheard of. Next we'll be hearing MS invented "unobtainuim".
>>
>> If portable Java can do it efficiently (as many here seem to claim)
starting
>> only with byte-code, why not C-compilers beginning with the full source?
>>
>> Sorry, your objection is specious.
>
>Which operating system is written in Java and runs it's JVM in a JVM ?
>
>

I'm talking about the fact that optimization of the same code for multiple
targets by different compilers is not considerered rocket science anymore.
There's no particular reason that the same source code couldn't generate
efficient binary for both IA32 and IA64.

Your objection is also specious.

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
              -- Calvin

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: morelli@math.utah.edu                             09-Sep-99 09:36:16
  To: All                                               09-Sep-99 17:03:10
Subj: Re: [OT] Thin clients pick up momentum

From: Robert Morelli <morelli@math.utah.edu>

Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
> >> Much to the chagrin of PC proponents, the thin-client movement appears
to
> >> be picking up steam, with a rash of recent moves signaling the next step
> >> in the evolution of server-centric computing.
> >>
> >> I wonder if all the people who proclimed (and are proclaimng
> >> to this day) the network computer (NC) dead realize that
> >> this is the "network computer" resurrected under a different
> >> name.
> >>
> >Consider how long it took another must-have technology to catch on and
> >how important it has become: The CD player.
> >
> >It is only a matter of time before the light goes on and the NC becomes
> >as ubiquitous. The MS attempt to achieve this same goal is SMS managed
> >networks but my God, what a lashup.
> >
> >dp
> >
> 
> What amazes me is how many people think that this is a new concept. I used a
> "network computer" (local compute power but all software administered and
> stored at the server) in 1983. It was a bunch of Sun/3 workstations, based
> on 25 MHz 68030's, with a bigger server to which we all connected via
> ethernet. Later I also used Apollo workstations, but the concept was the
> same. (The big difference was that it used token ring instead of ethernet.)
<snip> 
> Perhaps the reason why I'm skeptical about the NC concept is that I actually
> used them for years. I have seen nothing in the new proposals to suggest
> that network and server bottlenecks will be alleviated, and that was what
> caused us to hate it then. While it is true that the network pipes are wider
> and the servers are faster, it's also true that the software to be loaded is
> bigger and the data manipulated is also bigger. What you give with one hand
> gets taken back with the other. It looks like a wash to me. And whenever the
> server went down, the entire department was idled.

I am surprised that an NC critic actually introduced the precedent in this 
discussion that dispenses with the issue of the NC's practicality.  What 
apparently makes this poster skeptical is his experience 17 years ago (at
a time when a state of the art PC was about as pleasant to use as chewing 
glass).  I work at a university with a very heterogeneous computer system.
In my department our main network is run mostly by Solaris servers,
with a variety of UNIX workstation clients and also a number of diskless
X terminals.  I have also worked at other departments with similar setups
for more than 10 years.  During that time,  I have never,  even once,  lost
a single byte of data or been cut off unexpectedly from the network.  The
system is absolutely rock solid.  The X terminals,  which are basically 
NC's,  have excellent performance.  The majority of people working at them
probably aren't aware that the applications are being executed remotely.

About 3 or 4 years ago,  the top administrator of the department decided 
(despite hating MS and considering their technology unimpressive) that
the momentum behind NT was probably inexorable and started to investigate
how to integrate NT with that network.  He experimented with a few
possibilities
but found NT to be useless.  Fortunately,  he had the good sense
not to force the issue.  Unfortunately,  in some other places on campus,
the Win32 fever demented some administrators and very costly mistakes
were committed.  One of them,  a phase out of a mainframe system to an NT
based system has so far cost the university so much money -- more than 34 
million at last count -- that the state legislature called the university 
officials to account for it.  Last summer,  an entire month of purchasing
records for the entire university was lost by this system.  I had purchased
computer equipment that month and the financial secretary had to reconstruct
the records,  ...  Thankfully,  nobody I know on campus considers Win32
inexorable any more (and they still hate MS) and this sort of crap is
stopping.  
I know of a couple of departments that are now replacing NT with Linux ... 
(Praise the Lord!)

Two of the machines in our department are PC's running Win95,  in a library.  
They are not managed by the UNIX gurus who do the main network.  In the 
administrative chain of command,  people who deal with PC's are like orderlies 

who clean up feces in a hospital;  they are on the lowest rung.  They are
also the most expensive part of the system.  The UNIX machines are mostly 
managed remotely, as they are designed for that.  To administer the PC's,
you have to physically visit the machine and then fiddle.  There is supposedly
a ``zero administration'' system for Windows based clients.  In practice,
what you deal with is the result of 20 years of Microsoft ``zero innovation.''

The two PC's in the library have exactly one function.  They connect through 
Netscape to a server in the main campus library to deliver the catalog and
other 
databases.  They sit on top of counters and nobody ever installs other
software 
on them or does anything else with them.  Yet, these machines fail constantly, 
 
constantly,  constantly -- probably typically every day.  I was in the library 

last week when an ``orderly'' had to make a special trip all the way across 
campus to fiddle with one of these machines.
It took him all morning.  If we could replace these pieces of trash with
NC's,  I think everyone who uses that library would cry a collective cheer.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: paul.support@argonet.co.uk                        09-Sep-99 16:46:12
  To: All                                               09-Sep-99 17:03:10
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: "Ant Support (Paul)" <paul.support@argonet.co.uk>

In article <vK7XN2i=FWSqql6i1gTLQiQijOl=@4ax.com>, Hobbyist_
<URL:mailto:hobbyist@nospam.net> wrote:
> Don't leave us in suspense. What third party addons do you use? I believe
> in them as well so I'm wondering.

All sorts. I use !OpenFiles to keep tabs on which files are open by the
system (and close specific ones if I wish), WimpBar to give me drop down
menus along the top of the screen, LineEditor module to give me a Linux style
command history from the CLI prompt, 3DPatch to give a 3D feel to dialogue
windows, LongFiles to give long filenames on pre-RISC OS 4 machines,
CoolSwtch to switch between application windows (bit like CTRL TAB on
Windoze), DirMenu to give a filer tree on the title bar of filer windows - to
name a few. These in total only add a couple of hundred K to my system memory
usage.
-- 
Paul Vigay
     _                       _________________________________
    /_| _ _. _  /| /_ _/_  /'      ANT Technical Support
   /  || (_|(_)/ |/(/_/_  /   mailto:ant.support@argonet.co.uk
________ (_) ___________./     http://www.argonet.co.uk/ant/

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: paul.support@argonet.co.uk                        09-Sep-99 16:41:25
  To: All                                               09-Sep-99 17:03:10
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: "Ant Support (Paul)" <paul.support@argonet.co.uk>

In article <zq3XN6wuhF3l0v6agDKOFpQj4Bis@4ax.com>, Hobbyist_
<URL:mailto:hobbyist@nospam.net> wrote:
> Finally I hear something advantageous. :) How often does someone wish to
> type something and they can't see what they're doing. It sounds more geeky
> than anything else.

Quite often actually. I do this all the time. It's not typing blind, but
merely the window you're typing in is underneath another window (say an HTML
source code window or graphics editor window) but with the actual text part
visible - ie the windows are overlapping.

I often have a paintshop type image on the screen and can obscure the image
part with another window that I might be copying text out of to enter onto
the bottom of the image. I thus want to type on the bottom window without
affecting my stack of windows on top.
-- 
Paul Vigay
     _                       _________________________________
    /_| _ _. _  /| /_ _/_  /'      ANT Technical Support
   /  || (_|(_)/ |/(/_/_  /   mailto:ant.support@argonet.co.uk
________ (_) ___________./     http://www.argonet.co.uk/ant/

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: b.l.nelson@larc.nasa.gov                          09-Sep-99 11:49:14
  To: All                                               09-Sep-99 17:03:10
Subj: Re: Stardock Releases WindowBlinds v.99 - Shuns OS/2

From: Bennie Nelson <b.l.nelson@larc.nasa.gov>

Tim Martin wrote:
> 
> Bennie Nelson wrote:
> 
> > Tim Martin wrote:
> > >
> > > Stardock and author Kris Kwilas have flipped off the OS/2
> > > community with their latest release of Window Blinds v.099.
> > > The hype is claiming 'millions of downloads in just a few
> > > months for the most desired software in the world'.
> > >
> > > The OS/2 user is to be thunked for funding Stardock's  latest
> > > software product which only runs on a Microsoft operating system.
> >
> > Since I haven't purchased any SD software, I'll stay at 32 bits.
> >
> > Oh.  You must have meant "thanked" instead of "thunked."
> 
> No, I meant 'thunked".  That's exactly what the OS/2 user
> gets from the self-proclaimed Number One OS/2 ISV - thunked.

