
                   comp.os.os2.advocacy             (Usenet)

                 Saturday, 28-Aug-1999 to Friday, 03-Sep-1999

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From: andy@callan57.gtri.gatech.edu                     27-Aug-99 22:19:24
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 10:43:12
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: andy@callan57.gtri.gatech.edu ()

On Fri, 27 Aug 1999 02:03:14 GMT, Brad Wardell <bwardell@mw.mediaone.net>
wrote:
..snip...
>
>Marty's point was that the analogy given COULD be interpreted to be
>comparing Tholen to Jesus Christ.  He has never stated that his interpretion
>is the only one possible.  Whereas Dave (Based on his quoted text) seems to
>believe that his interpretation is the only interpretation possible.  Bennie
>later clarified what he meant and Marty was ready to let the point drop but
>Dave seems obsessed in trying to "prove" that Bennie's analogy was not open
>to any interpretation but his.
>
>So it really comes down to this, in the context of trying to decide whether
>Dave Tholen is a kook or not based on numbers of detractors, if someone says
>"Well, Jesus Christ had a lot of detractors too." is it really unreasonable
>that some people might interpret this to mean that Dave's writing are wise
>and profound and that his detractors are really equivalent to a mindless
>mob?  [Note, Interpretation #1]
>
>I would argue that the above interpretation is the logical one to conclude
>until Bennie clarified because his actual intended meaning was:
>
When I read Marty's interpretation, I thought "that's not very reasonable", so
I was predisposed to accept RJ and Dave's line of reasoning.  I still
believe that way.

..snip...

>Brad
>

Regards,

Andy

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         28-Aug-99 03:29:23
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 10:43:12
Subj: Re: 5 hours left [no text]

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Marty writes:

> 

Was that really necessary, Marty?

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From: blnelson@visi.net                                 28-Aug-99 03:34:02
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 10:43:12
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [rhetorical]

From: Bennie Nelson <blnelson@visi.net>

Brad Wardell wrote:
> 
> <jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens)> wrote in message
> news:L9BY9tzSDwrQ-pn2-FhxBXYHYNROK@localhost...
> > On Wed, 25 Aug 1999 18:42:44, rerbert@wxs.nl (Gerben Bergman) wrote:
> >
> > > Whilst modeming naked, jansens_at_ibm_dot_net replied thusly:
> > >
> > > | > Did Dave's deletion tactic also catch your eye?  How about him
> calling
> > > | > me a hypocrite for deleting 50% of his message because I was too
> weary
> > > | > to answer?  Is deleting half of a sentence and shoving the other
> half in
> > > | > your opponent's face over and over the same as deleting full
> paragraphs
> > > | > and not responding to them?
> > > |
> > > | Um. Sorry. I'm rather busy at the mo, so I just skim over the group.
> > > | Have fun fighting it out, though...
> > >
> > > Karel, you strike me as a pretty down-to-Earth guy. But if you're going
> to
> > > defend Dave, you're also going to have to inform yourself of those
> things
> > > about him which his detractors find objectionable. Take his latest
> tactic
> > > for instance:
> > >
> > One of the (lesser important) things I'm busy with (well, not really,
> > actually, but it's on my list) is checking Deja to get confirmation on
> > some of the stuff that has been going on. Apparently it's impossible
> > to talk to someone in this group without taking a position in stuff
> > that happened years ago.
> >
> > And another thing: why am I always supposed to defend Dave Tholen? The
> > only thing I ever said about it was that I find him a pretty cool guy
> > to talk to. What happened was that I almost immediately got the
> > "apostate-treatment". It is apparently "not done" to like talking with
> > Dave Tholen. Sheesh.
> >
> > > Marty makes an "if -> then" statement. In his reply, Dave first deletes
> the
> > > "if" part, and then proceeds to use the "then" part as evidence of Marty
> > > contradicting himself. Do you see the problem with that? If you were to
> say
> > > "if the Earth is flat, then I'm Donald Duck" and I were to debate the
> way
> > > Dave does, I'd respond like this:
> > >
> > >  How ironic, coming from someone who claimed to be Donald Duck:
> > > ’
> > >  KJ] I'm Donald Duck.
> > >
> > > Now, did you claim that you were Donald Duck? Of course not. For you to
> do
> > > so the Earth would have to be flat first, which you know damned well
> isn't
> > > the case. So tell me, was I debating in a logical fashion here? Or was I
> > > merely twisting your words in order to be antagonistic?
> > >
> > OK, believe me or not, but I haven't been following this thread (the
> > analogy-syllogism stuck in my mind and kept me awake). But I can tell
> > you this: _if_ that is what happened, it was not nice (of course,
> > playing Devil's advocate, even a highly unlikely claim is still a
> > claim: if tomorrow by some cosmic misfortune we're living on a
> > pancake, you can call me Donald and I'll quack back. Even worse, if I
> > really _did_ believe the Earth was flat, my claim would be valid
> > immediately), but what exactly do you want me to do now? Jump into a
> > debate I haven't been following and start calling Dave names because
> > the rest of you want me to? Never talk to Dave Tholen again, unless to
> > flame him on first sight? Start using Windows?
> >
> > So you people don't like Dave Tholen? Did any of you even _try_ to
> > find out why he started reacting in such a defensive manner? And how
> > about that bunch of idiots that will reply to each and every post of
> > his with some insult, no matter how valid the point he makes is?
> > That's normal behaviour?
> >
> 
> You make the assumption that one fine day in some time in the past Dave was
> this normal guy who was suddenly assaulted on-line or something (or some
> other reason).  The fact is, as long as most people have been hanging around
> here, he's been a jerk and continues to be a jerk.  And he seems to go way
> out of his way to make sure people know just how big of a jerk he is.  I had
> no qualms with Tholen myself until 2 years ago in the middle of a rather
> constructive discussion on what OS/2 ISVs should do he decided to sidetrack
> the entire discussion on whether I actually meant "banks don't buy third
> party OS/2 software" as the very literal statement - no banks have ever
> bought *any* OS/2 software.  Despite me clarfying it to him numerous times,
> he still chose to hang onto that statement.  What annoyed me was that like
> some sort of parasitic virus, he took what was an interesting discussion and
> changed it into a semantical argument about what banks purchase.
> 
> It's not much different than Bennie's Christ analogy.  Bennie's analogy
> could be interpreted to mean that Tholen is like a christ figure and the
> rest of us are just a mindless murderous mob.  Bennie has clarified what he
> meant and that's fine and most people have let it drop.  But Tholen would
> continue to go year after year on his statement.

Brad,
You are obviously among those that have not let it drop.  You are still
repeating the flawed argument that my analogy could have been interpreted
as saying that Tholen is some Christ figure.

Actually, given the word choices I made for that analogy, it applies
to you, as well.  And, I meant it to apply to you and the others in cooa
who've been the target of flame fests.  You've been the target of some 
pretty nasty flames.  I didn't approve of those, at the time, or now.  
Furthermore, I have not allowed the posts from your detractors to 
influence my opinion of you.  


Regards,
Bennie Nelson


> 
> The difference between Tholen and his detractors when it comes to being
> insulting is that Tholen's obnoxiousness is hundreds of lines long whereas
> his detractors who insult him do it in a single sentence.  I'd say his
> detractors are simply more efficient.
> 
> Karel, I respect your opinion and I totally understand the need to be "fair"
> and that there are always "2 sides to every story" but many times in reality
> (as I'm sure you know) there are people who are disliked because they
> deserve to be disliked.  It's quite unlike the Star Trek universe where no
> one is really "evil", just misunderstood.  Tholen isn't misunderstood, he's
> an obnoxious jerk who goes out of his way to get on people's nerves and
> hijack meaningful discussions.  Sure, there's some tiny percentage of
> newbies and crackpots who look to him as a keeper of the faith but the
> simple fact is, he has created the situation he's in -- universally despised
> because of his own behavior.
> 
> > Karel Jansens
> 
> Brad

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From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               27-Aug-99 23:38:07
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 10:43:12
Subj: Re: 2.5 hours left [no text]

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

 

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From: blnelson@visi.net                                 28-Aug-99 03:44:25
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 10:43:12
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [rhetorical]

From: Bennie Nelson <blnelson@visi.net>

Marty wrote:
> 
> Dave Tholen wrote:
> >
> > Bennie discovered the same thing.
> 
> Funny thing Dave... Ever notice how Bennie has been <really quiet> lately?
> How then could you see evidence that he has "discovered" anything?  Perhaps
> he is reconsidering his position of neutrality.

I was on travel taking a System Admin class for Sun Solaris 2.7.  

I'm amazed at the "legs this dog" has.  I didn't know this argument would
still be going so strongly.

So it goes...


Bennie Nelson

> 
> > If you're not on the side of the so-called "detractors", you're opening
> > yourself to the same sorts of attacks from them.
> 
> Am I a "detractor" Dave?  I was attempting to defend my interpretation and
> had no prior interest in you personally.  Your dirty tactics and
> name-calling have brought about responses from me.  I do not seek you out
> in other newsgroups or even in other threads.  If you do not consider me a
> "detractor" a simple answer of "No" will do here just fine and I'll drop
> this topic.
> 
> > > But I can tell you this: _if_ that is what happened, it was not nice
> >
> > It's not nice to continue to ignore a premise that has already been
> > established.
> 
> How ironic.
> 
> - Marty

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         28-Aug-99 03:39:08
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 10:43:12
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Andy Henshaw writes:

>>> Marty wrote:

>>>>> I may have to rescind my vote on the Dave and Marty sub-debate.  Giving
>>>>> a quick scan to the more recent posts indicates that there may
>>>>> have been some spurious debating tactics employed.  I don't see
>>>>> any problems with my RJ vs Marty decision, however. David Sutherland vs
>>>>> RJ decision still stands, also.

>>>> I appreciate your candor as an impartial third party.

>>> Well, I'm probably not impartial.  I'm just voting.  Sometimes it
>>> seems that these arguments go on and on, because the participants
>>> feel that there is an audience that hasn't made up its mind.

>> Actually, they go on and on because people like Marty don't understand
>> the explanation of their illogic.  Did you notice how Marty never
>> addressed ny apples and bananas example?

> I believe so - but I might have missed something.

In this case you didn't, given that he didn't address my example.

>>> So I thought that there should be a little feedback.

>> Feedback about what you might have to do isn't very useful.

> I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean by that. Could you clarify
> or elaborate.

You wrote:

AH] I may have to rescind my vote on the Dave and Marty sub-debate.

Note your use of "may have to".

> What I meant was that, I had made up my mind, so I was casting a vote
> - providing feedback.

But you then stated that you "may have to" rescind your vote.

> BTW, I had made up my mind on your's and RJ's earlier arguments against
> Marty.  I rescinded my vote

You only said that you "may have to", which is what I found to be not
very useful.

> because the ongoing argument had gone further then I had been able to
> follow.

Actually, it had mostly gone in circles, with Marty denying his
inconsistency and me reproducing quotations that demonstrate his
inconsistency.

> I believe that rescinded was an incorrect term.

It doesn't really matter, because readers can't even be sure you've
done that, given your use of "may have to", which doesn't mean that
you have (or have not, for that matter).

> I should have just stood by my earlier position and then excused
> myself from commenting on the rest of the debate.  It got to be too
> much for me to follow, so I just skipped over it.

Does that mean you may have to rescind the rescindment that you might
have had to do?

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         28-Aug-99 03:43:26
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 10:43:12
Subj: Re: 2.5 hours left [no text]

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Marty writes:

> 

Does that reset the clock again?

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From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               28-Aug-99 00:00:10
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 10:43:12
Subj: Re: 2 hours left [no text]

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

 

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         28-Aug-99 03:56:19
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 10:43:12
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [rhetorical]

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Jim "little boy" Stuyck writes:

> Dave "Wedgie Boy"  Tholen wrote:

Still keeping up with the unreasonable invective, I see.

>> Jim "little boy" Stuyck writes:

>>> Dave "Wedgie Boy" Tholen wrote:

>> Still keeping up with the unreasonable invective, I see.

> Where?

In the remark to which I responded, Stuyck (little boy).

> I don't see any "unreasonable invective."

Open your eyes, Stuyck (little boy).

> I've already demonstrated that any "descriptions" are subjective,
>  reasonable, and agreed to by the overwhelming majority.

No you haven't.  You simply expect readers to believe your
unsubstantiated claims.

>>>> Was Jim Stuyck being "reasonable" when he described my picture
>>>> as being taken while I was being given a "wedgie"?

>>> Given that "descriptions" are subjective, then in the opinion of those
>>> that have commented on my description, the answer is an overwhelming
>>> "yes!"

>> You haven't heard all the comments that people made on your description,
>> Stuyck (little boy), thus your conclusion is premature.

> Unresponsive.

Open your eyes to see my responsiveness, Stuyck (little boy).

> The discourse is about a reasonable description of
> Dave "Wedgie Boy" Tholen.

You're erroneously presupposing that the description is "reasonable",
Stuyck (little boy).

>>> Feel free to quote those that have voiced an alternative opinion of
>>> you as depicted in that picture, if you think you can.

>> Here's a one-word quote from someone here about you:  "jerk".

> Note:  No response,

Open your eyes to see my response, Stuyck (little boy).

> no "evidence,"

Open your eyes to see the evidence, Stuyck (little boy).

> just a deflection.

More like an alternative opinion of you.

> It figures.

Yes, it figures that you would ignore the evidence.

> By the way, if "jerk" is the worst someone (and I note you indicate
> only "one") can say about me, great.

The key word here is "if".

> You can also call me "grandfather"

You're not my grandfather.

> (that "it's a girl" thing really got to you, 'eh?).

What makes you think that evidence for your own irrelevant postings
"got to me", Stuyck (little boy)?

>>> Besides, you've as much as admitted that you went through school on the
>>> receiving end of wedgies administerd by athletes to nerds.

>> Where is that alleged admission, Stuyck (little boy)?

> In your prior post.

Care to reproduce the alleged admission, Stuyck (little boy)?

> You recall, don't you?

I can't recall something that didn't happen, Stuyck (little boy).

> Whining about the athletes giving the less-athletic wedgies.

You're erroneously presupposing such an occurrence.

>>> Why do you take such great offense at that description?

>> Where did I indicate "great offense"?  It's incorrect, and I correct
>> misinformation here.

> If you didn't take "great offense," then why did you bring it back as a
> topic?

Having more reading comprehension problems, Stuyck (little boy)?  The
answer is already up there:

DT] It's incorrect, and I correct misinformation here.

> And I gave you a chance, above, to "correct misinformation"
> and you passed on that chance.

Where is the alleged missed opportunity, Stuyck (little boy)?

> Why am I not surprised?

You're erroneously presupposing the existence of some passed chance
above.

> Oh, I forgot, you typically reply with "lies and misinformation."

Yet another Stuyck (little boy) lie.

>>> A little ridicule here and there is great fun, don't you agree?

>> No.

> Why is that?

Because it isn't.

> Don't you appreciate some of the better-known stand-up comics?

You're erroneously presupposing that they all need to rely on the
sort of ridicule that you do, Stuyck (little boy).

> Rickles?  Mark Lane?  Ann Richards ("Poor George, he was born with
> a silver foot in his mouth.")?  Any reference to "Tricky Dicky"?
> Any reference to "Wimp City"?

You have a peculiar sense of humor, Stuyck (little boy), but it
looks like you're simply trying to rationalize your own unreasonable
behavior.

>>> Have you seen the cartoons printed on the editorial pages of
>>> newspapers?

>> Typical inappropriate analogy, as this newsgroup is not a newspaper's
>> editorial page.

> "Inappropriate analogy?"

Having more reading comprehension problems, Stuyck (little boy)?

> My gosh, since when is "advocacy" not analogous to what you read
> on a newspaper's editorial page?

Your sort of beavior wouldn't get past the censors.

> You really ought to invest in a dictionary

I did so long ago.

> and take a course in logic.

I also did that long ago, Stuyck (little boy).  You should practice
what you preach.

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From: bwardell@mw.mediaone.net                          28-Aug-99 04:11:14
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 10:43:12
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: "Brad Wardell" <bwardell@mw.mediaone.net>

Bennie Nelson <blnelson@visi.net> wrote in message
news:37C753E2.6AF457FF@visi.net...
> Brad Wardell wrote:
> >
> > <andy@callan57.gtri.gatech.edu> wrote in message
> > news:slrn7sbo5p.1e6.andy@callan57.gtri.gatech.edu...
> > > On Thu, 26 Aug 1999 14:14:35 GMT, Brad Wardell
<bwardell@mw.mediaone.net>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > ><andy@callan57.gtri.gatech.edu> wrote in message
> > > >news:slrn7s9cir.rh.andy@callan57.gtri.gatech.edu...
> > > >> If anyone is interested in an opinion from a lurker:
> > > ..snip...
> > > >>
> > > >> Since I'm giving my opinion, I'll also point out that RJ and Dave
> > > >> have beaten Marty in their sub-debate.
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >You give a reason why you think David "won" his debate but you don't
even
> > > >provide a single reason why you think RJ and Dave have beaten Marty
on
> > their
> > > >sub-debate.  Do you even know what they're debating?
> > > >
> > > >Brad
> > > >
> > > I believe so.  In the sub-debate that I was referring to, Marty
> > >  seems to feel that Dave was being compared to
> > > Jesus Christ and that this particular comparison is important. RJ and
> > > Dave seem to be contending that the Jesus Christ reference was not the
> > > important part of the original argument.
> > >
> > > I could give reasons why I prefer RJ and Dave's argument, but it would
> > > take much longer than the short reason I gave for David Sutherland's
> > > position.  I didn't intend to participate in either debate, I was just
> > > voting.
> > >
> >
> > Marty's point was that the analogy given COULD be interpreted to be
> > comparing Tholen to Jesus Christ.  He has never stated that his
interpretion
> > is the only one possible.  Whereas Dave (Based on his quoted text) seems
to
> > believe that his interpretation is the only interpretation possible.
Bennie
> > later clarified what he meant and Marty was ready to let the point drop
but
> > Dave seems obsessed in trying to "prove" that Bennie's analogy was not
open
> > to any interpretation but his.
> >
> > So it really comes down to this, in the context of trying to decide
whether
> > Dave Tholen is a kook or not based on numbers of detractors, if someone
says
> > "Well, Jesus Christ had a lot of detractors too." is it really
unreasonable
> > that some people might interpret this to mean that Dave's writing are
wise
> > and profound and that his detractors are really equivalent to a mindless
> > mob?  [Note, Interpretation #1]
> >
> > I would argue that the above interpretation is the logical one to
conclude
> > until Bennie clarified because his actual intended meaning was:
> >
> > You cannot conclude people are kooks and other kinds of undesirables
based
> > on having a large detractor to supporter ratio because there are
examples in
> > history of people who had a lot of detractors who we agree now weren't
kooks
> > or undesirables. [Note, Interpretation #2]
> >
> > However, this analogy is flawed because of two primary reasons:
> >
> > 1) His example, Jesus Christ (and another given later Copernicus) were
> > people who were hated because of a specific idea they were preaching.
> > Tholen, by contrast, is disliked because of his behavior.  He isn't
trying
> > to spread a particular idea or belief.
> >
> > and
> >
> > 2) The whole system of consensus is predicated on giving weight to the
> > verdicts of society or at least the majority group.  If we did not judge
> > people to be undesirables based on having a large detractor to supporter
> > ratio then the entire US criminal justice system (trial by a jury of
your
> > peers) would not function.  Or in short, generally speaking, if someone
has
> > a large number of detractors in ratio to the number of supporters, then
odds
> > are there's a reason for valid reason for it.
>
> Brad,
> You've made a gross error here.  The American Experiment takes into
account
> the long history of man's inhumanity to man, and especially, the tyranny
of
> the majority.  The Founding Fathers of the American Republic chose a
Republican
> form of government specifically to address the overwhelming tendencey of
the
> majority to be wrong.  The Electoral College, the division of power into
five
> parts (the People, the States, the Executive Branch, the Congress, and the
> Federal Judiciary), and the Judicial appeals process are all aimed at
preventing
> the rights of individuals from being abbrogated or taken away.
>

You are confusing rights with verdicts.  Dave Tholen has the right to be a
jerk.  But he is still a jerk.  No one is disputing his right to be a jerk.

> What you have described is a democracy: which can be summed up as three
> wolves and one sheep voting about what's for lunch.
>

If a dozen people in a room think Bob's a jerk and only 2 think he's not a
jerk the odds are Bob is a jerk.  And in Tholen's case, it's probably more
like a couple hundred to 1 (given that literally hundreds of people voted
him Kook of the Month -- that's a lot of people!) and the number of people
who could be considered "Supporters" are very small.  Even Karel and you
claim neutrality -- i.e. you may not be detractors but you are claiming not
to be supporters.

You won't get very far in life if you don't make judgement calls purely
because exceptions to a given rule exist.

Over on comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic people are saying that Tiberium Sun
(C&C 2) is a disappointment and describe why.  A couple of people are saying
it's great but it's like a 10 to 1 ratio or so.  I do not need to go and buy
it to conclude that if I did buy it, I would probably be disappointed with
it.  There exist in history exceptions -- that is, games that most people
have loathed that I have liked but they are just that -- exceptions.

That is why your analogy is flawed because society doesn't work as you
prescribe it should (and thankfully it doesn't).  Simply because Jesus
Christ in hindsight did not turn out to be deserving of the hatred he
received at the time is not proof that having a large detractor to supporter
ratio is not indicative that the person deserves the scorn they receive.

Hence, with those obvious flaws in your analogy, other possible
interpretations become more likely.

But simply put, obviously your analogy could be interepreted to mean other
things than you intended simply because people did interpret it differently.
After you clarified what you meant by it, that becomes a different story but
up until that point, multiple interpretations were obviously possible.
Hence, Dave's argument that only one interpretation was possible is in
error.

But again, do not confuse rights with consensus.  I would be the first one
to argue that Dave has every right to act like the ass he does on-line.

Brad

> Regards,
> Bennie Nelson
>
>
> >
> > ...THEREFORE...
> >
> > Many people, including Marty probably, quickly saw the flaws in
> > interpretation #2 and made the conclusion that Bennie must be meaning
that
> > Tholen might be some sort of misunderstood figure who if not Christ-like
> > will surely be vindicated in the end.
> >
> > Tholen's whole argument rests on that there was only 1 possible
> > interpretation of Bennie's analogy [#2] when in fact multiple
> > interpretations were possible.
>
> In an exchange of ideas, words are necessary.  The words I chose
> expressed my meaning.  If someone is interested in ideas, and
> specifically, what it is I am trying to communicate, then that
> hearer or reader will want to know what I meant by the words I
> chose.  What someone else would try to say using the same words
> is irrelevant to my meaning.
>
> Regards,
> Bennie Nelson
>
>
> "The purpose of language is to obfuscate meaning."  Calvin and Hobbes
>
> >
> > Brad
> >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Andy Henshaw
> > >


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         28-Aug-99 04:02:26
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 10:43:13
Subj: Re: 2 hours left [no text]

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Marty writes:

> 

Resetting the clock again, Marty?

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         28-Aug-99 04:02:13
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 10:43:13
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [rhetorical]

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Gerben Bergman writes:

> Karel Jansens wrote:

>> Conclusion: I like Dave; you don't. Fine. Fight me over anything you want,
>> but NOT over my opinion of another person.

> I get the impression that you somehow feel I "attacked" you by pointing out
> why people in this newsgroup don't like Dave.

In your next sentence, you call Karel's perspective "biased".  Karel
might have considered that an "attack".

> As far as I'm concerned that was never the issue; I was only trying to
> bring a little balance to your biased perspective

On what basis do you claim that Karel's perspective is biased, Gerben?

> by pitching it against *my* biased perspective.

The perspective of one who has admitted to playing "infantile games" in
this newsgroup.

>> I will criticize _anybody_ if I feel they're in error of some kind. What I
>> try very hard not to do is attack people because of what they think of
>> someone else, no matter how illogical or biased or even stupid I may find
>> their opinion of that person.

> I didn't attack you, Karel. See above for clarification.

You called his perspective "biased".  Karel might have considered that an
"attack".

>>> If I had to pick one, it'd have to be the first (someone who has "some
beef"
>>> with Dave). I don't like what he does to people, I loathe his attitude,
and
>>> I feel he deserves most of the abuse he receives.
 
>> Well, I don't. There you go. What're you gonna do, eh?

> Not a lot of anything. You don't agree with me, fine, case closed.

Then why do you continue to post, Gerben?

>>> On what basis do you make that claim? (See? It's easy!)
 
>> Of course it's easy, when about ten idiots give you all the examples you
>> need.

> Who are these "idiots", Karel? (I can keep this up longer than you can...)

From someone who called the case closed?

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From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               28-Aug-99 00:21:02
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 10:43:13
Subj: Re: 1.66 hours left [no text]

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

 

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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From: bwardell@mw.mediaone.net                          28-Aug-99 04:23:24
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 10:43:13
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [rhetorical]

From: "Brad Wardell" <bwardell@mw.mediaone.net>

Bennie Nelson <blnelson@visi.net> wrote in message
news:37C758C3.7838AF3F@visi.net...
> Brad Wardell wrote:
> >
> > <jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens)> wrote in message
> > news:L9BY9tzSDwrQ-pn2-FhxBXYHYNROK@localhost...
> > > On Wed, 25 Aug 1999 18:42:44, rerbert@wxs.nl (Gerben Bergman) wrote:
> > >
> > > > Whilst modeming naked, jansens_at_ibm_dot_net replied thusly:
> > > >
> > > > | > Did Dave's deletion tactic also catch your eye?  How about him
> > calling
> > > > | > me a hypocrite for deleting 50% of his message because I was too
> > weary
> > > > | > to answer?  Is deleting half of a sentence and shoving the other
> > half in
> > > > | > your opponent's face over and over the same as deleting full
> > paragraphs
> > > > | > and not responding to them?
> > > > |
> > > > | Um. Sorry. I'm rather busy at the mo, so I just skim over the
group.
> > > > | Have fun fighting it out, though...
> > > >
> > > > Karel, you strike me as a pretty down-to-Earth guy. But if you're
going
> > to
> > > > defend Dave, you're also going to have to inform yourself of those
> > things
> > > > about him which his detractors find objectionable. Take his latest
> > tactic
> > > > for instance:
> > > >
> > > One of the (lesser important) things I'm busy with (well, not really,
> > > actually, but it's on my list) is checking Deja to get confirmation on
> > > some of the stuff that has been going on. Apparently it's impossible
> > > to talk to someone in this group without taking a position in stuff
> > > that happened years ago.
> > >
> > > And another thing: why am I always supposed to defend Dave Tholen? The
> > > only thing I ever said about it was that I find him a pretty cool guy
> > > to talk to. What happened was that I almost immediately got the
> > > "apostate-treatment". It is apparently "not done" to like talking with
> > > Dave Tholen. Sheesh.
> > >
> > > > Marty makes an "if -> then" statement. In his reply, Dave first
deletes
> > the
> > > > "if" part, and then proceeds to use the "then" part as evidence of
Marty
> > > > contradicting himself. Do you see the problem with that? If you were
to
> > say
> > > > "if the Earth is flat, then I'm Donald Duck" and I were to debate
the
> > way
> > > > Dave does, I'd respond like this:
> > > >
> > > > ’ How ironic, coming from someone who claimed to be Donald Duck:
> > > > ’
> > > > ’ KJ] I'm Donald Duck.
> > > >
> > > > Now, did you claim that you were Donald Duck? Of course not. For you
to
> > do
> > > > so the Earth would have to be flat first, which you know damned well
> > isn't
> > > > the case. So tell me, was I debating in a logical fashion here? Or
was I
> > > > merely twisting your words in order to be antagonistic?
> > > >
> > > OK, believe me or not, but I haven't been following this thread (the
> > > analogy-syllogism stuck in my mind and kept me awake). But I can tell
> > > you this: _if_ that is what happened, it was not nice (of course,
> > > playing Devil's advocate, even a highly unlikely claim is still a
> > > claim: if tomorrow by some cosmic misfortune we're living on a
> > > pancake, you can call me Donald and I'll quack back. Even worse, if I
> > > really _did_ believe the Earth was flat, my claim would be valid
> > > immediately), but what exactly do you want me to do now? Jump into a
> > > debate I haven't been following and start calling Dave names because
> > > the rest of you want me to? Never talk to Dave Tholen again, unless to
> > > flame him on first sight? Start using Windows?
> > >
> > > So you people don't like Dave Tholen? Did any of you even _try_ to
> > > find out why he started reacting in such a defensive manner? And how
> > > about that bunch of idiots that will reply to each and every post of
> > > his with some insult, no matter how valid the point he makes is?
> > > That's normal behaviour?
> > >
> >
> > You make the assumption that one fine day in some time in the past Dave
was
> > this normal guy who was suddenly assaulted on-line or something (or some

> > other reason).  The fact is, as long as most people have been hanging
around
> > here, he's been a jerk and continues to be a jerk.  And he seems to go
way
> > out of his way to make sure people know just how big of a jerk he is.  I
had
> > no qualms with Tholen myself until 2 years ago in the middle of a rather
> > constructive discussion on what OS/2 ISVs should do he decided to
sidetrack
> > the entire discussion on whether I actually meant "banks don't buy third
> > party OS/2 software" as the very literal statement - no banks have ever
> > bought *any* OS/2 software.  Despite me clarfying it to him numerous
times,
> > he still chose to hang onto that statement.  What annoyed me was that
like
> > some sort of parasitic virus, he took what was an interesting discussion
and
> > changed it into a semantical argument about what banks purchase.
> >
> > It's not much different than Bennie's Christ analogy.  Bennie's analogy
> > could be interpreted to mean that Tholen is like a christ figure and the
> > rest of us are just a mindless murderous mob.  Bennie has clarified what
he
> > meant and that's fine and most people have let it drop.  But Tholen
would
> > continue to go year after year on his statement.
>
> Brad,
> You are obviously among those that have not let it drop.  You are still
> repeating the flawed argument that my analogy could have been interpreted
> as saying that Tholen is some Christ figure.
>

It is not a "flawed argument" at all.  Your analogy could have been
interpreted that way and the proof is simply that people did.  Simply
because that was not your intention does not mean that it didn't happen.

Similarly, my statement in the context of making money on OS/2 of "banks
don't buy third party OS/2 software" was meant as a generalization but
obviously it COULD be taken as a literal universal statement because Tholen
took it that way.  What makes Tholen obnoxious is that even to this day,
despite god knows how many clarifications by mean and others her persists in
demanding people believe that I meant my statement as he originally took
it -- i.e. there was only ONE valid interpretation of my statement back in
1997 -- his.  In Tholen's academia world, he might be able to get away with
that but in real life, many people come away with different interpretations
or opinions on something and you know what?  Multiple opinons or
interpretations of something can be valid in the absence of clarification
(and remember, Marty was talking about his original pre-clarification
interpretation).

You can safely say that those who interpreted it differently than you
intended misunderstood what you were trying to say but there's no argument
"flawed" or non-flawed about it.  People interpreted your analogy in
multiple ways -- therefore your analogy was obviously not clear until your
clarification.

Dave and Marty's argument is purely about your pre-clarication analogy.
Marty took your analogy to mean something other than you intended.  It's not
an "error" on his part or your part, it's just a matter of interpreting
something differently.  People do it all the time.

> Actually, given the word choices I made for that analogy, it applies
> to you, as well.  And, I meant it to apply to you and the others in cooa
> who've been the target of flame fests.  You've been the target of some
> pretty nasty flames.  I didn't approve of those, at the time, or now.
> Furthermore, I have not allowed the posts from your detractors to
> influence my opinion of you.
>

It's still irrelevant, whether you replace me with Tholen.  However, I think
you would be hard (very hard) pressed to demonstrate that the ratio of
supporters to detractors is even remotely towards more detractors than
supporters.    It's a long distance between showing that someone isn't
universally admired and showing that they are generally despised.   I think
any normal person is going to conclude based on the evidence that generally
speaking, people who deal with Tholen on-line do not like him.  That's not
the same as saying that everyone despises him but clearly enough to get him
voted Kook of the Month twice and that a huge percentage of the people
posting to him on different news groups are flaming him.

Given the participants in your discussion, it would be absurd to think that
you were meaning anyone but Tholen.  No one but Tholen on this news group
that was participating even remotely has what one could consider a
significant group of detractors.

Brad

>
> Regards,
> Bennie Nelson
>
>
> >
> > The difference between Tholen and his detractors when it comes to being
> > insulting is that Tholen's obnoxiousness is hundreds of lines long
whereas
> > his detractors who insult him do it in a single sentence.  I'd say his
> > detractors are simply more efficient.
> >
> > Karel, I respect your opinion and I totally understand the need to be
"fair"
> > and that there are always "2 sides to every story" but many times in
reality
> > (as I'm sure you know) there are people who are disliked because they
> > deserve to be disliked.  It's quite unlike the Star Trek universe where
no
> > one is really "evil", just misunderstood.  Tholen isn't misunderstood,
he's
> > an obnoxious jerk who goes out of his way to get on people's nerves and
> > hijack meaningful discussions.  Sure, there's some tiny percentage of
> > newbies and crackpots who look to him as a keeper of the faith but the
> > simple fact is, he has created the situation he's in -- universally
despised
> > because of his own behavior.
> >
> > > Karel Jansens
> >
> > Brad


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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         28-Aug-99 04:10:10
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 10:43:13
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [rhetorical]

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Bennie Nelson writes:

> Marty wrote:
 
>> I wrote:

>>> Bennie discovered the same thing.
 
>> Funny thing Dave... Ever notice how Bennie has been <really quiet> lately?
>> How then could you see evidence that he has "discovered" anything?  Perhaps
>> he is reconsidering his position of neutrality.

> I was on travel taking a System Admin class for Sun Solaris 2.7.  

I offered a more generic possibility that is consistent with your
specific explanation.

So, any ideas while RealPlayer 5.0 might stop working following a
Solaris 2.6 to 2.7 upgrade?  There's a bug in that version that
apparently causes it to not look any farther in the path of an
environment variable if it encounters a nonexistent directory in
that path.  I encountered that bug after an upgrade from Solaris
2.5 to 2.6, but I've confirmed that all the listed directories
exist, so that's not the problem.

And to make this OS/2 related, Communicator 4.6 is supposed to support
RealAudio.  Does the OS/2 beta include a native plug-in, or is it
still using the Windows product via WINOS2?  The Windows product is
very fragile under WINOS2.  Scrolling in a telnet window causes the
sound to go into hiccup mode.  The sound will sometimes mute for no
reason.

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From: bwardell@mw.mediaone.net                          28-Aug-99 04:28:12
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 10:43:13
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: "Brad Wardell" <bwardell@mw.mediaone.net>

<andy@callan57.gtri.gatech.edu> wrote in message
news:slrn7sehq2.1ug.andy@callan57.gtri.gatech.edu...
> On Fri, 27 Aug 1999 02:03:14 GMT, Brad Wardell <bwardell@mw.mediaone.net>
wrote:
> ..snip...
> >
> >Marty's point was that the analogy given COULD be interpreted to be
> >comparing Tholen to Jesus Christ.  He has never stated that his
interpretion
> >is the only one possible.  Whereas Dave (Based on his quoted text) seems
to
> >believe that his interpretation is the only interpretation possible.
Bennie
> >later clarified what he meant and Marty was ready to let the point drop
but
> >Dave seems obsessed in trying to "prove" that Bennie's analogy was not
open
> >to any interpretation but his.
> >
> >So it really comes down to this, in the context of trying to decide
whether
> >Dave Tholen is a kook or not based on numbers of detractors, if someone
says
> >"Well, Jesus Christ had a lot of detractors too." is it really
unreasonable
> >that some people might interpret this to mean that Dave's writing are
wise
> >and profound and that his detractors are really equivalent to a mindless
> >mob?  [Note, Interpretation #1]
> >
> >I would argue that the above interpretation is the logical one to
conclude
> >until Bennie clarified because his actual intended meaning was:
> >
> When I read Marty's interpretation, I thought "that's not very
reasonable", so
> I was predisposed to accept RJ and Dave's line of reasoning.  I still
> believe that way.
>

But it all comes down to one question:

Do you agree that multiple interpretations were possible?  Not whether you
agreed with Marty's interpretation, you only need to accept (or not accept)
that Marty's interpretation was one possible interpretation.

I have argued that Bennie's analogy (before he clarified) could be
interepreted to mean multiple things.  Personally, I think it's completely
absurd to think that we can't go through life making a judgement call on
people, places and things, based on the vast majority opinon of something.

A decent counter to Bennie's analogy is simple:

I never met Adolph Hitler but I think I can conclude that he wasn't exactly
a great guy since he is so universally despised.  I am not going to take the
tact "Well, I can't judge him because there have been isolated incidents in
history of generally despised people turning out to be not bad guys at all."

What do you think?

Brad

> ..snip...
>
> >Brad
> >
>
> Regards,
>
> Andy


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From: ericb@pobox.com                                   28-Aug-99 02:28:08
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 10:43:13
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)

In article <RjJx3.3703$Tu1.150322@typhoon1.rdc-detw.rr.com>, "Brad
Wardell" <bwardell@mw.mediaone.net> wrote:


> If a dozen people in a room think Bob's a jerk and only 2 think he's not a
> jerk the odds are Bob is a jerk.  And in Tholen's case, it's probably more
> like a couple hundred to 1 (given that literally hundreds of people voted
> him Kook of the Month -- that's a lot of people!) and the number of people
> who could be considered "Supporters" are very small.  Even Karel and you
> claim neutrality -- i.e. you may not be detractors but you are claiming not
> to be supporters.

It was more like ten people who voted for him in the Usenet KOTM election.

The other poll (csma KOTM) was not well protected against vote fraud.  I
had an amusing evening playing with their vote counting system to see if I
could get around their belatedly instituted safeguards (which I did... I
was running up votes for Nathan Hughes, not Dave Tholen, but somehow I
suspect that Tholen had some overactive fans too).

-- 
Eric Bennett ( http://www.pobox.com/~ericb/ ) 
Cornell University / Chemistry & Chemical Biology

Sixty-seven percent of the doctors surveyed preferred X to Y.
(Jones couldn't be persauded.)  -John Allen Paulos

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: ericb@pobox.com                                   28-Aug-99 02:32:00
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 10:43:13
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [rhetorical]

From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)

In article <37C75B4B.9F65141E@visi.net>, Bennie Nelson <blnelson@visi.net>
wrote:

> Marty wrote:
> > 
> > Dave Tholen wrote:
> > >
> > > Bennie discovered the same thing.
> > 
> > Funny thing Dave... Ever notice how Bennie has been <really quiet> lately?
> > How then could you see evidence that he has "discovered" anything? 
Perhaps
> > he is reconsidering his position of neutrality.
> 
> I was on travel taking a System Admin class for Sun Solaris 2.7.  

Prove it, if you think you can.  

[Yes, this has established basis!  When I commented earlier this summer
that I had been out of town for the previous week, Dave came after me
trying to get me to prove it to him.  Go figure.]

-- 
Eric Bennett ( http://www.pobox.com/~ericb/ ) 
Cornell University / Chemistry & Chemical Biology

Sixty-seven percent of the doctors surveyed preferred X to Y.
(Jones couldn't be persauded.)  -John Allen Paulos

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         28-Aug-99 06:20:14
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 10:43:13
Subj: Re: 1.66 hours left [no text]

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Marty writes:

> 

The series of "no text" countdown messages is from one of the people
Brad Wardell considers "reasonable".

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From: ericb@pobox.com                                   28-Aug-99 02:34:23
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 10:43:13
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [rhetorical]

From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)

In article <7q7mlm$mlr$2@news.hawaii.edu>, tholenantispam@hawaii.edu wrote:

> Jim "little boy" Stuyck writes:
> 
> > Dave "Wedgie Boy"  Tholen wrote:
> 
> Still keeping up with the unreasonable invective, I see.
                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> >> Jim "little boy" Stuyck writes:
> 
> >>> Dave "Wedgie Boy" Tholen wrote:
> 
> >> Still keeping up with the unreasonable invective, I see.
> 
> > Where?
> 
> In the remark to which I responded, Stuyck (little boy).
                                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^
                                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^


How ironic, coming from someone who complains about "unreasonable invective".

-- 
Eric Bennett ( http://www.pobox.com/~ericb/ ) 
Cornell University / Chemistry & Chemical Biology

Sixty-seven percent of the doctors surveyed preferred X to Y.
(Jones couldn't be persauded.)  -John Allen Paulos

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         28-Aug-99 06:35:08
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 10:43:13
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Brad Wardell writes [to Bennie Nelson]:

> You are confusing rights with verdicts.

How ironic, coming from the person confusing David A. Tholen and
h.m.tholen with me.

> Dave Tholen has the right to be a jerk.

So do you, Brad.

> But he is still a jerk.

On what basis do you make that claim, Brad?  You're the one arguing
with insults.

> No one is disputing his right to be a jerk.

No one is disputing your right to be a jerk, Brad.

> If a dozen people in a room think Bob's a jerk and only 2 think he's not a
> jerk the odds are Bob is a jerk.

Illogical, Brad.  You're presupposing that the people in the room are
impartial judges, rather than consisting of people who couldn't argue
logically with me.

> And in Tholen's case, it's probably more like a couple hundred to 1

Prove it, if you think you can, Brad.

> (given that literally hundreds of people voted him Kook of the Month

Prove it, if you think you can, Brad.  Jason S. was able to generate a
mere 13 names, despite the intensity of his campaign.

> -- that's a lot of people!)

Or a very few people voting many times.

> and the number of people who could be considered "Supporters" are very
> small.

On what basis do you make that claim, Brad?  Amazing the number of
times you make unsubstantiated claims, even after recommending to
readers that they should demand evidence.

> Even Karel and you claim neutrality -- i.e. you may not be detractors
> but you are claiming not to be supporters.

Does that somehow prove that the number of supporters is "very small",
Brad?

> You won't get very far in life if you don't make judgement calls purely
> because exceptions to a given rule exist.

You won't get very far in life arguing with insults rather than logic,
Brad.

> That is why your analogy is flawed because society doesn't work as you
> prescribe it should (and thankfully it doesn't).

His analogy isn't flawed, Brad.  This newsgroup isn't "society".

> Simply because Jesus Christ in hindsight did not turn out to be deserving
> of the hatred he received at the time is not proof that having a large
> detractor to supporter ratio is not indicative that the person deserves
> the scorn they receive.

It does demonstrate that a simple reference to an unproven ratio
doesn't prove anything, Brad.

> Hence, with those obvious flaws in your analogy,

What allegedly "obvious flaws", Brad?  Do you realize how ironic that is,
coming from someone with obviously flawed arguments, such as your claim
that a URL contains mostly anti-Tholen postings in other newsgroups when
in fact it does not?

> other possible interpretations become more likely.

Marty's "other possible interpretation" is illogical, Brad, as I
demonstrated with the apples and bananas example.

> But simply put, obviously your analogy could be interepreted to mean other
> things than you intended simply because people did interpret it differently.

That doesn't mean those interpretations were logical, Brad.

> After you clarified what you meant by it, that becomes a different story

Yet Marty still believed that his interpretation is the correct
interpretation.

> but up until that point, multiple interpretations were obviously possible.

Though not necessarily logical.

> Hence, Dave's argument that only one interpretation was possible is in
> error.

Where did I allegedly make that argument, Brad?  Care to substantiate
your claim?

> But again, do not confuse rights with consensus.  I would be the first one
> to argue that Dave has every right to act like the ass he does on-line.

And you have the right to do the same, Brad.  But I'd be careful with those
lies of yours.  They could get you in trouble some day.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         28-Aug-99 06:43:04
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 10:43:13
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Brad Wardell writes [to Andy Henshaw]:

> But it all comes down to one question:
>
> Do you agree that multiple interpretations were possible?

That's not the question, Brad.  The question is whether Marty reached
a logical conclusion.

> Not whether you agreed with Marty's interpretation, you only need to
> accept (or not accept) that Marty's interpretation was one possible
> interpretation.

It's quite possible for someone to be illogical, Brad.  You've
demonstrated that repeatedly.  Getting Andy to agree that Marty's
interpretation was possible won't do anything to change the fact
that his interpretation is illogical.

> I have argued that Bennie's analogy (before he clarified) could be
> interepreted to mean multiple things.

I have demonstrated that Marty's interpretation, even before Bennie
made an unnecessary clarification, is illogical, despite Marty's
references to his courses in logic.

> Personally, I think it's completely absurd to think that we can't go
> through life making a judgement call on people, places and things,
> based on the vast majority opinon of something.

What you think is absurd is irrelevant, Brad.  You don't even know
what the majority opinon [sic] is in this case, given the way you
count people (namely the URL that you claimed contained mostly
anti-Tholen postings in other newsgroups).  When you can't count
correctly, you're bound to end up with invalid results.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: rjf@yyycomasia.com                                28-Aug-99 07:05:21
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 10:43:13
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [rhetorical]

From: rjf@yyycomasia.com (rj friedman)

On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 00:12:31, tholenantispam@hawaii.edu 
(Dave Tholen) wrote:

īTrackballs tend to get slippery with skins oils.

The new logitech `marble' trackballs use a better technology
(magnetism and impregnated balls) that mitigate the usual 
trackball problems. I like them a lot.



________________________________________________________

[RJ]                 OS/2 - Live it, or live with it. 
rj friedman          Team ABW              
Taipei, Taiwan       rjf@yyycomasia.com 

To send email - remove the `yyy'
________________________________________________________

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         28-Aug-99 07:07:13
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 10:43:13
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [rhetorical]

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Brad Wardell writes:

> Bennie Nelson wrote:

>> You are obviously among those that have not let it drop.  You are still
>> repeating the flawed argument that my analogy could have been interpreted
>> as saying that Tholen is some Christ figure.

> It is not a "flawed argument" at all.

Yes it is, Brad.  See my apples and bananas example for why.

> Your analogy could have been interpreted that way

That doesn't mean the interpretation is logical, Brad.

> and the proof is simply that people did.

Those people are unskilled in logic, Brad, because the people who
interpretated Bennie's statement in that way did so illogically,
as demonstrated with the apples and bananas example.

> Simply because that was not your intention does not mean that it
> didn't happen.

Irrelevant, because the issue isn't whether it happened or not, Brad,
but rather whether the interpretation is valid or not.

> Similarly, my statement in the context of making money on OS/2 of "banks
> don't buy third party OS/2 software" was meant as a generalization

You didn't write it that way, Brad.

> but obviously it COULD be taken as a literal universal statement because
> Tholen took it that way.

And it was logical to take it that way, simply because you wrote it that
way, Brad.  "Don't buy" does not mean "sometimes do buy".

> What makes Tholen obnoxious is that even to this day, despite god knows
> how many clarifications by mean and others her persists in demanding
> people believe that I meant my statement as he originally took it

I'm not demanding that people believe that, Brad.  I'm simply noting that
my interpretation of your statement is logical, based on the words you
used.  Your so-called clarification represents a different statement (one
that is also incorrect, based on the $33 million in sales by Edify).

> -- i.e. there was only ONE valid interpretation of my statement back in
> 1997 -- his.

Suddenly you're talking about valid interpretations rather than possible
interpretations!  Gee, Brad, why didn't you apply the same validity
requirement to Marty's interpretation?

> In Tholen's academia world, he might be able to get away with that but
> in real life,

Since when is academia not real life, Brad?

> many people come away with different interpretations or opinions on
> something and you know what?

Many times they do so illogically.

> Multiple opinons or interpretations of something can be valid in the
> absence of clarification

Marty's interpretation was not valid, even in the absence of
clarification.  Despite the presence of clarification, which Marty
even acknowledged, he still believes that his interpretation is the
correct interpretation.

> (and remember, Marty was talking about his original pre-clarification
> interpretation).

And also his post-clarification interpretation, Brad.

> You can safely say that those who interpreted it differently than you
> intended misunderstood what you were trying to say but there's no
> argument "flawed" or non-flawed about it.

Yes there is, Brad.  Read the apples and bananas example.

> People interpreted your analogy in multiple ways -- therefore your
> analogy was obviously not clear until your clarification.

On the contrary, it was perfectly clear even without the clarification,
Brad.  You simply had to apply some basic logic to the interpretation.

> Dave and Marty's argument is purely about your pre-clarication analogy.

Incorrect, Brad.  I've reproduced the following quotation from Marty
multiple times:

M] You said that if I still believe that my interpretation of the
M] analogy is a correct interpretation, which I do, then I need a
M] course in logic.

The above statement was made post-clarification.

> Marty took your analogy to mean something other than you intended.

Illogically.

> It's not an "error" on his part or your part,

It's an error in logic on Marty's part.

> it's just a matter of interpreting something differently.

Illogically.

> People do it all the time.

Yes, people unskilled in logic make logical errors all the time, Brad.
You've demonstrated that for us.

>> Actually, given the word choices I made for that analogy, it applies
>> to you, as well.  And, I meant it to apply to you and the others in cooa
>> who've been the target of flame fests.  You've been the target of some
>> pretty nasty flames.  I didn't approve of those, at the time, or now.
>> Furthermore, I have not allowed the posts from your detractors to
>> influence my opinion of you.

> It's still irrelevant, whether you replace me with Tholen.

Then why are you arguing over it, Brad?

> However, I think you would be hard (very hard) pressed to demonstrate
> that the ratio of supporters to detractors is even remotely towards
> more detractors than supporters.

You've not demonstrated the ratio for me, Brad.  Too hard pressed?

> It's a long distance between showing that someone isn't universally
> admired and showing that they are generally despised.

You've done neither, Brad.

> I think any normal person is going to conclude based on the evidence
> that generally speaking, people who deal with Tholen on-line do not
> like him.

What you think is irrelevant, Brad.  I've dealt with far more people
on-line than you'll ever know, thus you aren't even close to being in
a position to judge what those people "generally" think.

> That's not the same as saying that everyone despises him

Yet you've hauled out the "everybody" claim often enough.

> but clearly enough to get him voted Kook of the Month twice

Incorrect, Brad.  Unscientific, manipulated, and "tongue-in-cheek" polls
carry no weight.

> and that a huge percentage of the people posting to him on different
> news groups are flaming him.

Prove it, Brad, if you think you can.  Karel did some investigation of
his own and hasn't confirmed your claim.  I excerpted several items
from the list in the URL you provided and demonstrated how they didn't
even apply to me!  Perhaps Bennie should quote it so that you'll have
no excuse for not seeing it, should you choose to respond to a posting
containing that quotation.

> Given the participants in your discussion, it would be absurd to think
> that you were meaning anyone but Tholen.

You've been absurd in the past, Brad.  Witness the URL you provided
that supposedly contained mostly anti-Tholen postings in other
newsgroups.

> No one but Tholen on this news group that was participating even
> remotely has what one could consider a significant group of detractors.

You do, Brad.  So does Glatt.  And Sutherland as well.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: News@The-Net-4U.com                               28-Aug-99 07:25:25
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 10:43:13
Subj: Re: Java continues to splinter

From: News@The-Net-4U.com (M.P. van Dobben de Bruijn)

[ .... ]

 
> Lotus will likely have an anouncement soon. There
> is a reason why Sun and IBM have parted ways. They
> are connected at the hips with  Java but the Office Suite thin
> client battle is developing quickly. There is only one benefit for
> an OS standard and that benefit is to the monopolist.

If that standard OS is left alone by its owner and not constantly
changed in backward incompatible ways (so that our old apps
would continue to run and new functions could be added evoluti-
onary) that might very well be a benefit to all of us.

Of course the way the current OS monopolist used its power to
force payments for continuously new incompatible products from our
wallets it was not. Not to mention the headaches, disruptions etc.

The reason why Sun and IBM part on the joint development of the
MARKET for the JavaOS is as I understood that there is no use spen-
ding many dollars in marketing, pushing customers to it now they can
give those customers the same level of service with JVM's on their
currently available OS. A very sensible decision if you ask me.

Got the feeling that you were implying that IBM is looking for a 
monopolostic position in the OS-arena. Perhaps they are, I would
not know. But then in this case the "help-our-customers-move-their-
businesses" took the pole position before other considerations.

Regards from Leeuwarden
Peter van Dobben de Bruijn
---
usethenet.at.the-net-4u.com (at becomes @)
----

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: morelli@math.utah.edu                             28-Aug-99 03:00:04
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 10:43:13
Subj: Re: Java continues to splinter

From: Robert Morelli <morelli@math.utah.edu>

I only poke into this newsgroup every few months,  but every time I do
it seems that this same person Den Beste is posting something goofball
about Java,  about which he apparently knows very little.  The legal 
issue here is that a lower court found Sun's case so compelling that
it issued a preliminary injunction,  a strong move.  The appeals court
has agreed that Sun is likely to win,  but has requested that the lower court
clarify the legal grounds for the injunction.  The lower court has 21 days
to supply the clarification.  If in this time the lower court fails to 
provide a satisfactory clarification,  the injunction lapses.  If the 
injunction lapses,  MS has the right,  but not the obligation,  to revert
to a slightly altered JVM. An MS spokesman Adam Sohn has stated that even if 
the injunction lapses,  "We will continue to support (Sun's version of Java)
in 
our products, at least for now."  In any case,  according to both courts,
Sun is likely to prevail.

In a follow up post,  Den Beste draws a dire conclusion about this from the
assumption that you can only install a single JVM on a computer.  This
makes about as much sense as saying you can only install a single text editor
on a system.  Nobody with even a glancing acquaintance with Java would make
such an assumption.

For further context,  you should be aware that MS has publicly stated
recently,  
even in the midst of all this,  that it will continue to support Java because 
many of its customers need it.  This is in apparent contradiction to their
attempt in February to promote a competing technology to Java called COOL.
Most people don't even know what COOL is supposed to be.  One Windows
developer
I know who read about it said,  "Even if they delivered it today,  and it was
everything they claim it will be,  it wouldn't be interesting."  The press 
reported similar sentiments from industry analysts.  By the way,  that wasn't
the first time MS threatened to create a Java alternative but was forced
to retreat. They did this in 1996,  and even then they were soundly spanked
in the press for making the attempt.  Frankly,  I was surprised they did
abandon the attempt.  They might have had a chance if they'd committed to 
it seriously back then and been persistent.  Now,  the game's over.

In the meantime,  Sun has acheived two of its real goals with the case. 
First,
they took a gamble in exposing the inadequacies of MS's JVM.  It could have
backfired with a loss of confidence in Java.  This didn't happen and Java 
continues its rapid growth.  Second,  Sun has used the case as a pretext for
denying MS new code for recent versions of Java.  This means that MS is
falling
far behind its competitors in its level of support.  My experience with Java
developers is that this fact has had a dramatic detrimental effect on the 
use of Microsoft's Java tools.  I know a number of Java developers who work
under Windows and who own J++ (as part of Developer Studio) but who don't
even consider it a viable tool.

Finally,  an interesting news item currently on the JavaWorld site states
that:
"According to GartnerGroup, the portion of all programmers who target Windows 
as their primary development environment will fall from 65 percent in 1998 to 
40 percent in 2000."  GartnerGroup attributes this dramatic decline to the 
rising popularity of Java and Linux.




Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
> 
> "Write once, Run anywhere" took two sharp shots to the jaw in the last few
> days. Since OS/2 users are relying on portable Java as their last remaining
> hope of mainstream commercial apps in volume, this is relevant to OS/2's
> outlook.
> 
> http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?990823.pijavaos.htm
> 
> 'IBM officials confirmed Monday they have discontinued its joint development
> effort with Sun Microsystems to bring to market the JavaOS for Business, a
> thin-client operating system that was expected to be bundled with systems
> from both companies.'
> 
> 'The decision was made, in part, because of the significant performance
> improvements IBM has made to the Java virtual machine (JVM), particularly on
> the Windows platform, company officials said.'
> 
> http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,40829,00.html
> 
> 'A federal appeals court today suspended an injunction requiring Microsoft
> to make its products compatible with Sun Microsystems' Java language,
> holding that a lower court erred in finding Microsoft infringed the
> copyrights of archrival Sun.'
> 
> --------
> Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
> Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste
> 
> "My hovercraft is full of eels."

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: morelli@math.utah.edu                             28-Aug-99 03:26:05
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 10:43:13
Subj: Re: MS Losing Developers...

From: Robert Morelli <morelli@math.utah.edu>

Esther Schindler wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 12 Aug 1999 15:43:31, rjf@yyycomasia.com (rj friedman) wrote:
> 
> | For your edificationa and enjoyment,
> | here are two items ...
> 
> But RJ, I thought you didn't believe what the press said?
> 
> --Esther

I once knew a devout Christian who considered Josephus' testimony compelling 
evidence in favor of Jesus' divinity,  despite the fact that Josephus was 
non-Christian (Jewish) scholar.  The issue was that Josephus conceded that 
some of Jesus' acts could not be explained,  despite the fact that he was 
not a follower.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               28-Aug-99 06:55:03
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 10:43:13
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [time's up]

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Dave Tholen wrote:
> 
> Brad Wardell writes [to Andy Henshaw]:
> 
> > But it all comes down to one question:
> >
> > Do you agree that multiple interpretations were possible?
> 
> That's not the question, Brad.  The question is whether Marty reached
> a logical conclusion.

Time's up Dave.

I gave you 48 whole hours with no responses from me on this subject, to
close up whatever loose ends you felt you had and move on with your life. 
You have failed to do so.  Why am I not surprised?  You have failed to be a
reasonable person and accept the gracious "forgive and forget" offer I
extended you.  This after you insult me and wrongfully accuse me of the act
of which you yourself are guilty.  That's a shame for you.  You have called
me unreasonable, even back-dating the statement to when I made my
interpretation of Bennie's analogy.  I will show you what the word
"unreasonable" means in graphic detail.  You have just earned yourself
another detractor.  But I assure you Professor, I'll be anything but
typical.

Since you are such a pompous stuffed shirt who purports to be the guardian
of logic in this newsgroup, I resolve to show you how obnoxious such a
schtick can be.  I resolve that I will be a guardian of context in this
newsgroup.  Wherever there is a clear removal of important context, I will
restore it for the aid of whomever you're trying to get away with it
against next.  Wherever two contiguous sentences are broken up that form a
single clear thought, they will be reunited.  And wherever unneeded,
irrelevant phrases are used, they will be removed.

By all means Dave, continue your verbal masturbation.  You've been going at
it alone for over 48 hours.  A more pathetic wretched excuse for a human
being I have not seen in all my days.

To anyone that doesn't wish to see any of these postings, please kill-file
my address.  I will use a different one when I have something important to
say.

- Marty

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               28-Aug-99 06:55:12
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 10:43:13
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Dave Tholen suddenly started making sense today after the clock struck 2AM
EST:

==> <andy@callan57.gtri.gatech.edu> wrote:
==> When I read Marty's interpretation, I thought "that's not very
==> reasonable", so I was predisposed to accept RJ and Dave's line of 
==> reasoning.  I still believe that way.

> Brad Wardell writes [to Andy Henshaw]:
> 
> > But it all comes down to one question:
> >
> > Do you agree that multiple interpretations were possible?
> >
> > Not whether you agreed with Marty's interpretation, you only need to 
> > accept (or not accept) that Marty's interpretation was one possible 
> > interpretation.

[DT]
> That's [...] the question, Brad.  [...] Marty reached a logical conclusion.
> 
> It's quite [...] logical, Brad.  You've demonstrated that repeatedly.
> Getting Andy to agree that Marty's interpretation was possible won't do 
> anything to change the fact that his interpretation is [...] logical.

[BW] 
> > I have argued that Bennie's analogy (before he clarified) could be
> > interepreted to mean multiple things.

[DT]
> [...] Marty's interpretation, even before Bennie made a [...] clarification, 

> is [...] logical [...].

[BW]
> > Personally, I think it's completely absurd to think that we can't go
> > through life making a judgement call on people, places and things,
> > based on the vast majority opinon of something.

[DT]
> What you think is absurd is [...] what the majority opinon [sic] 
> is in this case, given the way you [...] count correctly [...].

[BW]
> > A decent counter to Bennie's analogy is simple:
> >
> > I never met Adolph Hitler but I think I can conclude that he wasn't 
> > exactly a great guy since he is so universally despised.  I am not going 
> > to take the tact "Well, I can't judge him because there have been 
> > isolated incidents in history of generally despised people turning out 
> > to be not bad guys at all."
> >
> > What do you think?

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               28-Aug-99 06:55:14
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 10:43:13
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Dave Tholen suddenly started making sense today after the clock struck 2AM
EST:
> 
> Brad Wardell writes:
> 
> > Bennie Nelson wrote:
> >> You are obviously among those that have not let it drop.  You are still
> >> repeating the flawed argument that my analogy could have been interpreted
> >> as saying that Tholen is some Christ figure.
> 
> > It is not a "flawed argument" at all.  Your analogy could have been
> > interpreted that way and the proof is simply that people did.  Simply
> > because that was not your intention does not mean that it didn't happen.
> 
> Yes [...] the interpretation is logical, Brad.  Those people are [...] the
> people who [...] demonstrated [...] the interpretation is valid [...].
> 
> > Similarly, my statement in the context of making money on OS/2 of "banks
> > don't buy third party OS/2 software" was meant as a generalization
> > but obviously it COULD be taken as a literal universal statement because
> > Tholen took it that way.  What makes Tholen obnoxious is that even to this 

> > day, despite god knows how many clarifications by mean and others her 
> > persists in demanding people believe that I meant my statement as he 
> > originally took it -- i.e. there was only ONE valid interpretation of my 
> > statement back in 1997 -- his.  In Tholen's academia world, he might be
able 
> > to get away with that but in real life, many people come away with
different 
> > interpretations or opinions on something and you know what?  Multiple 
> > opinons or interpretations of something can be valid in the absence of 
> > clarification (and remember, Marty was talking about his original 
> > pre-clarification interpretation).
> 
> [...] And it was logical to take it that way, simply because [...] people
> believe that, Brad.  I'm simply noting that [...] Marty's interpretation was 

> [...] the correct interpretation.  And also his post-clarification 
> interpretation, Brad.
> 
> > You can safely say that those who interpreted it differently than you
> > intended misunderstood what you were trying to say but there's no
> > argument "flawed" or non-flawed about it.  People interpreted your analogy 

> > in multiple ways -- therefore your analogy was obviously not clear until 
> > your clarification.
> 
> [...]
> 
> > Dave and Marty's argument is purely about your pre-clarication analogy.
> > Marty took your analogy to mean something other than you intended.  It's
not
> > an "error" on his part or your part, it's just a matter of interpreting 
> > something differently.  People do it all the time.
>
> [...] I've reproduced [...] logical errors all the time, Brad.  You've 
> demonstrated that for us.

> >> Actually, given the word choices I made for that analogy, it applies
> >> to you, as well.  And, I meant it to apply to you and the others in cooa
> >> who've been the target of flame fests.  You've been the target of some
> >> pretty nasty flames.  I didn't approve of those, at the time, or now.
> >> Furthermore, I have not allowed the posts from your detractors to
> >> influence my opinion of you.
> 
> > It's still irrelevant, whether you replace me with Tholen.  However, I 
> > think you would be hard (very hard) pressed to demonstrate that the ratio 
> > of supporters to detractors is even remotely towards more detractors than 
> > supporters.  It's a long distance between showing that someone isn't 
> > universally admired and showing that they are generally despised.  I think 

> > any normal person is going to conclude based on the evidence that
generally 
> > speaking, people who deal with Tholen on-line do not like him.  That's not
> > the same as saying that everyone despises him but clearly enough to get
him 
> > voted Kook of the Month twice and that a huge percentage of the people 
> > posting to him on different news groups are flaming him.
> 
> Then [...] the ratio [...] is irrelevant, Brad.  I've [...] manipulated 
> [...] Karel [...]
> 
> > Given the participants in your discussion, it would be absurd to think
> > that you were meaning anyone but Tholen.  No one but Tholen on this news 
> > group that was participating even remotely has what one could consider a 
> > significant group of detractors.
> 
> [...] Witness the [...] anti-Tholen postings in other newsgroups.
> You do, Brad.  So does Glatt.  And Sutherland as well.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               28-Aug-99 06:55:17
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 10:43:14
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Dave Tholen suddenly started making sense today after the clock struck 2AM
EST:
> 
> Brad Wardell writes [to Bennie Nelson]:
> 
> > You are confusing rights with verdicts.

[DT]
> How ironic, coming from the person confusing David [...] Tholen [...]
> with me.

[BW]
> > Dave Tholen has the right to be a jerk.  But he is still a jerk.
> > No one is disputing his right to be a jerk.

[DT]
> So do you, Brad.  On what basis do you make that claim, Brad?  
> You're the one arguing with [...] a jerk, Brad.

[BW]
> > If a dozen people in a room think Bob's a jerk and only 2 think he's not a
> > jerk the odds are Bob is a jerk.  And in Tholen's case, it's probably more 

> > like a couple hundred to 1 (given that literally hundreds of people voted 
> > him Kook of the Month -- that's a lot of people!) and the number of people 

> > who could be considered "Supporters" are very small.  Even Karel and you 
> > claim neutrality -- i.e. you may not be detractors but you are claiming 
> > not to be supporters.

[DT]
> [...] the people in the room argue logically with me.  Prove it, if you 
> think you can, Brad.  Prove it, if you think you can, Brad.  Prove it, if 
> you think you can, Brad.  Jason S. was able to generate [...] many times
> [...] that claim. [...] the number of supporters is "very small" [...]

[BW]
> > You won't get very far in life if you don't make judgement calls purely
> > because exceptions to a given rule exist.

[DT]
> You [...] get very far in life arguing with [...] logic, Brad.

[BW]
> > That is why your analogy is flawed because society doesn't work as you
> > prescribe it should (and thankfully it doesn't).  Simply because Jesus 
> > Christ in hindsight did not turn out to be deserving of the hatred he 
> > received at the time is not proof that having a large detractor to 
> > supporter ratio is not indicative that the person deserves the scorn 
> > they receive.
> >
> > Hence, with those obvious flaws in your analogy, other possible
> > interpretations become more likely.

[DT]
> [...] "obvious flaws" [...] such as [...] Tholen postings in other 
> newsgroups [...].  Marty's "other possible interpretation" is [...] 
> demonstrated with the apples and bananas example.

[BW]
> > But simply put, obviously your analogy could be interepreted to mean other
> > things than you intended simply because people did interpret it
differently.
> > After you clarified what you meant by it, that becomes a different story
> > but up until that point, multiple interpretations were obviously possible.
> > Hence, Dave's argument that only one interpretation was possible is in
> > error.

[DT]
> That doesn't mean those interpretations were [...] not necessarily logical.  

> [...] did I [...] substantiate your claim?

[BW]
> > But again, do not confuse rights with consensus.  I would be the first one
> > to argue that Dave has every right to act like the ass he does on-line.

[DT]
> And you have the right to do the same, Brad.  But I'd [...] get you in
trouble 
> some day.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: horseman@ibm.net                                  28-Aug-99 12:45:22
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 10:43:14
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [rhetorical]

From: Tony Wright <horseman@ibm.net>

Karel Jansens wrote:

> On Thu, 26 Aug 1999 21:03:04, rerbert@wxs.nl (Gerben Bergman) wrote:
>
> >.....
> > | No, I really do: they're crap.
> >.....
> > | I do have problems with TM, though, so I guess I don't fall into that
> > | category then?
> >......
> > If what you say about being a long-time c.o.o.a lurker/participant is
true,
> > then you're obviously not a newbie and don't fit into either category.
> > Congratulations, the label doesn't apply to you. :)
> >
> Yeee-haw! You'll never know just how much that means to me (actually,
> if you have horses and clean their stables sometimes, you just might).

FWIW, speaking personally from nearly 30 years experience in doing the
latter almost daily, I found that the "obvious" byproduct is:
1. Biodegradable
2. Eminently usefull...

Compared to both the "topic" and some persons under discussion..... YMMV
of course<g>....
...and mentioning "crap"..."TM"...."DT"(+/- "logic") and "cool" all in
the same topic could lead one to conclude a particular association?
If was just the "cool" part that confused me personally as, invariably,
at least some of the former is still "warm" when it is initially picked
up?<g>

I take it yer "mushrooms" are doing as nice as mine?

> Karel Jansens
> jansens_at_ibm_dot_net
> =======================================================
> If we could have our cake _and_ eat it,
> people would start whining about seconds.

Since we appear to be discussing "effluent"(or its metaphorical, verbal
equivalent) - Well cows tend to lay "cakes"?  but readers "tastes" seem
to prefer the UseNet(c.o.o.a) faecal flavour instead...<g>.

> =======================================================

--
Rgds Tony W   Email: horseman@ibm.net

"humanum est errare: To err is human
.... and to fail is to be a Project Manager...
...but to foul things up completely needs a computer!"

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: andy@callan57.gtri.gatech.edu                     28-Aug-99 09:14:19
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 14:21:23
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: andy@callan57.gtri.gatech.edu ()

On 28 Aug 1999 03:39:17 GMT, Dave Tholen <tholenantispam@hawaii.edu> wrote:
>Andy Henshaw writes:
>
..snip
>
>>> Feedback about what you might have to do isn't very useful.
>
>> I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean by that. Could you clarify
>> or elaborate.
>
>You wrote:
>
>AH] I may have to rescind my vote on the Dave and Marty sub-debate.
>
>Note your use of "may have to".
>
>> What I meant was that, I had made up my mind, so I was casting a vote
>> - providing feedback.
>
>But you then stated that you "may have to" rescind your vote.
>
>> BTW, I had made up my mind on your's and RJ's earlier arguments against
>> Marty.  I rescinded my vote
>
>You only said that you "may have to", which is what I found to be not
>very useful.
>
Gotcha.  You're correct.  

..snip...
>
>> I believe that rescinded was an incorrect term.
>
>It doesn't really matter, because readers can't even be sure you've
>done that, given your use of "may have to", which doesn't mean that
>you have (or have not, for that matter).
>
>> I should have just stood by my earlier position and then excused
>> myself from commenting on the rest of the debate.  It got to be too
>> much for me to follow, so I just skipped over it.
>
>Does that mean you may have to rescind the rescindment that you might
>have had to do?
>
Doh. You are correct.  I never rescinded.

Regards,

Andy

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: andy@callan57.gtri.gatech.edu                     28-Aug-99 09:19:12
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 14:21:24
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: andy@callan57.gtri.gatech.edu ()

On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 04:28:24 GMT, Brad Wardell <bwardell@mw.mediaone.net>
wrote:
>
..snip...
>
>But it all comes down to one question:
>
>Do you agree that multiple interpretations were possible?  Not whether you
>agreed with Marty's interpretation, you only need to accept (or not accept)
>that Marty's interpretation was one possible interpretation.

Hmm.  I think that the question is a different one.  It looks like
Dave is addressing that in his followup; therefore, I'll try
to retreat to lurking.


>
>I have argued that Bennie's analogy (before he clarified) could be
>interepreted to mean multiple things.  Personally, I think it's completely
>absurd to think that we can't go through life making a judgement call on
>people, places and things, based on the vast majority opinon of something.
>
>A decent counter to Bennie's analogy is simple:
>
>I never met Adolph Hitler but I think I can conclude that he wasn't exactly
>a great guy since he is so universally despised.  I am not going to take the
>tact "Well, I can't judge him because there have been isolated incidents in
>history of generally despised people turning out to be not bad guys at all."
>
>What do you think?
>
>Brad
>
>> ..snip...
>>
>> >Brad
>> >
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Andy
>
>

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From: blnelson@visi.net                                 28-Aug-99 14:44:23
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 16:46:25
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: Bennie Nelson <blnelson@visi.net>

Brad Wardell wrote:
> 
> <andy@callan57.gtri.gatech.edu> wrote in message
> news:slrn7sehq2.1ug.andy@callan57.gtri.gatech.edu...
> > On Fri, 27 Aug 1999 02:03:14 GMT, Brad Wardell <bwardell@mw.mediaone.net>
> wrote:
> > ..snip...
> > >
> > >Marty's point was that the analogy given COULD be interpreted to be
> > >comparing Tholen to Jesus Christ.  He has never stated that his
> interpretion
> > >is the only one possible.  Whereas Dave (Based on his quoted text) seems
> to
> > >believe that his interpretation is the only interpretation possible.
> Bennie
> > >later clarified what he meant and Marty was ready to let the point drop
> but
> > >Dave seems obsessed in trying to "prove" that Bennie's analogy was not
> open
> > >to any interpretation but his.
> > >
> > >So it really comes down to this, in the context of trying to decide
> whether
> > >Dave Tholen is a kook or not based on numbers of detractors, if someone
> says
> > >"Well, Jesus Christ had a lot of detractors too." is it really
> unreasonable
> > >that some people might interpret this to mean that Dave's writing are
> wise
> > >and profound and that his detractors are really equivalent to a mindless
> > >mob?  [Note, Interpretation #1]
> > >
> > >I would argue that the above interpretation is the logical one to
> conclude
> > >until Bennie clarified because his actual intended meaning was:
> > >
> > When I read Marty's interpretation, I thought "that's not very
> reasonable", so
> > I was predisposed to accept RJ and Dave's line of reasoning.  I still
> > believe that way.
> >
> 
> But it all comes down to one question:
> 
> Do you agree that multiple interpretations were possible?  Not whether you
> agreed with Marty's interpretation, you only need to accept (or not accept)
> that Marty's interpretation was one possible interpretation.
> 
> I have argued that Bennie's analogy (before he clarified) could be
> interepreted to mean multiple things.  Personally, I think it's completely
> absurd to think that we can't go through life making a judgement call on
> people, places and things, based on the vast majority opinon of something.
> 
> A decent counter to Bennie's analogy is simple:
> 
> I never met Adolph Hitler but I think I can conclude that he wasn't exactly
> a great guy since he is so universally despised.  I am not going to take the
> tact "Well, I can't judge him because there have been isolated incidents in
> history of generally despised people turning out to be not bad guys at all."
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> Brad

That's not a counter at all.  We have a vantage point that gives us the
ability to see the "end from the ending."  A common point of the analogies
given, Christ, Hitler (I used that one, too), Galileo, et al, is the 
unreliability of the contemporaneous judgements, no matter how popularly 
accepted, that were rendered against or for those individuals.

Regards,
Bennie Nelson


> 
> > ..snip...
> >
> > >Brad
> > >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Andy

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net                            28-Aug-99 15:39:27
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 16:46:26
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [rhetorical]

From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens)

On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 07:05:42, rjf@yyycomasia.com (rj friedman) wrote:

> On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 00:12:31, tholenantispam@hawaii.edu 
> (Dave Tholen) wrote:
> 
> īTrackballs tend to get slippery with skins oils.
> 
> The new logitech `marble' trackballs use a better technology
> (magnetism and impregnated balls) that mitigate the usual 
> trackball problems. I like them a lot.
> 
Wow! "Impregnated balls". Shouldn't this go to 
alt.fetish.genitals.marinade or something?

Karel Jansens
jansens_at_ibm_dot_net
=======================================================
If we could have our cake _and_ eat it,
people would start whining about seconds.
=======================================================

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From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net                            28-Aug-99 15:39:28
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 16:46:26
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens)

On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 04:11:29, "Brad Wardell" 
<bwardell@mw.mediaone.net> wrote:

> 
> 
> You are confusing rights with verdicts.  Dave Tholen has the right to be a
> jerk.  But he is still a jerk.  No one is disputing his right to be a jerk.
> 
Whoa! What's this about "verdicts"? Nobody, and I mean _nobody_, in 
this NG has been appointed judge. People can have all the opinions 
they want, and everybody is free to vent them as much as they want to,
but there is absolutely no way any opinion, no matter how many 
"supporters" it has, gets the status of law or verdict.

> > What you have described is a democracy: which can be summed up as three
> > wolves and one sheep voting about what's for lunch.
> >
> 
> If a dozen people in a room think Bob's a jerk and only 2 think he's not a
> jerk the odds are Bob is a jerk.

No, the only thing that proves is that 12 people think Bob is a jerk. 
Thoughts do not equal reality, opinions do not equal a person. And 
_that_ was the real meaning of Bennie's analogies.

> And in Tholen's case, it's probably more
> like a couple hundred to 1 (given that literally hundreds of people voted
> him Kook of the Month -- that's a lot of people!) and the number of people
> who could be considered "Supporters" are very small.  Even Karel and you
> claim neutrality -- i.e. you may not be detractors but you are claiming not
> to be supporters.
> 
I said that I like talking to Dave. I find all this 
supporter-detractor stuff a bit uneasing: who's running for office 
here?

> You won't get very far in life if you don't make judgement calls purely
> because exceptions to a given rule exist.
> 
Neither if you make all your judgment calls based on the opinions of 
others.

OK, let me rephrase that: you probably _will_ get very far, but you 
won't be the kind of person I'd like to be in the same room for more 
than five minutes with.

> Over on comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic people are saying that Tiberium Sun
> (C&C 2) is a disappointment and describe why.  A couple of people are saying
> it's great but it's like a 10 to 1 ratio or so.  I do not need to go and buy
> it to conclude that if I did buy it, I would probably be disappointed with
> it.  There exist in history exceptions -- that is, games that most people
> have loathed that I have liked but they are just that -- exceptions.
> 
You're still arguing with statistics, Brad. I'll burn in hell before I
let my judgment of a person depend on bloody statistics.

> That is why your analogy is flawed because society doesn't work as you
> prescribe it should (and thankfully it doesn't).  Simply because Jesus
> Christ in hindsight did not turn out to be deserving of the hatred he
> received at the time is not proof that having a large detractor to supporter
> ratio is not indicative that the person deserves the scorn they receive.
> 
Nobody deserves to be scorned based on the number of people that are 
against them. You have to evaluate a person based on your own 
experiences with that person or otherwise shut up, that's what Bennie 
said (I hope) and that's what I agree with.

> Hence, with those obvious flaws in your analogy, other possible
> interpretations become more likely.
> 
> But simply put, obviously your analogy could be interepreted to mean other
> things than you intended simply because people did interpret it differently.
> After you clarified what you meant by it, that becomes a different story but
> up until that point, multiple interpretations were obviously possible.
> Hence, Dave's argument that only one interpretation was possible is in
> error.
> 
> But again, do not confuse rights with consensus.  I would be the first one
> to argue that Dave has every right to act like the ass he does on-line.
> 
.. or anybody else, for that matter.

Karel Jansens
jansens_at_ibm_dot_net
=======================================================
If we could have our cake _and_ eat it,
people would start whining about seconds.
=======================================================

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From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net                            28-Aug-99 15:39:29
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 16:46:26
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [rhetorical]

From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens)

On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 01:01:59, rerbert@wxs.nl (Gerben Bergman) wrote:

> On 27 Aug 1999 19:30:36 GMT, the voices channeled jansens_at_ibm_dot_net to
> say:
> 
> | Before you start liking me too much, let's get some things straight here.
> 
> No danger of that, Karel; given that you're Belgian and I'm Dutch we'll
> always be like fire and ice. (Do you Belgians have as many jokes about us
> Dutchmen as we have jokes about you?)
> 
Heh. We _made_ the jokes about Belgians and passed them over to you 
sorry guys, just to get some competition back.

> | Yes, I _do_ enjoy my talks with Dave Tholen. They've been great fun, so I
> | insist on my original statement: He is a pretty cool guy to talk to - I
> | think.
> 
> More power to you.
> 
> | Conclusion: I like Dave; you don't. Fine. Fight me over anything you want,
> | but NOT over my opinion of another person.
> 
> I get the impression that you somehow feel I "attacked" you by pointing out
> why people in this newsgroup don't like Dave. As far as I'm concerned that
> was never the issue; I was only trying to bring a little balance to your
> biased perspective by pitching it against *my* biased perspective. Sounds
> like you're starting to get a tad paranoid. (Which, by the way, is nothing
> to be ashamed of; c.o.o.a tends to do that to people.)
> 
I'm better now. I've had my prozac.

> | I can get nasty. And remember: you're in Holland, that's not so far away
> | from Belgium. I can come over and punch you up good (115 kg and I fight
> | mean).
> 
> Hmmm, 80kg and not much of a fighter. But I'm pretty sure I can *run* faster
> than you...
> 
I've got a car...
It's a Volvo...
80 kg is _nothing_ for a Volvo bumper...
<sound of demonic laughter slowly fading out>

> | > No, that was your "buddy" Tim Martin.
> | 
> | Please don't call Tim Martin my buddy, he will be very cross.
> 
> Did you notice the quotation marks around the word "buddy"?
> 
I did, but I wanted to play safe. I don't want to get TM even more 
upset. School starts soon.

> | > Fair enough; that's exactly how I feel about the prattle Dave is
undoubtedly
> | > following each of my messages up with. Thank God for killfiles.
> | 
> | I never understood the use of those, other than as not-so-good spam
> | deterrants. Why, simply not answering or even not reading works just as
> | well.
> 
> But this is easier. Having my newsreader automatically mark his messages
> "read" prevents me from having to sift through them while selecting headers
> for downloading. (He's most certainly not the only person in there.)
> 
I see. I usually download everything from this NG. I found out it 
saves time and money in the long run.

> | > I'm starting to feel I depended too much on third parties when judging
your
> | > behavior with regards to defending Dave. Apparently you didn't directly
> | > criticize his detractors, but instead simply made a few comments in a
> | > discussion many people were already involved in (as well as a vain
attempt
> | > at constraining Jeff's vitriol). I'm sorry if I jumped to incorrect
> | > conclusions.
> | 
> | I will criticize _anybody_ if I feel they're in error of some kind. What I
> | try very hard not to do is attack people because of what they think of
> | someone else, no matter how illogical or biased or even stupid I may find
> | their opinion of that person.
> 
> I didn't attack you, Karel. See above for clarification.
> 
Well, I wasn't defending. Just pointing out where I stand - or rather:
nervously hop up and down.