Were you using another definition of "thunked" that means something
other than converting between 32 bits and 16 bits? 

> 
> > As an OS/2 user who believes that programming is a form of
> > free speech, I don't see anything wrong with SD coding and
> > releasing Windows software.
> 
> The fact that the OS/2 community if funding the Windows
> development and getting nothing in return other than lip
> service and empty "We support OS/2" rhetoric seems to
> have been lost on you.

I'm not privy to SD's financial information, so I am not in a
position to confirm or deny the first part of your statement.
So, if that part is a fact, the evidence to support your
claim has not come my way.  Furthermore, I doubt that you
are privy to SD's financial information and business plans.

As for the second part of your statement, without impugning
anyone, it does seem that marketing rhetoric could be added
to Mark Twain's statement about lies and statistics.  
Marketing claims must be carefully parsed to determine
what is actually being said.

Besides, you ignore the fact that I was approaching this from
the aspect of freedom.  You have not addressed this central
point of my post, and you've only recycled your anti-SD
rhetoric.

> 
> > IF they have signed contracts
> > that are violated by those actions, or, IF SD gave its word
> > that such activity would never occur or would not occur
> > given certain conditions which have not been met, then that
> > would be a different story.
> >
> 
> Except for the fact that they are using the OS/2 community
> to fund that Windows development and giving nothing back
> to the OS/2 community in the way of substantial native OS/2
> software seems to have been lost on you.

This is restating the point above.  There is nothing that
has come my way that proves or disproves your statement.

> 
> >
> > Is there any evidence to support any of these conditions?
> 
> Do you see a release of Window Blinds for OS/2?  That's
> your evidence Bennie.  What you see is a lack of OS/2
> application development all the while Stardock proclaims
> to be the number one OS/2 ISV while they hawk their faded
> OS/2 software to the OS/2 user and use those profits to
> worm their way away from OS/2 and into the world of
> Windows.
> 
> That fact seems to be lost on you Bennie.  Rather than
> dupe the OS/2 community Stardock should simply release
> their faded OS/2 software into the open, give it away freely
> and allow OS/2 programmers who love and care about OS/2
> to enhance, improve and  continue to develop it rather than
> allow it to die a slow faded death.  Stardock has no intention
> of supporting OS/2 but they don't want you to know that because
> they need your OS/2 money to further develop Microsoft software.

What seems lost in your reply is that I, as someone who has not
purchased any SD products, am unaffected by their decisions 
concerning product development and availability.  Even if SD's
OS/2 software was made available for free, I still wouldn't use 
it.

As for "Windows Blinds", I think it's quite appropriate that 
there is no OS/2 version.  Windows users do seem to be more 
prone to blindness when it comes to technical matters, especially,
technical excellence.

I have lost no sleep over the lack of a comparable blinding
software utility for OS/2.  Neither has my productivity been
adversely affected by the lack of such a product for my favorite
OS.

> 
> > >
> > > Tim Martin
> > > The OS/2 Guy
> > > Warp City
> > > http://warpcity.com
> > > "E-ride the wild surf to Warp City!"
> >

Regards,
Bennie Nelson

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: hobbyist@nospam.net                               09-Sep-99 11:53:21
  To: All                                               09-Sep-99 17:03:11
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hobbyist_=A9?= <hobbyist@nospam.net>

Ant Support (Paul)'s wrote +/- quoted :

> In article <zq3XN6wuhF3l0v6agDKOFpQj4Bis@4ax.com>, Hobbyist_
> <URL:mailto:hobbyist@nospam.net> wrote:
> > Finally I hear something advantageous. :) How often does someone wish to
> > type something and they can't see what they're doing. It sounds more geeky
> > than anything else.
> 
> Quite often actually. I do this all the time. It's not typing blind, but
> merely the window you're typing in is underneath another window (say an HTML
> source code window or graphics editor window) but with the actual text part
> visible - ie the windows are overlapping.
> 
> I often have a paintshop type image on the screen and can obscure the image
> part with another window that I might be copying text out of to enter onto
> the bottom of the image. I thus want to type on the bottom window without
> affecting my stack of windows on top.

Hmmm. I see. I consider myself a geek by my standards so I'm glad
that you were't offended by the use of the term. The beauty of
windows is that there may just be some utility around to give you
this ability. One OS will not have all the advantages and quirks
to satisfy all users.

Good for you that you happen to have an OS using that has this
useful feature for you out-of-the-box. :)

-- 
-=Ali=- 

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: hobbyist@nospam.net                               09-Sep-99 11:59:02
  To: All                                               09-Sep-99 17:03:11
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hobbyist_=A9?= <hobbyist@nospam.net>

Ant Support (Paul)'s wrote +/- quoted :

> In article <vK7XN2i=FWSqql6i1gTLQiQijOl=@4ax.com>, Hobbyist_
> <URL:mailto:hobbyist@nospam.net> wrote:
> > Don't leave us in suspense. What third party addons do you use? I believe
> > in them as well so I'm wondering.
> 
> All sorts. I use !OpenFiles to keep tabs on which files are open by the
> system (and close specific ones if I wish), WimpBar to give me drop down
> menus along the top of the screen, LineEditor module to give me a Linux
style
> command history from the CLI prompt, 3DPatch to give a 3D feel to dialogue
> windows, LongFiles to give long filenames on pre-RISC OS 4 machines,
> CoolSwtch to switch between application windows (bit like CTRL TAB on
> Windoze), DirMenu to give a filer tree on the title bar of filer windows -
to
> name a few. These in total only add a couple of hundred K to my system
memory
> usage.

Is this windows that you are speaking about or RiscOS?

For my NT system, I use Perfect Screens to give me multiple
desktop functionality, Clipcache to improve my clipboard
capabilities, Getright to improve my ftp and downloading
capabilities, rascal pro to better monitor my internet
connections and keep them active to avoid unwanted
disconnections, Salamander to improve on explorer, BeDeamon as a
task launcher and many other small utilities that I use as
needed. :)

-- 
-=Ali=- 

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: cmkrnl@cix.compulink.co.uk                        09-Sep-99 18:24:21
  To: All                                               09-Sep-99 17:03:11
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: Greg Hennessy <cmkrnl@cix.compulink.co.uk>

On 9 Sep 1999 06:08:27 GMT, darren.winsper@easynet.co.uk (Darren
Winsper) wrote:

>Nab one of the latest nightly builds.  I've been building from the
>CVS tree for the past month or so now and things are really starting
>to stabilise.

Just might do that. 

greg

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mike@lionsgate.com                                09-Sep-99 17:58:12
  To: All                                               09-Sep-99 17:03:11
Subj: Re: OT Slightly only  OS/2 FastBack Plus

From: mike@lionsgate.com (Mike Stephen)

In message
<dXgYJNBkfqLN-pn2-WdPsD1TbX3ox@slip202-135-73-205.sy.au.ibm.net> -
nospam@null (Richard A Crane) writes:
:>
:>It has beeen suggested to me that "Mike Stephen" who wrote FB/2 is active in 

:>these newsgroups - if so can he post a reply please? I would like to contact 

:>him.
:>
:>
:>Richard A Crane 
:>Check Copyright of this with the author or you may suffer litigation or 
:>embarrassment.
:>
:>ps Foolproof is not good enough ..... we're not dealing with fools
:>

Just to clarify.....  I do not write code.  Never have (other than a
few Rexx scripts).  I did however get Fastback/2 rolling with %th
Generation Systems.  I did negotiate a contract with then.  I did help
with the initial design style.  I did test the hell out of it....  

And finally I did get paid to do so.

And yes of couse I did get screwed by Symantec when they bought 5Th
Generation Systems.


--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com               09-Sep-99 12:12:26
  To: All                                               09-Sep-99 20:01:15
Subj: Re: [OT] Thin clients pick up momentum

From: "Kim Cheung" <kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com>

On Thu, 09 Sep 1999 09:36:33 -0600, Robert Morelli wrote:

>It took him all morning.  If we could replace these pieces of trash with
>NC's,  I think everyone who uses that library would cry a collective cheer.