> | > If I had to pick one, it'd have to be the first (someone who has "some
beef"
> | > with Dave). I don't like what he does to people, I loathe his attitude,
and
> | > I feel he deserves most of the abuse he receives.
> | 
> | Well, I don't. There you go. What're you gonna do, eh?
> 
> Not a lot of anything. You don't agree with me, fine, case closed.
> 
> | Say, how's the football in Holland, still as crummy as ever?
> 
> That's too funny, coming from a guy whose national football team just lost
> to *Finland*. And hey, when was the last time your country reached the semi-
> finals at the World Cup?
> 
Typical invective. How ironic, coming from the guy who said: "fine, 
case closed".
Taking posting lessons from Gabe "Psion is censoring my posts" Pinter 
again, "Gerben"?

> | > Again, fair enough. You're entitled to your opinion, no matter how
> | > inconceivable it might be to others (and let me assure you: your opinion 
of
> | > Dave as being "a pretty cool guy to talk to" is quite inconceivable to
me).
> | 
> | The Hindu religion is _completely_ inconceivable to me, yet one of my best
> | friends is a practicing hindu. We just avoid the Vishnu-Brahma-Shiva
issues
> | and generally have a good time hanging out.
> 
> Well, there might be hope for us yet.
> 
You would be surprised what kind of issues can be solved with 
sufficient quantities of Palm beer.

> | > On what basis do you make that claim? (See? It's easy!)
> | 
> | Of course it's easy, when about ten idiots give you all the examples you
> | need.
> 
> Who are these "idiots", Karel? (I can keep this up longer than you can...)
> 
Having trouble scrolling down the newsgroup again, Gerben? Maybe you 
could ask advise from your friend Mike "irrelevant" Timbol.

Karel Jansens
jansens_at_ibm_dot_net
=======================================================
If we could have our cake _and_ eat it,
people would start whining about seconds.
=======================================================

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From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net                            28-Aug-99 15:40:00
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 16:46:26
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [rhetorical]

From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens)

On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 00:12:31, tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen) 
wrote:

> Karel Jansens writes:
> 
> >>> We've disagreed on several points, sometimes even quite expressively. 
> >>> None of them "erupted" into the behaviour you all call typical of Dave
> >>> Tholen.
>  
> >> Of course not, because *you* didn't argue with the behavior typical of
> >> the so-called "detractors".
> 
> > I don't try to do _any_ behaviour. I try very hard to be me (I'm 
> > getting better at it, so people tell me).
> 
> "I've got to be me,
>  I've got to be me!"
> 
> I can hear the music to go with those words.
> 
> > [snip]
> 
> >>> OK, I own up: I use OS/2 and I hate Microsoft products. No, I really 
> >>> do: they're crap. The last worthwile thing they made was the original 
> >>> Microsoft mouse, and I even chucked that one out in favour of a 
> >>> trackball thingie. I do have problems with TM, though, so I guess I 
> >>> don't fall into that category then?
>  
> >> I also own a couple of original Microsoft Mice.  Both have turned what I
> >> call "skittish", meaning that the mouse pointer does not move predictably
> >> based on the mouse movement.  They have developed a tendency to jump,
> >> even after the rollers have been cleaned.  The newer Microsoft Mouse that
> >> came with my new office PC has the "ergonomic" shape, and has so far been
> >> reliable, but it's only a year old.  The original mice lasted at least
> >> that long.
> 
> > I found it a pretty good rodent. It got dirty, yes, but so do all mice
> > with balls <G - Wait! I re-read that and now it's ROTFLMAO!>.
> 
> Must be male?
> 
> The problem with mice is when they encounter some foreign matter, such as
> a hair, on the surface they're rolling over.  The mouse pointer just
> stops moving in that one direction.
> 
> > Never any of the jumpyness, though. The trackball I have now is a little 
> > cool thing you can hold in your hand. Pressing the ball gives you a 
> > left click (no middle button, which is a hassle under Linux, but 
> > becoming less and less so, due to less Linux). Now I can lay back and 
> > read cooa (I still tend to jump up and curse a lot, but no trackball 
> > is likely going to change that <G>).
> 
> Trackballs tend to get slippery with skins oils.  I've grown quite
> accustomed to the TrackPoint used on ThinkPads.  Took a little getting
> accustomed to it, but I like it better than the touch pads.
> 
I deeply hate touchpads. The little eraserpoints are better, but I 
still lack tactile feedback: I like to go somewhere when I move the 
pointer on the screen, if you know what I mean.

I've been seriously contemplating forking out for a touch-screen 
monitor and sink that into my worktop, so that it would only protrude 
a couple of centimeters. Or maybe buy one of those lightpens; I worked
with one that had drivers for Warp and it had a pretty good 
resolution, good enough for serious graphics work (I tried tablets, 
but I loose hand-eye coordination very quickly).

> >> I also still use the Microsoft FORTRAN compiler when I need to create a
> >> 16-bit executable for somebody running DOS.  It has some bugs that were
> >> reported, acknowledged as reproducible by the developers, but never
fixed,
> >> even after four years.  Microsoft has since discontinued development of
> >> their FORTRAN compiler, referring customers to Digital (now Compaq)
> >> instead.
> 
> > Sorry, I try not to program, especially not in FORTRAN.
> 
> Still a good choice for number-crunching applications.  You really
> should look into the latest standard, namely Fortran 95, if your
> objections are due to lack of certain features; it may now have them
> (except no RECORD statement; derived types are handled with a TYPE
> statement, something that Fred Emmerich still hasn't learned).
>  
Dave, you don't get it: it's not the features, it's the talent. I've 
found out that I'm as good at programming as Bill Clinton is at 
celibacy.

> >>> The rough I don't mind, it's the stupid that gets on my nerves.
>  
> >> And you're seeing plenty of it from the so-called "detractors".
> 
> > I'm not taking sides (Hah! as if that's going to be believed!), but 
> > here's a shortlist:
> >
> > 1. Your opinions are only valid if they coincide with everyone else's.
> 
> Yes, they do seem to take that position rather frequently.
> 
> > 2. Fights from another geological era need to be continuously raked 
> > up.
> 
> Which "another geological era" are you referring to?
> 
Let's just say "a long time ago" then.

> > 3. Your opinions are only valid if they coincide with everyone else's.
> 
> Yes, they do seem to take that position rather frequently.
> 
> > 4. If you put out an analogy, _your own_ interpretation of it will not
> > be accepted.
> 
> Sometimes the apologies are obviously not very sincere, considering
> how they turn around and do the same thing over again.
> 
> > 5. Your opinions are only valid if they coincide with everyone else's.
> 
> Yes, they do seem to take that position rather frequently.
> 

Karel Jansens
jansens_at_ibm_dot_net
=======================================================
If we could have our cake _and_ eat it,
people would start whining about seconds.
=======================================================

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From: bwardell@mw.mediaone.net                          28-Aug-99 15:41:08
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 16:46:26
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: "Brad Wardell" <bwardell@mw.mediaone.net>

Eric Bennett <ericb@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:ericb-2808990228170001@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu...
> In article <RjJx3.3703$Tu1.150322@typhoon1.rdc-detw.rr.com>, "Brad
> Wardell" <bwardell@mw.mediaone.net> wrote:
>
>
> > If a dozen people in a room think Bob's a jerk and only 2 think he's not
a
> > jerk the odds are Bob is a jerk.  And in Tholen's case, it's probably
more
> > like a couple hundred to 1 (given that literally hundreds of people
voted
> > him Kook of the Month -- that's a lot of people!) and the number of
people
> > who could be considered "Supporters" are very small.  Even Karel and you
> > claim neutrality -- i.e. you may not be detractors but you are claiming
not
> > to be supporters.
>
> It was more like ten people who voted for him in the Usenet KOTM election.
>
> The other poll (csma KOTM) was not well protected against vote fraud.  I
> had an amusing evening playing with their vote counting system to see if I
> could get around their belatedly instituted safeguards (which I did... I
> was running up votes for Nathan Hughes, not Dave Tholen, but somehow I
> suspect that Tholen had some overactive fans too).
>

I didn't vote in either one but I did see the results to one of them and it
was literally hundreds of people and they listed the people who voted.

Brad


> --
> Eric Bennett ( http://www.pobox.com/~ericb/ )
> Cornell University / Chemistry & Chemical Biology
>
> Sixty-seven percent of the doctors surveyed preferred X to Y.
> (Jones couldn't be persauded.)  -John Allen Paulos


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From: bwardell@mw.mediaone.net                          28-Aug-99 15:54:01
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 16:46:26
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: "Brad Wardell" <bwardell@mw.mediaone.net>

Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:37C7C027.4541B7A7@stny.rr.com...
> Dave Tholen suddenly started making sense today after the clock struck 2AM
> EST:

Actually, Dave isn't making sense.  From what little I gather it's obvious
he's responding directly to me as if I'm reading his posts.

Yet he knows I killfiled him some time ago.  So responding directly to me is
the height of illogic and kookiness.

It's one thing to one to address points that one doesn't agree with and it's
another to knowingly talk to people who don't see your posts.

I've already concluded that Tholen's opinions are no worth reading, that any
post I make stands on its own and whatever silly retort or whatever by
Tholen is going to be insufficient to convince people that he's right about
whatever point.

Everytime he posts that his interpretation of something is the ONLY valid
interpretation for a vague analogy he only makes my case for me -- he's an
arrogant jerk known generally for being a kook.

Similarly, posts in other news groups
http://www.deja.com/qs.xp?OP=dnquery.xp&ST=QS&QRY=%22Dave+Tholen%22+NOT+comp
.os.os2.advocacy&DBS=2

continue to show that a large chunk of them are Tholen detractors or people
talking negatively about Tholen who are not here.  Some of the quoted text
I've seen apparently show Dave acting as if this is false.  Again, more
"truth by proclamation" by Dave.  Anyone can click on that link above and
see that while not every post that mentions the word "Dave Tholen" is a
flame against him, a good chunk of them is (16 out of 21 are negative
towards Tholen in some respect) and this is just a little over a week's
worth of stats.

So getting back to Marty's modified context, even with your modified
context, Dave still doesn't make sense because he's talking directly to
someone who doesn't see his posts unless someone actually quotes the entire
thing since I have him killfiled.  I find it more than a little bit weird
that he would knowingly continue to respond *directly* to me as opposed to
addressing points in general sense using his meager intellect.

Brad

> >
> > Brad Wardell writes [to Bennie Nelson]:
> >
> > > You are confusing rights with verdicts.
>
> [DT]
> > How ironic, coming from the person confusing David [...] Tholen [...]
> > with me.
>
> [BW]
> > > Dave Tholen has the right to be a jerk.  But he is still a jerk.
> > > No one is disputing his right to be a jerk.
>
> [DT]
> > So do you, Brad.  On what basis do you make that claim, Brad?
> > You're the one arguing with [...] a jerk, Brad.
>
> [BW]
> > > If a dozen people in a room think Bob's a jerk and only 2 think he's
not a
> > > jerk the odds are Bob is a jerk.  And in Tholen's case, it's probably
more
> > > like a couple hundred to 1 (given that literally hundreds of people
voted
> > > him Kook of the Month -- that's a lot of people!) and the number of
people
> > > who could be considered "Supporters" are very small.  Even Karel and
you
> > > claim neutrality -- i.e. you may not be detractors but you are
claiming
> > > not to be supporters.
>
> [DT]
> > [...] the people in the room argue logically with me.  Prove it, if you
> > think you can, Brad.  Prove it, if you think you can, Brad.  Prove it,
if
> > you think you can, Brad.  Jason S. was able to generate [...] many times
> > [...] that claim. [...] the number of supporters is "very small" [...]
>
> [BW]
> > > You won't get very far in life if you don't make judgement calls
purely
> > > because exceptions to a given rule exist.
>
> [DT]
> > You [...] get very far in life arguing with [...] logic, Brad.
>
> [BW]
> > > That is why your analogy is flawed because society doesn't work as you
> > > prescribe it should (and thankfully it doesn't).  Simply because Jesus
> > > Christ in hindsight did not turn out to be deserving of the hatred he
> > > received at the time is not proof that having a large detractor to
> > > supporter ratio is not indicative that the person deserves the scorn
> > > they receive.
> > >
> > > Hence, with those obvious flaws in your analogy, other possible
> > > interpretations become more likely.
>
> [DT]
> > [...] "obvious flaws" [...] such as [...] Tholen postings in other
> > newsgroups [...].  Marty's "other possible interpretation" is [...]
> > demonstrated with the apples and bananas example.
>
> [BW]
> > > But simply put, obviously your analogy could be interepreted to mean
other
> > > things than you intended simply because people did interpret it
differently.
> > > After you clarified what you meant by it, that becomes a different
story
> > > but up until that point, multiple interpretations were obviously
possible.
> > > Hence, Dave's argument that only one interpretation was possible is in
> > > error.
>
> [DT]
> > That doesn't mean those interpretations were [...] not necessarily
logical.
> > [...] did I [...] substantiate your claim?
>
> [BW]
> > > But again, do not confuse rights with consensus.  I would be the first
one
> > > to argue that Dave has every right to act like the ass he does
on-line.
>
> [DT]
> > And you have the right to do the same, Brad.  But I'd [...] get you in
trouble
> > some day.


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: bwardell@mw.mediaone.net                          28-Aug-99 15:59:06
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 16:46:26
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: "Brad Wardell" <bwardell@mw.mediaone.net>

<andy@callan57.gtri.gatech.edu> wrote in message
news:slrn7sfoes.24b.andy@callan57.gtri.gatech.edu...
> On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 04:28:24 GMT, Brad Wardell <bwardell@mw.mediaone.net>
wrote:
> >
> ..snip...
> >
> >But it all comes down to one question:
> >
> >Do you agree that multiple interpretations were possible?  Not whether
you
> >agreed with Marty's interpretation, you only need to accept (or not
accept)
> >that Marty's interpretation was one possible interpretation.
>
> Hmm.  I think that the question is a different one.  It looks like
> Dave is addressing that in his followup; therefore, I'll try
> to retreat to lurking.
>

Don't let Dave or I make your mind up for you.  Dave will simply change what
the topic was about.  The posts are still here, you can read them for
yourself.  Marty quite clearly was stating that there was nothing wrong with
his interpretation of Bennie's analogy before Bennie clarified precisely
what he meant.

Marty was not the only one who took the analogy that way.  In fact, several
people took the analogy differently than Bennie intended.

I think that makes it obvious that the analogy was not precise enough before
clarification not to be open to multiple interpretations.

All of Dave's "truth by proclamation" cannot change that.

Remember Forest Gump's "Life is like a box of chocolates..."  In Tholen's
universe, that statement must only have one valid interpretation.  But
normal people would agree that you can take that analogy quite a few
different ways.

What you'll witness Dave trying to do is obfuscate this into a giant
multipage argument on tons of rather irrelevant things but it still boils
down to one question, could Bennie's analogy be reasonably interpreted in
multiple ways?

Brad


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: bwardell@mw.mediaone.net                          28-Aug-99 16:03:00
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 16:46:26
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: "Brad Wardell" <bwardell@mw.mediaone.net>

Bennie Nelson <blnelson@visi.net> wrote in message
news:37C7F5F6.2D6237E@visi.net...
> Brad Wardell wrote:
> >
> > <andy@callan57.gtri.gatech.edu> wrote in message
> > news:slrn7sehq2.1ug.andy@callan57.gtri.gatech.edu...
> > > On Fri, 27 Aug 1999 02:03:14 GMT, Brad Wardell
<bwardell@mw.mediaone.net>
> > wrote:
> > > ..snip...
> > > >
> > > >Marty's point was that the analogy given COULD be interpreted to be
> > > >comparing Tholen to Jesus Christ.  He has never stated that his
> > interpretion
> > > >is the only one possible.  Whereas Dave (Based on his quoted text)
seems
> > to
> > > >believe that his interpretation is the only interpretation possible.
> > Bennie
> > > >later clarified what he meant and Marty was ready to let the point
drop
> > but
> > > >Dave seems obsessed in trying to "prove" that Bennie's analogy was
not
> > open
> > > >to any interpretation but his.
> > > >
> > > >So it really comes down to this, in the context of trying to decide
> > whether
> > > >Dave Tholen is a kook or not based on numbers of detractors, if
someone
> > says
> > > >"Well, Jesus Christ had a lot of detractors too." is it really
> > unreasonable
> > > >that some people might interpret this to mean that Dave's writing are
> > wise
> > > >and profound and that his detractors are really equivalent to a
mindless
> > > >mob?  [Note, Interpretation #1]
> > > >
> > > >I would argue that the above interpretation is the logical one to
> > conclude
> > > >until Bennie clarified because his actual intended meaning was:
> > > >
> > > When I read Marty's interpretation, I thought "that's not very
> > reasonable", so
> > > I was predisposed to accept RJ and Dave's line of reasoning.  I still
> > > believe that way.
> > >
> >
> > But it all comes down to one question:
> >
> > Do you agree that multiple interpretations were possible?  Not whether
you
> > agreed with Marty's interpretation, you only need to accept (or not
accept)
> > that Marty's interpretation was one possible interpretation.
> >
> > I have argued that Bennie's analogy (before he clarified) could be
> > interepreted to mean multiple things.  Personally, I think it's
completely
> > absurd to think that we can't go through life making a judgement call on
> > people, places and things, based on the vast majority opinon of
something.
> >
> > A decent counter to Bennie's analogy is simple:
> >
> > I never met Adolph Hitler but I think I can conclude that he wasn't
exactly
> > a great guy since he is so universally despised.  I am not going to take
the
> > tact "Well, I can't judge him because there have been isolated incidents
in
> > history of generally despised people turning out to be not bad guys at
all."
> >
> > What do you think?
> >
> > Brad
>
> That's not a counter at all.  We have a vantage point that gives us the
> ability to see the "end from the ending."  A common point of the analogies
> given, Christ, Hitler (I used that one, too), Galileo, et al, is the
> unreliability of the contemporaneous judgements, no matter how popularly
> accepted, that were rendered against or for those individuals.
>

Then you need to address why the contemporay judgement in this case may not
be right.

Galileo was arguing a scientific fact that could be proven in time.  Christ
was the foundation of a religion.

This new clarification makes it even worse than before because now we're
told we can't judge people today as bad people no matter how many people
hate a given person because maybe a 1000 years from now they'll be found not
to be worthy of such derisiion.  But you need to provide a reason why you
think Tholen's behavior will some day be celebrated instead of despised.

Brad

> Regards,
> Bennie Nelson
>
>
> >
> > > ..snip...
> > >
> > > >Brad
> > > >
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Andy


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From: bwardell@mw.mediaone.net                          28-Aug-99 16:27:15
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 16:46:26
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: "Brad Wardell" <bwardell@mw.mediaone.net>

<jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens)> wrote in message
news:L9BY9tzSDwrQ-pn2-UdvLdeGXdzIo@localhost...
> On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 04:11:29, "Brad Wardell"
> <bwardell@mw.mediaone.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > You are confusing rights with verdicts.  Dave Tholen has the right to be
a
> > jerk.  But he is still a jerk.  No one is disputing his right to be a
jerk.
> >
> Whoa! What's this about "verdicts"? Nobody, and I mean _nobody_, in
> this NG has been appointed judge. People can have all the opinions
> they want, and everybody is free to vent them as much as they want to,
> but there is absolutely no way any opinion, no matter how many
> "supporters" it has, gets the status of law or verdict.
>

The term "verdict" exists outside of court, Bennie.  Do you prefer the word
"Consensus"?  It's just semantics.


> > > What you have described is a democracy: which can be summed up as
three
> > > wolves and one sheep voting about what's for lunch.
> > >
> >
> > If a dozen people in a room think Bob's a jerk and only 2 think he's not
a
> > jerk the odds are Bob is a jerk.
>
> No, the only thing that proves is that 12 people think Bob is a jerk.
> Thoughts do not equal reality, opinions do not equal a person. And
> _that_ was the real meaning of Bennie's analogies.

I don't even know how to respond to this, it's...so naive it's amazing.  Are
you a college student?

Let me use a real world example:

I move into a new neighborhood of people that has 12 houses on the block.
At the yearly neighborhood association I talk to my neighbors and they keep
mentioning how one neighbor, Bob, is just a complete jerk.  Over and over at
this meeting I keep hearing this.

When I leave the meeting, I am probably going to conclude that Bob is
probably a jerk.  I'm going to try to withold final judgement until I meet
Bob but odds are, Bob is a jerk and at the very least, there is something
about Bob that seems to anger his neighbors that he should really look at
changing if he wants to get along with people.

Now, this has real live implications.  So I go home and Bob comes over to my
house and wants to borrow my lawn mower.  Well, normally I wouldn't think
twice of lending a neighbor my lawnmower but after hearing all this
negativity on Bob, I decide not to until I learn more about Bob.

Now how this analogy relates to Tholen.

A new user comes to this news group and they keep hearing how people think
Dave Tholen is a complete jerk or kook.  A good chunk of the topics either
have his name in them in a derisive way or are about him and are just
flaming him.  A new user is going to conclude that odds are, Dave's a real
jerk or at the very least, there's something about Dave that annoys a lot of
people that Dave should really look at if he wants to get along with people.

But in this case, there's more, people are also providing examples of Dave's
behavior which include illogical arguments, massive hypocricy, intentionally
being antagnostic by going into other discussions not about him and
antagonizing people.  And unlike the neighborhood example, there's even a
database called DejaNews where people can see Dave's own words.



>
> > And in Tholen's case, it's probably more
> > like a couple hundred to 1 (given that literally hundreds of people
voted
> > him Kook of the Month -- that's a lot of people!) and the number of
people
> > who could be considered "Supporters" are very small.  Even Karel and you
> > claim neutrality -- i.e. you may not be detractors but you are claiming
not
> > to be supporters.
> >
> I said that I like talking to Dave. I find all this
> supporter-detractor stuff a bit uneasing: who's running for office
> here?

Huh?  You're the one arguing for Bennie's analogy.  I am merely
demonstrating why it is flawed.  No one asked you to jump in and say "We
can't conclude Dave's a kook just because so many people think he's a
jerk -- look at Christ and Galileo, they were hated in their times too but
now look at the opinon of them!"  Your statement simply doesn't apply for
the reasons that have been stated over and over.

So don't act like we're forcing upon you this supporter/detractor thing.
You're trying to argue that we can't conclude there's something wrong with
Dave just because so many people despise him.  In real life, people do that
all the time and it's constructive towards making people more socialable.  I
highly doubt Dave behaves like he does in "real life" like he does here
because he wouldn't get far.  Society has certain behavior expectations and
when people don't meet them, they end up like Dave, outcasts.  I realize
that individuality and "being different" are celebrated but they are also
quite mythic.  When it comes to social interaction, people have certain
basic expectations.

>
> > You won't get very far in life if you don't make judgement calls purely
> > because exceptions to a given rule exist.
> >
> Neither if you make all your judgment calls based on the opinions of
> others.

I think Icould argue I've already "made it far" and I do make judgement
calls based on other opinions every day.  I have to, I don't have time to
micro manage every little thing that goes on where I work.  I have people
who provide opinions on things that I then have to make a decision based on
their opinons.

>
> OK, let me rephrase that: you probably _will_ get very far, but you
> won't be the kind of person I'd like to be in the same room for more
> than five minutes with.
>

I think I can live with that.  You wouldn't have time to spend 5 minutes
with people, you'll be too busy running around verifying every
inconsequential to important "Fact" for yourself.

I wonder how many seconds you'd last in the military.  Leaders have to take
the opinions of their subordinates or the morale of their troops into
consideration when making a judgement call all the time.

Or I wonder how long you'd last in an executive position at a company
without relying on the opinions of others.

> > Over on comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic people are saying that Tiberium
Sun
> > (C&C 2) is a disappointment and describe why.  A couple of people are
saying
> > it's great but it's like a 10 to 1 ratio or so.  I do not need to go and
buy
> > it to conclude that if I did buy it, I would probably be disappointed
with
> > it.  There exist in history exceptions -- that is, games that most
people
> > have loathed that I have liked but they are just that -- exceptions.
> >
> You're still arguing with statistics, Brad. I'll burn in hell before I
> let my judgment of a person depend on bloody statistics.

So in other words, you'd go buy it for yourself to find out it sucks and
return it.

I'll say it agian, you won't get very far in life if you don't make
judgement calls based on the opinions of others.

Sigh, well, the gap in our viewpoints on the universe is obviously pretty
huge.


>
> > That is why your analogy is flawed because society doesn't work as you
> > prescribe it should (and thankfully it doesn't).  Simply because Jesus
> > Christ in hindsight did not turn out to be deserving of the hatred he
> > received at the time is not proof that having a large detractor to
supporter
> > ratio is not indicative that the person deserves the scorn they receive.
> >
> Nobody deserves to be scorned based on the number of people that are
> against them. You have to evaluate a person based on your own
> experiences with that person or otherwise shut up, that's what Bennie
> said (I hope) and that's what I agree with.
>

There's an old saying "Parents need to correct their children or society
will do it for them."

No one is suggesting that you or Bennie should scorn or be a Tholen
detractor.  At the same time, you cannot say that those of us who think
Tholen is a kook are in the wrong.  Society has expectations for human
behavior and when people defy those expectations they pay for it -- as
Tholen is.  He will always be the object of ridicule on the internet until
he alters his behavior to fall withint societal norms.  I realize in this
age of "individuality" that must seem awful but without societal norms, it
is difficult to have a civilized discussion.


Brad

> Karel Jansens
> jansens_at_ibm_dot_net
> =======================================================
> If we could have our cake _and_ eat it,
> people would start whining about seconds.
> =======================================================


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: huffd@nls.net                                     28-Aug-99 16:33:26
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 16:46:26
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: "David D. Huff Jr." <huffd@nls.net>

Keep on swinging your sentiment is heard around the world.
M$ had a team of people in the early to mid-nineties posting trash
on everybody but them, true or not they posted away. Too
few people these days are capable of thinking for themselves.
So they bought into the MikeySoft mind share.

I especially like sites that use that active x thing to close WinBlows
browsers.

Philippe Duchenne wrote:

> A new collection of "Anti-Microsoft" Web banners is available at
>
>   <URL:http://www.ping.be/amigaphil/pic/SBull.html>
>
> Those are based on a "Microsoft FREE" seal (16 colors, Netscape palette
used)
>
> Other collections have been updated too :
>
>  - More cream pies for Bill Gates
>    <URL:http://www.ping.be/amigaphil/pic/SBill.html>
>
>  - Pie Steve Ballmer
>    <URL:http://www.ping.be/amigaphil/pic/SBall.html>
>
> Last:  As an extra, a set of "Microsoft FREE" stamps specially
> designed for Web pages (monochrome, transparent background) is
> available as part of the archive downloadable from the above pages,
> or from:
>
>    <URL:http://www.ping.be/amigaphil/Anti-Microsoft.html>
>
> (see bottom right corner of the page)
>
> Philippe Duchenne <URL:http://www.ping.be/amigaphil/>
> PGP ID : 9C07F6C1
> A mind is a terrible thing to...err...Hmmm?

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: jack.troughton@nospam.videotron.ca                28-Aug-99 16:43:19
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 16:46:26
Subj: Re: WarpExpo Speakers???

From: jack.troughton@nospam.videotron.ca (Jack Troughton)

On Tue, 24 Aug 1999 18:42:19, sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den 
Beste) wrote:

źOn Tue, 24 Aug 1999 14:05:58 -0400, Marty recycled some holes into the
źfollowing pattern:
ź>
ź>Sounds like you'd almost be happier if Steven C. Den Beste was a key
ź>note speaker.  ;-)
ź>
ź>- Marty
Ū
źI think that if I showed up I'd leave covered with tar and feathers, riding
źon a rail. <g>
Ū
ź(Maybe I could go incognito...)

To be honest with you Steve, I doubt it.  While I may disagree with 
you from time to time ;) you seem like you'd be a good person to sit 
down and have a beer with.

Just my $0.02.

Jack Troughton   ICQ:7494149
http://jakesplace.dhs.org
jack.troughton at videotron.ca
jake at jakesplace.dhs.org
MontrŚal PQ Canada

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From: blnelson@visi.net                                 28-Aug-99 16:58:12
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 16:46:26
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: Bennie Nelson <blnelson@visi.net>

Brad Wardell wrote:
> 
> Bennie Nelson <blnelson@visi.net> wrote in message
> news:37C753E2.6AF457FF@visi.net...
> > Brad Wardell wrote:
> > >
> > > <andy@callan57.gtri.gatech.edu> wrote in message
> > > news:slrn7sbo5p.1e6.andy@callan57.gtri.gatech.edu...
> > > > On Thu, 26 Aug 1999 14:14:35 GMT, Brad Wardell
> <bwardell@mw.mediaone.net>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > ><andy@callan57.gtri.gatech.edu> wrote in message
> > > > >news:slrn7s9cir.rh.andy@callan57.gtri.gatech.edu...
> > > > >> If anyone is interested in an opinion from a lurker:
> > > > ..snip...
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Since I'm giving my opinion, I'll also point out that RJ and Dave
> > > > >> have beaten Marty in their sub-debate.
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >You give a reason why you think David "won" his debate but you don't
> even
> > > > >provide a single reason why you think RJ and Dave have beaten Marty
> on
> > > their
> > > > >sub-debate.  Do you even know what they're debating?
> > > > >
> > > > >Brad
> > > > >
> > > > I believe so.  In the sub-debate that I was referring to, Marty
> > > >  seems to feel that Dave was being compared to
> > > > Jesus Christ and that this particular comparison is important. RJ and
> > > > Dave seem to be contending that the Jesus Christ reference was not the
> > > > important part of the original argument.
> > > >
> > > > I could give reasons why I prefer RJ and Dave's argument, but it would
> > > > take much longer than the short reason I gave for David Sutherland's
> > > > position.  I didn't intend to participate in either debate, I was just
> > > > voting.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Marty's point was that the analogy given COULD be interpreted to be
> > > comparing Tholen to Jesus Christ.  He has never stated that his
interpretion
> > > is the only one possible.  Whereas Dave (Based on his quoted text) seems 
to
> > > believe that his interpretation is the only interpretation possible.
Bennie
> > > later clarified what he meant and Marty was ready to let the point drop
but
> > > Dave seems obsessed in trying to "prove" that Bennie's analogy was not
open
> > > to any interpretation but his.
> > >
> > > So it really comes down to this, in the context of trying to decide
whether
> > > Dave Tholen is a kook or not based on numbers of detractors, if someone
says
> > > "Well, Jesus Christ had a lot of detractors too." is it really
unreasonable
> > > that some people might interpret this to mean that Dave's writing are
wise
> > > and profound and that his detractors are really equivalent to a mindless
> > > mob?  [Note, Interpretation #1]
> > >
> > > I would argue that the above interpretation is the logical one to
conclude
> > > until Bennie clarified because his actual intended meaning was:
> > >
> > > You cannot conclude people are kooks and other kinds of undesirables 
based
> > > on having a large detractor to supporter ratio because there are
examples in
> > > history of people who had a lot of detractors who we agree now weren't
kooks
> > > or undesirables. [Note, Interpretation #2]
> > >
> > > However, this analogy is flawed because of two primary reasons:
> > >
> > > 1) His example, Jesus Christ (and another given later Copernicus) were
> > > people who were hated because of a specific idea they were preaching.
> > > Tholen, by contrast, is disliked because of his behavior.  He isn't
trying
> > > to spread a particular idea or belief.
> > >
> > > and
> > >
> > > 2) The whole system of consensus is predicated on giving weight to the
> > > verdicts of society or at least the majority group.  If we did not judge
> > > people to be undesirables based on having a large detractor to supporter
> > > ratio then the entire US criminal justice system (trial by a jury of
your
> > > peers) would not function.  Or in short, generally speaking, if someone
has
> > > a large number of detractors in ratio to the number of supporters, then
odds
> > > are there's a reason for valid reason for it.
> >
> > Brad,
> > You've made a gross error here.  The American Experiment takes into
account
> > the long history of man's inhumanity to man, and especially, the tyranny
of
> > the majority.  The Founding Fathers of the American Republic chose a
Republican
> > form of government specifically to address the overwhelming tendencey of
the
> > majority to be wrong.  The Electoral College, the division of power into
five
> > parts (the People, the States, the Executive Branch, the Congress, and the
> > Federal Judiciary), and the Judicial appeals process are all aimed at
preventing
> > the rights of individuals from being abbrogated or taken away.
> >
> 
> You are confusing rights with verdicts.  Dave Tholen has the right to be a
> jerk.  But he is still a jerk.  No one is disputing his right to be a jerk.

Wrong, again, Brad.  You introduced jurisprudence into the thread.  And your 
depiction of America's form of government and jurisprudence was quite flawed.
So, I called you on it.  You avoided the substance of my reply and, to cover 
up your gross error concerning the American Experiment you accuse me of being
the one who introduced jurisprudence and rights into the thread.

The rules governing jury selection, jury behavior, and the entire jury 
decision process, are in place because groups of people are known to 
arrive at very bad decisions.

For some further reading on the topic of flawed decision making by a 
majority, I suggest Federalist Papers nos 10, 51, 63, 71, and 73.

> 
> > What you have described is a democracy: which can be summed up as three
> > wolves and one sheep voting about what's for lunch.
> >
> 
> If a dozen people in a room think Bob's a jerk and only 2 think he's not a
> jerk the odds are Bob is a jerk.  And in Tholen's case, it's probably more
> like a couple hundred to 1 (given that literally hundreds of people voted
> him Kook of the Month -- that's a lot of people!) and the number of people
> who could be considered "Supporters" are very small.  Even Karel and you
> claim neutrality -- i.e. you may not be detractors but you are claiming not
> to be supporters.

I didn't join the mob who flamed you recently, either.

> 
> You won't get very far in life if you don't make judgement calls purely
> because exceptions to a given rule exist.

Define "very far in life."  

> 
> Over on comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic people are saying that Tiberium Sun
> (C&C 2) is a disappointment and describe why.  A couple of people are saying
> it's great but it's like a 10 to 1 ratio or so.  I do not need to go and buy
> it to conclude that if I did buy it, I would probably be disappointed with
> it.  There exist in history exceptions -- that is, games that most people
but narrow the strictly-genealogical
issue.  And it is no good saying we can never know when they died
until every scrap of paper and hunk of stone or metal has been
examined.
Neither is it irrelevant to genealogy to consider the received views
of the character of Felipe.   What he was is to some (probably
considerable) extent the result of his ancestry, and his character can
tell us something about his ancestors.  His choice of a cousin for his
fourth wife, who gave him the son who succeeded him (and through whom
the Habsburg inbreediong was accentuated in later generations) needs
explanation which may be well be found in this character. 

>Leo van de Pas wrote:
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <skip1@ix.netcom.com>
>> To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, August 26, 1999 10:07 PM
>> Subject: Re: Character assasination
>>
<SNIP SNIP>

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: blnelson@visi.net                                 28-Aug-99 17:10:22
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 16:46:26
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: Bennie Nelson <blnelson@visi.net>

Brad Wardell wrote:
> 
> Bennie Nelson <blnelson@visi.net> wrote in message
> news:37C7F5F6.2D6237E@visi.net...
> > Brad Wardell wrote:
> > >
> > > <andy@callan57.gtri.gatech.edu> wrote in message
> > > news:slrn7sehq2.1ug.andy@callan57.gtri.gatech.edu...
> > > > On Fri, 27 Aug 1999 02:03:14 GMT, Brad Wardell
> <bwardell@mw.mediaone.net>
> > > wrote:
> > > > ..snip...
> > > > >
> > > > >Marty's point was that the analogy given COULD be interpreted to be
> > > > >comparing Tholen to Jesus Christ.  He has never stated that his
> > > interpretion
> > > > >is the only one possible.  Whereas Dave (Based on his quoted text)
> seems
> > > to
> > > > >believe that his interpretation is the only interpretation possible.
> > > Bennie
> > > > >later clarified what he meant and Marty was ready to let the point
> drop
> > > but
> > > > >Dave seems obsessed in trying to "prove" that Bennie's analogy was
> not
> > > open
> > > > >to any interpretation but his.
> > > > >
> > > > >So it really comes down to this, in the context of trying to decide
> > > whether
> > > > >Dave Tholen is a kook or not based on numbers of detractors, if
> someone
> > > says
> > > > >"Well, Jesus Christ had a lot of detractors too." is it really
> > > unreasonable
> > > > >that some people might interpret this to mean that Dave's writing are
> > > wise
> > > > >and profound and that his detractors are really equivalent to a
> mindless
> > > > >mob?  [Note, Interpretation #1]
> > > > >
> > > > >I would argue that the above interpretation is the logical one to
> > > conclude
> > > > >until Bennie clarified because his actual intended meaning was:
> > > > >
> > > > When I read Marty's interpretation, I thought "that's not very
> > > reasonable", so
> > > > I was predisposed to accept RJ and Dave's line of reasoning.  I still
> > > > believe that way.
> > > >
> > >
> > > But it all comes down to one question:
> > >
> > > Do you agree that multiple interpretations were possible?  Not whether
> you
> > > agreed with Marty's interpretation, you only need to accept (or not
> accept)
> > > that Marty's interpretation was one possible interpretation.
> > >
> > > I have argued that Bennie's analogy (before he clarified) could be
> > > interepreted to mean multiple things.  Personally, I think it's
> completely
> > > absurd to think that we can't go through life making a judgement call on
> > > people, places and things, based on the vast majority opinon of
> something.
> > >
> > > A decent counter to Bennie's analogy is simple:
> > >
> > > I never met Adolph Hitler but I think I can conclude that he wasn't
> exactly
> > > a great guy since he is so universally despised.  I am not going to take
> the
> > > tact "Well, I can't judge him because there have been isolated incidents
> in
> > > history of generally despised people turning out to be not bad guys at
> all."
> > >
> > > What do you think?
> > >
> > > Brad
> >
> > That's not a counter at all.  We have a vantage point that gives us the
> > ability to see the "end from the ending."  A common point of the analogies
> > given, Christ, Hitler (I used that one, too), Galileo, et al, is the
> > unreliability of the contemporaneous judgements, no matter how popularly
> > accepted, that were rendered against or for those individuals.
> >
> 
> Then you need to address why the contemporay judgement in this case may not
> be right.

I did not say the judgement was in error nor have I said it is true.  I simply 

said I won't blindly accept it.  I'll make up my own mind based upon the
facts.

Your way is that once a few in the jury have made up their own minds about a
case, then the rest should simply go along with the crowd.

> 
> Galileo was arguing a scientific fact that could be proven in time.  Christ
> was the foundation of a religion.

I disagree with the second point.  Others have used His teachings and life
as the foundation for religions.  Christ came to found a Church (literally,
"a group of people called out" from humanity into direct relationship with
the Creator of the Universe).  In the absence of that direct relationship
with the Creator, people use religion.

> 
> This new clarification makes it even worse than before because now we're
> told we can't judge people today as bad people no matter how many people
> hate a given person because maybe a 1000 years from now they'll be found not
> to be worthy of such derisiion.  

I use the 5/100 rule: will I care about this in 5 years? in 100 years?

> But you need to provide a reason why you
> think Tholen's behavior will some day be celebrated instead of despised.

I believe I've used the words "irksome" and "antagonistic" in describing
Tholen's posts.  But, as you've said, Tholen has a right to post words
that people find irksome and antagonistic. 

> 
> Brad
> 
> > Regards,
> > Bennie Nelson
> >
> >
> > >
> > > > ..snip...
> > > >
> > > > >Brad
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > >
> > > > Andy

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From: rerbert@wxs.nl                                    28-Aug-99 20:37:03
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 21:13:09
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [rhetorical]

From: rerbert@wxs.nl (Gerben Bergman)

I'm sorry, jansens_at_ibm_dot_net, did you say something?

| > No danger of that, Karel; given that you're Belgian and I'm Dutch we'll
| > always be like fire and ice. (Do you Belgians have as many jokes about us
| > Dutchmen as we have jokes about you?)
| 
| Heh. We _made_ the jokes about Belgians and passed them over to you sorry
| guys, just to get some competition back.

Don't get too smart with me now. As far as I'm concerned Belgium has no
reason to even *exist*; all parties involved would be better off if the
Dutch-speaking regions were to join Holland, and the French-speaking regions
were to join France. (We're putting up with those pesky Frisians already, so
adding a few Belgians wouldn't be that much of a burden.)

| > Hmmm, 80kg and not much of a fighter. But I'm pretty sure I can *run*
faster
| > than you...
| 
| I've got a car...
| It's a Volvo...
| 80 kg is _nothing_ for a Volvo bumper...
| <sound of demonic laughter slowly fading out>

A Volvo? Those things are like *tanks*, right? Okay, you win.

| > But this is easier. Having my newsreader automatically mark his messages
| > "read" prevents me from having to sift through them while selecting
headers
| > for downloading. (He's most certainly not the only person in there.)
| 
| I see. I usually download everything from this NG. I found out it saves time
| and money in the long run.

I used to do that for a while, but later decided that setting up a killfile
to do the initial filtering for me saves both time and effort. Technology is
supposed to make things easier, after all.

| > That's too funny, coming from a guy whose national football team just lost
| > to *Finland*. And hey, when was the last time your country reached the
semi-
| > finals at the World Cup?
| 
| Typical invective.

On what basis do you call it "invective", or even "typical"?

| How ironic, coming from the guy who said: "fine, case closed".

I see you didn't answer the question. Why am I not surprised?

| Taking posting lessons from Gabe "Psion is censoring my posts" Pinter again,
| "Gerben"?

Who is that, Karel?

| > Well, there might be hope for us yet.
| 
| You would be surprised

How could you possibly know what would surprise me, Karel?

| what kind of issues can be solved with sufficient quantities

How much is "sufficient quantities", Karel?

| of Palm beer.

You're erroneously presupposing that consumption of alcohol solves "issues".
I'm sure the millions of victims of alcohol-induced traffic accidents and
alcoholism-disrupted families would disagree.

| > Who are these "idiots", Karel?
| 
| Having trouble scrolling down the newsgroup again, Gerben?

Not at all, Karel. Do you?

| Maybe you could ask advise from your friend Mike "irrelevant" Timbol.

Illogical, given that he isn't my friend. Maybe you could substantiate your
claims for a change, and while you're at it, take a decent course in logic.


[Oh no, not *another* "Tholen emulator" thread! Perhaps we should bail while
we still enjoy the faintest flicker of credibility with the rest of the
c.o.o.a-reading population...]

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From: alizard[spam]@ecis.com                            28-Aug-99 19:05:18
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 21:13:09
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: alizard[spam]@ecis.com (A.Lizard)

On Thu, 26 Aug 1999 15:46:30 -0400, pxpst2@vms.cis.pitt.edu
(Peter) wrote:

>In article <7q407q$d2j$1@ffx2nh3.news.uu.net>, "nn" <nn@nn.nn> wrote:
>
>> A Maclover wrote:
>> I'm going back to
>> > >>comp.sys.mac.advocacy where things are normal.  : [

And miss out on the chance to learn about and perhaps join the
CULT OF BILL? 
 
>> Macs aint normal! Normal is 95% not 5% - macs are abnormal and so are the
>> socialist wanabees that use them. Use a "normal" PC from now on o.k.

In a couple of years, I expect "normal" PCs to be running Linux. 

Your choices will be to either forget about buying and
downloading software or upgrade to Linux. MS probably will have
ports of MS Office, etc. long before then, though if enough
people go the ABM (Anybody But Microsoft) route, MS Office won't
be "standard" anymore. 

If you use your computer for anything more important than games
and Websurfing and want to know *why* I'm saying this, do NOT
check your motherboard for Y2K compliance, do NOT install the Y2K
fix pack for your version of Windoze, and do NOT check the Web
sites of your software vendors to find out about the Y2K status
of your applications. If you're running custom applications, do
NOT contact the developer to check out Y2K status. Wait for the
first day of 2000 to see what happens, starting with your
accounting software. In other words, be a typical small business
user. 

disclaimer: the above paragraph does NOT constitute my
professional opinion or even an especially good idea. 

>Socialist wannabees????????
>
>MS windows domination is more akin to stalinist Russia.
>
>Why not be American and let the user decide?  Freedom of choice is RED
>WHITE AND BLUE, IMO.  Why should one HAVE to use this platform or that
>platform?  
>
>This whole Mac vs PC Jihad is bullshit from both sides

A professional uses whatever tool fits the job. Within the
environments in which personal computers are used, there are
places where Mac, Windoze, Linux, and even a late version of DOS
are optimum choices. Every OS has good and bad points. 

A.Lizard      


************************************************************************
"Here's the most exasperating part: Ninety-five percent of the Y2k hoax
hysteria is planted by people who stand to gain, head-lined by
propagation-hungry publishers, and purveyed as truth by perpetuators of
rumour." Dave Easterbrook
"Anybody who still believes in the media must have been in a coma for 
the past 30 years." - Robert Anton Wilson
Personal Web site http://www.ecis.com/~alizard
pagan site - http://www.ecis.com/~alizard/pagan.html
For reliable year 2000 info, go to:
http://www.ecis.com/~alizard/y2k.html
backup address (if ALL else fails) alizard@[spam]onebox.com
PGP 6.5.1 key available by request,keyserver,or on my Web site
 "I regret to say that we of the F.B.I. are powerless to act in cases of
  oral-genital intimacy, unless it has in some way obstructed interstate
  commerce."                                          -- J. Edgar Hoover
Find out what I think of the Littleton school killings at:
http://www.ecis.com/~alizard/littleto.html
************************************************************************

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From: ispy@groovyshow.com                               28-Aug-99 13:37:25
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 21:13:09
Subj: Win32 support after all!

From: "Kelly Robinson" <ispy@groovyshow.com>

www.vmware.com has a groovy new product which lets users run Win32 software!

Problem is, it's only for Linux...




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From: ispy@groovyshow.com                               28-Aug-99 13:41:08
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 21:13:09
Subj: Re: dont blame Gates for IBM not licensing Win32

From: "Kelly Robinson" <ispy@groovyshow.com>

IBM made Open32, which is a half-assed attempt at Win32 emulation which
failed.

There have been numerous third party fringe organizations who have tried
making Win32 emulation work also.  Not entirely successful.

If you want Win32 support, get Windows XX or Linux+vmware (vmware also runs
OS/2 and BeOS)

David Frank <davegemini@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990824095146.02284.00003163@ng-fc1.aol.com...
> If my memory serves, back around 94-96
> a os/2 advocate reporter corralled Bill Gates at some function
> (I believe it was at a western Comdex)
> and one of the questions was OS/2 and why was MS refusing
> to expand/extend the existing Win32s license,
> Gates replied (more or less)  that IBM had never contacted MS
> about it, and there could be a agreement about a full support
> license of Win32..
>
> Methinks, IBM was trying at the time to get away from paying
> license fees to MS and decided to go 100% with their 32-bit API
> for OS/2 expecting (hoping) their developers would create a
> viable alternate standard..
>
> It didnt happen, and I would bet IBM has still not contacted MS
> about a Win32 license for OS/2 ...
> Seems to me a excellent time for them to contract out to MS
> the job of making OS/2 compatible with MS,   AGAIN,
> (how could they say no with justice dept looking at them)...
>
> Dave


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From: ispy@groovyshow.com                               28-Aug-99 13:39:07
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 21:13:09
Subj: Re: Warp4-and-HPFS386

From: "Kelly Robinson" <ispy@groovyshow.com>

Man, you OS/2 people are so loyal and faithful and not above the law...



Anonymous <nobody@neuropa.net> wrote in message
news:199908252134.VAA27684@berlin.neuropa.net...
> This hpfs386 is dated 06/11/99 and is the latest release.
> if you're just using hpfs.ifs,  you can improve your system
> performance with the hpfs386 driver.
>
> The hpfs386 is 32bit and can have any cache size you
> want, plus its about 4x faster at writing and a bit
> faster at reading.  It will improve the speed of your
> system.
>
> Microsoft owns the "rights" (but IBM writes and has
> improved the code considerably).  MS charges IBM $600
> for each copy of HPFS386 that gets distributed with
> Warp Server.  You may thank Microsoft by passing this
> hpfs386.zip file around to your other OS/2 friends HPFS386.
>
> Instructions for installing are inside the hpfs386 zip file.
>
> It is easy to do.  You just create a subdirectory (follow
> the instructions for the name of the subdirectory) and
> copy the files inside the zip into that directory.  Then
> you adjust your config.sys file (see below) and the
> the hpfs386.ini file (again below, it is easy).
>
> The hpfs.ini file that needs the cache set.  It is currently
> set to 4096 which may be too large for you particular
> system.  I have 64 megs of ram and I didn't change the
> ini file so when I rebooted my desktop came up but
> it sort of froze.  So I changed the hpfs.ini file over to
> 1024, rebooted and presto! Everything worked beautifully.
> The ini file is a text file so you don't need a special ini
> editor to change it.  The instructions are inside the ini
> file itself in case you get lost.
>
> Another note: you'll need to update your config.sys.
> That information is also found in the hpfs386.zip file
> in the readme instructions.  The entries are easy to
> add.  They can be included at the end of your path
> statements and you can literally mark/copy/paste
> the entry from the instruction file directly into your
> config.sys paths.  Make sure you make those entries
> in your config.sys before you reboot your system so
> your system knows what driver to use and where to
> find it.
>
> You'll know it worked when you reboot and a single
> statement across your screen says the hpfs386 driver
> was found.
>
>


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From: ispy@groovyshow.com                               28-Aug-99 13:43:28
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 21:13:09
Subj: vmware mistake

From: "Kelly Robinson" <ispy@groovyshow.com>

Oops, I responded that vmware supports OS/2 and Beos.

Check out http://www.vmware.com/support/issues_linux_beta.html

and you'll sadly notice that every OS _EXCEPT_ OS/2 has a higher priority
for being supported in the near future.

If IBM doesn't give a rat about its product, why should anyone else?1



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From: dmcbride@no.tower.spam.to.org                     28-Aug-99 19:34:15
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 21:13:09
Subj: Re: dont blame Gates for IBM not licensing Win32

From: "Darin McBride" <dmcbride@no.tower.spam.to.org>

On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 13:41:16 -0500, Kelly Robinson wrote:

>IBM made Open32, which is a half-assed attempt at Win32 emulation which
>failed.

Actually, Lotus made Open32.  IBM took it over when Lotus was done with it.
---
Disclaimer: unless explicitly mentioned otherwise, I do not speak,
nor have I ever spoken, for the company I work for.



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From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net                            28-Aug-99 19:34:22
  To: All                                               28-Aug-99 21:13:09
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [rhetorical]

From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens)

On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 11:45:44, Tony Wright <horseman@ibm.net> wrote:

> Karel Jansens wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, 26 Aug 1999 21:03:04, rerbert@wxs.nl (Gerben Bergman) wrote:
> >
> > >.....
> > > | No, I really do: they're crap.
> > >.....
> > > | I do have problems with TM, though, so I guess I don't fall into that
> > > | category then?
> > >......
> > > If what you say about being a long-time c.o.o.a lurker/participant is
true,
> > > then you're obviously not a newbie and don't fit into either category.
> > > Congratulations, the label doesn't apply to you. :)
> > >
> > Yeee-haw! You'll never know just how much that means to me (actually,
> > if you have horses and clean their stables sometimes, you just might).
> 
> FWIW, speaking personally from nearly 30 years experience in doing the
> latter almost daily, I found that the "obvious" byproduct is:
> 1. Biodegradable

Thank heavens.

> 2. Eminently usefull...

Behind a computer?
> 
> Compared to both the "topic" and some persons under discussion..... YMMV
> of course<g>....
> ....and mentioning "crap"..."TM"...."DT"(+/- "logic") and "cool" all in
> the same topic could lead one to conclude a particular association?

I don't mind you associating.
Just as long as I don't have to share the experience.

> If was just the "cool" part that confused me personally as, invariably,
> at least some of the former is still "warm" when it is initially picked
> up?<g>
> 
"Picked up"???
What _are_ you doing in them horse stables, Tony?

> I take it yer "mushrooms" are doing as nice as mine?
> 
Are we now going in the "mice with balls" direction?

> > Karel Jansens
> > jansens_at_ibm_dot_net
> > =======================================================
> > If we could have our cake _and_ eat it,
> > people would start whining about seconds.
> 
> Since we appear to be discussing "effluent"(or its metaphorical, verbal
> equivalent) - Well cows tend to lay "cakes"?  but readers "tastes" seem
> to prefer the UseNet(c.o.o.a) faecal flavour instead...<g>.
> 
Wow! I have _no_ idea what you're talking about, but I want some of 
whatever you're smoking.
> > =======================================================

Karel Jansens
jansens_at_ibm_dot_net
=======================================================
If we could have our cake _and_ eat it,
people would start whining about seconds.
=======================================================

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From: malstrom@wilde.oit.umass.edu                      28-Aug-99 16:19:07
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 05:35:20
Subj: Re: vmware mistake

From: JM <malstrom@wilde.oit.umass.edu>

Kelly Robinson <ispy@groovyshow.com> wrote:
: Oops, I responded that vmware supports OS/2 and Beos.

: Check out http://www.vmware.com/support/issues_linux_beta.html

: and you'll sadly notice that every OS _EXCEPT_ OS/2 has a higher priority
: for being supported in the near future.

: If IBM doesn't give a rat about its product, why should anyone else?1

Ooops, as the herald of the news that is untrue and moldy you have made a 
mistake (yet again).  Read their web pages again.  

Opearting Systems that don't work and that *may* be supported in a future 
release:

- IBM OS/2 and OS/2 Warp

Operating Systems that don't work and they have *no* plans of ever 
supporting:

- BeOS
- Minix
- QNX
- SCO Unix
- SCO UnixWare
- Novel Netware Server

Sorry David, your precious BeOS is never going to be supported.   IBM 
might not give a Rat's ass about OS/2 and Be's life is dependant on 
BeOS, but that don't seem to make a lick of difference here.

-Jason

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From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net                            28-Aug-99 20:29:26
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 05:35:21
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [rhetorical]

From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens)

On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 18:37:07, rerbert@wxs.nl (Gerben Bergman) wrote:

> I'm sorry, jansens_at_ibm_dot_net, did you say something?
> 
> | > No danger of that, Karel; given that you're Belgian and I'm Dutch we'll
> | > always be like fire and ice. (Do you Belgians have as many jokes about
us
> | > Dutchmen as we have jokes about you?)
> | 
> | Heh. We _made_ the jokes about Belgians and passed them over to you sorry
> | guys, just to get some competition back.
> 
> Don't get too smart with me now. As far as I'm concerned Belgium has no
> reason to even *exist*; all parties involved would be better off if the
> Dutch-speaking regions were to join Holland, and the French-speaking regions
> were to join France. (We're putting up with those pesky Frisians already, so
> adding a few Belgians wouldn't be that much of a burden.)
> 
First of all, I'm Flemish, not Belgian. And we don't need no stinkin' 
Dutch buzy-bodies to come tell us when to breathe.

(Actually, I quite like Holland. Too many regulations and 
speed-cameras for my taste, bot other than that: it's nicely flat.)

> | > Hmmm, 80kg and not much of a fighter. But I'm pretty sure I can *run*
faster
> | > than you...
> | 
> | I've got a car...
> | It's a Volvo...
> | 80 kg is _nothing_ for a Volvo bumper...
> | <sound of demonic laughter slowly fading out>
> 
> A Volvo? Those things are like *tanks*, right? Okay, you win.
> 
Run, Bergman! Run!
Run like the wind, boy!

(Time for another prozac, I see.)

> | > But this is easier. Having my newsreader automatically mark his messages
> | > "read" prevents me from having to sift through them while selecting
headers
> | > for downloading. (He's most certainly not the only person in there.)
> | 
> | I see. I usually download everything from this NG. I found out it saves
time
> | and money in the long run.
> 
> I used to do that for a while, but later decided that setting up a killfile
> to do the initial filtering for me saves both time and effort. Technology is
> supposed to make things easier, after all.
> 
> | > That's too funny, coming from a guy whose national football team just
lost
> | > to *Finland*. And hey, when was the last time your country reached the
semi-
> | > finals at the World Cup?
> | 
> | Typical invective.
> 
> On what basis do you call it "invective", or even "typical"?
> 
> | How ironic, coming from the guy who said: "fine, case closed".
> 
> I see you didn't answer the question. Why am I not surprised?
> 
> | Taking posting lessons from Gabe "Psion is censoring my posts" Pinter
again,
> | "Gerben"?
> 
> Who is that, Karel?
> 
[He used to hang out in the comp.sys.psion.* groups, FUDding Psion and
claiming they were censoring his posts. He got bored when everybody 
stopped talking to him and went away. If you think TM is bad, you 
ain't seen nothing yet. Problem is that the Psion groups are so 
_polite_, you don't get fights there like you do here.]

> | > Well, there might be hope for us yet.
> | 
> | You would be surprised
> 
> How could you possibly know what would surprise me, Karel?
> 
> | what kind of issues can be solved with sufficient quantities
> 
> How much is "sufficient quantities", Karel?
> 
> | of Palm beer.
> 
> You're erroneously presupposing that consumption of alcohol solves "issues".
> I'm sure the millions of victims of alcohol-induced traffic accidents and
> alcoholism-disrupted families would disagree.
> 
> | > Who are these "idiots", Karel?
> | 
> | Having trouble scrolling down the newsgroup again, Gerben?
> 
> Not at all, Karel. Do you?
> 
> | Maybe you could ask advise from your friend Mike "irrelevant" Timbol.
> 
> Illogical, given that he isn't my friend. Maybe you could substantiate your
> claims for a change, and while you're at it, take a decent course in logic.
> 
> 
> [Oh no, not *another* "Tholen emulator" thread! Perhaps we should bail while
> we still enjoy the faintest flicker of credibility with the rest of the
> c.o.o.a-reading population...]
> 
I'm not good at it anyway.
I hope you weren't serious about the beer, though?

You weren't, right?

Tell me you were only joking, please.

Karel Jansens
jansens_at_ibm_dot_net
=======================================================
If we could have our cake _and_ eat it,
people would start whining about seconds.
=======================================================

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From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu                             28-Aug-99 20:27:20
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 05:35:21
Subj: Re: vmware mistake

From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu

Kelly Robinson writes:

> If IBM doesn't give a rat about its product, why should anyone else?

On what basis do you claim that IBM doesn't give a rat about its
product?

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From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu                             28-Aug-99 20:25:15
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 05:35:21
Subj: Re: dont blame Gates for IBM not licensing Win32

From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu

Kelly Robinson writes:

> IBM made Open32, which is a half-assed attempt at Win32 emulation
> which failed.

On what basis do you claim it failed?

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From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu                             28-Aug-99 20:29:11
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 05:35:21
Subj: Re: Warp4-and-HPFS386

From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu

Kelly Robinson writes:

> Man, you OS/2 people are so loyal and faithful and not above the law...

On what basis do you apply your accusation to "you OS/2 people"?

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From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net                            28-Aug-99 20:29:27
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 05:35:21
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens)

On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 16:27:30, "Brad Wardell" 
<bwardell@mw.mediaone.net> wrote:

> 
> <jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens)> wrote in message
> news:L9BY9tzSDwrQ-pn2-UdvLdeGXdzIo@localhost...
> > On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 04:11:29, "Brad Wardell"
> > <bwardell@mw.mediaone.net> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > You are confusing rights with verdicts.  Dave Tholen has the right to be
> a
> > > jerk.  But he is still a jerk.  No one is disputing his right to be a
> jerk.
> > >
> > Whoa! What's this about "verdicts"? Nobody, and I mean _nobody_, in
> > this NG has been appointed judge. People can have all the opinions
> > they want, and everybody is free to vent them as much as they want to,
> > but there is absolutely no way any opinion, no matter how many
> > "supporters" it has, gets the status of law or verdict.
> >
> 
> The term "verdict" exists outside of court, Bennie.  Do you prefer the word
> "Consensus"?  It's just semantics.
> 
No, it's not. "Verdict" implies a court and a judge. But I guess it 
does show how you like to see yourself.
> 
> > > > What you have described is a democracy: which can be summed up as
> three
> > > > wolves and one sheep voting about what's for lunch.
> > > >
> > >
> > > If a dozen people in a room think Bob's a jerk and only 2 think he's not
> a
> > > jerk the odds are Bob is a jerk.
> >
> > No, the only thing that proves is that 12 people think Bob is a jerk.
> > Thoughts do not equal reality, opinions do not equal a person. And
> > _that_ was the real meaning of Bennie's analogies.
> 
> I don't even know how to respond to this, it's...so naive it's amazing.  Are
> you a college student?
> 
> Let me use a real world example:
> 
> I move into a new neighborhood of people that has 12 houses on the block.
> At the yearly neighborhood association I talk to my neighbors and they keep
> mentioning how one neighbor, Bob, is just a complete jerk.  Over and over at
> this meeting I keep hearing this.
> 
> When I leave the meeting, I am probably going to conclude that Bob is
> probably a jerk.  I'm going to try to withold final judgement until I meet
> Bob but odds are, Bob is a jerk and at the very least, there is something
> about Bob that seems to anger his neighbors that he should really look at
> changing if he wants to get along with people.
> 
> Now, this has real live implications.  So I go home and Bob comes over to my
> house and wants to borrow my lawn mower.  Well, normally I wouldn't think
> twice of lending a neighbor my lawnmower but after hearing all this
> negativity on Bob, I decide not to until I learn more about Bob.
> 
> Now how this analogy relates to Tholen.
> 
> A new user comes to this news group and they keep hearing how people think
> Dave Tholen is a complete jerk or kook.  A good chunk of the topics either
> have his name in them in a derisive way or are about him and are just
> flaming him.  A new user is going to conclude that odds are, Dave's a real
> jerk or at the very least, there's something about Dave that annoys a lot of
> people that Dave should really look at if he wants to get along with people.
> 
> But in this case, there's more, people are also providing examples of Dave's
> behavior which include illogical arguments, massive hypocricy, intentionally
> being antagnostic by going into other discussions not about him and
> antagonizing people.  And unlike the neighborhood example, there's even a
> database called DejaNews where people can see Dave's own words.
> 
Brad, the only thing you've proven here is that you are apparently 
extremely prone to prejudice, and very easily influenced by others. 
The scary part is that you actually seem to think that that is a 
_good_ thing.

For the very last time: I don't really care how you feel or think 
about Dave Tholen; given what you have just told me, it's extremely 
unlikely that your opinion will ever influence mine. I don't even care
much about your argument with him: it's nigh three years old and 
completely outdated anyway.

Just one more thing: you _do_ realise that to all the participants and
lurkers in this group you are representing Stardock Systems, don't 
you? I mean, I can make a complete arse of myself and Dave Tholen can 
be as obnoxious as he wants to be, neither of us are going to lose 
even a cent in that. But if you should start painting yourself as a 
prejudiced bigot, don't you think that would reflect in your business?
Oh, I know, everybody posting here is completely gaga anyway, but 
you'll never know how many people read this every day and never post 
to this group. They're the smart ones, Brad. The ones that buy 
software.

Even Windows software. (OK, so those are the not so smart ones)

> >
> > > And in Tholen's case, it's probably more
> > > like a couple hundred to 1 (given that literally hundreds of people
> voted
> > > him Kook of the Month -- that's a lot of people!) and the number of
> people
> > > who could be considered "Supporters" are very small.  Even Karel and you
> > > claim neutrality -- i.e. you may not be detractors but you are claiming
> not
> > > to be supporters.
> > >
> > I said that I like talking to Dave. I find all this
> > supporter-detractor stuff a bit uneasing: who's running for office
> > here?
> 
> Huh?  You're the one arguing for Bennie's analogy.  I am merely
> demonstrating why it is flawed.  No one asked you to jump in and say "We
> can't conclude Dave's a kook just because so many people think he's a
> jerk -- look at Christ and Galileo, they were hated in their times too but
> now look at the opinon of them!"  Your statement simply doesn't apply for
> the reasons that have been stated over and over.
> 
> So don't act like we're forcing upon you this supporter/detractor thing.
> You're trying to argue that we can't conclude there's something wrong with
> Dave just because so many people despise him.  In real life, people do that
> all the time and it's constructive towards making people more socialable.  I
> highly doubt Dave behaves like he does in "real life" like he does here
> because he wouldn't get far.  Society has certain behavior expectations and
> when people don't meet them, they end up like Dave, outcasts.  I realize
> that individuality and "being different" are celebrated but they are also
> quite mythic.  When it comes to social interaction, people have certain
> basic expectations.
> 
The pro and contra group arguments were living here long before Bennie
illustrated them. I've been arguing for months that I don't want to 
belong to any groups when it comes to defining persons. I'm not in 
Bennie's "group", or in any other concerned the status of Dave Tholen.
> >
> > > You won't get very far in life if you don't make judgement calls purely
> > > because exceptions to a given rule exist.
> > >
> > Neither if you make all your judgment calls based on the opinions of
> > others.
> 
> I think Icould argue I've already "made it far" and I do make judgement
> calls based on other opinions every day.  I have to, I don't have time to
> micro manage every little thing that goes on where I work.  I have people
> who provide opinions on things that I then have to make a decision based on
> their opinons.
> 
Yes, I now know what kind of person you are.
> >
> > OK, let me rephrase that: you probably _will_ get very far, but you
> > won't be the kind of person I'd like to be in the same room for more
> > than five minutes with.
> >
> 
> I think I can live with that.  You wouldn't have time to spend 5 minutes
> with people, you'll be too busy running around verifying every
> inconsequential to important "Fact" for yourself.
> 
Indeed.

> I wonder how many seconds you'd last in the military.  Leaders have to take
> the opinions of their subordinates or the morale of their troops into
> consideration when making a judgement call all the time.
> 
They didn't like me in the army. I had the unnerving habit of asking 
"why?" at too many wrong moments. I still see my old sergeant from 
time to time (it's been fifteen years now), and she once admitted that
I was the reason she quit the service (the why's seemed to stick, she 
said). She's now quite successfully running a small supermarket.

> Or I wonder how long you'd last in an executive position at a company
> without relying on the opinions of others.
> 
Of course I rely on other people's opinions. It's the opinion of the 
people I don't trust anybody with.

> > > Over on comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic people are saying that Tiberium
> Sun
> > > (C&C 2) is a disappointment and describe why.  A couple of people are
> saying
> > > it's great but it's like a 10 to 1 ratio or so.  I do not need to go and
> buy
> > > it to conclude that if I did buy it, I would probably be disappointed
> with
> > > it.  There exist in history exceptions -- that is, games that most
> people
> > > have loathed that I have liked but they are just that -- exceptions.
> > >
> > You're still arguing with statistics, Brad. I'll burn in hell before I
> > let my judgment of a person depend on bloody statistics.
> 
> So in other words, you'd go buy it for yourself to find out it sucks and
> return it.
> 
Sheesh, Brad. That's life.
If you buy a game everybody says it's great and it sucks marrow for 
you, what're you gonna do?

> I'll say it agian, you won't get very far in life if you don't make
> judgement calls based on the opinions of others.
> 
> Sigh, well, the gap in our viewpoints on the universe is obviously pretty
> huge.
> 
Now _that_ I agree with completely.
> 
> >
> > > That is why your analogy is flawed because society doesn't work as you
> > > prescribe it should (and thankfully it doesn't).  Simply because Jesus
> > > Christ in hindsight did not turn out to be deserving of the hatred he
> > > received at the time is not proof that having a large detractor to
> supporter
> > > ratio is not indicative that the person deserves the scorn they receive.
> > >
> > Nobody deserves to be scorned based on the number of people that are
> > against them. You have to evaluate a person based on your own
> > experiences with that person or otherwise shut up, that's what Bennie
> > said (I hope) and that's what I agree with.
> >
> 
> There's an old saying "Parents need to correct their children or society
> will do it for them."
> 
> No one is suggesting that you or Bennie should scorn or be a Tholen
> detractor.  At the same time, you cannot say that those of us who think
> Tholen is a kook are in the wrong.  Society has expectations for human
> behavior and when people defy those expectations they pay for it -- as
> Tholen is.  He will always be the object of ridicule on the internet until
> he alters his behavior to fall withint societal norms.  I realize in this
> age of "individuality" that must seem awful but without societal norms, it
> is difficult to have a civilized discussion.
> 
Allright, when have I ever said you were not entitled to your opinion?

I won't even answer to the rest of that paragraph. Anybody who thinks 
that mob justice is an example of "societal norms" is way beyond me 
anyway.

Good night, Brad.

Karel Jansens
jansens_at_ibm_dot_net
=======================================================
If we could have our cake _and_ eat it,
people would start whining about seconds.
=======================================================

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From: malstrom@wilde.oit.umass.edu                      28-Aug-99 16:20:27
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 05:35:21
Subj: Re: Win32 support after all!

From: JM <malstrom@wilde.oit.umass.edu>

Kelly Robinson <ispy@groovyshow.com> wrote:
: www.vmware.com has a groovy new product which lets users run Win32 software!

: Problem is, it's only for Linux...

Wrong David, I have a beta for Win32 sitting on my hard drive.

-Jason

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From: malstrom@wilde.oit.umass.edu                      28-Aug-99 16:28:13
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 05:35:21
Subj: Re: dont blame Gates for IBM not licensing Win32

From: JM <malstrom@wilde.oit.umass.edu>

Kelly Robinson <ispy@groovyshow.com> wrote:
: IBM made Open32, which is a half-assed attempt at Win32 emulation which
: failed.

Wrong David, it's a half-assed attempt of supporting the Win32 API on 
OS/2.  It's currently being used as the basis of the Odin-API project.

: There have been numerous third party fringe organizations who have tried
: making Win32 emulation work also.  Not entirely successful.

Their is also Bochs, which is really slow.  Currently most people are not 
working on emulation but API support and binary conversion.

: If you want Win32 support, get Windows XX or Linux+vmware (vmware also runs
: OS/2 and BeOS)

Wrong David, VMware doesn't run OS/2 or BeOS.  VMWare for Linux also 
costs $150 for personal use only.  If you want Win32 support get windows.

-Jason

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From: tim.timmins@bcs.org.uk                            28-Aug-99 21:36:15
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 05:35:21
Subj: Re: vmware mistake

From: Tim Timmins <tim.timmins@bcs.org.uk>

Looks like the 'subject' is more accurate than the contents.

Regards,
Tim,

Kelly Robinson wrote:

> Oops, I responded that vmware supports OS/2 and Beos.
>
> Check out http://www.vmware.com/support/issues_linux_beta.html
>
> and you'll sadly notice that every OS _EXCEPT_ OS/2 has a higher priority
> for being supported in the near future.
>
> If IBM doesn't give a rat about its product, why should anyone else?1

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From: bwardell@stardock.com                             28-Aug-99 20:39:24
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 05:35:21
Subj: (1/2) Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: "Brad Wardell" <bwardell@stardock.com>

Bennie Nelson wrote in message <37C81547.6FC17BEF@visi.net>...
>Brad Wardell wrote:
>>
>> Bennie Nelson <blnelson@visi.net> wrote in message
>> news:37C753E2.6AF457FF@visi.net...
>> > Brad Wardell wrote:
>> > >
>> > > <andy@callan57.gtri.gatech.edu> wrote in message
>> > > news:slrn7sbo5p.1e6.andy@callan57.gtri.gatech.edu...
>> > > > On Thu, 26 Aug 1999 14:14:35 GMT, Brad Wardell
>> <bwardell@mw.mediaone.net>
>> > > wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > ><andy@callan57.gtri.gatech.edu> wrote in message
>> > > > >news:slrn7s9cir.rh.andy@callan57.gtri.gatech.edu...
>> > > > >> If anyone is interested in an opinion from a lurker:
>> > > > ..snip...
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> Since I'm giving my opinion, I'll also point out that RJ and
Dave
>> > > > >> have beaten Marty in their sub-debate.
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >
>> > > > >You give a reason why you think David "won" his debate but you
don't
>> even
>> > > > >provide a single reason why you think RJ and Dave have beaten
Marty
>> on
>> > > their
>> > > > >sub-debate.  Do you even know what they're debating?
>> > > > >
>> > > > >Brad
>> > > > >
>> > > > I believe so.  In the sub-debate that I was referring to, Marty
>> > > >  seems to feel that Dave was being compared to
>> > > > Jesus Christ and that this particular comparison is important. RJ
and
>> > > > Dave seem to be contending that the Jesus Christ reference was not
the
>> > > > important part of the original argument.
>> > > >
>> > > > I could give reasons why I prefer RJ and Dave's argument, but it
would
>> > > > take much longer than the short reason I gave for David
Sutherland's
>> > > > position.  I didn't intend to participate in either debate, I was
just
>> > > > voting.
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > Marty's point was that the analogy given COULD be interpreted to be
>> > > comparing Tholen to Jesus Christ.  He has never stated that his
interpretion
>> > > is the only one possible.  Whereas Dave (Based on his quoted text)
seems to
>> > > believe that his interpretation is the only interpretation possible.
Bennie
>> > > later clarified what he meant and Marty was ready to let the point
drop but
>> > > Dave seems obsessed in trying to "prove" that Bennie's analogy was
not open
>> > > to any interpretation but his.
>> > >
>> > > So it really comes down to this, in the context of trying to decide
whether
>> > > Dave Tholen is a kook or not based on numbers of detractors, if
someone says
>> > > "Well, Jesus Christ had a lot of detractors too." is it really
unreasonable
>> > > that some people might interpret this to mean that Dave's writing are
wise
>> > > and profound and that his detractors are really equivalent to a
mindless
>> > > mob?  [Note, Interpretation #1]
>> > >
>> > > I would argue that the above interpretation is the logical one to
conclude
>> > > until Bennie clarified because his actual intended meaning was:
>> > >
>> > > You cannot conclude people are kooks and other kinds of undesirables
based
>> > > on having a large detractor to supporter ratio because there are
examples in
>> > > history of people who had a lot of detractors who we agree now
weren't kooks
>> > > or undesirables. [Note, Interpretation #2]
>> > >
>> > > However, this analogy is flawed because of two primary reasons:
>> > >
>> > > 1) His example, Jesus Christ (and another given later Copernicus)
were
>> > > people who were hated because of a specific idea they were preaching.
>> > > Tholen, by contrast, is disliked because of his behavior.  He isn't
trying
>> > > to spread a particular idea or belief.
>> > >
>> > > and
>> > >
>> > > 2) The whole system of consensus is predicated on giving weight to
the
>> > > verdicts of society or at least the majority group.  If we did not
judge
>> > > people to be undesirables based on having a large detractor to
supporter
>> > > ratio then the entire US criminal justice system (trial by a jury of
your
>> > > peers) would not function.  Or in short, generally speaking, if
someone has
>> > > a large number of detractors in ratio to the number of supporters,
then odds
>> > > are there's a reason for valid reason for it.
>> >
>> > Brad,
>> > You've made a gross error here.  The American Experiment takes into
account
>> > the long history of man's inhumanity to man, and especially, the
tyranny of
>> > the majority.  The Founding Fathers of the American Republic chose a
Republican
>> > form of government specifically to address the overwhelming tendencey
of the
>> > majority to be wrong.  The Electoral College, the division of power
into five
>> > parts (the People, the States, the Executive Branch, the Congress, and
the
>> > Federal Judiciary), and the Judicial appeals process are all aimed at
preventing
>> > the rights of individuals from being abbrogated or taken away.
>> >
>>
>> You are confusing rights with verdicts.  Dave Tholen has the right to be
a
>> jerk.  But he is still a jerk.  No one is disputing his right to be a
jerk.
>
>Wrong, again, Brad.  You introduced jurisprudence into the thread.  And
your
>depiction of America's form of government and jurisprudence was quite
flawed.
>So, I called you on it.  You avoided the substance of my reply and, to
cover
>up your gross error concerning the American Experiment you accuse me of
being
>the one who introduced jurisprudence and rights into the thread.
>

I'll concede the point then.  It's not central to the argument.

However, you are still confusing rights and consensus then.

Dave Tholen has the right to be a jerk.  But he is still a jerk.  No one is
disputing his right to be a jerk.



>The rules governing jury selection, jury behavior, and the entire jury
>decision process, are in place because groups of people are known to
>arrive at very bad decisions.
>
>For some further reading on the topic of flawed decision making by a
>majority, I suggest Federalist Papers nos 10, 51, 63, 71, and 73.
>

Every system if "flawed".  As you have pointed out in your analogy, there
have been cases where the majority was just dead wrong in hindsight.  And
you are correct in calling me on using judicial comparisons since Tholen
isn't being accused of something super specific.  I mean, afterall, what
exactly IS a kook or a jerk?  They are nebulous terms that have a general
consensus understanding.

But I would still argue that democracy is by far the best form of government
available to human beings.

>>
>> > What you have described is a democracy: which can be summed up as three
>> > wolves and one sheep voting about what's for lunch.
>> >
>>
>> If a dozen people in a room think Bob's a jerk and only 2 think he's not
a
>> jerk the odds are Bob is a jerk.  And in Tholen's case, it's probably
more
>> like a couple hundred to 1 (given that literally hundreds of people voted
>> him Kook of the Month -- that's a lot of people!) and the number of
people
>> who could be considered "Supporters" are very small.  Even Karel and you
>> claim neutrality -- i.e. you may not be detractors but you are claiming
not
>> to be supporters.
>
>I didn't join the mob who flamed you recently, either.
>

What "mob" would that be?  A couple of people != a mob.

>>
>> You won't get very far in life if you don't make judgement calls purely
>> because exceptions to a given rule exist.
>
>Define "very far in life."
>

If you don't know what that means then I can't help you.

>>
>> Over on comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic people are saying that Tiberium
Sun
>> (C&C 2) is a disappointment and describe why.  A couple of people are
saying
>> it's great but it's like a 10 to 1 ratio or so.  I do not need to go and
buy
>> it to conclude that if I did buy it, I would probably be disappointed
with
>> it.  There exist in history exceptions -- that is, games that most people
>> have loathed that I have liked but they are just that -- exceptions.
>>
>> That is why your analogy is flawed because society doesn't work as you
>> prescribe it should (and thankfully it doesn't).  Simply because Jesus
>> Christ in hindsight did not turn out to be deserving of the hatred he
>> received at the time is not proof that having a large detractor to
supporter
>> ratio is not indicative that the person deserves the scorn they receive.
>
>Brad,
>
>You are quite correct: Society doesn't work that way, but that does not
mean
>my analogy is flawed.  That is the substance of the point I've been trying
>to make.  That's why there are laws protecting the individual from the way
>Society "works."
>
>That has been my point, all along.  I'll say it again in my words:
>
>When a mob has gathered against a person, the behavior and words of the
>mob says more about the mob than the person they've gathered against.
>The words and behavior of the person is what the person should be judged
by.
>

And I believe your statement is utterly incorrect.  The people who flame
Tholen come from extremely varied backgrounds.  All these people who flame
him are very different have different motivations but have one thing in
common -- Tholen.   It is Tholen who needs to do some reflection on his
behavior not "the mob".

>You simply object to what I've said because it could be applied to the case
>of Tholen versus et al.  But, the principle I have been trying to describe
>applies equally to Wardell versus et al.
>

Based on what?  What "mob" are you referring to?  I hang out in a lot of
news groups, do a dejanews search on me, do you see people flaming me
everywhere I go?  I think not.  Other than a few people who are usually
considered kooks themselves (RJ, Tholen, Tim Martin) I don't exactly have a
"mob" of detractors wherever I go.  that's not to say that those 3 people
are the only people who have ever "flamed" me in all the years I'm on Usenet
but generally speaking, I don't get flamed by people.

>If you maintain that my opinion of Dave Tholen should be based upon the
>words of his detractors, then you should also maintain that my opinion
>of you should be based upon the words of your detractors.
>

I am not saying that at all.  You have conveniently thrown out the key word:
RATIO.  The ratio of detractors to supporters for Tholen is very high in
favor of detractors.  The problem is with Tholen, not his detractors.

If most of the people who posted to me flamed me, I would have to assess
that there is something wrong with my behavior.


>You have not been defined in my mind by the words of your detractors as
>revealed in the posts in this newsgroup.  I refuse to allow your detractors
>to dictate to me what my opinion of you should be.  Is there anything wrong
>with that?


I have never argued that you should.  I am a big believer in consensus.  If
you've been reading my posts that should be clear to you.  As I said in
another post, I won't go buy Tiberium Sun, the game, because the consensus
is that the game is a dud.  Similarly, the consensus is that Tholen's a
kook.

No one is saying that you have to agree with that but you cannot say that
the problem is with the people who have formed this consensus.

You can't say to me "Tholen's not a kook".  All you can say is "I don't
think Tholen's a kook" because the consensus is as clear as you can really
get on Usenet about someone, Tholen is one of the least liked people ever to
popular Usenet.

>
>>
>> Hence, with those obvious flaws in your analogy, other possible
>> interpretations become more likely.
>>
>> But simply put, obviously your analogy could be interepreted to mean
other
>> things than you intended simply because people did interpret it
differently.
>> After you clarified what you meant by it, that becomes a different story
but
>> up until that point, multiple interpretations were obviously possible.
>> Hence, Dave's argument that only one interpretation was possible is in
>> error.
>
>The fact that words have multiple meanings is no excuse for refusing to
>discover the intent of the speaker/writer when engaging in a conversation
>with that person.  It is also no excuse for accusing the speaker/writer
>of having said or implied any or all of those alternatives.
>

No one refused.  Marty merely defended that his original interpretation of
your analogy was valid given the data present at the time.  Do you dispute
that?