You're more than welcome to come to WarpExpo West to take a look at how we're
running the Vendor 100 booth using our WiseManager diskless PC technology
(see www.scoug.com).

Don't mean to be a commercial - just amazed what kind of crap M$ puts people
through.


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From: titanium@psn.net                                  09-Sep-99 16:31:26
  To: All                                               09-Sep-99 23:52:09
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: titanium@psn.net (ZnU)

In article <37d766a8.1343451@news.icon.co.za>,
helmar@argo-navisREMOVEME.com wrote:

> On Tue, 07 Sep 1999 17:57:34 -0400, titanium@psn.net (ZnU) wrote:
> 
> >> >And Mozilla is due out before the end of the year. Unlike IE and
Netscape
> >> >it'll strictly adhere to standards.
> >> 
> >> Opera does that today already. And... if you know the test pages
> >> on the Mozilla site, Opera loaded them all - simultaneously. For
> >> a cute banner I once did, check the link from
> >> http://www.argo-navis.com ;)
> >
> >The problem with that is it's not getting much use, so developing pages
> >that will only display in Opera doesn't do much good. The Mozilla engine
> >will be used in future versions of Communicator, and possibly in the AOL
> >browser as well. That'll give it a very sizable chunk of the market.
> 
> Opera displays pages according to the W3C standard. Period. So if
> they look good in Opera, I should expect them to look good in IE
> and NS, too, so I don't have to go through the nightmare of
> checking with either of them for consistency. But as NS/IE don't
> stick to the standards or have a lousy interpretation of it (like
> NS re: CSS), this is unfortunately only a dream.

Right, this is all good. In theory. I've seen pages that render correctly
in iCab (which is also rather standards compliant), but don't render
correctly in IE.

-- 
This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a
means of communication. The device is inherently of no value to us.
        - Western Union internal memo, 1876. 

ZnU <titanium@psn.net>

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From: b o b h @ w a s a t c h . c o m                   09-Sep-99 15:35:18
  To: All                                               10-Sep-99 04:48:06
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: Bob Hauck <b o b h @ w a s a t c h . c o m>

Hobbyist  <hobbyist@nospam.net> writes:

> For my NT system, I use Perfect Screens to give me multiple desktop
> functionality,

Hey!  That looks like just what I've been looking for.  Any problems
with conflicts with other add-ons, particularly XFeel from the MS
Powertoys?  Does it get along with SP5?

-- 
 -| Bob Hauck
 -| Wasatch Communications Group
 -| http://www.wasatch.com/~bobh

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From: kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com               09-Sep-99 15:21:18
  To: All                                               10-Sep-99 04:48:06
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: "Kim Cheung" <kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com>

On Thu, 09 Sep 1999 08:20:45 -0700, Steven C. Den Beste wrote:

>There's no particular reason that the same source code couldn't generate
>efficient binary for both IA32 and IA64.

That's not true!!!



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From: morelli@math.utah.edu                             08-Sep-99 14:10:28
  To: All                                               10-Sep-99 04:48:07
Subj: Re: Sun to proliferate Star Office... (Open source perspective)

From: Robert Morelli <morelli@math.utah.edu>

Dennis Peterson wrote:
> > The real reason why Star Office still has no chance against Office, is
> > because coporations have standardized on Office.  They are more then
> > willing to buy their MS Office volume discount to get their standards.
> 
> And those standards reduce simply to file format and the user interface.
> If staroffice properly and adequately clones those two features, MS
> office is just an expensive white elephant. So far, that is true.

In my opinion,  what is crucial is whether Sun is really serious about 
making Star Office open source and whether the open source community really
gets involved.  If Star Office develops on the Linux open source model,
it will rather quickly overtake MS Office on features and it will be more
reliable.  Getting the development to go this way,  and getting the public
spirit, won't just happen by itself.  Sun will have to make it happen.
If is does,  I think SO will prevail.  You could enumerate a list of all the 
features (including performance,  reliability,  etc.) that MS Office is
purported 
to have over SO,  and post it in a public place,  with attributions to whoever
is making progress on them.  My guess is you'd see that list dwindle
significantly 
from month to month.  If this happens,  I think that SO will in time replace
MS 
Office,  just as Linux is starting to replace NT as a server.  If the
development 
remains mostly in Sun's hands,  I don't have a prediction about what will
happen.
 
> MS isn't going to sit still, though. I expect there will be office 2000,
> Office 2000.25, office 2000.5, etc., in an endless game to send the
> staroffice coders off on a filter/feature catch-up race. It would not
> come as a big surprise to me to learn that MS already has the next
> half-dozen versions ready for serial release - and each incompatible
> with the previous release. The lesson learned from selling the blades
> and giving away the razor.

If SO develops on the community source model as I described above,  MS won't
want to go there.  It'd be like trying to play chess against a computer by
looking more moves ahead.  Playing version games works great against a
commercial opponent that has limited resources.  The open source community
would 
have the file filters done before new versions of Office come out of alpha, 
and 
they'd probably be more reliable than MS's own for previous releases.

To recount an anlogous situation,  I know someone who just installed Linux and 

NT on the same brand new state of the art dual processor PC.  Linux installed 
flawlessly with every driver correct;  NT stalled on installation and ended
up being a major hassle.  The installation of Linux used to be a problem,  but
with contributions from the whole open source community,  it's starting to
overtake installation of commercial OS's.  One further point about this:
Intel demoed Linux,  but not Windows, running on the Merced.  Linux is already
ported even though it's going to be a long time before this chip is in wide
use.  Windows isn't there yet.  You can bet MS would like to be there,  but
they can't compete on things like this with Linux.

One last point about file formats:  Sun announced that they will be
transitioning
to an XML based file structure for SO.  An XML file structure announces its
syntax 
and meaning in its headers,  is platform independent,  and it can be parsed
and 
manipulated easily by generic programming tools,  without any loss of
flexibility.  
This will be a big advantage to users,  especially corporate users.  It's also 
a 
tough choice for a traditional software vendor like MS because it commodotizes
their formats.  In time,  MS will need to *explain* why they aren't using XML. 
 
If they are playing versioning games to boot,  I think it could alienate their 

customers.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: spambotsbewasre@antispam.org                      09-Sep-99 20:37:09
  To: All                                               10-Sep-99 04:48:07
Subj: The Ultimate Operating System News (yes we have OS/2!)

From: "spambotsbeware@antispam.org" <spambotsbewasre@antispam.org>

http://TheUltimateOS.com

News
Reviews
Free @TheUltimateOs.com email!
And much more


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From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               09-Sep-99 17:48:01
  To: All                                               10-Sep-99 04:48:07
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste)

On 09 Sep 1999 15:21:36 PDT, Kim Cheung recycled some holes into the
following pattern:

>On Thu, 09 Sep 1999 08:20:45 -0700, Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
>
>>There's no particular reason that the same source code couldn't generate
>>efficient binary for both IA32 and IA64.
>
>That's not true!!!
>
>

In that case, Java JIT's shouldn't be able to do it either. But it seems to
be the consensus in this group that there's no barrier to having a JIT
generate efficient code on all platforms starting from the same portable
byte-code.

Why, then, can't C compilers working directly from source which was
deliberately written to be portable also generate efficient code on just two
different platforms?

My direct professional experience is that they can. This is something I know
a great deal about, since I've been programming primarily in C, for embedded
microprocessors, for most of the last 24 years.

If you think my contention is not true, how about giving a reason why rather
than just "automatically gainsaying what the other person says".

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
              -- Calvin

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From: hobbyist@nospam.net                               09-Sep-99 19:53:03
  To: All                                               10-Sep-99 04:48:07
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hobbyist_=A9?= <hobbyist@nospam.net>

Bob Hauck <b o b h @ w a s a t c h . c o m> wrote +/- quoted :

> Hobbyist  <hobbyist@nospam.net> writes:
> 
> > For my NT system, I use Perfect Screens to give me multiple desktop
> > functionality,
> 
> Hey!  That looks like just what I've been looking for.  Any problems
> with conflicts with other add-ons, particularly XFeel from the MS
> Powertoys?  Does it get along with SP5?