>You said that to you cooa is a bar.  Since you didn't specify which kind,
>I could have said you meant or implied crowbar, candy bar, musical measure,
>sand bar, etc.
>

I agree completely.  My statement is therefore open to interpretation.
Therefore, I would not argue that only one interpretation is possible.
Similarly, your Christ analogy could have multiple valid interpretations.

I am glad we agree.


>Effective Communication requires:
>
>A) that the speaker/writer carefully chooses words and syntax to convey the
>desired meaning; and
>B) that the hearer/reader must determine the intended meaning from the
context,
>from available definitions and rules of syntax, and through interaction
with
>the speaker/writer.
>
>Failure in the performance of B by the hearer/reader does not constitute or
>even imply an error on the part of the speaker/writer.  The most careful
>selection and arrangement of words cannot in and of itself ensure that the
>ideas will be conveyed intact to every hearer/reader.
>
>It is also plain that failure in the performance of A makes the task of
>performing B much more difficult.
>
>But, an individual who wants to understand ideas should perform B in a
>respectful manner, even when the performance of A is not perfect.
>
>And, a person of understanding, wishing to convey ideas, should be
respectful
>in the performance of A, even when the performance of B is lacking.
>

Who said anything about there being an error on your part?  Marty and Tholen
were arguing whether your analogy as originally stated could have more than
a single interpretation.

I disagree with the point your analogy was trying to make in its indended
form but that's a completely different discussion.


>> > > Tholen's whole argument rests on that there was only 1 possible
>> > > interpretation of Bennie's analogy [#2] when in fact multiple
>> > > interpretations were possible.
>
>Tholen's argument rests on the fact that there is only one meaning assigned
>to the words I wrote: the meaning I assigned to the words.  That is because
>the words are only symbols chosen to represent ideas.  In this case, I
chose
>certain symbols in order to convey to others some ideas I possess.  That
>those same symbols can be and have been chosen by others for other meanings

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: bwardell@stardock.com                             28-Aug-99 20:39:24
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 05:35:21
Subj: (2/2) Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

>is irrelevant to my ideas as represented by the words I chose.



FACT: Your original analogy was interepreted to mean more than one thing.
Therefore, your analogy was obviously open to interpretation.

That doesn't mean you made an error in your stated analogy.

If I say to my wife "You look HOT tonight."

That statement could mean more than 1 thing.  It's not an error on my part
if she takes it to mean that she looks like she's running a temperature.
It's also not an error on her part.

Tholen has been arguing that your analogy could only be taken one way and
that is clearly not the case.

I'm not going to respond again on this because I don't really care enough
about it in relation to how much time it's taking to get this relatively
simple point across.


>
>That these others have chosen to avoid dealing with my ideas does not
reflect
>negatively upon my ideas, my words, or myself.


I agree.  But that doesn't change the FACT that your analogy was interpreted
to mean more things than you intended and that it is not their fault either.
It's not an error on your part OR their part.


Brad


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu                             28-Aug-99 20:49:11
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 05:35:21
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [time's up]

From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu

Marty writes:

>> Brad Wardell writes [to Andy Henshaw]:

>>> But it all comes down to one question:
>>>
>>> Do you agree that multiple interpretations were possible?
 
>> That's not the question, Brad.  The question is whether Marty reached
>> a logical conclusion.

> Time's up Dave.

Irrelevant, Marty.

> I gave you 48 whole hours with no responses from me on this subject,

Your offer involved no mentioning of me at all, Marty.  Your offer was
not restricted to this subject.  You failed to live up to your offer.

> to close up whatever loose ends you felt you had and move on with
> your life. 

Illogical, as Brad posted a new article with misinformation that should
be corrected.

> You have failed to do so.

There is no failure on my part, because I never indicated any acceptance
of your offer.  You failed to live up to your offer.

> Why am I not surprised?

Perhaps because you realize that I never indicated any acceptance of
your offer.

> You have failed to be a reasonable person

On what do you base that ridiculous claim, Marty?

> and accept the gracious "forgive and forget" offer I extended you.

You have no control over what Brad Wardell posted, Marty.

> This after you insult me

What alleged insult, Marty?  That's rather ironic, coming from someone
who insulted me.

> and wrongfully accuse me of the act of which you yourself are guilty.

On what basis do you claim that my accusation was wrongful, Marty?
You did delete text.  Over 200 lines, in fact.

> That's a shame for you.

Your hypocrisy is a shame for you, Marty.

> You have called me unreasonable, even back-dating the statement to
> when I made my interpretation of Bennie's analogy.

Where did I allegedly back-date your statements, Marty?

> I will show you what the word "unreasonable" means in graphic detail.

Do you intend to be an unreasonable person now?

> You have just earned yourself another detractor.

Irrelevant, Marty.

> But I assure you Professor, I'll be anything but typical.

So far, you have been typical.

> Since you are such a pompous stuffed shirt who purports to be the
> guardian of logic in this newsgroup,

Where did I call myself the "guardian of logic", Marty?

> I resolve to show you how obnoxious such a schtick can be.

On what basis do you call it a "schtick", Marty?

> I resolve that I will be a guardian of context in this newsgroup.

And take on people like Brad Wardell?

> Wherever there is a clear removal of important context, I will
> restore it for the aid of whomever you're trying to get away with it
> against next.

How ironic, coming from somebody who removed important context, over
200 lines of it, in fact.  Do you also intend to restore important
context removed by people like Brad Wardell?

> Wherever two contiguous sentences are broken up that form a
> single clear thought, they will be reunited.

Do you expect that to have any effect on the validity of my response,
Marty?

> And wherever unneeded, irrelevant phrases are used, they will be
> removed.

Do you also intend to demonstrate the alleged irrelevance, or do you
intend to arrogantly claim irrelevance without proof?

> By all means Dave, continue your verbal masturbation.

What alleged "verbal masturbation", Marty?

> You've been going at it alone for over 48 hours.

On what basis do you make that claim, Marty?  Care to show some
time stamps?

> A more pathetic wretched excuse for a human being I have not seen
> in all my days.

Did you look in the mirror today?

> To anyone that doesn't wish to see any of these postings, please
> kill-file my address.  I will use a different one when I have
> something important to say.

You just indicated that your forthcoming responses to me using
your current address will be unimportant.  I agree.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu                             28-Aug-99 20:52:00
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 05:35:21
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [rhetorical]

From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu

Gerben Bergman writes:

> [Oh no, not *another* "Tholen emulator" thread!

Not even close, Gerben.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu                             28-Aug-99 20:58:08
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 05:35:21
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu

Brad Wardell writes:

> I didn't vote in either one but I did see the results to one of them

Jason's.

> and it was literally hundreds of people

Yet another Wardell lie.  It was 13, including the usual antagonists,
such as Glatt and Malloy.

> and they listed the people who voted.

Feel free to reproduce the alleged hundreds of people that were
listed, Brad, if you think you can.  Until you do, your accusation
is nothing more than hot air.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tzs@halcyon.com                                   28-Aug-99 13:50:18
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 05:35:21
Subj: Re: vmware mistake

From: tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith)

Kelly Robinson <ispy@groovyshow.com> wrote:
>Oops, I responded that vmware supports OS/2 and Beos.
>
>Check out http://www.vmware.com/support/issues_linux_beta.html
>
>and you'll sadly notice that every OS _EXCEPT_ OS/2 has a higher priority
>for being supported in the near future.
>
>If IBM doesn't give a rat about its product, why should anyone else?1

I'm curious.  Have you ever considered, just for the novelty value, getting
something *right* for once?  Here's what that page says, in the VERY FIRST
FUCKING ITEM ON THE LIST:

    1.Unsupported guest operating systems
    The following guest operating systems do not work with the VMware Beta
    for Linux. These guest operating systems may be supported in a future
    release: 
    - IBM OS/2 and OS/2 Warp

    The following guest operating systems do not work with the VMware Beta
    for Linux. There are currently no plans to support these guest operating
    systems in the near future:
    - BeOS
    - Minix
    - QNX
    - SCO Unix
    - SCO UnixWare
    - Novel Netware Server

Idiot.

--Tim Smith

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: bwardell@mw.mediaone.net                          28-Aug-99 21:10:11
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 05:35:21
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: "Brad Wardell" <bwardell@mw.mediaone.net>

jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens) wrote in message ...
>On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 16:27:30, "Brad Wardell"
><bwardell@mw.mediaone.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> <jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens)> wrote in message
>> news:L9BY9tzSDwrQ-pn2-UdvLdeGXdzIo@localhost...
>> > On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 04:11:29, "Brad Wardell"
>> > <bwardell@mw.mediaone.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > You are confusing rights with verdicts.  Dave Tholen has the right to
be
>> a
>> > > jerk.  But he is still a jerk.  No one is disputing his right to be a
>> jerk.
>> > >
>> > Whoa! What's this about "verdicts"? Nobody, and I mean _nobody_, in
>> > this NG has been appointed judge. People can have all the opinions
>> > they want, and everybody is free to vent them as much as they want to,
>> > but there is absolutely no way any opinion, no matter how many
>> > "supporters" it has, gets the status of law or verdict.
>> >
>>
>> The term "verdict" exists outside of court, Bennie.  Do you prefer the
word
>> "Consensus"?  It's just semantics.
>>
>No, it's not. "Verdict" implies a court and a judge. But I guess it
>does show how you like to see yourself.

Maybe it's because you're in Europe and verdict has a different meaning.
People here use the word "verdict" all the time.  Software reviews, casual
discussion, etc.  I'll assume it's just a cultural difference no point
arguing it.

>>
>> > > > What you have described is a democracy: which can be summed up as
>> three
>> > > > wolves and one sheep voting about what's for lunch.
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > If a dozen people in a room think Bob's a jerk and only 2 think he's
not
>> a
>> > > jerk the odds are Bob is a jerk.
>> >
>> > No, the only thing that proves is that 12 people think Bob is a jerk.
>> > Thoughts do not equal reality, opinions do not equal a person. And
>> > _that_ was the real meaning of Bennie's analogies.
>>
>> I don't even know how to respond to this, it's...so naive it's amazing.
Are
>> you a college student?
>>

note no response.

>> Let me use a real world example:
>>
>> I move into a new neighborhood of people that has 12 houses on the block.
>> At the yearly neighborhood association I talk to my neighbors and they
keep
>> mentioning how one neighbor, Bob, is just a complete jerk.  Over and over
at
>> this meeting I keep hearing this.
>>
>> When I leave the meeting, I am probably going to conclude that Bob is
>> probably a jerk.  I'm going to try to withold final judgement until I
meet
>> Bob but odds are, Bob is a jerk and at the very least, there is something
>> about Bob that seems to anger his neighbors that he should really look at
>> changing if he wants to get along with people.
>>
>> Now, this has real live implications.  So I go home and Bob comes over to
my
>> house and wants to borrow my lawn mower.  Well, normally I wouldn't think
>> twice of lending a neighbor my lawnmower but after hearing all this
>> negativity on Bob, I decide not to until I learn more about Bob.
>>
>> Now how this analogy relates to Tholen.
>>
>> A new user comes to this news group and they keep hearing how people
think
>> Dave Tholen is a complete jerk or kook.  A good chunk of the topics
either
>> have his name in them in a derisive way or are about him and are just
>> flaming him.  A new user is going to conclude that odds are, Dave's a
real
>> jerk or at the very least, there's something about Dave that annoys a lot
of
>> people that Dave should really look at if he wants to get along with
people.
>>
>> But in this case, there's more, people are also providing examples of
Dave's
>> behavior which include illogical arguments, massive hypocricy,
intentionally
>> being antagnostic by going into other discussions not about him and
>> antagonizing people.  And unlike the neighborhood example, there's even a
>> database called DejaNews where people can see Dave's own words.
>>
>Brad, the only thing you've proven here is that you are apparently
>extremely prone to prejudice, and very easily influenced by others.
>The scary part is that you actually seem to think that that is a
>_good_ thing.
>

Well, you live in your nice perfect universe and I'll live on Earth okay?

I'd love to know what you actually do for a living.  It obviously must not
involve very much decision making since you seem to think that listening to
others is a bad thing.    People have to make decisions for themselves but a
wise person will listen to the consensus of the majority and factor that
into their decision.  They shouldn't let the majority be the sole
determination but it should be something they factor in.


>For the very last time: I don't really care how you feel or think
>about Dave Tholen; given what you have just told me, it's extremely
>unlikely that your opinion will ever influence mine. I don't even care
>much about your argument with him: it's nigh three years old and
>completely outdated anyway.
>

But you obviously care since you keep harping on how people can't make a
determination on whether he's a kook or not.

I don't care if you like Tholen or not, it makes no difference to me.
People keep telling you that in fact and you keep acting as if people are
demanding you take a side.  NOBODY CARES WHETHER YOU TAKE A SIDE OR NOT.
But if you're going to question our motivations we're going to provide our
side of the argument.

>Just one more thing: you _do_ realise that to all the participants and
>lurkers in this group you are representing Stardock Systems, don't
>you? I mean, I can make a complete arse of myself and Dave Tholen can
>be as obnoxious as he wants to be, neither of us are going to lose
>even a cent in that. But if you should start painting yourself as a
>prejudiced bigot, don't you think that would reflect in your business?
>Oh, I know, everybody posting here is completely gaga anyway, but
>you'll never know how many people read this every day and never post
>to this group. They're the smart ones, Brad. The ones that buy
>software.
>

If your opinion actually carried weight it might matter.  Sure, some OS/2
user might think what I say somehow represents Stardock.   But in the bigger
software world, I'm just some guy who's day job is workin at a softare
company.  Why, is everything you say here representing your employer?  Is
Brad Barclay representing IBM?  Is Dave Tholen representing the University
of Hawaii?

I wasn't aware that I was paid on a commission.  Gee, I thought I was
salaried like you probably are.  If people are going to make buying
decisions based on the personality of an employee of the company then well,
that person should probably reevaluate their purchase making process.  I
tend to buy things based on the value of the product or service not based on
whether some guy on the Internet agrees with the buyer's views or not.

So now I'm a "prejudiced bigot" simply because I take into account what
people believe when forming an opinion?  Wow, I choose not to buy a video
game because everyone's posting it sucks and now I'm a "biggot".


>Even Windows software. (OK, so those are the not so smart ones)


Speaking of prejudiced bigots...


>> >

>> > > You won't get very far in life if you don't make judgement calls
purely
>> > > because exceptions to a given rule exist.
>> > >
>> > Neither if you make all your judgment calls based on the opinions of
>> > others.
>>
>> I think Icould argue I've already "made it far" and I do make judgement
>> calls based on other opinions every day.  I have to, I don't have time to
>> micro manage every little thing that goes on where I work.  I have people
>> who provide opinions on things that I then have to make a decision based
on
>> their opinons.
>>
>Yes, I now know what kind of person you are.


Oh yea, "a prejudiced bigot" because I don't personally go and decide for
myself every petty detail in life before making a judgement call.

I suppose if you were in a restraunt and everyone was vomitting because of
food poisoning and they served you your food you would go ahead and eat it
yourself without a second thought since you would want to make that
determination personally?  Only after you were barfing your brains out would
you make a judgement call right?



>> >
>> > OK, let me rephrase that: you probably _will_ get very far, but you
>> > won't be the kind of person I'd like to be in the same room for more
>> > than five minutes with.
>> >
>>
>> I think I can live with that.  You wouldn't have time to spend 5 minutes
>> with people, you'll be too busy running around verifying every
>> inconsequential to important "Fact" for yourself.
>>
>Indeed.


So Karel, why don't you tell us exactly what you do for a living then?  You
seem to be a "true free spirit" living amongst us fascist ignorant sheep.

>
>> I wonder how many seconds you'd last in the military.  Leaders have to
take
>> the opinions of their subordinates or the morale of their troops into
>> consideration when making a judgement call all the time.
>>
>They didn't like me in the army. I had the unnerving habit of asking
>"why?" at too many wrong moments. I still see my old sergeant from
>time to time (it's been fifteen years now), and she once admitted that
>I was the reason she quit the service (the why's seemed to stick, she
>said). She's now quite successfully running a small supermarket.
>

I see.  So, do you think that you are representative of the general
population then?


>> Or I wonder how long you'd last in an executive position at a company
>> without relying on the opinions of others.
>>
>Of course I rely on other people's opinions. It's the opinion of the
>people I don't trust anybody with.
>

So you've never had a position of any real responsibility?  You've never
hired anyone of course then.

>> > > Over on comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic people are saying that
Tiberium
>> Sun
>> > > (C&C 2) is a disappointment and describe why.  A couple of people are
>> saying
>> > > it's great but it's like a 10 to 1 ratio or so.  I do not need to go
and
>> buy
>> > > it to conclude that if I did buy it, I would probably be disappointed
>> with
>> > > it.  There exist in history exceptions -- that is, games that most
>> people
>> > > have loathed that I have liked but they are just that -- exceptions.
>> > >
>> > You're still arguing with statistics, Brad. I'll burn in hell before I
>> > let my judgment of a person depend on bloody statistics.
>>
>> So in other words, you'd go buy it for yourself to find out it sucks and
>> return it.
>>
>Sheesh, Brad. That's life.
>If you buy a game everybody says it's great and it sucks marrow for
>you, what're you gonna do?
>

I've never argued that the majority is always right.  The probability is
that if everyone likes a movie or a game or a TV show that I'll probably
like it too.  That doesn't mean I will though.

You, on the other hand, would dismiss whether everyone hated a movie and go
see it anyway no matter what simply because you proudly give no weight to
the value judgements of other people.


>> There's an old saying "Parents need to correct their children or society
>> will do it for them."
>>
>> No one is suggesting that you or Bennie should scorn or be a Tholen
>> detractor.  At the same time, you cannot say that those of us who think
>> Tholen is a kook are in the wrong.  Society has expectations for human
>> behavior and when people defy those expectations they pay for it -- as
>> Tholen is.  He will always be the object of ridicule on the internet
until
>> he alters his behavior to fall withint societal norms.  I realize in this
>> age of "individuality" that must seem awful but without societal norms,
it
>> is difficult to have a civilized discussion.
>>
>Allright, when have I ever said you were not entitled to your opinion?
>
>I won't even answer to the rest of that paragraph. Anybody who thinks
>that mob justice is an example of "societal norms" is way beyond me
>anyway.
>

"mob justice"?  Who has suggested such a thing?  Your problem seems to be
that your bias's as so ingrained in you that you don't even realize them as
bias's.

Our basic disagreement can be summed up succinctly (despite this massively
long discussion)

People on multiple newsgroups think Tholen's a jerk and a kook and worse.
In fact, ratio-wise, of the people who post to Tholen the number of
detractors to supporters is very much in favor of the detractors.

I think a reasonable human being can conclude that the problem lies with
Tholen -- not the detractors.

You seem to disagree.  That's your right.  However, my opinion does not make
me a "prejudiced bigot" (as opposed to a non-prejudiced bigot??).

>Good night, Brad.
>
>Karel Jansens
>jansens_at_ibm_dot_net
>=======================================================
>If we could have our cake _and_ eat it,
>people would start whining about seconds.
>=======================================================


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu                             28-Aug-99 21:06:08
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 05:35:21
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu

Brad Wardell writes:

> Andy Henshaw wrote:

>> Brad Wardell wrote:

>> ..snip...

>>> But it all comes down to one question:
>>>
>>> Do you agree that multiple interpretations were possible?  Not whether
>>> you agreed with Marty's interpretation, you only need to accept (or not
>>> accept) that Marty's interpretation was one possible interpretation.

>> Hmm.  I think that the question is a different one.  It looks like
>> Dave is addressing that in his followup; therefore, I'll try
>> to retreat to lurking.

> Don't let Dave or I make your mind up for you.

He's not, Brad.  He's noting the difference between valid interpretations
and possible interpretations (which can include invalid ones).

> Dave will simply change what the topic was about.

Yet another Wardell lie.  Indeed, you're the one who, in the course of
a single posting, changed your own argument from possible interpretations
to valid interpretations.

> The posts are still here, you can read them for yourself.

What do you think he's been doing, Brad?  Meanwhile, you haven't been.

> Marty quite clearly was stating that there was nothing wrong with
> his interpretation of Bennie's analogy before Bennie clarified precisely
> what he meant.

Marty quite clearly was stating that there was nothing wrong with his
interprertation of Bennie's analogy *after* Bennie's unnecessary
clarification.

> Marty was not the only one who took the analogy that way.

He's not the only person who was illogical, Brad.

> In fact, several people took the analogy differently than Bennie
> intended.

Several people were illogical, Brad.

> I think that makes it obvious that the analogy was not precise enough
> before clarification not to be open to multiple interpretations.

On the contrary, it was, Brad.  See my homework paper example for a
reason why your statement is illogical.

> All of Dave's "truth by proclamation" cannot change that.

Simple logic can change that, Brad.

> Remember Forest Gump's "Life is like a box of chocolates..."  In
> Tholen's universe, that statement must only have one valid
> interpretation.

I see you're back to valid interpretations.  WHat happened to possible
interpretations, Brad?

> But normal people would agree that you can take that analogy quite a
> few different ways.

And how is the analogy allegedly appropriate to the current situation,
Brad?

> What you'll witness Dave trying to do is obfuscate this into a giant
> multipage argument on tons of rather irrelevant things

How ironic, coming from the person who tried to obfuscate the situation
by switching from possible interpretations to valid interpretations.

> but it still boils down to one question, could Bennie's analogy be
> reasonably interpreted in multiple ways?

THat's not the question, Brad.  The question is whether Marty's
interpretation is logical or not.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               28-Aug-99 17:20:12
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 05:35:21
Subj: Re: dont blame Gates for IBM not licensing Win32

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

JM wrote:
> 
> Kelly Robinson <ispy@groovyshow.com> wrote:
> : IBM made Open32, which is a half-assed attempt at Win32 emulation which
> : failed.
> 
> Wrong David, it's a half-assed attempt of supporting the Win32 API on
> OS/2.  It's currently being used as the basis of the Odin-API project.
         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

On what basis do you make this claim?

- Marty

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu                             28-Aug-99 21:11:27
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 05:35:21
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu

Karel Jansens writes [to Brad Wardell]:

> I don't even care much about your argument with him: it's nigh three
> years old and completely outdated anyway.

But the evidence is still useful.

> Just one more thing: you _do_ realise that to all the participants and
> lurkers in this group you are representing Stardock Systems, don't 
> you? I mean, I can make a complete arse of myself and Dave Tholen can 
> be as obnoxious as he wants to be, neither of us are going to lose 
> even a cent in that. But if you should start painting yourself as a 
> prejudiced bigot, don't you think that would reflect in your business?

I've already been told privately that Stardock products would be
avoided because of Brad's behavior here.  One person even told me
that he emailed that statement directly to Brad.  Brad just treated
him the same way he treats me.

> I won't even answer to the rest of that paragraph. Anybody who thinks 
> that mob justice is an example of "societal norms" is way beyond me 
> anyway.

Bravo!  But it's a wonderful example of Brad's brand of reasoning.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu                             28-Aug-99 21:19:06
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 05:35:21
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu

Marty writes:

>> Marty reached a logical conclusion.

That is *NOT* what I wrote, Marty.

So much for your claim that you would restore context.  I see you've
added forgery to your lie.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu                             28-Aug-99 21:21:11
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 05:35:21
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu

Marty writes:

>> You're the one arguing with [...] a jerk, Brad.

So much for your alleged restoration of context, Marty.  Hypocrite.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu                             28-Aug-99 21:20:13
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 05:35:21
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu

Marty writes:

>> Yes [...] the interpretation is logical, Brad.

So much for your alleged restoration of context, Marty.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu                             28-Aug-99 21:27:15
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 05:35:21
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu

Bennie Nelson writes [to Brad Wardell]:

> Wrong, again, Brad.  You introduced jurisprudence into the thread.
> And your depiction of America's form of government and jurisprudence
> was quite flawed.  So, I called you on it.  You avoided the substance
> of my reply and, to cover up your gross error concerning the American
> Experiment you accuse me of being the one who introduced jurisprudence
> and rights into the thread.

You're witnessing the same sort of debating tactics that Brad has
used against me.

> Tholen's argument rests on the fact that there is only one meaning
> assigned to the words I wrote: the meaning I assigned to the words.

Not quite.  My argument rests on the fact that Marty's interpretation
is illogical.

Note:  I expect Marty to continue his ridiculous practice of altering
what I've written above to change the meaning to its opposite.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu                             28-Aug-99 21:29:14
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 05:35:21
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu

Bennie Nelson writes:

> I believe I've used the words "irksome" and "antagonistic" in describing
> Tholen's posts.  But, as you've said, Tholen has a right to post words
> that people find irksome and antagonistic. 

And others have a right to call those words whatever they want, even
if they have no valid reason for doing so.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: jkobal@NOSPAMus.ibm.com                           28-Aug-99 16:27:27
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 05:35:21
Subj: Re: dont blame Gates for IBM not licensing Win32

From: "Jeffrey S. Kobal" <jkobal@NOSPAMus.ibm.com>

Darin McBride wrote:

> Actually, Lotus made Open32.  IBM took it over when Lotus was done with it.

Actually, Lotus started what would later be called Open32, and IBM finished it
with cooperation from Lotus.

Jeffrey S. Kobal
IBM Corporation
(Former member of the Open32 Development Team)


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu                             28-Aug-99 21:33:03
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 05:35:21
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu

Brad Wardell writes [to Bennie Nelson]:

> Then you need to address why the contemporay judgement in this case
> may not be right.

He already has, Brad.

> Galileo was arguing a scientific fact that could be proven in time.

I've been arguing facts as well, Brad.

> But you need to provide a reason why you think Tholen's behavior
> will some day be celebrated instead of despised.

How ironic, coming from someone whose abusive behavior should be
despised.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               28-Aug-99 17:57:11
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 05:35:21
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [time's up] [context guard]

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu wrote:
> 
> Marty writes:
> 
> >> Brad Wardell writes [to Andy Henshaw]:
> 
> >>> But it all comes down to one question:
> >>>
> >>> Do you agree that multiple interpretations were possible?
> 
> >> That's not the question, Brad.  The question is whether Marty reached
> >> a logical conclusion.
> 
> > Time's up Dave.  I gave you 48 whole hours with no responses from me on
this 
> > subject, to close up whatever loose ends you felt you had and move on with 

> > your life.  You have failed to do so.  Why am I not surprised?  You have
> > failed to be a reasonable person and accept the gracious "forgive and 
> > forget" offer I extended you.  This after you insult me and wrongfully 
> > accuse me of the act of which you yourself are guilty.  That's a shame for 

> > you.  You have called me unreasonable, even back-dating the statement to 
> > when I made my interpretation of Bennie's analogy.  I will show you what
the 
> > word "unreasonable" means in graphic detail.  You have just earned
yourself 
> > another detractor.  But I assure you Professor, I'll be anything but
typical.  
> 
> [...] Your offer involved [...] this subject.  You [...] live up 
> to your offer.  Illogical [...] misinformation [...] should be corrected.  
> There is [...] failure on my part, because I [...] indicated [...] You did 
> delete text.  Over 200 lines, in fact.  [...] hypocrisy is [...] Where [...] 
I 
> allegedly back-date your statements [...] to be an unreasonable person [...]

> > Since you are such a pompous stuffed shirt who purports to be the guardian 
 
> > of logic in this newsgroup, I resolve to show you how obnoxious such a 
> > schtick can be.  I resolve that I will be a guardian of context in this 
> > newsgroup.  Wherever there is a clear removal of important context, I will 

> > restore it for the aid of whomever you're trying to get away with it
against 
> > next.  Wherever two contiguous sentences are broken up that form a single
clear 
> > thought, they will be reunited.  And wherever unneeded, irrelevant phrases 
are 
> > used, they will be removed.
> 
> [...] I call myself [...] somebody who removed important context, over 200 
> lines of it, in fact.  Do you also intend to restore important context
removed 
> by [...] my response, Marty?  Do you also intend to demonstrate the alleged 
> irrelevance, or do you intend to [...] claim irrelevance [...]?

> > By all means Dave, continue your verbal masturbation.  You've been going
at 
> > it alone for over 48 hours.  A more pathetic wretched excuse for a human 
> > being I have not seen in all my days.
> 
> What alleged "verbal masturbation", Marty?  On what basis do you make that 
> claim, Marty?  Care to show some [...] mirror today?

> > To anyone that doesn't wish to see any of these postings, please
> > kill-file my address.  I will use a different one when I have
> > something important to say.
> 
> You just indicated [...] responses to me [...] will be unimportant.  I
agree.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu                             28-Aug-99 22:00:03
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 05:35:21
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu

Brad Wardell writes:

> Karel Jansens wrote:

>> No, the only thing that proves is that 12 people think Bob is a jerk.
>> Thoughts do not equal reality, opinions do not equal a person. And
>> _that_ was the real meaning of Bennie's analogies.

> I don't even know how to respond to this, it's...so naive it's amazing.

What's allegedly naive about it, Brad?

> Are you a college student?

What does that have to do with it, Brad?

> Let me use a real world example:
>
> I move into a new neighborhood of people that has 12 houses on the block.
> At the yearly neighborhood association I talk to my neighbors and they
> keep mentioning how one neighbor, Bob, is just a complete jerk.  Over
> and over at this meeting I keep hearing this.

But your neighbors are "jerks" themselves, Brad.

> When I leave the meeting, I am probably going to conclude that Bob is
> probably a jerk.

Illogically.

> I'm going to try to withold final judgement until I meet Bob but odds
> are, Bob is a jerk

Illogical, Brad.

> and at the very least, there is something about Bob that seems to anger
> his neighbors that he should really look at changing if he wants to get
> along with people.

In reality, it could mean that there is something about the neighbors
that they should really look at changing.

> Now, this has real live implications.  So I go home and Bob comes over
> to my house and wants to borrow my lawn mower.  Well, normally I wouldn't
> think twice of lending a neighbor my lawnmower but after hearing all this
> negativity on Bob, I decide not to until I learn more about Bob.

Typical inappropriate analogy, given that no loaning is involved here,
Brad.  Nobody in this newsgroup has entrusted personal property to me.

> Now how this analogy relates to Tholen.

It doesn't.

> A new user comes to this news group and they keep hearing how people
> think Dave Tholen is a complete jerk or kook.

But they hear it from jerks.

> A good chunk of the topics either have his name in them in a derisive
> way or are about him and are just flaming him.

Which demonstrates the behavior of those so-called detractors.

> A new user is going to conclude that odds are, Dave's a real jerk

Illogically.

> or at the very least, there's something about Dave that annoys a lot
> of people

Who happen to be trying to spread FUD.

> that Dave should really look at if he wants to get along with people.

I have no interest in trying to "get along with" the likes of Joe Malloy
and Jeff Glatt, Brad.

> But in this case, there's more, people are also providing examples of
> Dave's behavior which include illogical arguments,

What allegedly illogical arguments, Brad?

> massive hypocricy,

What alleged hypocrisy, Brad?

> intentionally being antagnostic by going into other discussions not
> about him and antagonizing people.

What alleged antagonism, Brad?  You said that people are providing
examples, but where are yours?

> And unlike the neighborhood example, there's even a database
> called DejaNews where people can see Dave's own words.

And learn the truth, as opposed to lies like your claim that a certain
URL contains mostly anti-Tholen postings in other newsgroups.

> Huh?  You're the one arguing for Bennie's analogy.  I am merely
> demonstrating why it is flawed.

Impossible, given that it isn't flawed, for reasons that I've already
demonstrated in previous responses to you.

> No one asked you to jump in and say "We can't conclude Dave's a kook
> just because so many people think he's a jerk -- look at Christ and
> Galileo, they were hated in their times too but now look at the
> opinon of them!"

Since when does somebody have to be asked to correct a logical error,
Brad?

> Your statement simply doesn't apply for the reasons that have been
> stated over and over.

How ironic, coming from someone whose statement simply doesn't apply.

> So don't act like we're forcing upon you this supporter/detractor
> thing.

Why shouldn't he, Brad?

> You're trying to argue that we can't conclude there's something wrong
> with Dave just because so many people despise him.

And he's correct to make that argument, Brad.

> In real life, people do that all the time and it's constructive
> towards making people more socialable.

Hasn't worked on you so far, Brad.

> I highly doubt Dave behaves like he does in "real life" like he does
> here because he wouldn't get far.

The difference is that other people don't behave the way you do, and
Glatt, and Malloy, and Sutherland, and Jason S., and Stuyck, and...

> Society has certain behavior expectations

Yes.  Society doesn't expect people to insult pictures the way Stuyck
did.  Society doesn't expect people to lie the way you have.  Society
doesn't expect people to go around campaigning for some tongue-in-cheek
poll the way Jason S. did.

> and when people don't meet them, they end up like Dave, outcasts.

I don't mind being outcast by people like you, Glatt, Malloy, Stuyck,
Jason S.,Sutherland...

> I realize that individuality and "being different" are celebrated but
> they are also quite mythic.

Hawkeye:      "What about individuality, Frank?"
Frank Burns:  "Individuality is fine, as long as we do it together."

> When it comes to social interaction, people have certain basic
> expectations.

This person doesn't expect people to argue using insults, hypocrisy,
and lies, the way you have, Brad.

> I think Icould argue I've already "made it far"

And you apparently have no idea how far I've made it, Brad.

> No one is suggesting that you or Bennie should scorn or be a Tholen
> detractor.  At the same time, you cannot say that those of us who think
> Tholen is a kook are in the wrong.

He can say that your ratio of detractors to supporters evidence isn't
logical, Brad.

> Society has expectations for human behavior

Yes.  Society doesn't expect people to insult pictures the way Stuyck
did.  Society doesn't expect people to lie the way you have.  Society
doesn't expect people to go around campaigning for some tongue-in-cheek
poll the way Jason S. did.

> and when people defy those expectations they pay for it -- as
> Tholen is.

It's you and the others who are defying those expectations, Brad.

> He will always be the object of ridicule on the internet until
> he alters his behavior

Incorrect, Brad.  Many other newsgroups that I participate in are
just fine.  It's your behavior and that of the other antagonists
that needs to be changed.

> to fall withint societal norms.

Do you consider your lies to fall within societal norms, Brad?

> I realize in this age of "individuality" that must seem awful but
> without societal norms, it is difficult to have a civilized discussion.

You're erroneously presupposing that your own norms represent societal
norms, Brad.  They do not.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               28-Aug-99 18:18:17
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 05:35:21
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [rhetorical]

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu wrote:
> 
> Gerben Bergman writes:
> 
> > [Oh no, not *another* "Tholen emulator" thread!
> 
> Not even close, Gerben.

Yeah.  The other Tholen emulator threads are much closer to the real thing.

- Marty

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               28-Aug-99 18:24:27
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 05:35:21
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu wrote:
> 
> Marty writes:
> 
> >> Marty reached a logical conclusion.
> 
> That is *NOT* what I wrote, Marty.

Nor what I wrote.  I wrote:
[...] Marty reached a logical conclusion.

These are your words Dave.  Do you wish to deny that?

- Marty

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               28-Aug-99 15:26:17
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 05:35:21
Subj: Re: dont blame Gates for IBM not licensing Win32

From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste)

On 28 Aug 1999 16:28:26 -0500, JM recycled some holes into the following
pattern:

>Kelly Robinson <ispy@groovyshow.com> wrote:
>: IBM made Open32, which is a half-assed attempt at Win32 emulation which
>: failed.
>
>Wrong David, it's a half-assed attempt of supporting the Win32 API on 
>OS/2.  It's currently being used as the basis of the Odin-API project.

According to Marty, they're having to rewrite most of it. I seem to remember
that Timur reported that a lot of it was terribly slow.

>: There have been numerous third party fringe organizations who have tried
>: making Win32 emulation work also.  Not entirely successful.
>
>Their is also Bochs, which is really slow.  Currently most people are not 
>working on emulation but API support and binary conversion.
>
>: If you want Win32 support, get Windows XX or Linux+vmware (vmware also runs
>: OS/2 and BeOS)
>
>Wrong David, VMware doesn't run OS/2 or BeOS.  VMWare for Linux also 
>costs $150 for personal use only.  If you want Win32 support get windows.
>
>-Jason

I'll agree with that. Trying to run WIN32 software on other operating
systems is just going around Robin Hood's barn.

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"My hovercraft is full of eels."

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu                             28-Aug-99 22:19:18
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 05:35:21
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu

Brad Wardell writes [to Bennie Nelson]:

> Dave Tholen has the right to be a jerk.  But he is still a jerk.

Prove it, Brad, if you think you can.  Some ratio of detractors to
supporters isn't proof.  Heck, you haven't even substantiated your
ratio.

> I mean, afterall, what exactly IS a kook or a jerk?

Check your dictionary, Brad.

> And I believe your statement is utterly incorrect.

What you believe is irrelevant, Brad.

> The people who flame Tholen come from extremely varied backgrounds.

But they share a characteristic, namely that they try to get out of
losing arguments with insults.

> All these people who flame him are very different have different
> motivations but have one thing in common -- Tholen.

Incorrect, Brad.  I'm not the only person they abuse here.

> It is Tholen who needs to do some reflection on his behavior not
> "the mob".

I'm not the one arguing with insults, Brad.

> I hang out in a lot of news groups, do a dejanews search on me, do you
> see people flaming me everywhere I go?

Not everywhere.

> I think not.

Nor do people flame me everywhere, Brad.

> Other than a few people who are usually considered kooks themselves
> (RJ, Tholen, Tim Martin) I don't exactly have a "mob" of detractors
> wherever I go.

Nobody accused you of having detractors "wherever" you go, Brad.
Meanwhile, you lied when you claimed that a certain URL contains
mostly anti-Tholen postings in other newsgroups.

> that's not to say that those 3 people are the only people who have
> ever "flamed" me in all the years I'm on Usenet but generally
> speaking, I don't get flamed by people.

Generally speaking, I don't get flamed by people.

> You have conveniently thrown out the key word: RATIO.  The ratio of
> detractors to supporters for Tholen is very high in favor of detractors.

You have conveniently thrown out the proof.

> The problem is with Tholen, not his detractors.

Balderdash, Brad.  I'm not the one arguing with insults.

> If most of the people who posted to me flamed me, I would have to assess
> that there is something wrong with my behavior.

If you argued against those people with insults, Brad, you would get
flamed by most of them.

> Similarly, the consensus is that Tholen's a kook.

Incorrect, Brad.  On what do you base that alleged consensus?

> You can't say to me "Tholen's not a kook".

Sure he can, Brad, in the same way that you say I am.

> All you can say is "I don't think Tholen's a kook"

How ironic, coming from someone who has claimed that I am a kook.

> because the consensus is as clear as you can really get on Usenet
> about someone,

On what basis do you claim the consensus is clear, Brad?

> Tholen is one of the least liked people ever to popular Usenet.

Prove it, Brad, if you think you can.  You failed miserably when
you posted a URL that supposedly contained mostly anti-Tholen postings.

> Marty merely defended that his original interpretation of your analogy
> was valid given the data present at the time.

I see you've shifted gears once again.  Before you were talking about it
being possible, as opposed to being valid, which it isn't.

> Who said anything about there being an error on your part?

You did, Brad.  You called Bennie's analogy "flawed".

> Marty and Tholen were arguing whether your analogy as originally stated
> could have more than a single interpretation.

Incorrect, Brad.  Marty and I were arguing over whether Marty's
interpretation is logical.

> FACT: Your original analogy was interepreted to mean more than one thing.

FACT:  One of those interpretations is illogical.

> Therefore, your analogy was obviously open to interpretation.

Illogically.

> That doesn't mean you made an error in your stated analogy.

Then why did you call it "flawed", Brad?

> If I say to my wife "You look HOT tonight."
>
> That statement could mean more than 1 thing.  It's not an error on my part
> if she takes it to mean that she looks like she's running a temperature.
> It's also not an error on her part.

Then why did you claim it was a misinterpretation on my part when I took
your "don't buy" to mean "don't buy", Brad?  Hypocrite.

> Tholen has been arguing that your analogy could only be taken one way
> and that is clearly not the case.

Incorrect, Brad.  I've been arguing that Marty's interpretation is
illogical.

> I'm not going to respond again on this because I don't really care enough
> about it in relation to how much time it's taking to get this relatively
> simple point across.

Having lost the argument, you're running away.  Again.

> But that doesn't change the FACT that your analogy was interpreted to
> mean more things than you intended and that it is not their fault either.

The illogic of that interpretation is their fault, Brad.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu                             28-Aug-99 22:20:26
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 05:35:21
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [time's up] [context guard]

From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu

Marty writes:

>> You just indicated [...] responses to me [...] will be unimportant.  I
agree.

Posting another unimportant response, eh Marty?

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From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu                             28-Aug-99 22:21:13
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 05:35:21
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [rhetorical]

From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu

Marty writes:

>> Gerben Bergman writes:

>>> [Oh no, not *another* "Tholen emulator" thread!
 
>> Not even close, Gerben.

> Yeah.  The other Tholen emulator threads are much closer to the real thing.

On what basis do you make that claim, Marty?

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu                             28-Aug-99 22:26:04
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 05:35:21
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [rhetorical]

From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu

Karel Jansens writes:

>>>>> We've disagreed on several points, sometimes even quite expressively. 
>>>>> None of them "erupted" into the behaviour you all call typical of Dave
>>>>> Tholen.

>>>> Of course not, because *you* didn't argue with the behavior typical of
>>>> the so-called "detractors".

>>> I don't try to do _any_ behaviour. I try very hard to be me (I'm 
>>> getting better at it, so people tell me).

>> "I've got to be me,
>>  I've got to be me!"
>>
>> I can hear the music to go with those words.

>>> [snip]

>>>>> OK, I own up: I use OS/2 and I hate Microsoft products. No, I really 
>>>>> do: they're crap. The last worthwile thing they made was the original 
>>>>> Microsoft mouse, and I even chucked that one out in favour of a 
>>>>> trackball thingie. I do have problems with TM, though, so I guess I 
>>>>> don't fall into that category then?

>>>> I also own a couple of original Microsoft Mice.  Both have turned what I
>>>> call "skittish", meaning that the mouse pointer does not move predictably
>>>> based on the mouse movement.  They have developed a tendency to jump,
>>>> even after the rollers have been cleaned.  The newer Microsoft Mouse that
>>>> came with my new office PC has the "ergonomic" shape, and has so far been
>>>> reliable, but it's only a year old.  The original mice lasted at least
>>>> that long.

>>> I found it a pretty good rodent. It got dirty, yes, but so do all mice
>>> with balls <G - Wait! I re-read that and now it's ROTFLMAO!>.

>> Must be male?
>>
>> The problem with mice is when they encounter some foreign matter, such as
>> a hair, on the surface they're rolling over.  The mouse pointer just
>> stops moving in that one direction.

>>> Never any of the jumpyness, though. The trackball I have now is a little 
>>> cool thing you can hold in your hand. Pressing the ball gives you a 
>>> left click (no middle button, which is a hassle under Linux, but 
>>> becoming less and less so, due to less Linux). Now I can lay back and 
>>> read cooa (I still tend to jump up and curse a lot, but no trackball 
>>> is likely going to change that <G>).

>> Trackballs tend to get slippery with skins oils.  I've grown quite
>> accustomed to the TrackPoint used on ThinkPads.  Took a little getting
>> accustomed to it, but I like it better than the touch pads.

> I deeply hate touchpads. The little eraserpoints are better, but I 
> still lack tactile feedback: I like to go somewhere when I move the 
> pointer on the screen, if you know what I mean.

No, I don't.  The mouse buttons still have tactile feedback.  The
device that moves the pointer doesn't, on touchpads, track points,
track balls, and mice.

> I've been seriously contemplating forking out for a touch-screen 
> monitor and sink that into my worktop, so that it would only protrude 
> a couple of centimeters. Or maybe buy one of those lightpens; I worked
> with one that had drivers for Warp and it had a pretty good 
> resolution, good enough for serious graphics work (I tried tablets, 
> but I loose hand-eye coordination very quickly).

I've seen touch screens in retail locations (the Muse at Tower Records,
for example).  I find them to not work more often than they do work.
And I dislike finger smears on monitor screens.

>>>> I also still use the Microsoft FORTRAN compiler when I need to create a
>>>> 16-bit executable for somebody running DOS.  It has some bugs that were
>>>> reported, acknowledged as reproducible by the developers, but never
fixed,
>>>> even after four years.  Microsoft has since discontinued development of
>>>> their FORTRAN compiler, referring customers to Digital (now Compaq)
>>>> instead.

>>> Sorry, I try not to program, especially not in FORTRAN.

>> Still a good choice for number-crunching applications.  You really
>> should look into the latest standard, namely Fortran 95, if your
>> objections are due to lack of certain features; it may now have them
>> (except no RECORD statement; derived types are handled with a TYPE
>> statement, something that Fred Emmerich still hasn't learned).

> Dave, you don't get it: it's not the features, it's the talent. I've 
> found out that I'm as good at programming as Bill Clinton is at 
> celibacy.

So your remark wasn't specific to FORTRAN, despite the reference to it
especially.

>>>>> The rough I don't mind, it's the stupid that gets on my nerves.

>>>> And you're seeing plenty of it from the so-called "detractors".

>>> I'm not taking sides (Hah! as if that's going to be believed!), but 
>>> here's a shortlist:
>>>
>>> 1. Your opinions are only valid if they coincide with everyone else's.

>> Yes, they do seem to take that position rather frequently.

>>> 2. Fights from another geological era need to be continuously raked 
>>> up.

>> Which "another geological era" are you referring to?

> Let's just say "a long time ago" then.

In a galaxy far away?

>>> 3. Your opinions are only valid if they coincide with everyone else's.

>> Yes, they do seem to take that position rather frequently.

>>> 4. If you put out an analogy, _your own_ interpretation of it will not
>>> be accepted.

>> Sometimes the apologies are obviously not very sincere, considering
>> how they turn around and do the same thing over again.

>>> 5. Your opinions are only valid if they coincide with everyone else's.

>> Yes, they do seem to take that position rather frequently.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu                             28-Aug-99 22:31:10
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 05:35:21
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu

Marty writes:

>>>> Marty reached a logical conclusion.
 
>> That is *NOT* what I wrote, Marty.

> Nor what I wrote.

I wasn't quoting what you wrote, Marty.  I was quoting your edited
quotation of mine.

> These are your words Dave.

They do not represent my meaning, Marty.

> Do you wish to deny that?

I'll deny that they mean what I wrote, Marty.

You're like the National Lampoon, which edited out the "not"
from Nixon's "I am not a crook" and put it on a record album.

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From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu                             28-Aug-99 22:39:28
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 10:42:24
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu

Brad Wardell writes [to Karel Jansens]:

>>> Are you a college student?

> note no response.

That's because it's irrelevant, Brad.

> But you obviously care since you keep harping on how people can't make a
> determination on whether he's a kook or not.

You claimed that you don't care, Brad, but you keep harping on the
subject.  How ironic.

> I don't care if you like Tholen or not, it makes no difference to me.

Then why have you been responding to him so much, Brad?

> People keep telling you that in fact and you keep acting as if people are
> demanding you take a side.  NOBODY CARES WHETHER YOU TAKE A SIDE OR NOT.

Then why have you been responding to him so much, Brad?  And on what
basis do you claim to speak for everybody?

> I've never argued that the majority is always right.

Yet you're assuming that an alleged majority is right in this case, Brad.

> People on multiple newsgroups think Tholen's a jerk and a kook
> and worse.

Who are these alleged people, Brad?  Do you intend to *ever* substantiate
your claim?  You claim there are hundreds, so it shouldn't be hard for
you to find some of their names.

> In fact, ratio-wise, of the people who post to Tholen the number of
> detractors to supporters is very much in favor of the detractors.

Prove it, Brad, if you think you can.

> I think a reasonable human being can conclude that the problem lies with
> Tholen -- not the detractors.

What you think is irrelevant, Brad.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu                             28-Aug-99 22:55:21
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 10:42:24
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu

Brad Wardell writes:

> Marty wrote:

>> Dave Tholen suddenly started making sense today after the clock struck 2AM
>> EST:

> Actually, Dave isn't making sense.

You're erroneously presupposing that what Marty posted represents what I
wrote, Brad.

> From what little I gather it's obvious he's responding directly to me
> as if I'm reading his posts.

Illogical, as a response directly to you has no effect on whether they make
sense or not, Brad.

> Yet he knows I killfiled him some time ago.

I also know that you're reading quotations.  I also know that others have
read my postings even after claiming to have killfiled me.

> So responding directly to me is the height of illogic and kookiness.

Obviously not, for the reasons just given.  Do you consider it logical to
stick your fingers in your ears, clamp your eyes shut, but continue to
blather about someone?

> It's one thing to one to address points that one doesn't agree with and
> it's another to knowingly talk to people who don't see your posts.

But I know you are seeing some of my posts, Brad.  You've commented on
them.

> I've already concluded that Tholen's opinions are no worth reading,

I'm posting facts, Brad.

> that any post I make stands on its own and whatever silly retort or
> whatever by Tholen is going to be insufficient to convince people that
> he's right about whatever point.

On what basis do you make that claim, Brad?

> Everytime he posts that his interpretation of something is the ONLY
> valid interpretation for a vague analogy he only makes my case for me

When have I done that, Brad?  And how would you know whether my
interpretation was claimed to be the only valid one, if you haven't
been reading my posts?  There's a logical inconsistency in your own
argument.  You claim that you're not seeing my posts, but you're making
statements that indicate you have.

> -- he's an arrogant jerk known generally for being a kook.

Prove that your use of "generally" is valid, Brad.

> Similarly, posts in other news groups
> http://www.deja.com/qs.xp?OP=dnquery.xp&ST=QS&QRY=%22Dave+Tholen%22+NOT+comp
> ..os.os2.advocacy&DBS=2
>
> continue to show that a large chunk of them are Tholen detractors or
> people talking negatively about Tholen who are not here.

It's truly amazing that you would trot out that lie once again, Brad.
I reproduced a number of headings from that list before, demonstrating
that they have nothing to do with me.

> Some of the quoted text I've seen

Ah, so you admit to seeing some of my text.  So why did you claim it's
illogical to talk to someone who doesn't see a post when in fact you're
seeing some of them?

> apparently show Dave acting as if this is false.

It is false, Brad.

> Again, more "truth by proclamation" by Dave.

Incorrect, Brad.  I reproduced several of the headers, demonstrating
that they had nothing to do with me.  It's rather ironic, coming from
someone proclaiming that they're mostly anti-Tholen postings.

> Anyone can click on that link above and see that while not every
> post that mentions the word "Dave Tholen" is a flame against him,
> a good chunk of them is (16 out of 21 are negative towards Tholen
> in some respect)

Yet another Wardell lie.  I listed more than 5 that have nothing
whatsoever to do with me.

> and this is just a little over a week's worth of stats.

Incorrect stats.

> So getting back to Marty's modified context, even with your modified
> context, Dave still doesn't make sense because he's talking directly to
> someone who doesn't see his posts

Obviously you are seeing some of them, Brad.  And how does their
sensibility depend on whether you see them or not?  That's yet another
example of your illogic.

> unless someone actually quotes the entire thing

They don't have to necessarily quote the entire thing, Brad, though
Marty's approach is deceitful.

> since I have him killfiled.

Do you consider it logical to stick your fingers in your ears, clamp
your eyes shut, but continue to blather about someone, Brad?

> I find it more than a little bit weird that he would knowingly
> continue to respond *directly* to me

Nothing weird about it, Brad.  You're seeing some of the material.
I find it more than a little bit weird that you continue to blather
about me.

> as opposed to addressing points in general sense using his meager
> intellect.

Typical invective.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: rerbert@wxs.nl                                    29-Aug-99 01:33:06
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 10:42:25
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [rhetorical]

From: rerbert@wxs.nl (Gerben Bergman)

Deep within his glass house, jansens_at_ibm_dot_net threw the following
stones:

| > Don't get too smart with me now. As far as I'm concerned Belgium has no
| > reason to even *exist*; all parties involved would be better off if the
| > Dutch-speaking regions were to join Holland, and the French-speaking
regions
| > were to join France. (We're putting up with those pesky Frisians already,
so
| > adding a few Belgians wouldn't be that much of a burden.)
| 
| First of all, I'm Flemish, not Belgian.

There you have it; what's the purpose of a country if it consists of two
markedly distinct nationalities -- Flemish and Walloon -- which for the most
part won't even talk to each other? My plan of dividing Belgium between
Holland and France makes a lot more sense. (If only because I'd much prefer
Luc Nilis over Patrick Kluivert in our national football team.)

| And we don't need no stinkin' Dutch buzy-bodies to come tell us when to
| breathe.

Well, you could certainly use some of our common sense when it comes to the
maintenance of roads. When I rode my bike from Maastricht to Brussels back
in 1992, I was simply dumbfounded to see all these huge gaping holes in both
the N79's and N3's surface. And what's up with the attitude of the average
Belgian car driver? Flying past me at a speed of over 140km/h, with only
20cm of free space to separate us...

| (Actually, I quite like Holland. Too many regulations and speed-cameras for
| my taste, bot other than that: it's nicely flat.)

Yeah, ideal for bike riding. :)

Hey, to prevent this discussion from going off-topic any further: did you
know there's a town here which is called "Tholen"? And that Tholen is a
Dutch surname? That's about the only aspect of my country I'm *not* proud
of...

| > [Oh no, not *another* "Tholen emulator" thread! Perhaps we should bail
while
| > we still enjoy the faintest flicker of credibility with the rest of the
| > c.o.o.a-reading population...]
| 
| I'm not good at it anyway.

So I noticed; I kicked your ass so hard you wouldn't believe. :)

| I hope you weren't serious about the beer, though?

Actually, I was. Alcohol is probably the most dangerous drug there is, if
only because it's widely accepted as being okay (even socially desirable) to
use. I can't even begin to list the misery that's caused on a world-wide
basis.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: esther@bitranch.com                               28-Aug-99 23:36:02
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 10:42:25
Subj: Re: vmware mistake

From: esther@bitranch.com (Esther Schindler)

On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 20:50:37, tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith) wrote:

| I'm curious.  Have you ever considered, just for the novelty value, getting
| something *right* for once?  

Tim, the guy apologized already. He said he was wrong, and he went out
of the way to point it out. The proper response is gracious acceptance
of his error.

How 'bout an attitude like, "Sheesh, we all miss stuff, every so 
often, no big deal"? We're all people here, just trying to get the 
most out of our computers.

--Esther

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: ericb@pobox.com                                   28-Aug-99 20:29:25
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 10:42:25
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)

In article <7q9nvp$7bn$1@news.hawaii.edu>, tholenAntiSpam@ifa.hawaii.edu
wrote:

> Marty writes:
> 
> >>>> Marty reached a logical conclusion.
>  
> >> That is *NOT* what I wrote, Marty.
> 
> > Nor what I wrote.
> 
> I wasn't quoting what you wrote, Marty.  I was quoting your edited
> quotation of mine.
> 
> > These are your words Dave.
> 
> They do not represent my meaning, Marty.
> 
> > Do you wish to deny that?
> 
> I'll deny that they mean what I wrote, Marty.
> 
> You're like the National Lampoon, which edited out the "not"
> from Nixon's "I am not a crook" and put it on a record album.

Come on, Dave.  You do similarly silly things.  Like intentionally
splitting off text that answers a question, and then asking the question
as if the answer had not been given:



In article <7jaen2$5us@news.Hawaii.Edu>, Dave Tholen writes:


>Eric Bennett writes:
>
>>> When do you expect to complete your examination?
>
>> I do not expect to complete it.
>
> Why?
>
>> I have more important things to do, like posting in the emulator threads.
>
> What makes that more important to you?

-- 
Eric Bennett ( http://www.pobox.com/~ericb/ ) 
Cornell University / Chemistry & Chemical Biology

Sixty-seven percent of the doctors surveyed preferred X to Y.
(Jones couldn't be persauded.)  -John Allen Paulos

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: pcguido@ibm.net                                   29-Aug-99 00:44:05
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 10:42:25
Subj: Re: vmware mistake

From: pcguido@ibm.net

In <7q9amu$2cfj@enews3.newsguy.com>, "Kelly Robinson" <ispy@groovyshow.com>
writes:
|Oops, I responded that vmware supports OS/2 and Beos.
|
|Check out http://www.vmware.com/support/issues_linux_beta.html
|
|and you'll sadly notice that every OS _EXCEPT_ OS/2 has a higher priority
|for being supported in the near future.
|
|If IBM doesn't give a rat about its product, why should anyone else?1

If you actually _used_ vmware, instead of simply considering it for
your anti-OS/2 FUD; you might realize that it has almost as many
drawbacks as it does positives. Some of the engineers where I am
employed are trying to run NT under Linux; and, as long as you limit
your NT activities to the use of Outlook, the vmware solution leaves
a _lot_ to be desired.

Botom Line: you missed again...

Guido

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: pcguido@ibm.net                                   29-Aug-99 00:51:01
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 10:42:25
Subj: Re: vmware mistake

From: pcguido@ibm.net

In <LoEFmgJJ9ecw-pn2-yRM5g1HpqTxt@agave.bitranch.com>, esther@bitranch.com
(Esther Schindler) writes:
|On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 20:50:37, tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith) wrote:
|
|| I'm curious.  Have you ever considered, just for the novelty value, getting
|| something *right* for once?
|
|Tim, the guy apologized already. He said he was wrong, and he went out
|of the way to point it out. The proper response is gracious acceptance
|of his error.
|
|How 'bout an attitude like, "Sheesh, we all miss stuff, every so
|often, no big deal"? We're all people here, just trying to get the
|most out of our computers.
|
|--Esther

Esther,

Does your ISP charge you by the byte sent? I can't think of another
reason good enough for your _major_ butchery of every post you
respond to... As a writer, I would have imagined that you understood
the value of _context_ but I can't draw that conclusion from this
post - or many others recently.

Tim was responding to the newest (and lamest) MS-stooge here on cooa,
Kelly Robinson; and, Tim's reply was right on target.

I think maybe _you_ owe Tim an apology, rather than a dull reading
of your latest Ms Manners article. Sheesh indeed.

Regards,

Guido

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From: pcguido@ibm.net                                   29-Aug-99 00:53:25
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 10:42:25
Subj: Re: Java continues to splinter

From: pcguido@ibm.net

Robert,

Well thought out; and, well said - unlike anything you are likely to
read from Steven Den Beste, a trait which has caused me to refer to
him as 'Duh Werste' on more than one occaision!

Guido

In <37C788F9.33C1@math.utah.edu>, Robert Morelli <morelli@math.utah.edu>
writes:
|I only poke into this newsgroup every few months,	but every time I do
|it seems that this same person Den Beste is posting something goofball
|about Java,  about which he apparently knows very little.	The legal
|issue here is that a lower court found Sun's case so compelling that
|it issued a preliminary injunction,  a strong move.  The appeals court
|has agreed that Sun is likely to win,	but has requested that the lower court
|clarify the legal grounds for the injunction.	The lower court has 21 days
|to supply the clarification.  If in this time the lower court fails to
|provide a satisfactory clarification,	the injunction lapses.	If the
|injunction lapses,  MS has the right,	but not the obligation,  to revert
|to a slightly altered JVM. An MS spokesman Adam Sohn has stated that even if
|the injunction lapses,  "We will continue to support (Sun's version of Java)
in
|our products, at least for now."  In any case,  according to both courts,
|Sun is likely to prevail.
|
|In a follow up post,  Den Beste draws a dire conclusion about this from the
|assumption that you can only install a single JVM on a computer.  This
|makes about as much sense as saying you can only install a single text editor
|on a system.  Nobody with even a glancing acquaintance with Java would make
|such an assumption.
|
|For further context,  you should be aware that MS has publicly stated
recently,
|even in the midst of all this,  that it will continue to support Java because
|many of its customers need it.  This is in apparent contradiction to their
|attempt in February to promote a competing technology to Java called COOL.
|Most people don't even know what COOL is supposed to be.  One Windows
developer
|I know who read about it said,  "Even if they delivered it today,  and it was
|everything they claim it will be,	it wouldn't be interesting."  The press
|reported similar sentiments from industry analysts.  By the way,  that wasn't
|the first time MS threatened to create a Java alternative but was forced
|to retreat. They did this in 1996,  and even then they were soundly spanked
|in the press for making the attempt.  Frankly,  I was surprised they did
|abandon the attempt.  They might have had a chance if they'd committed to
|it seriously back then and been persistent.  Now,	the game's over.
|
|In the meantime,  Sun has acheived two of its real goals with the case. 
First,
|they took a gamble in exposing the inadequacies of MS's JVM.  It could have
|backfired with a loss of confidence in Java.  This didn't happen and Java
|continues its rapid growth.  Second,  Sun has used the case as a pretext for
|denying MS new code for recent versions of Java.  This means that MS is
falling
|far behind its competitors in its level of support.  My experience with Java
|developers is that this fact has had a dramatic detrimental effect on the
|use of Microsoft's Java tools.  I know a number of Java developers who work
|under Windows and who own J++ (as part of Developer Studio) but who don't
|even consider it a viable tool.
|
|Finally,  an interesting news item currently on the JavaWorld site states
that:
|"According to GartnerGroup, the portion of all programmers who target Windows
|as their primary development environment will fall from 65 percent in 1998 to
|40 percent in 2000."  GartnerGroup attributes this dramatic decline to the
|rising popularity of Java and Linux.
|
|
|
|
|Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
||
|| "Write once, Run anywhere" took two sharp shots to the jaw in the last few
|| days. Since OS/2 users are relying on portable Java as their last remaining
|| hope of mainstream commercial apps in volume, this is relevant to OS/2's
|| outlook.
||
|| http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?990823.pijavaos.htm
||
|| 'IBM officials confirmed Monday they have discontinued its joint
development
|| effort with Sun Microsystems to bring to market the JavaOS for Business, a
|| thin-client operating system that was expected to be bundled with systems
|| from both companies.'
||
|| 'The decision was made, in part, because of the significant performance
|| improvements IBM has made to the Java virtual machine (JVM), particularly
on
|| the Windows platform, company officials said.'
||
|| http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,40829,00.html
||
|| 'A federal appeals court today suspended an injunction requiring Microsoft
|| to make its products compatible with Sun Microsystems' Java language,
|| holding that a lower court erred in finding Microsoft infringed the
|| copyrights of archrival Sun.'
||
|| --------
|| Steven C. Den Beste	  sdenbes1@san.rr.com
|| Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste
||
|| "My hovercraft is full of eels."



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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               28-Aug-99 20:57:13
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 10:42:25
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu wrote:
> 
> Marty writes:
> 
> >>>> Marty reached a logical conclusion.
> 
> >> That is *NOT* what I wrote, Marty.
> 
> > Nor what I wrote.
> 
> I wasn't quoting what you wrote, Marty.  I was quoting your edited
> quotation of mine.

DT]  M] and furthermore wasn't even an analogy
 
> > These are your words Dave.
> 
> They do not represent my meaning, Marty.

DT]  M] and furthermore wasn't even an analogy
 
> > Do you wish to deny that?
> 
> I'll deny that they mean what I wrote, Marty.

DT]  M] and furthermore wasn't even an analogy
 
> You're like the National Lampoon, which edited out the "not"
> from Nixon's "I am not a crook" and put it on a record album.

DT]  M] and furthermore wasn't even an analogy

Anyone see any irony here?

- Marty

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: pcguido@ibm.net                                   29-Aug-99 01:54:14
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 10:42:25
Subj: Re: vmware mistake

From: pcguido@ibm.net

In <37c8825a@news1.us.ibm.net>, pcguido@ibm.net writes:
|In <7q9amu$2cfj@enews3.newsguy.com>, "Kelly Robinson" <ispy@groovyshow.com>
writes:
||Oops, I responded that vmware supports OS/2 and Beos.
||
||Check out http://www.vmware.com/support/issues_linux_beta.html
||
||and you'll sadly notice that every OS _EXCEPT_ OS/2 has a higher priority
||for being supported in the near future.
||
||If IBM doesn't give a rat about its product, why should anyone else?1
|
|If you actually _used_ vmware, instead of simply considering it for
|your anti-OS/2 FUD; you might realize that it has almost as many
|drawbacks as it does positives. Some of the engineers where I am
|employed are trying to run NT under Linux; and, as long as you limit
|your NT activities to the use of Outlook, the vmware solution leaves
|a _lot_ to be desired.

A little correction needed here: that should be _unless_ you limit
your NT activities to the use of Outlook...


|
|Botom Line: you missed again...
|
|Guido
|



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From: OS2Guy@WarpCity.com                               28-Aug-99 19:25:02
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 10:42:25
Subj: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com>

I have just received the following from Dan Porter of
Innoval Systems Solutions, Inc.:

From: Dan Porter  6:21 PM (PST), August 28, 1999
Subject: InnoVal and OS/2
To: os2guy@warpcity.com

Effective immediately, InnoVal Systems Solutions, Inc. is withdrawing
the following products from marketing and support.

Post Road Mailer for OS/2
J Street Mailer for Java
Web Willy Watch for OS/2

Anyone may download free copies of these products from our online store
at http://stores.yahoo.com/innoval. In addition, anyone may freely
distribute executable copies of the software through online software
repositories and websites. You are encouraged to do so because we will
only be able to keep them in our online store for a limited time. If you

distribute the Post Road Mailer you must also distribute a serial number

to allow a user to activate the product. You may use a serial number you

received from us in the past (for release 3.0), or you may use serial
number 31571728. You may also post serial numbers in newsgroups and
websites. Online orders, for these specific products, placed with us
during the last sixty days, have not been processed and customers
credit cards have not been charged. These orders will be cancelled and
customers are free to keep and use the downloaded code that they
received when they placed their order.

For me, personally, this is a sad day. Our company tried to hang in as
long as possible with OS/2. OS/2 is still my favorite platform and OS/2
customers are the best customers our company ever had. I have made many
good friends through my associations with all of you. You ll still see
me popping in at OS/2 users group meetings throughout the country when
my travels coincide with a meeting.

Our company continues to do very well. The consulting side of the
business has always been strong. The most exciting area of business,
however, is Iceptur. Iceptur is our new Internet filtering software for
the Windows 95/98/NT platform. Despite the fact that there are over two
hundred competitors in this market niche, we are experiencing phenomenal

success. This is partly because of the unique technology we developed
and partly because there is a strong demand for high quality Internet
filtering solutions (release 2.0 will hit the streets by September 5th).

We have entered into a number of strategic alliances with several
companies to market Iceptur and license the underlying technology for
use in other products.

I need, now, to focus all of InnoVal s resources on Iceptur and our
consulting business. I tried, during the past year, to juggle resources
but in doing so was not doing the right kind of job for our customers,
the OS/2 community at-large, InnoVal s employees, or InnoVal s owners.
You made the Post Road Mailer into the number one email client for OS/2.

You worked with us on J Street Mailer as we tried to negotiate a
platform independent course with Java. You have my thanks and the thanks

of everyone at InnoVal.

We are moving on to bigger things, but not better. OS/2 was better and
(oh, how I wish) it could have been big.

Thanks again,

Dan Porter, President
InnoVal Systems Solutions, Inc.

AND

From: Dan Porter  6:22 PM (PST), August 28, 1999
Subject: J Street Mailer Initiative
To: os2guy@warpcity.com

Let me state publically that I have no objection to any and all efforts
to enhance J Street Mailer. No do I have any objection to free
distribution. The team that worked on the original JSM project is
pleased that their original work is so well recognized.

Dan Porter, President
InnoVal Systems Solutions, Inc.

On a personal note:  I have been privileged to work and correspond
with Dan Porter and the fine folks at InnoVal for several years now.
No other OS/2 software developer has been more supportive or more
gracious with their time, efforts and devotion to OS/2.  I thank Dan
and his wonderful team of OS/2 programmers for all of their hard
work and I know that they entire OS/2 community wishes InnoVal
the best success on their future endeavors.

Tim Martin
The OS/2 Guy
Warp City
http://warpcity.com
"E-ride the wild surf to Warp City!"





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From: esther@bitranch.com                               29-Aug-99 03:52:11
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 15:49:07
Subj: Attitudes and apologies 

From: esther@bitranch.com (Esther Schindler)

As a writer, Guido, I know that one is judged by quality, not 
quantity. I pick out the message in the message, so to speak, and 
reply to that.

Then again, I usually have to get across a complex point in 300 or 500
words. I value brevity and information density. Also, I find endless 
quotebacks annoying and difficult to read; I prefer conversation, as 
it encourages an exchange of ideas, rather than repartee. (In my 
experience, message threads that are composed mainly of 
quotebacks-and-replies quickly lose the core of the discussion topic.)

Your mileage, naturally, may vary.

In any case, your major point seems to be that my response lacks the 
context of the conversation. Perhaps it does; I haven't been reading 
the interminable "advocacy's mosquito" thread because it shortly 
became clear that it had nothing to do with OS/2. And, hard as it may 
be for some here to recall, we _are_ here to talk about OS/2. (Cf: 
asses, alligators, clearing swamp)

However, you seem to feel that the context of "responding to the 
newest (and lamest) MS-stooge" is more important than keeping a civil 
tongue. You and I have disagreed on this topic several times, guido, 
in the several years since we first "met" on Fidonet, and I don't 
think we've ever come to a resolution, but I continue to believe that 
treating others with honor and kindness is a worthwhile activity. 

Then again, you're quick to label people as stooges and bad guys. I'm 
slow to do so. I don't mind if someone disagrees with me; I figure 
that I have something to learn from an opposing viewpoint, even if 
it's "only" increased empathy with another perspective. If the alleged
"stooge" is wrong, then it's easy enough to point out that he's wrong.
If the "stooge" is correct, then it's fair to acknowledge the 
problem... and, since problems can't be solved until they're 
acknowledged, to see what we (or IBM, or whomever) can do about fixing
it.

I find the exercise of shouting at people, virtually or otherwise, to 
be a waste of time.

--Esther

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: nobody@neuropa.net                                29-Aug-99 03:56:04
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 15:49:07
Subj: (1/2)  The case for OS/2 Warp, a Super-Charged OS 

From: Anonymous <nobody@neuropa.net>

Check: alt.binaries.warez.os2

IF YOU ARE AN EXISTING OS/2 WARP USER, THIS GUIDE WILL DESCRIBE HOW YOU
MAY IMPROVE SYSTEM FILE I/O BY 5X TO 10X FACTOR.

note:  This information is provided for educational, and entertainment
purposes only.  

IT is Recommended to print this guide now or save to a file for future
reference.... ;)

Introduction

This is a guide or informative doc,  how to install a quite IMPROVED 
OS/2 Warp v4 to your PC.  This guide is published for intermediate to
power PC users.  Why could you be interested in OS/2?.:
 => Because it is a robust 32-bit OS
 => Excellent Internet services (TCP/IP)
 => Excellent GUI, (named as the best on an important Linux web site)
 => Good support from IBM (Service pak #11 released in july)
 => Excellent 32-bit applications available and 1000's of utilities
 => JVM v1.1.8  The best JVM as reported by Volano and other benchmarks
 => YEAR 2K READY!, and more

Want' to try a FREE screensaver?:
http://www.os2ss.com/warpcast/wc1129.html

When installing Wipeout Screen saver, don't install the toolkit with 
OS/2 v4...

This is a guide to OS/2 information, software, resources and more,.. 
if you like challenges, keep reading!.  This time you can setup a more 
powerful PC system than ever.  The final result of this setup maybe
called OS/2 Brutal-Force...

PC newspersons are welcome to build this setup for testing purposes 
and they can have a better prisma to report how good or bad OS/2 is.
Reporting about OS/2 without making reserch, installing it, and
installing appropiate Fixpacks is to be an UN-PROFESSIONAL newsperson.

ATTENTION INTERNATIONAL USERS!, LOTUS SMART SUITE V1.1 FOR OS/2 WARP 4
IS NOW AVAILABLE WITH MULTI-LANGUAGE SUPPORT!!

Sample of OS/2 Applications & Utilities, some with url links:
1) Lotus Smart Suite v1.1 (123, Word Pro, Organizer, 
Approach,Freelance)
http://www.lotus.com/home.nsf/welcome/smartsuiteos2
2) Netscape Communicator v4.61 (July 14, 1999 edition)
http://www.software.ibm.com/warp/netscape
3) IBM Visual Age for JAVA v2 (v3 in beta right now)
http://www.software.ibm.com/ad/vajava
4) Star Office v5.1 (German Office Suite that resembles Office)
http://www.stardivision.com
5) IBM Visual Age for C++ v4
http://www.spoftware.ibm.com/ad/visualge_c++
6) Doctor Solomon Anti-Virus, VirusScan v4.02
http://www.nai.com
7) SETI@OS2
http://www.os2ss.com/seti
8) Emtec FTP 5.06 (with resume capabilities)
ftp://ftp.us.emtec.com/netsuite/eftp506.zip
9)Gamma Tech v4.0
http://www.gt-online.com
10) Object desktop v2.0
http://www.stardock.com
11) PKZIP v2.50
http://www.pkware.com/shareware/pkos2250.html
12) MainActor v3.0 (in development)
13) Pronews v1.51 (excellent usenet reader)
http://hobbes.nmsu.edu
14) IBM TCP/IP v4.1 (32-bit)
15) Innoval PostRoad Mailer (email, now FREE)
http://st6.yahoo.com/innoval/os2software.html
16) Innoval web WilliWatch (Net Nanny)
http://st6.yahoo.com/innoval/os2software.html
17) and more files
http://hobbes.nmsu.edu

One of our goals is to demonstrate that OS/2 is an excellent OS
alternative.

You need a FTP client with resume downloads capabilities.  If you are an
existing OS/2 user, try; Emtec FTP 5.06.  To follow OS/2 topics, use;
Pronews Usenet Reader [highly recommended]

1)  ftp://merlin.itep.ru (lss;os2warez) 

Be patient, many persons are loggin almost every hour and every minute.
Best hours are 2-5 AM.  Warning: Stardock Essentials v2.0 crash OS/2. Be
careful and avoid installing it.  Process Commander is a nice
application, it will save you many problems. But it is recommended to
uninstall it before installing a Fixpack.  Install Process Commander
-=AFTER=- installing FP #11.

Note: OS/2 should be installed to a HPFS partition.  System behavior 
is much better than FAT.

IMPORTANT!!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~
HPFS386 IS NOT COMPATIBLE WITH PARTITION MAGIC (ACL).  Also, you could
have BIG trouble executing HD utils NOT compatible with HPFS386!. This
makes
sense for an standalone OS/2 system.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~

Always check hardware for compatibility with OS/2,  Suggested 
installation procedure:
   1- Browse through KEY OS/2 web sites and learn about OS/2 
   2- Install OS/2 v4
   3- Install Must-Have utilities (more at the end of the doc)
   4- Get and install Netscape Communicator v4.61
      http://www.software.ibm.com/os/warp/netscape/
   5- Get and install OS/2 Feature Install Version 1.2.4 
      http://service.boulder.ibm.com/asd-bin/doc/en_us/catalog.htm  
   6- Get and install latest JAVA (1.1.7 or latest)
      http://service.boulder.ibm.com/asd-bin/doc/en_us/catalog.htm
   7- Enable software updates through the WWW                   
http://ps.boulder.ibm.com/pbin-usa-ps/getobj.pl?/pdocs-usa/softupd.htm
   8- Update OS/2 v4 (click the OS/2 v4 column, RSU, and Fixpack #11)
   9- Update Spooler
  10- Follow the instructions (be sure to NOT have other applications
running.)
  11- Go and hunt for TCP/IP v4.1 and install it.  This baby will allow
much better 'Interneting'
  12- Go and hunt for other OS/2 applications, particularly in FTP sites
in Russia
  13- Install Lotus Smart Suite v1.1, Star Office, File Manager and 
others. 
  14- Remember TEST DRIVE THEM and buy after 60 dayS TEST DRIVE

     
-------------------------------------------------------------------
and NOW Our Featured Presentation...

SUPER-CHARGE YOUR OS/2 SETUP.  HOW TO USE A BIGGER CACHE, 32-BIT FILE
SYSTEM AND 32-BIT DEVICE DRIVER.  MAKE YOUR OS/2 SYSTEM FASTER THAN
EVER.

HPFS386  --=> High Performance File System 

check fir it in alt.binaries.warez.os2, comp.os.os2.apps
or check around....

This hpfs386 is dated 06/11/99 and is the latest release.  if you're
just using hpfs.ifs,  you can improve your system performance with the
hpfs386 driver.

The hpfs386 is 32bit and can have any cache size you want, plus its
about 4x faster at writing and a bit faster at reading.  It will improve
the speed of your system. Instructions for installing are inside the
hpfs386 zip file. It is easy to do. The instructions are inside the ini
file itself in case you get lost. 

Another note: you'll need to update your config.sys. That information 
is also found in the hpfs386.zip file in the readme instructions.  The
entries are easy to add.  They can be  included at the end of your path
statements and you can literally mark/copy/paste the entry from the 
instruction file directly into your config.sys  paths.   

Make sure you make those entries in your config.sys before you reboot
your system so your system knows  what driver to use and where to find
it. You'll know it worked when 
you reboot and a single  statement across your screen says the hpfs386
driver was found.

HPFS INSTALLATION:
HPFS386 Installation on Warp3, Warp4 ..etc.

Make a directory under c:\ called ibm386fs and copy everything
in this package there..

Edit your config.sys, REM out the hpfs.ifs line, and add these:
IFS=C:\IBM386FS\HPFS386.IFS /A:*
CALL=C:\OS2\CMD.EXE /Q /C C:\IBM386FS\CACHE386.EXE >NUL

Add C:\IBM386FS; to your PATH, LIBPATH and DPATH

Edit HPFS386.INI and change the cachesize to whatever you want
(don't edit anything else!)

Reboot and enjoy!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
2) DANIS506 --=>
http://hobbes.nmsu.edu/pub/os2/system/drivers/storage/danis506.zip


                       Daniela's S506 ADD - Gamma 5
                        ------------------------------
Check for latest release in http://hobbes.nmsu.edu/incoming

NAME
     DaniS506.ADD  -  replacement for IBM1S506.ADD

ATTENTION, Test Results!

RESULTS REPORTED FROM INTEGRATING DANIS506.ADD -=>AND<=- HPFS386 
TO OS/2 AN WARP v4 SYSTEM:  Enjoy...... :)

Before Danis506+HPFS386  (Sysbench 0.9.4e)
>  File I/O - Drive D:
>    4Kb seq.   Uncached w :     3878.003    Kilobytes/second
>    4Kb seq.   Uncached r :     5811.515    Kilobytes/second
	.
	.
>    64K random Cached   w :     4906.782    Kilobytes/second
>    64K random Cached   r :     2672.974    Kilobytes/second
>    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>    Total                 :     3096.124    File I/O-marks
>                               ==========

AFTER DANIS506+HPFS386
>  File I/O - Drive D:
>    4Kb seq.   Uncached w :     2268.435    Kilobytes/second
>    4Kb seq.   Uncached r :    30223.332    Kilobytes/second
	.
	.
>    64K random Cached   w :    57649.151    Kilobytes/second
>    64K random Cached   r :    52182.161    Kilobytes/second
>    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>    Total                 :    31493.542    File I/O-marks
>                              ============

System File I/O-marks increased by a factor of 10X!, sure your results
will vary but it seems a definitive and substantial improvement that
positions OS/2 Warp v4 as a quite attractive computing and SOHO
platform.

What is a Fixpack?

For a complete description,check:
http://www.os2ezine.com/v1n4/fixpak.html

To UPDATE your system to the most recent fixpack level check:
http://ps.boulder.ibm.com/pbin-usa-ps/getobj.pl?/pdocs-usa/softupd.htm

TIP: You will need a file named RSUINST.EXE  download it from

http://ps.boulder.ibm.com/pbin-usa-ps/getobj.pl?/pdocs-usa/softupd.htm
l#warp34

Now your OS/2 v4 should run like a champ!, browse through OS/2
newsgroups for any help or question you may have :/

If for any reason OS/2 'hangs' while booting, you have a 'MIRACLE' 
KEYpress ALT-F1 while OS/2 boots (There will be a small OS/2 rectangle
in the upper left corner of your monitor...  Follow the alternatives o
FIX the CONFIG.SYS file  if you messed with it...It will be wise to 
make backup copies of OS2.INI and OS2SYS.INI files. Use FM/2 file
manager to do it.

Try to have BACKUP copies of CONFIG.SYS.  just in case......If you need
help:
comp.os.os2.apps,comp.os.os2.beta,comp.os.os2.bugs,comp.os.os2.setup.misc
comp.os.os2.setup.video,comp.os.os2.setup.storage

Hardware considerations:

IBM HAS DEVELOPED OS/2 DEVICE DRIVER PAK ONLINE, THIS WEB SITE HAVE
THOUNSANDS OF DRIVERS.  
http://service.software.ibm.com/os2ddpak/index.htm

-=-> Last choice, replace the UNSUPPORTED COMPONENT for a supported
ONE.  This will depend on your motivation to use OS/2 Warp v4 <-=-=-

OS/2 WARP - SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS
Minimum Hardware Configuration. The hardware requirements for OS/2 
Warp 4 vary depending on the 
options installed and the applications you wish to run on the   
machine. Here are the minimum requirements for 
a typical computer environment: 486 or better CPU, 32MB RAM (or more),
ATAPI CD ROM, 100-300 MB HD.
OS/2 supported sound card for audio and multimedia applications
       
TIP:
If after installing an application you notice problems, edit OS2.INI 
file and remove references to the 
application.

KEY LINKS: --=> These are the best places for  OS/2 information: <=--

Information for OS/2 new users or potential ones:
A must for anyone that want to know the TRUTH about OS/2!
http://www.os2ss.com/Information/NewUsers/
http://www.honeycomb.net/os/oses/os2.htm

EZINES:
http://www.os2ezine.com
http://www.os2ss.com
http://www.edm2.com/
http://os2about.com

OS/2 FILES
http://hobbes.nmsu.edu
http://www.os2bbs.com
http://service.boulder.ibm.com/asd-bin/doc/en_us/catalog.htm
http://www.leo.org/archiv/software/os2/
ftp://merlin.itep.ru   [lss;os2warez]

OS/2 NEWS
http://www.os2ss.com/news
http://www.warpcast.com

VENDORS:
http://www.indelible-blue.com/scott/ibnews.nsf
http://www.bmtmicro.com

JAVA IDES THAT SUPPORT OS/2
Visual Age For JAVA - less than $90
http://www.software.ibm.com/ad/

Netbeans - FREE
http://www.netbeans.com

Simplicity for JAVA
http://www.datarepresentations.com/

Netrexx - FREE
http://www2.hursley.ibm.com/netrexx/

IBM ALPHAWORKS Web Site -  FREE
http://www.alphaWorks.ibm.com/formula

More information about OS/2 and JAVA
http://www.doofus.org/Java/

Check The OS/2 alternative Web Site: 
http://www.tstonramp.com/~freiheit/os2apps.shtml

WIN32 Support in OS/2:
http://www.netlabs.org/odin/

Linux/Unix and OS/2:
http://www.netlabs.org/everblue/

Check OS/2 organizations like:
http://www.netlabs.org
http://en.os2.org

Virtual Pascal
http://www.fprint.co.uk/products/virtual_pascal/

OS/2 and Sound Cards
http://www.tabi.org/timur/crystalos2.html

PKZIP v2.50
http://www.pkware.com

Remember:  Buy those applications  *IF*  you decide to continue use 
them's after 6 months TEST DRIVE

Other links:
Watcom C++ Compiler v11.0a
Nader Letter to IBM:
http://www.zdnet.com/sr/breaking/980608/980608f.html
WWW WYSIWYG editor
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/clerin/
Large OS/2 Customer list
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~meile/los2cl.html
XIMATI OS/2 Web Server - FREE
http://www.imatix.com/html/xitami/index.htm
V C++ GUI Development framework
http://www.objectcentral.com/
Warp 4  Engage
http://www2.hu-berlin.de/~h0444vnd/os2.htm
White Paper:  Advantages of OS/2 v4 over  WIN NT v4
http://www.minzdat.ch/forum/tanos/pages/merlinnt2.htm
Cable modems and OS/2 Warp v4
http://members.home.net/bhubley/cableintro.html
Blackdeath software
http://sprk.com/blackdeath/
Pillarsoft
http://www.pillarsoft.net/
DIGITAL Cameras and OS/2
http://users.uniserve.ca/~software/dcitu/index.html
Independent developer
http://en.os2.org/projects/indos2/
Config documentation
http://www.online.de/home/os2/csdp/about.htm
The OS/2 HISTORY
http://www.hartnell.cc.ca.us/student/hacnc/altos/OS2History.html
Visual PROLOG
http://www.visual-prolog.com/vip/vipinfo/freeware_version.htm
SETI
http://www.os2ss.com/seti

Like Arcade GAMES?, try M.A.M.E.

http://hobbes.nmsu.edu/cgi-bin/h-search?key=mame&pushbutton=Search
ROMS:
http://www.ArcadeAtHome.com/

Last but not least,we are seeking developers to join OS/2.  Tools 
available includes JAVA, C++ (GNU, Visual 
Age for C++ v4),  Pascal, Rexx, Netrexx. There are others.

THE OS/2 WARP DEVELOPERS TOOLKIT IS AVAILABLE AT ONE OF THE TWO URL'S
PROVIDED HERE. JOIN OS/2 NOW!

Join one of many projects at http://www.netlabs.org

Maybe, it will be WISE to buy OS/2 V4 rather than try to download it 
since it is a 250MB file.  LOTUS SS v1.1 
could be downloaded with EMTEC FTP and resuming file download will be 
required since many users are
connecting to those URL's. YES This message is working!...

Note:
OS/2 v4 is available from Indelible Blue..

NOTE:

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
 * Origin: Usenet: mail2news@nym.alias.net (1:109/42)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: nobody@neuropa.net                                29-Aug-99 03:56:04
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 15:49:07
Subj: (2/2)  The case for OS/2 Warp, a Super-Charged OS 

If you don't want to bother downloading The OS/2 Warp 250MB file or 
LOTUS SMART SUITE V1.1 (1999) 
Edition , Goto INDELIBLE BLUE:

   * LOTUS SMART SUITE ACADEMIC VERSION IS ONLY $83  (AN648NA)
http://www.indelible-blue.com/ibapps/products.nsf/by+partnumber/AN645N
A

   * OS/2 V4 ACADEMIC VERSION IS ONLY $85 (84H7459)
http://www.indelible-blue.com/ibapps/products.nsf/by+partnumber/84H745
9)

What it takes?  The  GUTS to install OS/2 Are you so GOOD?

TIP:
USE ALT-F1 WHEN BOOTING FAILS.  IT IS NOT COMMON BUT THIS IS A GREAT
TRICK!
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
IMPORTANT NOTE:
If you find this info interesting or useful, save to a file NOW!.  You
don't know when you may need it!.  Also, 
you could make copies (or forward through email) for your friends.  
This guide will not be posted
anymore to usenet.  Maybe someone could post it from time to time...

WHAT YOU CAN DO?:
   * Forward this message to your friends. You could forward through 
an
     anonymous remailer.  More about remailers later..
   * Forward (through anonymous remailers also) to PC Newspersons
        o Techwire
        o Infoworld
        o PC World
        o ZDNet
        o Or other
   * Post (anonymously, if you want) to OS-related Newsgroups
   * Tell PC media you use, like and use OS/2
   * Ask the press for better coverage of OS/2 (ZDNet, Infoworld,
     Techweb)
   * If you are an OS expert and have capabilities and bandwidth
     resources to put online an FTP server,(someone in Europe? 
     or latin america?) with key apps, utils, etc..

Must Have utilities (THE BASICS):

A)    INFOZIP UNZIP (EQUIVALENT TO PKUNZIP.EXE)
ftp://hobbes.nmsu.edu/pub/os2/archiver/unz540x2.exe
Installation:
1)make dir \UNZIP in c: d: or whatever OS/2 partition
2)copy and extract unz540x2.exe into \unzip
3)edit config.sys and add \unzip to the path
4)remember to end \unzip reference in the path with ;

B)    FILE_MANAGER
ftp://ftp.bmtmicro.com/bmtmicro/fm2_301.zip
Installation:
1)make dir \FM2 (or whatever) in c: d: or whatever OS/2 partition
2)copy and extract fm2_301.zip \FM2 (or whatever)
3)run install.cmd

C)    CONFIG.SYS  ANALYZER OPTIMIZER
ftp://hobbes.nmsu.edu/pub/os2/util/config/cfgmt100.zip
Installation
1) Make dir \cfgmt (or whatever)
2) Copy cfgmt100.zip and extract with unzip.exe
3) run install.cmd

D)    EMX (optional, required for some utilities and GNU)
ftp://hobbes.nmsu.edu/pub/os2/dev/emx/v0.9d/emxrt.zip

Installation
1) copy emxrt.zip to c:\ (root)
2) unzip with unzip.exe (it should create a sub-dir \emx, test first 
in
other dir if you want)
3) Add \emx\bin to config.sys path, add emx\dll to config.sys library
path

E)    Sysbench 0.9.e
ftp://hobbes.nmsu.edu/pub/os2/util/benchmark/sysb094e.zip

F)    Memsize - System Resources Monitor
http://www.msen.com/~rpapo

G)    Process Commander (after basic Install, upgrade with pcfix1.zip)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
PC Newsreporters, what we can do with them?.  Ok, we can suggest to 
forward (anonymously) this message to the news person of your choice.
This will tell them how to 'tweak' OS/2 for greater performance.  Linux
user's like to tweak their systems (and press people respect that) we 
have the right to make the same to our 
OS.

You can choose anyone and send this message to make them aware that 
OS/2 can be Super-Charged.  Maybe, one of them could have the guts (or
courage) to make it and run some benchmarks against Win 98, Win 2000,
and Win NT 4.  It should be interesting to see results with  a
Super-Charged OS/2 setup (FP11, DANIS506, and HPFS386) against Win 98,
Win 2000, and Win NT 4.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Newspersons and email contact info...
You may also send a copy of this guide to your prefered newsperson to 
make he(she) aware of the OS/2 
"Tweak" and Tricks included here.  You may want to send via 
anonymous... see below...

 Name                   	email address                 
Publication/WebSite
 Infoworld              	electric@infoworld.com        	InfoWorld
 Mary Joe Foley         	mfoley@zd.com                 	Sm@rtReseller
 Tom Yager              	tyager@maxx.net               	InfoWorld
 Charles Cooper         	charles_cooper@zd.com         	ZDNET News
 Editor                 	pcmag@zd.com                  	PC Magazine 
 John Clyman            	john_clyman@zd.com            	PC Magazine 
 Michael Fitzgerald     	michael_fitzgerald@zd.com     	ZDNET
 Maria Seminerio        	maria_seminerio@zd.com        	ZDNET
 Sean Silverthorne      	sean_silverthorne@zd.com      	ZDNET
 ZDNet Benchmarks 	zdbopwebmaster@zd.com 	ZD Benchmarks
 Scott Berlinato        	scott_berinato@zd.com         	PC Week
 Claudia Graziano       	claudia_graziano@zd.com       	PC Week
 John Madden            	john_madden@zd.com            	PC Week
 James Miller           	james_miller@zd.com           	PC Magazine
 Alan Zeichick          	zeichick@camdenassociates.com TechWeb/CMP
 David Lidski           	dlidsky@zd.com               	PC Magazine
 Sharon Terdeman 	sharon_terdeman@zd.com        	PC Magazine
 Wayne Rash     	wrash@mindspring.com          	TechWeb/CMP
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How to send anonymous email and/or post anonimously to usenet:
http://www.skuz.net/potatoware/reli/UserMan.htm
http://www.replay.com/remailer/
http://mail2news.cjb.net/
ttp://www.mute.dircon.co.uk/remailers.html
http://www.metcorp.com/sean/remail.html
http://www.skuz.net/potatoware/reli/UserMan.htm
NEWSGROUP: alt.privacy.anon-server
thread--=> List of Reliable Remailers --=> Updated daily!

NOTE: SOME REMAILERS ARE UP/AND DOWN EASILY. Test First!, and test 
with
dummy messages to some dummy newsgroup.  

::
request-remailing-to: remailer@replay.com

::
request-remailing-to: remailer@xxxxx.com

::
Anon-post-to:newsgroup
or 
Anon-to: john_doe@columbia.net

##
subject:whatever
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Remailers reliability and info...
alt.privacy.anon-server

Attention if you receive this doc, please forward to a fellow worker 
who might be interested in this info...

INTERESTING TIP:
You can forward this message from usenet to your own email account 
(Pronews forward, right side) and 'Edit Message as New' with
Communicator 4.61 and repost to usenet if you want or forward to a
friend or to a newsperson.

Chiao!

Extra:
modify config.sys
SET MENUSFOLLOWPOINTER=YES

and you will have a more functional mouse pointer..ala Win 95!

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
 * Origin: Usenet: mail2news@nym.alias.net (1:109/42)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: baden@unixg.ubc.ca                                29-Aug-99 04:17:16
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 15:49:07
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: baden@unixg.ubc.ca   (Baden Kudrenecky)

In <37C899FF.D4371FE0@WarpCity.com>, Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com> writes:
>I have just received the following from Dan Porter of
>Innoval Systems Solutions, Inc.:

   How do we know this is true, i.e, why didn't i, as a licensed
JStreet user get any notice about this, and why didn't Dan post
it anywhere on his WWW site, which BTW, has nothing else on it
but "Iceptur"?

>From: Dan Porter  6:21 PM (PST), August 28, 1999
>Subject: InnoVal and OS/2
>To: os2guy@warpcity.com
>
>Effective immediately, InnoVal Systems Solutions, Inc. is withdrawing
>the following products from marketing and support.
>
>Post Road Mailer for OS/2
>J Street Mailer for Java
>Web Willy Watch for OS/2
>
>Anyone may download free copies of these products from our online store
>at http://stores.yahoo.com/innoval. In addition, anyone may freely
>distribute executable copies of the software through online software
>repositories and websites. You are encouraged to do so because we will
>only be able to keep them in our online store for a limited time. If you
>
>distribute the Post Road Mailer you must also distribute a serial number
>
>to allow a user to activate the product. You may use a serial number you
>
>received from us in the past (for release 3.0), or you may use serial
>number 31571728. You may also post serial numbers in newsgroups and
>websites. Online orders, for these specific products, placed with us
>during the last sixty days, have not been processed and customers
>credit cards have not been charged. These orders will be cancelled and
>customers are free to keep and use the downloaded code that they
>received when they placed their order.
>
>For me, personally, this is a sad day. Our company tried to hang in as
>long as possible with OS/2. OS/2 is still my favorite platform and OS/2
>customers are the best customers our company ever had. I have made many
>good friends through my associations with all of you. You ll still see
>me popping in at OS/2 users group meetings throughout the country when
>my travels coincide with a meeting.
>
>Our company continues to do very well. The consulting side of the
>business has always been strong. The most exciting area of business,
>however, is Iceptur. Iceptur is our new Internet filtering software for
>the Windows 95/98/NT platform. Despite the fact that there are over two
>hundred competitors in this market niche, we are experiencing phenomenal
>
>success. This is partly because of the unique technology we developed
>and partly because there is a strong demand for high quality Internet
>filtering solutions (release 2.0 will hit the streets by September 5th).
>
>We have entered into a number of strategic alliances with several
>companies to market Iceptur and license the underlying technology for
>use in other products.
>
>I need, now, to focus all of InnoVal s resources on Iceptur and our
>consulting business. I tried, during the past year, to juggle resources
>but in doing so was not doing the right kind of job for our customers,
>the OS/2 community at-large, InnoVal s employees, or InnoVal s owners.
>You made the Post Road Mailer into the number one email client for OS/2.
>
>You worked with us on J Street Mailer as we tried to negotiate a
>platform independent course with Java. You have my thanks and the thanks
>
>of everyone at InnoVal.
>
>We are moving on to bigger things, but not better. OS/2 was better and
>(oh, how I wish) it could have been big.
>
>Thanks again,
>
>Dan Porter, President
>InnoVal Systems Solutions, Inc.
>
>AND
>
>From: Dan Porter  6:22 PM (PST), August 28, 1999
>Subject: J Street Mailer Initiative
>To: os2guy@warpcity.com
>
>Let me state publically that I have no objection to any and all efforts
>to enhance J Street Mailer. No do I have any objection to free
>distribution. The team that worked on the original JSM project is
>pleased that their original work is so well recognized.
>
>Dan Porter, President
>InnoVal Systems Solutions, Inc.
>
>On a personal note:  I have been privileged to work and correspond
>with Dan Porter and the fine folks at InnoVal for several years now.
>No other OS/2 software developer has been more supportive or more
>gracious with their time, efforts and devotion to OS/2.  I thank Dan
>and his wonderful team of OS/2 programmers for all of their hard
>work and I know that they entire OS/2 community wishes InnoVal
>the best success on their future endeavors.
>
>Tim Martin
>The OS/2 Guy
>Warp City
>http://warpcity.com
>"E-ride the wild surf to Warp City!"
>
>
>
>
>


baden

baden@unixg.ubc.ca
http://baden.nu/
OS/2, Solaris & Linux

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: OS2Guy@WarpCity.com                               28-Aug-99 21:49:19
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 15:49:07
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com>

Baden Kudrenecky wrote:

> Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com> writes:
> >I have just received the following from Dan Porter of
> >Innoval Systems Solutions, Inc.:
>
>    How do we know this is true, i.e, why didn't i, as a licensed
> JStreet user get any notice about this, and why didn't Dan post
> it anywhere on his WWW site, which BTW, has nothing else on it
> but "Iceptur"?
>
> baden
>
> baden@unixg.ubc.ca
> http://baden.nu/
> OS/2, Solaris & Linux

I'm a licensed JStreet User.  I oversee the largest private OS/2-only
web site on the 'Net (Warp City).  Most of the news you find today
on public OS/2 web sites is more often than not reported by Warp
City first - just as it is in this case.  You are certainly welcome to
ignore my public messages.  The same information is now appearing
at the publicly accessible Warp Cast web site and has been repeated
in  these newsgroups by Judith Russell.  (WarpCast does not provide
the second message from Dan Porter regarding the  "J Street Mailer
Initiative".  Warp City has been running exclusive JSM information, files
and upgrades offered by Samatra Software (Paul vanKeep and now
Mike Bowler) to Warp City members, many of whom use JSM.  Dan
may have submitted it to us (Warp City) because he feels confident
we will report his feelings, public statements and support of the
the newly created JSM Initiative.  InnoVal has every right on earth
to be proud as punch of JSM.  It is the finest 100% Java emailer
program on the market today.  Emerald Mail, MailPuccini and the
other entries have yet to equal the quality and features of JSM.

Paul vanKeep and Mike Bowler have stepped forward to devote
their personal time and extraordinary Java programming skills
to ensure J Street Mailer stays 'out front' in the Java Emailer
category.  They have released a flurry of upgrades over the
last few weeks and are improving JSM with each release.  Another
release is expected any day now (PVK8).  A long list of new features
and bug fixes have been released.  Paul and Mike intend on improving
the quality of JSM beyond its current high quality state.  Their time,
efforts and exemplary work have all been offered for free because of
their admiration for the fine J Street Mailer.  JSM runs on Linux,
Windows95/98/NT, Mac and especially well on OS/2.   One program
that runs under all operating systems.  It is an amazing piece of
work created by InnoVal.

Tim Martin
The OS/2 Guy
Warp City
http://warpcity.com
"E-ride the wild surf to Warp City"

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
 * Origin: Usenet: Warp City (http://warpcity.com) (1:109/42)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               29-Aug-99 01:03:26
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 15:49:08
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [time's up] [context guard]

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu wrote:
> 
> Marty writes:
> 
> >> You just indicated [...] responses to me [...] will be unimportant.  I
agree.
> 
> Posting another unimportant response, eh Marty?

How ironic.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               29-Aug-99 01:50:05
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 15:49:08
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu wrote:
> 
> Brad Wardell writes [to Bennie Nelson]:
> 
> > Then you need to address why the contemporay judgement in this case
> > may not be right.
> 
> [...]
> 
> > Galileo was arguing a scientific fact that could be proven in time.
> > Christ was the foundation of a religion.
> 
> I've been arguing [...] as well, Brad.
> 
> > This new clarification makes it even worse than before because now we're
> > told we can't judge people today as bad people no matter how many people
> > hate a given person because maybe a 1000 years from now they'll be found 
> > not to be worthy of such derisiion.  But you need to provide a reason why 
> > you think Tholen's behavior will some day be celebrated instead of 
> > despised.
> 
> [...]

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               29-Aug-99 02:05:28
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 15:49:08
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu wrote:
> 
> Marty writes:
> 
> >> You're the one arguing with [...] a jerk, Brad.
> 
> So much for your alleged restoration of context, Marty.  Hypocrite.

Are these not your words Dave?

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: say@sfu.ca                                        29-Aug-99 06:02:26
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 15:49:08
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: say@sfu.ca (Daniel Say)

Baden Kudrenecky (baden@unixg.ubc.ca) wrote:
: In <37C899FF.D4371FE0@WarpCity.com>, Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com>
writes:
: >I have just received the following from Dan Porter of
: >Innoval Systems Solutions, Inc.:

:    How do we know this is true, i.e, why didn't i, as a licensed
: JStreet user get any notice about this, and why didn't Dan post
: it anywhere on his WWW site, which BTW, has nothing else on it
: but "Iceptur"?

: baden@unixg.ubc.ca : http://baden.nu/ : OS/2, Solaris & Linux

--------
	He also closed his "new at hobbes web site" recently
	according to the web-hoster
--------
#Linkname: [hobbes.nmsu.edu] Directory of /pub/new
#Link below withdrawn August 1999
#http://www.aescon.com/bestofos2/hobbes.htm

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
 * Origin: Usenet: Simon Fraser University (1:109/42)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               29-Aug-99 02:15:18
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 15:49:08
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu wrote:
> 
> Karel Jansens writes [to Brad Wardell]:
> 
> > Just one more thing: you _do_ realise that to all the participants and
> > lurkers in this group you are representing Stardock Systems, don't
> > you? I mean, I can make a complete arse of myself and Dave Tholen can
> > be as obnoxious as he wants to be, neither of us are going to lose
> > even a cent in that. But if you should start painting yourself as a
> > prejudiced bigot, don't you think that would reflect in your business?
> 
> I've already been told privately that Stardock products would be
> avoided because of Brad's behavior here.  One person even told me
> that he emailed that statement directly to Brad.  Brad just treated
> him the same way he treats me.

His loss, not Brad's.
 
> > I won't even answer to the rest of that paragraph. Anybody who thinks
> > that mob justice is an example of "societal norms" is way beyond me
> > anyway.
> 
> Bravo!  But it's a wonderful example of Brad's brand of reasoning.

Yeah.  Realism.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               29-Aug-99 02:36:27
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 15:49:08
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu wrote:
> 
> Marty writes:
> 
> >> Yes [...] the interpretation is logical, Brad.
> 
> So much for your alleged restoration of context, Marty.

Are those not your words, Dave?

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               29-Aug-99 02:50:25
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 15:49:08
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Tim Martin wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> On a personal note:  I have been privileged to work and correspond
> with Dan Porter and the fine folks at InnoVal for several years now.

Not suggesting that you should be, but why aren't you upset with them and
calling them Microsoft Salesmen for abandoning OS/2 for windoze
development?  Is this not what Stardock has done (to a much lessor degree)
yet you attack them relentlessly?  I just want to understand what's
different about this situation.  Is it all personal against BW?

- Marty

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
 * Origin: Usenet: Time Warner Road Runner - Binghamton NY (1:109/42)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: rjf@yyycomasia.com                                29-Aug-99 07:11:13
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 15:49:08
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: rjf@yyycomasia.com (rj friedman)

On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 13:19:25, andy@callan57.gtri.gatech.edu 
() wrote:

Brad Wardell writes:

ī>I have argued that Bennie's analogy (before he clarified) could be
ī>interepreted to mean multiple things...

Anyone can interpret it to mean anything they want it to 
mean - as the interpretation put on it by yourself, Martin, 
Sutherland and Glatt clearly demonstrates.

The key point, 
however, is that it did not logically follow from the 
premises, and is, therefore a logically invalid 
interpretation. Which is the point that Bennie, myself, Dave
have been making.


ī>I never met Adolph Hitler but I think I can conclude that he wasn't exactly
ī>a great guy since he is so universally despised.  I am not going to take the
ī>tact "Well, I can't judge him because there have been isolated incidents in
ī>history of generally despised people turning out to be not bad guys at all."

That there is no logical connection between this little 
anecdote of yours and Bennies primary premise.


________________________________________________________

[RJ]                 OS/2 - Live it, or live with it. 
rj friedman          Team ABW              
Taipei, Taiwan       rjf@yyycomasia.com 

To send email - remove the `yyy'
________________________________________________________

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
 * Origin: Usenet: SEEDNet News Service (1:109/42)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: rjf@yyycomasia.com                                29-Aug-99 07:11:14
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 15:49:08
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: rjf@yyycomasia.com (rj friedman)

On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 15:59:13, "Brad Wardell" 
<bwardell@mw.mediaone.net> wrote:

īMarty was not the only one who took the analogy that way.  In fact, several
īpeople took the analogy differently than Bennie intended.

Marty claimed that he was the author of it. Then there were 
Glatt and Sutherland - both notorious anti-OS/2 FUDsters who
take enjoyment in hanging around in cooa making pests of 
themselves - and with long track records of harrassing Dave.

They were only too happy to seize upon Marty's logically 
invalid conclusion in order to continue the `let's harass 
Dave' game that they play.

And then, of course, there was you - only too happy to 
clutch at any straw in your attempts to discredit Dave's 
ideas.

The posts of the disinterested third parties - such as Eric 
B. and Karel J. indicated surprise that Marty's conclusion 
was considered valid. This, for example, by Karel:

------------- begin -------------

I would advise you to stop replying to this person.
Any normal people in this group (that is: those that have 
not flamed you in this analogy-thread) know two things:
 
1) your original analogy was not about comparing a person to
Jesus Christ, but about the assumption that truth comes with

numbers;
 
2) you did NOT mention Dave Tholen in the original analogy, 
it WAS added later and consequently attributed to you.
 
Mr Sutherland is obviously not interested in either normal 
discussion or the truth, he just wants to shout so loud that
he thinks he is right.

-------- end --------------



________________________________________________________

[RJ]                 OS/2 - Live it, or live with it. 
rj friedman          Team ABW              
Taipei, Taiwan       rjf@yyycomasia.com 

To send email - remove the `yyy'
________________________________________________________

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From: rjf@yyycomasia.com                                29-Aug-99 07:11:16
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 15:49:08
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: rjf@yyycomasia.com (rj friedman)

X-Newsreader: ProNews/2 Version 1.50 Beta 1




On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 15:54:03, "Brad Wardell" 
<bwardell@mw.mediaone.net> wrote:

īActually, Dave isn't making sense.  From what little I gather it's obvious
īhe's responding directly to me as if I'm reading his posts.
Æ
īYet he knows I killfiled him some time ago.  So responding directly to me is
īthe height of illogic and kookiness.

He knows that from behind the cloak 
of the killfile you continue in your attempts to smear him 
in order to discredit his ideas.

Obviously, he is not responding to - he is responding to 
your smears. Talk about illogical and kooky - you didn't 
even have the capacity to understand such a simple point.

īI've already concluded that Tholen's opinions are no worth 
īreading, that any post I make stands on its own and whatever 
īsilly retort or whatever by Tholen is going to be insufficient to 
īconvince people that he's right about whatever point.

I've concluded that you don't have the guts to face him so 
you hide behind the cloak of the killfile and engage in a 
smear campaign.


________________________________________________________

[RJ]                 OS/2 - Live it, or live with it. 
rj friedman          Team ABW              
Taipei, Taiwan       rjf@yyycomasia.com 

To send email - remove the `yyy'
________________________________________________________

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From: rjf@yyycomasia.com                                29-Aug-99 07:11:15
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 15:49:08
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: rjf@yyycomasia.com (rj friedman)

On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 15:41:17, "Brad Wardell" 
<bwardell@mw.mediaone.net> wrote:

īI didn't vote in either [kook of the month] one but I did see the results to
one of them and it
īwas literally hundreds of people and they listed the people who voted.

That poll, as you very well know, was a juvenile prank 
played by one of Dave's long term harassers - in which he 
rigged the whole thing - including the bogus list of people.

The guy even outright admitted it was a prank, and that he 
did it for the fun of it (this has also been pointed out to 
you on more than one occasion).

The fact that you insist on offering this as evidence of 
anything other than the juvenile prank it was, shows that 
either you have absolutely no sense of judgement, or that 
you are deliberately misrepresenting this in order to 
discredit Dave.

Then, again, the tarbrush seems to be your primary line of 
defense when it comes to cooa debate.




________________________________________________________

[RJ]                 OS/2 - Live it, or live with it. 
rj friedman          Team ABW              
Taipei, Taiwan       rjf@yyycomasia.com 

To send email - remove the `yyy'
________________________________________________________

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: rjf@yyycomasia.com                                29-Aug-99 07:11:17
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 15:49:08
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: rjf@yyycomasia.com (rj friedman)

On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 20:39:49, "Brad Wardell" 
<bwardell@stardock.com> wrote:

īOther than a few people who are usually
īconsidered kooks themselves (RJ, Tholen, Tim Martin) I don't exactly have a
ī"mob" of detractors wherever I go...

Definition of `kook':

	Description of a person who has the effrontery 
	to disagree with Brad Wardell.

Maybe you can get your friends - Glatt and Sutherland - 
together and cook up a list of `hundreds' of names of people
who think I am a kook to prove your smear attempt.

Definition of Smear Tactic:

	1. Attempt to discredit another by making unsubstantiated 
	disparaging allegations about their character; said 
	allegations having no basis in fact. Used to
	devastating effect by one US Senator, Joseph 
	McCarthy, during his witch hunts as head 
	of the House UnAmerican Activities Committee.

	2. Primary debate tactic of Brad Wardell in cooa






________________________________________________________

[RJ]                 OS/2 - Live it, or live with it. 
rj friedman          Team ABW              
Taipei, Taiwan       rjf@yyycomasia.com 

To send email - remove the `yyy'
________________________________________________________

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: rjf@yyycomasia.com                                29-Aug-99 07:11:18
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 15:49:08
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: rjf@yyycomasia.com (rj friedman)

On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 20:39:49, "Brad Wardell" 
<bwardell@stardock.com> wrote:

[To Bennie]
īWho said anything about there being an error on your part?  Marty and Tholen
īwere arguing whether your analogy as originally stated could have more than
īa single interpretation.

That's not what they were arguing about. They were arguing 
about whether or not Marty's (and your) conclusion was 
logically valid. It was not.



________________________________________________________

[RJ]                 OS/2 - Live it, or live with it. 
rj friedman          Team ABW              
Taipei, Taiwan       rjf@yyycomasia.com 

To send email - remove the `yyy'
________________________________________________________

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From: malstrom@emily.oit.umass.edu                      29-Aug-99 02:32:04
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 15:49:08
Subj: Re: dont blame Gates for IBM not licensing Win32

From: JM <malstrom@emily.oit.umass.edu>

Steven C. Den Beste <sdenbes1@san.rr.com> wrote:
: On 28 Aug 1999 16:28:26 -0500, JM recycled some holes into the following
: pattern:

:>Kelly Robinson <ispy@groovyshow.com> wrote:
:>: IBM made Open32, which is a half-assed attempt at Win32 emulation which
:>: failed.
:>
:>Wrong David, it's a half-assed attempt of supporting the Win32 API on 
:>OS/2.  It's currently being used as the basis of the Odin-API project.

: According to Marty, they're having to rewrite most of it. I seem to remember
: that Timur reported that a lot of it was terribly slow.

That could be.  I do seem to remember them saying that they were pretty 
good back in the win32-os/2 days.  And on the Project design page they 
make it out as they are only filling in the holes to open32, but it is 
likely that the design has changed as they have gotten working on it.  I 
don't keep up with the minute by minute design plays, just what they put 
on their web page.

:>: There have been numerous third party fringe organizations who have tried
:>: making Win32 emulation work also.  Not entirely successful.
:>
:>Their is also Bochs, which is really slow.  Currently most people are not 
:>working on emulation but API support and binary conversion.
:>
:>: If you want Win32 support, get Windows XX or Linux+vmware (vmware also
runs
:>: OS/2 and BeOS)
:>
:>Wrong David, VMware doesn't run OS/2 or BeOS.  VMWare for Linux also 
:>costs $150 for personal use only.  If you want Win32 support get windows.
:>

: I'll agree with that. Trying to run WIN32 software on other operating
: systems is just going around Robin Hood's barn.

To tell you the truth, I have enough problems as it is trying to run 
Win32 software on Windows.  

-Jason

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From: malstrom@emily.oit.umass.edu                      29-Aug-99 02:18:04
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 15:49:08
Subj: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2

From: JM <malstrom@emily.oit.umass.edu>

I'm breaking the bad news to you guys, but it looks like Innoval is 
getting out of the OS/2 business.  In particular the following products 
are no longer supported:

Post Road Mailer for OS/2
J Street Mailer for Java
Web Willy Watch for OS/2

The full press release is at:

http://www.os2ss.com/warpcast/wc3980.html

The are quiting in a very dignified matter and I personally hold no 
grudge against them.  They will be missed.

-Jason

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From: malstrom@emily.oit.umass.edu                      29-Aug-99 02:22:24
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 15:49:08
Subj: Re: vmware mistake

From: JM <malstrom@emily.oit.umass.edu>

Esther Schindler <esther@bitranch.com> wrote:
: On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 20:50:37, tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith) wrote:

: | I'm curious.  Have you ever considered, just for the novelty value,
getting
: | something *right* for once?  

: Tim, the guy apologized already. He said he was wrong, and he went out
: of the way to point it out. The proper response is gracious acceptance
: of his error.

: How 'bout an attitude like, "Sheesh, we all miss stuff, every so 
: often, no big deal"? We're all people here, just trying to get the 
: most out of our computers.

: --Esther

No, he went out of his way to say that he was wrong about OS/2 being 
supported.  What he got wrong with his correction is OS/2 is the only 
other OS that is likely to be added to the supported list while all other 
operating systems won't be added.  He stated that OS/2 was the last on 
the list to supported, which is back ass backwards.  He has a history of 
getting the facts wrong.

-Jason 

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From: malstrom@emily.oit.umass.edu                      29-Aug-99 02:28:21
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 15:49:08
Subj: Re: dont blame Gates for IBM not licensing Win32

From: JM <malstrom@emily.oit.umass.edu>

Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> wrote:
: JM wrote:
:> 
:> Kelly Robinson <ispy@groovyshow.com> wrote:
:> : IBM made Open32, which is a half-assed attempt at Win32 emulation which
:> : failed.
:> 
:> Wrong David, it's a half-assed attempt of supporting the Win32 API on
:> OS/2.  It's currently being used as the basis of the Odin-API project.
:          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

: On what basis do you make this claim?

On the basis of this webpage:

http://www.netlabs.org/odin/ProjectDesign.html

which says:

===
As you can see from the picture, Odin builds on Open32 for providing the 
Odin32: Win32 API implementation in OS/2. IBM developed Open32 few years 
ago, implementing a relatively small subset of Win32 functions, but 
focused on those that are used most of the time. IBM's goal was not to 
enable available Win32 applications to work under OS/2, but to aid 
developers in porting those to OS/2. By providing most frequently used 
functions to developers, they allowed them to use Win32-like ways of 
creating windows on screen, placing buttons, doing inter-process 
communication, etc. Developers were supposed to be able to use the same 
code base for both Windows and OS/2 versions of their projects, or to 
easily port their Windows applications to OS/2. 

Odin32 DLLs access and heavily use functions available in Open32 because 
it allows smooth integration into the OS/2 environment and provides many 
API functions that don't need to be "reimplemented" but just mapped to 
the corresponding one in PMWINX.DLL. For example, Open32 provides 
complete set of functions that deal with the "Windows Registry" (it's 
where applications store it's settings) and has it's own registry 
database manager. 

However, IBM has changed focus to Java and platform neutral computing, so 
it downplayed Open32's importance and instead of providing further help 
to developers to port their applications to OS/2, they now suggest them 
to go straight to Java. Although this strategy makes sense in a 
long-term, Java is still "not there" for both performance and 
capabilities, so supporting "native" (tied to operating system and 
underlying CPU) applications is still important (and will remain for 
years to come). IBM realized that and for the benefits of porting Lotus' 
SmartSuite to OS/2 they have improved Open32 (for both performance and 
functionality) in FixPak 5/6 for Warp 4. Furthermore, they have 
introduced new graphic device driver model (GRADD) that, aside from other 
benefits, provides better support for Win32/Open32 way of handling 
graphical output, resulting in better performance.

It's unlikely that IBM will provide more Win32 API functions to Open32, 
since they have probably solved missing parts internally within their 
line of products. The future of Open32 lays in hands of independent 
developers that plan to extend it's functionality by implementing new API 
functions, work around some annoying bugs and overcome or remove certain 
limitations. For that task, merger with code and APIs implemented by WINE 
project will prove as most helpfull.

Therefore, all missing Win32 API functions must be implemented in 
supplemental DLL files. That's the job of Odin's WAI (Win32 API 
Implementation) Team.

===

-Jason

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: webbr@cruzio.com                                  28-Aug-99 23:57:29
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 15:49:08
Subj: Re: vmware mistake

From: "Ray Webb" <webbr@cruzio.com>

Of course IBM cares about its product.  I just got a e-mail from IBM on a
great deal for the DOS 2000!!!
In all the years I used OS/2 (93 - 98) never once did I get mail regarding a
new version.

Thanks,
  Ray
tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu wrote in message <7q9gns$30f$2@news.hawaii.edu>...
>Kelly Robinson writes:
>
>> If IBM doesn't give a rat about its product, why should anyone else?
>
>On what basis do you claim that IBM doesn't give a rat about its
>product?
>


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From: webbr@cruzio.com                                  28-Aug-99 23:52:07
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 15:49:08
Subj: Re: MS Losing Developers...

From: "Ray Webb" <webbr@cruzio.com>

Don't forget Jesus was a non-christian also.

Robert Morelli wrote in message <37C78F13.5C72@math.utah.edu>...
>Esther Schindler wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, 12 Aug 1999 15:43:31, rjf@yyycomasia.com (rj friedman) wrote:
>>
>> | For your edificationa and enjoyment,
>> | here are two items ...
>>
>> But RJ, I thought you didn't believe what the press said?
>>
>> --Esther
>
>I once knew a devout Christian who considered Josephus' testimony
compelling
>evidence in favor of Jesus' divinity,  despite the fact that Josephus was
>non-Christian (Jewish) scholar.  The issue was that Josephus conceded that
>some of Jesus' acts could not be explained,  despite the fact that he was
>not a follower.


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From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               29-Aug-99 04:16:29
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 15:49:08
Subj: Re: dont blame Gates for IBM not licensing Win32

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

JM wrote:
> 
> Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> wrote:
> : JM wrote:
> :>
> :> Kelly Robinson <ispy@groovyshow.com> wrote:
> :> : IBM made Open32, which is a half-assed attempt at Win32 emulation which
> :> : failed.
> :>
> :> Wrong David, it's a half-assed attempt of supporting the Win32 API on
> :> OS/2.  It's currently being used as the basis of the Odin-API project.
> :          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> : On what basis do you make this claim?
> 
> On the basis of this webpage:
> 
> http://www.netlabs.org/odin/ProjectDesign.html

And now for some evidence you haven't seen.  This excerpt is from the
Win32-OS/2 Windows API implementation project e-group:

*****************

On Sat, 21 Aug 1999 12:19:00 +0100 (MEZ), Achim Hasenmueller wrote:
>I have the following basic understanding of the changes:
>1) The resources of the Win32 exe/dlls will not be converted to OS/2
resources
>   anymore - they will be preserved as they are in the converted binaries
>   (does only pe.exe do this or also pe2lx.exe?)
That's right. The current code still handles converted resources, but that
will change in the near future.  Knut will handle the modifications
required for pe2lx/win32k, I'll focus on the ring 3 pe loader.

>2) All calls to LoadBitmap(), LoadString(), LoadDialog() (or similar) will
not
>   go to Open32 which expects OS/2 resources but will be fully implemented by
>   ourselves.
That's right. I've already done this for LoadString, LoadCursor &
LoadIcon.  I intend to finish it up this weekend.

>This requires a resource interpreter (as found in WINE) 
No, it only requires the (slightly modified) resource conversion code
already present in pe2lx.

>and code that actually
>creates a dialog from a resource description (dialog.c in WINE?). I would
like
>to work on the dialog code so I need to know how this has to be implemented.

It's basically a direct port from the Wine code. Those dialog apis that
receive a resource id instead of a pointer to the dialog template must call
FindResourceA/W to load the dialog resource (api returns a Win32Resource
pointer) and call the Win32Resource lockResource method to retrieve the
dialog template. After that's done, the ported Wine code should take care
of the rest.

>While browsing through the updates, I cannot see the above two things.
Today's
>changelog says that freecell doesn't work anymore because of OS/2 1.3
bitmaps.
>How can this be - I thought we would not convert anything with user32/new?
I'm converting cursors, bitmaps & icons, because we'll be using OS/2 apis
to display them.  LoadIcon & LoadCursor return OS/2 pointer handles,
because that's what Open32 does.  I think (Open32's) LoadBitmap returns a
gpi bitmap handle, but I'll have to check that.

Accelerators will also be converted, but dialogs won't.

>Please clarify the design so that I can really help with development.
Currently
>I would not know how to start and what to do.
I hope this explains it. Let me know if something is still not clear.

Sander

*****************

Everything mentioned here involves moving away from Open32 and
incorporating functionality into PE2LX, possibly from Wine.  I had a better
example earlier of when the decision to do this was made, but I deleted it
from my mailbox.  I think this illustrates the point.

- Marty

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: lsunley@mb.sympatico.ca                           29-Aug-99 09:39:07
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 15:49:08
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: lsunley@mb.sympatico.ca (Lorne Sunley)

On Sun, 29 Aug 1999 04:17:33, baden@unixg.ubc.ca   (Baden Kudrenecky) 
wrote:

> In <37C899FF.D4371FE0@WarpCity.com>, Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com>
writes:
> >I have just received the following from Dan Porter of
> >Innoval Systems Solutions, Inc.:
> 
>    How do we know this is true, i.e, why didn't i, as a licensed
> JStreet user get any notice about this, and why didn't Dan post
> it anywhere on his WWW site, which BTW, has nothing else on it
> but "Iceptur"?
> 

<lots of snip>

Their WWW site page has a link to 

http://st6.yahoo.com/innoval/os2software.html

This page has legends about downloading FREE
copies of the software and the quoted serial number
31571728 to activate Post Road Mailer

Lorne Sunley

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mike.luther@ziplog.com                            29-Aug-99 10:32:29
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 15:49:08
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: mike.luther@ziplog.com

In <37C899FF.D4371FE0@WarpCity.com>, Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com> writes:
>I have just received the following from Dan Porter of
>Innoval Systems Solutions, Inc.:
>
>From: Dan Porter  6:21 PM (PST), August 28, 1999
>Subject: InnoVal and OS/2
>To: os2guy@warpcity.com
>
>Effective immediately, InnoVal Systems Solutions, Inc. is withdrawing
>the following products from marketing and support.
>
>Post Road Mailer for OS/2
>J Street Mailer for Java
>Web Willy Watch for OS/2
>
>Anyone may download free copies of these products from our online store
>at http://stores.yahoo.com/innoval. In addition, anyone may freely
>distribute executable copies of the software through online software
>repositories and websites. You are encouraged to do so because we will
>only be able to keep them in our online store for a limited time. If you

Tim .. is there any way that those of us whom purchased the Spell
Checker for Post Road Mailer for OS/2 can get that code?  I, for
example, licensed and paid for it, but never got the actual code.  I'd
like to activate the feature, but can't find a copy of the code!

For me the paid-for version of PRM is a stable and very capable product.

//-----------------------------
Mike.Luther@ziplog.com
Mike.Luther@f3000.n117.z1.fidonet.org


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: flash-bounce@nym.alias.net                        29-Aug-99 13:06:26
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 15:49:08
Subj: (1/2) Warp_v4_SuperCharged! 

From: Anonymous <flash-bounce@nym.alias.net>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Installing HPFS386 into a Warp v4 client makes your system FASTER!.  If
you think, this hurts IBM, think again.  The reason IBM does'nt include
HPFS386 into Warp v4 is because MS charges HUGE royalties for EACH copy
of
HPFS386!.  Therefore, IBM only includes it with Warp Server.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
IF YOU ARE AN EXISTING OS/2 WARP USER, THIS GUIDE WILL DESCRIBE HOW YOU
MAY IMPROVE SYSTEM FILE I/O BY 5X TO 10X FACTOR.

note:  This information is provided for educational, and entertainment
purposes only.  

IT is Recommended to print this guide now or save to a file for future
reference.... ;)

Introduction

This is a guide or informative doc,  how to install a quite IMPROVED 
OS/2 Warp v4 to your PC.  This guide is published for intermediate to
power PC users.  Why could you be interested in OS/2?.:
 => Because it is a robust 32-bit OS
 => Excellent Internet services (TCP/IP)
 => Excellent GUI, (named as the best on an important Linux web site)
 => Good support from IBM (Service pak #11 released in july)
 => Excellent 32-bit applications available and 1000's of utilities
 => JVM v1.1.8  The best JVM as reported by Volano and other 
benchmarks
 => YEAR 2K READY!, and more

Want' to try a FREE screensaver?:
http://www.os2ss.com/warpcast/wc1129.html

When installing Wipeout Screen saver, don't install the toolkit with 
OS/2 v4...

This is a guide to OS/2 information, software, resources and more,.. 
if you like challenges, keep reading!.  This time you can setup a more 
powerful PC system than ever.  The final result of this setup maybe
called OS/2 Brutal-Force...

PC newspersons are welcome to build this setup for testing purposes 
and they can have a better prisma to report how good or bad OS/2 is.
Reporting about OS/2 without making reserch, installing it, and
installing appropiate Fixpacks is to be an UN-PROFESSIONAL newsperson.

ATTENTION INTERNATIONAL USERS!, LOTUS SMART SUITE V1.1 FOR OS/2 WARP 4
IS NOW AVAILABLE WITH MULTI-LANGUAGE SUPPORT!!

Sample of OS/2 Applications & Utilities, some with url links:
1) Lotus Smart Suite v1.1 (123, Word Pro, Organizer, 
Approach,Freelance)
http://www.lotus.com/home.nsf/welcome/smartsuiteos2
2) Netscape Communicator v4.61 (July 14, 1999 edition)
http://www.software.ibm.com/warp/netscape
3) IBM Visual Age for JAVA v2 (v3 in beta right now)
http://www.software.ibm.com/ad/vajava
4) Star Office v5.1 (German Office Suite that resembles Office)
http://www.stardivision.com
5) IBM Visual Age for C++ v4
http://www.spoftware.ibm.com/ad/visualge_c++
6) Doctor Solomon Anti-Virus, VirusScan v4.02
http://www.nai.com
7) SETI@OS2
http://www.os2ss.com/seti
8) Emtec FTP 5.06 (with resume capabilities)
ftp://ftp.us.emtec.com/netsuite/eftp506.zip
9)Gamma Tech v4.0
http://www.gt-online.com
10) Object desktop v2.0
http://www.stardock.com
11) PKZIP v2.50
http://www.pkware.com/shareware/pkos2250.html
12) MainActor v3.0 (in development)
13) Pronews v1.51 (excellent usenet reader)
http://hobbes.nmsu.edu
14) IBM TCP/IP v4.1 (32-bit)
15) and more files
http://hobbes.nmsu.edu

One of our goals is to demonstrate that OS/2 is an excellent OS
alternative.

You need a FTP client with resume downloads capabilities.  If you are an
existing OS/2 user, try; Emtec FTP 5.06.  To follow OS/2 topics, use;
Pronews Usenet Reader [highly recommended]

1)  ftp://merlin.itep.ru (lss;os2warez) 

Be patient, many persons are loggin almost every hour and every minute.
Best hours are 2-5 AM.  Warning: Stardock Essentials v2.0 crash OS/2. Be
careful and avoid installing it.  Process Commander is a nice
application, it will save you many problems. But it is recommended to
uninstall it before installing a Fixpack.  Install Process Commander
-=AFTER=- installing FP #11.

Note: OS/2 should be installed to a HPFS partition.  System behavior 
is much better than FAT.

IMPORTANT!!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~
HPFS386 IS NOT COMPATIBLE WITH PARTITION MAGIC (ACL).  Also, you could
have
BIG trouble executing HD utils NOT compatible with HPFS386!. This makes
sense for
an standalone OS/2 system.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~

Always check hardware for compatibility with OS/2,  Suggested 
installation procedure:
   1- Browse through KEY OS/2 web sites and learn about OS/2 
   2- Install OS/2 v4
   3- Install Must-Have utilities (more at the end of the doc)
   4- Get and install Netscape Communicator v4.61
      http://www.software.ibm.com/os/warp/netscape/
   5- Get and install OS/2 Feature Install Version 1.2.4 
      http://service.boulder.ibm.com/asd-bin/doc/en_us/catalog.htm  
   6- Get and install latest JAVA (1.1.7 or latest)
      http://service.boulder.ibm.com/asd-bin/doc/en_us/catalog.htm
   7- Enable software updates through the WWW                   
http://ps.boulder.ibm.com/pbin-usa-ps/getobj.pl?/pdocs-usa/softupd.htm
   8- Update OS/2 v4 (click the OS/2 v4 column, RSU, and Fixpack #11)
   9- Update Spooler
  10- Follow the instructions (be sure to NOT have other applications
running.)
  11- Go and hunt for TCP/IP v4.1 and install it.  This baby will allow
much better 'Interneting'
  12- Go and hunt for other OS/2 applications, particularly in FTP sites
in Russia
  13- Install Lotus Smart Suite v1.1, Star Office, File Manager and 
others. 
  14- Remember TEST DRIVE THEM and buy after 60 dayS TEST DRIVE

     
-------------------------------------------------------------------
and NOW Our Featured Presentation...

SUPER-CHARGE YOUR OS/2 SETUP.  HOW TO USE A BIGGER CACHE, 32-BIT FILE
SYSTEM AND 32-BIT DEVICE DRIVER.  MAKE YOUR OS/2 SYSTEM FASTER THAN
EVER.

HPFS386  --=> High Performance File System 

check fir it in alt.binaries.warez.os2, comp.os.os2.apps
or check around....

This hpfs386 is dated 06/11/99 and is the latest release.  if you're
just using hpfs.ifs,  you can improve your system performance with the
hpfs386 driver.

The hpfs386 is 32bit and can have any cache size you want, plus its
about 4x faster at writing and a bit faster at reading.  It will improve
the speed of your system. Instructions for installing are inside the
hpfs386 zip file. It is easy to do. The instructions are inside the ini
file itself in case you get lost. 

Another note: you'll need to update your config.sys. That information 
is also found in the hpfs386.zip file in the readme instructions.  The
entries are easy to add.  They can be  included at the end of your path
statements and you can literally mark/copy/paste the entry from the 
instruction file directly into your config.sys  paths.   

Make sure you make those entries in your config.sys before you reboot
your system so your system knows  what driver to use and where to find
it. You'll know it worked when 
you reboot and a single  statement across your screen says the hpfs386
driver was found.

HPFS INSTALLATION:
HPFS386 Installation on Warp3, Warp4 ..etc.

Make a directory under c:\ called ibm386fs and copy everything
in this package there..

Edit your config.sys, REM out the hpfs.ifs line, and add these:
IFS=C:\IBM386FS\HPFS386.IFS /A:*
CALL=C:\OS2\CMD.EXE /Q /C C:\IBM386FS\CACHE386.EXE >NUL

Add C:\IBM386FS; to your PATH, LIBPATH and DPATH

Edit HPFS386.INI and change the cachesize to whatever you want
(don't edit anything else!)

Reboot and enjoy!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
2) DANIS506 --=>
http://hobbes.nmsu.edu/pub/os2/system/drivers/storage/danis506.zip


                       Daniela's S506 ADD - Gamma 5
                        ------------------------------
Check for latest release in http://hobbes.nmsu.edu/incoming

NAME
     DaniS506.ADD  -  replacement for IBM1S506.ADD

ATTENTION, Test Results!

RESULTS REPORTED FROM INTEGRATING DANIS506.ADD -=>AND<=- HPFS386 
TO OS/2 AN WARP v4 SYSTEM:  Enjoy...... :)

Before Danis506+HPFS386  (Sysbench 0.9.4e)
>  File I/O - Drive D:
>    4Kb seq.   Uncached w :     3878.003    Kilobytes/second
>    4Kb seq.   Uncached r :     5811.515    Kilobytes/second
	.
	.
>    64K random Cached   w :     4906.782    Kilobytes/second
>    64K random Cached   r :     2672.974    Kilobytes/second
>    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>    Total                 :     3096.124    File I/O-marks
>                               ==========

AFTER DANIS506+HPFS386
>  File I/O - Drive D:
>    4Kb seq.   Uncached w :     2268.435    Kilobytes/second
>    4Kb seq.   Uncached r :    30223.332    Kilobytes/second
	.
	.
>    64K random Cached   w :    57649.151    Kilobytes/second
>    64K random Cached   r :    52182.161    Kilobytes/second
>    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>    Total                 :    31493.542    File I/O-marks
>                              ============

System File I/O-marks increased by a factor of 10X!, sure your results
will vary but it seems a definitive and substantial improvement that
positions OS/2 Warp v4 as a quite attractive computing and SOHO
platform.

What is a Fixpack?

For a complete description,check:
http://www.os2ezine.com/v1n4/fixpak.html

To UPDATE your system to the most recent fixpack level check:
http://ps.boulder.ibm.com/pbin-usa-ps/getobj.pl?/pdocs-usa/softupd.htm

TIP: You will need a file named RSUINST.EXE  download it from

http://ps.boulder.ibm.com/pbin-usa-ps/getobj.pl?/pdocs-usa/softupd.htm
l#warp34

Now your OS/2 v4 should run like a champ!, browse through OS/2
newsgroups for any help or question you may have :/

If for any reason OS/2 'hangs' while booting, you have a 'MIRACLE' 
KEYpress ALT-F1 while OS/2 boots (There will be a small OS/2 rectangle
in the upper left corner of your monitor...  Follow the alternatives o
FIX the CONFIG.SYS file  if you messed with it...It will be wise to 
make backup copies of OS2.INI and OS2SYS.INI files. Use FM/2 file
manager to do it.

Try to have BACKUP copies of CONFIG.SYS.  just in case......If you need
help:
comp.os.os2.apps,comp.os.os2.beta,comp.os.os2.bugs,comp.os.os2.setup.misc
comp.os.os2.setup.video,comp.os.os2.setup.storage

Hardware considerations:

IBM HAS DEVELOPED OS/2 DEVICE DRIVER PAK ONLINE, THIS WEB SITE HAVE
THOUNSANDS OF DRIVERS.  
http://service.software.ibm.com/os2ddpak/index.htm

-=-> Last choice, replace the UNSUPPORTED COMPONENT for a supported
ONE.  This will depend on your motivation to use OS/2 Warp v4 <-=-=-

OS/2 WARP - SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS
Minimum Hardware Configuration. The hardware requirements for OS/2 
Warp 4 vary depending on the 
options installed and the applications you wish to run on the   
machine. Here are the minimum requirements for 
a typical computer environment: 486 or better CPU, 32MB RAM (or more),
ATAPI CD ROM, 100-300 MB HD.
OS/2 supported sound card for audio and multimedia applications
       
TIP:
If after installing an application you notice problems, edit OS2.INI 
file and remove references to the 
application.

KEY LINKS: --=> These are the best places for  OS/2 information: <=--

Information for OS/2 new users or potential ones:
A must for anyone that want to know the TRUTH about OS/2!
http://www.os2ss.com/Information/NewUsers/
http://www.honeycomb.net/os/oses/os2.htm

EZINES:
http://www.os2ezine.com
http://www.os2ss.com
http://www.edm2.com/
http://os2about.com

OS/2 FILES
http://hobbes.nmsu.edu
http://www.os2bbs.com
http://service.boulder.ibm.com/asd-bin/doc/en_us/catalog.htm
http://www.leo.org/archiv/software/os2/
ftp://merlin.itep.ru   [lss;os2warez]

OS/2 NEWS
http://www.os2ss.com/news
http://www.warpcast.com

VENDORS:
http://www.indelible-blue.com/scott/ibnews.nsf
http://www.bmtmicro.com

JAVA IDES THAT SUPPORT OS/2
Visual Age For JAVA - less than $90
http://www.software.ibm.com/ad/

Netbeans - FREE
http://www.netbeans.com

Simplicity for JAVA
http://www.datarepresentations.com/

Netrexx - FREE
http://www2.hursley.ibm.com/netrexx/

IBM ALPHAWORKS Web Site -  FREE
http://www.alphaWorks.ibm.com/formula

More information about OS/2 and JAVA
http://www.doofus.org/Java/

Check The OS/2 alternative Web Site: 
http://www.tstonramp.com/~freiheit/os2apps.shtml

WIN32 Support in OS/2:
http://www.netlabs.org/odin/

Linux/Unix and OS/2:
http://www.netlabs.org/everblue/

Check OS/2 organizations like:
http://www.netlabs.org
http://en.os2.org

Virtual Pascal
http://www.fprint.co.uk/products/virtual_pascal/

OS/2 and Sound Cards
http://www.tabi.org/timur/crystalos2.html

PKZIP v2.50
http://www.pkware.com

Remember:  Buy those applications  *IF*  you decide to continue use 
them's after 6 months TEST DRIVE

Other links:
Watcom C++ Compiler v11.0a
Nader Letter to IBM:
http://www.zdnet.com/sr/breaking/980608/980608f.html
WWW WYSIWYG editor
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/clerin/
Large OS/2 Customer list
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~meile/los2cl.html
XIMATI OS/2 Web Server - FREE
http://www.imatix.com/html/xitami/index.htm
V C++ GUI Development framework
http://www.objectcentral.com/
Warp 4  Engage
http://www2.hu-berlin.de/~h0444vnd/os2.htm
White Paper:  Advantages of OS/2 v4 over  WIN NT v4
http://www.minzdat.ch/forum/tanos/pages/merlinnt2.htm
Cable modems and OS/2 Warp v4
http://members.home.net/bhubley/cableintro.html
Blackdeath software
http://sprk.com/blackdeath/
Pillarsoft
http://www.pillarsoft.net/
DIGITAL Cameras and OS/2
http://users.uniserve.ca/~software/dcitu/index.html
Independent developer
http://en.os2.org/projects/indos2/
Config documentation
http://www.online.de/home/os2/csdp/about.htm
The OS/2 HISTORY
http://www.hartnell.cc.ca.us/student/hacnc/altos/OS2History.html
Visual PROLOG
http://www.visual-prolog.com/vip/vipinfo/freeware_version.htm
SETI
http://www.os2ss.com/seti

Like Arcade GAMES?, try M.A.M.E.

http://hobbes.nmsu.edu/cgi-bin/h-search?key=mame&pushbutton=Search
ROMS:
http://www.ArcadeAtHome.com/

Last but not least,we are seeking developers to join OS/2.  Tools 
available includes JAVA, C++ (GNU, Visual 
Age for C++ v4),  Pascal, Rexx, Netrexx. There are others.

THE OS/2 WARP DEVELOPERS TOOLKIT IS AVAILABLE AT ONE OF THE TWO URL'S
PROVIDED HERE. JOIN OS/2 NOW!

Join one of many projects at http://www.netlabs.org

Maybe, it will be WISE to buy OS/2 V4 rather than try to download it 
since it is a 250MB file.  LOTUS SS v1.1 

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
 * Origin: Usenet: mail2news@nym.alias.net (1:109/42)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: flash-bounce@nym.alias.net                        29-Aug-99 13:06:26
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 15:49:08
Subj: (2/2) Warp_v4_SuperCharged! 

could be downloaded with EMTEC FTP and resuming file download will be 
required since many users are
connecting to those URL's. YES This message is working!...

Note:
OS/2 v4 is available from Indelible Blue..

NOTE:
If you don't want to bother downloading The OS/2 Warp 250MB file or 
LOTUS SMART SUITE V1.1 (1999) 
Edition , Goto INDELIBLE BLUE:

   * LOTUS SMART SUITE ACADEMIC VERSION IS ONLY $83  (AN648NA)
http://www.indelible-blue.com/ibapps/products.nsf/by+partnumber/AN645N
A

   * OS/2 V4 ACADEMIC VERSION IS ONLY $85 (84H7459)
http://www.indelible-blue.com/ibapps/products.nsf/by+partnumber/84H745
9)

What it takes?  The  GUTS to install OS/2 Are you so GOOD?

TIP:
USE ALT-F1 WHEN BOOTING FAILS.  IT IS NOT COMMON BUT THIS IS A GREAT
TRICK!
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
IMPORTANT NOTE:
If you find this info interesting or useful, save to a file NOW!.  You
don't know when you may need it!.  Also, 
you could make copies (or forward through email) for your friends.  
This guide will not be posted
anymore to usenet.  Maybe someone could post it from time to time...

WHAT YOU CAN DO?:
   * Forward this message to your friends. You could forward through 
an
     anonymous remailer.  More about remailers later..
   * Forward (through anonymous remailers also) to PC Newspersons
        o Techwire
        o Infoworld
        o PC World
        o ZDNet
        o Or other
   * Post (anonymously, if you want) to OS-related Newsgroups
   * Tell PC media you use, like and use OS/2
   * Ask the press for better coverage of OS/2 (ZDNet, Infoworld,
     Techweb)
   * If you are an OS expert and have capabilities and bandwidth
     resources to put online an FTP server,(someone in Europe? 
     or latin america?) with key apps, utils, etc..

Must Have utilities (THE BASICS):

A)    INFOZIP UNZIP (EQUIVALENT TO PKUNZIP.EXE)
ftp://hobbes.nmsu.edu/pub/os2/archiver/unz540x2.exe
Installation:
1)make dir \UNZIP in c: d: or whatever OS/2 partition
2)copy and extract unz540x2.exe into \unzip
3)edit config.sys and add \unzip to the path
4)remember to end \unzip reference in the path with ;

B)    FILE_MANAGER
ftp://ftp.bmtmicro.com/bmtmicro/fm2_301.zip
Installation:
1)make dir \FM2 (or whatever) in c: d: or whatever OS/2 partition
2)copy and extract fm2_301.zip \FM2 (or whatever)
3)run install.cmd

C)    CONFIG.SYS  ANALYZER OPTIMIZER
ftp://hobbes.nmsu.edu/pub/os2/util/config/cfgmt100.zip
Installation
1) Make dir \cfgmt (or whatever)
2) Copy cfgmt100.zip and extract with unzip.exe
3) run install.cmd

D)    EMX (optional, required for some utilities and GNU)
ftp://hobbes.nmsu.edu/pub/os2/dev/emx/v0.9d/emxrt.zip

Installation
1) copy emxrt.zip to c:\ (root)
2) unzip with unzip.exe (it should create a sub-dir \emx, test first 
in
other dir if you want)
3) Add \emx\bin to config.sys path, add emx\dll to config.sys library
path

E)    Sysbench 0.9.e
ftp://hobbes.nmsu.edu/pub/os2/util/benchmark/sysb094e.zip

F)    Memsize - System Resources Monitor
http://www.msen.com/~rpapo

G)    Process Commander (after basic Install, upgrade with pcfix1.zip)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
PC Newsreporters, what we can do with them?.  Ok, we can suggest to 
forward (anonymously) this message to the news person of your choice.
This will tell them how to 'tweak' OS/2 for greater performance.  Linux
user's like to tweak their systems (and press people respect that) we 
have the right to make the same to our 
OS.

You can choose anyone and send this message to make them aware that 
OS/2 can be Super-Charged.  Maybe, one of them could have the guts (or
courage) to make it and run some benchmarks against Win 98, Win 2000,
and Win NT 4.  It should be interesting to see results with  a
Super-Charged OS/2 setup (FP11, DANIS506, and HPFS386) against Win 98,
Win 2000, and Win NT 4.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Newspersons and email contact info...
You may also send a copy of this guide to your prefered newsperson to 
make he(she) aware of the OS/2 
"Tweak" and Tricks included here.  You may want to send via 
anonymous... see below...

 Name                   	email address                 
Publication/WebSite
 Infoworld              	electric@infoworld.com        	InfoWorld
 Mary Joe Foley         	mfoley@zd.com                 	Sm@rtReseller
 Tom Yager              	tyager@maxx.net               	InfoWorld
 Charles Cooper         	charles_cooper@zd.com         	ZDNET News
 Editor                 	pcmag@zd.com                  	PC Magazine 
 John Clyman            	john_clyman@zd.com            	PC Magazine 
 Michael Fitzgerald     	michael_fitzgerald@zd.com     	ZDNET
 Maria Seminerio        	maria_seminerio@zd.com        	ZDNET
 Sean Silverthorne      	sean_silverthorne@zd.com      	ZDNET
 ZDNet Benchmarks 	zdbopwebmaster@zd.com 	ZD Benchmarks
 Scott Berlinato        	scott_berinato@zd.com         	PC Week
 Claudia Graziano       	claudia_graziano@zd.com       	PC Week
 John Madden            	john_madden@zd.com            	PC Week
 James Miller           	james_miller@zd.com           	PC Magazine
 Alan Zeichick          	zeichick@camdenassociates.com TechWeb/CMP
 David Lidski           	dlidsky@zd.com               	PC Magazine
 Sharon Terdeman 	sharon_terdeman@zd.com        	PC Magazine
 Wayne Rash     	wrash@mindspring.com          	TechWeb/CMP
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How to send anonymous email and/or post anonimously to usenet:
http://www.skuz.net/potatoware/reli/UserMan.htm
http://www.replay.com/remailer/
http://mail2news.cjb.net/
ttp://www.mute.dircon.co.uk/remailers.html
http://www.metcorp.com/sean/remail.html
http://www.skuz.net/potatoware/reli/UserMan.htm
NEWSGROUP: alt.privacy.anon-server
thread--=> List of Reliable Remailers --=> Updated daily!

NOTE: SOME REMAILERS ARE UP/AND DOWN EASILY. Test First!, and test 
with
dummy messages to some dummy newsgroup.  

::
request-remailing-to: remailer@replay.com

::
request-remailing-to: remailer@xxxxx.com

::
Anon-post-to:newsgroup
or 
Anon-to: john_doe@columbia.net

##
subject:whatever
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Remailers reliability and info...
alt.privacy.anon-server

Attention if you receive this doc, please forward to a fellow worker 
who might be interested in this info...

INTERESTING TIP:
You can forward this message from usenet to your own email account 
(Pronews forward, right side) and 'Edit Message as New' with
Communicator 4.61 and repost to usenet if you want or forward to a
friend or to a newsperson.

Chiao!

Extra:
modify config.sys
SET MENUSFOLLOWPOINTER=YES

and you will have a more functional mouse pointer..ala Win 95!

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
 * Origin: Usenet: mail2news@nym.alias.net (1:109/42)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mawa@iname.com                                    28-Aug-99 12:27:29
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 15:49:08
Subj: Re: A problem with flags 

From: mawa@iname.com (Matthias Warkus)

It was the Sat, 28 Aug 1999 01:36:50 GMT...
..and Mayor Of R'lyeh <ev515o@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Aug 1999 23:07:23 +0200, mawa@iname.com (Matthias Warkus)
> chose to bless us with this bit of wisdom:
> 
> >It was the Thu, 26 Aug 1999 15:46:30 -0400...
> >..and Peter <pxpst2@vms.cis.pitt.edu> wrote:
> >> MS windows domination is more akin to stalinist Russia.
> >> 
> >> Why not be American and let the user decide?  Freedom of choice is RED
> >> WHITE AND BLUE, IMO.  Why should one HAVE to use this platform or that
> >> platform?  
> >
> >Waaah! This is so absurd I can't believe it. "Why not be an
> >American... red, white and blue..."
> >
> >Red, white and blue are the colours of the Russian flag, too. Just for
> >your information.
> >
> >mawa
> 
> Not of Stalinist Russia they weren't.

While of course the *Soviet* flag was not red, white and blue
(probably you mean the Soviet Union when you say "Stalinist Russia"),
I don't know what the RSFSR's flag was like.

mawa
-- 
When I went to the theatre, recently, I saw a woman who wore nothing
but a transparent catsuit over a black bodice that was cut out down to
the navel. I don't know whether she felt naked. She sure looked naked.
                                                               -- mawa

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
 * Origin: Usenet: Question Mark Software   /   Royal Space Navy (1:109/42)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: piquant00@uswestmail.net                          29-Aug-99 13:45:27
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 15:49:09
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: piquant00@uswestmail.net (Annie K.)

On Sun, 29 Aug 1999 04:17:33, baden@unixg.ubc.ca   (Baden Kudrenecky) 
wrote:

:  How do we know this is true, i.e, why didn't i, as a licensed
: JStreet user get any notice about this, and why didn't Dan post
: it anywhere on his WWW site, which BTW, has nothing else on it
: but "Iceptur"?

 See http://st6.yahoo.com/innoval/os2software.html

-- 
Anthropomorphic Hamburger

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: gbritton@!britton.dhs.org                         29-Aug-99 15:20:02
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 15:49:09
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: "Gerry Britton" <gbritton@!britton.dhs.org>

On Sun, 29 Aug 1999 04:17:33 GMT, Baden Kudrenecky wrote:

>>I have just received the following from Dan Porter of
>>Innoval Systems Solutions, Inc.:
>
>   How do we know this is true, i.e, why didn't i, as a licensed
>JStreet user get any notice about this, and why didn't Dan post
>it anywhere on his WWW site, which BTW, has nothing else on it
>but "Iceptur"?

It's true, Baden. Warpcast carried the announcement from Mr. Porter.


--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: bwardell@mw.mediaone.net                          29-Aug-99 15:58:11
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 16:52:17
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: "Brad Wardell" <bwardell@mw.mediaone.net>

Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:37C8D008.DEBDF80A@stny.rr.com...
> tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu wrote:
> >
> > Karel Jansens writes [to Brad Wardell]:
> >
> > > Just one more thing: you _do_ realise that to all the participants and
> > > lurkers in this group you are representing Stardock Systems, don't
> > > you? I mean, I can make a complete arse of myself and Dave Tholen can
> > > be as obnoxious as he wants to be, neither of us are going to lose
> > > even a cent in that. But if you should start painting yourself as a
> > > prejudiced bigot, don't you think that would reflect in your business?
> >
> > I've already been told privately that Stardock products would be
> > avoided because of Brad's behavior here.  One person even told me
> > that he emailed that statement directly to Brad.  Brad just treated
> > him the same way he treats me.
>
> His loss, not Brad's.

Just for the record, in the 7 years I've been on Usenet I've never had
someone email me and say they wouldn't buy a product from my employer
because of my opinions expressed on Usenet.

I do not think that a reasonable person would read what I wrote originally
on this topic and find it "bigoted".  In fact, I think most people consider
is a plus when people take into account the opinions of others when making a
decision.  To me, Karel's statements merely strike me as that of an
extremist now.

>
> > > I won't even answer to the rest of that paragraph. Anybody who thinks
> > > that mob justice is an example of "societal norms" is way beyond me
> > > anyway.
> >
> > Bravo!  But it's a wonderful example of Brad's brand of reasoning.
>
> Yeah.  Realism.

I find it strange that Karel and Bennie has repeatedly gone out of his way
to deny that the Christ analogy somehow compared Tholen's detractors with
that of a mindless mob.  Yet, here it is in his own words -- those who don't
like Tholen are a "mob".  Whatever illusion of impartiality that Karel may
have had before is clearly gone at this point.

Brad



--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: bwardell@mw.mediaone.net                          29-Aug-99 16:01:24
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 16:52:17
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: "Brad Wardell" <bwardell@mw.mediaone.net>

Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:37C8D84A.64A783AF@stny.rr.com...
> Tim Martin wrote:
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > On a personal note:  I have been privileged to work and correspond
> > with Dan Porter and the fine folks at InnoVal for several years now.
>
> Not suggesting that you should be, but why aren't you upset with them and
> calling them Microsoft Salesmen for abandoning OS/2 for windoze
> development?  Is this not what Stardock has done (to a much lessor degree)
> yet you attack them relentlessly?  I just want to understand what's
> different about this situation.  Is it all personal against BW?
>

Actually it's not what Stardock has done.  Stardock still makes and updates
its OS/2 software.  It still provides unlimited free techncial support via
email, news group and phone for its OS/2 software.  Stardock still has OS/2
software in the works.

I completely understand Dan's reasons for what he's done and I wish him
well.  But I certainly see the hypocricy in the treatment from Tim
Martin/Warp City here.  Innoval drops all their OS/2 software in favor of a
Windows only program and Tim says not a negative thing about it.  ONE of
Stardock's new games doesn't have an OS/2 version and he creates an entire
set of flame posts "Stardock Snub" and whatnot on this very newsgroup --
totally ignoring the fact that the other major game being worked on --
Stellar Frontier has an OS/2 version and is publicly available for testing.

Brad

> - Marty


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: ev515o@hotmail.com                                29-Aug-99 16:11:04
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 16:52:17
Subj: Re: A problem with flags 

From: ev515o@hotmail.com (Mayor Of R'lyeh)

On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 12:27:58 +0200, mawa@iname.com (Matthias Warkus)
chose to bless us with this bit of wisdom:

>It was the Sat, 28 Aug 1999 01:36:50 GMT...
>..and Mayor Of R'lyeh <ev515o@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 26 Aug 1999 23:07:23 +0200, mawa@iname.com (Matthias Warkus)
>> chose to bless us with this bit of wisdom:
>> 
>> >It was the Thu, 26 Aug 1999 15:46:30 -0400...
>> >..and Peter <pxpst2@vms.cis.pitt.edu> wrote:
>> >> MS windows domination is more akin to stalinist Russia.
>> >> 
>> >> Why not be American and let the user decide?  Freedom of choice is RED
>> >> WHITE AND BLUE, IMO.  Why should one HAVE to use this platform or that
>> >> platform?  
>> >
>> >Waaah! This is so absurd I can't believe it. "Why not be an
>> >American... red, white and blue..."
>> >
>> >Red, white and blue are the colours of the Russian flag, too. Just for
>> >your information.
>> >
>> >mawa
>> 
>> Not of Stalinist Russia they weren't.
>
>While of course the *Soviet* flag was not red, white and blue
>(probably you mean the Soviet Union when you say "Stalinist Russia"),
>I don't know what the RSFSR's flag was like.
>
>mawa

The Soviet Union was nothing but the Russian Empire with a spiffy new
name and ruling set.


-- 

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: ispy@groovyshow.com                               29-Aug-99 10:15:04
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 16:52:17
Subj: (1/2) Re:  The case for OS/2 Warp, a Super-Charged OS        ~~~~~~~~~~

From: "Kelly Robinson" <ispy@groovyshow.com>

Why don't you vermin youself back to the OS/2 group where you belong?