It works fine with SP5 and doesn't seem to have problems with the
other apps that I run. I don't use XFeel so I can't comment on
it. What's XFeel anyway? :)

-- 
-=Ali=- 

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From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu                             10-Sep-99 01:01:08
  To: All                                               10-Sep-99 04:48:07
Subj: Re: Why NT is different from OS/2

From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu

Steven C. Den Beste writes:

> (A Fry's store is like nirvana for a technotoy freak; they carry
> EVERYTHING.)

Incorrect.

> And if IBM is so much smarter, why is OS/2 a fading memory while NT
> is now coming into its prime?

On what basis do you call OS/2 a "fading memory", Steven?

> IBM used to announce OS/2 sales figures when OS/2 sales were still brisk;
> they'd issue a press release on each million units sold. The last
> announcement was at 13 million, and the generally most optimistic number
> bandied about here for cumulative OS/2 sales is 19 million. I myself don't
> believe that the number is that high, but if it is, 37 million is just about
> twice 19 million. And NT sales are continuing to be brisk, while OS/2 sales
> continue to be really slow by comparison.

Here you are claiming that OS/2 sales continue to be really slow, but
a couple of sentences ago, you claimed that the last announcement was
at 13 million, which was some years ago.  So how would you know the
current sales, Steven?

> OS/2 is being left in the dust.

Evidence, please.

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From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu                             10-Sep-99 01:02:03
  To: All                                               10-Sep-99 04:48:07
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu

Jason Bowen writes:

> David T. Johnson wrote:

>> They certainly would not release new products such as Warp Server for
>> e-Business or Workspace on Demand if they were exiting the OS/2
>> business.  

> Evidence please.  How do you know what IBM would do?

It's been said that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

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From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               09-Sep-99 20:06:10
  To: All                                               10-Sep-99 04:48:07
Subj: Re: Sun to proliferate Star Office... (Open source perspective)

From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste)

On Wed, 08 Sep 1999 14:10:56 -0600, Robert Morelli recycled some holes into
the following pattern:

>One last point about file formats:  Sun announced that they will be
transitioning
>to an XML based file structure for SO.  An XML file structure announces its
syntax 
>and meaning in its headers,  is platform independent,  and it can be parsed
and 
>manipulated easily by generic programming tools,  without any loss of
flexibility.  
>This will be a big advantage to users,  especially corporate users.  It's
also a 
>tough choice for a traditional software vendor like MS because it
commodotizes
>their formats.  In time,  MS will need to *explain* why they aren't using
XML.  
>If they are playing versioning games to boot,  I think it could alienate
their 
>customers.

You presume too much. MS is not going to have to explain anything.

http://www.builder.com/Authoring/Xml20/ss10.html
"CEO Bill Gates has stated publicly that future versions of Microsoft Office
will support XML, and the company also plans to support the standard in
email packages and XML-authoring tools."

Microsoft actually announced that about a year ago. Since that time,
Office2000 has been released. It supports XML, read AND write.

So what's to explain?

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
              -- Calvin

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From: josco@ibm.net                                     09-Sep-99 20:40:28
  To: All                                               10-Sep-99 04:48:07
Subj: Re: Sun to proliferate Star Office... (Open source perspective)

From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net>


Robert Morelli wrote:

> Dennis Peterson wrote:
> > > The real reason why Star Office still has no chance against Office, is
> > > because coporations have standardized on Office.  They are more then
> > > willing to buy their MS Office volume discount to get their standards.
> >
> > And those standards reduce simply to file format and the user interface.
> > If staroffice properly and adequately clones those two features, MS
> > office is just an expensive white elephant. So far, that is true.
>
> In my opinion,  what is crucial is whether Sun is really serious about
> making Star Office open source and whether the open source community really
> gets involved.  If Star Office develops on the Linux open source model,
> it will rather quickly overtake MS Office on features and it will be more
> reliable.  G

I think ONLY reliability needs improvment (although it is very relaible now).
Features already in SO are overkill and in MS Word  they went insane after
v6.0.  I
found out WORD has a built in org chart application..  With SO, maybe add some
usability fixes or improvements to the icons and "tooltips" text. Minor.

> One last point about file formats:  Sun announced that they will be
transitioning
> to an XML based file structure for SO.  An XML file structure announces its
syntax
> and meaning in its headers,  is platform independent,  and it can be parsed
and
> manipulated easily by generic programming tools,  without any loss of
flexibility.
> This will be a big advantage to users,  especially corporate users.  It's
also a
> tough choice for a traditional software vendor like MS because it
commodotizes
> their formats.  In time,  MS will need to *explain* why they aren't using
XML.
> If they are playing versioning games to boot,  I think it could alienate
their
> customers.

Yes,  File formats are important and a gimmick to keep users locked into a
format but
the problem is in reading and saving, not translating.  Users will not
tolerate file
format games as we saw with RTF being used in place of the Word 6.0 format. 
(*BTEW MS
RTF files created with Word97 do not import in older tools that support RTF -- 
like WP
6.0!

WordPerfect once shipped Letterperfect, a low cost tool that let users edit WP
documents on say a laptop and then save to WP format WITHOUT losing WP
information LP
did not support.  Letterperfect did not edit tables but LP did read and save
them so
WP users had no loss of document info.  XLM offers the same robust file edit
and save.

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From: kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com               09-Sep-99 21:12:21
  To: All                                               10-Sep-99 04:48:07
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: "Kim Cheung" <kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com>

On Thu, 09 Sep 1999 17:48:02 -0700, Steven C. Den Beste wrote:

>My direct professional experience is that they can. This is something I know
>a great deal about, since I've been programming primarily in C, for embedded
>microprocessors, for most of the last 24 years.
>
>If you think my contention is not true, how about giving a reason why rather
>than just "automatically gainsaying what the other person says".

I don't need to "gainsaying" nothing.   As somebody that retired from the
field of numerical analysis and system simulation, I consider myself somewhat
knowledgeble in the field of computer instruction world length and so forth. 
   My first computer is the Cyber system running 60 bit instructions.

How many algorithm have you designed to take advantage of the super-scaler
instruction sets?    And explain to me how you "won't" benefit from a wider
word length.





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From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               10-Sep-99 01:15:13
  To: All                                               10-Sep-99 10:22:08
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste)

On 09 Sep 1999 21:12:43 PDT, Kim Cheung recycled some holes into the
following pattern:

>On Thu, 09 Sep 1999 17:48:02 -0700, Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
>
>>My direct professional experience is that they can. This is something I know
>>a great deal about, since I've been programming primarily in C, for embedded
>>microprocessors, for most of the last 24 years.
>>
>>If you think my contention is not true, how about giving a reason why rather
>>than just "automatically gainsaying what the other person says".
>
>I don't need to "gainsaying" nothing.   As somebody that retired from the
>field of numerical analysis and system simulation, I consider myself somewhat
>knowledgeble in the field of computer instruction world length and so forth. 
>   My first computer is the Cyber system running 60 bit instructions.
>
>How many algorithm have you designed to take advantage of the super-scaler
>instruction sets?    And explain to me how you "won't" benefit from a wider
>word length.

I don't work on anything even remotely that large. Read my lips: "embedded
microprocessors".

My definition of "efficient" means "approaching the maximum speed that the
CPU is capable of". When I say that two compilers working from the same
source can generate binary which is efficient for two processors, I don't
mean that the results will operate at the same speed on those two processors
so that an external observer couldn't tell their behavior apart. I mean that
the results on each processor will operate at efficiency levels comparable
to that achieved by programs on that processor which were not written to be
portable. Each will operate at its own maximum productivity, though that may
not match the productivity of the other.

I have no doubt at all that many kinds of code will run faster on the IA64
than they do on the IA32. My point was that a single codebase which is
written to run on both won't be significantly slower on either than code for
each written uniquely and separately.

There are fairly standard ways of writing C code which yield source which
gives the compiler the maximum opportunity for optimization. C compilers are
a very mature technology. C++ is not very far behind.

But the underlying architecture of the IA32 has been and remains kludgy,
whereas I assume Intel will have learned their lesson and the native
architecture of the IA64 will be orthogonal, like it ought to be. From this
a great deal of efficiency will be gained due to a significant decrease in
register-to-register moves needed to get a value into the one-and-only
register where some particular function can be performed, a common problem
in IA32 code. (This is unrelated to how the IA64 will act when it is
executing IA32 code, of course. In that case it emulates the IA32
architecture with all its warts.)