Anonymous <nobody@neuropa.net> wrote in message
news:199908291436.OAA26225@berlin.neuropa.net...
> Check: alt.binaries.warez.os2
>
> IF YOU ARE AN EXISTING OS/2 WARP USER, THIS GUIDE WILL DESCRIBE HOW YOU
> MAY IMPROVE SYSTEM FILE I/O BY 5X TO 10X FACTOR.
>
> note:  This information is provided for educational, and entertainment
> purposes only.
>
> IT is Recommended to print this guide now or save to a file for future
> reference.... ;)
>
> Introduction
>
> This is a guide or informative doc,  how to install a quite IMPROVED
> OS/2 Warp v4 to your PC.  This guide is published for intermediate to
> power PC users.  Why could you be interested in OS/2?.:
>  => Because it is a robust 32-bit OS
>  => Excellent Internet services (TCP/IP)
>  => Excellent GUI, (named as the best on an important Linux web site)
>  => Good support from IBM (Service pak #11 released in july)
>  => Excellent 32-bit applications available and 1000's of utilities
>  => JVM v1.1.8  The best JVM as reported by Volano and other benchmarks
>  => YEAR 2K READY!, and more
>
> Want' to try a FREE screensaver?:
> http://www.os2ss.com/warpcast/wc1129.html
>
> When installing Wipeout Screen saver, don't install the toolkit with
> OS/2 v4...
>
> This is a guide to OS/2 information, software, resources and more,..
> if you like challenges, keep reading!.  This time you can setup a more
> powerful PC system than ever.  The final result of this setup maybe
> called OS/2 Brutal-Force...
>
> PC newspersons are welcome to build this setup for testing purposes
> and they can have a better prisma to report how good or bad OS/2 is.
> Reporting about OS/2 without making reserch, installing it, and
> installing appropiate Fixpacks is to be an UN-PROFESSIONAL newsperson.
>
> ATTENTION INTERNATIONAL USERS!, LOTUS SMART SUITE V1.1 FOR OS/2 WARP 4
> IS NOW AVAILABLE WITH MULTI-LANGUAGE SUPPORT!!
>
> Sample of OS/2 Applications & Utilities, some with url links:
> 1) Lotus Smart Suite v1.1 (123, Word Pro, Organizer,
> Approach,Freelance)
> http://www.lotus.com/home.nsf/welcome/smartsuiteos2
> 2) Netscape Communicator v4.61 (July 14, 1999 edition)
> http://www.software.ibm.com/warp/netscape
> 3) IBM Visual Age for JAVA v2 (v3 in beta right now)
> http://www.software.ibm.com/ad/vajava
> 4) Star Office v5.1 (German Office Suite that resembles Office)
> http://www.stardivision.com
> 5) IBM Visual Age for C++ v4
> http://www.spoftware.ibm.com/ad/visualge_c++
> 6) Doctor Solomon Anti-Virus, VirusScan v4.02
> http://www.nai.com
> 7) SETI@OS2
> http://www.os2ss.com/seti
> 8) Emtec FTP 5.06 (with resume capabilities)
> ftp://ftp.us.emtec.com/netsuite/eftp506.zip
> 9)Gamma Tech v4.0
> http://www.gt-online.com
> 10) Object desktop v2.0
> http://www.stardock.com
> 11) PKZIP v2.50
> http://www.pkware.com/shareware/pkos2250.html
> 12) MainActor v3.0 (in development)
> 13) Pronews v1.51 (excellent usenet reader)
> http://hobbes.nmsu.edu
> 14) IBM TCP/IP v4.1 (32-bit)
> 15) Innoval PostRoad Mailer (email, now FREE)
> http://st6.yahoo.com/innoval/os2software.html
> 16) Innoval web WilliWatch (Net Nanny)
> http://st6.yahoo.com/innoval/os2software.html
> 17) and more files
> http://hobbes.nmsu.edu
>
> One of our goals is to demonstrate that OS/2 is an excellent OS
> alternative.
>
> You need a FTP client with resume downloads capabilities.  If you are an
> existing OS/2 user, try; Emtec FTP 5.06.  To follow OS/2 topics, use;
> Pronews Usenet Reader [highly recommended]
>
> 1)  ftp://merlin.itep.ru (lss;os2warez)
>
> Be patient, many persons are loggin almost every hour and every minute.
> Best hours are 2-5 AM.  Warning: Stardock Essentials v2.0 crash OS/2. Be
> careful and avoid installing it.  Process Commander is a nice
> application, it will save you many problems. But it is recommended to
> uninstall it before installing a Fixpack.  Install Process Commander
> -=AFTER=- installing FP #11.
>
> Note: OS/2 should be installed to a HPFS partition.  System behavior
> is much better than FAT.
>
> IMPORTANT!!!
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~
> HPFS386 IS NOT COMPATIBLE WITH PARTITION MAGIC (ACL).  Also, you could
> have BIG trouble executing HD utils NOT compatible with HPFS386!. This
> makes
> sense for an standalone OS/2 system.
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~
>
> Always check hardware for compatibility with OS/2,  Suggested
> installation procedure:
>    1- Browse through KEY OS/2 web sites and learn about OS/2
>    2- Install OS/2 v4
>    3- Install Must-Have utilities (more at the end of the doc)
>    4- Get and install Netscape Communicator v4.61
>       http://www.software.ibm.com/os/warp/netscape/
>    5- Get and install OS/2 Feature Install Version 1.2.4
>       http://service.boulder.ibm.com/asd-bin/doc/en_us/catalog.htm
>    6- Get and install latest JAVA (1.1.7 or latest)
>       http://service.boulder.ibm.com/asd-bin/doc/en_us/catalog.htm
>    7- Enable software updates through the WWW
> http://ps.boulder.ibm.com/pbin-usa-ps/getobj.pl?/pdocs-usa/softupd.htm
>    8- Update OS/2 v4 (click the OS/2 v4 column, RSU, and Fixpack #11)
>    9- Update Spooler
>   10- Follow the instructions (be sure to NOT have other applications
> running.)
>   11- Go and hunt for TCP/IP v4.1 and install it.  This baby will allow
> much better 'Interneting'
>   12- Go and hunt for other OS/2 applications, particularly in FTP sites
> in Russia
>   13- Install Lotus Smart Suite v1.1, Star Office, File Manager and
> others.
>   14- Remember TEST DRIVE THEM and buy after 60 dayS TEST DRIVE
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> and NOW Our Featured Presentation...
>
> SUPER-CHARGE YOUR OS/2 SETUP.  HOW TO USE A BIGGER CACHE, 32-BIT FILE
> SYSTEM AND 32-BIT DEVICE DRIVER.  MAKE YOUR OS/2 SYSTEM FASTER THAN
> EVER.
>
> HPFS386  --=> High Performance File System
>
> check fir it in alt.binaries.warez.os2, comp.os.os2.apps
> or check around....
>
> This hpfs386 is dated 06/11/99 and is the latest release.  if you're
> just using hpfs.ifs,  you can improve your system performance with the
> hpfs386 driver.
>
> The hpfs386 is 32bit and can have any cache size you want, plus its
> about 4x faster at writing and a bit faster at reading.  It will improve
> the speed of your system. Instructions for installing are inside the
> hpfs386 zip file. It is easy to do. The instructions are inside the ini
> file itself in case you get lost.
>
> Another note: you'll need to update your config.sys. That information
> is also found in the hpfs386.zip file in the readme instructions.  The
> entries are easy to add.  They can be  included at the end of your path
> statements and you can literally mark/copy/paste the entry from the
> instruction file directly into your config.sys  paths.
>
> Make sure you make those entries in your config.sys before you reboot
> your system so your system knows  what driver to use and where to find
> it. You'll know it worked when
> you reboot and a single  statement across your screen says the hpfs386
> driver was found.
>
> HPFS INSTALLATION:
> HPFS386 Installation on Warp3, Warp4 ..etc.
>
> Make a directory under c:\ called ibm386fs and copy everything
> in this package there..
>
> Edit your config.sys, REM out the hpfs.ifs line, and add these:
> IFS=C:\IBM386FS\HPFS386.IFS /A:*
> CALL=C:\OS2\CMD.EXE /Q /C C:\IBM386FS\CACHE386.EXE >NUL
>
> Add C:\IBM386FS; to your PATH, LIBPATH and DPATH
>
> Edit HPFS386.INI and change the cachesize to whatever you want
> (don't edit anything else!)
>
> Reboot and enjoy!
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> 2) DANIS506 --=>
> http://hobbes.nmsu.edu/pub/os2/system/drivers/storage/danis506.zip
>
>
>                        Daniela's S506 ADD - Gamma 5
>                         ------------------------------
> Check for latest release in http://hobbes.nmsu.edu/incoming
>
> NAME
>      DaniS506.ADD  -  replacement for IBM1S506.ADD
>
> ATTENTION, Test Results!
>
> RESULTS REPORTED FROM INTEGRATING DANIS506.ADD -=>AND<=- HPFS386
> TO OS/2 AN WARP v4 SYSTEM:  Enjoy...... :)
>
> Before Danis506+HPFS386  (Sysbench 0.9.4e)
> >  File I/O - Drive D:
> >    4Kb seq.   Uncached w :     3878.003    Kilobytes/second
> >    4Kb seq.   Uncached r :     5811.515    Kilobytes/second
> .
> .
> >    64K random Cached   w :     4906.782    Kilobytes/second
> >    64K random Cached   r :     2672.974    Kilobytes/second
>
  -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >    Total                 :     3096.124    File I/O-marks
> >                               ==========
>
> AFTER DANIS506+HPFS386
> >  File I/O - Drive D:
> >    4Kb seq.   Uncached w :     2268.435    Kilobytes/second
> >    4Kb seq.   Uncached r :    30223.332    Kilobytes/second
> .
> .
> >    64K random Cached   w :    57649.151    Kilobytes/second
> >    64K random Cached   r :    52182.161    Kilobytes/second
>
  -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >    Total                 :    31493.542    File I/O-marks
> >                              ============
>
> System File I/O-marks increased by a factor of 10X!, sure your results
> will vary but it seems a definitive and substantial improvement that
> positions OS/2 Warp v4 as a quite attractive computing and SOHO
> platform.
>
> What is a Fixpack?
>
> For a complete description,check:
> http://www.os2ezine.com/v1n4/fixpak.html
>
> To UPDATE your system to the most recent fixpack level check:
> http://ps.boulder.ibm.com/pbin-usa-ps/getobj.pl?/pdocs-usa/softupd.htm
>
> TIP: You will need a file named RSUINST.EXE  download it from
>
> http://ps.boulder.ibm.com/pbin-usa-ps/getobj.pl?/pdocs-usa/softupd.htm
> l#warp34
>
> Now your OS/2 v4 should run like a champ!, browse through OS/2
> newsgroups for any help or question you may have :/
>
> If for any reason OS/2 'hangs' while booting, you have a 'MIRACLE'
> KEYpress ALT-F1 while OS/2 boots (There will be a small OS/2 rectangle
> in the upper left corner of your monitor...  Follow the alternatives o
> FIX the CONFIG.SYS file  if you messed with it...It will be wise to
> make backup copies of OS2.INI and OS2SYS.INI files. Use FM/2 file
> manager to do it.
>
> Try to have BACKUP copies of CONFIG.SYS.  just in case......If you need
> help:
> comp.os.os2.apps,comp.os.os2.beta,comp.os.os2.bugs,comp.os.os2.setup.misc
> comp.os.os2.setup.video,comp.os.os2.setup.storage
>
> Hardware considerations:
>
> IBM HAS DEVELOPED OS/2 DEVICE DRIVER PAK ONLINE, THIS WEB SITE HAVE
> THOUNSANDS OF DRIVERS.
> http://service.software.ibm.com/os2ddpak/index.htm
>
> -=-> Last choice, replace the UNSUPPORTED COMPONENT for a supported
> ONE.  This will depend on your motivation to use OS/2 Warp v4 <-=-=-
>
> OS/2 WARP - SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS
> Minimum Hardware Configuration. The hardware requirements for OS/2
> Warp 4 vary depending on the
> options installed and the applications you wish to run on the
> machine. Here are the minimum requirements for
> a typical computer environment: 486 or better CPU, 32MB RAM (or more),
> ATAPI CD ROM, 100-300 MB HD.
> OS/2 supported sound card for audio and multimedia applications
>
> TIP:
> If after installing an application you notice problems, edit OS2.INI
> file and remove references to the
> application.
>
> KEY LINKS: --=> These are the best places for  OS/2 information: <=--
>
> Information for OS/2 new users or potential ones:
> A must for anyone that want to know the TRUTH about OS/2!
> http://www.os2ss.com/Information/NewUsers/
> http://www.honeycomb.net/os/oses/os2.htm
>
> EZINES:
> http://www.os2ezine.com
> http://www.os2ss.com
> http://www.edm2.com/
> http://os2about.com
>
> OS/2 FILES
> http://hobbes.nmsu.edu
> http://www.os2bbs.com
> http://service.boulder.ibm.com/asd-bin/doc/en_us/catalog.htm
> http://www.leo.org/archiv/software/os2/
> ftp://merlin.itep.ru   [lss;os2warez]
>
> OS/2 NEWS
> http://www.os2ss.com/news
> http://www.warpcast.com
>
> VENDORS:
> http://www.indelible-blue.com/scott/ibnews.nsf
> http://www.bmtmicro.com
>
> JAVA IDES THAT SUPPORT OS/2
> Visual Age For JAVA - less than $90
> http://www.software.ibm.com/ad/
>
> Netbeans - FREE
> http://www.netbeans.com
>
> Simplicity for JAVA
> http://www.datarepresentations.com/
>
> Netrexx - FREE
> http://www2.hursley.ibm.com/netrexx/
>
> IBM ALPHAWORKS Web Site -  FREE
> http://www.alphaWorks.ibm.com/formula
>
> More information about OS/2 and JAVA
> http://www.doofus.org/Java/
>
> Check The OS/2 alternative Web Site:
> http://www.tstonramp.com/~freiheit/os2apps.shtml
>
> WIN32 Support in OS/2:
> http://www.netlabs.org/odin/
>
> Linux/Unix and OS/2:
> http://www.netlabs.org/everblue/
>
> Check OS/2 organizations like:
> http://www.netlabs.org
> http://en.os2.org
>
> Virtual Pascal
> http://www.fprint.co.uk/products/virtual_pascal/
>
> OS/2 and Sound Cards
> http://www.tabi.org/timur/crystalos2.html
>
> PKZIP v2.50
> http://www.pkware.com
>
> Remember:  Buy those applications  *IF*  you decide to continue use
> them's after 6 months TEST DRIVE
>
> Other links:
> Watcom C++ Compiler v11.0a
> Nader Letter to IBM:
> http://www.zdnet.com/sr/breaking/980608/980608f.html
> WWW WYSIWYG editor
> http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/clerin/
> Large OS/2 Customer list
> http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~meile/los2cl.html
> XIMATI OS/2 Web Server - FREE
> http://www.imatix.com/html/xitami/index.htm
> V C++ GUI Development framework
> http://www.objectcentral.com/
> Warp 4  Engage
> http://www2.hu-berlin.de/~h0444vnd/os2.htm
> White Paper:  Advantages of OS/2 v4 over  WIN NT v4
> http://www.minzdat.ch/forum/tanos/pages/merlinnt2.htm
> Cable modems and OS/2 Warp v4
> http://members.home.net/bhubley/cableintro.html
> Blackdeath software
> http://sprk.com/blackdeath/
> Pillarsoft
> http://www.pillarsoft.net/
> DIGITAL Cameras and OS/2
> http://users.uniserve.ca/~software/dcitu/index.html
> Independent developer
> http://en.os2.org/projects/indos2/
> Config documentation

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: ispy@groovyshow.com                               29-Aug-99 10:15:04
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 16:52:17
Subj: (2/2) Re:  The case for OS/2 Warp, a Super-Charged OS        ~~~~~~~~~~

> http://www.online.de/home/os2/csdp/about.htm
> The OS/2 HISTORY
> http://www.hartnell.cc.ca.us/student/hacnc/altos/OS2History.html
> Visual PROLOG
> http://www.visual-prolog.com/vip/vipinfo/freeware_version.htm
> SETI
> http://www.os2ss.com/seti
>
> Like Arcade GAMES?, try M.A.M.E.
>
> http://hobbes.nmsu.edu/cgi-bin/h-search?key=mame&pushbutton=Search
> ROMS:
> http://www.ArcadeAtHome.com/
>
> Last but not least,we are seeking developers to join OS/2.  Tools
> available includes JAVA, C++ (GNU, Visual
> Age for C++ v4),  Pascal, Rexx, Netrexx. There are others.
>
> THE OS/2 WARP DEVELOPERS TOOLKIT IS AVAILABLE AT ONE OF THE TWO URL'S
> PROVIDED HERE. JOIN OS/2 NOW!
>
> Join one of many projects at http://www.netlabs.org
>
> Maybe, it will be WISE to buy OS/2 V4 rather than try to download it
> since it is a 250MB file.  LOTUS SS v1.1
> could be downloaded with EMTEC FTP and resuming file download will be
> required since many users are
> connecting to those URL's. YES This message is working!...
>
> Note:
> OS/2 v4 is available from Indelible Blue..
>
> NOTE:
> If you don't want to bother downloading The OS/2 Warp 250MB file or
> LOTUS SMART SUITE V1.1 (1999)
> Edition , Goto INDELIBLE BLUE:
>
>    * LOTUS SMART SUITE ACADEMIC VERSION IS ONLY $83  (AN648NA)
> http://www.indelible-blue.com/ibapps/products.nsf/by+partnumber/AN645N
> A
>
>    * OS/2 V4 ACADEMIC VERSION IS ONLY $85 (84H7459)
> http://www.indelible-blue.com/ibapps/products.nsf/by+partnumber/84H745
> 9)
>
> What it takes?  The  GUTS to install OS/2 Are you so GOOD?
>
> TIP:
> USE ALT-F1 WHEN BOOTING FAILS.  IT IS NOT COMMON BUT THIS IS A GREAT
> TRICK!
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> IMPORTANT NOTE:
> If you find this info interesting or useful, save to a file NOW!.  You
> don't know when you may need it!.  Also,
> you could make copies (or forward through email) for your friends.
> This guide will not be posted
> anymore to usenet.  Maybe someone could post it from time to time...
>
> WHAT YOU CAN DO?:
>    * Forward this message to your friends. You could forward through
> an
>      anonymous remailer.  More about remailers later..
>    * Forward (through anonymous remailers also) to PC Newspersons
>         o Techwire
>         o Infoworld
>         o PC World
>         o ZDNet
>         o Or other
>    * Post (anonymously, if you want) to OS-related Newsgroups
>    * Tell PC media you use, like and use OS/2
>    * Ask the press for better coverage of OS/2 (ZDNet, Infoworld,
>      Techweb)
>    * If you are an OS expert and have capabilities and bandwidth
>      resources to put online an FTP server,(someone in Europe?
>      or latin america?) with key apps, utils, etc..
>
> Must Have utilities (THE BASICS):
>
> A)    INFOZIP UNZIP (EQUIVALENT TO PKUNZIP.EXE)
> ftp://hobbes.nmsu.edu/pub/os2/archiver/unz540x2.exe
> Installation:
> 1)make dir \UNZIP in c: d: or whatever OS/2 partition
> 2)copy and extract unz540x2.exe into \unzip
> 3)edit config.sys and add \unzip to the path
> 4)remember to end \unzip reference in the path with ;
>
> B)    FILE_MANAGER
> ftp://ftp.bmtmicro.com/bmtmicro/fm2_301.zip
> Installation:
> 1)make dir \FM2 (or whatever) in c: d: or whatever OS/2 partition
> 2)copy and extract fm2_301.zip \FM2 (or whatever)
> 3)run install.cmd
>
> C)    CONFIG.SYS  ANALYZER OPTIMIZER
> ftp://hobbes.nmsu.edu/pub/os2/util/config/cfgmt100.zip
> Installation
> 1) Make dir \cfgmt (or whatever)
> 2) Copy cfgmt100.zip and extract with unzip.exe
> 3) run install.cmd
>
> D)    EMX (optional, required for some utilities and GNU)
> ftp://hobbes.nmsu.edu/pub/os2/dev/emx/v0.9d/emxrt.zip
>
> Installation
> 1) copy emxrt.zip to c:\ (root)
> 2) unzip with unzip.exe (it should create a sub-dir \emx, test first
> in
> other dir if you want)
> 3) Add \emx\bin to config.sys path, add emx\dll to config.sys library
> path
>
> E)    Sysbench 0.9.e
> ftp://hobbes.nmsu.edu/pub/os2/util/benchmark/sysb094e.zip
>
> F)    Memsize - System Resources Monitor
> http://www.msen.com/~rpapo
>
> G)    Process Commander (after basic Install, upgrade with pcfix1.zip)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> PC Newsreporters, what we can do with them?.  Ok, we can suggest to
> forward (anonymously) this message to the news person of your choice.
> This will tell them how to 'tweak' OS/2 for greater performance.  Linux
> user's like to tweak their systems (and press people respect that) we
> have the right to make the same to our
> OS.
>
> You can choose anyone and send this message to make them aware that
> OS/2 can be Super-Charged.  Maybe, one of them could have the guts (or
> courage) to make it and run some benchmarks against Win 98, Win 2000,
> and Win NT 4.  It should be interesting to see results with  a
> Super-Charged OS/2 setup (FP11, DANIS506, and HPFS386) against Win 98,
> Win 2000, and Win NT 4.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> Newspersons and email contact info...
> You may also send a copy of this guide to your prefered newsperson to
> make he(she) aware of the OS/2
> "Tweak" and Tricks included here.  You may want to send via
> anonymous... see below...
>
>  Name                   email address
> Publication/WebSite
>  Infoworld              electric@infoworld.com        InfoWorld
>  Mary Joe Foley         mfoley@zd.com                 Sm@rtReseller
>  Tom Yager              tyager@maxx.net               InfoWorld
>  Charles Cooper         charles_cooper@zd.com         ZDNET News
>  Editor                 pcmag@zd.com                  PC Magazine
>  John Clyman            john_clyman@zd.com            PC Magazine
>  Michael Fitzgerald     michael_fitzgerald@zd.com     ZDNET
>  Maria Seminerio        maria_seminerio@zd.com        ZDNET
>  Sean Silverthorne      sean_silverthorne@zd.com      ZDNET
>  ZDNet Benchmarks zdbopwebmaster@zd.com ZD Benchmarks
>  Scott Berlinato        scott_berinato@zd.com         PC Week
>  Claudia Graziano       claudia_graziano@zd.com       PC Week
>  John Madden            john_madden@zd.com            PC Week
>  James Miller           james_miller@zd.com           PC Magazine
>  Alan Zeichick          zeichick@camdenassociates.com TechWeb/CMP
>  David Lidski           dlidsky@zd.com               PC Magazine
>  Sharon Terdeman sharon_terdeman@zd.com        PC Magazine
>  Wayne Rash     wrash@mindspring.com          TechWeb/CMP
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> How to send anonymous email and/or post anonimously to usenet:
> http://www.skuz.net/potatoware/reli/UserMan.htm
> http://www.replay.com/remailer/
> http://mail2news.cjb.net/
> ttp://www.mute.dircon.co.uk/remailers.html
> http://www.metcorp.com/sean/remail.html
> http://www.skuz.net/potatoware/reli/UserMan.htm
> NEWSGROUP: alt.privacy.anon-server
> thread--=> List of Reliable Remailers --=> Updated daily!
>
> NOTE: SOME REMAILERS ARE UP/AND DOWN EASILY. Test First!, and test
> with
> dummy messages to some dummy newsgroup.
>
> ::
> request-remailing-to: remailer@replay.com
>
> ::
> request-remailing-to: remailer@xxxxx.com
>
> ::
> Anon-post-to:newsgroup
> or
> Anon-to: john_doe@columbia.net
>
> ##
> subject:whatever
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> Remailers reliability and info...
> alt.privacy.anon-server
>
> Attention if you receive this doc, please forward to a fellow worker
> who might be interested in this info...
>
> INTERESTING TIP:
> You can forward this message from usenet to your own email account
> (Pronews forward, right side) and 'Edit Message as New' with
> Communicator 4.61 and repost to usenet if you want or forward to a
> friend or to a newsperson.
>
> Chiao!
>
> Extra:
> modify config.sys
> SET MENUSFOLLOWPOINTER=YES
>
> and you will have a more functional mouse pointer..ala Win 95!
>


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From: nobody@neuropa.net                                29-Aug-99 16:22:02
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 16:52:17
Subj: HPFS386, The Reality...

From: Anonymous <nobody@neuropa.net>

Installing HPFS386 into a Warp v4 client makes your system FASTER!.  If
you think, this hurts IBM, think again.  The reason IBM does'nt include
HPFS386 into Warp v4 is because MS charges HUGE royalties for EACH copy
of HPFS386!.  Therefore, IBM only includes it with Warp Server.

NOTE: HPFS386 makes sense for a stand-alone OS/2 system!, that's because
Partition
Magic is not compatible with it....

Check: alt.binaries.warez.os2

IF YOU ARE AN EXISTING OS/2 WARP USER, YOU MAY IMPROVE SYSTEM FILE I/O
BY 5X TO 10X FACTOR.

NOTE:
Now, that IBM seems to be abandoning OS/2, we must play a guerilla war
strategy to fight Windows and MS.
We all KNOW that OS/2 is superior to the Windows counterpart.  We will
fight with all our resources.


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From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net                            29-Aug-99 16:25:08
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 16:52:17
Subj: Re: dont blame Gates for IBM not licensing Win32

From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens)

On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 21:20:24, Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> wrote:

> JM wrote:
> > 
> > Kelly Robinson <ispy@groovyshow.com> wrote:
> > : IBM made Open32, which is a half-assed attempt at Win32 emulation which
> > : failed.
> > 
> > Wrong David, it's a half-assed attempt of supporting the Win32 API on
> > OS/2.  It's currently being used as the basis of the Odin-API project.
>          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> On what basis do you make this claim?
> 
> - Marty

I thought I read that on Timur's page (back in the days of 
Win32-OS/2). They started out with the Open32 API's and added what had
been left out. Do I remember wrong?

Karel Jansens
jansens_at_ibm_dot_net
=======================================================
If we could have our cake _and_ eat it,
people would start whining about seconds.
=======================================================

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From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net                            29-Aug-99 16:25:10
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 16:52:17
Subj: (1/2) Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens)

On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 21:10:22, "Brad Wardell" 
<bwardell@mw.mediaone.net> wrote:

> jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens) wrote in message ...
> >On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 16:27:30, "Brad Wardell"
> ><bwardell@mw.mediaone.net> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> <jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens)> wrote in message
> >> news:L9BY9tzSDwrQ-pn2-UdvLdeGXdzIo@localhost...
> >> > On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 04:11:29, "Brad Wardell"
> >> > <bwardell@mw.mediaone.net> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > You are confusing rights with verdicts.  Dave Tholen has the right to
> be
> >> a
> >> > > jerk.  But he is still a jerk.  No one is disputing his right to be a
> >> jerk.
> >> > >
> >> > Whoa! What's this about "verdicts"? Nobody, and I mean _nobody_, in
> >> > this NG has been appointed judge. People can have all the opinions
> >> > they want, and everybody is free to vent them as much as they want to,
> >> > but there is absolutely no way any opinion, no matter how many
> >> > "supporters" it has, gets the status of law or verdict.
> >> >
> >>
> >> The term "verdict" exists outside of court, Bennie.  Do you prefer the
> word
> >> "Consensus"?  It's just semantics.
> >>
> >No, it's not. "Verdict" implies a court and a judge. But I guess it
> >does show how you like to see yourself.
> 
> Maybe it's because you're in Europe and verdict has a different meaning.
> People here use the word "verdict" all the time.  Software reviews, casual
> discussion, etc.  I'll assume it's just a cultural difference no point
> arguing it.
> 
OK. Your explanation accepted and apologies for ranting for wrong 
reasons.
> >>
> >> > > > What you have described is a democracy: which can be summed up as
> >> three
> >> > > > wolves and one sheep voting about what's for lunch.
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > > If a dozen people in a room think Bob's a jerk and only 2 think he's
> not
> >> a
> >> > > jerk the odds are Bob is a jerk.
> >> >
> >> > No, the only thing that proves is that 12 people think Bob is a jerk.
> >> > Thoughts do not equal reality, opinions do not equal a person. And
> >> > _that_ was the real meaning of Bennie's analogies.
> >>
> >> I don't even know how to respond to this, it's...so naive it's amazing.
> Are
> >> you a college student?
> >>
> 
> note no response.
> 
Not that it really matters, but I own a small real-estate company. 
It's a family business. We buy, sell and let property. If it's really 
important, I could publish the results of the last three years (I'd 
have to ask my accountant first, of course, but I'm sure he'll agree. 
He likes to lurk in this group. Hi, Jos!).

Happy now?

Oh yeah, and I own a small bar in Brussels. But that's more of a 
hobby.

> >> Let me use a real world example:
> >>
> >> I move into a new neighborhood of people that has 12 houses on the block.
> >> At the yearly neighborhood association I talk to my neighbors and they
> keep
> >> mentioning how one neighbor, Bob, is just a complete jerk.  Over and over
> at
> >> this meeting I keep hearing this.
> >>
> >> When I leave the meeting, I am probably going to conclude that Bob is
> >> probably a jerk.  I'm going to try to withold final judgement until I
> meet
> >> Bob but odds are, Bob is a jerk and at the very least, there is something
> >> about Bob that seems to anger his neighbors that he should really look at
> >> changing if he wants to get along with people.
> >>
> >> Now, this has real live implications.  So I go home and Bob comes over to
> my
> >> house and wants to borrow my lawn mower.  Well, normally I wouldn't think
> >> twice of lending a neighbor my lawnmower but after hearing all this
> >> negativity on Bob, I decide not to until I learn more about Bob.
> >>
> >> Now how this analogy relates to Tholen.
> >>
> >> A new user comes to this news group and they keep hearing how people
> think
> >> Dave Tholen is a complete jerk or kook.  A good chunk of the topics
> either
> >> have his name in them in a derisive way or are about him and are just
> >> flaming him.  A new user is going to conclude that odds are, Dave's a
> real
> >> jerk or at the very least, there's something about Dave that annoys a lot
> of
> >> people that Dave should really look at if he wants to get along with
> people.
> >>
> >> But in this case, there's more, people are also providing examples of
> Dave's
> >> behavior which include illogical arguments, massive hypocricy,
> intentionally
> >> being antagnostic by going into other discussions not about him and
> >> antagonizing people.  And unlike the neighborhood example, there's even a
> >> database called DejaNews where people can see Dave's own words.
> >>
> >Brad, the only thing you've proven here is that you are apparently
> >extremely prone to prejudice, and very easily influenced by others.
> >The scary part is that you actually seem to think that that is a
> >_good_ thing.
> >
> 
> Well, you live in your nice perfect universe and I'll live on Earth okay?
> 
> I'd love to know what you actually do for a living.  It obviously must not
> involve very much decision making since you seem to think that listening to
> others is a bad thing.    People have to make decisions for themselves but a
> wise person will listen to the consensus of the majority and factor that
> into their decision.  They shouldn't let the majority be the sole
> determination but it should be something they factor in.
> 
This is funny, but I've always been told that a wise person will 
listen to everybody and then make up his own mind. But of course, out 
here in Happy-Happy-Land, things are different.
> 
> >For the very last time: I don't really care how you feel or think
> >about Dave Tholen; given what you have just told me, it's extremely
> >unlikely that your opinion will ever influence mine. I don't even care
> >much about your argument with him: it's nigh three years old and
> >completely outdated anyway.
> >
> 
> But you obviously care since you keep harping on how people can't make a
> determination on whether he's a kook or not.
> 
Please, let's not mud the waters too much. If someone tells me he 
thinks Bob's a jerk for such and such reasons, and I feel his process 
of reasoning is flawed, can I not point that out? The opinion itself I
don't care about, but the decision making process can be evaluated, 
no?

> I don't care if you like Tholen or not, it makes no difference to me.
> People keep telling you that in fact and you keep acting as if people are
> demanding you take a side.  NOBODY CARES WHETHER YOU TAKE A SIDE OR NOT.
> But if you're going to question our motivations we're going to provide our
> side of the argument.
> 
Come to think of it, you might be right here. It seems I've been 
getting a bit (very little of course, hardly noticeable) paranoid 
about this whole thing. Let's see if we can agree on this: everybody 
has a right to their own opinion, but if they choose to "publicise" 
their motivations for said opinion, those reasonings are up for grabs.
That should be good for some nice fights, hm?

> >Just one more thing: you _do_ realise that to all the participants and
> >lurkers in this group you are representing Stardock Systems, don't
> >you? I mean, I can make a complete arse of myself and Dave Tholen can
> >be as obnoxious as he wants to be, neither of us are going to lose
> >even a cent in that. But if you should start painting yourself as a
> >prejudiced bigot, don't you think that would reflect in your business?
> >Oh, I know, everybody posting here is completely gaga anyway, but
> >you'll never know how many people read this every day and never post
> >to this group. They're the smart ones, Brad. The ones that buy
> >software.
> >
> 
> If your opinion actually carried weight it might matter.  Sure, some OS/2
> user might think what I say somehow represents Stardock.   But in the bigger
> software world, I'm just some guy who's day job is workin at a softare
> company.  Why, is everything you say here representing your employer?  Is
> Brad Barclay representing IBM?  Is Dave Tholen representing the University
> of Hawaii?
> 
Actually, I do consider Brad Barclay's words in light of his 
employment with IBM. And I always put the link between you and 
Stardock. And whenever Dave writes something related to astronomy, it 
could reflect on his alma mater.

As for my employer, I'll let him speak for himself: "Karel Jansens is 
a complete idiot who spends way too much time on UseNet when he should
be out there prospecting houses. His opinions are of course not my 
own. (signed: Karel Jansens)".

> I wasn't aware that I was paid on a commission.  Gee, I thought I was
> salaried like you probably are.  If people are going to make buying
> decisions based on the personality of an employee of the company then well,
> that person should probably reevaluate their purchase making process.  I
> tend to buy things based on the value of the product or service not based on
> whether some guy on the Internet agrees with the buyer's views or not.
> 
> So now I'm a "prejudiced bigot" simply because I take into account what
> people believe when forming an opinion?  Wow, I choose not to buy a video
> game because everyone's posting it sucks and now I'm a "biggot".
> 
Read again, Brad. I wrote "if" and "should", not "you bloody well 
are". I personally think you might be on a slippery road, but I will 
not call you a bigot. The prejudice part, well, you practically said 
that yourself.
> 
> >Even Windows software. (OK, so those are the not so smart ones)
> 
> 
> Speaking of prejudiced bigots...
> 
If you can be prejudiced, so can I.
> 
> >> >
> 
> >> > > You won't get very far in life if you don't make judgement calls
> purely
> >> > > because exceptions to a given rule exist.
> >> > >
> >> > Neither if you make all your judgment calls based on the opinions of
> >> > others.
> >>
> >> I think Icould argue I've already "made it far" and I do make judgement
> >> calls based on other opinions every day.  I have to, I don't have time to
> >> micro manage every little thing that goes on where I work.  I have people
> >> who provide opinions on things that I then have to make a decision based
> on
> >> their opinons.
> >>
> >Yes, I now know what kind of person you are.
> 
> 
> Oh yea, "a prejudiced bigot" because I don't personally go and decide for
> myself every petty detail in life before making a judgement call.
> 
> I suppose if you were in a restraunt and everyone was vomitting because of
> food poisoning and they served you your food you would go ahead and eat it
> yourself without a second thought since you would want to make that
> determination personally?  Only after you were barfing your brains out would
> you make a judgement call right?
> 
You still seem to have problems with the difference between facts and 
opinions.
> 
> 
> >> >
> >> > OK, let me rephrase that: you probably _will_ get very far, but you
> >> > won't be the kind of person I'd like to be in the same room for more
> >> > than five minutes with.
> >> >
> >>
> >> I think I can live with that.  You wouldn't have time to spend 5 minutes
> >> with people, you'll be too busy running around verifying every
> >> inconsequential to important "Fact" for yourself.
> >>
> >Indeed.
> 
> 
> So Karel, why don't you tell us exactly what you do for a living then?  You
> seem to be a "true free spirit" living amongst us fascist ignorant sheep.
> 
Far out, dude.
> >
> >> I wonder how many seconds you'd last in the military.  Leaders have to
> take
> >> the opinions of their subordinates or the morale of their troops into
> >> consideration when making a judgement call all the time.
> >>
> >They didn't like me in the army. I had the unnerving habit of asking
> >"why?" at too many wrong moments. I still see my old sergeant from
> >time to time (it's been fifteen years now), and she once admitted that
> >I was the reason she quit the service (the why's seemed to stick, she
> >said). She's now quite successfully running a small supermarket.
> >
> 
> I see.  So, do you think that you are representative of the general
> population then?
> 
I sincerely hope not. I don't think I could stand it if everybody was 
like me. I do have problems linking your question to my explanation, 
though.
> 
> >> Or I wonder how long you'd last in an executive position at a company
> >> without relying on the opinions of others.
> >>
> >Of course I rely on other people's opinions. It's the opinion of the
> >people I don't trust anybody with.
> >
> 
> So you've never had a position of any real responsibility?  You've never
> hired anyone of course then.
> 
That's a tough one. I hired the staff in my bar. Sofar they're doing 
okay. I hire contractors when needed for renovations (small stuff I 
can handle myself), but that's usually on a per-job basis. Sofar we 
only had to sue once (it's still going, but it looks as if we're 
winning).

As for responsibility: it's my company, so if we go bust, it's my ass 
too. Is that responsible enough?

> >> > > Over on comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic people are saying that
> Tiberium
> >> Sun
> >> > > (C&C 2) is a disappointment and describe why.  A couple of people are
> >> saying
> >> > > it's great but it's like a 10 to 1 ratio or so.  I do not need to go
> and
> >> buy
> >> > > it to conclude that if I did buy it, I would probably be disappointed
> >> with
> >> > > it.  There exist in history exceptions -- that is, games that most
> >> people
> >> > > have loathed that I have liked but they are just that -- exceptions.
> >> > >
> >> > You're still arguing with statistics, Brad. I'll burn in hell before I
> >> > let my judgment of a person depend on bloody statistics.
> >>
> >> So in other words, you'd go buy it for yourself to find out it sucks and
> >> return it.
> >>
> >Sheesh, Brad. That's life.
> >If you buy a game everybody says it's great and it sucks marrow for
> >you, what're you gonna do?
> >
> 
> I've never argued that the majority is always right.  The probability is
> that if everyone likes a movie or a game or a TV show that I'll probably
> like it too.  That doesn't mean I will though.
> 
> You, on the other hand, would dismiss whether everyone hated a movie and go
> see it anyway no matter what simply because you proudly give no weight to
> the value judgements of other people.
> 

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From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net                            29-Aug-99 16:25:10
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 16:52:17
Subj: (2/2) Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

You're dead right on the movie thing. I make it my point to go see the
most despised movies (not all of them, of course, but at least three 
or four per year). It sure teached me not to listen to other people 
about movies.
> 
> >> There's an old saying "Parents need to correct their children or society
> >> will do it for them."
> >>
> >> No one is suggesting that you or Bennie should scorn or be a Tholen
> >> detractor.  At the same time, you cannot say that those of us who think
> >> Tholen is a kook are in the wrong.  Society has expectations for human
> >> behavior and when people defy those expectations they pay for it -- as
> >> Tholen is.  He will always be the object of ridicule on the internet
> until
> >> he alters his behavior to fall withint societal norms.  I realize in this
> >> age of "individuality" that must seem awful but without societal norms,
> it
> >> is difficult to have a civilized discussion.
> >>
> >Allright, when have I ever said you were not entitled to your opinion?
> >
> >I won't even answer to the rest of that paragraph. Anybody who thinks
> >that mob justice is an example of "societal norms" is way beyond me
> >anyway.
> >
> 
> "mob justice"?  Who has suggested such a thing?  Your problem seems to be
> that your bias's as so ingrained in you that you don't even realize them as
> bias's.
> 
> Our basic disagreement can be summed up succinctly (despite this massively
> long discussion)
> 
> People on multiple newsgroups think Tholen's a jerk and a kook and worse.
> In fact, ratio-wise, of the people who post to Tholen the number of
> detractors to supporters is very much in favor of the detractors.
> 
> I think a reasonable human being can conclude that the problem lies with
> Tholen -- not the detractors.
> 
> You seem to disagree.  That's your right.  However, my opinion does not make
> me a "prejudiced bigot" (as opposed to a non-prejudiced bigot??).
> 
This is the end of the post, so I'll repeat it for the skimmers: I 
didn't call you a bigot, it was very hypothetical. Prejudiced is 
something else, as you admitted yourself that you will evaluate 
someone based on the opinions of others (if that's not prejudiced, I 
don't know what is). But hey! you're entitled to be prejudiced. I 
don't mind.

Karel Jansens
jansens_at_ibm_dot_net
=======================================================
If we could have our cake _and_ eat it,
people would start whining about seconds.
=======================================================

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From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net                            29-Aug-99 16:25:12
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 16:52:17
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [rhetorical]

From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens)

On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 22:26:09, tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu wrote:

> Karel Jansens writes:
> 
> >> Trackballs tend to get slippery with skins oils.  I've grown quite
> >> accustomed to the TrackPoint used on ThinkPads.  Took a little getting
> >> accustomed to it, but I like it better than the touch pads.
> 
> > I deeply hate touchpads. The little eraserpoints are better, but I 
> > still lack tactile feedback: I like to go somewhere when I move the 
> > pointer on the screen, if you know what I mean.
> 
> No, I don't.  The mouse buttons still have tactile feedback.  The
> device that moves the pointer doesn't, on touchpads, track points,
> track balls, and mice.
> 
Oh. Well... it's just that the little eraser doesn't go anywhere when 
you push it.

> > I've been seriously contemplating forking out for a touch-screen 
> > monitor and sink that into my worktop, so that it would only protrude 
> > a couple of centimeters. Or maybe buy one of those lightpens; I worked
> > with one that had drivers for Warp and it had a pretty good 
> > resolution, good enough for serious graphics work (I tried tablets, 
> > but I loose hand-eye coordination very quickly).
> 
> I've seen touch screens in retail locations (the Muse at Tower Records,
> for example).  I find them to not work more often than they do work.
> And I dislike finger smears on monitor screens.
> 
I've had some pleasant experiences, but I agree on the finger smudges.
I'd probably use a pen.

> >>>> I also still use the Microsoft FORTRAN compiler when I need to create a
> >>>> 16-bit executable for somebody running DOS.  It has some bugs that were
> >>>> reported, acknowledged as reproducible by the developers, but never
fixed,
> >>>> even after four years.  Microsoft has since discontinued development of
> >>>> their FORTRAN compiler, referring customers to Digital (now Compaq)
> >>>> instead.
> 
> >>> Sorry, I try not to program, especially not in FORTRAN.
> 
> >> Still a good choice for number-crunching applications.  You really
> >> should look into the latest standard, namely Fortran 95, if your
> >> objections are due to lack of certain features; it may now have them
> >> (except no RECORD statement; derived types are handled with a TYPE
> >> statement, something that Fred Emmerich still hasn't learned).
> 
> > Dave, you don't get it: it's not the features, it's the talent. I've 
> > found out that I'm as good at programming as Bill Clinton is at 
> > celibacy.
> 
> So your remark wasn't specific to FORTRAN, despite the reference to it
> especially.
> 
No, I can safely say that I'm equally untalented in just about any 
programming language. I'm the sort of guy that can mess up a 
Logo-program.

> >>>>> The rough I don't mind, it's the stupid that gets on my nerves.
> 
> >>>> And you're seeing plenty of it from the so-called "detractors".
> 
> >>> I'm not taking sides (Hah! as if that's going to be believed!), but 
> >>> here's a shortlist:
> >>>
> >>> 1. Your opinions are only valid if they coincide with everyone else's.
> 
> >> Yes, they do seem to take that position rather frequently.
> 
> >>> 2. Fights from another geological era need to be continuously raked 
> >>> up.
> 
> >> Which "another geological era" are you referring to?
> 
> > Let's just say "a long time ago" then.
> 
> In a galaxy far away?
> 
Heh. Don't we all wish.

> >>> 3. Your opinions are only valid if they coincide with everyone else's.
> 
> >> Yes, they do seem to take that position rather frequently.
> 
> >>> 4. If you put out an analogy, _your own_ interpretation of it will not
> >>> be accepted.
> 
> >> Sometimes the apologies are obviously not very sincere, considering
> >> how they turn around and do the same thing over again.
> 
> >>> 5. Your opinions are only valid if they coincide with everyone else's.
> 
> >> Yes, they do seem to take that position rather frequently.
> 

Karel Jansens
jansens_at_ibm_dot_net
=======================================================
If we could have our cake _and_ eat it,
people would start whining about seconds.
=======================================================

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From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net                            29-Aug-99 16:25:13
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 16:52:17
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [rhetorical]

From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens)

On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 23:33:12, rerbert@wxs.nl (Gerben Bergman) wrote:

> Deep within his glass house, jansens_at_ibm_dot_net threw the following
> stones:
> 
> | > Don't get too smart with me now. As far as I'm concerned Belgium has no
> | > reason to even *exist*; all parties involved would be better off if the
> | > Dutch-speaking regions were to join Holland, and the French-speaking
regions
> | > were to join France. (We're putting up with those pesky Frisians
already, so
> | > adding a few Belgians wouldn't be that much of a burden.)
> | 
> | First of all, I'm Flemish, not Belgian.
> 
> There you have it; what's the purpose of a country if it consists of two
> markedly distinct nationalities -- Flemish and Walloon -- which for the most
> part won't even talk to each other? My plan of dividing Belgium between
> Holland and France makes a lot more sense. (If only because I'd much prefer
> Luc Nilis over Patrick Kluivert in our national football team.)
> 
I hate to burst your bubble, but the "Flanders must naturally join the
Netherlands" is about as old as the 1830 separation. Mind you, the 
supporters of it got some really bad press after WW II.

Besides, I'm a regionalist; the smaller the better.

> | And we don't need no stinkin' Dutch buzy-bodies to come tell us when to
> | breathe.
> 
> Well, you could certainly use some of our common sense when it comes to the
> maintenance of roads. When I rode my bike from Maastricht to Brussels back
> in 1992, I was simply dumbfounded to see all these huge gaping holes in both
> the N79's and N3's surface. And what's up with the attitude of the average
> Belgian car driver? Flying past me at a speed of over 140km/h, with only
> 20cm of free space to separate us...
> 
They're fixed now. Pity, because they were specially designed to keep 
Dutch cyclists out of the country. And I'm sure you exaggerate: it 
couldn't have been more than 130 with a distance of at least 30 cm: 
we're careful in Belgium.

> | (Actually, I quite like Holland. Too many regulations and speed-cameras
for
> | my taste, bot other than that: it's nicely flat.)
> 
> Yeah, ideal for bike riding. :)
> 
> Hey, to prevent this discussion from going off-topic any further: did you
> know there's a town here which is called "Tholen"? And that Tholen is a
> Dutch surname? That's about the only aspect of my country I'm *not* proud
> of...
> 
> | > [Oh no, not *another* "Tholen emulator" thread! Perhaps we should bail
while
> | > we still enjoy the faintest flicker of credibility with the rest of the
> | > c.o.o.a-reading population...]
> | 
> | I'm not good at it anyway.
> 
> So I noticed; I kicked your ass so hard you wouldn't believe. :)
> 
Note: remark not dignified with an answer...

> | I hope you weren't serious about the beer, though?
> 
> Actually, I was. Alcohol is probably the most dangerous drug there is, if
> only because it's widely accepted as being okay (even socially desirable) to
> use. I can't even begin to list the misery that's caused on a world-wide
> basis.
> 
Well, yes. But beer's different, dude. We're talking bottled optimism 
here. Besides, it's good for you (not if you're used to that Dutch 
horse's urine they call beer over there). Besides, I don't think I 
know of any harmless drug, with the possible exception of cannabis. 
You can even die of a water overdose. The trick is to stop before the 
hurt (problem with beer is of course that the hurt comes the next 
morning...).

Karel Jansens
jansens_at_ibm_dot_net
=======================================================
If we could have our cake _and_ eat it,
people would start whining about seconds.
=======================================================

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From: esther@bitranch.com                               29-Aug-99 16:44:17
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 16:52:17
Subj: Re: vmware mistake

From: esther@bitranch.com (Esther Schindler)

On Sun, 29 Aug 1999 07:22:49, JM <malstrom@emily.oit.umass.edu> wrote:

| No, he went out of his way to say that he was wrong about OS/2 being 
| supported.  What he got wrong with his correction is OS/2 is the only 
| other OS that is likely to be added to the supported list while all other 
| operating systems won't be added.  He stated that OS/2 was the last on 
| the list to supported, which is back ass backwards.  He has a history of 
| getting the facts wrong.

He's not the only one. <chuckle> When one is confused about a topic, 
it's easy to *stay* confused about a topic. You should see me trying 
to figure out what I misunderstand about network hardware; I go 
through several iterations of saying (to myself) "wrong, you idiot!" 
before the light bulb turns on.

Accept the apology in the spirit in which it's taken. Correct the 
errors, gently and with kindness. Rather than being rude, assume that 
someone is well-meaning but misinformed.

Being relentlessly upbeat can only make you look good. If the other 
person is a malice-riddled twit, then _you_ come across as a 
benevolent, understanding person who is, nonetheless, nobody's fool, 
and your personal credibility is enhanced. If your opponent is well 
meaning but misinformed, then you simply have a conversation in which 
both people have the opportunity to become wiser.

--Esther

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From: malstrom@emily.oit.umass.edu                      29-Aug-99 13:43:04
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 16:52:17
Subj: Re: dont blame Gates for IBM not licensing Win32

From: JM <malstrom@emily.oit.umass.edu>

Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> wrote:
: JM wrote:
:> 
:> Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> wrote:
:> : JM wrote:
:> :>
:> :> Kelly Robinson <ispy@groovyshow.com> wrote:
:> :> : IBM made Open32, which is a half-assed attempt at Win32 emulation
which
:> :> : failed.
:> :>
:> :> Wrong David, it's a half-assed attempt of supporting the Win32 API on
:> :> OS/2.  It's currently being used as the basis of the Odin-API project.
:> :          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
:> 
:> : On what basis do you make this claim?
:> 
:> On the basis of this webpage:
:> 
:> http://www.netlabs.org/odin/ProjectDesign.html

: And now for some evidence you haven't seen.  This excerpt is from the
: Win32-OS/2 Windows API implementation project e-group:

<useful text deleted>

Thanks for posting that info.  Often times project webpages aren't able to 
keep as up to date as they would wish.

: Everything mentioned here involves moving away from Open32 and
: incorporating functionality into PE2LX, possibly from Wine.  I had a better
: example earlier of when the decision to do this was made, but I deleted it
: from my mailbox.  I think this illustrates the point.

Even though they are working to move away from Open32, it's still not 
that wrong of a statement that Open32 is the basis of the project.  A lot 
of Open32 is still in it, and that is where they started out at.

-Jason

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From: spamnot@mylittlepoopoo.net                        29-Aug-99 14:36:02
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 16:52:17
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: "Harry Thompson" <spamnot@mylittlepoopoo.net>

Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com> wrote in message
news:37C899FF.D4371FE0@WarpCity.com...
> I have just received the following from Dan Porter of
> Innoval Systems Solutions, Inc.:
>
> From: Dan Porter  6:21 PM (PST), August 28, 1999
> Subject: InnoVal and OS/2
> To: os2guy@warpcity.com
>
> Effective immediately, InnoVal Systems Solutions, Inc. is withdrawing
> the following products from marketing and support.
>
> Post Road Mailer for OS/2
> J Street Mailer for Java
> Web Willy Watch for OS/2
>
> Anyone may download free copies of these products from our online store

------------------snip----------------------------

Thanks, but no thanks.


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From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               29-Aug-99 14:51:00
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 16:52:17
Subj: Re: dont blame Gates for IBM not licensing Win32

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Karel Jansens wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 21:20:24, Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> wrote:
> 
> > JM wrote:
> > >
> > > Kelly Robinson <ispy@groovyshow.com> wrote:
> > > : IBM made Open32, which is a half-assed attempt at Win32 emulation
which
> > > : failed.
> > >
> > > Wrong David, it's a half-assed attempt of supporting the Win32 API on
> > > OS/2.  It's currently being used as the basis of the Odin-API project.
> >          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >
> > On what basis do you make this claim?
> >
> > - Marty
> 
> I thought I read that on Timur's page (back in the days of
> Win32-OS/2). They started out with the Open32 API's and added what had
> been left out. Do I remember wrong?

It started out that way, but it is no longer the case.  (See branch above).

- Marty

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From: bwardell@mw.mediaone.net                          29-Aug-99 19:15:23
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 19:53:18
Subj: (1/2) Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: "Brad Wardell" <bwardell@mw.mediaone.net>

<jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens)> wrote in message
news:L9BY9tzSDwrQ-pn2-dhsyibP6dsnS@localhost...
> On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 21:10:22, "Brad Wardell"
> <bwardell@mw.mediaone.net> wrote:

> > >> Let me use a real world example:
> > >>
> > >> I move into a new neighborhood of people that has 12 houses on the
block.
> > >> At the yearly neighborhood association I talk to my neighbors and
they
> > keep
> > >> mentioning how one neighbor, Bob, is just a complete jerk.  Over and
over
> > at
> > >> this meeting I keep hearing this.
> > >>
> > >> When I leave the meeting, I am probably going to conclude that Bob is
> > >> probably a jerk.  I'm going to try to withold final judgement until I
> > meet
> > >> Bob but odds are, Bob is a jerk and at the very least, there is
something
> > >> about Bob that seems to anger his neighbors that he should really
look at
> > >> changing if he wants to get along with people.
> > >>
> > >> Now, this has real live implications.  So I go home and Bob comes
over to
> > my
> > >> house and wants to borrow my lawn mower.  Well, normally I wouldn't
think
> > >> twice of lending a neighbor my lawnmower but after hearing all this
> > >> negativity on Bob, I decide not to until I learn more about Bob.
> > >>
> > >> Now how this analogy relates to Tholen.
> > >>
> > >> A new user comes to this news group and they keep hearing how people
> > think
> > >> Dave Tholen is a complete jerk or kook.  A good chunk of the topics
> > either
> > >> have his name in them in a derisive way or are about him and are just
> > >> flaming him.  A new user is going to conclude that odds are, Dave's a
> > real
> > >> jerk or at the very least, there's something about Dave that annoys a
lot
> > of
> > >> people that Dave should really look at if he wants to get along with
> > people.
> > >>
> > >> But in this case, there's more, people are also providing examples of
> > Dave's
> > >> behavior which include illogical arguments, massive hypocricy,
> > intentionally
> > >> being antagnostic by going into other discussions not about him and
> > >> antagonizing people.  And unlike the neighborhood example, there's
even a
> > >> database called DejaNews where people can see Dave's own words.
> > >>
> > >Brad, the only thing you've proven here is that you are apparently
> > >extremely prone to prejudice, and very easily influenced by others.
> > >The scary part is that you actually seem to think that that is a
> > >_good_ thing.
> > >
> >
> > Well, you live in your nice perfect universe and I'll live on Earth
okay?
> >
> This is funny, but I've always been told that a wise person will
> listen to everybody and then make up his own mind. But of course, out
> here in Happy-Happy-Land, things are different.

Gee, that's funny, which part of  "I'm going to try to withold final
judgement until I meet Bob " did you not understand?  Reread what I said,
it's all quoted above.  You called me a "prejudiced bigot" based soley on
the above analogy.  Let me repost it without all the >>>'s in it so that
others can see what I said that was so "bigoted".

--begin--
I move into a new neighborhood of people that has 12 houses on the block.
At the yearly neighborhood association I talk to my neighbors and they keep
mentioning how one neighbor, Bob, is just a complete jerk.  Over and over at
this meeting I keep hearing this. When I leave the meeting, I am probably
going to conclude that Bob is probably a jerk.  I'm going to try to withold
final judgement until I meet Bob but odds are, Bob is a jerk and at the very
least, there is something about Bob that seems to anger his neighbors that
he should really look at changing if he wants to get along with people.

Now, this has real live implications.  So I go home and Bob comes over to my
house and wants to borrow my lawn mower.  Well, normally I wouldn't think
twice of lending a neighbor my lawnmower but after hearing all this
negativity on Bob, I decide not to until I learn more about Bob.
--end--

Sure, I have become "predjuced" towards Bob based on the consensus of my
neighbors.  I have not decided he's a bad guy or anything of the like, but I
am merely changing my lending habits of assuming eveyrone's a nice guy to
one of neutrality until I learn more about Bob.  I believe most people would
do the same and it's not bigotry or ignorance, it's common sense.  There's
no "mob justice" (as you later claim) involved here, it's a basic RESPECT
for the views of one's neighbors.

I'm the one who is holding the position that one should take into account
what the opinion of the majority is and then reserve final judgement.

It was YOU that said that you give no weight to the opinions of others when
it comes to the opinions of others.


> >
> > >For the very last time: I don't really care how you feel or think
> > >about Dave Tholen; given what you have just told me, it's extremely
> > >unlikely that your opinion will ever influence mine. I don't even care
> > >much about your argument with him: it's nigh three years old and
> > >completely outdated anyway.
> > >
> >
> > But you obviously care since you keep harping on how people can't make a
> > determination on whether he's a kook or not.
> >
> Please, let's not mud the waters too much. If someone tells me he
> thinks Bob's a jerk for such and such reasons, and I feel his process
> of reasoning is flawed, can I not point that out? The opinion itself I
> don't care about, but the decision making process can be evaluated,
> no?
>

You can point it out as much as you like.  But it's a far cry from calling
me a "prejudice bigot".

You apparently don't agree that the consensus of the majority should have
any weight in one's judgement of others, that's fine.  I don't agree.

People are defined by contemporary society.  Charles Manson is a horrible
person.  I can say this as a fact because in my opinion, such a
super-majority of people feel this way that it is accepted as truth.  When a
viewpoint does not have a basis in scientific fact (such as opinions on
things ranging from people, music, or art) consensus is the only tool we
have for making a judgement.  Just because someone out there might think
that Charles Manson is a swell guy doesn't make me worry whether the
majority is wrong or not unless they have some pretty incredible evidence to
support their assertion.

Similarly, whether it's your viewpoint of Tholen or Bob or Charles Manson,
you are free to say that they are great guys.  I would fight for your right
to say that in fact even though I disagree with you.  But that doesn't make
the rest of us a mindless, bigoted  "mob" as you choose to paint people.


> > I don't care if you like Tholen or not, it makes no difference to me.
> > People keep telling you that in fact and you keep acting as if people
are
> > demanding you take a side.  NOBODY CARES WHETHER YOU TAKE A SIDE OR NOT.
> > But if you're going to question our motivations we're going to provide
our
> > side of the argument.
> >
> Come to think of it, you might be right here. It seems I've been
> getting a bit (very little of course, hardly noticeable) paranoid
> about this whole thing. Let's see if we can agree on this: everybody
> has a right to their own opinion, but if they choose to "publicise"
> their motivations for said opinion, those reasonings are up for grabs.
> That should be good for some nice fights, hm?
>

I believe you were the one who called me a "prejudiced bigot" and went as
far as to imply that my quote above would somehow damage the business of my
employer.

Whether it's Tholen or Tim Martin or whatever other person who we're talking
about, we can never "prove" that someone is technically a kook because it
isn't a defined scientific term.  But what you cannot do is deny that there
is a pretty solid consensus that Tholen is a kook.  People have presented
evidence for their viewpoint.

Here's a quick Dejanews search on Tholen AND kook and NOT in
comp.os.os2.advocacy

http://www.deja.com/dnquery.xp?DBS=2&VW=&QRY=Tholen+AND+kook+not+comp.os.os2
.advocacy&svcclass=dnserver

It brings up 1600 posts.   (as a reality check, substituting "Wardell" for
Tholen brings up 5 posts).

Here are a few samples:

http://x45.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=475323254&CONTEXT=935953550.1481965642&hitn
um=1
http://x45.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=486797896&CONTEXT=935953550.1481965642&hitn
um=2
http://x45.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=474806462&CONTEXT=935953550.1481965642&hitn
um=5
http://x45.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=489986218&CONTEXT=935953550.1481965642&hitn
um=6
http://x45.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=490012979&CONTEXT=935953550.1481965642&hitn
um=7
http://x45.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=476310438&CONTEXT=935953550.1481965642&hitn
um=10
http://x45.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=497266165&CONTEXT=935953550.1481965642&hitn
um=19

These are all people I've never heard of posting in news groups I don't
visit and this is just in the first 20 entries of the 1600.  These are
people who have encountered Tholen and judged him to be a kook.  When so
many different people with different backgrounds come together and form the
consensus that Dave Tholen is a kook, then is it really that unreasonable to
conclude that Tholen probably is a kook?  You may personally not agree with
that but that doesn't make the rest of us wrong.

Oh and btw, remember how Tholen kept calling me a liar for saying that he's
gotten more than "6 votes"

Here are the kook voting results:

http://polls.whatiz.com/poll.cgi?action=results&poll=300

Tholen got 955 votes.



> > >Just one more thing: you _do_ realise that to all the participants and
> > >lurkers in this group you are representing Stardock Systems, don't
> > >you? I mean, I can make a complete arse of myself and Dave Tholen can
> > >be as obnoxious as he wants to be, neither of us are going to lose
> > >even a cent in that. But if you should start painting yourself as a
> > >prejudiced bigot, don't you think that would reflect in your business?
> > >Oh, I know, everybody posting here is completely gaga anyway, but
> > >you'll never know how many people read this every day and never post
> > >to this group. They're the smart ones, Brad. The ones that buy
> > >software.
> > >
> >
> > If your opinion actually carried weight it might matter.  Sure, some
OS/2
> > user might think what I say somehow represents Stardock.   But in the
bigger
> > software world, I'm just some guy who's day job is workin at a softare
> > company.  Why, is everything you say here representing your employer?
Is
> > Brad Barclay representing IBM?  Is Dave Tholen representing the
University
> > of Hawaii?
> >
> Actually, I do consider Brad Barclay's words in light of his
> employment with IBM. And I always put the link between you and
> Stardock. And whenever Dave writes something related to astronomy, it
> could reflect on his alma mater.
>
> As for my employer, I'll let him speak for himself: "Karel Jansens is
> a complete idiot who spends way too much time on UseNet when he should
> be out there prospecting houses. His opinions are of course not my
> own. (signed: Karel Jansens)".

Why not take it one step further?  Maybe we should say that now we think you
represent Belgium too since that's where you're from.  I mean, where do you
want to draw the line?

Don't you find it a bit hypocritical that one side of your mouth is saying
that people shouldn't judge something based on what others say and at the
same time you're applying Brad Barclay's viewpoints to an entire corporation
(IBM)?


>
> > I wasn't aware that I was paid on a commission.  Gee, I thought I was
> > salaried like you probably are.  If people are going to make buying
> > decisions based on the personality of an employee of the company then
well,
> > that person should probably reevaluate their purchase making process.  I
> > tend to buy things based on the value of the product or service not
based on
> > whether some guy on the Internet agrees with the buyer's views or not.
> >
> > So now I'm a "prejudiced bigot" simply because I take into account what
> > people believe when forming an opinion?  Wow, I choose not to buy a
video
> > game because everyone's posting it sucks and now I'm a "biggot".
> >
> Read again, Brad. I wrote "if" and "should", not "you bloody well
> are". I personally think you might be on a slippery road, but I will
> not call you a bigot. The prejudice part, well, you practically said
> that yourself.
> >

You called me a bigot already.  As for prejudiced, sure, I'm prejudiced, we
all are prejudiced.  There is poison ivy in my front  yard, not everyone who
comes in contact with it will get a rash but I am prejudiced against poison
ivy based on the experience of others.  I am prejudiced against buying the
game Tiberium Sun because the large majority of people posting on .strategic
say it's a bad game.  I am prejudiced in favor of the next Star Wars film
without even knowing anything about it because I liked the last one.

Now, for example of bigotry.. read what you say next...

> > >Even Windows software. (OK, so those are the not so smart ones)
> >
> >
> > Speaking of prejudiced bigots...
> >
> If you can be prejudiced, so can I.
> >

Saying people aren't smart by their OS choice is way beyond prejudice, it's
bigoted.  Moreover, you are the one arguing that prejudice is BAD remember?
I believe in moderation, you believe in extremes.  Prejudicism in moderation
is useful.  Generalization is moderation is useful.  If you go to an extreme
either way you are either not being realistic or you become a bigot.


> > I suppose if you were in a restraunt and everyone was vomitting because
of
> > food poisoning and they served you your food you would go ahead and eat
it
> > yourself without a second thought since you would want to make that
> > determination personally?  Only after you were barfing your brains out
would
> > you make a judgement call right?
> >
> You still seem to have problems with the difference between facts and
> opinions.

And you base this on....?  You don't know for a FACT that your particular
serving of food is bad.  In fact, differnet people have different thresholds
on what level of "bad" food they can take.


> > >They didn't like me in the army. I had the unnerving habit of asking
> > >"why?" at too many wrong moments. I still see my old sergeant from
> > >time to time (it's been fifteen years now), and she once admitted that

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From: bwardell@mw.mediaone.net                          29-Aug-99 19:15:23
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 19:53:18
Subj: (2/2) Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

> > >I was the reason she quit the service (the why's seemed to stick, she
> > >said). She's now quite successfully running a small supermarket.
> > >
> >
> > I see.  So, do you think that you are representative of the general
> > population then?
> >
> I sincerely hope not. I don't think I could stand it if everybody was
> like me. I do have problems linking your question to my explanation,
> though.

Here is that extremism again.  To you, representative == identical.

The reason I brought it up is that we both agree that you are not
representative of the general population and therefore you certainly cannot
speak as if your opinions are shared by the general population.  You earlier
implied that people reading my posts would somehow boycott my employer or
something.  Clearly, because your viewpoints are not representative (in this
area at the very least) such statements must be taken with a grain of salt.

> >
> > >> Or I wonder how long you'd last in an executive position at a company
> > >> without relying on the opinions of others.
> > >>
> > >Of course I rely on other people's opinions. It's the opinion of the
> > >people I don't trust anybody with.
> > >
> >
> > So you've never had a position of any real responsibility?  You've never
> > hired anyone of course then.
> >
> That's a tough one. I hired the staff in my bar. Sofar they're doing
> okay. I hire contractors when needed for renovations (small stuff I
> can handle myself), but that's usually on a per-job basis. Sofar we
> only had to sue once (it's still going, but it looks as if we're
> winning).

I suppose in a sole proprietership you can get away with being the only
person who interviews people.  Where I work, before someone gets hired they
are interviewed by multiple people and then we form a consensus on whether
that person will fit in.

I value the judgements of my associates and then make a final determination
whether they should be hired.  Or, in Karel-Speak, my associates prejudice
me one way or the other on whether I should hire that person or not.

In reality, this is called sound business practice, but I guess in
Karel-speak it is prejudiced bigotry in action.


> > I've never argued that the majority is always right.  The probability is
> > that if everyone likes a movie or a game or a TV show that I'll probably
> > like it too.  That doesn't mean I will though.
> >
> > You, on the other hand, would dismiss whether everyone hated a movie and
go
> > see it anyway no matter what simply because you proudly give no weight
to
> > the value judgements of other people.
> >
> You're dead right on the movie thing. I make it my point to go see the
> most despised movies (not all of them, of course, but at least three
> or four per year). It sure teached me not to listen to other people
> about movies.

So really what you've been arguing is a classic cultural superiority?  The
rest of us are just prejudiced bigots dispensing ignorant mob justice and
you're just a swell enlightened fellow?

I have no problem with you going to movies everyone else hates, it's your
perogative.  But I have a real big problem with you calling me a prejudiced
bigot who's out for mob justice simply because I choose to avoid movies that
everyone hates because my free time is very precious to me.


> >
> > >> There's an old saying "Parents need to correct their children or
society
> > >> will do it for them."
> > >>
> > >> No one is suggesting that you or Bennie should scorn or be a Tholen
> > >> detractor.  At the same time, you cannot say that those of us who
think
> > >> Tholen is a kook are in the wrong.  Society has expectations for
human
> > >> behavior and when people defy those expectations they pay for it --
as
> > >> Tholen is.  He will always be the object of ridicule on the internet
> > until
> > >> he alters his behavior to fall withint societal norms.  I realize in
this
> > >> age of "individuality" that must seem awful but without societal
norms,
> > it
> > >> is difficult to have a civilized discussion.
> > >>
> > >Allright, when have I ever said you were not entitled to your opinion?
> > >
> > >I won't even answer to the rest of that paragraph. Anybody who thinks
> > >that mob justice is an example of "societal norms" is way beyond me
> > >anyway.
> > >
> >
> > "mob justice"?  Who has suggested such a thing?  Your problem seems to
be
> > that your bias's as so ingrained in you that you don't even realize them
as
> > bias's.
> >
> > Our basic disagreement can be summed up succinctly (despite this
massively
> > long discussion)
> >
> > People on multiple newsgroups think Tholen's a jerk and a kook and
worse.
> > In fact, ratio-wise, of the people who post to Tholen the number of
> > detractors to supporters is very much in favor of the detractors.
> >
> > I think a reasonable human being can conclude that the problem lies with
> > Tholen -- not the detractors.
> >
> > You seem to disagree.  That's your right.  However, my opinion does not
make
> > me a "prejudiced bigot" (as opposed to a non-prejudiced bigot??).
> >
> This is the end of the post, so I'll repeat it for the skimmers: I
> didn't call you a bigot, it was very hypothetical. Prejudiced is
> something else, as you admitted yourself that you will evaluate
> someone based on the opinions of others (if that's not prejudiced, I
> don't know what is). But hey! you're entitled to be prejudiced. I
> don't mind.
>


You most certainly did call me that.  I made an analogy of how I would deal
with a neighbor who was despised by everyone who I didn't know.  I would
make my verdict on him after I got to know him better but I'd think twice
before lending him my lawnmower.

You responded implying that such an analogy paints me as a prejudiced bigot.

To quote:
"But if you should start painting yourself as a prejudiced bigot, don't you
think that would reflect in your business?"


Brad




> Karel Jansens
> jansens_at_ibm_dot_net
> =======================================================
> If we could have our cake _and_ eat it,
> people would start whining about seconds.
> =======================================================
>


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: pcguido@ibm.net                                   29-Aug-99 20:20:09
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 19:53:19
Subj: Re: Attitudes and apologies 

From: pcguido@ibm.net

Esther,

This time your response lacks _all_ context, as you handily deleted
my _entire_ post.

How can you actually deem this a reply; or, for that matter, any
form of 'conversation' ?

That was the _entire_ point of my post, you know...

As for Tim's response to Kelly, it was _absolutely_ accurate,
to the point, and (IMHO) not at all mean.

Your Ms Manners reply however, including the deletion of _all_
context, was not at all polite. You may think that expressing
your opinions in such a rude 'mommy knows best' manner is somehow
professional; but, I suggest you should reserve such treatment
for your family - they have to put up with it, your peers do not.

BTW, while it is true we have disagreed on the subject of how to
respond to the 'stooges'; I have _never_ used FIDONET and that
is most definitely _not_ where we met. We met right here on cooa.

And, you stil owe Tim that apology...

Regards,

Guido


In <LoEFmgJJ9ecw-pn2-3Ni4rn5qpqIv@agave.bitranch.com>, esther@bitranch.com
(Esther Schindler) writes:
|As a writer, Guido, I know that one is judged by quality, not
|quantity. I pick out the message in the message, so to speak, and
|reply to that.
|
|Then again, I usually have to get across a complex point in 300 or 500
|words. I value brevity and information density. Also, I find endless
|quotebacks annoying and difficult to read; I prefer conversation, as
|it encourages an exchange of ideas, rather than repartee. (In my
|experience, message threads that are composed mainly of
|quotebacks-and-replies quickly lose the core of the discussion topic.)
|
|Your mileage, naturally, may vary.
|
|In any case, your major point seems to be that my response lacks the
|context of the conversation. Perhaps it does; I haven't been reading
|the interminable "advocacy's mosquito" thread because it shortly
|became clear that it had nothing to do with OS/2. And, hard as it may
|be for some here to recall, we _are_ here to talk about OS/2. (Cf:
|asses, alligators, clearing swamp)
|
|However, you seem to feel that the context of "responding to the
|newest (and lamest) MS-stooge" is more important than keeping a civil
|tongue. You and I have disagreed on this topic several times, guido,
|in the several years since we first "met" on Fidonet, and I don't
|think we've ever come to a resolution, but I continue to believe that
|treating others with honor and kindness is a worthwhile activity.
|
|Then again, you're quick to label people as stooges and bad guys. I'm
|slow to do so. I don't mind if someone disagrees with me; I figure
|that I have something to learn from an opposing viewpoint, even if
|it's "only" increased empathy with another perspective. If the alleged
|"stooge" is wrong, then it's easy enough to point out that he's wrong.
|If the "stooge" is correct, then it's fair to acknowledge the
|problem... and, since problems can't be solved until they're
|acknowledged, to see what we (or IBM, or whomever) can do about fixing
|it.
|
|I find the exercise of shouting at people, virtually or otherwise, to
|be a waste of time.
|
|--Esther



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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: possum@fred.net                                   29-Aug-99 20:24:05
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 19:53:19
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: possum@fred.net (Mike Trettel)

On Sun, 29 Aug 1999 02:50:50 -0400, Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> wrote:
>Tim Martin wrote:
>> 
>> [snip]
>> 
>> On a personal note:  I have been privileged to work and correspond
>> with Dan Porter and the fine folks at InnoVal for several years now.
>
>Not suggesting that you should be, but why aren't you upset with them and
>calling them Microsoft Salesmen for abandoning OS/2 for windoze
>development?  Is this not what Stardock has done (to a much lessor degree)
>yet you attack them relentlessly?  I just want to understand what's
>different about this situation.  Is it all personal against BW?
>
>- Marty

A very good question.  However, we all should compliment Dan Porter for
not only stellar efforts over the past few years in providing all of us
with good OS/2 software (I have a registered copy of PostRoad 2.5,
which I suppose will now get upgraded to 3.0), but for also doing a
very nice thing when he decided it was time to bail out.  It's bad news
in one sense, but at least he did it nicely.

 --  =========== Mike Trettel    trettel (Shift 2) fred (dinky little
round thing) net

I don't buy from spammers.  No exceptions.  Fix the reply line to mail me.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: nn@nn.nn                                          29-Aug-99 16:31:10
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 19:53:19
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: "nn" <nn@nn.nn>

A.Lizard <"alizard[spam]"@ecis.com> wrote in message

> In a couple of years, I expect "normal" PCs to be running Linux.

MS is a long way from losing the typical OEM desktop market, most users
barely know how to save a file or type in a URL on their computers. Linux
will never be even a remote threat because a typical user cannott and does
not care to hassle with it. Linux is a pain in the ass to install and setup,
sorry. The millions of home users who are driving the market would reject a
Linux OS on their newly purchased computer instantly.




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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: forgitabout@mail.com                              29-Aug-99 16:32:21
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 19:53:19
Subj: Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2

From: forgitabout@mail.com (David H. McCoy)

In article <37c8d0a1.0@oit.umass.edu>, malstrom@emily.oit.umass.edu 
says...
> I'm breaking the bad news to you guys, but it looks like Innoval is 
> getting out of the OS/2 business.  In particular the following products 
> are no longer supported:
> 
> Post Road Mailer for OS/2
> J Street Mailer for Java
> Web Willy Watch for OS/2
> 
> The full press release is at:
> 
> http://www.os2ss.com/warpcast/wc3980.html
> 
> The are quiting in a very dignified matter and I personally hold no 
> grudge against them.  They will be missed.
> 
> -Jason
> 


Here is a quote.."Our company continues to do very well. The consulting 
sideof the business has always been strong. The most exciting
area of business, however, is Iceptur. Iceptur is our new
Internet filtering software for the Windows 95/98/NT
platform. Despite the fact that there are over two hundred
competitors in this market niche, we are experiencing
phenomenal success. This is partly because of the unique"


Wow!! Over 200 other programs of that kind and they are STILL making more 
money than under OS/2.

Well, now I guess it's time for the parasites to start bitchin' about 
Innoval releasing their source.

-- 
---------------------------------------
David H. McCoy
dmccoy@EXTRACT_THIS_mnsinc.com
---------------------------------------

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               29-Aug-99 16:42:14
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 19:53:19
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Mike Trettel wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 29 Aug 1999 02:50:50 -0400, Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> wrote:
> >Tim Martin wrote:
> >>
> >> [snip]
> >>
> >> On a personal note:  I have been privileged to work and correspond
> >> with Dan Porter and the fine folks at InnoVal for several years now.
> >
> >Not suggesting that you should be, but why aren't you upset with them and
> >calling them Microsoft Salesmen for abandoning OS/2 for windoze
> >development?  Is this not what Stardock has done (to a much lessor degree)
> >yet you attack them relentlessly?  I just want to understand what's
> >different about this situation.  Is it all personal against BW?
> >
> >- Marty
> 
> A very good question.  However, we all should compliment Dan Porter for
> not only stellar efforts over the past few years in providing all of us
> with good OS/2 software (I have a registered copy of PostRoad 2.5,
> which I suppose will now get upgraded to 3.0), but for also doing a
> very nice thing when he decided it was time to bail out.  It's bad news
> in one sense, but at least he did it nicely.

No argument there.

- Marty

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: ericb@pobox.com                                   29-Aug-99 16:42:20
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 19:53:19
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)

In article <M3mPvLdzxX1t-pn2-yUwZdB7tGftE@localhost>, rjf@yyycomasia.com
(rj friedman) wrote:

> On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 16:27:30, "Brad Wardell" 
> <bwardell@mw.mediaone.net> wrote:
> 
> ÆI move into a new neighborhood of people that has 12 houses on the block.
> ÆAt the yearly neighborhood association I talk to my neighbors and they keep
> Æmentioning how one neighbor, Bob, is just a complete jerk.  Over and over
at
> Æthis meeting I keep hearing this.
> Æ 
> ÆWhen I leave the meeting, I am probably going to conclude that Bob is
> Æprobably a jerk.
> 
> 
> That's not a logically valid conclusion.
> 
> If you were a logical person, the only valid conclusion that
> you could come to is that - for motives unbeknownst to you -
> the people at the meeting wanted _you_ to think that _they_ 
> felt that their neighbor, Bob, is a complete jerk.
> 
> For all you know, they might not even think Bob is a jerk, 
> at all.

Consider the probabilities of the various possible motivations of the
neighbors... I think the most likely explanation is that they do in fact
believe Bob is a jerk.

To follow your logic here, Brad Wardell, Jeff Glatt, and the rest of
Tholen's *apparent* detractors may actually think he's a great guy and,
due to motives unknown to you, they simply want you to *think* that they
think Tholen is a kook.  How likely do you think this explanation is?


Maybe 90% of all Americans really wanted Ross Perot to be elected
President of the United States in 1992, but for reasons unknown to you and
I many of them voted for Clinton or Bush instead.  Possible, but highly
unlikely.

-- 
Eric Bennett ( http://www.pobox.com/~ericb/ ) 
Cornell University / Chemistry & Chemical Biology

Sixty-seven percent of the doctors surveyed preferred X to Y.
(Jones couldn't be persauded.)  -John Allen Paulos

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: christian.hennecke@ruhr-uni-boch...               29-Aug-99 22:42:00
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 19:53:19
Subj: Re: Warp4-and-HPFS386

Message sender: christian.hennecke@ruhr-uni-bochum.de

From: Christian Hennecke <christian.hennecke@ruhr-uni-bochum.de>

Kelly Robinson schrieb:
> 
> Man, you OS/2 people are so loyal and faithful and not above the law...

Oh well... If you'd read these groups on a more or less regular basis
you would have noticed that this special person has posted messages like
this some times before and that he got a lot of replies of people
expressing their discomfort with him doing so. So far as for you saying
"you OS/2 people". And you won't find any shareware or commercial
software on my computer that's not been paid/registered, be it OS/2
software or Windows games.

BTW, what about the estimated 90% of non-corporate Windows users that
have more or less all of their software pirated? And that's what they
call software availability, nearly everybody has illegal copies of MS
Office or the like.

Christian Hennecke
-- 
Keep passing the open windows! ("The Hotel New Hampshire", John Irving)

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               29-Aug-99 16:49:20
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 19:53:19
Subj: Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

"David H. McCoy" wrote:
> 
> In article <37c8d0a1.0@oit.umass.edu>, malstrom@emily.oit.umass.edu
> says...
> > I'm breaking the bad news to you guys, but it looks like Innoval is
> > getting out of the OS/2 business.  In particular the following products
> > are no longer supported:
> >
> > Post Road Mailer for OS/2
> > J Street Mailer for Java
> > Web Willy Watch for OS/2
> >
> > The full press release is at:
> >
> > http://www.os2ss.com/warpcast/wc3980.html
> >
> > The are quiting in a very dignified matter and I personally hold no
> > grudge against them.  They will be missed.
> >
> > -Jason
> >
> 
> Here is a quote.."Our company continues to do very well. The consulting
> sideof the business has always been strong. The most exciting
> area of business, however, is Iceptur. Iceptur is our new
> Internet filtering software for the Windows 95/98/NT
> platform. Despite the fact that there are over two hundred
> competitors in this market niche, we are experiencing
> phenomenal success. This is partly because of the unique"
> 
> Wow!! Over 200 other programs of that kind and they are STILL making more
> money than under OS/2.

Due to the innovation they've made in the field, which he mentions (and you
removed).  If you perceive that you are at the "head of the field" in some
area, it makes sense to throw all your efforts into this area and cut other
funding where possible.  All this says to me is that they felt they had
more innovation and were closer to the "head of the pack" in their windoze
app than their OS/2 apps.
 
> Well, now I guess it's time for the parasites to start bitchin' about
> Innoval releasing their source.

Heh.

- Marty

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: esther@bitranch.com                               29-Aug-99 21:08:16
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 19:53:19
Subj: Re: Attitudes and apologies 

From: esther@bitranch.com (Esther Schindler)

When live people have a conversation, they don't usually repeat each 
others' words. They respond to them.

   Esther: What did you think of the movie?

   Guido: I liked it.

Not --

   Esther: What did you think of the movie?

   Guido: You asked me what I thought of the movie. I liked it.

I never saw a rule book that said it was required that one quote back 
an entire message. But, if your memory of your own messages is that 
short, and/or your newsreader is so limited, I'll be glad to include 
the original text of your message as a reminder.

I see that I was in error about my recollection about our original 
"meeting site." I apologize. I believe I temporarily switched you, in 
my head, with RJ Friedman, whom I think I *did* meet on Fidonet. I'm 
sorry for the inaccuracy.

Perhaps you think that saying, "I'm curious.  Have you ever 
considered, just for the novelty value, getting something *right* for 
once? Here's what that page says, in the VERY FIRST
FUCKING ITEM ON THE LIST:..." is "not at all mean," but I find it 
confrontative, to say the least.

--Esther

On Sun, 29 Aug 1999 20:20:18, pcguido@ibm.net wrote:

| Esther,
| 
| This time your response lacks _all_ context, as you handily deleted
| my _entire_ post.
| 
| How can you actually deem this a reply; or, for that matter, any
| form of 'conversation' ?
| 
| That was the _entire_ point of my post, you know...
| 
| As for Tim's response to Kelly, it was _absolutely_ accurate,
| to the point, and (IMHO) not at all mean.
| 
| Your Ms Manners reply however, including the deletion of _all_
| context, was not at all polite. You may think that expressing
| your opinions in such a rude 'mommy knows best' manner is somehow
| professional; but, I suggest you should reserve such treatment
| for your family - they have to put up with it, your peers do not.
| 
| BTW, while it is true we have disagreed on the subject of how to
| respond to the 'stooges'; I have _never_ used FIDONET and that
| is most definitely _not_ where we met. We met right here on cooa.
| 
| And, you stil owe Tim that apology...
| 
| Regards,
| 
| Guido

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: esther@bitranch.com                               29-Aug-99 21:09:20
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 19:53:19
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: esther@bitranch.com (Esther Schindler)

On Sun, 29 Aug 1999 20:24:10, possum@fred.net (Mike Trettel) wrote:
| A very good question.  However, we all should compliment Dan Porter for
| not only stellar efforts over the past few years in providing all of us
| with good OS/2 software (I have a registered copy of PostRoad 2.5,
| which I suppose will now get upgraded to 3.0), but for also doing a
| very nice thing when he decided it was time to bail out.  It's bad news
| in one sense, but at least he did it nicely.

I agree wholeheartedly, Mike. It's always nice to see someone behave 
with such class!

--Esther

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: pxpst2@vms.cis.pitt.edu                           29-Aug-99 17:32:23
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 19:53:19
Subj: Re: A problem with flags 

From: pxpst2@vms.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)

In article <slrn7sbb4b.1tm.mawa@audrey.my.box>, mawa@iname.com wrote:

> > Why not be American and let the user decide?  Freedom of choice is RED
> > WHITE AND BLUE, IMO.  Why should one HAVE to use this platform or that
> > platform?  
> 
> Waaah! This is so absurd I can't believe it. "Why not be an
> American... red, white and blue..."
> 
> Red, white and blue are the colours of the Russian flag, too. Just for
> your information.

Well I forgot...


Then let us be like Modern Russians and get FREEDOM OF CHOICE.

I just hope some thug does not extort money out of us for that freedom.

-- 
Peter

_____________________________________________________________________
" Some of you might not agree 
'Cause you probably likes a lot of misery 
But think a while and you will see... 
Broken hearts are for assholes"
                                    FZ

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tomross@iwaynet.net                               29-Aug-99 15:14:18
  To: All                                               29-Aug-99 19:53:19
Subj: Re: A Proposal 

From: tomross@iwaynet.net (Tom Ross)

On Sun, 29 Aug 1999 03:52:23, esther@bitranch.com (Esther Schindler) 
wrote:

> However, you seem to feel that the context of "responding to the 
> newest (and lamest) MS-stooge" is more important than keeping a civil 
> tongue. You and I have disagreed on this topic several times, guido, 
> in the several years since we first "met" on Fidonet, and I don't 
> think we've ever come to a resolution, but I continue to believe that 
> treating others with honor and kindness is a worthwhile activity. 



Esther may be right - perhaps some of us are being hurtful when we 
call some people such names as "MS-Stooge." Perhaps we should sheath 
the caustic barbs we routinely sling at the sensitive souls whose only
purpose here appears to be to ridicule the software we choose to use; 
and in the stead of those caustic barbs we should employ kindness to 
coax - nay, gently admonish - them to the idea that the software we 
choose to use is not unnatural, abnormal or evil. And perhaps we 
should ignore and excuse the repeated caustic barbs and grievous 
inaccuracies these kind, sensitive souls constantly sling at us. 
Perhaps we should rise above the fray and demostrate how to tolerate 
even the most obstinant intolerance. As Esther has repeatedly and 
gently admonished, "You can catch more flies with honey." 

Rather than use the hurtful names like "MS-Stooge" I propose the name 
"Esther," in honor of their protector. And perhaps if we shower these 
"Esthers" with enough honey they'll fly the hell out of here. Or drown
in the sticky goo. Or something.
 


TR

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: forgitabout@mail.com                              29-Aug-99 18:10:14
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 03:42:10
Subj: Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2

From: forgitabout@mail.com (David H. McCoy)

In article <37C99CE4.3B8F907E@stny.rr.com>, mamodeo@stny.rr.com says...
> "David H. McCoy" wrote:
> > 
> > In article <37c8d0a1.0@oit.umass.edu>, malstrom@emily.oit.umass.edu
> > says...
> > > I'm breaking the bad news to you guys, but it looks like Innoval is
> > > getting out of the OS/2 business.  In particular the following products
> > > are no longer supported:
> > >
> > > Post Road Mailer for OS/2
> > > J Street Mailer for Java
> > > Web Willy Watch for OS/2
> > >
> > > The full press release is at:
> > >
> > > http://www.os2ss.com/warpcast/wc3980.html
> > >
> > > The are quiting in a very dignified matter and I personally hold no
> > > grudge against them.  They will be missed.
> > >
> > > -Jason
> > >
> > 
> > Here is a quote.."Our company continues to do very well. The consulting
> > sideof the business has always been strong. The most exciting
> > area of business, however, is Iceptur. Iceptur is our new
> > Internet filtering software for the Windows 95/98/NT
> > platform. Despite the fact that there are over two hundred
> > competitors in this market niche, we are experiencing
> > phenomenal success. This is partly because of the unique"
> > 
> > Wow!! Over 200 other programs of that kind and they are STILL making more
> > money than under OS/2.
> 
> Due to the innovation they've made in the field, which he mentions (and you
> removed).  If you perceive that you are at the "head of the field" in some
> area, it makes sense to throw all your efforts into this area and cut other
> funding where possible.  

I suspect that everyone one of those over 200 people would say that their 
product is innovative, so that particular point is irrelevent. Some 
individual have stated that companies leaving OS/2 would experience the 
"little fish in a big pond" syndrome, that is, be destroyed by the fact 
that Windows has so many companies offering similar products.

I offer Dan Porter as evidence to the contrary.

> All this says to me is that they felt they had
> more innovation and were closer to the "head of the pack" in their windoze
> app than their OS/2 apps.


What? I also left out Dan's statement claiming that OS/2 users made 
PostRoad the number one email client. Surely, you didn't miss this? Now, 
clearly, by this statement they are perceiving that they are "head of the 
pack". Yet, they are bowing out.  This says to me that the OS/2 software 
market and making a living are indeed, mutually exclusive.

> > Well, now I guess it's time for the parasites to start bitchin' about
> > Innoval releasing their source.
> 
> Heh.

:-)

> - Marty
> 

-- 
---------------------------------------
David H. McCoy
dmccoy@EXTRACT_THIS_mnsinc.com
---------------------------------------

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: monty@nooky.gov                                   29-Aug-99 22:20:29
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 03:42:11
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: monty@nooky.gov (Montgomery Burns)

A.Lizard <"alizard[spam]"@ecis.com> wrote in message

> In a couple of years, I expect "normal" PCs to be running Linux.

Have you ever had to deal with a "normal" user?

Normal user bought a windohs box to be compatiable with what s/he runs at
work, partly so that the little experience that s/he has with windohs can
be used at home.

We know how "little" the "normal" user knows about setting up a machine or
know about the contents of the system folder (no help from MS file naming
conventions). Normal user knows the back and forward buttons in a browser,
send button in mailer, and a few things in the wp, and maybe how to chnage
cell contents in excel.

Normal user running Linux? 

Bawaaaaaah!

MB

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         29-Aug-99 23:19:29
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 03:42:11
Subj: Re:  The case for OS/2 Warp, a Super-Charged OS        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Kelly Robinson writes:

> Why don't you vermin youself back to the OS/2 group where you belong?

How ironic, coming from someone who has posted to the OS/2 newsgroup:

] From: "Kelly Robinson" <ispy@groovyshow.com>
] Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
] Subject: vmware mistake
] Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 13:43:57 -0500
] Message-ID: <7q9amu$2cfj@enews3.newsguy.com>

Do you belong here?  Do you consider yourself one of the vermin?

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               29-Aug-99 16:24:09
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 03:42:11
Subj: Re: Warp4-and-HPFS386

From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste)

On Sun, 29 Aug 1999 22:42:01 +0200, Christian Hennecke recycled some holes
into the following pattern:

>Kelly Robinson schrieb:
>> 
>> Man, you OS/2 people are so loyal and faithful and not above the law...
>
>Oh well... If you'd read these groups on a more or less regular basis
>you would have noticed that this special person has posted messages like
>this some times before and that he got a lot of replies of people
>expressing their discomfort with him doing so. So far as for you saying
>"you OS/2 people". And you won't find any shareware or commercial
>software on my computer that's not been paid/registered, be it OS/2
>software or Windows games.
>
>BTW, what about the estimated 90% of non-corporate Windows users that
>have more or less all of their software pirated? And that's what they
>call software availability, nearly everybody has illegal copies of MS
>Office or the like.
>
>Christian Hennecke

I think you may have gotten that statistic slightly wrong. 90% of Windows
users which steal 100% of their software? Not likely...

I think maybe it's more like 90% of Windows users who steal >0% of their
software. That's a much different thing. And come to think of it, I bet
that's equally true for OS/2 users.

Let's try to keep the hateful hyperbole under control, shall we?

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"My hovercraft is full of eels."

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         29-Aug-99 23:33:28
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 03:42:11
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Marty writes:

>> Karel Jansens writes [to Brad Wardell]:

>>> Just one more thing: you _do_ realise that to all the participants and
>>> lurkers in this group you are representing Stardock Systems, don't
>>> you? I mean, I can make a complete arse of myself and Dave Tholen can
>>> be as obnoxious as he wants to be, neither of us are going to lose
>>> even a cent in that. But if you should start painting yourself as a
>>> prejudiced bigot, don't you think that would reflect in your business?
 
>> I've already been told privately that Stardock products would be
>> avoided because of Brad's behavior here.  One person even told me
>> that he emailed that statement directly to Brad.  Brad just treated
>> him the same way he treats me.

> His loss, not Brad's.

Incorrect.

>>> I won't even answer to the rest of that paragraph. Anybody who thinks
>>> that mob justice is an example of "societal norms" is way beyond me
>>> anyway.
 
>> Bravo!  But it's a wonderful example of Brad's brand of reasoning.

> Yeah.  Realism.

More like illogic.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: hobbyist@nospam.net                               29-Aug-99 18:45:00
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 03:42:11
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: hobbyist@nospam.net (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hobbyist_=A9?=)

In response to Montgomery Burns's post :

> A.Lizard <"alizard[spam]"@ecis.com> wrote in message
> 
> > In a couple of years, I expect "normal" PCs to be running Linux.
> 
> Have you ever had to deal with a "normal" user?
> 
> Normal user bought a windohs box to be compatiable with what s/he runs at
> work, partly so that the little experience that s/he has with windohs can
> be used at home.
> 
> We know how "little" the "normal" user knows about setting up a machine or
> know about the contents of the system folder (no help from MS file naming
> conventions). Normal user knows the back and forward buttons in a browser,
> send button in mailer, and a few things in the wp, and maybe how to chnage
> cell contents in excel.
> 
> Normal user running Linux? 
> 
> Bawaaaaaah!

Paradoxically, that's the very user whom linux would be just
right for.

Preinstall linux just like how you'd preinstall windows. Slap KDE
on it and configure linux to boot straight to KDE and install
applications for everyday tasks with their various icons on the
desktop. 

KDE's basic functions are very similar to windows. The user you
described doesn't even seem interested in doing much
configuration or installing any apps. Linux would be fine.

If the user wishes to configure his own system, add his or her
own hardware whenever they wish such as a scanner, zip drive,
modem, graphics card, and most of all install, configure and use
their own software, then they are in for a bumpier ride with
linux.

I understand and can attest to the joys of figuring out linux
though. It's just that sometimes I say to myself after going over
a linux learning hurdle .... Am I really at an advantage doing it
this way apart from the fact that I'm using a free non-windows
OS? Usually, for my purposes, the answer is no and my eventual
conclusion is that it's not worth the effort at this time.
 
-- 

-=Ali=- 

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenAntiSpam@ifa.hawaii.edu                     29-Aug-99 23:46:16
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 03:42:11
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: tholenAntiSpam@ifa.hawaii.edu

Brad Wardell writes:

> Marty wrote:

>> I wrote:

>>> Karel Jansens writes [to Brad Wardell]:

>>>> Just one more thing: you _do_ realise that to all the participants and
>>>> lurkers in this group you are representing Stardock Systems, don't
>>>> you? I mean, I can make a complete arse of myself and Dave Tholen can
>>>> be as obnoxious as he wants to be, neither of us are going to lose
>>>> even a cent in that. But if you should start painting yourself as a
>>>> prejudiced bigot, don't you think that would reflect in your business?

>>> I've already been told privately that Stardock products would be
>>> avoided because of Brad's behavior here.  One person even told me
>>> that he emailed that statement directly to Brad.  Brad just treated
>>> him the same way he treats me.

>> His loss, not Brad's.

> Just for the record, in the 7 years I've been on Usenet I've never had
> someone email me and say they wouldn't buy a product from my employer
> because of my opinions expressed on Usenet.

Of course, you're the person who couldn't remember your own claim about
Edify dropping OS/2 support just one week later, so I'm not surprised
that you wouldn't remember that incident either.

For the record, I have been told by the sender of that email message
not only that he sent it to you, but that you responded with insults.

> I do not think that a reasonable person would read what I wrote originally
> on this topic and find it "bigoted".

You've already demonstrated what you consider "reasonable", and it's not
reasonable.

> In fact, I think most people consider is a plus when people take into
> account the opinions of others when making a decision.

Too bad that you're not doing so.  You're restricting your attention to
a handful of people who have had their FUD countered by me.

> To me, Karel's statements merely strike me as that of an extremist now.

I see you're trying to rationalize away all of the people who disagree
with you, Brad.  How convenient.

>>>> I won't even answer to the rest of that paragraph. Anybody who thinks
>>>> that mob justice is an example of "societal norms" is way beyond me
>>>> anyway.

>>> Bravo!  But it's a wonderful example of Brad's brand of reasoning.

>> Yeah.  Realism.

> I find it strange that Karel and Bennie has repeatedly gone out of his way
> to deny that the Christ analogy somehow compared Tholen's detractors with
> that of a mindless mob.

The discussion was about Bennie allegedly equating me with Christ, Brad.

> Yet, here it is in his own words -- those who don't like Tholen are a
> "mob".

Where are those words, Brad?  What I see are "mob justice", not "like a
mob".  You do know what "mob justice" means, don't you Brad?

> Whatever illusion of impartiality that Karel may have had before is
> clearly gone at this point.

"Whatever illusion of logic that you may had before is clearly gone at
this point."

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         29-Aug-99 23:48:27
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 03:42:11
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Marty writes:

>

You have some emotional need to repost material without adding anything
new, Marty?

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         29-Aug-99 23:48:01
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 03:42:11
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Marty writes:

>>>>>> Marty reached a logical conclusion.
 
>>>> That is *NOT* what I wrote, Marty.
 
>>> Nor what I wrote.
 
>> I wasn't quoting what you wrote, Marty.  I was quoting your edited
>> quotation of mine.

> DT]  M] and furthermore wasn't even an analogy

>>> These are your words Dave.
 
>> They do not represent my meaning, Marty.

> DT]  M] and furthermore wasn't even an analogy

>>> Do you wish to deny that?
 
>> I'll deny that they mean what I wrote, Marty.

> DT]  M] and furthermore wasn't even an analogy

>> You're like the National Lampoon, which edited out the "not"
>> from Nixon's "I am not a crook" and put it on a record album.

> DT]  M] and furthermore wasn't even an analogy
>
> Anyone see any irony here?

They shouldn't, given that the premise had already been established,
Marty.  You even acknowledged it.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         29-Aug-99 23:50:07
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 03:42:11
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Marty writes:

>>>> You're the one arguing with [...] a jerk, Brad.
 
>> So much for your alleged restoration of context, Marty.  Hypocrite.

> Are these not your words Dave?

They're the dictionary's words, Marty.  My words also carry meaning,
which you've purposely destroyed as part of some illogical vendetta.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         29-Aug-99 23:51:08
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 03:42:11
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Marty writes:

>>>> Yes [...] the interpretation is logical, Brad.
 
>> So much for your alleged restoration of context, Marty.

> Are those not your words, Dave?

They're the dictionary's words, Marty.  My words also carry meaning,
which you've purposesly destroyed as part of some illogical vendetta.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         29-Aug-99 23:55:02
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 03:42:11
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [rhetorical]

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Gerben Bergman writes:

> Hey, to prevent this discussion from going off-topic any further: did you
> know there's a town here which is called "Tholen"?

He should, given that I mentioned it in response to Brad Wardell's URL
that allegedly contained mostly anti-Tholen postings in other newsgroups.
In reality, his list included a number of postings from the nl hierarchy
that had absolutely nothing to do with me.

> And that Tholen is a Dutch surname?

My ancestry is not Dutch.  I've been told the name is a derivative of
Bartholomew, which goes back much farther in time.

> That's about the only aspect of my country I'm *not* proud of...

Illogical.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         29-Aug-99 23:59:11
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 03:42:11
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [rhetorical]

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Karel Jansens writes:

>>>> Trackballs tend to get slippery with skins oils.  I've grown quite
>>>> accustomed to the TrackPoint used on ThinkPads.  Took a little getting
>>>> accustomed to it, but I like it better than the touch pads.

>>> I deeply hate touchpads. The little eraserpoints are better, but I 
>>> still lack tactile feedback: I like to go somewhere when I move the 
>>> pointer on the screen, if you know what I mean.

>> No, I don't.  The mouse buttons still have tactile feedback.  The
>> device that moves the pointer doesn't, on touchpads, track points,
>> track balls, and mice.

> Oh. Well... it's just that the little eraser doesn't go anywhere when 
> you push it.

Neither does a touch pad or a trackball (unless you're referring to
its surface rather than its center).  The visual feedback of the mouse
pointer moving should be sufficient.

>>> I've been seriously contemplating forking out for a touch-screen 
>>> monitor and sink that into my worktop, so that it would only protrude 
>>> a couple of centimeters. Or maybe buy one of those lightpens; I worked
>>> with one that had drivers for Warp and it had a pretty good 
>>> resolution, good enough for serious graphics work (I tried tablets, 
>>> but I loose hand-eye coordination very quickly).

>> I've seen touch screens in retail locations (the Muse at Tower Records,
>> for example).  I find them to not work more often than they do work.
>> And I dislike finger smears on monitor screens.

> I've had some pleasant experiences, but I agree on the finger smudges.
> I'd probably use a pen.

A pen point does offer higher precision than a blunt fingertip.

>>>>>> I also still use the Microsoft FORTRAN compiler when I need to create a
>>>>>> 16-bit executable for somebody running DOS.  It has some bugs that were
>>>>>> reported, acknowledged as reproducible by the developers, but never
fixed,
>>>>>> even after four years.  Microsoft has since discontinued development of
>>>>>> their FORTRAN compiler, referring customers to Digital (now Compaq)
>>>>>> instead.

>>>>> Sorry, I try not to program, especially not in FORTRAN.

>>>> Still a good choice for number-crunching applications.  You really
>>>> should look into the latest standard, namely Fortran 95, if your
>>>> objections are due to lack of certain features; it may now have them
>>>> (except no RECORD statement; derived types are handled with a TYPE
>>>> statement, something that Fred Emmerich still hasn't learned).

>>> Dave, you don't get it: it's not the features, it's the talent. I've 
>>> found out that I'm as good at programming as Bill Clinton is at 
>>> celibacy.

>> So your remark wasn't specific to FORTRAN, despite the reference to it
>> especially.

> No, I can safely say that I'm equally untalented in just about any 
> programming language. I'm the sort of guy that can mess up a 
> Logo-program.

To be at the mercy of other programmers!

>>>>>>> The rough I don't mind, it's the stupid that gets on my nerves.

>>>>>> And you're seeing plenty of it from the so-called "detractors".

>>>>> I'm not taking sides (Hah! as if that's going to be believed!), but 
>>>>> here's a shortlist:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Your opinions are only valid if they coincide with everyone else's.

>>>> Yes, they do seem to take that position rather frequently.

>>>>> 2. Fights from another geological era need to be continuously raked 
>>>>> up.

>>>> Which "another geological era" are you referring to?

>>> Let's just say "a long time ago" then.

>> In a galaxy far away?

> Heh. Don't we all wish.

Now, let's not start speaking for "we all".

>>>>> 3. Your opinions are only valid if they coincide with everyone else's.

>>>> Yes, they do seem to take that position rather frequently.

>>>>> 4. If you put out an analogy, _your own_ interpretation of it will not
>>>>> be accepted.

>>>> Sometimes the apologies are obviously not very sincere, considering
>>>> how they turn around and do the same thing over again.

>>>>> 5. Your opinions are only valid if they coincide with everyone else's.

>>>> Yes, they do seem to take that position rather frequently.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: stevem@execpc.com                                 29-Aug-99 20:03:03
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 03:42:11
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: "Steve McCrystal" <stevem@execpc.com>

On Sun, 29 Aug 1999 04:17:33 GMT, Baden Kudrenecky wrote:

>why didn't i, as a licensed JStreet user get any notice about this,

Why didn't I, as a registered user of two of the three programs in question? 
Who the hell know.  Who 
cares.  Trust me, it's true.

> and why didn't Dan post it anywhere on his WWW site, 

Innoval hasn't done anything with their site in some time now.  In fact, you
get linked to Yahoo, IIRC.  



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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: y2k@uswest.net.NO$PAM                             29-Aug-99 20:08:12
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 03:42:11
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: "D. Scott Secor - Millennial Infarction Mitigator"
<y2k@uswest.net.NO$PAM>

nn <nn@nn.nn> wrote in message news:7qc54g$1gr$1@ffx2nh3.news.uu.net...
>
> A.Lizard <"alizard[spam]"@ecis.com> wrote in message
>
> > In a couple of years, I expect "normal" PCs to be running Linux.
>
> MS is a long way from losing the typical OEM desktop market, most users
> barely know how to save a file or type in a URL on their computers. Linux
> will never be even a remote threat because a typical user cannott and does
> not care to hassle with it. Linux is a pain in the ass to install and
setup,
> sorry. The millions of home users who are driving the market would reject
a
> Linux OS on their newly purchased computer instantly.

I classify the "normal" user as not knowing which side of the keyboard faces
skyward.  You can't tell me that this type of individual will be able to
handle Linux in its various incarnations without massive improvements.

NT is bad enough when it comes to the dearth of device drivers for
bleeding-edge peripherals.  Hell, it doesn't do all that good of a job on
running oddball programs from a DOS box.  And you expect the typical BDEU
(brain-dead end user) to migrate their Windows apps to Linux?

I don't think so, but I really would like to see someone give Microsoft a
run for their money in the not too distant future.  Solaris 8.x, perhaps?

Ciao,


--
D. Scott Secor, Year 2000 Institute Site Index -- http://y2k.board.org/
Y2k tools & docs. available from red Content menu on each page.
Universal Y2k Readiness Test:  Begin by making a fist then repeat
after me -- "Y" ... "two" ... "K" ...  Check knuckles for whiteness!


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               29-Aug-99 21:20:20
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 03:42:11
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

tholenAntiSpam@ifa.hawaii.edu wrote:
> 
[some more stupid crap to Brad Wardell]

Who are you talking to Dave?  Brad can only see what other people quote
from you.  Still verbally masturbating, talking to your right hand?  You're
gonna go blind.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               29-Aug-99 21:24:27
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 05:29:12
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Dave Tholen wrote:
> 
> Marty writes:
> 
> >>>>>> Marty reached a logical conclusion.
> 
> >>>> That is *NOT* what I wrote, Marty.
> 
> >>> Nor what I wrote.
> 
> >> I wasn't quoting what you wrote, Marty.  I was quoting your edited
> >> quotation of mine.
> 
> > DT]  M] and furthermore wasn't even an analogy
> 
> >>> These are your words Dave.
> 
> >> They do not represent my meaning, Marty.
> 
> > DT]  M] and furthermore wasn't even an analogy
> 
> >>> Do you wish to deny that?
> 
> >> I'll deny that they mean what I wrote, Marty.
> 
> > DT]  M] and furthermore wasn't even an analogy
> 
> >> You're like the National Lampoon, which edited out the "not"
> >> from Nixon's "I am not a crook" and put it on a record album.
> 
> > DT]  M] and furthermore wasn't even an analogy
> >
> > Anyone see any irony here?
> 
> They shouldn't, given that the premise had already been established,
> Marty.  You even acknowledged it.

I didn't agree to the premise and anyone who reads the posts can see that. 
Case closed.  Good-bye.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tzs@halcyon.com                                   29-Aug-99 18:14:22
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 05:29:12
Subj: Re: vmware mistake

From: tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith)

Esther Schindler <esther@bitranch.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 20:50:37, tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith) wrote:
>| I'm curious.  Have you ever considered, just for the novelty value, getting
>| something *right* for once?  
>
>Tim, the guy apologized already. He said he was wrong, and he went out
>of the way to point it out. The proper response is gracious acceptance
>of his error.

You misread his post, I'm afraid.  He once said that VMWare supported OS/2.
That was wrong, and *THAT* was what he apologized for.  I'm flaming him
because in that apology, he said that OS/2 was last on the list of OSs that
they plan to support in the future, and cited a FAQ from VMWare whose very
first item directly contradicts that statement.

--Tim Smith

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               29-Aug-99 18:21:25
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 05:29:12
Subj: Re: Java continues to splinter

From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste)

On Mon, 23 Aug 1999 21:20:21 -0400, Joseph recycled some holes into the
following pattern:

>Why just this week Compaq stunned MS by dumping NT and favoring LINUX Alpha
and
>Java.  Yes. Sun is making Java x86 NCs with LINUX

This was posted about a week ago by our good friend. As seems all too
common, Joseph took a small amount of data and blew it up into a huge trend
-- by misinterpreting it to satisfy his built-in prejudices.

How do I know this? Because someone from Compaq has now posted an extended
article about the subject in Joseph's
soon-to-be-no-longer-favorite-publication, the Register.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/990829-000001.html

I recommend reading the whole thing, because it will indicate just how wrong
Joseph has been about virtually everything he's posted on this subject.

At one point, I posted this:

>Actually, I think it tells us what they (Compaq) think of the Alpha. This 
>doesn't tell us a thing about what they think of W2K, since that product 
>hasn't been released yet.
>
>Despite its technical elegance and power, the Alpha has been a market 
>disaster and simply never came off as a product.
> 
>I think Compaq may be beginning to think "exit strategy" on the Alpha.
http://x37.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=515611435

He responded with the following:

>Compaq wants to rid itself of unprofitable and crummy OSs like NT Alpha -- 
>this tells us what Compaq thinks of W2K.  This is the ONLY non-MS group to 
>really know about W2K and thay are bailing out of the OS.
>
>Compaq is dumping a loser OS.  This is a business decision -- a decision to 
>layoff 100 NT OS experts.
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=515578861


Jim Boak, Director of Corporate Technical Strategy at Compaq Computer
Corporation, says in his message:

'The 64 bit version is built on the Windows2000 codeline, and only those
components which are 64-bit sensitive are unique to the 64 bit version. This
implies that the primary Windows2000 code manages memory and pointers in a
way which will be compatible with both 32 bit and 64 bit operations. This is
a substantial benefit to the overall robustness of the code and positions
Windows2000 for a long life as the industry transitions to 64 bit
platforms.'

<snip>

'Compaq always intended to bring IA64 products to market which would host
the 64 bit Windows products. The change over the last few weeks is that we
are no longer planning to offer an Alpha product in that same market space.
We have seen, from the strong performance and customer enthusiasm for our
8-way ProLiant servers, that these products are now able to compete in
performance with the best of the RISC architectures. Customers have told us
that they want a simplified product roadmap with clear segmentation around
which products to use for which purposes. Our ISV partners have given us the
same feedback. It is very expensive to develop two identical products for
the same market space, but on two different architectures. This is one of
the problems which plagued the database vendors in the Unix space a few
years ago - the porting and verification work was greater than the core
product development work. Both Compaq and its development partners would
prefer to devote those resources to producing products which have greater
capability and more robustness, and clearly, focusing on a single platform
helps in that goal.'


I'll leave it as an exercise for the student whether Joseph or myself was
more accurate in our appraisal of the situation.

====================

I also find it interesting that this agrees very closely with my argument
recently made that it was desirable to have only one platform for ISVs to
target. Clearly Compaq and the ISVs to whom they've been talking think this
is so.

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
              -- Calvin

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               29-Aug-99 21:31:06
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 05:29:12
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Dave Tholen wrote:
> 
> Marty writes:
> 
> >
> 
> You have some emotional need to repost material without adding anything
> new, Marty?

You have some emotional need to address Brad Wardell directly when he's not
listening to you?

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               29-Aug-99 21:32:26
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 05:29:12
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Dave Tholen wrote:
> 
> Marty writes:
> 
> >>>> You're the one arguing with [...] a jerk, Brad.
> 
> >> So much for your alleged restoration of context, Marty.  Hypocrite.
> 
> > Are these not your words Dave?
> 
> They're the dictionary's words, Marty.

Are those not the words you wrote, Dave?

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               29-Aug-99 21:33:25
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 05:29:12
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Dave Tholen wrote:
> 
> Marty writes:
> 
> >> Karel Jansens writes [to Brad Wardell]:
> 
> >>> Just one more thing: you _do_ realise that to all the participants and
> >>> lurkers in this group you are representing Stardock Systems, don't
> >>> you? I mean, I can make a complete arse of myself and Dave Tholen can
> >>> be as obnoxious as he wants to be, neither of us are going to lose
> >>> even a cent in that. But if you should start painting yourself as a
> >>> prejudiced bigot, don't you think that would reflect in your business?
> 
> >> I've already been told privately that Stardock products would be
> >> avoided because of Brad's behavior here.  One person even told me
> >> that he emailed that statement directly to Brad.  Brad just treated
> >> him the same way he treats me.
> 
> > His loss, not Brad's.
> 
> Incorrect.

How do you know Dave?  I didn't know you were Brad's accountant.
 
> >>> I won't even answer to the rest of that paragraph. Anybody who thinks
> >>> that mob justice is an example of "societal norms" is way beyond me
> >>> anyway.
> 
> >> Bravo!  But it's a wonderful example of Brad's brand of reasoning.
> 
> > Yeah.  Realism.
> 
> More like illogic.

More like realism.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               29-Aug-99 21:34:11
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 05:29:12
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Dave Tholen wrote:
> 
> Marty writes:
> 
> >>>> Yes [...] the interpretation is logical, Brad.
> 
> >> So much for your alleged restoration of context, Marty.
> 
> > Are those not your words, Dave?
> 
> They're the dictionary's words, Marty.

Are these not the words that you wrote?

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         30-Aug-99 00:00:20
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 05:29:12
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [time's up] [context guard]

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Marty writes:

>>>> You just indicated [...] responses to me [...] will be unimportant.  I
agree.
 
>> Posting another unimportant response, eh Marty?

> How ironic.

On what basis do you make that claim, Marty?

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               29-Aug-99 21:49:05
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 05:29:12
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [time's up] [context guard]

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Dave Tholen wrote:
> 
> Marty writes:
> 
> >>>> You just indicated [...] responses to me [...] will be unimportant.  I
agree.
> 
> >> Posting another unimportant response, eh Marty?
> 
> > How ironic.
> 
> On what basis do you make that claim, Marty?

See what I mean?

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         30-Aug-99 01:14:21
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 05:29:12
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Readers should pay particular attention to the end of this article,
where there is even more evidence for Brad Wardell's lies.  I'd
appreciate it if someone not in Brad Wardell's killfile would be
sure to quote the portion below the line of equal signs so that
Brad can see it.

Brad Wardell writes [to Karel Jansens]:

> I move into a new neighborhood of people that has 12 houses on the block.
> At the yearly neighborhood association I talk to my neighbors and they
> keep mentioning how one neighbor, Bob, is just a complete jerk.

Typical inappropriate analogy.  A more appropriate analogy would be if
members of some other neighborhood association, say one that favored
house construction with lots of windows, decided to attend your own
neighborhood association for some unknown reason.  These "guests" then
distinguish themselves by telling your neighbors how the neighborhood
is so run down and how theirs is so much better.  Bob decides to stand
up to these "guests", but they respond with insults, calling him "a
complete jerk".

> Over and over at this meeting I keep hearing this.

But you actually don't mind what Bob is doing at all, because you also
disagree with the "guests".  That all changes when Bob stands up to you.
Suddenly you change your mind and start siding with the "guests".  You
are showing how you're two-faced.

> When I leave the meeting, I am probably going to conclude that Bob is
> probably a jerk.

Illogical, given the behavior that the "guests" have demonstrated.

> I'm going to try to withold final judgement until I meet Bob

Also inappropriate, given that you and Bob met some years ago when you
thought he was still a college student.

> but odds are, Bob is a jerk

Illogical, for reasons given above.

> and at the very least, there is something about Bob that seems to
> anger his neighbors

Also inappropriate.  We're talking about the "guests" from some other
neighborhood who showed up at your neighborhood association meeting to
put down your neighborhood.

> that he should really look at changing if he wants to get along with
> people.

Why should Bob want to get along with people from other neighborhoods
who show up at your own neighborhood association meeting just to put
down your neighborhood?

> Now, this has real live implications.  So I go home and Bob comes over
> to my house and wants to borrow my lawn mower.  Well, normally I wouldn't
> think twice of lending a neighbor my lawnmower but after hearing all this
> negativity on Bob, I decide not to until I learn more about Bob.

You already know enough about Bob.  You never did mind how he stood up
to the "guests".  It was only *after* Bob diagreed with you that you
couldn't stand it anymore.

> Sure, I have become "predjuced" towards Bob based on the consensus of my
> neighbors.

They're not your neighbors, Brad.  They're from some other neighborhood.

> I have not decided he's a bad guy or anything of the like,

You have decided that Bob is "mildly retarded", however.

> but I am merely changing my lending habits of assuming eveyrone's a
> nice guy to one of neutrality until I learn more about Bob.

Neutrality?  You've been insulting Bob's intelligence, telling him he
has his head in the sand, and so on.

> I believe most people would do the same

What you believe is irrelevant, Brad.  Most people don't go around
insulting those who disagree.

> and it's not bigotry or ignorance, it's common sense.

Do you really think it's common sense to insult those who disagree with
you, Brad?

> There's no "mob justice" (as you later claim) involved here,

Balderdash, Brad.  Why do you think people from another neighborhood
showed up at your won neighborhood association meeting?

> it's a basic RESPECT for the views of one's neighbors.

They're not your neighbors, Brad.

> I'm the one who is holding the position that one should take into account
> what the opinion of the majority is and then reserve final judgement.

Piffle.  You haven't even consulted the majority, Brad.

> Whether it's Tholen or Tim Martin or whatever other person who we're talking
> about, we can never "prove" that someone is technically a kook because it
> isn't a defined scientific term.

Hasn't stopped you from treating your use of the term as a fact, Brad.

> But what you cannot do is deny that there is a pretty solid consensus
> that Tholen is a kook.

Yes, he can deny it, Brad, because there is no solid consensus.  All he
has is your unsubstantiated claim.

> People have presented evidence for their viewpoint.

Who are these people, Brad?

===============================================================================


> Here's a quick Dejanews search on Tholen AND kook and NOT in
> comp.os.os2.advocacy
>
> http://www.deja.com/dnquery.xp?DBS=2&VW=&QRY=Tholen+AND+kook+not+comp.os.os2
> ..advocacy&svcclass=dnserver
>
> It brings up 1600 posts.

No it doesn't, Brad.  It says "about 1600".  Did you even bother to scroll
through the listing?  Subsequent screens have the estimate jumping back
and forth from "about 1600" to "about 500", ultimately stopping with
"exactly 361".  Over 1200 *LESS* than you claimed, Brad.  That happens to
be a characteristic of the deja.com search engine that I've been aware of
for some time now.  It overestimates the number of matches until you get
near the end of the list of matches.

Furthermore, 172 (!) of the 361 entries are from none other than Jason S.!
Numerous others are from Joe Malloy, Edwin Thorne, and Jeremy Reimer.
Many of them are responses *by me* to them, posted from *this* newsgroup.

> These are all people I've never heard of posting in news groups

You've never heard of Jason S., Brad???

> I don't visit and this is just in the first 20 entries of the 1600.

There aren't 1600, Brad.  Your research skills are seriously lacking.
Your search effort failed to exclude articles that were cross-posted,
thus most of them were in fact in this newsgroup, the one that you
were trying to exclude.  You also failed to count unique individuals.
Nearly half of the total was posted by a single individual, namely
Jason S.

> These are people who have encountered Tholen and judged him to be a
> kook.

On what basis do you make that claim, Brad?  Many of those postings are
from people *contradicting* the claim of Jason S.  Obviously you didn't
even bother to look, Brad.  If you don't think that makes you look like
an idiot, you've got another think coming.

> When so many different people with different backgrounds come together
> and form the consensus that Dave Tholen is a kook, then is it really
> that unreasonable to conclude that Tholen probably is a kook?

Yes it is unreasonable, when you didn't even bother to check your facts.

> You may personally not agree with that but that doesn't make the rest
> of us wrong.

Who are "the rest of us", Brad?  The 1600 you imagined?

> Oh and btw, remember how Tholen kept calling me a liar for saying that he's
> gotten more than "6 votes"

Where did I ever do that, Brad?  I called you a liar when you claimed that
there were "hundreds" of people with their names listed as having voted
for me.

> Here are the kook voting results:
>
> http://polls.whatiz.com/poll.cgi?action=results&poll=300
>
> Tholen got 955 votes.

No names listed, Brad, contrary to your claim.  And you didn't address
the matter of fraud.  Have you also kill-filed Eric Bennett, Brad?

EB] The other poll (csma KOTM) was not well protected against vote fraud.
EB] I had an amusing evening playing with their vote counting system to
EB] see if I could get around their belatedly instituted safeguards
EB] (which I did...

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: baden@unixg.ubc.ca                                30-Aug-99 02:07:11
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 05:29:13
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: baden@unixg.ubc.ca   (Baden Kudrenecky)

In <37C8BBE3.90229050@WarpCity.com>, Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com> writes:
>Baden Kudrenecky wrote:

>the second message from Dan Porter regarding the  "J Street Mailer
>Initiative".  Warp City has been running exclusive JSM information, files
>and upgrades offered by Samatra Software (Paul vanKeep and now
>Mike Bowler) to Warp City members, many of whom use JSM.  Dan
>may have submitted it to us (Warp City) because he feels confident
>we will report his feelings, public statements and support of the
>the newly created JSM Initiative.  InnoVal has every right on earth
>to be proud as punch of JSM.  It is the finest 100% Java emailer
>program on the market today.  Emerald Mail, MailPuccini and the
>other entries have yet to equal the quality and features of JSM.
>
>Paul vanKeep and Mike Bowler have stepped forward to devote
>their personal time and extraordinary Java programming skills
>to ensure J Street Mailer stays 'out front' in the Java Emailer
>category.  They have released a flurry of upgrades over the
>last few weeks and are improving JSM with each release.  Another
>release is expected any day now (PVK8).  A long list of new features
>and bug fixes have been released.  Paul and Mike intend on improving
>the quality of JSM beyond its current high quality state.  Their time,
>efforts and exemplary work have all been offered for free because of
>their admiration for the fine J Street Mailer.  JSM runs on Linux,
>Windows95/98/NT, Mac and especially well on OS/2.   One program
>that runs under all operating systems.  It is an amazing piece of
>work created by InnoVal.

   Where can obtain the JStreet updates, as there was not on
Innoval's site, even before they ditched everything?

   I am currently looking for a new mail program to replace
UltiMail, and I am testing PMMail, JStreet, and now Post Road,
and the only program that even comes close to my acceptability,
is JStreet, however, it's memory footprint is huge, and that may
preclude me from using it, and besides, I would like to actually
support native OS/2 software.


baden

baden@unixg.ubc.ca
http://baden.nu/
OS/2, Solaris & Linux

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: rerbert@wxs.nl                                    30-Aug-99 04:22:07
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 05:29:13
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [rhetorical]

From: rerbert@wxs.nl (Gerben Bergman)

Deep within his glass house, Dave Tholen threw the following stones:

| My ancestry is not Dutch.

Why, thank you Dave. That's the nicest thing you've ever said to me.

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         30-Aug-99 02:14:02
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 05:29:13
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Marty writes:

> [some more stupid crap to Brad Wardell]

What's allegedly stupid about it, Marty?

> Who are you talking to Dave?

The readers, Marty.

> Brad can only see what other people quote from you.

Supposedly.  And people are quoting from me.

> Still verbally masturbating,

On what basis do you call it verbal masturbation, Marty?

> talking to your right hand?

Not at all, Marty.

> You're gonna go blind.

On what basis do you make that prediction, Marty?

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         30-Aug-99 02:18:14
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 05:29:13
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Marty writes:

>>>>>> You're the one arguing with [...] a jerk, Brad.
 
>>>> So much for your alleged restoration of context, Marty.  Hypocrite.
 
>>> Are these not your words Dave?
 
>> They're the dictionary's words, Marty.

> Are those not the words you wrote, Dave?

I see you chose to ignore the rest of my response, otherwise you
would have no logical basis for your question.

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         30-Aug-99 02:16:26
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 05:29:13
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Marty writes:

>>>>>>>> Marty reached a logical conclusion.

>>>>>> That is *NOT* what I wrote, Marty.

>>>>> Nor what I wrote.

>>>> I wasn't quoting what you wrote, Marty.  I was quoting your edited
>>>> quotation of mine.

>>> DT]  M] and furthermore wasn't even an analogy

>>>>> These are your words Dave.

>>>> They do not represent my meaning, Marty.

>>> DT]  M] and furthermore wasn't even an analogy

>>>>> Do you wish to deny that?

>>>> I'll deny that they mean what I wrote, Marty.

>>> DT]  M] and furthermore wasn't even an analogy

>>>> You're like the National Lampoon, which edited out the "not"
>>>> from Nixon's "I am not a crook" and put it on a record album.

>>> DT]  M] and furthermore wasn't even an analogy
>>>
>>> Anyone see any irony here?

>> They shouldn't, given that the premise had already been established,
>> Marty.  You even acknowledged it.

> I didn't agree to the premise

Then why did you acknowledge it, Marty?  If Bennie doesn't know what
he meant, who does?

> and anyone who reads the posts can see that. 

Anyone who reads the posts can see that Bennie didn't specify any
individual.  He even said so.

> Case closed.

Then why do you keep bringing it up, Marty?

> Good-bye.

Yeah, right.

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         30-Aug-99 02:15:05
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 05:29:13
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Marty writes:

>>>> Karel Jansens writes [to Brad Wardell]:
 
>>>>> Just one more thing: you _do_ realise that to all the participants and
>>>>> lurkers in this group you are representing Stardock Systems, don't
>>>>> you? I mean, I can make a complete arse of myself and Dave Tholen can
>>>>> be as obnoxious as he wants to be, neither of us are going to lose
>>>>> even a cent in that. But if you should start painting yourself as a
>>>>> prejudiced bigot, don't you think that would reflect in your business?

>>>> I've already been told privately that Stardock products would be
>>>> avoided because of Brad's behavior here.  One person even told me
>>>> that he emailed that statement directly to Brad.  Brad just treated
>>>> him the same way he treats me.

>>> His loss, not Brad's.
 
>> Incorrect.

> How do you know Dave?

Because I was told.

> I didn't know you were Brad's accountant.

Illogic, given that I don't need to be Brad's accountant to know that
Stardock has lost business as a result of Brad's behavior here.

>>>>> I won't even answer to the rest of that paragraph. Anybody who thinks
>>>>> that mob justice is an example of "societal norms" is way beyond me
>>>>> anyway.
 
>>>> Bravo!  But it's a wonderful example of Brad's brand of reasoning.
 
>>> Yeah.  Realism.
 
>> More like illogic.

> More like realism.

More like illogic.

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         30-Aug-99 02:19:20
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 05:29:13
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [time's up] [context guard]

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Marty writes:

>>>>>> You just indicated [...] responses to me [...] will be unimportant.  I
agree.
 
>>>> Posting another unimportant response, eh Marty?
 
>>> How ironic.
 
>> On what basis do you make that claim, Marty?

> See what I mean?

I see you didn't answer my question.  It figures.

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         30-Aug-99 02:19:07
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 05:29:13
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Marty writes:

>>>>>> Yes [...] the interpretation is logical, Brad.
 
>>>> So much for your alleged restoration of context, Marty.
 
>>> Are those not your words, Dave?
 
>> They're the dictionary's words, Marty.

> Are these not the words that you wrote?

I see you chose to ignore the rest of my response, otherwise
you'd have no logical basis for your question.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: "operagost"@e-mail.com (remove t...               30-Aug-99 02:27:29
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 05:29:13
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

Message sender: "operagost"@e-mail.com (remove the - )

From: Stephen Eickhoff <"operagost"@e-mail.com (remove the - )>


Tim Martin wrote:

> I have just received the following from Dan Porter of
> Innoval Systems Solutions, Inc.:
>
> From: Dan Porter  6:21 PM (PST), August 28, 1999
> Subject: InnoVal and OS/2
> To: os2guy@warpcity.com
>
> Effective immediately, InnoVal Systems Solutions, Inc. is withdrawing
> the following products from marketing and support.
>
> Post Road Mailer for OS/2
> J Street Mailer for Java
> Web Willy Watch for OS/2

Join the club of plane-jumpers!

>
> Anyone may download free copies of these products from our online store
> at http://stores.yahoo.com/innoval. In addition, anyone may freely
> distribute executable copies of the software through online software
> repositories and websites. You are encouraged to do so because we will
> only be able to keep them in our online store for a limited time. If you

Ooh, I can have a product that will be obsolete in months for FREE!

> For me, personally, this is a sad day. Our company tried to hang in as
> long as possible with OS/2. OS/2 is still my favorite platform and OS/2
> customers are the best customers our company ever had. I have made many
> good friends through my associations with all of you. You ll still see
> me popping in at OS/2 users group meetings throughout the country when
> my travels coincide with a meeting.

I certainly can't speak for everyone, but I'd rather not see ya.

What are you going to do, convince us to move to Windows so we can use your
products?

>
> Our company continues to do very well. The consulting side of the
> business has always been strong. The most exciting area of business,
> however, is Iceptur. Iceptur is our new Internet filtering software for
> the Windows 95/98/NT platform. Despite the fact that there are over two
> hundred competitors in this market niche, we are experiencing phenomenal

>
> success. This is partly because of the unique technology we developed
> and partly because there is a strong demand for high quality Internet
> filtering solutions (release 2.0 will hit the streets by September 5th).

I doubt it. Everyone I speak to has never heard of your company. And I was
plugging Web Willy, it was a product that was actually more than just a
pattern matcher.
However, it's unlikely you'll be able to pull away much market from Cyber
Patrol, much less Microsoft when they enter the market any day now.

>
> We have entered into a number of strategic alliances with several
> companies to market Iceptur and license the underlying technology for
> use in other products.
>

Oh, I guess the terms of the contract was to ditch OS/2.
Hope one of them is MS, if you intend to survive.

>
> I need, now, to focus all of InnoVal s resources on Iceptur and our
> consulting business. I tried, during the past year, to juggle resources
> but in doing so was not doing the right kind of job for our customers,
> the OS/2 community at-large, InnoVal s employees, or InnoVal s owners.
> You made the Post Road Mailer into the number one email client for OS/2.
>

When was that? Nobody I know uses it. It's between PMMail and Netscape.

>
> You worked with us on J Street Mailer as we tried to negotiate a
> platform independent course with Java. You have my thanks and the thanks
>
> of everyone at InnoVal.

Sorry you failed. Better luck with  0.5% of that crowded niche you were
talking about.

>
> We are moving on to bigger things, but not better. OS/2 was better and
> (oh, how I wish) it could have been big.

Lip service.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               29-Aug-99 22:28:13
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 05:29:13
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Dave Tholen wrote:
> 
> Marty writes:
> 
> > [some more stupid crap to Brad Wardell]
> 
> What's allegedly stupid about it, Marty?
> 
> > Who are you talking to Dave?
> 
> The readers, Marty.

Are the readers named Brad?
 
> > Brad can only see what other people quote from you.

> > Still verbally masturbating, talking to your right hand?
> > You're gonna go blind.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: "operagost"@e-mail.com (remove t...               30-Aug-99 02:28:29
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 05:29:13
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

Message sender: "operagost"@e-mail.com (remove the - )

From: Stephen Eickhoff <"operagost"@e-mail.com (remove the - )>


Baden Kudrenecky wrote:

> In <37C899FF.D4371FE0@WarpCity.com>, Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com>
writes:
> >I have just received the following from Dan Porter of
> >Innoval Systems Solutions, Inc.:
>
>    How do we know this is true, i.e, why didn't i, as a licensed
> JStreet user get any notice about this, and why didn't Dan post
> it anywhere on his WWW site, which BTW, has nothing else on it
> but "Iceptur"?

Because Innoval doesn't care about you anymore, now that they got a sack of
money
from their partners.

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From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               29-Aug-99 22:29:09
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 05:29:13
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [time's up] [context guard]

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Dave Tholen wrote:
> 
> Marty writes:
> 
> >>>>>> You just indicated [...] responses to me [...] will be unimportant. 
I agree.
> 
> >>>> Posting another unimportant response, eh Marty?
> 
> >>> How ironic.
> 
> >> On what basis do you make that claim, Marty?
> 
> > See what I mean?
> 
> I see you didn't answer my question.  It figures.

See what I mean?

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From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               29-Aug-99 22:30:19
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 05:29:13
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Dave Tholen wrote:
> 
> Marty writes:
> 
> >>>>>> You're the one arguing with [...] a jerk, Brad.
> 
> >>>> So much for your alleged restoration of context, Marty.  Hypocrite.
> 
> >>> Are these not your words Dave?
> 
> >> They're the dictionary's words, Marty.
> 
> > Are those not the words you wrote, Dave?
> 
> I see you chose to ignore the rest of my response, otherwise you
> would have no logical basis for your question.

Are those not the words you wrote, Dave?

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From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               29-Aug-99 22:33:02
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 05:29:13
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Dave Tholen wrote:
> 
> Marty writes:
> 
> >>>> Karel Jansens writes [to Brad Wardell]:
> 
> >>>>> Just one more thing: you _do_ realise that to all the participants and
> >>>>> lurkers in this group you are representing Stardock Systems, don't
> >>>>> you? I mean, I can make a complete arse of myself and Dave Tholen can
> >>>>> be as obnoxious as he wants to be, neither of us are going to lose
> >>>>> even a cent in that. But if you should start painting yourself as a
> >>>>> prejudiced bigot, don't you think that would reflect in your business?
> 
> >>>> I've already been told privately that Stardock products would be
> >>>> avoided because of Brad's behavior here.  One person even told me
> >>>> that he emailed that statement directly to Brad.  Brad just treated
> >>>> him the same way he treats me.
> 
> >>> His loss, not Brad's.
> 
> >> Incorrect.
> 
> > How do you know Dave?
> 
> Because I was told.

And I was told not by someone in a high position at Stardock.  Hmm... who
should I believe?
 
> > I didn't know you were Brad's accountant.
> 
> Illogic, given that I don't need to be Brad's accountant to know that
> Stardock has lost business as a result of Brad's behavior here.

Bottom line -- Is it hurting Stardock?  Brad's answer is a resounding No.

> >>>>> I won't even answer to the rest of that paragraph. Anybody who thinks
> >>>>> that mob justice is an example of "societal norms" is way beyond me
> >>>>> anyway.
> 
> >>>> Bravo!  But it's a wonderful example of Brad's brand of reasoning.
> 
> >>> Yeah.  Realism.
> 
> >> More like illogic.
> 
> > More like realism.
> 
> More like illogic.

More like realism.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               29-Aug-99 22:33:27
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 05:29:13
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Dave Tholen wrote:
> 
> Marty writes:
> 
> >>>>>> Yes [...] the interpretation is logical, Brad.
> 
> >>>> So much for your alleged restoration of context, Marty.
> 
> >>> Are those not your words, Dave?
> 
> >> They're the dictionary's words, Marty.
> 
> > Are these not the words that you wrote?
> 
> I see you chose to ignore the rest of my response, otherwise
> you'd have no logical basis for your question.

Are these not the words that you wrote?

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: dmcbride@no.tower.spam.to.org                     30-Aug-99 02:31:06
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 05:29:13
Subj: Re: Attitudes and apologies 

From: "Darin McBride" <dmcbride@no.tower.spam.to.org>

On 29 Aug 1999 21:08:32 GMT, Esther Schindler wrote:

>I never saw a rule book that said it was required that one quote back 
>an entire message. But, if your memory of your own messages is that 
>short, and/or your newsreader is so limited, I'll be glad to include 
>the original text of your message as a reminder.

Esther,

Some of us still are on Fido.  We get a fair bit of mail, and often write
more than we should.  Keeping track of it all would task even an elephant. 
Sometimes, we lurkers only appear halfway through the conversation, or we may
have killfiled the esteemed individual you may be conversing with.  Some may
even read newsgroups offline, and may have already purged previous messages
in the thread (hey, people using OS/2 can, theoretically, use old hardware,
including small HD's, unlike *some* OS's... :->).

Shortform: please quote.  :-)

At the least, quote the parts you're referring to, and cut what isn't
relevant.

Thanks.  :-)
---
Disclaimer: unless explicitly mentioned otherwise, I do not speak,
nor have I ever spoken, for the company I work for.



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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenAntiSpam@ifa.hawaii.edu                     30-Aug-99 02:21:01
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 05:29:13
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: tholenAntiSpam@ifa.hawaii.edu

Marty writes:

>>>
 
>> You have some emotional need to repost material without adding anything
>> new, Marty?

> You have some emotional need to address Brad Wardell directly when he's not
> listening to you?

Who said I'm addressing Brad Wardell directly, Marty?

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               29-Aug-99 22:49:28
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 05:29:13
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

tholenAntiSpam@ifa.hawaii.edu wrote:
> 
> Marty writes:
> 
> >>>
> 
> >> You have some emotional need to repost material without adding anything
> >> new, Marty?
> 
> > You have some emotional need to address Brad Wardell directly when he's
not
> > listening to you?
> 
> Who said I'm addressing Brad Wardell directly, Marty?

You did, every time you said ", Brad" try reading what you write once in a
while.

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From: malstrom@wilde.oit.umass.edu                      29-Aug-99 22:46:19
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 05:29:13
Subj: Re: vmware mistake

From: JM <malstrom@wilde.oit.umass.edu>

Esther Schindler <esther@bitranch.com> wrote:
: On Sun, 29 Aug 1999 07:22:49, JM <malstrom@emily.oit.umass.edu> wrote:

: | No, he went out of his way to say that he was wrong about OS/2 being 
: | supported.  What he got wrong with his correction is OS/2 is the only 
: | other OS that is likely to be added to the supported list while all other 
: | operating systems won't be added.  He stated that OS/2 was the last on 
: | the list to supported, which is back ass backwards.  He has a history of 
: | getting the facts wrong.

: He's not the only one. <chuckle> When one is confused about a topic, 
: it's easy to *stay* confused about a topic. You should see me trying 
: to figure out what I misunderstand about network hardware; I go 
: through several iterations of saying (to myself) "wrong, you idiot!" 
: before the light bulb turns on.

When one refers to a webpage, one should at the very least read the web 
page.  If he had skimmed it for 30 seconds he would have known that OS/2 
was the only one on the list to be added for support not the last one. 

: Accept the apology in the spirit in which it's taken. Correct the 
: errors, gently and with kindness. Rather than being rude, assume that 
: someone is well-meaning but misinformed.

The spirit of David's apology was to laugh in the face of OS/2 users.  He 
has shown a constant vendetta against IBM and OS/2 and has repeated posted 
inncorrect information to FUD OS/2, which he has no ability to back up.

When his intentions is no longer to ridicule OS/2 at every oppertunity, 
then you may be able to expect people to be more patient with his never 
ending series of errors.

: Being relentlessly upbeat can only make you look good. If the other 
: person is a malice-riddled twit, then _you_ come across as a 
: benevolent, understanding person who is, nonetheless, nobody's fool, 
: and your personal credibility is enhanced. If your opponent is well 
: meaning but misinformed, then you simply have a conversation in which 
: both people have the opportunity to become wiser.

Gee, when I stayed relentlessly upbeat about Win32-os/2 you got on my case.

Since when has David's, AKA Kelly Robinson's intentions been well meaning??

-Jason

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From: malstrom@wilde.oit.umass.edu                      29-Aug-99 22:36:23
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 05:29:13
Subj: Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2

From: JM <malstrom@wilde.oit.umass.edu>

David H. McCoy <forgitabout@mail.com> wrote:
: In article <37C99CE4.3B8F907E@stny.rr.com>, mamodeo@stny.rr.com says...
:> "David H. McCoy" wrote:

:> > Here is a quote.."Our company continues to do very well. The consulting
:> > sideof the business has always been strong. The most exciting
:> > area of business, however, is Iceptur. Iceptur is our new
:> > Internet filtering software for the Windows 95/98/NT
:> > platform. Despite the fact that there are over two hundred
:> > competitors in this market niche, we are experiencing
:> > phenomenal success. This is partly because of the unique"
:> > 
:> > Wow!! Over 200 other programs of that kind and they are STILL making more
:> > money than under OS/2.

They never made Iceptur under OS/2.  The previous product, Willy Web 
Watch, was ported to OS/2, but try to imagine how many OS/2 users worry 
about their kids using their computer to surf as compared to Windows 
users.  If you have a kid you generally get Windows or a Mac, you don't 
get Linux or OS/2.

:> 
:> Due to the innovation they've made in the field, which he mentions (and you
:> removed).  If you perceive that you are at the "head of the field" in some
:> area, it makes sense to throw all your efforts into this area and cut other
:> funding where possible.  

: I suspect that everyone one of those over 200 people would say that their 
: product is innovative, so that particular point is irrelevent. Some 
: individual have stated that companies leaving OS/2 would experience the 
: "little fish in a big pond" syndrome, that is, be destroyed by the fact 
: that Windows has so many companies offering similar products.

: I offer Dan Porter as evidence to the contrary.

It is poor evidence.  They have been developing their product all along 
exclusively to the Windows market.  This is in addition to their email 
program which has now been stopped.  You don't see them making Post road 
mailer for Windows do you?  In fact their cross platform email program, 
was also stopped.

:> All this says to me is that they felt they had
:> more innovation and were closer to the "head of the pack" in their windoze
:> app than their OS/2 apps.

: What? I also left out Dan's statement claiming that OS/2 users made 
: PostRoad the number one email client. Surely, you didn't miss this? Now, 
: clearly, by this statement they are perceiving that they are "head of the 
: pack". Yet, they are bowing out.  This says to me that the OS/2 software 
: market and making a living are indeed, mutually exclusive.

The felt they had the best technology, but the weren't the most popular 
mailer.  In fact, I couldn't believe as many email programs were able to 
keep a float as their was.  I mean they had ahead of them, PMMail, 
Mr/2Ice, and Netscape.

:> > Well, now I guess it's time for the parasites to start bitchin' about
:> > Innoval releasing their source.
:> 
:> Heh.

: :-)

They have already let the developement of J street mailer to continue.

-Jason

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From: malstrom@wilde.oit.umass.edu                      29-Aug-99 22:48:26
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 05:29:13
Subj: Re: vmware mistake

From: JM <malstrom@wilde.oit.umass.edu>

Tim Smith <tzs@halcyon.com> wrote:
: Esther Schindler <esther@bitranch.com> wrote:
:>On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 20:50:37, tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith) wrote:
:>| I'm curious.  Have you ever considered, just for the novelty value,
getting
:>| something *right* for once?  
:>
:>Tim, the guy apologized already. He said he was wrong, and he went out
:>of the way to point it out. The proper response is gracious acceptance
:>of his error.

: You misread his post, I'm afraid.  He once said that VMWare supported OS/2.
: That was wrong, and *THAT* was what he apologized for.  I'm flaming him
: because in that apology, he said that OS/2 was last on the list of OSs that
: they plan to support in the future, and cited a FAQ from VMWare whose very
: first item directly contradicts that statement.

He also stated that BeOS was supported by VMWare, while in truth VMWare 
has no plans of ever supporting BeOs on VMWare.  He never corrected 
himself on this matter even though it was originally stated along with 
OS/2 and the corrected information being in the same part of the FAQ.

-Jason

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From: donnelly@tampabay.rr.com                          30-Aug-99 03:07:07
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 05:29:13
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: donnelly@tampabay.rr.com (Buddy Donnelly)

On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 02:27:59, Stephen Eickhoff <"operagost"@e-mail.com 
(remove the - )> a Ścrit dans un message:

> >
> > Anyone may download free copies of these products from our online store
> > at http://stores.yahoo.com/innoval. In addition, anyone may freely
> > distribute executable copies of the software through online software
> > repositories and websites. You are encouraged to do so because we will
> > only be able to keep them in our online store for a limited time. If you
> 
> Ooh, I can have a product that will be obsolete in months for FREE!

My sentiments, too, except that I've been listening all along for the words
"Open Source" which I haven't heard.

Open Source on these abandoned products would be a nice sincere touch, in 
my opinion. (And I won't mention the money I spent on Innoval products that
had been abandoned long before now, and already written off as useless.)

There's also the factor of the ongoing developers like Nick Knight, who may
or may not see a downward blip in their registrations when a competing mail
client gets dumped for free. For anybody considering this, I'll just say 
here that I've owned both Postroad and MR2 mail and have used MR2 
exclusively.

Good luck,

Buddy

Buddy Donnelly
donnelly@tampabay.rr.com


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From: baden@unixg.ubc.ca                                30-Aug-99 03:15:26
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 05:29:13
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: baden@unixg.ubc.ca   (Baden Kudrenecky)

In <P_ly3.343$cM2.81390@typhoon1.gnilink.net>, Stephen Eickhoff
<"operagost"@e-mail.com (remove the - )> writes:

   Who the hell are you?  You sure aren't an OS/2 user, or you
would know about Innoval and their products.  You sure aren't a
positive person, or you would not have posted this crap.  I have
nothing but praise for Innoval's products, and I am only sorry
that there was not enough revenue to help keep Dan supporting 
his discontinued products.


>Tim Martin wrote:
>
>> I have just received the following from Dan Porter of
>> Innoval Systems Solutions, Inc.:
>>
>> From: Dan Porter  6:21 PM (PST), August 28, 1999
>> Subject: InnoVal and OS/2
>> To: os2guy@warpcity.com
>>
>> Effective immediately, InnoVal Systems Solutions, Inc. is withdrawing
>> the following products from marketing and support.
>>
>> Post Road Mailer for OS/2
>> J Street Mailer for Java
>> Web Willy Watch for OS/2
>
>Join the club of plane-jumpers!
>
>>
>> Anyone may download free copies of these products from our online store
>> at http://stores.yahoo.com/innoval. In addition, anyone may freely
>> distribute executable copies of the software through online software
>> repositories and websites. You are encouraged to do so because we will
>> only be able to keep them in our online store for a limited time. If you
>
>Ooh, I can have a product that will be obsolete in months for FREE!

   So, I paid for it, and I'm not complaining.  They still work.

>> For me, personally, this is a sad day. Our company tried to hang in as
>> long as possible with OS/2. OS/2 is still my favorite platform and OS/2
>> customers are the best customers our company ever had. I have made many
>> good friends through my associations with all of you. You ll still see
>> me popping in at OS/2 users group meetings throughout the country when
>> my travels coincide with a meeting.
>
>I certainly can't speak for everyone, but I'd rather not see ya.
>
>What are you going to do, convince us to move to Windows so we can use your
>products?
>
>>
>> Our company continues to do very well. The consulting side of the
>> business has always been strong. The most exciting area of business,
>> however, is Iceptur. Iceptur is our new Internet filtering software for
>> the Windows 95/98/NT platform. Despite the fact that there are over two
>> hundred competitors in this market niche, we are experiencing phenomenal
>
>>
>> success. This is partly because of the unique technology we developed
>> and partly because there is a strong demand for high quality Internet
>> filtering solutions (release 2.0 will hit the streets by September 5th).
>
>I doubt it. Everyone I speak to has never heard of your company. And I was
>plugging Web Willy, it was a product that was actually more than just a
>pattern matcher.
>However, it's unlikely you'll be able to pull away much market from Cyber
>Patrol, much less Microsoft when they enter the market any day now.
>
>>
>> We have entered into a number of strategic alliances with several
>> companies to market Iceptur and license the underlying technology for
>> use in other products.
>>
>
>Oh, I guess the terms of the contract was to ditch OS/2.
>Hope one of them is MS, if you intend to survive.
>
>>
>> I need, now, to focus all of InnoVal s resources on Iceptur and our
>> consulting business. I tried, during the past year, to juggle resources
>> but in doing so was not doing the right kind of job for our customers,
>> the OS/2 community at-large, InnoVal s employees, or InnoVal s owners.
>> You made the Post Road Mailer into the number one email client for OS/2.
>>
>
>When was that? Nobody I know uses it. It's between PMMail and Netscape.
>
>>
>> You worked with us on J Street Mailer as we tried to negotiate a
>> platform independent course with Java. You have my thanks and the thanks
>>
>> of everyone at InnoVal.
>
>Sorry you failed. Better luck with  0.5% of that crowded niche you were
>talking about.
>
>>
>> We are moving on to bigger things, but not better. OS/2 was better and
>> (oh, how I wish) it could have been big.
>
>Lip service.


baden

baden@unixg.ubc.ca
http://baden.nu/
OS/2, Solaris & Linux

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: pasnak@delete.cableregina.com                     29-Aug-99 21:22:04
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 05:29:13
Subj: Poll at Everything for OS/2

From: pasnak@delete.cableregina.com (J.P. Pasnak)

I've created a 'must have' poll at 
http://members.xoom.com/Warped/every/everything.html  .  This first 
one is a trial run, and depending on reponse/usability , I may go with
a weekly/bi-monthly poll, with archived responses.

Let me know what you think.

J.P. Pasnak
Warped Systems
******************
http://members.xoom.com/Warped/every/everything.html
http://members.xoom.com/Warped/every/dirmap.html
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/warpedusers
*******************

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: yaztromo@idirect.com                              29-Aug-99 23:36:01
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 05:29:13
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: Brad Barclay <yaztromo@idirect.com>

Buddy Donnelly wrote:

> On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 02:27:59, Stephen Eickhoff <"operagost"@e-mail.com
> (remove the - )> a ?crit dans un message:
>
> > >
> > > Anyone may download free copies of these products from our online store
> > > at http://stores.yahoo.com/innoval. In addition, anyone may freely
> > > distribute executable copies of the software through online software
> > > repositories and websites. You are encouraged to do so because we will
> > > only be able to keep them in our online store for a limited time. If you
> >
> > Ooh, I can have a product that will be obsolete in months for FREE!
>
> My sentiments, too, except that I've been listening all along for the words
> "Open Source" which I haven't heard.

    Why - are POP and SMTP suddenly going to change?  These protocols have
been
around for years and are quite stable.

    There isn't much you can do with an E-Mail program these days.  When it's
done, it's done.  The protocols won't be changing anytime soon, so unless you
plan on moving to a Microsoft Exchange based E-Mail system, these products
will
continue to work for many, many, many years, without being obsolete.

Brad BARCLAY


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From: rw@nospam.net                                     29-Aug-99 23:43:10
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 05:29:13
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: "Heinz Weissmuller" <rw@nospam.net>

Baden Kudrenecky <baden@unixg.ubc.ca> wrote in message
news:JHmy3.6058$2k6.77680@news1.rdc1.bc.home.com...
> In <P_ly3.343$cM2.81390@typhoon1.gnilink.net>, Stephen Eickhoff
<"operagost"@e-mail.com (remove the - )> writes:
>
>    Who the hell are you?  You sure aren't an OS/2 user, or you
> would know about Innoval and their products.

I was an OS/2 user once... Never cared for Innoval stuff, and now I don't
care for OS/2. Don't spam me, OK?

>You sure aren't a
> positive person, or you would not have posted this crap.

Give me an example of a "positive person" so that I can post to your liking.

> I have
> nothing but praise for Innoval's products, and I am only sorry
> that there was not enough revenue to help keep Dan supporting
> his discontinued products.

Why don't you send him your piggybank?




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From: yaztromo@idirect.com                              29-Aug-99 23:44:22
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 05:29:13
Subj: Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2

From: Brad Barclay <yaztromo@idirect.com>

"David H. McCoy" wrote:

> What? I also left out Dan's statement claiming that OS/2 users made
> PostRoad the number one email client. Surely, you didn't miss this? Now,
> clearly, by this statement they are perceiving that they are "head of the
> pack". Yet, they are bowing out.  This says to me that the OS/2 software
> market and making a living are indeed, mutually exclusive.

    How may E-Mail clients do you use?  Probably the same number as everyone
else:  one.  And how much opportunity is there for upgrading the E-Mail
client?
The mail protocols, POP3 and SMTP have been stable for years, and certainly
aren't changing.  There comes a time when there isn't any further you can
really
go with a piece of software.

    No, developing OS/2 software and making a living is not mutually
exclusive.
With E-Mail software, you quickly run into a situation where the market is
saturated.  As it is, in the OS/2 world there are quite a few actively
developed
E-Mail program choices, so you reach market saturation quicker than you would
with other types of products.  Indeed, Innoval was in a position where they
had
two E-Mail products, which in market terms means you wind up competing with
yourself.

    I would also like to point out here that Dan's posting has stated that
their
consulting business is doing quite well.  Seeing as how Innoval has long been
a
part of the OS/2 community, one can probably safely assume that they're making
money off OS/2 consulting.  If this is true, then they aren't leaving the OS/2
community - they're simply changing their focus (as Dan himself points out).
Besides which, Innoval's products are still with us - and now they're free of
charge (my only concern with this is that I hope that it doesn't affect other
OS/2 ISV's which compete against these products and charge for their competing
product - OS/2 users now have some high-quality choices which are totally
free,
and that can be very hard to compete against).

Brad BARCLAY


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From: yaztromo@idirect.com                              29-Aug-99 23:47:16
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 05:29:13
Subj: Re: Java continues to splinter

From: Brad Barclay <yaztromo@idirect.com>

"Steven C. Den Beste" wrote:

> >Why just this week Compaq stunned MS by dumping NT and favoring LINUX Alpha 
and
> >Java.  Yes. Sun is making Java x86 NCs with LINUX
>
> This was posted about a week ago by our good friend. As seems all too
> common, Joseph took a small amount of data and blew it up into a huge trend
> -- by misinterpreting it to satisfy his built-in prejudices.

    That doesn't sound like anybody we know, now does it?  Someone who has
something
against, say, Java for example, and who started this thread int he first
place?

Brad BARCLAY


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From: jedi@dementia.mishnet                             29-Aug-99 21:09:28
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 05:29:13
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()

On Sun, 29 Aug 1999 18:45:01 -0400, Hobbyist ø <hobbyist@nospam.net> wrote:
>In response to Montgomery Burns's post :
>
>> A.Lizard <"alizard[spam]"@ecis.com> wrote in message
>> 
>> > In a couple of years, I expect "normal" PCs to be running Linux.
>> 
>> Have you ever had to deal with a "normal" user?
>> 
>> Normal user bought a windohs box to be compatiable with what s/he runs at
>> work, partly so that the little experience that s/he has with windohs can
>> be used at home.
>> 
>> We know how "little" the "normal" user knows about setting up a machine or
>> know about the contents of the system folder (no help from MS file naming
>> conventions). Normal user knows the back and forward buttons in a browser,
>> send button in mailer, and a few things in the wp, and maybe how to chnage
>> cell contents in excel.
>> 
>> Normal user running Linux? 
>> 
>> Bawaaaaaah!
>
>Paradoxically, that's the very user whom linux would be just
>right for.
>
>Preinstall linux just like how you'd preinstall windows. Slap KDE
>on it and configure linux to boot straight to KDE and install
>applications for everyday tasks with their various icons on the
>desktop. 
>
>KDE's basic functions are very similar to windows. The user you
>described doesn't even seem interested in doing much
>configuration or installing any apps. Linux would be fine.
>
>If the user wishes to configure his own system, add his or her
>own hardware whenever they wish such as a scanner, zip drive,
>modem, graphics card, and most of all install, configure and use
>their own software, then they are in for a bumpier ride with
>linux.

	Menus work just as well under Unix, or GEM for that 
	matter, as they do under windows. Ditto for install
	scripts and package managers.

	Now, in the instance of whether or not some random
	device will be supported in some OS !dos, these 
	OSes !dos will always be at a disadvantage, MacOS 
	and BeOS included.

[deletia]

	Long gone are the days of fvwm and xfm.

-- 

It helps the car, in terms of end user complexity and engineering,         
that a car is not expected to suddenly become wood chipper at some    |||
arbitrary point as it's rolling down the road.                       / | \
						                       
			Seeking sane PPP Docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com

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From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               29-Aug-99 20:56:27
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 05:29:13
Subj: Re: Poll at Everything for OS/2

From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste)

On 29 Aug 1999 21:22:08 -0800, J.P. Pasnak recycled some holes into the
following pattern:

>I've created a 'must have' poll at 
>http://members.xoom.com/Warped/every/everything.html  .  This first 
>one is a trial run, and depending on reponse/usability , I may go with
>a weekly/bi-monthly poll, with archived responses.
>
>Let me know what you think.
>
>J.P. Pasnak
>Warped Systems
>******************
>http://members.xoom.com/Warped/every/everything.html
>http://members.xoom.com/Warped/every/dirmap.html
>http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/warpedusers
>*******************

I'm glad to see that I'm not starring in THIS poll... (But I voted for the
coconuts, just to be polite)

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
              -- Calvin

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From: thannymeister@spambegone.yahoo.com                30-Aug-99 01:39:28
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 05:29:13
Subj: Re: vmware mistake

From: "Mike Ruskai" <thannymeister@spambegone.yahoo.com>

On 29 Aug 1999 22:46:38 -0500, JM wrote:

[snip]

>Since when has David's, AKA Kelly Robinson's intentions been well meaning??

Am I correct in assuming that you mean Kelly Robinson is an alias for
David H. McCoy?

If so, that would explain a lot.  



 - Mike

Remove 'spambegone' to send e-mail.


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From: pcguido@ibm.net                                   30-Aug-99 06:20:21
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 12:22:12
Subj: Re: Attitudes and apologies 

From: pcguido@ibm.net

In <LoEFmgJJ9ecw-pn2-Vky9dYUpVUE7@agave.bitranch.com>, esther@bitranch.com
(Esther Schindler) writes:
|When live people have a conversation, they don't usually repeat each
|others' words. They respond to them.

cooa is not live, nor is it a conversation between just two people...

|
|	Esther: What did you think of the movie?
|
|	Guido: I liked it.
|
|Not --
|
|	Esther: What did you think of the movie?
|
|	Guido: You asked me what I thought of the movie. I liked it.

BTW, in public speaking, this is _exactly_ what you _are_ supposed to do.

|I never saw a rule book that said it was required that one quote back
|an entire message. But, if your memory of your own messages is that
|short, and/or your newsreader is so limited, I'll be glad to include
|the original text of your message as a reminder.

I didn't write a word about quoting an entire message; but, who would
ever know when you delete _all_ context? Is that your intention? Hope not.

|I see that I was in error about my recollection about our original
|"meeting site." I apologize. I believe I temporarily switched you, in
|my head, with RJ Friedman, whom I think I *did* meet on Fidonet. I'm
|sorry for the inaccuracy.
|
|Perhaps you think that saying, "I'm curious.  Have you ever
|considered, just for the novelty value, getting something *right* for
|once? Here's what that page says, in the VERY FIRST
|FUCKING ITEM ON THE LIST:..." is "not at all mean," but I find it
|confrontative, to say the least.
|
|--Esther

What I think is that you might want to follow an 'exchange' before
upbraiding the wrong guy! Kelly Robinson is not only as lame as
they come, he was being inaccurate to the point of deliberate
untruthfulness - and plenty 'confrontative' himself...

Face it Esther, the Ms Manners routine has very little bearing
on the course of events. If you want to act that way yourself, in
your own exchanges, more power to you; but, giving free advice
to those who do not ask for it is not always the polite thing to do.

I read another of your posts in which you explained your theories
on same; and, I really don't disagree with your expression of how
_you_ deal with these issues. Pushing it at others, however, seems
more that a little bit condesending.

Trust me, I am not advocating general incivility, I find that just
as offensive as you do. But (and this is a big one), I find the
behavior of stooges like Robinson _equally_ offensive, and no more
polite to boot!

I for one, figure that Tim must have meant what he wrote,
exactly as he wrote it; else, why the capitals/shouting et al?
If Tim's behaviour (or mine for that matter) does not agree with
you, maybe you might want to try comp.os.os2.moderated? I hear
everybody is _very_ polite there; but, it bores me too much to
visit very often... :)

regards,

Guido

|On Sun, 29 Aug 1999 20:20:18, pcguido@ibm.net wrote:
|
|| Esther,
||
|| This time your response lacks _all_ context, as you handily deleted
|| my _entire_ post.
||
|| How can you actually deem this a reply; or, for that matter, any
|| form of 'conversation' ?
||
|| That was the _entire_ point of my post, you know...
||
|| As for Tim's response to Kelly, it was _absolutely_ accurate,
|| to the point, and (IMHO) not at all mean.
||
|| Your Ms Manners reply however, including the deletion of _all_
|| context, was not at all polite. You may think that expressing
|| your opinions in such a rude 'mommy knows best' manner is somehow
|| professional; but, I suggest you should reserve such treatment
|| for your family - they have to put up with it, your peers do not.
||
|| BTW, while it is true we have disagreed on the subject of how to
|| respond to the 'stooges'; I have _never_ used FIDONET and that
|| is most definitely _not_ where we met. We met right here on cooa.
||
|| And, you stil owe Tim that apology...
||
|| Regards,
||
|| Guido
|



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From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               29-Aug-99 22:37:22
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 12:22:12
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste)

On Sun, 29 Aug 1999 23:36:03 -0400, Brad Barclay recycled some holes into
the following pattern:

>Buddy Donnelly wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 02:27:59, Stephen Eickhoff <"operagost"@e-mail.com
>> (remove the - )> a ?crit dans un message:
>>
>> > >
>> > > Anyone may download free copies of these products from our online store
>> > > at http://stores.yahoo.com/innoval. In addition, anyone may freely
>> > > distribute executable copies of the software through online software
>> > > repositories and websites. You are encouraged to do so because we will
>> > > only be able to keep them in our online store for a limited time. If
you
>> >
>> > Ooh, I can have a product that will be obsolete in months for FREE!
>>
>> My sentiments, too, except that I've been listening all along for the words
>> "Open Source" which I haven't heard.
>
>    Why - are POP and SMTP suddenly going to change?  These protocols have
been
>around for years and are quite stable.
>
>    There isn't much you can do with an E-Mail program these days.  When it's
>done, it's done.  The protocols won't be changing anytime soon, so unless you
>plan on moving to a Microsoft Exchange based E-Mail system, these products
will
>continue to work for many, many, many years, without being obsolete.
>
>Brad BARCLAY
>

Sorry to disagree with you, but in fact there's a lot you can do with a mail
program.

How about more intelligent filtering? (Agent lets me use regular expressions
on the subject line, but I'd like to be able to filter on the contents of a
message, so that anything which contains the phrase "MLM" goes straight into
the trash bin.) Automated responses to messages? ("I'm on vacation right
now, but I'll get back to you in two weeks.")

Better folder manipulation?

Searching of folders using complex search rules?

Easy connection to multiple servers?

Oh, I can think of many things. The interface with the mail server may be
mature, but there's much that can be done with the interface with the human
user.

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
              -- Calvin

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From: pcguido@ibm.net                                   30-Aug-99 06:26:20
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 12:22:12
Subj: Re: vmware mistake

From: pcguido@ibm.net

In <gunaalzrvfgrelnubbpbz.fh9jql0.pminews@netnews.worldnet.att.net>, "Mike
Ruskai" <thannymeister@spambegone.yahoo.com> writes:
|On 29 Aug 1999 22:46:38 -0500, JM wrote:
|
|[snip]
|
||Since when has David's, AKA Kelly Robinson's intentions been well meaning??
|
|Am I correct in assuming that you mean Kelly Robinson is an alias for
|David H. McCoy?
|
|If so, that would explain a lot.
|
| - Mike
|
|Remove 'spambegone' to send e-mail.

I don't know if Jason is referencing David McCoy; but, when it
comes to unstable alter-ego's, that particular David _does_
come to mind!

:) Guido

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From: ericb@pobox.com                                   30-Aug-99 03:07:26
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 12:22:13
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)

In article <7qcpll$dhq$4@news.hawaii.edu>, tholenantispam@hawaii.edu wrote:

> Marty writes:
> 
> > Are those not the words you wrote, Dave?
> 
> I see you chose to ignore the rest of my response, otherwise you
> would have no logical basis for your question.


How ironic, coming from someone who split off the rest of one of my
responses, in order to create an illogical basis for a question, as
demonstrated by the following:


In message <7jaen2$5us@news.Hawaii.Edu>, Dave Tholen wrote:

> Eric Bennett writes:
>
> > [Dave tholen wrote:]
> >
> > > When do you expect to complete your examination?
>
> > I do not expect to complete it.
>
> Why?
>
> > I have more important things to do, like posting in the emulator threads.



How predictable, coming from Dave "Do as I say, not as I do" Tholen.

-- 
Eric Bennett ( http://www.pobox.com/~ericb/ ) 
Cornell University / Chemistry & Chemical Biology

Sixty-seven percent of the doctors surveyed preferred X to Y.
(Jones couldn't be persauded.)  -John Allen Paulos

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From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu                             30-Aug-99 07:37:01
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 12:22:13
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu

Marty writes:

>>> [some more stupid crap to Brad Wardell]
 
>> What's allegedly stupid about it, Marty?

>>> Who are you talking to Dave?
 
>> The readers, Marty.

> Are the readers named Brad?

Irrelevant, Marty.  The readers didn't make the erroneous claims.

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From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu                             30-Aug-99 07:33:10
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 12:22:13
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [rhetorical]

From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu

Gerben Bergman writes:

> Deep within his glass house,

What alleged glass house, Gerben?

> Dave Tholen threw the following stones:

What alleged stones, Gerben?

>> My ancestry is not Dutch.

> Why, thank you Dave. That's the nicest thing you've ever said to me.

I thought I was in your kill file, Gerben.  And some people still
question the logic of responding to people who claim to use such
a device.

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From: tholenAntiSpam@ifa.hawaii.edu                     30-Aug-99 07:42:02
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 12:22:13
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [time's up] [context guard]

From: tholenAntiSpam@ifa.hawaii.edu

Marty writes:

>>>>>>>> You just indicated [...] responses to me [...] will be unimportant.
>>>>>>>> I agree.
 
>>>>>> Posting another unimportant response, eh Marty?
 
>>>>> How ironic.
 
>>>> On what basis do you make that claim, Marty?
 
>>> See what I mean?
 
>> I see you didn't answer my question.  It figures.

> See what I mean?

I see you still didn't answer my question.  It figures.

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From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu                             30-Aug-99 07:43:23
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 12:22:13
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu

Marty writes:

>>>>>>>> You're the one arguing with [...] a jerk, Brad.
 
>>>>>> So much for your alleged restoration of context, Marty.  Hypocrite.
 
>>>>> Are these not your words Dave?
 
>>>> They're the dictionary's words, Marty.
 
>>> Are those not the words you wrote, Dave?
 
>> I see you chose to ignore the rest of my response, otherwise you
>> would have no logical basis for your question.

> Are those not the words you wrote, Dave?

I see you still chose to ignore the rest of my response, otherwise you
would have no logical basis for your question.

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From: tholenAntiSpam@ifa.hawaii.edu                     30-Aug-99 07:43:03
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 12:22:13
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: tholenAntiSpam@ifa.hawaii.edu

Marty writes:

>>>>>> Karel Jansens writes [to Brad Wardell]:

>>>>>>> Just one more thing: you _do_ realise that to all the participants and
>>>>>>> lurkers in this group you are representing Stardock Systems, don't
>>>>>>> you? I mean, I can make a complete arse of myself and Dave Tholen can
>>>>>>> be as obnoxious as he wants to be, neither of us are going to lose
>>>>>>> even a cent in that. But if you should start painting yourself as a
>>>>>>> prejudiced bigot, don't you think that would reflect in your business?

>>>>>> I've already been told privately that Stardock products would be
>>>>>> avoided because of Brad's behavior here.  One person even told me
>>>>>> that he emailed that statement directly to Brad.  Brad just treated
>>>>>> him the same way he treats me.

>>>>> His loss, not Brad's.

>>>> Incorrect.

>>> How do you know Dave?

>> Because I was told.

> And I was told not by someone in a high position at Stardock.

Someone who is a known liar, is known to have a short memory, and has
a motive to deny the evidence.

> Hmm... who should I believe?

Is it logical to believe someone who is known to lie, Marty?

>>> I didn't know you were Brad's accountant.
 
>> Illogic, given that I don't need to be Brad's accountant to know that
>> Stardock has lost business as a result of Brad's behavior here.

> Bottom line -- Is it hurting Stardock?

At some level.

> Brad's answer is a resounding No.

Brad is a known liar.

>>>>>>> I won't even answer to the rest of that paragraph. Anybody who thinks
>>>>>>> that mob justice is an example of "societal norms" is way beyond me
>>>>>>> anyway.

>>>>>> Bravo!  But it's a wonderful example of Brad's brand of reasoning.

>>>>> Yeah.  Realism.

>>>> More like illogic.

>>> More like realism.

>> More like illogic.

> More like realism.

More like illogic.

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From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu                             30-Aug-99 07:44:10
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 12:22:13
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu

Marty writes:

>>>>>>>> Yes [...] the interpretation is logical, Brad.
 
>>>>>> So much for your alleged restoration of context, Marty.
 
>>>>> Are those not your words, Dave?
 
>>>> They're the dictionary's words, Marty.
 
>>> Are these not the words that you wrote?
 
>> I see you chose to ignore the rest of my response, otherwise
>> you'd have no logical basis for your question.

> Are these not the words that you wrote?

I see you still chose to ignore the rest of my response, otherwise
you'd have no logical basis for your question.

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From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu                             30-Aug-99 07:45:19
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 12:22:13
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu

Marty writes:

>>>>>
 
>>>> You have some emotional need to repost material without adding anything
>>>> new, Marty?
 
>>> You have some emotional need to address Brad Wardell directly when he's
not
>>> listening to you?
 
>> Who said I'm addressing Brad Wardell directly, Marty?

> You did, every time you said ", Brad" try reading what you write once in a
> while.

Incorrect.  I never called it direct.

By the way, Gerben recently replied directly to me, despite allegedly
having me in his kill file.

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From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               30-Aug-99 00:53:18
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 12:22:13
Subj: Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2

From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste)

On Sun, 29 Aug 1999 23:44:44 -0400, Brad Barclay recycled some holes into
the following pattern:

>"David H. McCoy" wrote:
>
>> What? I also left out Dan's statement claiming that OS/2 users made
>> PostRoad the number one email client. Surely, you didn't miss this? Now,
>> clearly, by this statement they are perceiving that they are "head of the
>> pack". Yet, they are bowing out.  This says to me that the OS/2 software
>> market and making a living are indeed, mutually exclusive.
>
>    How may E-Mail clients do you use?  Probably the same number as everyone
>else:  one.  And how much opportunity is there for upgrading the E-Mail
client?

I use Agent for my private email and Eudora for my work email. Qualcomm has
been steadily releasing new versions of Eudora for quite some time, with all
manner of improvements in the user interface and internal structure. For
instance, one of the recent releases of the WIN32 version implemented use of
threads, so that you could download messages without locking up the user
interface. (grumble damned Macintosh mumble grumble)

>The mail protocols, POP3 and SMTP have been stable for years, and certainly
>aren't changing.  There comes a time when there isn't any further you can
really
>go with a piece of software.