My specialty, by the way, is taking very small/slow/stupid CPUs and
squeezing the last ounce of capability out of them, so as to keep expense
and power consumption to a minimum. The goal is to use extremely slow CPUs
with narrow words and still get maximum performance. This is not trivial.

One product I worked on once, extremely high tech and very successful
commercially and perceived as doing an enormous amount of computing, had an
actual blazingly fast clock speed of about 14 MHz. And it used wait states
because the memory couldn't go that fast. Making sure everything happened on
time was a major feat, because if we missed ANY deadline, it would be
blatantly obvious to the user.

60 bit words in a superscalar architecture, being powered from a wall
socket? Luxury beyond price. You don't know how good you've got it. Try
designing something equally compute intensive that runs off a NiCad battery
as its sole power source. Then get back to me.

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
              -- Calvin

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From: paul.support@argonet.co.uk                        10-Sep-99 09:46:04
  To: All                                               10-Sep-99 10:22:08
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: "Ant Support (Paul)" <paul.support@argonet.co.uk>

In article <R+bXNy2DKFoopyehLJQRdqGZR=zV@4ax.com>, Hobbyist_
<URL:mailto:hobbyist@nospam.net> wrote:
> Is this windows that you are speaking about or RiscOS?

RISC OS!
-- 
Paul Vigay
     _                       _________________________________
    /_| _ _. _  /| /_ _/_  /'      ANT Technical Support
   /  || (_|(_)/ |/(/_/_  /   mailto:ant.support@argonet.co.uk
________ (_) ___________./     http://www.argonet.co.uk/ant/

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From: polaris@ursaminr.demon.com.uk                     09-Sep-99 22:21:02
  To: All                                               10-Sep-99 10:22:08
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: Peter Smith <polaris@ursaminr.demon.com.uk>

In message <zq3XN6wuhF3l0v6agDKOFpQj4Bis@4ax.com>
          Hobbyist  <hobbyist@nospam.net> wrote:

> In response to Tim Fountain's post :
> 
> 
> > The main difference is that it is /far/ easier to manage window
> > positions on your desktop.  For one thing windows don't automatically
> > come to the front when you click on them, so you can be typing
> > something into one window, whilst monitoring what's going on in
> > another.
> 
> Finally I hear something advantageous. :) How often does someone
> wish to type something and they can't see what they're doing. It
> sounds more geeky than anything else.
> 

It's not just typing in.

Say for example, you're copying _some_ files from one window to another
window (under Windows). When you drop the files in the destination window,
this window pops to the front. If it obscures the source window, you've then
got to do _something_ to get it back.

With RiscOS, you can drop the files in the destination window, and keep the
source one at the top. So long as _some_ of the window pane is showing, you
can drag the files there. 

In addition, you can drag windows from _behind_ the stack, as though it were
a sheet of paper, so you can see a _bit_ of it, and then put it back again.
Again, without the window popping to the front.

OTOH, this does have _one_ disadvantage, in that it's impossible (without the
use of a 3rd party patch) to brind a window to the front unless its title bar
or resize icon can be seen.

The patch I use allows you (when pressing ALT) to drag a whole window. When
clicking the left mouse button, it brings it to the front of the stack. Using
the right bouse button, it leaves it in the stack (depth wise) but allows you
to change its position.

> > Programs often use multiple windows without it being a problem.  My
> > mail/newsreader, for example; when first loaded, you get a small
> > window which lists your mailboxes.  If you double-click on one, a new
> > window opens which contains the messages inside it.  If you
> > double-click on a message, it is opened in another window.  If you
> > click on 'reply', another window is opened.  You'd think all this
> > would make the desktop very cluttered, but it doesn't.
> 
> Oh? Then what happens?
> 

You reply int the newest window, close it, click on "Post" (or your local
equivalent!), and then you're back with fewer windows.

HTH

Peter

-- 
To reply by mail, remove the last "m" in my email address
51 things to do in a lift...
 38. Say "I wonder what all these do" and push the red buttons.

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From: spyro@neo.rr.com                                  10-Sep-99 06:56:25
  To: All                                               10-Sep-99 10:22:08
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: Ian Molton <spyro@neo.rr.com>

In article <3c573f49%polaris@ursaminr.demon.co.uk>,
   Peter Smith <polaris@ursaminr.demon.com.uk> wrote:
> OTOH, this does have _one_ disadvantage, in that it's impossible
> (without the use of a 3rd party patch) to brind a window to the front
> unless its title bar or resize icon can be seen.

however, this is rarely a problem, and even when it is theres often a
convienient alternative (ie, reopen a directory, and it pops to the front)

-- 
-Ian aka Spyro
Acorn Computers, the best in the world
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hawk/
Autism is for life, not just for Christmas.

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From: hobbyist@nospam.net                               10-Sep-99 06:36:07
  To: All                                               10-Sep-99 10:22:08
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hobbyist_=A9?= <hobbyist@nospam.net>

Peter Smith wrote +/- quoted :


> > Finally I hear something advantageous. :) How often does someone
> > wish to type something and they can't see what they're doing. It
> > sounds more geeky than anything else.
> > 
> 
> It's not just typing in.
> 
> Say for example, you're copying _some_ files from one window to another
> window (under Windows). When you drop the files in the destination window,
> this window pops to the front. If it obscures the source window, you've then
> got to do _something_ to get it back.
> 
> With RiscOS, you can drop the files in the destination window, and keep the
> source one at the top. So long as _some_ of the window pane is showing, you
> can drag the files there. 

I just did what you just described with my NT system here. I
opened clipcache which opened in front of my newsreader Agent.
The clipcache window is smaller than Agents so the editor window
for Agent is partially visible. I select a block of text in
clipcache and drag'n'drop it into agent's editor. Agent's editor
window didn't pop up to the front as you claimed it would.
 
> In addition, you can drag windows from _behind_ the stack, as though it were
> a sheet of paper, so you can see a _bit_ of it, and then put it back again.
> Again, without the window popping to the front.

Now *that* I cannot do. :)
It offers a minor advantage but not significantly so.
 
> OTOH, this does have _one_ disadvantage, in that it's impossible (without
the
> use of a 3rd party patch) to brind a window to the front unless its title
bar
> or resize icon can be seen.

Now that shortcoming, I couldn't tolerate and I'd not give that
up for the advantage you stated previously.
 
> The patch I use allows you (when pressing ALT) to drag a whole window. When
> clicking the left mouse button, it brings it to the front of the stack.
Using
> the right bouse button, it leaves it in the stack (depth wise) but allows
you
> to change its position.

Nice.
 
> > > Programs often use multiple windows without it being a problem.  My
> > > mail/newsreader, for example; when first loaded, you get a small
> > > window which lists your mailboxes.  If you double-click on one, a new
> > > window opens which contains the messages inside it.  If you
> > > double-click on a message, it is opened in another window.  If you
> > > click on 'reply', another window is opened.  You'd think all this
> > > would make the desktop very cluttered, but it doesn't.
> > 
> > Oh? Then what happens?
> > 
> 
> You reply int the newest window, close it, click on "Post" (or your local
> equivalent!), and then you're back with fewer windows.

I do this in windows. I don't see the difference.

-- 
-=Ali=- 

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From: roelofh@NOSPAM-itholland.com                      10-Sep-99 15:33:10
  To: All                                               10-Sep-99 14:32:05
Subj: Re: Stardock Releases WindowBlinds v.99 - Shuns OS/2

From: "roelof 't Hooft" <roelofh@NOSPAM-itholland.com>

On Wed, 08 Sep 1999 19:07:21 +0200, Gerben Bergman wrote:

;)Tim, you've been told a million times by now that it's the other way around:
;)Stardock's Windows sales are funding their OS/2 development. When will that
;)simple truth get through to your brain?

Supposing, to begin with, that there is a brain in his head :-)

roelof
-------------------------------------------------------------
Windows Airlines:
  The terminals are very neat and clean, the attendants very
  attractive, the pilots very capable. The carrier's fleet of
  Learjets is immense. Your jet takes off without a hitch,
  pushing above the clouds and at 20.000 feet it explodes.
-------------------------------------------------------------


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From: josco@ibm.net                                     10-Sep-99 07:10:06
  To: All                                               10-Sep-99 14:32:05
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net>


Steven C. Den Beste wrote:

> On 09 Sep 1999 21:12:43 PDT, Kim Cheung recycled some holes into the
> following pattern:
>
> >On Thu, 09 Sep 1999 17:48:02 -0700, Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
> I don't work on anything even remotely that large. Read my lips: "embedded
> microprocessors".
>
> My definition of "efficient" means "approaching the maximum speed that the
> CPU is capable of".

Capable of what?

> When I say that two compilers working from the same
> source can generate binary which is efficient for two processors, I don't
> mean that the results will operate at the same speed on those two processors
> so that an external observer couldn't tell their behavior apart. I mean that
> the results on each processor will operate at efficiency levels comparable
> to that achieved by programs on that processor which were not written to be
> portable. Each will operate at its own maximum productivity, though that may
> not match the productivity of the other.
>
> I have no doubt at all that many kinds of code will run faster on the IA64
> than they do on the IA32. My point was that a single codebase which is
> written to run on both won't be significantly slower on either than code for
> each written uniquely and separately.

That might be true and it might not be true --- MS doesn't use one codebase so
with NT and W2K so the point is moot.Sun does not use one JVM codebase.

> There are fairly standard ways of writing C code which yield source which
> gives the compiler the maximum opportunity for optimization. C compilers are
> a very mature technology. C++ is not very far behind.

That's been true for a long time.  You make a trivial case.   What hasn't been
true is that one codebase has been use for NT.   With respect to the topic --
your
theory is still born.  What may be possible to some low degree of possibility
is
not true.

> But the underlying architecture of the IA32 has been and remains kludgy,
> whereas I assume Intel will have learned their lesson and the native
> architecture of the IA64 will be orthogonal, like it ought to be.

IA64 is a hybrid of PA and IA instructions -- sounds kludgy.

You can write 10 pages of speculative text.  Since MS uses miltuple codebases
for
NT and W2K, your speculation is a waste of time.

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From: kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com               10-Sep-99 08:23:22
  To: All                                               10-Sep-99 17:01:23
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: "Kim Cheung" <kimwaicSpamGoToGarbage@deltanet.com>

On Fri, 10 Sep 1999 01:15:26 -0700, Steven C. Den Beste wrote:

>I don't work on anything even remotely that large. Read my lips: "embedded
>microprocessors".

There's a lot more to computing then just embedded systems, and the Windows
desktop.   That's why I pity the M$ world.   So much of the Windows
generation thinks they know it all (Mr. Todd?)

You were making comment about how compiler technology should make it simply
to have a common IA32 and IA64 code set.   I simply said "that's not true" -
in the sense that a sane OS designer would not do that.   But then again,
it's M$ we're talking about here.




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From: pridgen@texas.net                                 10-Sep-99 11:13:18
  To: All                                               10-Sep-99 17:01:24
Subj: e-suite

From: "William H. Pridgen" <pridgen@texas.net>

Development relevevant to Java:

http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?99099.enesuite.htm

FWIW.



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From: bbarclay@ca.ibm.com                               10-Sep-99 12:15:13
  To: All                                               10-Sep-99 17:01:24
Subj: Re: Sun to proliferate Star Office... (Open source perspective)

From: Brad BARCLAY <bbarclay@ca.ibm.com>

"Steven C. Den Beste" wrote:
> You presume too much. MS is not going to have to explain anything.
> 
> http://www.builder.com/Authoring/Xml20/ss10.html
> "CEO Bill Gates has stated publicly that future versions of Microsoft Office
> will support XML, and the company also plans to support the standard in
> email packages and XML-authoring tools."
> 
> Microsoft actually announced that about a year ago. Since that time,
> Office2000 has been released. It supports XML, read AND write.
> 
> So what's to explain?

	Steven - do you know if Microsoft has a seperate DTD document
describing the XML tags that it supports, or are they doing an inline
DTD?

	So long as their XML is to spec, and is both valid and well formed,
then I tihnk we have something to celebrate here, and a reason to push
veryone else to the world of XML - interoperability will become simple,
and upgrades to the file formats in new versions of products will on
longer break compatability with older documents.

Brad BARCLAY

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Posted from the OS/2 WARP v5 desktop of Brad BARCLAY.
E-Mail:  bbarclay@ca.ibm.com		Location:  2G43D@Torolabs

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From: cmkrnl@cix.compulink.co.uk                        10-Sep-99 17:42:01
  To: All                                               10-Sep-99 17:01:24
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: Greg Hennessy <cmkrnl@cix.compulink.co.uk>

On 9 Sep 1999 19:47:22 GMT, darren.winsper@easynet.co.uk (Darren
Winsper) wrote:

>I've heard good things about the Win32 builds, they even have Java up
>and running reasonably well (So it's already better than NS 4 ;) ).

Now that wouldn't be hard, it took 'em until 4.5 to make communicator
4 usable. 

greg

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From: fred.nospam.emmerich@ibm.net                      10-Sep-99 11:28:28
  To: All                                               10-Sep-99 17:01:24
Subj: Re: Stardock Releases WindowBlinds v.99 - Shuns OS/2

From: fred.nospam.emmerich@ibm.net

In <37D68B19.9E8CB24B@WarpCity.com>, on 09/08/99 
   at 09:13 AM, Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com> said:


>The OS/2 user is to be thunked for funding Stardock's 
>latest software product which only runs on a Microsoft
>operating system.

Gee, Tim, I did not know that you were so intimate with SD's
financials.  Maybe the WINDOWS software funds windows
development.  Maybe Brad funded it himself.  Or most likely,
you are just full of shit.

Guess IBM does not use anyof it's OS/2 money for Windows
development.  And apparently you don't  think it is bad that
Innoval completely pulled out of OS/2 for Windows.

Hypocrite.  Idiot.

=====================
Fred Emmerich           
fred.emmerich@ibm.net
=====================




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From: nws@rollingthunder.clara.co.uk                    10-Sep-99 17:03:02
  To: All                                               10-Sep-99 17:01:24
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: nws@rollingthunder.clara.co.uk (Anthony Ord)

On 8 Sep 1999 06:02:51 GMT, darren.winsper@easynet.co.uk (Darren Winsper)
wrote:

>On Tue, 07 Sep 1999 20:36:36 +0100, Greg Hennessy
><cmkrnl@cix.compulink.co.uk> wrote:
>> IE5 is solid. I stopped using Netscape after nearly 5 years because of
>> it. 
>
>You'll soon be back, Mozilla goes beta next month.  Everyone rejoice
>:)

So do you think it's worth telling Netscape about a rendering bug in the old
engine that's in NN 4.6? It only affects the windows version though.

Regards

Anthony
-- 
-----------------------------------------
| And when our worlds                   |
| They fall apart                       |
| When the walls come tumbling in       |
| Though we may deserve it              |
| It will be worth it  - Depeche Mode   |
-----------------------------------------

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From: nws@rollingthunder.clara.co.uk                    10-Sep-99 17:03:05
  To: All                                               10-Sep-99 17:01:24
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: nws@rollingthunder.clara.co.uk (Anthony Ord)

On Thu, 09 Sep 1999 08:44:04 GMT, helmar@argo-navisREMOVEME.com (Helmar
Rudolph) wrote:
>On Wed, 08 Sep 1999 04:19:33 -0500, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hobbyist_=A9?=
><hobbyist@nospam.net> wrote:
<snip>
>>Shift+left mouse click on the URL opens the URL in a new window,
>>then you hit the '2' key which brings you back to the previous
>>window, select another link and open it in it's own window, hit
>>'2' again and so on ......
>
>My favourite (and incidentally my invention, too) is
>Shift-Ctrl-Click which opens a browser window (inside the MDI) in
>the background. In practice - and now you SDI evangelists listen
>carefully ;) - this translates into this:
>
>	I go to a search engine or link listing and just S-C-click
>until I no longer want more links opened. Now while I S-C-click,
>my window with the search engine results or links ALWAYS remains
>on top, and while I skim the listing for more interesting links,
>the others open in the background just as one would expect this
>from an efficient browser.
>
>I claim to be at least 3-4, sometimes even 8-10 times faster, IOW
>I get my work done much quicker with Opera than with any other
>browser. And trust me, I DO browse a lot, mainly for my new site
>at http://www.inspiredmind.com 
>
>But this is getting off-topic now. 