Perhaps so, but few email programs have hit that limit yet. Certainly none
that I've used. I can think of things I'd like added to every email program
I know of.

I like Agent a lot, but I can think of things I wish they'd add. (Not much
likelihood of it, though.)

>    No, developing OS/2 software and making a living is not mutually
exclusive.

Of course not. You develop OS/2 software in your spare time, and make a
living developing WIN32 software for pay. But no company seems to be able to
make a living by developing shrink-wrap OS/2 software for retail sale.

>With E-Mail software, you quickly run into a situation where the market is
>saturated.  As it is, in the OS/2 world there are quite a few actively
developed
>E-Mail program choices, so you reach market saturation quicker than you would
>with other types of products.  Indeed, Innoval was in a position where they
had
>two E-Mail products, which in market terms means you wind up competing with
>yourself.

Why drop both, then? Your argument suggests they should have dropped only
one of them.

>    I would also like to point out here that Dan's posting has stated that
their
>consulting business is doing quite well.  Seeing as how Innoval has long been 
a
>part of the OS/2 community, one can probably safely assume that they're
making
>money off OS/2 consulting.  If this is true, then they aren't leaving the
OS/2
>community - they're simply changing their focus (as Dan himself points out).
>Besides which, Innoval's products are still with us - and now they're free of
>charge (my only concern with this is that I hope that it doesn't affect other
>OS/2 ISV's which compete against these products and charge for their
competing
>product - OS/2 users now have some high-quality choices which are totally
free,
>and that can be very hard to compete against).
>
>Brad BARCLAY
>

Brad, I think you're trying just a bit too hard to rationalize this. This
isn't about email programs, this is about OS/2.

It has nothing to do with email programs topping out, it has to do with the
bottom falling out of the OS/2 app market.

The reason Innoval has saturated their market is because the market is tiny.
It doesn't take long to fill a thimble.

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
              -- Calvin

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From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net                            30-Aug-99 08:54:28
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 12:22:13
Subj: Microsoft hates Dolly!

From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens)

I came across this at the local Makro supermarket in Belgium. Posters 
and leaflet displays with the following message from Microsoft:

(translated from Dutch) "Copying is always wrong!"
and a picture of Dolly the cloned sheep.

I think this makes it clear what segment of the population Microsoft 
is aiming it's products at.
Motto: If you're stoopid, buy Microsoft.

Karel Jansens
jansens_at_ibm_dot_net
=======================================================
If we could have our cake _and_ eat it,
people would start whining about seconds.
=======================================================
(Please don't misunderstand me: I think pirating software is a 
nuisance).

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From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net                            30-Aug-99 08:54:28
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 12:22:13
Subj: Re: dont blame Gates for IBM not licensing Win32

From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens)

On Sun, 29 Aug 1999 18:51:00, Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> wrote:

> Karel Jansens wrote:
> > 
> > On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 21:20:24, Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > JM wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Kelly Robinson <ispy@groovyshow.com> wrote:
> > > > : IBM made Open32, which is a half-assed attempt at Win32 emulation
which
> > > > : failed.
> > > >
> > > > Wrong David, it's a half-assed attempt of supporting the Win32 API on
> > > > OS/2.  It's currently being used as the basis of the Odin-API project.
> > >          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > >
> > > On what basis do you make this claim?
> > >
> > > - Marty
> > 
> > I thought I read that on Timur's page (back in the days of
> > Win32-OS/2). They started out with the Open32 API's and added what had
> > been left out. Do I remember wrong?
> 
> It started out that way, but it is no longer the case.  (See branch above).

Yup. Saw it.
Better too, I guess. I never heard Open32 referred to as a masterpiece
(isn't it the main reason why may people hate SmartSuite?).

Karel Jansens
jansens_at_ibm_dot_net
=======================================================
If we could have our cake _and_ eat it,
people would start whining about seconds.
=======================================================

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From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net                            30-Aug-99 08:55:03
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 12:22:13
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [rhetorical]

From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens)

On Sun, 29 Aug 1999 23:59:23, tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen) 
wrote:

> Karel Jansens writes:
> 
> >>>> Trackballs tend to get slippery with skins oils.  I've grown quite
> >>>> accustomed to the TrackPoint used on ThinkPads.  Took a little getting
> >>>> accustomed to it, but I like it better than the touch pads.
> 
> >>> I deeply hate touchpads. The little eraserpoints are better, but I 
> >>> still lack tactile feedback: I like to go somewhere when I move the 
> >>> pointer on the screen, if you know what I mean.
> 
> >> No, I don't.  The mouse buttons still have tactile feedback.  The
> >> device that moves the pointer doesn't, on touchpads, track points,
> >> track balls, and mice.
> 
> > Oh. Well... it's just that the little eraser doesn't go anywhere when 
> > you push it.
> 
> Neither does a touch pad or a trackball (unless you're referring to
> its surface rather than its center).  The visual feedback of the mouse
> pointer moving should be sufficient.
> 
Somehow it's not for me. It's funny, but I really _need_ for some part
of my arm or hand to move, or I get completely confused. I tried one 
of those subnotebooks once that had like a large trackpoint-like 
device positioned next to the screen, sort of like a trackball that 
didn't roll. It was a complete disaster. I bought myself a second-hand
HP Omnibook 425 with the pop-out mouse and I'm perfectly happy with 
that one.

OK, not perfectly: it runs Windows 3.1 and Office from a ROM card. But
I've been talking to some guys about getting a decent OS to run off 
it.

> >>> I've been seriously contemplating forking out for a touch-screen 
> >>> monitor and sink that into my worktop, so that it would only protrude 
> >>> a couple of centimeters. Or maybe buy one of those lightpens; I worked
> >>> with one that had drivers for Warp and it had a pretty good 
> >>> resolution, good enough for serious graphics work (I tried tablets, 
> >>> but I loose hand-eye coordination very quickly).
> 
> >> I've seen touch screens in retail locations (the Muse at Tower Records,
> >> for example).  I find them to not work more often than they do work.
> >> And I dislike finger smears on monitor screens.
> 
> > I've had some pleasant experiences, but I agree on the finger smudges.
> > I'd probably use a pen.
> 
> A pen point does offer higher precision than a blunt fingertip.
> 
I tried out a 17" touch screen monitor at 1024x768 resolution and I 
was very happy. Until the salesguy told me the price...

> >>>>>> I also still use the Microsoft FORTRAN compiler when I need to create 
a
> >>>>>> 16-bit executable for somebody running DOS.  It has some bugs that
were
> >>>>>> reported, acknowledged as reproducible by the developers, but never
fixed,
> >>>>>> even after four years.  Microsoft has since discontinued development
of
> >>>>>> their FORTRAN compiler, referring customers to Digital (now Compaq)
> >>>>>> instead.
> 
> >>>>> Sorry, I try not to program, especially not in FORTRAN.
> 
> >>>> Still a good choice for number-crunching applications.  You really
> >>>> should look into the latest standard, namely Fortran 95, if your
> >>>> objections are due to lack of certain features; it may now have them
> >>>> (except no RECORD statement; derived types are handled with a TYPE
> >>>> statement, something that Fred Emmerich still hasn't learned).
> 
> >>> Dave, you don't get it: it's not the features, it's the talent. I've 
> >>> found out that I'm as good at programming as Bill Clinton is at 
> >>> celibacy.
> 
> >> So your remark wasn't specific to FORTRAN, despite the reference to it
> >> especially.
> 
> > No, I can safely say that I'm equally untalented in just about any 
> > programming language. I'm the sort of guy that can mess up a 
> > Logo-program.
> 
> To be at the mercy of other programmers!
> 
I tried.
Lordy, did I try!

I have now accepted that I'm just not good at it.

> >>>>>>> The rough I don't mind, it's the stupid that gets on my nerves.
> 
> >>>>>> And you're seeing plenty of it from the so-called "detractors".
> 
> >>>>> I'm not taking sides (Hah! as if that's going to be believed!), but 
> >>>>> here's a shortlist:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 1. Your opinions are only valid if they coincide with everyone else's.
> 
> >>>> Yes, they do seem to take that position rather frequently.
> 
> >>>>> 2. Fights from another geological era need to be continuously raked 
> >>>>> up.
> 
> >>>> Which "another geological era" are you referring to?
> 
> >>> Let's just say "a long time ago" then.
> 
> >> In a galaxy far away?
> 
> > Heh. Don't we all wish.
> 
> Now, let's not start speaking for "we all".
> 
All right, "some of us", then.


Karel Jansens
jansens_at_ibm_dot_net
=======================================================
If we could have our cake _and_ eat it,
people would start whining about seconds.
=======================================================

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From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net                            30-Aug-99 08:55:03
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 12:22:13
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens)

Brad,

I never called you a bigot. I used the example of you behaving as a 
"prejudiced bigot" to illustrate my point that you might inadvertently
give the wrong image of Stardock to some of the readers of this group.
I guess in hindsight I could just as well have written: "But if you 
should start painting yourself as a keen businessman, don't you think 
that would reflect in your business?", but that wouldn't have conveyed
the point I was trying to make as well, and besides, well... I was a 
little edgy at the time, what with you calling me a hippy and an 
extremist and such (which is rather amusing, in the light of other 
people - not on UseNet - calling me a conservative bigot. Shows you 
that we never are who we think we are, eh?).

So. if I gave you or anybody else the impression that I thought you 
were a bigot, I apologise. Deeply and humbly. I'm sorry, I shouldn't 
have said it in that manner.

OK?

I'll try to answer the rest of your post later, but I felt I needed to
get this of my chest first.

Karel Jansens
jansens_at_ibm_dot_net
=======================================================
If we could have our cake _and_ eat it,
people would start whining about seconds.
=======================================================

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         30-Aug-99 11:22:21
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 12:22:13
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [rhetorical]

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Karel Jansens writes:

>>>>>> Trackballs tend to get slippery with skins oils.  I've grown quite
>>>>>> accustomed to the TrackPoint used on ThinkPads.  Took a little getting
>>>>>> accustomed to it, but I like it better than the touch pads.

>>>>> I deeply hate touchpads. The little eraserpoints are better, but I 
>>>>> still lack tactile feedback: I like to go somewhere when I move the 
>>>>> pointer on the screen, if you know what I mean.

>>>> No, I don't.  The mouse buttons still have tactile feedback.  The
>>>> device that moves the pointer doesn't, on touchpads, track points,
>>>> track balls, and mice.

>>> Oh. Well... it's just that the little eraser doesn't go anywhere when 
>>> you push it.

>> Neither does a touch pad or a trackball (unless you're referring to
>> its surface rather than its center).  The visual feedback of the mouse
>> pointer moving should be sufficient.

> Somehow it's not for me. It's funny, but I really _need_ for some part
> of my arm or hand to move, or I get completely confused. I tried one 
> of those subnotebooks once that had like a large trackpoint-like 
> device positioned next to the screen, sort of like a trackball that 
> didn't roll. It was a complete disaster. I bought myself a second-hand
> HP Omnibook 425 with the pop-out mouse and I'm perfectly happy with 
> that one.

How long did you try it out?  I was skeptical of the TrackPoint before
I tried it, and even after using it for a while, still preferred a real
mouse, but with experience, I came to like it more and more.

> OK, not perfectly: it runs Windows 3.1 and Office from a ROM card. But
> I've been talking to some guys about getting a decent OS to run off 
> it.

Must load the system pretty quickly.  Also difficult to apply patches.

>>>>> I've been seriously contemplating forking out for a touch-screen 
>>>>> monitor and sink that into my worktop, so that it would only protrude 
>>>>> a couple of centimeters. Or maybe buy one of those lightpens; I worked
>>>>> with one that had drivers for Warp and it had a pretty good 
>>>>> resolution, good enough for serious graphics work (I tried tablets, 
>>>>> but I loose hand-eye coordination very quickly).

>>>> I've seen touch screens in retail locations (the Muse at Tower Records,
>>>> for example).  I find them to not work more often than they do work.
>>>> And I dislike finger smears on monitor screens.

>>> I've had some pleasant experiences, but I agree on the finger smudges.
>>> I'd probably use a pen.

>> A pen point does offer higher precision than a blunt fingertip.

> I tried out a 17" touch screen monitor at 1024x768 resolution and I 
> was very happy. Until the salesguy told me the price...

More than both arms and both legs?

>>>>>>>> I also still use the Microsoft FORTRAN compiler when I need to create 
a
>>>>>>>> 16-bit executable for somebody running DOS.  It has some bugs that
were
>>>>>>>> reported, acknowledged as reproducible by the developers, but never
fixed,
>>>>>>>> even after four years.  Microsoft has since discontinued development
of
>>>>>>>> their FORTRAN compiler, referring customers to Digital (now Compaq)
>>>>>>>> instead.

>>>>>>> Sorry, I try not to program, especially not in FORTRAN.

>>>>>> Still a good choice for number-crunching applications.  You really
>>>>>> should look into the latest standard, namely Fortran 95, if your
>>>>>> objections are due to lack of certain features; it may now have them
>>>>>> (except no RECORD statement; derived types are handled with a TYPE
>>>>>> statement, something that Fred Emmerich still hasn't learned).

>>>>> Dave, you don't get it: it's not the features, it's the talent. I've 
>>>>> found out that I'm as good at programming as Bill Clinton is at 
>>>>> celibacy.

>>>> So your remark wasn't specific to FORTRAN, despite the reference to it
>>>> especially.

>>> No, I can safely say that I'm equally untalented in just about any 
>>> programming language. I'm the sort of guy that can mess up a 
>>> Logo-program.

>> To be at the mercy of other programmers!

> I tried.
> Lordy, did I try!

Fortran 90 has actually gotten easier to use.  The array syntax makes
it much more natural to write array expressions, compared to using
nested DO loops and indices.

> I have now accepted that I'm just not good at it.

Then again, if your job doesn't involve the need to write programs,
you can survive just fine.

>>>>>>>>> The rough I don't mind, it's the stupid that gets on my nerves.

>>>>>>>> And you're seeing plenty of it from the so-called "detractors".

>>>>>>> I'm not taking sides (Hah! as if that's going to be believed!), but 
>>>>>>> here's a shortlist:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. Your opinions are only valid if they coincide with everyone else's.

>>>>>> Yes, they do seem to take that position rather frequently.

>>>>>>> 2. Fights from another geological era need to be continuously raked 
>>>>>>> up.

>>>>>> Which "another geological era" are you referring to?

>>>>> Let's just say "a long time ago" then.

>>>> In a galaxy far away?

>>> Heh. Don't we all wish.

>> Now, let's not start speaking for "we all".

> All right, "some of us", then.

Luke, Han, Darth, Obe...

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From: ericb@pobox.com                                   30-Aug-99 07:47:21
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 12:22:13
Subj: Re: Microsoft hates Dolly!

From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)

In article <L9BY9tzSDwrQ-pn2-mbPTTlQP4ur4@localhost>,
jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens) wrote:

> I came across this at the local Makro supermarket in Belgium. Posters 
> and leaflet displays with the following message from Microsoft:
> 
> (translated from Dutch) "Copying is always wrong!"
> and a picture of Dolly the cloned sheep.
> 
> I think this makes it clear what segment of the population Microsoft 
> is aiming it's products at.
> Motto: If you're stoopid, buy Microsoft.

Interesting, but not as amusing as their reported translation of "Where do
you want to go today?" into Japanese... supposedly it came out, "If you
don't know where you want to go today, we'll make sure you get taken."

-- 
Eric Bennett ( http://www.pobox.com/~ericb/ ) 
Cornell University / Chemistry & Chemical Biology

If you surveyed a hundred typical middle-aged Americans, I bet you'd
find that only two of them could tell you their blood type, but every
last one of them would know the theme song from The Beverly
Hillbillies.  -Dave Barry

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: rerbert@wxs.nl                                    30-Aug-99 13:59:03
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 12:22:13
Subj: Re: vmware mistake

From: rerbert@wxs.nl (Gerben Bergman)

Pondering why dimethyl-Silane is a gas and phenyl-Silane is a solid, I
overheard Mike Ruskai mention "Re: vmware mistake":

| >Since when have David's, AKA Kelly Robinson's, intentions been
| >well-meaning???
| 
| Am I correct in assuming that you mean Kelly Robinson is an alias for
| David H. McCoy? If so, that would explain a lot.

No, he's referring to "David P. Cole", a.k.a. "Infinity Rising".

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: forkd4nisse@dtek.chalmers.se                      30-Aug-99 15:01:11
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 14:26:21
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: forkd4nisse@dtek.chalmers.se (Martin Nisshagen)

Brad Barclay [via Internet Direct - http://www.mydirect.com/] ->
comp.os.os2.misc:

Æ > My sentiments, too, except that I've been listening all along for the
words
Æ > "Open Source" which I haven't heard.
Æ 
Æ     Why - are POP and SMTP suddenly going to change?  These protocols have
been
Æ around for years and are quite stable.

No, but I think they will in some cases perhaps be replaced by never protocols
like for example IMAP, which almost every email client seems to target and who
has many advantages, especially in non ISP cases of servers (and no - IMAP is
not any Microsoft only standard if anyone thinks so).

I agree with Donnelly. Open source would be the best thing in this case.

All this said I agree that for most people (including myself) POP3 will do
fine for many years to come.
 
I also can't see why some people is trying to blame Tim for this. He is only
_reporting_ the news, not the one who has stopped the development of them.

Best regards,

m a r t i n | n

-- 
Martin Nisshagen                  PGP 6.0: 0x45D423AC         K R A F T W E R
K
CS/CE, Chalmers, Sweden           ICQ UIN: 689662             2x 300A @ 450
MHz
d4nisse-at-dtek-chalmers-se       http://go.to/martin_n       http://zap.to/kw

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From: pasnak@cableregina.com                            30-Aug-99 13:17:07
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:26
Subj: Re: Poll at Everything for OS/2

From: Linegod <pasnak@cableregina.com>

In article <380300cb.385206923@news-server>,
  sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste) wrote:
> On 29 Aug 1999 21:22:08 -0800, J.P. Pasnak recycled some holes into
the
> following pattern:
>
> >I've created a 'must have' poll at
> >http://members.xoom.com/Warped/every/everything.html  .  This first
> >one is a trial run, and depending on reponse/usability , I may go
with
> >a weekly/bi-monthly poll, with archived responses.
> >
> >Let me know what you think.
> >
> >J.P. Pasnak
> >Warped Systems
> >******************
> >http://members.xoom.com/Warped/every/everything.html
> >http://members.xoom.com/Warped/every/dirmap.html
> >http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/warpedusers
> >*******************
>
> I'm glad to see that I'm not starring in THIS poll... (But I voted for
the
> coconuts, just to be polite)
>
> --------
> Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
> Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

Just to put you at ease, I'll never run a 'Kook of the Month' poll :-).
 I may run a 'Who's the Best Brad' poll, so you may end up in there ;-)

J.P. Pasnak

"The pumps don't work, cuz the vandals took the handles"


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

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From: christian.hennecke@ruhr-uni-boch...               30-Aug-99 15:30:01
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:26
Subj: Re: Warp4-and-HPFS386

Message sender: christian.hennecke@ruhr-uni-bochum.de

From: Christian Hennecke <christian.hennecke@ruhr-uni-bochum.de>

Steven C. Den Beste schrieb:

> I think you may have gotten that statistic slightly wrong. 90% of Windows
> users which steal 100% of their software? Not likely...
> 
> I think maybe it's more like 90% of Windows users who steal >0% of their
> software. That's a much different thing. And come to think of it, I bet
> that's equally true for OS/2 users.

Maybe 90% is a bit much. However, I was talking about homeusers and from
what I KNOW most of them haven't paid for their copy of MS Office, Adobe
Photoshop and the like. That's a plain fact!

> Let's try to keep the hateful hyperbole under control, shall we?

Well, I am NOT one of those diehard "there is only one OS that's good
and that's the one I use and anyone who is using another should drop
dead" people :-). I just can't stand it seeing this person accusing the
whole "OS/2 community" because of Mr. Anonymous' posting with ignoring
the fact that the Windows world is much worse.

Christian Hennecke
-- 
Keep passing the open windows! ("The Hotel New Hampshire", John Irving)

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From: bwardell@mw.mediaone.net                          30-Aug-99 13:56:21
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:26
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: "Brad Wardell" <bwardell@mw.mediaone.net>

<jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens)> wrote in message
news:L9BY9tzSDwrQ-pn2-MsB4QVbigQMZ@localhost...
> Brad,
>
> I never called you a bigot. I used the example of you behaving as a
> "prejudiced bigot" to illustrate my point that you might inadvertently
> give the wrong image of Stardock to some of the readers of this group.
> I guess in hindsight I could just as well have written: "But if you
> should start painting yourself as a keen businessman, don't you think
> that would reflect in your business?", but that wouldn't have conveyed
> the point I was trying to make as well, and besides, well... I was a
> little edgy at the time, what with you calling me a hippy and an
> extremist and such (which is rather amusing, in the light of other
> people - not on UseNet - calling me a conservative bigot. Shows you
> that we never are who we think we are, eh?).
>
> So. if I gave you or anybody else the impression that I thought you
> were a bigot, I apologise. Deeply and humbly. I'm sorry, I shouldn't
> have said it in that manner.
>
> OK?
>

Okay, I consider the matter closed then.

> I'll try to answer the rest of your post later, but I felt I needed to
> get this of my chest first.
>

Hmm, well that is the central basis of the discussion at this point.  Not
much left to discuss. <grin>

Brad

> Karel Jansens
> jansens_at_ibm_dot_net
> =======================================================
> If we could have our cake _and_ eat it,
> people would start whining about seconds.
> =======================================================


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From: osric@apk.net                                     30-Aug-99 10:25:08
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:26
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: Tarquelne <osric@apk.net>

>Sorry to disagree with you, but in fact there's a lot you can do with a mail
>program.
>
>How about more intelligent filtering? (Agent lets me use regular expressions
>on the subject line, but I'd like to be able to filter on the contents of a
>message, so that anything which contains the phrase "MLM" goes straight into
>the trash bin.) Automated responses to messages? ("I'm on vacation right
>now, but I'll get back to you in two weeks.")

Can't several e-mailers do that already?

>Better folder manipulation?

It's probably always possible to do something "better."

>
>Searching of folders using complex search rules?

Can do that.

>Easy connection to multiple servers?

Seems easy enough. . . see "better."

>Oh, I can think of many things. The interface with the mail server may be
>mature, but there's much that can be done with the interface with the human
>user.

I'm not trying to be snide, but what e-mailer are you using?
                                            Tarquelne
                                       <osric@apk.net>
        I know how God can make a rock so big He can't move it.
                                  ************************
Use the address above to reply - not the anti-spam "Reply-to" address
___________________________________________________________
"Television is an invention that permits you to be entertained
 in your living room by people you wouldn't have in your home."--David Frost   
                                                                               
                                   


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From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               30-Aug-99 10:28:24
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Bennie Nelson wrote:
> 
> Marty wrote:
> >
> > rj friedman wrote:
> > >
> > > On Mon, 23 Aug 1999 23:27:02, Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Right - but in your post of your credentials, there was no
> > > > mention of a course in logic. Since a course in logic was
> > > > the topic, and since you didn't mention a course in logic, I
> > > > don't see how you can blame me for commenting that  I did
> > > > not see a course in logic mentioned.
> > >
> > > The topic was your statement that I needed a course in logic without
> > > knowing my educational background...
> > >
> > > That was not the topic of my statement Marty. Your problem
> > > is that you don't listen to what people tell you - instead
> > > you decide what they told you and then get mad at them for
> > > something they never said.
> >
> > So I'm supposed to blindly accept what others tell me and not interpret
> > it for myself?
> 
> STOP the PRESSES!!!   (Key presses, that is <g>}.
> 
> So many words have been posted about my analogies, and Marty has
> brought the thread back around to one of the major points I was
> trying to make.
> 
> I was told that because Dave Tholen had so many detractors, there
> must be something wrong with Dave.  My reply was meant to convey
> the point that Marty has just made.  I don't arrive at a conclusion
> blindly.  I don't care how many people support a position: I want
> to think it through, and examine the evidence for myself, so that
> I can arrive at a reasoned conclusion.

I haven't arrived at a conclusion blindly, either.  I've experienced
Dave first hand, and would rather have not done so.  Perhaps I should
have taken everyone else's advice...

[or perhaps I shouldn't have been so illogical, right Dave?]

- Marty

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From: l_luciano@da.mob                                  30-Aug-99 14:37:13
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: l_luciano@da.mob (Stan Goodman)

On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 13:01:22, forkd4nisse@dtek.chalmers.se (Martin 
Nisshagen) wrote:

> Brad Barclay [via Internet Direct - http://www.mydirect.com/] ->
> comp.os.os2.misc:
> 
> Æ > My sentiments, too, except that I've been listening all along for the
words
> Æ > "Open Source" which I haven't heard.
> Æ 
> Æ     Why - are POP and SMTP suddenly going to change?  These protocols have 
been
> Æ around for years and are quite stable.
> 
> No, but I think they will in some cases perhaps be replaced by never
protocols
> like for example IMAP, which almost every email client seems to target and
who
> has many advantages, especially in non ISP cases of servers (and no - IMAP
is
> not any Microsoft only standard if anyone thinks so).
> 
> I agree with Donnelly. Open source would be the best thing in this case.
> 
> All this said I agree that for most people (including myself) POP3 will do
> fine for many years to come.
>  
> I also can't see why some people is trying to blame Tim for this. He is only
> _reporting_ the news, not the one who has stopped the development of them.

Aw, c'mon Martin. Impaling the messenger is a time-honored response to bad 
news.

-------------
Stan Goodman
Qiryat Tiv'on
Israel

Spammers are getting smarter; email sent to l_luciano@da.mob will not reach
me. Sorry.
Send E-mail to: domain: hashkedim dot com, username: stan.



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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         30-Aug-99 14:44:15
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Marty writes [to Bennie Nelson]:

> I haven't arrived at a conclusion blindly, either.

You did arrive at a conclusion illogically, however.

> I've experienced Dave first hand,

Including my logical arguments.

> and would rather have not done so.

Because it was too embarrassing to have your illogic exposed.

> Perhaps I should have taken everyone else's advice...

What has been the advice of "everyone", Marty?

> [or perhaps I shouldn't have been so illogical, right Dave?]

Right, Marty.

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         30-Aug-99 14:42:19
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Brad Wardell writes:

> Not much left to discuss. <grin>

Actually, there is plenty to discuss, such as your lie about 1600
postings in other newsgroups from people allegedly calling me a kook.

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From: esther@bitranch.com                               30-Aug-99 14:56:08
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: Attitudes and apologies 

From: esther@bitranch.com (Esther Schindler)

Here's what I think is the important point, guido. All these debates 
we have are on public view. If OS/2 users act like jerks, *for 
whatever reason,* the lurkers can come to the conclusion that OS/2 
users are jerks. I don't want to give anyone a reason to reach that 
decision. If the non-OS/2 users want to act like jerks, that's their 
problem... and the community's calm, reasoned, logical, 
more-in-sorrow-than-in-anger attitude will enable the detractors to 
appear as what they are. (I hasten to point out that not every 
non-OS/2 user is a detractor, much less a jerk.)

Quite often, I write for the lurkers. In particular, I write for the 
people who aren't yet using OS/2, and who I hope will give it a shot. 
Despite IBM, despite a lot of business individuals' incompetance and 
online behavior that often deserves a spanking... OS/2 remains the 
best operating system that I've ever used, and I like to share my 
enthusiasm for it. Why chase away those people's tentative 
explorations by adding to the emotional baggage, by putting your 
attention on "who's the bigger jerk" instead of saying, "hey cool, did
you know that OS/2 can do _this_?"

When a would-be OS/2 user ventures into the .advocacy newsgroup to 
learn more about the OS, to find out "I'm sick of what I'm using... so
why should I consider this alternative?" I want them to find good 
reasons to check it out. I don't want them to see people arguing about
what Brad said three years ago or accusing Kelly of being wrong 
(*after* he apologized!).

What are the non-OS/2 users doing here? Frankly, I don't care what 
their reasons may be. I know how the OS/2 community can (pick one:) 
{help | take advantage of} them, and I'm disappointed that fewer OS/2 
users do so.

On the "help" side... well, someone who is calm and content with his 
product choice has no reason to harass other people for making a 
different choice. Ford owners rarely go to Honda newsgroups to say 
NyahNyah; they have better things to do. If someone show up here, 
ostensibly to criticize OS/2 or OS/2 users, then part of the reason 
may be _because they aren't quite so certain of their own choice_ and 
need to find a way to justify it. If they're uncertain, at some level 
they're willing to be convinced that this option has merit. If we 
rationally present the OS/2 advantages (and, being fair, acknowledging
that it, too, isn't 100% perfect), it's possible (if unlikely) that 
we'll convince those alleged detractors to reconsider their opinions 
(or at least become more confident in the rightness of their choice, 
and go away).

But in the meantime, the OS/2 community can use those messages as an 
excuse for exposition to the lurking community. If the detractor says,
obnoxiously or otherwise, "yeah, yeah, but OS/2 doesn't have any 
applications!" you can reply (and I _have_ replied, over the years), 
"I understand why you might think so; it's a common misconception. 
However, here's a few URLs listing the thousands of native OS/2 
applications, and here's a site that reviews several of them, and..." 
Let the detractor give you the "straight line" to joyously give folks 
the straight dope. When the criticism is valid ("yeah, but you don't 
have a native flowchart application, after all these years"), 
acknowledge it ("unfortunately, that's true") and _move on_. Don't 
belabor the point, don't justify or deny.

pcguido, you might think of me as a too-sweet pollyanna, but the 
bottom line is that I've caused a lot of people to switch to (and stay
with) OS/2. I've done it in person, at Team OS/2 CompUSA demos, and 
I've done it in print, by writing about the platform _at least_ once a
month for the last 7 years. Your dedication to the platform is no less
than mine; I'm sure that you, too, could have equal successes if you 
only focused on the positive.

My free advice is worth the same as yours, naturally. If you think 
that your advice to "go elsewhere" (simply because I think someone 
should behave like a grownup) is worth giving, then so is my advice to
Tim to accept an apology.

--Esther

On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 06:20:43, pcguido@ibm.net wrote:

| In <LoEFmgJJ9ecw-pn2-Vky9dYUpVUE7@agave.bitranch.com>, esther@bitranch.com
(Esther Schindler) writes:
| |When live people have a conversation, they don't usually repeat each
| |others' words. They respond to them.
| 
| cooa is not live, nor is it a conversation between just two people...
| 
| |
| |	Esther: What did you think of the movie?
| |
| |	Guido: I liked it.
| |
| |Not --
| |
| |	Esther: What did you think of the movie?
| |
| |	Guido: You asked me what I thought of the movie. I liked it.
| 
| BTW, in public speaking, this is _exactly_ what you _are_ supposed to do.
| 
| |I never saw a rule book that said it was required that one quote back
| |an entire message. But, if your memory of your own messages is that
| |short, and/or your newsreader is so limited, I'll be glad to include
| |the original text of your message as a reminder.
| 
| I didn't write a word about quoting an entire message; but, who would
| ever know when you delete _all_ context? Is that your intention? Hope not.
| 
| |I see that I was in error about my recollection about our original
| |"meeting site." I apologize. I believe I temporarily switched you, in
| |my head, with RJ Friedman, whom I think I *did* meet on Fidonet. I'm
| |sorry for the inaccuracy.
| |
| |Perhaps you think that saying, "I'm curious.  Have you ever
| |considered, just for the novelty value, getting something *right* for
| |once? Here's what that page says, in the VERY FIRST
| |FUCKING ITEM ON THE LIST:..." is "not at all mean," but I find it
| |confrontative, to say the least.
| |
| |--Esther
| 
| What I think is that you might want to follow an 'exchange' before
| upbraiding the wrong guy! Kelly Robinson is not only as lame as
| they come, he was being inaccurate to the point of deliberate
| untruthfulness - and plenty 'confrontative' himself...
| 
| Face it Esther, the Ms Manners routine has very little bearing
| on the course of events. If you want to act that way yourself, in
| your own exchanges, more power to you; but, giving free advice
| to those who do not ask for it is not always the polite thing to do.
| 
| I read another of your posts in which you explained your theories
| on same; and, I really don't disagree with your expression of how
| _you_ deal with these issues. Pushing it at others, however, seems
| more that a little bit condesending.
| 
| Trust me, I am not advocating general incivility, I find that just
| as offensive as you do. But (and this is a big one), I find the
| behavior of stooges like Robinson _equally_ offensive, and no more
| polite to boot!
| 
| I for one, figure that Tim must have meant what he wrote,
| exactly as he wrote it; else, why the capitals/shouting et al?
| If Tim's behaviour (or mine for that matter) does not agree with
| you, maybe you might want to try comp.os.os2.moderated? I hear
| everybody is _very_ polite there; but, it bores me too much to
| visit very often... :)
| 
| regards,
| 
| Guido
| 
| |On Sun, 29 Aug 1999 20:20:18, pcguido@ibm.net wrote:
| |
| || Esther,
| ||
| || This time your response lacks _all_ context, as you handily deleted
| || my _entire_ post.
| ||
| || How can you actually deem this a reply; or, for that matter, any
| || form of 'conversation' ?
| ||
| || That was the _entire_ point of my post, you know...
| ||
| || As for Tim's response to Kelly, it was _absolutely_ accurate,
| || to the point, and (IMHO) not at all mean.
| ||
| || Your Ms Manners reply however, including the deletion of _all_
| || context, was not at all polite. You may think that expressing
| || your opinions in such a rude 'mommy knows best' manner is somehow
| || professional; but, I suggest you should reserve such treatment
| || for your family - they have to put up with it, your peers do not.
| ||
| || BTW, while it is true we have disagreed on the subject of how to
| || respond to the 'stooges'; I have _never_ used FIDONET and that
| || is most definitely _not_ where we met. We met right here on cooa.
| ||
| || And, you stil owe Tim that apology...
| ||
| || Regards,
| ||
| || Guido
| |
| 
| 
| 


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From: esther@bitranch.com                               30-Aug-99 15:04:03
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: vmware mistake

From: esther@bitranch.com (Esther Schindler)

On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 03:46:38, JM <malstrom@wilde.oit.umass.edu> wrote:
| Gee, when I stayed relentlessly upbeat about Win32-os/2 you got on my case.

Yup, I did. There's a difference between "seeing only what you want to
see" and maintaining an upbeat attitude. "That's not lipstick on my 
husband's collar," "Gerstner meant _primarily_ corporate users when he
said that, he wasn't intending to cut out the SOHO user," and "that 
salesman wouldn't lie to me" are all examples of the mistakes people 
make when they want to see a situation as other than it is.

I'm a great believer in observing reality, whether or not I like the 
way it looks. _Then_ I can choose to give more credit to the positive.

| Since when has David's, AKA Kelly Robinson's intentions been well meaning??

Since when are you a mind-reader? I don't claim to know the intentions
of any of the participants here (other than my own). The only thing by
which I can judge are the participants' words... and, in some cases, 
their actions.

--Esther

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From: esther@bitranch.com                               30-Aug-99 15:05:13
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: vmware mistake

From: esther@bitranch.com (Esther Schindler)

On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 01:14:45, tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith) wrote:
|  I'm flaming him
| because in that apology, he said ...

But why flame at all?

Why not simply correct the error? Why give someone the satisfaction of
raising your ire?

--Esther


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From: esther@bitranch.com                               30-Aug-99 15:08:21
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: esther@bitranch.com (Esther Schindler)

On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 05:37:44, sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den 
Beste) wrote:

| Oh, I can think of many things. The interface with the mail server may be
| mature, but there's much that can be done with the interface with the human
| user.

That may be true, Steven, but as I'm sure you know, most people don't 
do _anything_ with the user interface other than read-and-reply. I'm 
quite sure that a high percentage of Internet users have never even 
created a new message folder.

I still think it's a class act. It makes the product available to 
those who want to use it.

--Esther 


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From: esther@bitranch.com                               30-Aug-99 15:13:08
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: esther@bitranch.com (Esther Schindler)

Stephen,

I'm surprised that you encountered such ignorance of Innoval's 
products. Dan Porter did indeed visit the Phoenix OS/2 Society. I know
he was a guest at user groups in southern California and northern 
California, and was (is?) a member of a NY-area OS/2 user group. I 
consider the product line reasonably well known (though not quite as 
much as others).

I've had several conversations with Dan, over the years, and I know 
personally how much he cared about the OS/2 platform and about serving
its users. I'm quite sure that posting that message caused him a great
deal of pain; like other OS/2 ISVs whose desire to pay the mortgage 
forced them to consider alternatives, it can't have been an easy 
decision. I'm sure that it's not a decision he ever wanted to reach.

Perhaps you might show a little empathy for his situation.

--Esther
  who had to turn away from her 100%-OS/2 business, too

On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 02:27:59, Stephen Eickhoff <"operagost"@e-mail.com
(remove the - )> wrote:

| 
| 
| Tim Martin wrote:
| 
| > I have just received the following from Dan Porter of
| > Innoval Systems Solutions, Inc.:
| >
| > From: Dan Porter  6:21 PM (PST), August 28, 1999
| > Subject: InnoVal and OS/2
| > To: os2guy@warpcity.com
| >
| > Effective immediately, InnoVal Systems Solutions, Inc. is withdrawing
| > the following products from marketing and support.
| >
| > Post Road Mailer for OS/2
| > J Street Mailer for Java
| > Web Willy Watch for OS/2
| 
| Join the club of plane-jumpers!
| 
| >
| > Anyone may download free copies of these products from our online store
| > at http://stores.yahoo.com/innoval. In addition, anyone may freely
| > distribute executable copies of the software through online software
| > repositories and websites. You are encouraged to do so because we will
| > only be able to keep them in our online store for a limited time. If you
| 
| Ooh, I can have a product that will be obsolete in months for FREE!
| 
| > For me, personally, this is a sad day. Our company tried to hang in as
| > long as possible with OS/2. OS/2 is still my favorite platform and OS/2
| > customers are the best customers our company ever had. I have made many
| > good friends through my associations with all of you. You ll still see
| > me popping in at OS/2 users group meetings throughout the country when
| > my travels coincide with a meeting.
| 
| I certainly can't speak for everyone, but I'd rather not see ya.
| 
| What are you going to do, convince us to move to Windows so we can use your
| products?
| 
| >
| > Our company continues to do very well. The consulting side of the
| > business has always been strong. The most exciting area of business,
| > however, is Iceptur. Iceptur is our new Internet filtering software for
| > the Windows 95/98/NT platform. Despite the fact that there are over two
| > hundred competitors in this market niche, we are experiencing phenomenal
| 
| >
| > success. This is partly because of the unique technology we developed
| > and partly because there is a strong demand for high quality Internet
| > filtering solutions (release 2.0 will hit the streets by September 5th).
| 
| I doubt it. Everyone I speak to has never heard of your company. And I was
| plugging Web Willy, it was a product that was actually more than just a
| pattern matcher.
| However, it's unlikely you'll be able to pull away much market from Cyber
| Patrol, much less Microsoft when they enter the market any day now.
| 
| >
| > We have entered into a number of strategic alliances with several
| > companies to market Iceptur and license the underlying technology for
| > use in other products.
| >
| 
| Oh, I guess the terms of the contract was to ditch OS/2.
| Hope one of them is MS, if you intend to survive.
| 
| >
| > I need, now, to focus all of InnoVal s resources on Iceptur and our
| > consulting business. I tried, during the past year, to juggle resources
| > but in doing so was not doing the right kind of job for our customers,
| > the OS/2 community at-large, InnoVal s employees, or InnoVal s owners.
| > You made the Post Road Mailer into the number one email client for OS/2.
| >
| 
| When was that? Nobody I know uses it. It's between PMMail and Netscape.
| 
| >
| > You worked with us on J Street Mailer as we tried to negotiate a
| > platform independent course with Java. You have my thanks and the thanks
| >
| > of everyone at InnoVal.
| 
| Sorry you failed. Better luck with  0.5% of that crowded niche you were
| talking about.
| 
| >
| > We are moving on to bigger things, but not better. OS/2 was better and
| > (oh, how I wish) it could have been big.
| 
| Lip service.
| 


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From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               30-Aug-99 11:24:00
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu wrote:
> 
> Marty writes:
> 
> >>>>>>>> Yes [...] the interpretation is logical, Brad.
> 
> >>>>>> So much for your alleged restoration of context, Marty.
> 
> >>>>> Are those not your words, Dave?
> 
> >>>> They're the dictionary's words, Marty.
> 
> >>> Are these not the words that you wrote?
> 
> >> I see you chose to ignore the rest of my response, otherwise
> >> you'd have no logical basis for your question.
> 
> > Are these not the words that you wrote?
> 
> I see you still chose to ignore the rest of my response, otherwise
> you'd have no logical basis for your question.

Are these not the words that you wrote?  I see you've still failed to
answer the question.

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From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               30-Aug-99 11:26:21
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: 1.66 hours left [no text]

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Dave Tholen wrote:
> 
> Marty writes:
> 
> >
> 
> The series of "no text" countdown messages is from one of the people
> Brad Wardell considers "reasonable".

Is it more reasonable to waste space and bandwidth responding to such a
thick-skulled arrogant individual?

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From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               30-Aug-99 11:27:17
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [time's up] [context guard]

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

tholenAntiSpam@ifa.hawaii.edu wrote:
> 
> Marty writes:
> 
> >>>>>>>> You just indicated [...] responses to me [...] will be unimportant.
> >>>>>>>> I agree.
> 
> >>>>>> Posting another unimportant response, eh Marty?
> 
> >>>>> How ironic.
> 
> >>>> On what basis do you make that claim, Marty?
> 
> >>> See what I mean?
> 
> >> I see you didn't answer my question.  It figures.
> 
> > See what I mean?
> 
> I see you still didn't answer my question.  It figures.

See what I mean?

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From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               30-Aug-99 11:29:21
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu wrote:
> 
> Marty writes:
> 
> >>>>>
> 
> >>>> You have some emotional need to repost material without adding anything
> >>>> new, Marty?
> 
> >>> You have some emotional need to address Brad Wardell directly when he's
not
> >>> listening to you?
> 
> >> Who said I'm addressing Brad Wardell directly, Marty?
> 
> > You did, every time you said ", Brad" try reading what you write once in a
> > while.
> 
> Incorrect.  I never called it direct.

It doesn't matter what you call it Dave.  It is direct if you address
him directly.

> By the way, Gerben recently replied directly to me, despite allegedly
> having me in his kill file.

Therefore Brad will also?  Illogical.

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From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               30-Aug-99 11:30:22
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu wrote:
> 
> Marty writes:
> 
> >>>>>>>> You're the one arguing with [...] a jerk, Brad.
> 
> >>>>>> So much for your alleged restoration of context, Marty.  Hypocrite.
> 
> >>>>> Are these not your words Dave?
> 
> >>>> They're the dictionary's words, Marty.
> 
> >>> Are those not the words you wrote, Dave?
> 
> >> I see you chose to ignore the rest of my response, otherwise you
> >> would have no logical basis for your question.
> 
> > Are those not the words you wrote, Dave?
> 
> I see you still chose to ignore the rest of my response, otherwise you
> would have no logical basis for your question.

Are these not the words that you wrote?  I see you've still failed to
answer the question.

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From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               30-Aug-99 11:33:07
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

tholenAntiSpam@ifa.hawaii.edu wrote:
> 
> Marty writes:
> 
> >>>>>> Karel Jansens writes [to Brad Wardell]:
> 
> >>>>>>> Just one more thing: you _do_ realise that to all the participants
and
> >>>>>>> lurkers in this group you are representing Stardock Systems, don't
> >>>>>>> you? I mean, I can make a complete arse of myself and Dave Tholen
can
> >>>>>>> be as obnoxious as he wants to be, neither of us are going to lose
> >>>>>>> even a cent in that. But if you should start painting yourself as a
> >>>>>>> prejudiced bigot, don't you think that would reflect in your
business?
> 
> >>>>>> I've already been told privately that Stardock products would be
> >>>>>> avoided because of Brad's behavior here.  One person even told me
> >>>>>> that he emailed that statement directly to Brad.  Brad just treated
> >>>>>> him the same way he treats me.
> 
> >>>>> His loss, not Brad's.
> 
> >>>> Incorrect.
> 
> >>> How do you know Dave?
> 
> >> Because I was told.
> 
> > And I was told not by someone in a high position at Stardock.
> 
> Someone who is a known liar, is known to have a short memory, and has
> a motive to deny the evidence.

Like you perhaps?  I've seen no evidence of this from Brad.

> > Hmm... who should I believe?
> 
> Is it logical to believe someone who is known to lie, Marty?
> 
> >>> I didn't know you were Brad's accountant.
> 
> >> Illogic, given that I don't need to be Brad's accountant to know that
> >> Stardock has lost business as a result of Brad's behavior here.
> 
> > Bottom line -- Is it hurting Stardock?
> 
> At some level.

Hurting them implies they are noticing it.  If they noticed it, they
would have dealt with it because it would be harming their business.  It
is not.
 
> > Brad's answer is a resounding No.
> 
> Brad is a known liar.

How ironic.
 
> >>>>>>> I won't even answer to the rest of that paragraph. Anybody who
thinks
> >>>>>>> that mob justice is an example of "societal norms" is way beyond me
> >>>>>>> anyway.
> 
> >>>>>> Bravo!  But it's a wonderful example of Brad's brand of reasoning.
> 
> >>>>> Yeah.  Realism.
> 
> >>>> More like illogic.
> 
> >>> More like realism.
> 
> >> More like illogic.
> 
> > More like realism.
> 
> More like illogic.

More like a college professor acting like a 3 year old.  Why am I not
surprised?

More like realism.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         30-Aug-99 15:29:13
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: Attitudes and apologies 

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Esther Schindler writes [to Guido]:

> Here's what I think is the important point, guido. All these debates 
> we have are on public view. If OS/2 users act like jerks, *for 
> whatever reason,* the lurkers can come to the conclusion that OS/2 
> users are jerks.

Not in general, logically.  Logically, they should only conclude that
those who act like jerks are jerks.

> I don't want to give anyone a reason to reach that decision.

Then perhaps you should talk to Brad Wardell.  His recent claim that
there are 1600 postings in other newgroups from people claiming I'm
a kook is so blatantly wrong and poorly researched that Brad comes
off looking like a complete idiot.

   o  Brad never bothered to page through all the screens,
      because if he had, he would have eventually discovered
      that the 1600 figure is an overestimate, and the exact
      number of matches turned out to be 361.

   o  Brad claimed that those postings were in newsgroups
      other than this one, but in fact it found matches to
      articles cross-posted to this newsgroup and others,
      so in reality his search criteria failed to exclude
      this newsgroup.  They only succeeded in suppressing
      posting made to *only* this newsgroup.

   o  Brad tried to make it sound as though there were
      hundreds of people in other newsgroups calling me a
      kook, but in reality, 172 of those 361 postings were
      made by a single person, namely Jason S.  Numerous
      others were made by a handful of the usual antagonists,
      like Joe Malloy, Edwin Thorne, and Jeremey Reimer.
      And many of those articles were written *by me* as
      responses to them.

   o  Brad claimed that the names of hundreds of voters were
      listed, but they were not.  The only voters who were
      named number 13, including Jason S., Joe Malloy, Jeff
      Glatt, David Sutherland, and Jim Stuyck, who are some
      of the usual antagonists.  A rather far cry from
      "hundreds".

Brad Wardell is an OS/2 user, and he's acting like a jerk.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: letoured@sover.net                                30-Aug-99 08:52:16
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: letoured@sover.net

>   I am currently looking for a new mail program to replace
>UltiMail, and I am testing PMMail, JStreet, and now Post Road, and the
>only program that even comes close to my acceptability, is JStreet,
>however, it's memory footprint is huge, and that may preclude me from
>using it, and besides, I would like to actually support native OS/2
>software.

Then get MR2.


_____________
Ed Letourneau <letoured@sover.net>

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               30-Aug-99 11:36:03
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu wrote:
> 
> Marty writes:
> 
> >>> [some more stupid crap to Brad Wardell]
> 
> >> What's allegedly stupid about it, Marty?
> 
> >>> Who are you talking to Dave?
> 
> >> The readers, Marty.
> 
> > Are the readers named Brad?
> 
> Irrelevant, Marty.  The readers didn't make the erroneous claims.

Irrelevant Dave.  You're addressing Brad directly.  I see you chose to
ignore the rest of the post.  Why am I not surprised?

Here is the context back for you in case you missed it:
> > Brad can only see what other people quote from you.

> > Still verbally masturbating, talking to your right hand?
> > You're gonna go blind.

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         30-Aug-99 15:31:25
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Marty writes:

>>>>>>>>>> Yes [...] the interpretation is logical, Brad.
 
>>>>>>>> So much for your alleged restoration of context, Marty.
 
>>>>>>> Are those not your words, Dave?
 
>>>>>> They're the dictionary's words, Marty.
 
>>>>> Are these not the words that you wrote?
 
>>>> I see you chose to ignore the rest of my response, otherwise
>>>> you'd have no logical basis for your question.
 
>>> Are these not the words that you wrote?
 
>> I see you still chose to ignore the rest of my response, otherwise
>> you'd have no logical basis for your question.

> Are these not the words that you wrote?

I see you still chose to ignore the rest of my response, otherwise
you'd have no logical basis for your question.

> I see you've still failed to answer the question.

Incorrect.  You failed to see my answer.

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         30-Aug-99 15:31:00
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: 1.66 hours left [no text]

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Marty writes:

>>>
 
>> The series of "no text" countdown messages is from one of the people
>> Brad Wardell considers "reasonable".

> Is it more reasonable to waste space and bandwidth responding to such a
> thick-skulled arrogant individual?

On what basis do you call it a waste of space and bandwidth to counter
Brad Wardell's lies?

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         30-Aug-99 15:32:10
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [time's up] [context guard]

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Marty writes:

>>>>>>>>>> You just indicated [...] responses to me [...] will be unimportant.
>>>>>>>>>> I agree.
 
>>>>>>>> Posting another unimportant response, eh Marty?
 
>>>>>>> How ironic.
 
>>>>>> On what basis do you make that claim, Marty?
 
>>>>> See what I mean?
 
>>>> I see you didn't answer my question.  It figures.
 
>>> See what I mean?
 
>> I see you still didn't answer my question.  It figures.

> See what I mean?

I see you still didn't answer my question.  It figures.

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From: tholenAntiSpam@ifa.hawaii.edu                     30-Aug-99 15:36:18
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: tholenAntiSpam@ifa.hawaii.edu

Marty writes:

>>>>>>>>>> You're the one arguing with [...] a jerk, Brad.
 
>>>>>>>> So much for your alleged restoration of context, Marty.  Hypocrite.
 
>>>>>>> Are these not your words Dave?
 
>>>>>> They're the dictionary's words, Marty.
 
>>>>> Are those not the words you wrote, Dave?
 
>>>> I see you chose to ignore the rest of my response, otherwise you
>>>> would have no logical basis for your question.
 
>>> Are those not the words you wrote, Dave?
 
>> I see you still chose to ignore the rest of my response, otherwise you
>> would have no logical basis for your question.

> Are these not the words that you wrote?

I see you still chose to ignore the rest of my response, otherwise you
would have no logical basis for your question.

> I see you've still failed to answer the question.

Incorrect.  You failed to see my answer.  Try reading before deleting,
Marty.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         30-Aug-99 15:34:05
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Marty writes:

>>>>>>>
 
>>>>>> You have some emotional need to repost material without adding anything
>>>>>> new, Marty?
 
>>>>> You have some emotional need to address Brad Wardell directly when he's
not
>>>>> listening to you?
 
>>>> Who said I'm addressing Brad Wardell directly, Marty?
 
>>> You did, every time you said ", Brad" try reading what you write once in a
>>> while.
 
>> Incorrect.  I never called it direct.

> It doesn't matter what you call it Dave.

On the contrary, it does.

> It is direct if you address him directly.

The key word here is "if".

>> By the way, Gerben recently replied directly to me, despite allegedly
>> having me in his kill file.

> Therefore Brad will also?

Who said anything about "will", Marty?  The appropriate word is "can".

> Illogical.

Incorrect.  See above.

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From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               30-Aug-99 11:48:18
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: vmware mistake

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Mike Ruskai wrote:
> 
> On 29 Aug 1999 22:46:38 -0500, JM wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> >Since when has David's, AKA Kelly Robinson's intentions been well meaning??
> 
> Am I correct in assuming that you mean Kelly Robinson is an alias for
> David H. McCoy?
> 
> If so, that would explain a lot.

Not really.  David H. McCoy is capable of upholding a reasonable
conversation with someone who has an opposing viewpoint.  He may be very
biased toward one side of the equation (not unlike Steven) but he is a
reasonable person in my experience.

- Marty

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From: rjf@yyycomasia.com                                30-Aug-99 15:51:07
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: rjf@yyycomasia.com (rj friedman)

On Sun, 29 Aug 1999 20:42:41, ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
wrote:

ī> If you were a logical person, the only valid conclusion that
ī> you could come to is that - for motives unbeknownst to you -
ī> the people at the meeting wanted _you_ to think that _they_ 
ī> felt that their neighbor, Bob, is a complete jerk.
ī> 
ī> For all you know, they might not even think Bob is a jerk, 
ī> at all.

īConsider the probabilities of the various possible motivations of the
īneighbors... I think the most likely explanation is that they do in fact
ībelieve Bob is a jerk.

Of course you can think that the most likely explanation is 
that they do, in fact, believe that Bob is a jerk, but you 
could not logically conlcude it from the information 
supplied. The most you could logically conclude is that one 
possibility is that they do, in fact, believe that Bob is a 
jerk. You couldn't even logically conclude it is `probable'.
You simply don't have enough information about what may be 
motivating the neighbors.

In addition - even if it turned out that the neighbors 
really did feel that Bob was a jerk, you could not logically
conclude that Bob is, in fact, a jerk. Again, because you 
don't know enough about the circumstances that led them to 
that conclusion. If a disinterested third party (or parties)
were to view the circumstances, they might possibly conclude
that Bob was in the right (and therefore not a jerk), and 
the neighbors were wrong (and were therefore incorrect in 
their conclusion that Bob was a jerk).

Also, I don't know what your neighbors are like - but no way
in the world am I going to base my opinion on *anything* 
solely on the basis of what some of the characters who live 
around me have to say about it. Yet, that is what Brad would
have us believe is what he does - and is a logically 
acceptable method for judging whether any given individual 
is a jerk or not.


īTo follow your logic here, Brad Wardell, Jeff Glatt, and the rest of
īTholen's *apparent* detractors may actually think he's a great guy and,
īdue to motives unknown to you, they simply want you to *think* that they
īthink Tholen is a kook...

Wouldn't that be a kick in the head.  :-)


īHow likely do you think this explanation is?

Not very (though it *is* a logical possibility that needs to
be recognized and evaluated before a logical conclusion can 
be reached).

And let us not forget that in the case of the neighbors we 
aren't dealing with a known quantity like we are with Glatt 
and Sutherland. I have a great deal of information about 
their motivations from their behavior here in cooa, in 
general, and their interactions with Dave, in particular.

No such information exists concerning:

1) Brad and his interactions with his neighbors (no info - 
aside from the fact that he saw them once at a yearly 
Neighborhood Association meeting);

2) Brad and his interactions with `Bob' (none, it would 
seem, since Brad is relying completely on his neighbors 
opinions in forming his opinion about Bob); and

3) the neighbors and `Bob' (could be anything - we just 
don't know. Maybe Bob wouldn't lend his lawnmower to the 
President of the Neighborhood Association and the guy is now
exacting his revenge on Bob by using his clout in the 
organization to line up the members against Bob - for just 
one of many examples.

Anyone who has ever been ostracized and held hostage to 
ridicule by the `in' crowd in high school  can relate to 
this one. In fact, this is exactly what Brad's tactics in 
all of this lead me to think of - high school clique 
behavior. I suspect he was a great high school politiker.

But, back to the point:
All of which means that you may entertain the *possibility* 
that any particular conclusion is valid. And, true, some 
possiblities may _appear_ to be more probable than others; 
but there isn't enough information given in the example to 
do more than list a number of possibilities - you can't even
logically form a `probably'. As the old cliche goes, 
appearances can be deceiving.

There are just too many possible/probable alternatives to 
logically *conclude* that just because the neighbors _say_ 
they think Bob is a jerk, that he probably is a jerk. 


________________________________________________________

[RJ]                 OS/2 - Live it, or live with it. 
rj friedman          Team ABW              
Taipei, Taiwan       rjf@yyycomasia.com 

To send email - remove the `yyy'
________________________________________________________

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: rjf@yyycomasia.com                                30-Aug-99 15:51:11
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2

From: rjf@yyycomasia.com (rj friedman)

On Sun, 29 Aug 1999 07:18:09, JM 
<malstrom@emily.oit.umass.edu> wrote:

īI'm breaking the bad news to you guys, but it looks like Innoval is 
īgetting out of the OS/2 business.  In particular the following products 
īare no longer supported:
Æ
īPost Road Mailer for OS/2
īJ Street Mailer for Java
īWeb Willy Watch for OS/2
Æ
īThe full press release is at:
Æ
īhttp://www.os2ss.com/warpcast/wc3980.html

It should also be noted that these products are now 
available free for the downloading, and can be redistributed
freely.


īThe are quiting in a very dignified matter and I personally hold no 
īgrudge against them.  They will be missed.

I agree, 1000%.

As someone who has supported Innoval from the first edition 
of PostRoad Mailer through the last edition of JStreet 
Mailer, I would like to publically thank Dan Porter for the 
effort he has put in and the fine products he brought out. 
Dan and Innoval were/are a class act from beginning to end. 
Best of luck for the future.


________________________________________________________

[RJ]                 OS/2 - Live it, or live with it. 
rj friedman          Team ABW              
Taipei, Taiwan       rjf@yyycomasia.com 

To send email - remove the `yyy'
________________________________________________________

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         30-Aug-99 15:40:25
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Marty writes:

>>>>>>>> Karel Jansens writes [to Brad Wardell]:

>>>>>>>>> Just one more thing: you _do_ realise that to all the participants
and
>>>>>>>>> lurkers in this group you are representing Stardock Systems, don't
>>>>>>>>> you? I mean, I can make a complete arse of myself and Dave Tholen
can
>>>>>>>>> be as obnoxious as he wants to be, neither of us are going to lose
>>>>>>>>> even a cent in that. But if you should start painting yourself as a
>>>>>>>>> prejudiced bigot, don't you think that would reflect in your
business?

>>>>>>>> I've already been told privately that Stardock products would be
>>>>>>>> avoided because of Brad's behavior here.  One person even told me
>>>>>>>> that he emailed that statement directly to Brad.  Brad just treated
>>>>>>>> him the same way he treats me.

>>>>>>> His loss, not Brad's.

>>>>>> Incorrect.

>>>>> How do you know Dave?

>>>> Because I was told.

>>> And I was told not by someone in a high position at Stardock.

>> Someone who is a known liar, is known to have a short memory, and has
>> a motive to deny the evidence.

> Like you perhaps?

Brad Wardell is not like me.

> I've seen no evidence of this from Brad.

Try reading his posting in which he claims that there are 1600 postings
in other newsgroups with people calling me a kook.  Then read my
rebuttal.

>>> Hmm... who should I believe?

>> Is it logical to believe someone who is known to lie, Marty?

>>>>> I didn't know you were Brad's accountant.

>>>> Illogic, given that I don't need to be Brad's accountant to know that
>>>> Stardock has lost business as a result of Brad's behavior here.

>>> Bottom line -- Is it hurting Stardock?

>> At some level.

> Hurting them implies they are noticing it.

No it doesn't.

> If they noticed it, they would have dealt with it because it would be
> harming their business.

Incorrect, because it is harming their business and they still haven't
dealt with it.

> It is not.

Illogical.  People have also claimed that IBM was harming OS/2, but IBM
never dealt with those.

>>> Brad's answer is a resounding No.

>> Brad is a known liar.

> How ironic.

What's allegedly ironic about it, Marty?

>>>>>>>>> I won't even answer to the rest of that paragraph. Anybody who
thinks
>>>>>>>>> that mob justice is an example of "societal norms" is way beyond me
>>>>>>>>> anyway.

>>>>>>>> Bravo!  But it's a wonderful example of Brad's brand of reasoning.

>>>>>>> Yeah.  Realism.

>>>>>> More like illogic.

>>>>> More like realism.

>>>> More like illogic.

>>> More like realism.

>> More like illogic.

> More like a college professor acting like a 3 year old.

Are you a college professor, Marty?

> Why am I not surprised?

Perhaps it's your illogic at work again.

> More like realism.

More like illogic.

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         30-Aug-99 15:42:28
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Marty writes:

>>>>> [some more stupid crap to Brad Wardell]
 
>>>> What's allegedly stupid about it, Marty?
 
>>>>> Who are you talking to Dave?
 
>>>> The readers, Marty.
 
>>> Are the readers named Brad?
 
>> Irrelevant, Marty.  The readers didn't make the erroneous claims.

> Irrelevant Dave.

On the contrary, it's quite relevant.

> You're addressing Brad directly.

On what basis do you call it "directly", Marty?

> I see you chose to ignore the rest of the post.

Incorrect.  I addressed it previously.  You chose to delete my
response.

> Why am I not surprised?

Perhaps it's your illogic getting in the way again.

> Here is the context back for you in case you missed it:

>>> Brad can only see what other people quote from you.
>>>
>>> Still verbally masturbating, talking to your right hand?
>>> You're gonna go blind.

Why not restore my response while you're at it, Marty?

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: rerbert@wxs.nl                                    30-Aug-99 17:59:29
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: rerbert@wxs.nl (Gerben Bergman)

After a long, hard day of battling the soulless minions of orthodoxy, I came
home just in time to see Tarquelne writing:

| >Oh, I can think of many things. The interface with the mail server may be
| >mature, but there's much that can be done with the interface with the human
| >user.
| 
| I'm not trying to be snide, but what e-mailer are you using?

As he said, he uses Fort Agent (as do I). What he described are several
known shortcomings in the program, and even though other mailers might
address those shortcomings, they typically lack other features/
characteristics which make Agent the fine program that it is. (For example,
I gave up multiple-server support, filtering of outgoing messages, and HTML
support for a better spell checker, a WYSIWYG editor, virtually unlimited
configurability, combined email and news functionality, and more stability
when I dropped PMMail 98 for Agent a while ago.)

The perfect mailer hasn't been written yet, meaning there's still room for
improvement. I believe that's the point Steven was trying to make.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: cawort01@spam.netcom.com                          30-Aug-99 16:05:13
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: cawort01@spam.netcom.com

In <3804173f.390955730@news-server>, sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste) 
writes:
>On Sun, 29 Aug 1999 23:36:03 -0400, Brad Barclay recycled some holes into
>the following pattern:
>
>>Buddy Donnelly wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 02:27:59, Stephen Eickhoff <"operagost"@e-mail.com
>>> (remove the - )> a crit dans un message:
>>>
>>> > >
>>> > > Anyone may download free copies of these products from our online
store
>>> > > at http://stores.yahoo.com/innoval. In addition, anyone may freely
>>> > > distribute executable copies of the software through online software
>>> > > repositories and websites. You are encouraged to do so because we will
>>> > > only be able to keep them in our online store for a limited time. If
you
>>> >
>>> > Ooh, I can have a product that will be obsolete in months for FREE!
>>>
>>> My sentiments, too, except that I've been listening all along for the
words
>>> "Open Source" which I haven't heard.
>>
>>    Why - are POP and SMTP suddenly going to change?  These protocols have
been
>>around for years and are quite stable.
>>
>>    There isn't much you can do with an E-Mail program these days.  When
it's
>>done, it's done.  The protocols won't be changing anytime soon, so unless
you
>>plan on moving to a Microsoft Exchange based E-Mail system, these products
will
>>continue to work for many, many, many years, without being obsolete.
>>
>>Brad BARCLAY
>>
>
>Sorry to disagree with you, but in fact there's a lot you can do with a mail
>program.
>
>How about more intelligent filtering? (Agent lets me use regular expressions
>on the subject line, but I'd like to be able to filter on the contents of a
>message, so that anything which contains the phrase "MLM" goes straight into
>the trash bin.) Automated responses to messages? ("I'm on vacation right
>now, but I'll get back to you in two weeks.")
>
>Better folder manipulation?
>
>Searching of folders using complex search rules?
>
>Easy connection to multiple servers?
>
>Oh, I can think of many things. The interface with the mail server may be
>mature, but there's much that can be done with the interface with the human
>user.
>


Well I'd suggest you get PMMail/2 it does all those things :)

and doesn't crash.  I bought One innoval product, and it didn't work as
advertised.
I was disappointed and never bought another thing from them.

Chris

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               30-Aug-99 12:06:07
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Dave Tholen wrote:
> 
> Marty writes [to Bennie Nelson]:
> 
> > I haven't arrived at a conclusion blindly, either.  I've experienced Dave
first hand, and would rather have not done so.  Perhaps I should have taken
everyone else's advice...
> 
> You did arrive at a conclusion [...] however.  Including my [...] arguments.
> Because it was [...] the advice of "everyone", Marty?
> 
> > [or perhaps I shouldn't have been so illogical, right Dave?]
> 
> Right, Marty.

Why am I not surprised?

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From: cawort01@spam.netcom.com                          30-Aug-99 16:17:02
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2

From: cawort01@spam.netcom.com

In <38053570.398686154@news-server>, sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste) 
writes:
>On Sun, 29 Aug 1999 23:44:44 -0400, Brad Barclay recycled some holes into
>the following pattern:
>
>>"David H. McCoy" wrote:
>>
>>> What? I also left out Dan's statement claiming that OS/2 users made
>>> PostRoad the number one email client. Surely, you didn't miss this? Now,
>>> clearly, by this statement they are perceiving that they are "head of the
>>> pack". Yet, they are bowing out.  This says to me that the OS/2 software
>>> market and making a living are indeed, mutually exclusive.
>>
>>    How may E-Mail clients do you use?  Probably the same number as everyone
>>else:  one.  And how much opportunity is there for upgrading the E-Mail
client?
>
>I use Agent for my private email and Eudora for my work email. Qualcomm has
>been steadily releasing new versions of Eudora for quite some time, with all
>manner of improvements in the user interface and internal structure. For
>instance, one of the recent releases of the WIN32 version implemented use of
>threads, so that you could download messages without locking up the user
>interface. (grumble damned Macintosh mumble grumble)
>

LOL,  too funny.  PMMail/2 has been threaded for ages.  Poor you for suffering 
so long.  PMMail/2 sends and checks simultaneously.

I suppose the innovation of Eudora light for the mac is so important that the
latest
version is years old?  i'd say that proves Brad's point.

>>The mail protocols, POP3 and SMTP have been stable for years, and certainly
>>aren't changing.  There comes a time when there isn't any further you can
really
>>go with a piece of software.
>
>Perhaps so, but few email programs have hit that limit yet. Certainly none
>that I've used. I can think of things I'd like added to every email program
>I know of.
>

Get a real email client.  and just think PMMail is available for windows
users.

chris



>I like Agent a lot, but I can think of things I wish they'd add. (Not much
>likelihood of it, though.)
>

why not?  with the billions of supposed windows users out there clamoring for 
a better app.  that statement just doesn't make any sense.  They should add
features
and increase market share.  I'd hope that a feature you thought would be
attractive
would be also considered useful to other folks.



>>    No, developing OS/2 software and making a living is not mutually
exclusive.
>
>Of course not. You develop OS/2 software in your spare time, and make a
>living developing WIN32 software for pay. But no company seems to be able to
>make a living by developing shrink-wrap OS/2 software for retail sale.
>
>>With E-Mail software, you quickly run into a situation where the market is
>>saturated.  As it is, in the OS/2 world there are quite a few actively
developed
>>E-Mail program choices, so you reach market saturation quicker than you
would
>>with other types of products.  Indeed, Innoval was in a position where they
had
>>two E-Mail products, which in market terms means you wind up competing with
>>yourself.
>
>Why drop both, then? Your argument suggests they should have dropped only
>one of them.
>
>>    I would also like to point out here that Dan's posting has stated that
their
>>consulting business is doing quite well.  Seeing as how Innoval has long
been a
>>part of the OS/2 community, one can probably safely assume that they're
making
>>money off OS/2 consulting.  If this is true, then they aren't leaving the
OS/2
>>community - they're simply changing their focus (as Dan himself points out).
>>Besides which, Innoval's products are still with us - and now they're free
of
>>charge (my only concern with this is that I hope that it doesn't affect
other
>>OS/2 ISV's which compete against these products and charge for their
competing
>>product - OS/2 users now have some high-quality choices which are totally
free,
>>and that can be very hard to compete against).
>>
>>Brad BARCLAY
>>
>
>Brad, I think you're trying just a bit too hard to rationalize this. This
>isn't about email programs, this is about OS/2.
>
>It has nothing to do with email programs topping out, it has to do with the
>bottom falling out of the OS/2 app market.
>
>The reason Innoval has saturated their market is because the market is tiny.
>It doesn't take long to fill a thimble.
>

>--------
>Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
>Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste
>
>"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
>              -- Calvin

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: rerbert@wxs.nl                                    30-Aug-99 18:18:04
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: rerbert@wxs.nl (Gerben Bergman)

From the desk of Friar Marty:

| > By the way, Gerben recently replied directly to me, despite allegedly
| > having me in his kill file.
| 
| Therefore Brad will also?  Illogical.

In Dave's one-track universe everything works one way, namely the way he
thinks it works. If I choose to check out one of his responses because I
*knew* what part of my message he was going to respond to and I wanted to
see what he had to say about it, that means I'm probably lying about my use
of a killfile as is everyone else who claims to have him killfiled. The
rigidity in his thinking process never ceases to amaze me.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: gnrm@earth.gh.net                                 30-Aug-99 12:22:20
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: "os2pal" <gnrm@earth.gh.net>

Esther Schindler <esther@bitranch.com> wrote in message
news:LoEFmgJJ9ecw-pn2-vcn7O1bd34sJ@agave.bitranch.com...

> Stephen,
>
> I'm surprised that you encountered such ignorance of Innoval's
> products.
-----------snipped-----------------

Surprise? Are you under the assumption that their products were the pillars
of intelligence?


> I'm quite sure that posting that message caused him a great
> deal of pain;

Nah, why post unless there is a hidden agenda behind it? If you'd read the
post carefully...

> like other OS/2 ISVs whose desire to pay the mortgage
> forced them to consider alternatives, it can't have been an easy
> decision. I'm sure that it's not a decision he ever wanted to reach.

His accountants (if he had any) probably reached this decision for him :)
He faces another problem: If he didn't make it here, my guess is, he might
have problems elsewhere. He is already branded, if I may say so.

He'll have to do a tad better than JWalking and free Willy. If worse comes
to worse, I am guessing, he can always end up having a few Cyberbeers online
with Brad Wardell and chat about the good 'ol times - when they used to fill
our brains up with empty talk.

>
> Perhaps you might show a little empathy for his situation.

I am. Shall I send him flowers or a sympathy card?

>
> --Esther
>   who had to turn away from her 100%-OS/2 business, too


<chuckle>  Had a hunch you'll see the light sooner or later <another
chuckle>



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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: gnrm@earth.gh.net                                 30-Aug-99 12:25:18
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: "os2pal" <gnrm@earth.gh.net>


> >   I am currently looking for a new mail program to replace
> >UltiMail, and I am testing PMMail

MR/2 ICE is good.


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               30-Aug-99 09:29:17
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste)

On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 15:01:22 +0200, Martin Nisshagen recycled some holes
into the following pattern:

>I also can't see why some people is trying to blame Tim for this. He is only
>_reporting_ the news, not the one who has stopped the development of them.

I think the question is not so much him reporting the news, nor his taking
it graciously, as the fact that it doesn't square with his public reaction
and castigation of Stardock when it did something like the same thing only
less so.

Innoval is completely abandoning development and support of all commercial
OS/2 software and Tim says "It's a shame but our best wishes go with you."
Stardock continues to develops OS/2 software but also develops WIN32
software and Tim says "You're a money-grubbing bastard and you're exploiting
OS/2 users." Why the difference?

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
              -- Calvin

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: rjf@yyycomasia.com                                30-Aug-99 16:38:11
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: rjf@yyycomasia.com (rj friedman)

On Sun, 29 Aug 1999 19:15:47, "Brad Wardell" 
<bwardell@mw.mediaone.net> wrote:

īOh and btw, remember how Tholen kept calling me a liar for saying that he's
īgotten more than "6 votes"
ī 
īHere are the kook voting results:
ī 
īhttp://polls.whatiz.com/poll.cgi?action=results&poll=300
ī 
īTholen got 955 votes.

That poll, as you very well know, was a juvenile prank 
played by one of Dave's long term harassers - in which he 
rigged the whole thing - including the bogus list of people 
- which most definitely was not in the hundreds.

The guy even outright admitted it was a prank, and that he 
did it for the fun of it (this has also been pointed out to 
you on more than one occasion).

The fact that you insist on offering this as evidence of 
anything other than the juvenile prank it was, shows that 
either you have absolutely no sense of judgement, or that 
you are deliberately misrepresenting this in order to 
discredit Dave.

Then, again, the tarbrush seems to be your primary line of 
defense when it comes to cooa debate.




________________________________________________________

[RJ]                 OS/2 - Live it, or live with it. 
rj friedman          Team ABW              
Taipei, Taiwan       rjf@yyycomasia.com 

To send email - remove the `yyy'
________________________________________________________

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: rjf@yyycomasia.com                                30-Aug-99 16:38:14
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2

From: rjf@yyycomasia.com (rj friedman)

On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 03:36:47, JM 
<malstrom@wilde.oit.umass.edu> wrote:

īThe felt they had the best technology, but the weren't the most popular 
īmailer.  In fact, I couldn't believe as many email programs were able to 
īkeep a float as their was.  I mean they had ahead of them, PMMail, 
īMr/2Ice, and Netscape.

And on top of that, two full featured freeware Java mail 
programs just came out. So, what products does he have where
he can be expected to make any money in this market? The 
only logical step for him to take was the one he did.

My own feeling is that this is the beginning of a trend that
will hit all of software as we know it over the next 5-10 
years. Specifically, in the future, all software is going to
be `free' (in the sense that the software that runs your 
telephone is free - you don't pay for it directly, you pay 
for it as indirectly as part of your phone bill).

As such - there won't be money for most programming in sales
to the end user market as there is now - the money will come
from sales and (especially) service to the application 
server market - and people will get access to software 
`free' as part of their ASP (Application Server Provider) 
package over the internet.

What software gets written for the individual `market' will 
most likely be open source freeware type specialty appeal 
stuff.


________________________________________________________

[RJ]                 OS/2 - Live it, or live with it. 
rj friedman          Team ABW              
Taipei, Taiwan       rjf@yyycomasia.com 

To send email - remove the `yyy'
________________________________________________________

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               30-Aug-99 12:44:20
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Dave Tholen wrote:
> 
> Marty writes:
> 
> >>>>>>>>>> Yes [...] the interpretation is logical, Brad.
> 
> >>>>>>>> So much for your alleged restoration of context, Marty.
> 
> >>>>>>> Are those not your words, Dave?
> 
> >>>>>> They're the dictionary's words, Marty.
> 
> >>>>> Are these not the words that you wrote?
> 
> >>>> I see you chose to ignore the rest of my response, otherwise
> >>>> you'd have no logical basis for your question.
> 
> >>> Are these not the words that you wrote?
> 
> >> I see you still chose to ignore the rest of my response, otherwise
> >> you'd have no logical basis for your question.
> 
> > Are these not the words that you wrote?
> 
> I see you still chose to ignore the rest of my response, otherwise
> you'd have no logical basis for your question.
> 
> > I see you've still failed to answer the question.
> 
> Incorrect.  You failed to see my answer.

Are these not the words that you wrote?  It's not a difficult question
Dave.  You've failed to answer it appropriately.  An appropriate answer
is "yes" or "no."  I have not seen either of these words in your
response.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               30-Aug-99 12:45:21
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: 1.66 hours left [no text]

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Dave Tholen wrote:
> 
> Marty writes:
> 
> >>>
> 
> >> The series of "no text" countdown messages is from one of the people
> >> Brad Wardell considers "reasonable".
> 
> > Is it more reasonable to waste space and bandwidth responding to such a
> > thick-skulled arrogant individual?
> 
> On what basis do you call it a waste of space and bandwidth to counter
> Brad Wardell's lies?

You seem to be having delusions of granduer.  I was referring to you
Professor.

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From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               30-Aug-99 12:46:06
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [time's up] [context guard]

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Dave Tholen wrote:
> 
> Marty writes:
> 
> >>>>>>>>>> You just indicated [...] responses to me [...] will be
unimportant.
> >>>>>>>>>> I agree.
> 
> >>>>>>>> Posting another unimportant response, eh Marty?
> 
> >>>>>>> How ironic.
> 
> >>>>>> On what basis do you make that claim, Marty?
> 
> >>>>> See what I mean?
> 
> >>>> I see you didn't answer my question.  It figures.
> 
> >>> See what I mean?
> 
> >> I see you still didn't answer my question.  It figures.
> 
> > See what I mean?
> 
> I see you still didn't answer my question.  It figures.

See what I mean?

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From: rerbert@wxs.nl                                    30-Aug-99 18:43:12
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2

From: rerbert@wxs.nl (Gerben Bergman)

When we last saw our heroes, cawort01@spam.netcom.com was pontificating
endlessly about "Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2", and on occasion even
making sense:

| >Perhaps so, but few email programs have hit that limit yet. Certainly none
| >that I've used. I can think of things I'd like added to every email program
| >I know of.
| 
| Get a real email client. And just think PMMail is available for Windows
| users.

PMMail 98's spell checker is horribly slow and queries insensibly, its
editor isn't WYSIWYG, it can't display quoted lines with a different color,
message introductions cannot be changed, reading in folders takes way too
much time, toolbars are not customizable, change the quotation prefix and
the thing starts wrapping quoted lines, opening HTML-formatted messages
regularly causes crashes, etc. These are all annoying quirks which Agent
solves elegantly.

Perhaps you should inform yourself a little before trashing someone else's
choice of mailer.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: rjf@yyycomasia.com                                30-Aug-99 16:48:13
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: rjf@yyycomasia.com (rj friedman)

On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 15:08:43, esther@bitranch.com (Esther 
Schindler) wrote:

īThat may be true, Steven, but as I'm sure you know, most people don't 
īdo _anything_ with the user interface other than read-and-reply. I'm 
īquite sure that a high percentage of Internet users have never even 
īcreated a new message folder.

To say nothing of the fact that - for the user with more 
sophisticated requirements - the mailers available for OS/2 
- including PostRoad and JStreet - have the sophisticated 
features (nested folders, filters, multiple accounts, exit 
script capability, et. al), that Mr. Broccolli appeared to 
be not aware of.


________________________________________________________

[RJ]                 OS/2 - Live it, or live with it. 
rj friedman          Team ABW              
Taipei, Taiwan       rjf@yyycomasia.com 

To send email - remove the `yyy'
________________________________________________________

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               30-Aug-99 12:55:28
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Dave Tholen wrote:
> 
> Marty writes:
> 
> >>>>>>>
> 
> >>>>>> You have some emotional need to repost material without adding
anything
> >>>>>> new, Marty?
> 
> >>>>> You have some emotional need to address Brad Wardell directly when
he's not
> >>>>> listening to you?
> 
> >>>> Who said I'm addressing Brad Wardell directly, Marty?
> 
> >>> You did, every time you said ", Brad" try reading what you write once in 
a
> >>> while.
> 
> >> Incorrect.  I never called it direct.
> 
> > It doesn't matter what you call it Dave.
> 
> On the contrary, it does.

What you call it is irrelevant to what it is.  Doth not a rose by any
other name smell as sweet?  Or in this case, feces smell any more or
less repulsive?

> > It is direct if you address him directly.
> 
> The key word here is "if".

No, the key word is direct.  Try to focus for a change.  You have
addressed him directly in adding ", Brad" to several statements.  Are
you going to deny doing this or are you going to attempt to change the
definition of "directly addressing"?  Either way you are incorrect.
 
> >> By the way, Gerben recently replied directly to me, despite allegedly
> >> having me in his kill file.
> 
> > Therefore Brad will also?
> 
> Who said anything about "will", Marty?  The appropriate word is "can".

Why would you respond directly to someone if you're not particularly
expecting them to respond back?  That's illogical Dave.  [In spite of my
highest hopes, I fully expect you to respond, hence I address you
directly.]

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From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               30-Aug-99 12:58:20
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

tholenAntiSpam@ifa.hawaii.edu wrote:
> 
> Marty writes:
> 
> >>>>>>>>>> You're the one arguing with [...] a jerk, Brad.
> 
> >>>>>>>> So much for your alleged restoration of context, Marty.  Hypocrite.
> 
> >>>>>>> Are these not your words Dave?
> 
> >>>>>> They're the dictionary's words, Marty.
> 
> >>>>> Are those not the words you wrote, Dave?
> 
> >>>> I see you chose to ignore the rest of my response, otherwise you
> >>>> would have no logical basis for your question.
> 
> >>> Are those not the words you wrote, Dave?
> 
> >> I see you still chose to ignore the rest of my response, otherwise you
> >> would have no logical basis for your question.
> 
> > Are these not the words that you wrote?
> 
> I see you still chose to ignore the rest of my response, otherwise you
> would have no logical basis for your question.
> 
> > I see you've still failed to answer the question.
> 
> Incorrect.  You failed to see my answer.  Try reading before deleting,
> Marty.