First of all, nothing is off-topic in cola at least...;-) Also if any
developers for the various platforms (look at the newsgroups...) are watching,
people describing features they find useful - and more importantly - why they
are useful will be very helpful to them when creating their own programs.

It rather like those useability tests, but without the expense and the
subsequent marketing chest-beat.

>Cheers,
>
>Helmar		

Regards

Anthony
-- 
-----------------------------------------
| And when our worlds                   |
| They fall apart                       |
| When the walls come tumbling in       |
| Though we may deserve it              |
| It will be worth it  - Depeche Mode   |
-----------------------------------------

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From: lennart-remove-@plg.-remove-a.se                  10-Sep-99 17:09:17
  To: All                                               10-Sep-99 17:01:24
Subj: Time for a Warp Client

From: "Lennart Gahm" <lennart-remove-@plg.-remove-a.se>

Come on IBM, reales a new fresh OS/2 Client based on Warp 4.5.
I guess it will be lots of companies who refuses to upgrade to Windows 2000.

http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-114579.html?tag=st.cn.1fd2.
By Melanie Austria Farmer

Study: High cost for Windows 2000 transition
"The "migration" cost of a transition to the new operating system could be
steep--up to $3,100 per PC, according to a study prepared by the Gartner
Group consultancy. That will make it difficult for companies to achieve any
return on their investment for at least three years, the report says."

"Gartner compiled its estimates using a model based on a typical 2,500-user,
network-connected company. The model represents only desktop migration costs,
not "back end" server or Active Directory implementation costs. Active
Directory is a new technology included in Windows 2000 to make management of
networked users and resources easier.
Upgrade calculations include fixed costs, the cost of doing work, the cost of
bringing hardware and software up to speed (such as additional memory
requirements), and the cost of testing and software acquisition.
The desktop migration cost for a company moving to Windows 2000 from Windows
NT Workstation can cost up to $2,050 per PC, Gartner estimates. Migrating
from older versions of Windows, including Windows 95 and Windows 98, could
cost as much as $3,100 per PC."



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From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               10-Sep-99 11:13:14
  To: All                                               10-Sep-99 17:01:24
Subj: Re: Sun to proliferate Star Office... (Open source perspective)

From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste)

On Fri, 10 Sep 1999 12:15:27 -0400, Brad BARCLAY recycled some holes into
the following pattern:

>"Steven C. Den Beste" wrote:
>> You presume too much. MS is not going to have to explain anything.
>> 
>> http://www.builder.com/Authoring/Xml20/ss10.html
>> "CEO Bill Gates has stated publicly that future versions of Microsoft
Office
>> will support XML, and the company also plans to support the standard in
>> email packages and XML-authoring tools."
>> 
>> Microsoft actually announced that about a year ago. Since that time,
>> Office2000 has been released. It supports XML, read AND write.
>> 
>> So what's to explain?
>
>	Steven - do you know if Microsoft has a seperate DTD document
>describing the XML tags that it supports, or are they doing an inline
>DTD?

I don't. I'm sorry.

>	So long as their XML is to spec, and is both valid and well formed,
>then I tihnk we have something to celebrate here, and a reason to push
>veryone else to the world of XML - interoperability will become simple,
>and upgrades to the file formats in new versions of products will on
>longer break compatability with older documents.
>
>Brad BARCLAY
>
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>Posted from the OS/2 WARP v5 desktop of Brad BARCLAY.
>E-Mail:  bbarclay@ca.ibm.com		Location:  2G43D@Torolabs

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
              -- Calvin

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From: b o b h @ w a s a t c h . c o m                   10-Sep-99 12:19:28
  To: All                                               10-Sep-99 19:59:22
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: Bob Hauck <b o b h @ w a s a t c h . c o m>

Hobbyist  <hobbyist@nospam.net> writes:

> Bob Hauck <b o b h @ w a s a t c h . c o m> wrote +/- quoted :

> > > For my NT system, I use Perfect Screens to give me multiple desktop
> > > functionality,

> It works fine with SP5 and doesn't seem to have problems with the
> other apps that I run. I don't use XFeel so I can't comment on
> it. What's XFeel anyway? :)

It allows you to have the focus follow the mouse pointer rather than
having to click-and-raise-to-focus.  Like in X.  The focus behavior of
Windows really bugs me, and I guess it bugged some of MS's programmers
too as they released a tool to fix it.

The only problem I've noticed is this new focus behavior confuses
Netscape's Bookmarks.
 
-- 
 -| Bob Hauck
 -| Wasatch Communications Group
 -| http://www.wasatch.com/~bobh

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From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               10-Sep-99 11:29:14
  To: All                                               10-Sep-99 19:59:22
Subj: Re: Why NT is x86 only

From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste)

On Fri, 10 Sep 1999 07:10:13 -0400, Joseph recycled some holes into the
following pattern:

>
>
>Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
>
>> On 09 Sep 1999 21:12:43 PDT, Kim Cheung recycled some holes into the
>> following pattern:
>>
>> >On Thu, 09 Sep 1999 17:48:02 -0700, Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
>> I don't work on anything even remotely that large. Read my lips: "embedded
>> microprocessors".
>>
>> My definition of "efficient" means "approaching the maximum speed that the
>> CPU is capable of".
>
>Capable of what?

of getting computation done. What else would a computer be doing?

>> When I say that two compilers working from the same
>> source can generate binary which is efficient for two processors, I don't
>> mean that the results will operate at the same speed on those two
processors
>> so that an external observer couldn't tell their behavior apart. I mean
that
>> the results on each processor will operate at efficiency levels comparable
>> to that achieved by programs on that processor which were not written to be
>> portable. Each will operate at its own maximum productivity, though that
may
>> not match the productivity of the other.
>>
>> I have no doubt at all that many kinds of code will run faster on the IA64
>> than they do on the IA32. My point was that a single codebase which is
>> written to run on both won't be significantly slower on either than code
for
>> each written uniquely and separately.
>
>That might be true and it might not be true --- MS doesn't use one codebase
so
>with NT and W2K so the point is moot.Sun does not use one JVM codebase.

What's this got to do with NT4? I'm not talking about that. I'm *only*
talking about Win2K (alias NT5).

>> There are fairly standard ways of writing C code which yield source which
>> gives the compiler the maximum opportunity for optimization. C compilers
are
>> a very mature technology. C++ is not very far behind.
>
>That's been true for a long time.  You make a trivial case.   What hasn't
been
>true is that one codebase has been use for NT.   With respect to the topic -- 
your
>theory is still born.  What may be possible to some low degree of possibility 
is
>not true.
>
>> But the underlying architecture of the IA32 has been and remains kludgy,
>> whereas I assume Intel will have learned their lesson and the native
>> architecture of the IA64 will be orthogonal, like it ought to be.
>
>IA64 is a hybrid of PA and IA instructions -- sounds kludgy.

The primary issue for compiler efficiency is whether all or nearly all the
registers behave the same way. In the 68K family and in nearly every RISC
CPU, pretty much any operation can be done on any register. (68K diverged
from that in having D and A registers, but it was a small difference because
all the D registers behaved the same way and all the A registers acted the
same way. In National's ill-fated 32032, every register could do anything.)

In the IA32, there is inherited non-orthoganality from the 8086, which in
turn inherited it from the 8085 WAAY back in the late 1970's. Things like
the fact that the "C" register can do things that no other register can do,
or that "A" is much more powerful than any of the other registers.

What I hope, and fully expect, is that they cleaned all that up in the
native 64-bit mode of the IA64. As long as all or nearly all of the
registers behave in a common fashion and have approximately comparable
abilities, the compiler doesn't have to jump through hoops to get the right
data into the right place in order to perform the next significant operation
which is needed.

Compilers for the IA32 end up generating code with excessive amounts of
register-to-register moves because of this poor fundamental architecture.
(More than that, the IA32 simply doesn't have enough GP registers. This is a
serious drawback, also inherited indirectly from the 8080 from about 1975
via the 8085, 8086 and then lineally up the x86 family. In this day and age,
8 GP registers is a bare minimum and 16 are more desireable. [Or, perhaps, 6
and 16, leaving two bit patterns for the SP and PC.] As a result of this,
the compiler has to spend much more time in complicated code moving data to
and from memory. With more registers, temporary values can be kept in
registers, the "ultimate cache".)

>You can write 10 pages of speculative text.  Since MS uses miltuple codebases 
for
>NT and W2K, your speculation is a waste of time.

The issue is not NT4 versus Win2K, the issue is Win2K on IA32 versus Win2K
on IA64. That will consist mostly of the same source compiled for both
platforms, using compilers for those platforms which are optimized for each.
The issue under discussion is whether the resulting code will be efficient
on both platforms, within the range of what is generally considered
"efficient" for each.

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
              -- Calvin

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From: djohnson@isomedia.com                             10-Sep-99 12:00:07
  To: All                                               10-Sep-99 19:59:23
Subj: Re: Time for a Warp Client

From: "David T. Johnson" <djohnson@isomedia.com>

I have to say that I like the present OS/2 v4 client very much and would
not to see major changes in it.  My wishlist for an updated client would
be:

1) Keep the present voice navigation but update it with the latest via
voice product.

2) Provide the JFS and LVM of the WSeB server product.

3) Provide built-in USB support.

4) Kernel updates as in WSeB

The present WPS GUI is great.  Please don't "improve" it.

Lennart Gahm wrote:
> 
> Come on IBM, reales a new fresh OS/2 Client based on Warp 4.5.
> I guess it will be lots of companies who refuses to upgrade to Windows 2000.
> 
> http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-114579.html?tag=st.cn.1fd2.
> By Melanie Austria Farmer
> 
> Study: High cost for Windows 2000 transition
> "The "migration" cost of a transition to the new operating system could be
> steep--up to $3,100 per PC, according to a study prepared by the Gartner
> Group consultancy. That will make it difficult for companies to achieve any
> return on their investment for at least three years, the report says."
> 
> "Gartner compiled its estimates using a model based on a typical 2,500-user,
> network-connected company. The model represents only desktop migration
costs,
> not "back end" server or Active Directory implementation costs. Active
> Directory is a new technology included in Windows 2000 to make management of
> networked users and resources easier.
> Upgrade calculations include fixed costs, the cost of doing work, the cost
of
> bringing hardware and software up to speed (such as additional memory
> requirements), and the cost of testing and software acquisition.
> The desktop migration cost for a company moving to Windows 2000 from Windows
> NT Workstation can cost up to $2,050 per PC, Gartner estimates. Migrating
> from older versions of Windows, including Windows 95 and Windows 98, could
> cost as much as $3,100 per PC."

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From: jasper.dekeijzer@worldonline.nl                   10-Sep-99 21:24:21
  To: All                                               10-Sep-99 19:59:23
Subj: Re: OS/2 is still very much alive!!!

From: jasper <jasper.dekeijzer@worldonline.nl>

Esther,

Thanks for writing the article. This is what the OS/2 community needs!

Regards,
Jasper de Keijzer
http://home-5.worldonline.nl/~jdekeij



Esther Schindler wrote:

> On Thu, 2 Sep 1999 16:42:13, Nathan Herren <greeneggsnspam@micron.net>
> wrote:
> | Check it out.  IBM's just keeping mum about the whole thing.
>
> FWIW, the original article is posted at
> http://www.zdnet.com/sr/stories/news/0,4538,2326830,00.html



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From: jasper.dekeijzer@worldonline.nl                   10-Sep-99 21:29:14
  To: All                                               10-Sep-99 19:59:23
Subj: Who is writing about new software for OS/2?

From: jasper <jasper.dekeijzer@worldonline.nl>

In the early days of OS/2 2x, we had many places where you could find
articles about new OS/2 software. Today it is very hard to find a place
where they write about new released software for OS/2.

Does anyone know of a magazine which still comes with reviews of OS/2
sofware?

Thanks in advance,
Jasper de Keijzer.
http://home-5.worldonline.nl/~jdekeij


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From: polaris@ursaminr.demon.com.uk                     10-Sep-99 18:53:02
  To: All                                               10-Sep-99 19:59:23
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: Peter Smith <polaris@ursaminr.demon.com.uk>

In message <xuvYN9GgzykAMk6y4dBsw+EhOhRy@4ax.com>
          Hobbyist  <hobbyist@nospam.net> wrote:

> Peter Smith wrote +/- quoted :
> 
> 
> > > Finally I hear something advantageous. :) How often does someone
> > > wish to type something and they can't see what they're doing. It
> > > sounds more geeky than anything else.
> > > 
> > 
> > It's not just typing in.
> > 
> > Say for example, you're copying _some_ files from one window to another
> > window (under Windows). When you drop the files in the destination
> > window, this window pops to the front. If it obscures the source window,
> > you've then got to do _something_ to get it back.
> > 
> > With RiscOS, you can drop the files in the destination window, and keep
> > the source one at the top. So long as _some_ of the window pane is
> > showing, you can drag the files there. 
> 
> I just did what you just described with my NT system here. I opened
> clipcache which opened in front of my newsreader Agent. The clipcache
> window is smaller than Agents so the editor window for Agent is partially
> visible. I select a block of text in clipcache and drag'n'drop it into
> agent's editor. Agent's editor window didn't pop up to the front as you
> claimed it would.

Running 95OSR2 with IE5, if I have the following showing.

---------------
|             |
|             |----
|      1      |   |
|             |   |
|             |   |
---------------   |
       |     2    |
       |          |
       ------------

I want to copy selected files piecemeal from window 1 to 2. I select the
files in 1, drag them to 2. Window 2 then pops up in front, meaning I've got
to do another action to get window 1 back in front.

In Risc OS

>  
> > In addition, you can drag windows from _behind_ the stack, as though it
> > were a sheet of paper, so you can see a _bit_ of it, and then put it back
> > again. Again, without the window popping to the front.
> 
> Now *that* I cannot do. :) It offers a minor advantage but not
> significantly so.
>  

It suits the way I work better than the Windows way.

I've got 2 PCs and 1 RiscPC, and I find the Windows way of managing windows
clunky compared to Risc OS

> > OTOH, this does have _one_ disadvantage, in that it's impossible (without
> > the use of a 3rd party patch) to brind a window to the front unless its
> > title bar or resize icon can be seen.
> 
> Now that shortcoming, I couldn't tolerate and I'd not give that
> up for the advantage you stated previously.
>  

Most of the time, you find that because of the way Risc OS handles the
windows it isn't a problem, because instead of having a huge MDI window in
the way (say in the case of a graphics package), you can have all of the tool
windows jammed against one edge of the screen, the artwork at the other, and
still be able to see the desktop.

<snip>

> > > Oh? Then what happens?
> > > 
> > 
> > You reply int the newest window, close it, click on "Post" (or your local
> > equivalent!), and then you're back with fewer windows.
> 
> I do this in windows. I don't see the difference.
> 

The difference is that in Windows, all of the above are in the _same_ MDI
"big" window.

Take for example Outlook Express that came with IE5. You've got the "groups"
down the left hand side. The right hand side contains (at the top) the
threads, and at the bottom, the message (this is the default setting that I
kept because it irritated me less than the alternatives).

OK, you can have the current message in a separate window, but I personally
find this a waste of space.

The setup I have ATM is that on the top LHS, I have the groups window. Over
the top of this, I have the threads window - after all, if I'm reading a news
group, I've no desire to see what other groups I'm subscribed to, or how many
messages there are in them.

Slightly overlapping this again is the current message window. Similarly,
I've got no particular wish to see the time/date that the message was posted,
but I can still see the list of threads to the left of the message window.

And all of this time, because I've not got the MDI window in the way, I can
still see my pretty desktop background/wallpaper.

I personally find the general Window handling of Risc OS to be an order of
magnitude better than Windows.

Sure, Risc OS is not too hot under the bonnet, but ATM, the news/email
software is IMO far better than anything I've seen on Windows. I've tried
Turnpike, Eudora, Free Agent, Netscape Messenger and Outloook Express. If
anyone has suggestions, as the Ferengi say, "I'm all ears!"

TBH, it's mainly the Messenger/Newsbase combination that's making me stick
with Risc OS. It's free, powerful, has built in POP3, SMTP and NNTP servers,
and is far neater than anything else I've seen.

Peter

-- 
To reply by mail, remove the last "m" in my email address
51 things to do in a lift...
 6. On a long ride, sway side to side at the natural frequency of the lift.

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