Are these not the words that you wrote?  It's not a difficult question
Dave.  You've failed to answer it appropriately.  An appropriate answer
is "yes" or "no."  I have not seen either of these words in your
response.

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From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               30-Aug-99 13:07:05
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Dave Tholen wrote:
> 
> Marty writes:
> 
> >>>>>>>> Karel Jansens writes [to Brad Wardell]:
> 
> >>>>>>>>> Just one more thing: you _do_ realise that to all the participants 
and
> >>>>>>>>> lurkers in this group you are representing Stardock Systems, don't
> >>>>>>>>> you? I mean, I can make a complete arse of myself and Dave Tholen
can
> >>>>>>>>> be as obnoxious as he wants to be, neither of us are going to lose
> >>>>>>>>> even a cent in that. But if you should start painting yourself as
a
> >>>>>>>>> prejudiced bigot, don't you think that would reflect in your
business?
> 
> >>>>>>>> I've already been told privately that Stardock products would be
> >>>>>>>> avoided because of Brad's behavior here.  One person even told me
> >>>>>>>> that he emailed that statement directly to Brad.  Brad just treated
> >>>>>>>> him the same way he treats me.
> 
> >>>>>>> His loss, not Brad's.
> 
> >>>>>> Incorrect.
> 
> >>>>> How do you know Dave?
> 
> >>>> Because I was told.
> 
> >>> And I was told not by someone in a high position at Stardock.
> 
> >> Someone who is a known liar, is known to have a short memory, and has
> >> a motive to deny the evidence.
> 
> > Like you perhaps?
> 
> Brad Wardell is not like me.

No argument there.  I'm glad you see my point.

> > I've seen no evidence of this from Brad.
> 
> Try reading his posting in which he claims that there are 1600 postings
> in other newsgroups with people calling me a kook.  Then read my
> rebuttal.

I have.
 
> >>> Hmm... who should I believe?
> 
> >> Is it logical to believe someone who is known to lie, Marty?
> 
> >>>>> I didn't know you were Brad's accountant.
> 
> >>>> Illogic, given that I don't need to be Brad's accountant to know that
> >>>> Stardock has lost business as a result of Brad's behavior here.
> 
> >>> Bottom line -- Is it hurting Stardock?
> 
> >> At some level.
> 
> > Hurting them implies they are noticing it.
> 
> No it doesn't.

Hurting them implies financial loss which they would notice.
 
> > If they noticed it, they would have dealt with it because it would be
> > harming their business.
> 
> Incorrect, because it is harming their business and they still haven't
> dealt with it.

Prove it, if you think you can.
 
> > It is not.
> 
> Illogical.  People have also claimed that IBM was harming OS/2, but IBM
> never dealt with those.

This is completely unrelated.
 
> >>> Brad's answer is a resounding No.
> 
> >> Brad is a known liar.
> 
> > How ironic.
> 
> What's allegedly ironic about it, Marty?

The fact that you are a known liar.
 
> >>>>>>>>> I won't even answer to the rest of that paragraph. Anybody who
thinks
> >>>>>>>>> that mob justice is an example of "societal norms" is way beyond
me
> >>>>>>>>> anyway.
> 
> >>>>>>>> Bravo!  But it's a wonderful example of Brad's brand of reasoning.
> 
> >>>>>>> Yeah.  Realism.
> 
> >>>>>> More like illogic.
> 
> >>>>> More like realism.
> 
> >>>> More like illogic.
> 
> >>> More like realism.
> 
> >> More like illogic.
> 
> > More like a college professor acting like a 3 year old.
> 
> Are you a college professor, Marty?

No, and that's precisely my point.  I'm glad you agree.
 
> > Why am I not surprised?
> 
> Perhaps it's your illogic at work again.

Or your impression of a 3 year old at work again.
 
> > More like realism.
> 
> More like illogic.

More like realism.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
 * Origin: Usenet: IBM Global Services North -- Burlington, Vermont,
(1:109/42)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               30-Aug-99 13:11:00
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Dave Tholen wrote:
> 
> Marty writes:
> 
> >>>>> [some more stupid crap to Brad Wardell]
> 
> >>>> What's allegedly stupid about it, Marty?
> 
> >>>>> Who are you talking to Dave?
> 
> >>>> The readers, Marty.
> 
> >>> Are the readers named Brad?
> 
> >> Irrelevant, Marty.  The readers didn't make the erroneous claims.
> 
> > Irrelevant Dave.
> 
> On the contrary, it's quite relevant.

Incorrect.
 
> > You're addressing Brad directly.
> 
> On what basis do you call it "directly", Marty?

On the basis that you wrote ", Brad", Dave.  Do you wish to deny this
fact or change the definition of "responding directly"?  Either way
you're wrong.
 
> > I see you chose to ignore the rest of the post.
> 
> Incorrect.  I addressed it previously.  You chose to delete my
> response.

Because it was irrelevant, inappropriate, and didn't answer the
question.
 
> > Why am I not surprised?
> 
> Perhaps it's your illogic getting in the way again.
> 
> > Here is the context back for you in case you missed it:
> 
> >>> Brad can only see what other people quote from you.
> >>>
> >>> Still verbally masturbating, talking to your right hand?
> >>> You're gonna go blind.
> 
> Why not restore my response while you're at it, Marty?

Because it was irrelevant, inappropriate, and didn't answer the
question.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
 * Origin: Usenet: IBM Global Services North -- Burlington, Vermont,
(1:109/42)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net                            30-Aug-99 17:17:15
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [rhetorical]

From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens)

On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 02:22:14, rerbert@wxs.nl (Gerben Bergman) wrote:

> Deep within his glass house, Dave Tholen threw the following stones:
> 
> | My ancestry is not Dutch.
> 
> Why, thank you Dave. That's the nicest thing you've ever said to me.
> 
Aha!
Got you, Gerben. I thought you had Dave killfiled:

GB:
"Fair enough; that's exactly how I feel about the prattle Dave is 
undoubtedly following each of my messages up with. Thank God for 
killfiles."

Shame on you, pretending to killfile someone while sneekily still 
reading their messages. :^)

Karel Jansens
jansens_at_ibm_dot_net
=======================================================
If we could have our cake _and_ eat it,
people would start whining about seconds.
=======================================================

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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(1:109/42)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: rerbert@wxs.nl                                    30-Aug-99 19:34:02
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [rhetorical]

From: rerbert@wxs.nl (Gerben Bergman)

jansens_at_ibm_dot_net chanted "Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [rhetorical]"
while Cthulhu waited dreaming...

| > Why, thank you Dave. That's the nicest thing you've ever said to me.
| 
| Aha! Got you, Gerben. I thought you had Dave killfiled.

I do, but I reserve the right to check out one of his messages every now and
then when I'm interested in his reaction to something I stated. Perhaps that
makes me illogical and inconsistent, but I'd rather be that than "logical"
and "consistent" in the Tholen sense. YMMV.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
 * Origin: Usenet: Chaos & Disorder, Inc. (1:109/42)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: bunzel@fh-muenchen.de                             30-Aug-99 20:09:22
  To: nobody@neuropa.net                                30-Aug-99 16:56:27
Subj: Re: HPFS386, The Reality...

To: Anonymous <nobody@neuropa.net>
From: Martin Bunzel FH <bunzel@fh-muenchen.de>

...I heard about a fight. Do you really think FS386 is faster? - As I
measured under Warp4, it is not under all circumstances: depending on
CPU last for file i/o and file size one can have respectable results
with normal HPFS. Another case is that your machine will not boot up
with HPFS, if the drive is formated for HPFS386.

* Partition Magic: for installing one must see that a new FS need
certain place as also the boot manager do.

Martin

Anonymous schrieb:
> 
> Installing HPFS386 into a Warp v4 client makes your system FASTER!.  If
> you think, this hurts IBM, think again.  The reason IBM does'nt include
> HPFS386 into Warp v4 is because MS charges HUGE royalties for EACH copy
> of HPFS386!.  Therefore, IBM only includes it with Warp Server.
> 
> NOTE: HPFS386 makes sense for a stand-alone OS/2 system!, that's because
> Partition
> Magic is not compatible with it....
> 
> Check: alt.binaries.warez.os2
> 
> IF YOU ARE AN EXISTING OS/2 WARP USER, YOU MAY IMPROVE SYSTEM FILE I/O
> BY 5X TO 10X FACTOR.
> 
> NOTE:
> Now, that IBM seems to be abandoning OS/2, we must play a guerilla war
> strategy to fight Windows and MS.
> We all KNOW that OS/2 is superior to the Windows counterpart.  We will
> fight with all our resources.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
 * Origin: Usenet: Fachhochschule München (1:109/42)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: ames@deltrak.demon.co.uk                          30-Aug-99 17:58:20
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:28
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: ames@deltrak.demon.co.uk (Andrew Stephenson)

In article <yHQxxE9f8dqd-pn2-FFRQjmOcVHPd@POBLANO>
	   l_luciano@da.mob "Stan Goodman" writes:

> Aw, c'mon Martin. Impaling the messenger is a time-honored
> response to bad news.

At one time, AFAIR, some people would sacrifice bearers of _good_
news to the gods, as a 'thankyou'.  I guess we're too modern for
any of that.  Now we just beat up Tim, as a matter of principle.
--
Andrew Stephenson

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
 * Origin: Usenet: DNS (1:109/42)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: flash-bounce@nym.alias.net                        30-Aug-99 21:16:13
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:28
Subj: (1/2)  Warp_v4_SuperCharged! 

From: Anonymous <flash-bounce@nym.alias.net>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Installing HPFS386 into a Warp v4 client makes your system FASTER!.  If
you think, this hurts IBM, think again.  The reason IBM does'nt include
HPFS386 into Warp v4 is because MS charges HUGE royalties for EACH copy
of
HPFS386!.  Therefore, IBM only includes it with Warp Server.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
IF YOU ARE AN EXISTING OS/2 WARP USER, THIS GUIDE WILL DESCRIBE HOW YOU
MAY IMPROVE SYSTEM FILE I/O BY 5X TO 10X FACTOR.

note:  This information is provided for educational, and entertainment
purposes only.  

IT is Recommended to print this guide now or save to a file for future
reference.... ;)

Introduction

This is a guide or informative doc,  how to install a quite IMPROVED 
OS/2 Warp v4 to your PC.  This guide is published for intermediate to
power PC users.  Why could you be interested in OS/2?.:
 => Because it is a robust 32-bit OS
 => Excellent Internet services (TCP/IP)
 => Excellent GUI, (named as the best on an important Linux web site)
 => Good support from IBM (Service pak #11 released in july)
 => Excellent 32-bit applications available and 1000's of utilities
 => JVM v1.1.8  The best JVM as reported by Volano and other 
benchmarks
 => YEAR 2K READY!, and more

Want' to try a FREE screensaver?:
http://www.os2ss.com/warpcast/wc1129.html

When installing Wipeout Screen saver, don't install the toolkit with 
OS/2 v4...

This is a guide to OS/2 information, software, resources and more,.. 
if you like challenges, keep reading!.  This time you can setup a more 
powerful PC system than ever.  The final result of this setup maybe
called OS/2 Brutal-Force...

PC newspersons are welcome to build this setup for testing purposes 
and they can have a better prisma to report how good or bad OS/2 is.
Reporting about OS/2 without making reserch, installing it, and
installing appropiate Fixpacks is to be an UN-PROFESSIONAL newsperson.

ATTENTION INTERNATIONAL USERS!, LOTUS SMART SUITE V1.1 FOR OS/2 WARP 4
IS NOW AVAILABLE WITH MULTI-LANGUAGE SUPPORT!!

Sample of OS/2 Applications & Utilities, some with url links:
1) Lotus Smart Suite v1.1 (123, Word Pro, Organizer, 
Approach,Freelance)
http://www.lotus.com/home.nsf/welcome/smartsuiteos2
2) Netscape Communicator v4.61 (July 14, 1999 edition)
http://www.software.ibm.com/warp/netscape
3) IBM Visual Age for JAVA v2 (v3 in beta right now)
http://www.software.ibm.com/ad/vajava
4) Star Office v5.1 (German Office Suite that resembles Office)
http://www.stardivision.com
5) IBM Visual Age for C++ v4
http://www.spoftware.ibm.com/ad/visualge_c++
6) Doctor Solomon Anti-Virus, VirusScan v4.02
http://www.nai.com
7) SETI@OS2
http://www.os2ss.com/seti
8) Emtec FTP 5.06 (with resume capabilities)
ftp://ftp.us.emtec.com/netsuite/eftp506.zip
9)Gamma Tech v4.0
http://www.gt-online.com
10) Object desktop v2.0
http://www.stardock.com
11) PKZIP v2.50
http://www.pkware.com/shareware/pkos2250.html
12) MainActor v3.0 (in development)
13) Pronews v1.51 (excellent usenet reader)
http://hobbes.nmsu.edu
14) IBM TCP/IP v4.1 (32-bit)
15) and more files
http://hobbes.nmsu.edu

One of our goals is to demonstrate that OS/2 is an excellent OS
alternative.

You need a FTP client with resume downloads capabilities.  If you are an
existing OS/2 user, try; Emtec FTP 5.06.  To follow OS/2 topics, use;
Pronews Usenet Reader [highly recommended]

1)  ftp://merlin.itep.ru (lss;os2warez) 

Be patient, many persons are loggin almost every hour and every minute.
Best hours are 2-5 AM.  Warning: Stardock Essentials v2.0 crash OS/2. Be
careful and avoid installing it.  Process Commander is a nice
application, it will save you many problems. But it is recommended to
uninstall it before installing a Fixpack.  Install Process Commander
-=AFTER=- installing FP #11.

Note: OS/2 should be installed to a HPFS partition.  System behavior 
is much better than FAT.

IMPORTANT!!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~
HPFS386 IS NOT COMPATIBLE WITH PARTITION MAGIC (ACL).  Also, you could
have
BIG trouble executing HD utils NOT compatible with HPFS386!. This makes
sense for
an standalone OS/2 system.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~

Always check hardware for compatibility with OS/2,  Suggested 
installation procedure:
   1- Browse through KEY OS/2 web sites and learn about OS/2 
   2- Install OS/2 v4
   3- Install Must-Have utilities (more at the end of the doc)
   4- Get and install Netscape Communicator v4.61
      http://www.software.ibm.com/os/warp/netscape/
   5- Get and install OS/2 Feature Install Version 1.2.4 
      http://service.boulder.ibm.com/asd-bin/doc/en_us/catalog.htm  
   6- Get and install latest JAVA (1.1.7 or latest)
      http://service.boulder.ibm.com/asd-bin/doc/en_us/catalog.htm
   7- Enable software updates through the WWW                   
http://ps.boulder.ibm.com/pbin-usa-ps/getobj.pl?/pdocs-usa/softupd.htm
   8- Update OS/2 v4 (click the OS/2 v4 column, RSU, and Fixpack #11)
   9- Update Spooler
  10- Follow the instructions (be sure to NOT have other applications
running.)
  11- Go and hunt for TCP/IP v4.1 and install it.  This baby will allow
much better 'Interneting'
  12- Go and hunt for other OS/2 applications, particularly in FTP sites
in Russia
  13- Install Lotus Smart Suite v1.1, Star Office, File Manager and 
others. 
  14- Remember TEST DRIVE THEM and buy after 60 dayS TEST DRIVE

     
-------------------------------------------------------------------
and NOW Our Featured Presentation...

SUPER-CHARGE YOUR OS/2 SETUP.  HOW TO USE A BIGGER CACHE, 32-BIT FILE
SYSTEM AND 32-BIT DEVICE DRIVER.  MAKE YOUR OS/2 SYSTEM FASTER THAN
EVER.

HPFS386  --=> High Performance File System 

check fir it in alt.binaries.warez.os2, comp.os.os2.apps
or check around....

This hpfs386 is dated 06/11/99 and is the latest release.  if you're
just using hpfs.ifs,  you can improve your system performance with the
hpfs386 driver.

The hpfs386 is 32bit and can have any cache size you want, plus its
about 4x faster at writing and a bit faster at reading.  It will improve
the speed of your system. Instructions for installing are inside the
hpfs386 zip file. It is easy to do. The instructions are inside the ini
file itself in case you get lost. 

Another note: you'll need to update your config.sys. That information 
is also found in the hpfs386.zip file in the readme instructions.  The
entries are easy to add.  They can be  included at the end of your path
statements and you can literally mark/copy/paste the entry from the 
instruction file directly into your config.sys  paths.   

Make sure you make those entries in your config.sys before you reboot
your system so your system knows  what driver to use and where to find
it. You'll know it worked when 
you reboot and a single  statement across your screen says the hpfs386
driver was found.

HPFS INSTALLATION:
HPFS386 Installation on Warp3, Warp4 ..etc.

Make a directory under c:\ called ibm386fs and copy everything
in this package there..

Edit your config.sys, REM out the hpfs.ifs line, and add these:
IFS=C:\IBM386FS\HPFS386.IFS /A:*
CALL=C:\OS2\CMD.EXE /Q /C C:\IBM386FS\CACHE386.EXE >NUL

Add C:\IBM386FS; to your PATH, LIBPATH and DPATH

Edit HPFS386.INI and change the cachesize to whatever you want
(don't edit anything else!)

Reboot and enjoy!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
2) DANIS506 --=>
http://hobbes.nmsu.edu/pub/os2/system/drivers/storage/danis506.zip


                       Daniela's S506 ADD - Gamma 5
                        ------------------------------
Check for latest release in http://hobbes.nmsu.edu/incoming

NAME
     DaniS506.ADD  -  replacement for IBM1S506.ADD

ATTENTION, Test Results!

RESULTS REPORTED FROM INTEGRATING DANIS506.ADD -=>AND<=- HPFS386 
TO OS/2 AN WARP v4 SYSTEM:  Enjoy...... :)

Before Danis506+HPFS386  (Sysbench 0.9.4e)
>  File I/O - Drive D:
>    4Kb seq.   Uncached w :     3878.003    Kilobytes/second
>    4Kb seq.   Uncached r :     5811.515    Kilobytes/second
	.
	.
>    64K random Cached   w :     4906.782    Kilobytes/second
>    64K random Cached   r :     2672.974    Kilobytes/second
>    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>    Total                 :     3096.124    File I/O-marks
>                               ==========

AFTER DANIS506+HPFS386
>  File I/O - Drive D:
>    4Kb seq.   Uncached w :     2268.435    Kilobytes/second
>    4Kb seq.   Uncached r :    30223.332    Kilobytes/second
	.
	.
>    64K random Cached   w :    57649.151    Kilobytes/second
>    64K random Cached   r :    52182.161    Kilobytes/second
>    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>    Total                 :    31493.542    File I/O-marks
>                              ============

System File I/O-marks increased by a factor of 10X!, sure your results
will vary but it seems a definitive and substantial improvement that
positions OS/2 Warp v4 as a quite attractive computing and SOHO
platform.

What is a Fixpack?

For a complete description,check:
http://www.os2ezine.com/v1n4/fixpak.html

To UPDATE your system to the most recent fixpack level check:
http://ps.boulder.ibm.com/pbin-usa-ps/getobj.pl?/pdocs-usa/softupd.htm

TIP: You will need a file named RSUINST.EXE  download it from

http://ps.boulder.ibm.com/pbin-usa-ps/getobj.pl?/pdocs-usa/softupd.htm
l#warp34

Now your OS/2 v4 should run like a champ!, browse through OS/2
newsgroups for any help or question you may have :/

If for any reason OS/2 'hangs' while booting, you have a 'MIRACLE' 
KEYpress ALT-F1 while OS/2 boots (There will be a small OS/2 rectangle
in the upper left corner of your monitor...  Follow the alternatives o
FIX the CONFIG.SYS file  if you messed with it...It will be wise to 
make backup copies of OS2.INI and OS2SYS.INI files. Use FM/2 file
manager to do it.

Try to have BACKUP copies of CONFIG.SYS.  just in case......If you need
help:
comp.os.os2.apps,comp.os.os2.beta,comp.os.os2.bugs,comp.os.os2.setup.misc
comp.os.os2.setup.video,comp.os.os2.setup.storage

Hardware considerations:

IBM HAS DEVELOPED OS/2 DEVICE DRIVER PAK ONLINE, THIS WEB SITE HAVE
THOUNSANDS OF DRIVERS.  
http://service.software.ibm.com/os2ddpak/index.htm

-=-> Last choice, replace the UNSUPPORTED COMPONENT for a supported
ONE.  This will depend on your motivation to use OS/2 Warp v4 <-=-=-

OS/2 WARP - SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS
Minimum Hardware Configuration. The hardware requirements for OS/2 
Warp 4 vary depending on the 
options installed and the applications you wish to run on the   
machine. Here are the minimum requirements for 
a typical computer environment: 486 or better CPU, 32MB RAM (or more),
ATAPI CD ROM, 100-300 MB HD.
OS/2 supported sound card for audio and multimedia applications
       
TIP:
If after installing an application you notice problems, edit OS2.INI 
file and remove references to the 
application.

KEY LINKS: --=> These are the best places for  OS/2 information: <=--

Information for OS/2 new users or potential ones:
A must for anyone that want to know the TRUTH about OS/2!
http://www.os2ss.com/Information/NewUsers/
http://www.honeycomb.net/os/oses/os2.htm

EZINES:
http://www.os2ezine.com
http://www.os2ss.com
http://www.edm2.com/
http://os2about.com

OS/2 FILES
http://hobbes.nmsu.edu
http://www.os2bbs.com
http://service.boulder.ibm.com/asd-bin/doc/en_us/catalog.htm
http://www.leo.org/archiv/software/os2/
ftp://merlin.itep.ru   [lss;os2warez]

OS/2 NEWS
http://www.os2ss.com/news
http://www.warpcast.com

VENDORS:
http://www.indelible-blue.com/scott/ibnews.nsf
http://www.bmtmicro.com

JAVA IDES THAT SUPPORT OS/2
Visual Age For JAVA - less than $90
http://www.software.ibm.com/ad/

Netbeans - FREE
http://www.netbeans.com

Simplicity for JAVA
http://www.datarepresentations.com/

Netrexx - FREE
http://www2.hursley.ibm.com/netrexx/

IBM ALPHAWORKS Web Site -  FREE
http://www.alphaWorks.ibm.com/formula

More information about OS/2 and JAVA
http://www.doofus.org/Java/

Check The OS/2 alternative Web Site: 
http://www.tstonramp.com/~freiheit/os2apps.shtml

WIN32 Support in OS/2:
http://www.netlabs.org/odin/

Linux/Unix and OS/2:
http://www.netlabs.org/everblue/

Check OS/2 organizations like:
http://www.netlabs.org
http://en.os2.org

Virtual Pascal
http://www.fprint.co.uk/products/virtual_pascal/

OS/2 and Sound Cards
http://www.tabi.org/timur/crystalos2.html

PKZIP v2.50
http://www.pkware.com

Remember:  Buy those applications  *IF*  you decide to continue use 
them's after 6 months TEST DRIVE

Other links:
Watcom C++ Compiler v11.0a
Nader Letter to IBM:
http://www.zdnet.com/sr/breaking/980608/980608f.html
WWW WYSIWYG editor
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/clerin/
Large OS/2 Customer list
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~meile/los2cl.html
XIMATI OS/2 Web Server - FREE
http://www.imatix.com/html/xitami/index.htm
V C++ GUI Development framework
http://www.objectcentral.com/
Warp 4  Engage
http://www2.hu-berlin.de/~h0444vnd/os2.htm
White Paper:  Advantages of OS/2 v4 over  WIN NT v4
http://www.minzdat.ch/forum/tanos/pages/merlinnt2.htm
Cable modems and OS/2 Warp v4
http://members.home.net/bhubley/cableintro.html
Blackdeath software
http://sprk.com/blackdeath/
Pillarsoft
http://www.pillarsoft.net/
DIGITAL Cameras and OS/2
http://users.uniserve.ca/~software/dcitu/index.html
Independent developer
http://en.os2.org/projects/indos2/
Config documentation
http://www.online.de/home/os2/csdp/about.htm
The OS/2 HISTORY
http://www.hartnell.cc.ca.us/student/hacnc/altos/OS2History.html
Visual PROLOG
http://www.visual-prolog.com/vip/vipinfo/freeware_version.htm
SETI
http://www.os2ss.com/seti

Like Arcade GAMES?, try M.A.M.E.

http://hobbes.nmsu.edu/cgi-bin/h-search?key=mame&pushbutton=Search
ROMS:
http://www.ArcadeAtHome.com/

Last but not least,we are seeking developers to join OS/2.  Tools 
available includes JAVA, C++ (GNU, Visual 
Age for C++ v4),  Pascal, Rexx, Netrexx. There are others.

THE OS/2 WARP DEVELOPERS TOOLKIT IS AVAILABLE AT ONE OF THE TWO URL'S
PROVIDED HERE. JOIN OS/2 NOW!

Join one of many projects at http://www.netlabs.org

Maybe, it will be WISE to buy OS/2 V4 rather than try to download it 
since it is a 250MB file.  LOTUS SS v1.1 

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
 * Origin: Usenet: mail2news@nym.alias.net (1:109/42)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: flash-bounce@nym.alias.net                        30-Aug-99 21:16:13
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 16:56:28
Subj: (2/2)  Warp_v4_SuperCharged! 

could be downloaded with EMTEC FTP and resuming file download will be 
required since many users are
connecting to those URL's. YES This message is working!...

Note:
OS/2 v4 is available from Indelible Blue..

NOTE:
If you don't want to bother downloading The OS/2 Warp 250MB file or 
LOTUS SMART SUITE V1.1 (1999) 
Edition , Goto INDELIBLE BLUE:

   * LOTUS SMART SUITE ACADEMIC VERSION IS ONLY $83  (AN648NA)
http://www.indelible-blue.com/ibapps/products.nsf/by+partnumber/AN645N
A

   * OS/2 V4 ACADEMIC VERSION IS ONLY $85 (84H7459)
http://www.indelible-blue.com/ibapps/products.nsf/by+partnumber/84H745
9)

What it takes?  The  GUTS to install OS/2 Are you so GOOD?

TIP:
USE ALT-F1 WHEN BOOTING FAILS.  IT IS NOT COMMON BUT THIS IS A GREAT
TRICK!
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
IMPORTANT NOTE:
If you find this info interesting or useful, save to a file NOW!.  You
don't know when you may need it!.  Also, 
you could make copies (or forward through email) for your friends.  
This guide will not be posted
anymore to usenet.  Maybe someone could post it from time to time...

WHAT YOU CAN DO?:
   * Forward this message to your friends. You could forward through 
an
     anonymous remailer.  More about remailers later..
   * Forward (through anonymous remailers also) to PC Newspersons
        o Techwire
        o Infoworld
        o PC World
        o ZDNet
        o Or other
   * Post (anonymously, if you want) to OS-related Newsgroups
   * Tell PC media you use, like and use OS/2
   * Ask the press for better coverage of OS/2 (ZDNet, Infoworld,
     Techweb)
   * If you are an OS expert and have capabilities and bandwidth
     resources to put online an FTP server,(someone in Europe? 
     or latin america?) with key apps, utils, etc..

Must Have utilities (THE BASICS):

A)    INFOZIP UNZIP (EQUIVALENT TO PKUNZIP.EXE)
ftp://hobbes.nmsu.edu/pub/os2/archiver/unz540x2.exe
Installation:
1)make dir \UNZIP in c: d: or whatever OS/2 partition
2)copy and extract unz540x2.exe into \unzip
3)edit config.sys and add \unzip to the path
4)remember to end \unzip reference in the path with ;

B)    FILE_MANAGER
ftp://ftp.bmtmicro.com/bmtmicro/fm2_301.zip
Installation:
1)make dir \FM2 (or whatever) in c: d: or whatever OS/2 partition
2)copy and extract fm2_301.zip \FM2 (or whatever)
3)run install.cmd

C)    CONFIG.SYS  ANALYZER OPTIMIZER
ftp://hobbes.nmsu.edu/pub/os2/util/config/cfgmt100.zip
Installation
1) Make dir \cfgmt (or whatever)
2) Copy cfgmt100.zip and extract with unzip.exe
3) run install.cmd

D)    EMX (optional, required for some utilities and GNU)
ftp://hobbes.nmsu.edu/pub/os2/dev/emx/v0.9d/emxrt.zip

Installation
1) copy emxrt.zip to c:\ (root)
2) unzip with unzip.exe (it should create a sub-dir \emx, test first 
in
other dir if you want)
3) Add \emx\bin to config.sys path, add emx\dll to config.sys library
path

E)    Sysbench 0.9.e
ftp://hobbes.nmsu.edu/pub/os2/util/benchmark/sysb094e.zip

F)    Memsize - System Resources Monitor
http://www.msen.com/~rpapo

G)    Process Commander (after basic Install, upgrade with pcfix1.zip)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
PC Newsreporters, what we can do with them?.  Ok, we can suggest to 
forward (anonymously) this message to the news person of your choice.
This will tell them how to 'tweak' OS/2 for greater performance.  Linux
user's like to tweak their systems (and press people respect that) we 
have the right to make the same to our 
OS.

You can choose anyone and send this message to make them aware that 
OS/2 can be Super-Charged.  Maybe, one of them could have the guts (or
courage) to make it and run some benchmarks against Win 98, Win 2000,
and Win NT 4.  It should be interesting to see results with  a
Super-Charged OS/2 setup (FP11, DANIS506, and HPFS386) against Win 98,
Win 2000, and Win NT 4.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Newspersons and email contact info...
You may also send a copy of this guide to your prefered newsperson to 
make he(she) aware of the OS/2 
"Tweak" and Tricks included here.  You may want to send via 
anonymous... see below...

 Name                   	email address                 
Publication/WebSite
 Infoworld              	electric@infoworld.com        	InfoWorld
 Mary Joe Foley         	mfoley@zd.com                 	Sm@rtReseller
 Tom Yager              	tyager@maxx.net               	InfoWorld
 Charles Cooper         	charles_cooper@zd.com         	ZDNET News
 Editor                 	pcmag@zd.com                  	PC Magazine 
 John Clyman            	john_clyman@zd.com            	PC Magazine 
 Michael Fitzgerald     	michael_fitzgerald@zd.com     	ZDNET
 Maria Seminerio        	maria_seminerio@zd.com        	ZDNET
 Sean Silverthorne      	sean_silverthorne@zd.com      	ZDNET
 ZDNet Benchmarks 	zdbopwebmaster@zd.com 	ZD Benchmarks
 Scott Berlinato        	scott_berinato@zd.com         	PC Week
 Claudia Graziano       	claudia_graziano@zd.com       	PC Week
 John Madden            	john_madden@zd.com            	PC Week
 James Miller           	james_miller@zd.com           	PC Magazine
 Alan Zeichick          	zeichick@camdenassociates.com TechWeb/CMP
 David Lidski           	dlidsky@zd.com               	PC Magazine
 Sharon Terdeman 	sharon_terdeman@zd.com        	PC Magazine
 Wayne Rash     	wrash@mindspring.com          	TechWeb/CMP
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How to send anonymous email and/or post anonimously to usenet:
http://www.skuz.net/potatoware/reli/UserMan.htm
http://www.replay.com/remailer/
http://mail2news.cjb.net/
ttp://www.mute.dircon.co.uk/remailers.html
http://www.metcorp.com/sean/remail.html
http://www.skuz.net/potatoware/reli/UserMan.htm
NEWSGROUP: alt.privacy.anon-server
thread--=> List of Reliable Remailers --=> Updated daily!

NOTE: SOME REMAILERS ARE UP/AND DOWN EASILY. Test First!, and test 
with
dummy messages to some dummy newsgroup.  

::
request-remailing-to: remailer@replay.com

::
request-remailing-to: remailer@xxxxx.com

::
Anon-post-to:newsgroup
or 
Anon-to: john_doe@columbia.net

##
subject:whatever
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Remailers reliability and info...
alt.privacy.anon-server

Attention if you receive this doc, please forward to a fellow worker 
who might be interested in this info...

INTERESTING TIP:
You can forward this message from usenet to your own email account 
(Pronews forward, right side) and 'Edit Message as New' with
Communicator 4.61 and repost to usenet if you want or forward to a
friend or to a newsperson.

Chiao!

Extra:
modify config.sys
SET MENUSFOLLOWPOINTER=YES

and you will have a more functional mouse pointer..ala Win 95!

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
 * Origin: Usenet: mail2news@nym.alias.net (1:109/42)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               30-Aug-99 12:19:21
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 19:58:00
Subj: Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2

From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste)

On 30 Aug 1999 16:17:05 GMT, cawort01@spam.netcom.com recycled some holes
into the following pattern:

>In <38053570.398686154@news-server>, sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den
Beste) writes:
>>On Sun, 29 Aug 1999 23:44:44 -0400, Brad Barclay recycled some holes into
>>the following pattern:
>>
>>>"David H. McCoy" wrote:
>>>
>>>> What? I also left out Dan's statement claiming that OS/2 users made
>>>> PostRoad the number one email client. Surely, you didn't miss this? Now,
>>>> clearly, by this statement they are perceiving that they are "head of the
>>>> pack". Yet, they are bowing out.  This says to me that the OS/2 software
>>>> market and making a living are indeed, mutually exclusive.
>>>
>>>    How may E-Mail clients do you use?  Probably the same number as
everyone
>>>else:  one.  And how much opportunity is there for upgrading the E-Mail
client?
>>
>>I use Agent for my private email and Eudora for my work email. Qualcomm has
>>been steadily releasing new versions of Eudora for quite some time, with all
>>manner of improvements in the user interface and internal structure. For
>>instance, one of the recent releases of the WIN32 version implemented use of
>>threads, so that you could download messages without locking up the user
>>interface. (grumble damned Macintosh mumble grumble)
>>
>
>LOL,  too funny.  PMMail/2 has been threaded for ages.  Poor you for 
>suffering so long.  PMMail/2 sends and checks simultaneously.
>
>I suppose the innovation of Eudora light for the mac is so important that the 
latest
>version is years old?  i'd say that proves Brad's point.

The latest version was released about 3 months ago. The version before that
was perhaps 9 months earlier.

No, Brad is wrong. Development on Eudora continues.

>>>The mail protocols, POP3 and SMTP have been stable for years, and certainly
>>>aren't changing.  There comes a time when there isn't any further you can
really
>>>go with a piece of software.
>>
>>Perhaps so, but few email programs have hit that limit yet. Certainly none
>>that I've used. I can think of things I'd like added to every email program
>>I know of.
>>
>
>Get a real email client.  and just think PMMail is available for windows
users.
>
>chris

Thanks, all things being equal I like Agent a great deal. The ability to use
regular expressions in my killfile is a great boon. I've got a rule, for
instance, which says "Any message whose subject line contains only upper
case letters but no lower case letters gets put into the trashbin". That
cuts way down on the spam, since a lot of them SHOUT ON THEIR SUBJECT LINES.

Agent is also extremely reliable.

I'm pretty sure I did try PMMail once, but was completely unimpressed with
it.

>
>
>>I like Agent a lot, but I can think of things I wish they'd add. (Not much
>>likelihood of it, though.)
>>
>
>why not?  with the billions of supposed windows users out there clamoring for 

>a better app.  that statement just doesn't make any sense.  They should add
features
>and increase market share.  I'd hope that a feature you thought would be
attractive
>would be also considered useful to other folks.

Unfortunately, the company which developed Agent was bought out by someone
else, and the second company shows no interest in pursuing it further.

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
              -- Calvin

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: cawort01@spam.netcom.com                          30-Aug-99 19:54:16
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 19:58:00
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: cawort01@spam.netcom.com

Hey Steven,

you just asked the question of the month.

Care to answer tim?

I thought not.




In <3807b080.430195219@news-server>, sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste) 
writes:
>On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 15:01:22 +0200, Martin Nisshagen recycled some holes
>into the following pattern:
>
>>I also can't see why some people is trying to blame Tim for this. He is only
>>_reporting_ the news, not the one who has stopped the development of them.
>
>I think the question is not so much him reporting the news, nor his taking
>it graciously, as the fact that it doesn't square with his public reaction
>and castigation of Stardock when it did something like the same thing only
>less so.
>
>Innoval is completely abandoning development and support of all commercial
>OS/2 software and Tim says "It's a shame but our best wishes go with you."
>Stardock continues to develops OS/2 software but also develops WIN32
>software and Tim says "You're a money-grubbing bastard and you're exploiting
>OS/2 users." Why the difference?
>
>--------
>Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
>Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste
>
>"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
>              -- Calvin

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
 * Origin: Usenet: University of Louisville (1:109/42)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: cawort01@spam.netcom.com                          30-Aug-99 20:01:12
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 19:58:00
Subj: Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2

From: cawort01@spam.netcom.com

You should read my messages more carefully, I was specificallly referring to 
PMMail/2 which I use regularly, I only mentioned the windoze version passing.
Plus I was referring specifically to the comments Steven made.  I can spell so 

what you need/want is different from what I require.  The OS/2 version handles
all of what Steven referred to flawlessly.  You bring up completely different
items.
The OS/2 version works great.   


chris


In <37caafe8.4123739@news.wxs.nl>, rerbert@wxs.nl (Gerben Bergman) writes:
>When we last saw our heroes, cawort01@spam.netcom.com was pontificating
>endlessly about "Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2", and on occasion even
>making sense:
>
>| >Perhaps so, but few email programs have hit that limit yet. Certainly none
>| >that I've used. I can think of things I'd like added to every email
program
>| >I know of.
>| 
>| Get a real email client. And just think PMMail is available for Windows
>| users.
>
>PMMail 98's spell checker is horribly slow and queries insensibly, its
>editor isn't WYSIWYG, it can't display quoted lines with a different color,
>message introductions cannot be changed, reading in folders takes way too
>much time, toolbars are not customizable, change the quotation prefix and
>the thing starts wrapping quoted lines, opening HTML-formatted messages
>regularly causes crashes, etc. These are all annoying quirks which Agent
>solves elegantly.
>
>Perhaps you should inform yourself a little before trashing someone else's
>choice of mailer.
>

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
 * Origin: Usenet: University of Louisville (1:109/42)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: donnelly@tampabay.rr.com                          30-Aug-99 20:17:24
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 21:34:14
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: donnelly@tampabay.rr.com (Buddy Donnelly)

On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 15:08:43, esther@bitranch.com (Esther Schindler) a 
Ścrit dans un message:

snippercized
> 
> I still think it's a class act. It makes the product available to 
> those who want to use it.

Oh, I'll stop a moment and quibble on that point, thanks. (Hot out, ain't 
it?)

Well, it would have been classier to post the source. 

As it is, Innoval's partial action only makes the product AS IT STANDS 
TODAY available for those who want to test it. 

Should conditions change, for instance should it fail to be 100% Y2K just 
to pick a looming possibility, what's someone to do who has begun using it 
for all their mail, sorting stuff into folders and making the program's 
interface more personalized, and all? They'll just have to dump it.

On the other hand, were Innoval to rescue their shall we say "debatable" 
standing in this community by not just leaving the Halloween candy on the 
porch in a big cardboard box, but by wrapping each piece in the source 
code, even in a GNU thingie, they would be giving us a Fighting Chance of 
staying alive staying alive woo wooo woo wooop staying alive.

And whoever there is among those smarter than I who can take that code, 
suss it out, and say, well sir here's where the gol-blimey thing was 
gol-blimey screwy from day one, or whatever, and issue his/her little Fix 
for it, might even be able to charge a few bucks to each of us for the 
fixkit.

It would be a neat experiment. 

As committed as I am to Nick Knight's ongoing work with making MR2Ice even 
better, I'm a registered user of PostRoad products and would enjoy having 
the chance to promote the wider support of anyone brave enough to tackle 
something like this.

And if things change even more, and Innoval decides one day to come back 
into OS2land, their stock with us would be very high indeed. They would 
naturally be coming out with brand new product, based on brand new code, 
and my theory is they wouldn't be hurt a bit by having the old version 
banging around for free, as some tin-hearted accountants would be worrying 
about.


Good luck,

Buddy

Buddy Donnelly
donnelly@tampabay.rr.com


--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: malstrom@emily.oit.umass.edu                      30-Aug-99 16:37:23
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 21:34:14
Subj: Re: vmware mistake

From: JM <malstrom@emily.oit.umass.edu>

Mike Ruskai <thannymeister@spambegone.yahoo.com> wrote:
: On 29 Aug 1999 22:46:38 -0500, JM wrote:

: [snip]

:>Since when has David's, AKA Kelly Robinson's intentions been well meaning??

: Am I correct in assuming that you mean Kelly Robinson is an alias for
: David H. McCoy?

: If so, that would explain a lot.  

No, as some other posters have pointed out I'm referring to David P 
Cole AKA Xerophyte AKA Infinity Rising AKA Kelly Robinson

-Jason

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: malstrom@emily.oit.umass.edu                      30-Aug-99 16:49:06
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 21:34:14
Subj: Re: vmware mistake

From: JM <malstrom@emily.oit.umass.edu>

Esther Schindler <esther@bitranch.com> wrote:
: On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 03:46:38, JM <malstrom@wilde.oit.umass.edu> wrote:
: | Gee, when I stayed relentlessly upbeat about Win32-os/2 you got on my
case.

: Yup, I did. There's a difference between "seeing only what you want to
: see" and maintaining an upbeat attitude. "That's not lipstick on my 
: husband's collar," "Gerstner meant _primarily_ corporate users when he
: said that, he wasn't intending to cut out the SOHO user," and "that 
: salesman wouldn't lie to me" are all examples of the mistakes people 
: make when they want to see a situation as other than it is.

So, why haven't you seen the original posters continual defemation of 
OS/2 and IBM?

: I'm a great believer in observing reality, whether or not I like the 
: way it looks. _Then_ I can choose to give more credit to the positive.

One person's reality is another's fantasy.

: | Since when has David's, AKA Kelly Robinson's intentions been well
meaning??

: Since when are you a mind-reader? I don't claim to know the intentions
: of any of the participants here (other than my own). The only thing by
: which I can judge are the participants' words... and, in some cases, 
: their actions.

Well since you seen to haved missed something here, why don't you take some 
time and rummage through dejanews and take a look at all of his "well 
meaning" mistakes.  Maybe then you'll see why the people in this 
newsgroup don't kindly correct his mistakes about OS/2.  It may be hard 
since he changes email addresses like socks.  If you want I could send 
you a list of addresses he might be found under

-Jason

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: malstrom@emily.oit.umass.edu                      30-Aug-99 16:53:13
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 21:34:14
Subj: Re: vmware mistake

From: JM <malstrom@emily.oit.umass.edu>

Esther Schindler <esther@bitranch.com> wrote:
: On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 01:14:45, tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith) wrote:
: |  I'm flaming him
: | because in that apology, he said ...

: But why flame at all?

: Why not simply correct the error? Why give someone the satisfaction of
: raising your ire?

Most of us here are of the male gender and we take satisfaction in 
sending witty little flames in the direction of our detractors.  I really 
think it might release endorphines into our brain or something.  

-Jason

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
 * Origin: Origin Line 1 Goes Here (1:109/42)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               30-Aug-99 18:01:08
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 21:34:15
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Dave Tholen wrote:
> 
> Brad Wardell writes:
> 
> > Not much left to discuss. <grin>
> 
> [...] such as your lie about [...]

Whose lie Dave?  You wouldn't happen to be trying to talk directly to Brad
again would you?  That's a very useless and silly thing to do because he
has kill-filed you.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
 * Origin: Usenet: Time Warner Road Runner - Binghamton NY (1:109/42)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: rerbert@wxs.nl                                    30-Aug-99 23:59:07
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 21:34:15
Subj: Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2

From: rerbert@wxs.nl (Gerben Bergman)

On 30 Aug 1999 20:01:25 GMT, an entity calling itself
"cawort01@spam.netcom.com" uttered the following:

| >PMMail 98's spell checker is horribly slow and queries insensibly, its
| >editor isn't WYSIWYG, it can't display quoted lines with a different color,
| >message introductions cannot be changed, reading in folders takes way too
| >much time, toolbars are not customizable, change the quotation prefix and
| >the thing starts wrapping quoted lines, opening HTML-formatted messages
| >regularly causes crashes, etc. These are all annoying quirks which Agent
| >solves elegantly.
| 
| You should read my messages more carefully, I was specifically referring to
| PMMail/2 which I use regularly, I only mentioned the windoze version
| passing.

Then tell me, can PMMail/2 do the things mentioned above which PMMail 98
cannot?

| Plus I was referring specifically to the comments Steven made.  I can spell
| so what you need/want is different from what I require.  The OS/2 version
| handles all of what Steven referred to flawlessly.  You bring up completely
| different items.

You dismissed Agent as being not a "real email client" because it lacks
certain features that PMMail has. This completely ignores the fact that at
the same time Agent has many features that PMMail *doesn't* have, features
which I personally found so desirable that I switched from PMMail to Agent
to get them. You're not looking at the whole picture here.

It's like a Ferrari owner complaining about his car's small trunk, after
which someone says to him: "Hey, why don't you get a *real* car? I can fit
those suitcases into my Lada easily!"

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               30-Aug-99 18:08:00
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 21:34:15
Subj: Re: Attitudes and apologies 

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Dave Tholen wrote:
> 
> Then perhaps you should talk to Brad Wardell.  [...]

Perhaps you should stick to the topic at hand, instead of trying to drive
every topic you enter into the cesspool.  Not everything in this group is
about you and Brad.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
 * Origin: Usenet: Time Warner Road Runner - Binghamton NY (1:109/42)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               30-Aug-99 15:07:03
  To: All                                               30-Aug-99 21:34:15
Subj: Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2

From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste)

On 30 Aug 1999 20:01:25 GMT, cawort01@spam.netcom.com recycled some holes
into the following pattern:

>
>You should read my messages more carefully, I was specificallly referring to 
>PMMail/2 which I use regularly, I only mentioned the windoze version passing.
>Plus I was referring specifically to the comments Steven made.  I can spell
so 
>what you need/want is different from what I require.  The OS/2 version
handles
>all of what Steven referred to flawlessly.  You bring up completely different 
items.
>The OS/2 version works great.   
>
>
>chris

Are you sure it permits regular expressions in kill filters (which Agent
permits), or that it can filter based on the contents of an article (as
opposed to just the header information including the subject line, which
Agent doesn't permit but I wish it did)?

A "regular expression" is a miniature program for a state machine, said
language originally defined for the program "grep" back on Unix.

Here's an example of one of my filters:

   subject: =%{[^a-z]+}

What this says is that anything which doesn't include at least one lower
case letter in its "subject" goes into my trashbin. That means that any
message whose subject line is all capital letters (as so many advertising
spams are, BECAUSE THEY'RE SO EXCITED!!!!!!!) hits the bit bucket.

Here's another example:

   not any-recipient: sdenbes1@san.rr.com

What this means is that if I receive mail and I'm not explicitly on the
address list for "To:" or "CC:", then no matter what those fields do say it
goes into the trashbin. So those "blind CC" messages where the "from" and
"to" fields are the same, or with "recipient list suppressed", are trashed
automatically.

Does PMMail offer this degree of flexibility?



...or is it just the fact that it runs on OS/2, so it must by definition be
superior?

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
              -- Calvin

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         30-Aug-99 22:44:02
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:24
Subj: Re: 1.66 hours left [no text]

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Marty writes:

>>>>>
 
>>>> The series of "no text" countdown messages is from one of the people
>>>> Brad Wardell considers "reasonable".
 
>>> Is it more reasonable to waste space and bandwidth responding to such a
>>> thick-skulled arrogant individual?
 
>> On what basis do you call it a waste of space and bandwidth to counter
>> Brad Wardell's lies?

> You seem to be having delusions of granduer.

Balderdash.

> I was referring to you Professor.

Illogical, given that I haven't been wasting space and bandwidth.  But
that's rather ironic, coming from someone who used bandwidth to perform
a useless countdown.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         30-Aug-99 22:45:04
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:24
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Marty writes:

> Why am I not surprised?

More of your illogic.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         30-Aug-99 22:54:19
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:24
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Marty writes:

>>>>>>> [some more stupid crap to Brad Wardell]

>>>>>> What's allegedly stupid about it, Marty?

>>>>>>> Who are you talking to Dave?

>>>>>> The readers, Marty.

>>>>> Are the readers named Brad?

>>>> Irrelevant, Marty.  The readers didn't make the erroneous claims.

>>> Irrelevant Dave.

>> On the contrary, it's quite relevant.

> Incorrect.

On what basis do you make that claim, Marty?

>>> You're addressing Brad directly.

>> On what basis do you call it "directly", Marty?

> On the basis that you wrote ", Brad", Dave.

That simply indicates the author of the claim, Marty.

> Do you wish to deny this fact

I'll deny that it proves your claim.

> or change the definition of "responding directly"?

Unnecessary.

> Either way you're wrong.

On what basis do you make that claim, Marty?

>>> I see you chose to ignore the rest of the post.

>> Incorrect.  I addressed it previously.  You chose to delete my
>> response.

> Because it was irrelevant,

On what basis do you call it irrelevant, Marty?

> inappropriate,

On what basis do you call it inappropriate, Marty?

> and didn't answer the question.

On what basis do you say that, Marty?

>>> Why am I not surprised?

>> Perhaps it's your illogic getting in the way again.

>>> Here is the context back for you in case you missed it:

>>>>> Brad can only see what other people quote from you.
>>>>>
>>>>> Still verbally masturbating, talking to your right hand?
>>>>> You're gonna go blind.

>> Why not restore my response while you're at it, Marty?

> Because it was irrelevant,

On what basis do you call it irrelevant, Marty?

> inappropriate,

On what basis do you call it inappropriate, Marty?

> and didn't answer the question.

On what basis do you say that, Marty?

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         30-Aug-99 22:56:09
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:24
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Marty writes:

>> Brad Wardell writes:

>>> Not much left to discuss. <grin>
 
>> [...] such as your lie about [...]

> Whose lie Dave?

Having more reading comprehension problems, Marty?

> You wouldn't happen to be trying to talk directly to Brad
> again would you?

Since when are the readers just Brad, Marty?

> That's a very useless and silly thing to do because he
> has kill-filed you.

Illogical, given that my evidence is quite useful and not silly at all.
The silliness was all Brad's.

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         30-Aug-99 22:51:28
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:24
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Marty writes:

>>>>>>>>>> Karel Jansens writes [to Brad Wardell]:

>>>>>>>>>>> Just one more thing: you _do_ realise that to all the participants 
and
>>>>>>>>>>> lurkers in this group you are representing Stardock Systems, don't
>>>>>>>>>>> you? I mean, I can make a complete arse of myself and Dave Tholen
can
>>>>>>>>>>> be as obnoxious as he wants to be, neither of us are going to lose
>>>>>>>>>>> even a cent in that. But if you should start painting yourself as
a
>>>>>>>>>>> prejudiced bigot, don't you think that would reflect in your
business?

>>>>>>>>>> I've already been told privately that Stardock products would be
>>>>>>>>>> avoided because of Brad's behavior here.  One person even told me
>>>>>>>>>> that he emailed that statement directly to Brad.  Brad just treated
>>>>>>>>>> him the same way he treats me.

>>>>>>>>> His loss, not Brad's.

>>>>>>>> Incorrect.

>>>>>>> How do you know Dave?

>>>>>> Because I was told.

>>>>> And I was told not by someone in a high position at Stardock.

>>>> Someone who is a known liar, is known to have a short memory, and has
>>>> a motive to deny the evidence.

>>> Like you perhaps?

>> Brad Wardell is not like me.

> No argument there.

Good.

> I'm glad you see my point.

Why are you so glad that I recognize that Brad Wardell is not like me?

>>> I've seen no evidence of this from Brad.

>> Try reading his posting in which he claims that there are 1600 postings
>> in other newsgroups with people calling me a kook.  Then read my
>> rebuttal.

> I have.

Then you have seen evidence that Brad is a liar.  Why did you claim
otherwise?

>>>>> Hmm... who should I believe?

>>>> Is it logical to believe someone who is known to lie, Marty?

>>>>>>> I didn't know you were Brad's accountant.

>>>>>> Illogic, given that I don't need to be Brad's accountant to know that
>>>>>> Stardock has lost business as a result of Brad's behavior here.

>>>>> Bottom line -- Is it hurting Stardock?

>>>> At some level.

>>> Hurting them implies they are noticing it.

>> No it doesn't.

> Hurting them implies financial loss which they would notice.

Not necessarily, but in this case, the financial loss was explained
directly, so he should have noticed.

>>> If they noticed it, they would have dealt with it because it would be
>>> harming their business.

>> Incorrect, because it is harming their business and they still haven't
>> dealt with it.

> Prove it, if you think you can.

Simple:  Brad hasn't changed his behavior.

>>> It is not.

>> Illogical.  People have also claimed that IBM was harming OS/2, but IBM
>> never dealt with those.

> This is completely unrelated.

Incorrect, given that it demonstrates another case of your illogic above.

>>>>> Brad's answer is a resounding No.

>>>> Brad is a known liar.

>>> How ironic.

>> What's allegedly ironic about it, Marty?

> The fact that you are a known liar.

On what basis do you make that claim, Marty?

>>>>>>>>>>> I won't even answer to the rest of that paragraph. Anybody who
thinks
>>>>>>>>>>> that mob justice is an example of "societal norms" is way beyond
me
>>>>>>>>>>> anyway.

>>>>>>>>>> Bravo!  But it's a wonderful example of Brad's brand of reasoning.

>>>>>>>>> Yeah.  Realism.

>>>>>>>> More like illogic.

>>>>>>> More like realism.

>>>>>> More like illogic.

>>>>> More like realism.

>>>> More like illogic.

>>> More like a college professor acting like a 3 year old.

>> Are you a college professor, Marty?

> No,

Then your remark is irrelevant.

> and that's precisely my point.

Your point is that you're being irrelevant?

> I'm glad you agree.

Where is this alleged agreement, Marty?

>>> Why am I not surprised?

>> Perhaps it's your illogic at work again.

> Or your impression of a 3 year old at work again.

Actually, I was using your impression of a 3 year old.

>>> More like realism.

>> More like illogic.

> More like realism.

More like illogic.

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         30-Aug-99 22:58:26
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:24
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Gerben Bergman writes:

> Marty wrote:

>>> By the way, Gerben recently replied directly to me, despite allegedly
>>> having me in his kill file.
 
>> Therefore Brad will also?  Illogical.

> In Dave's one-track universe everything works one way, namely the way he
> thinks it works.

Wrong again, Gerben.

> If I choose to check out one of his responses because I *knew* what part
> of my message he was going to respond to and I wanted to see what he had
> to say about it, that means I'm probably lying about my use of a killfile
> as is everyone else who claims to have him killfiled.

I never said that, Gerben.  I've simply noted that everyone else who has
claimed to have me killfiled has read and responded directly to one of my
postings, which proves that a killfile doesn't guarantee that the person
won't see my articles.

> The rigidity in his thinking process never ceases to amaze me.

Your illogic ceased amazing me some time ago, Gerben.

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From: esther@bitranch.com                               30-Aug-99 23:11:29
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:24
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: esther@bitranch.com (Esther Schindler)

Buddy, you might like it if Innoval posted the source. But your 
quibble doesn't take into account that the company may have very good 
reasons to *not* do so?

Don't look gift horses in the mouth. They could have said, "Screw you,
we're cancelling all product support." Instead, they gave the OS/2 
community a gift.

--Esther

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From: rerbert@wxs.nl                                    31-Aug-99 01:08:04
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:24
Subj: Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2

From: rerbert@wxs.nl (Gerben Bergman)

Lean a little closer to the plant, Steven C. Den Beste, and tell me about
"Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2"...

| >The OS/2 version works great.
| 
| Are you sure it permits regular expressions in kill filters (which Agent
| permits),

PMMail has two types of filters: "simple" and "complex". The "complex"
option lets you create filters with SouthSoft's own "Internet Communication
Search Language" (ICSL), which "uses Boolean (AND, OR, and NOT) connectors
and parenthetical groupings to allow extremely powerful filters, completely
under your control". So the answer to your question is probably "yes".

| or that it can filter based on the contents of an article (as opposed to
| just the header information including the subject line, which Agent doesn't
| permit but I wish it did)?

Yup; PMMail can filter based on the contents of the header, body, and whole
message, on attachment names, as well as on the To:, From:, Cc:, and
Subject: fields.

| Does PMMail offer this degree of flexibility?
| 
|  ...or is it just the fact that it runs on OS/2, so it must by definition be
| superior?

I think filtering is the wrong area to praise Agent over PMMail, Steven.

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         30-Aug-99 23:00:24
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:24
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Marty writes:

>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes [...] the interpretation is logical, Brad.

>>>>>>>>>> So much for your alleged restoration of context, Marty.

>>>>>>>>> Are those not your words, Dave?

>>>>>>>> They're the dictionary's words, Marty.

>>>>>>> Are these not the words that you wrote?

>>>>>> I see you chose to ignore the rest of my response, otherwise
>>>>>> you'd have no logical basis for your question.

>>>>> Are these not the words that you wrote?

>>>> I see you still chose to ignore the rest of my response, otherwise
>>>> you'd have no logical basis for your question.

>>> Are these not the words that you wrote?

>> I see you still chose to ignore the rest of my response, otherwise
>> you'd have no logical basis for your question.

>>> I see you've still failed to answer the question.

>> Incorrect.  You failed to see my answer.

> Are these not the words that you wrote?

I see you still chose to ignore the rest of my response, otherwise
you'd have no logical basis for your question.

> It's not a difficult question Dave.

It's not difficult to see my answer, Marty.

> You've failed to answer it appropriately.

Incorrect, Marty.  You failed to demonstrate the alleged
inappropriateness.

> An appropriate answer is "yes" or "no."

My previous response was already appropriate.

> I have not seen either of these words in your response.

I have not see you demonstrate the alleged inappropriateness of my
previous response.

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From: OS2Guy@WarpCity.com                               30-Aug-99 16:23:11
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:24
Subj: MSWolf in sheep's clothing and nothing more.

From: Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com>

cawort01@spam.netcom.com wrote:

> Hey Steven,
>
> you just asked the question of the month.
>
> Care to answer tim?
>
> I thought not.

As usual, you think like an idiot.  Are YOU using Stardock's
Warp 5 product today?  The very same product Stardock
took to these newsgroups back in November 1998 and claimed
they would be exclusively providing to the OS/2 community?

I thought not.  Please, someone enlighten us all.  Give us
a release date for Stardock's vaporware Warp2000  (Warp 5)
product.   If not,  please explain why we were all subjected
to more than 9 months of Stardock "We're the Number One
OS/2 Software Developer so buy our faded OS/2 products
because we're not making any more for you" vaporware hype.

There will be no Stardock Warp2000 (Warp5) product despite
the never-ending spam provided by Wardell & Co.  Look
closely and you'll find that Stardock employees won't use
their own OS/2 products.  But they'll gladly take your OS/2
money to help develop more Microsoft-only software.

MSWolf In sheep's clothing and nothing more.

Tim Martin
The OS/2 Guy
Warp City
http://warpcity.com
"E-ride the wild surf to Warp City!"



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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         30-Aug-99 23:07:03
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:24
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Marty writes:

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> You have some emotional need to repost material without adding
>>>>>>>> anything new, Marty?

>>>>>>> You have some emotional need to address Brad Wardell directly when
>>>>>>> he's not listening to you?

>>>>>> Who said I'm addressing Brad Wardell directly, Marty?

>>>>> You did, every time you said ", Brad" try reading what you write once
>>>>> in a while.

>>>> Incorrect.  I never called it direct.

>>> It doesn't matter what you call it Dave.

>> On the contrary, it does.

> What you call it is irrelevant to what it is.

But I didn't call it something, Marty; you did.  You were trying to put
words into my mouth.  How ironic.

> Doth not a rose by any other name smell as sweet?

Irrelevant, Marty.

> Or in this case, feces smell any more or less repulsive?

Your feces.

>>> It is direct if you address him directly.

>> The key word here is "if".

> No, the key word is direct.

Incorrect, given that the premise has not been established.

> Try to focus for a change.

Practice what you preach, Marty.

> You have addressed him directly in adding ", Brad" to several statements.

That simply indicates the author of the statements to which I'm responding,
Marty.

> Are you going to deny doing this

I'm going to deny your interpretation of "direct", Marty.

> or are you going to attempt to change the definition of "directly
> addressing"?

No change is necessary on my part.  You're the one trying to do that,
by putting words into my mouth.  How ironic.

> Either way you are incorrect.

Wrong again, Marty.

>>>> By the way, Gerben recently replied directly to me, despite allegedly
>>>> having me in his kill file.

>>> Therefore Brad will also?

>> Who said anything about "will", Marty?  The appropriate word is "can".

> Why would you respond directly to someone if you're not particularly
> expecting them to respond back?

Who said I'm addressing Brad Wardell directly, Marty?

> That's illogical Dave.

On the contrary, it's quite logical, Marty.  The alleged use of a killfile
should not be taken as the opportunity to post with impunity whatever you
want about the person killfiled.

> [In spite of my highest hopes, I fully expect you to respond,

Pointing out your illogic once again.

> hence I address you directly.]

What you want to call it is irrelevant, Marty.

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         30-Aug-99 23:11:08
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:24
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [time's up] [context guard]

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Marty writes:

>>>>>>>>>>>> You just indicated [...] responses to me [...] will be
unimportant.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree.

>>>>>>>>>> Posting another unimportant response, eh Marty?

>>>>>>>>> How ironic.

>>>>>>>> On what basis do you make that claim, Marty?

>>>>>>> See what I mean?

>>>>>> I see you didn't answer my question.  It figures.

>>>>> See what I mean?

>>>> I see you still didn't answer my question.  It figures.

>>> See what I mean?

>> I see you still didn't answer my question.  It figures.

> See what I mean?

I see you still didn't answer my question.  It figures.

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         30-Aug-99 23:08:27
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:24
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Marty writes:

>>>>>>>>>>>> You're the one arguing with [...] a jerk, Brad.

>>>>>>>>>> So much for your alleged restoration of context, Marty.  Hypocrite.

>>>>>>>>> Are these not your words Dave?

>>>>>>>> They're the dictionary's words, Marty.

>>>>>>> Are those not the words you wrote, Dave?

>>>>>> I see you chose to ignore the rest of my response, otherwise you
>>>>>> would have no logical basis for your question.

>>>>> Are those not the words you wrote, Dave?

>>>> I see you still chose to ignore the rest of my response, otherwise you
>>>> would have no logical basis for your question.

>>> Are these not the words that you wrote?

>> I see you still chose to ignore the rest of my response, otherwise you
>> would have no logical basis for your question.

>>> I see you've still failed to answer the question.

>> Incorrect.  You failed to see my answer.  Try reading before deleting,
>> Marty.

> Are these not the words that you wrote?

I see you still chose to ignore the rest of my response, otherwise you
would have no logical basis for your question.

> It's not a difficult question Dave.

It's not difficult to see my previous answer, Marty.

> You've failed to answer it appropriately.

You've failed to comprehend my previous answer.

> An appropriate answer is "yes" or "no."

My previous answer was already appropriate.

> I have not seen either of these words in your response.

Doesn't change the fact that my previous response was already appropriate,
Marty.

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         30-Aug-99 23:13:04
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:24
Subj: Re: Attitudes and apologies 

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Marty writes:

>> Then perhaps you should talk to Brad Wardell.  [...]

> Perhaps you should stick to the topic at hand,

I was, Marty.

> instead of trying to drive every topic you enter into the cesspool.

Irrelevant, given that I wasn't doing so.  But that's rather ironic,
coming from someone driving a topic into the cesspool.

> Not everything in this group is about you and Brad.

Irrelevant, given that I didn't say everything is, Marty.  Doesn't
change the fact that my response dealt with the topic at hand.

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         30-Aug-99 23:10:25
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:24
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [rhetorical]

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Gerben Bergman writes:

> Karel Jansens wrote:

>>> Why, thank you Dave. That's the nicest thing you've ever said to me.
 
>> Aha! Got you, Gerben. I thought you had Dave killfiled.

> I do, but I reserve the right to check out one of his messages every now and
> then when I'm interested in his reaction to something I stated.

And yet Marty still thinks it's illogical to respond to people who allegedly
have me killfiled.

> Perhaps that makes me illogical and inconsistent, but I'd rather be that
> than "logical" and "consistent" in the Tholen sense. YMMV.

That's your problem, Gerben.  You also like to play "infantile games", by
your own admission.

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From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         30-Aug-99 23:15:07
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:24
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Steven C. Den Beste writes:

> Innoval is completely abandoning development and support of all commercial
> OS/2 software and Tim says "It's a shame but our best wishes go with you."
> Stardock continues to develops OS/2 software but also develops WIN32
> software and Tim says "You're a money-grubbing bastard and you're exploiting
> OS/2 users." Why the difference?

Steven Den Beste comments on articles posted by others in this newsgroup
that have nothing to do with OS/2, yet he posts articles in this newsgroup
that have nothing to do with OS/2.  Why the difference?

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From: esther@bitranch.com                               30-Aug-99 23:29:08
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:24
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: esther@bitranch.com (Esther Schindler)

On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 16:22:40, "os2pal" <gnrm@earth.gh.net> wrote:
| Surprise? Are you under the assumption that their products were the pillars
| of intelligence?

Products have intelligence? You mean, someone perfected artificial 
intelligence and *didn't tell me*?!

Seriously, I do understand your point. I'm not speaking to any given 
vendor's application quality. What makes one software package "better"
than another is a matter that's very much in the eye of the beholder, 
and is the reason that the OS/2 community could support three fine 
email clients for all these years. (I chose MR/2 ICE for myself, but I
like features of the other packages, too.) I'm not trying to review 
Innoval's products, here; I've done that for pay elsewhere.

However, there's a distinct difference between "I never liked their 
stuff anyway" and "I thought their support sucked" (which you didn't 
explicitly say), and "they aren't able to keep the doors open, at 
least with this product/os division."

os2pal, I've dealt with more OS/2 ISVs than has anybody else. I've 
listened to their personal and business concerns since 1992. I've seen
some of them succeed, and I've seen some fail. I've met some that are 
(IMNSHO) brainless twits, some that are technically savvy but lack the
business sense of a sparrow, and some that chose a non-viable part of 
the OS/2 application universe. (We've had some really excellent 
graphics applications to choose from, for instance, but without a 
significant Framemaker-type DTP or GoLive-like Web site development 
app, there's nothing on which to peg the graphics you create.)

Some of those ISVs failed because they didn't know how to run a 
business. Some of them extended the scope of their business, to 
include Windows or Java or whatever else seemed appropriate to them. 
Some quit OS/2 entirely, and some left the software business. This 
isn't different from any other section of our industry or, for that 
matter, any other industry. (Teen idol Bobby Sherman is now an LA cop.
Does that mean that the music business is dead?)

While I never personally chose an Innoval product for my own use, I 
have never, for a moment, considered Dan Porter to be less than a man 
of integrity, who believed in his company, in OS/2, and in serving his
customers. (Before you point it out: Sure, they weren't perfect. 
Neither am I, and I suspect neither are you. Business is hard.) He 
wanted OS/2 to be a success, and he wanted Innoval to succeed along 
with it. He gave it his best shot. It didn't work.

| Nah, why post unless there is a hidden agenda behind it? If you'd read the
| post carefully...

Sheesh. Dan has enough integrity to be honest with the OS/2 community.
If he can make a success of his other products, then more power to 
him.

(Strangely enough, this puts me in the position of agreeing with Tim 
Martin. I suspect we'll get over it. <grin>)

| > --Esther
| >   who had to turn away from her 100%-OS/2 business, too
| 
| <chuckle>  Had a hunch you'll see the light sooner or later <another
| chuckle>

I have no idea what you intended to communicate in that sentence, but 
it sure didn't make it across to me.

--Esther

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From: dcasey@ibm.net                                    30-Aug-99 18:15:26
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:24
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: dcasey@ibm.net (Dan Casey)

In article <37db7676.429159568@news.kraftwerk.net>,
forkd4nisse@dtek.chalmers.se (Martin Nisshagen) wrote:
>
>I agree with Donnelly. Open source would be the best thing in this case.
>

I agree that it would be nice to have the source code available.
However, I would guess that because InnoVal is still doing
development, Sales and support for other Internet products, and these
products may very well contain some of the proprietary code that
InnoVal developed and used in the applications that they have now
released to the public for free. If this be the case, I can't blame
Dan for not wanting to "open source" these applications.

I haven't had any sort of direct contact with Dan Porter, so I can't
say, with any certainty,  what and why he is doing this as he is. My
guess is that he simply wanted to "give" these apps to the OS/2 users
in appreciation of their support for him. Pity it wasn't enough to
keep him going with OS/2 projects.


--
**************************************************************
*  Dan Casey                                                 *
*  President                                                 *
*  V.O.I.C.E. (Virtual OS/2 International Consumer Education *
*  http://www.os2voice.org                                   *
*  Abraxas on IRC                                            *
*  http://members.iquest.net/~dcasey                         *
*  Charter Associate member, Team SETI                       *
*  Warpstock 99 in Atlanta  http://www.warpstock.org         *
**************************************************************
*  E-Mail (subject: Req. PGP Key) for Public Key             *
**************************************************************

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From: dmcbride@no.tower.spam.to.org                     30-Aug-99 23:35:13
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:24
Subj: Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2

From: "Darin McBride" <dmcbride@no.tower.spam.to.org>

On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 00:53:36 -0700, Steven C. Den Beste wrote:

>>    No, developing OS/2 software and making a living is not mutually
exclusive.
>
>Of course not. You develop OS/2 software in your spare time, and make a
>living developing WIN32 software for pay. But no company seems to be able to
>make a living by developing shrink-wrap OS/2 software for retail sale.

1. What do you think Brad does for a living????  Here's a hint: it's not
Win32.  (Then again, I don't do Windows either.)

2. "No company" seems a little harsh.  Are you sure about that?  Absolutely
zero?  None whatsoever?

The rest of your message seems to be making a mountain ("OS/2 is dead!") out
of a molehill ("Innoval's OS/2 line has died!"), and worth even less of a
response.

---
Disclaimer: unless explicitly mentioned otherwise, I do not speak,
nor have I ever spoken, for the company I work for.



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From: esther@bitranch.com                               30-Aug-99 23:37:01
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:24
Subj: Re: vmware mistake

From: esther@bitranch.com (Esther Schindler)

I've seen some of the original poster's messages. I don't find them 
generally useful or particularly accurate, but I've read them. Other 
people are generally involved enough in those threads that I don't 
feel compelled to respond.

(I shall do my best to ignore the straight line about defaming IBM, 
but it's a heck of a temptation. <grin>)

I agree with you that one person's reality is another person's 
fantasy. That's why perspective is important; what you see from one 
viewpoint might not agree with mine. We all get a better view by 
sharing what we see -- not shouting about whose vision of reality is 
the "real" one. One person sees such-and-so as a good thing, another 
thinks that it's a terrible sign. Often, everybody's right... from his
own viewpoint.

--Esther

On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 21:49:13, JM <malstrom@emily.oit.umass.edu> wrote:

| Esther Schindler <esther@bitranch.com> wrote:
| : On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 03:46:38, JM <malstrom@wilde.oit.umass.edu> wrote:
| : | Gee, when I stayed relentlessly upbeat about Win32-os/2 you got on my
case.
| 
| : Yup, I did. There's a difference between "seeing only what you want to
| : see" and maintaining an upbeat attitude. "That's not lipstick on my 
| : husband's collar," "Gerstner meant _primarily_ corporate users when he
| : said that, he wasn't intending to cut out the SOHO user," and "that 
| : salesman wouldn't lie to me" are all examples of the mistakes people 
| : make when they want to see a situation as other than it is.
| 
| So, why haven't you seen the original posters continual defemation of 
| OS/2 and IBM?
| 
| : I'm a great believer in observing reality, whether or not I like the 
| : way it looks. _Then_ I can choose to give more credit to the positive.
| 
| One person's reality is another's fantasy.
| 
| : | Since when has David's, AKA Kelly Robinson's intentions been well
meaning??
| 
| : Since when are you a mind-reader? I don't claim to know the intentions
| : of any of the participants here (other than my own). The only thing by
| : which I can judge are the participants' words... and, in some cases, 
| : their actions.
| 
| Well since you seen to haved missed something here, why don't you take some 
| time and rummage through dejanews and take a look at all of his "well 
| meaning" mistakes.  Maybe then you'll see why the people in this 
| newsgroup don't kindly correct his mistakes about OS/2.  It may be hard 
| since he changes email addresses like socks.  If you want I could send 
| you a list of addresses he might be found under
| 
| -Jason


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From: esther@bitranch.com                               30-Aug-99 23:38:11
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:24
Subj: Re: vmware mistake

From: esther@bitranch.com (Esther Schindler)

On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 21:53:26, JM <malstrom@emily.oit.umass.edu> wrote:

| : Why not simply correct the error? Why give someone the satisfaction of
| : raising your ire?
|  
| Most of us here are of the male gender and we take satisfaction in 
| sending witty little flames in the direction of our detractors.  I really 
| think it might release endorphines into our brain or something.  

Well, that's a refreshingly honest perspective on the matter. <big, 
genuine grin>

--Esther

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From: madings@baladi.nmrfam.wisc.edu                    30-Aug-99 23:39:18
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:24
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: Steve Mading <madings@baladi.nmrfam.wisc.edu>

In comp.os.linux.advocacy nn <nn@nn.nn> wrote:

: A.Lizard <"alizard[spam]"@ecis.com> wrote in message

:> In a couple of years, I expect "normal" PCs to be running Linux.

: MS is a long way from losing the typical OEM desktop market, most users
: barely know how to save a file or type in a URL on their computers. Linux
: will never be even a remote threat because a typical user cannott and does
: not care to hassle with it. Linux is a pain in the ass to install and setup,
: sorry. The millions of home users who are driving the market would reject a
: Linux OS on their newly purchased computer instantly.

Apparently you completely missed the future tense in the post you
quote.  It said IN A COUPLE OF YEARS.  Not right now.  Yes, right
now Linux's setup is too hard for my grandma.  That doesn't mean 
it has to stay that way.  (Although I do hope that there evolves
seperate distributions for 'newbie-friendly' setups and
'expert-friendly' setups.  I don't want to use a dumbed-down setup
akin to the kind Windows has, but I can see the value it would have
for new users.)

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From: dmcbride@no.tower.spam.to.org                     30-Aug-99 23:44:03
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:24
Subj: Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2

From: "Darin McBride" <dmcbride@no.tower.spam.to.org>

On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 15:07:06 -0700, Steven C. Den Beste wrote:

>On 30 Aug 1999 20:01:25 GMT, cawort01@spam.netcom.com recycled some holes
>into the following pattern:
>
>>You should read my messages more carefully, I was specificallly referring to 

>>PMMail/2 which I use regularly, I only mentioned the windoze version
passing.
>>Plus I was referring specifically to the comments Steven made.  I can spell
so 
>>what you need/want is different from what I require.  The OS/2 version
handles
>>all of what Steven referred to flawlessly.  You bring up completely
different items.
>>The OS/2 version works great.   
>
>Are you sure it permits regular expressions in kill filters (which Agent

I'd love to see re's in PMMail's filters.  The fact is, it only has a boolean
match with wildcard support (*, as the same as DOS).  It, then, has the
equivalent of ^ and $ from re's.

On second thought ... it's basically there.  Just a minor pain in the rear
end.  Create a command file that calls [grep "expr" %1 > %2].  There should
be an easier way ... :-/

>permits), or that it can filter based on the contents of an article (as
>opposed to just the header information including the subject line, which
>Agent doesn't permit but I wish it did)?

"The only recognized Field for the Message Tag is *Size*"  - Somewhat, but
not enough.  Again, you can have a commandfile that does the above.

>Here's another example:
>
>   not any-recipient: sdenbes1@san.rr.com

That's easy enough to do in PMMail.

>What this means is that if I receive mail and I'm not explicitly on the
>address list for "To:" or "CC:", then no matter what those fields do say it
>goes into the trashbin. So those "blind CC" messages where the "from" and
>"to" fields are the same, or with "recipient list suppressed", are trashed
>automatically.

Never thought about blocking this way.  Neat.  :-)

>Does PMMail offer this degree of flexibility?

Yes, but not always as easily.

>....or is it just the fact that it runs on OS/2, so it must by definition be
>superior?

Well, that, too, of course.  :-)

---
Disclaimer: unless explicitly mentioned otherwise, I do not speak,
nor have I ever spoken, for the company I work for.



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From: kwilas@stardock.com                               31-Aug-99 00:13:00
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:24
Subj: Re: MSWolf in sheep's clothing and nothing more.

From: kwilas@stardock.com (Kris Kwilas)

In article <37CB126A.CD694C8F@WarpCity.com>, Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com>
wrote:
>There will be no Stardock Warp2000 (Warp5) product despite
>the never-ending spam provided by Wardell & Co.  Look

Tim, it is _your_ posts (most especially the ones _you_
have started with incorrect information) that have been 
the source of "Warp2000 spam" in this newsgroup (and
others, thanks you your lovely habit of starting similar
threads in other groups like .misc). 

Stardock's stated policy for well over a year has been
that _someone_ should do an OS/2 client if IBM is not. 

Kris

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From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               30-Aug-99 20:20:20
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:24
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Dave Tholen wrote:
> 
> Marty writes:
> 
> >>>>>>> [some more stupid crap to Brad Wardell]
> 
> >>>>>> What's allegedly stupid about it, Marty?
> 
> >>>>>>> Who are you talking to Dave?
> 
> >>>>>> The readers, Marty.
> 
> >>>>> Are the readers named Brad?
> 
> >>>> Irrelevant, Marty.  The readers didn't make the erroneous claims.
>
> >>> Irrelevant Dave.
> 
> >> On the contrary, it's quite relevant.
> 
> > Incorrect.
> 
> On what basis do you make that claim, Marty?

"The readers" have nothing to do with your directly addressing Brad Wardell
as if he were reading your words.
 
> >>> You're addressing Brad directly.
> 
> >> On what basis do you call it "directly", Marty?
> 
> > On the basis that you wrote ", Brad", Dave.
> 
> That simply indicates the author of the claim, Marty.

No, it indicates who you are addressing with your comment, Dave.  By
responding to his claims you are addressing him Dave.  Can you admit you're
wrong on anything?  Even when it's so blatently obvious?  What a baby.

> > Do you wish to deny this fact
> 
> I'll deny that it proves your claim.

No, you'll deny anything that I say because you think you can.  If I said
the sun is hot, you'd find a way to deny it.  Stop being such a baby.

> > or change the definition of "responding directly"?
> 
> Unnecessary.

No, you instead chose to change the definition of what ", Brad" means.  Why
am I not surprised?

> > Either way you're wrong.
> 
> On what basis do you make that claim, Marty?

On the basis that you were addressing him directly.  Reading comprehension
problems?

> >>> I see you chose to ignore the rest of the post.
> 
> >> Incorrect.  I addressed it previously.  You chose to delete my
> >> response.
> 
> > Because it was irrelevant, inappropriate, and didn't answer the question.
> 
> On what basis do you say that, Marty?

Dave, I just asked you "Do you wish to deny that you are responding
directly to Brad Wardell?"  You responded, "I'll deny that it proves your
claim."  You then proceed to deny that you were responding to Brad Wardell
by saying, "That simply indicates the author of the claim, Marty."  This is
not logical, nor does it appeal to common sense.  A simple "Yes" would have
sufficed with explanation of your argument.  Are those two words in your
vocabulary (yes and no)?  You should use them once in a while.

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From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               30-Aug-99 20:21:15
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:24
Subj: Re: 1.66 hours left [no text]

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Dave Tholen wrote:
> 
> Marty writes:
> 
> >>>>>
> 
> >>>> The series of "no text" countdown messages is from one of the people
> >>>> Brad Wardell considers "reasonable".
> 
> >>> Is it more reasonable to waste space and bandwidth responding to such a
> >>> thick-skulled arrogant individual?
> 
> >> On what basis do you call it a waste of space and bandwidth to counter
> >> Brad Wardell's lies?
> 
> > You seem to be having delusions of granduer.
> 
> Balderdash.
> 
> > I was referring to you Professor.
> 
> Illogical, given that I haven't been wasting space and bandwidth.  But
> that's rather ironic, coming from someone who used bandwidth to perform
> a useless countdown.

How ironic indeed.

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From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               30-Aug-99 20:22:10
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:24
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [time's up] [context guard]

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Dave Tholen wrote:
> 
> Marty writes:
> 
> >>>>>>>>>>>> You just indicated [...] responses to me [...] will be
unimportant.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I agree.
> 
> >>>>>>>>>> Posting another unimportant response, eh Marty?
> 
> >>>>>>>>> How ironic.
> 
> >>>>>>>> On what basis do you make that claim, Marty?
> 
> >>>>>>> See what I mean?
> 
> >>>>>> I see you didn't answer my question.  It figures.
> 
> >>>>> See what I mean?
> 
> >>>> I see you still didn't answer my question.  It figures.
> 
> >>> See what I mean?
> 
> >> I see you still didn't answer my question.  It figures.
> 
> > See what I mean?
> 
> I see you still didn't answer my question.  It figures.

Still not wasting space and bandwidth Dave?

See what I mean?

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From: jkobal@NOSPAMus.ibm.com                           30-Aug-99 19:13:28
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:24
Subj: Re: dont blame Gates for IBM not licensing Win32

From: "Jeffrey S. Kobal" <jkobal@NOSPAMus.ibm.com>

Marty wrote:

> [snip] Everything mentioned here involves moving away from Open32 and
> incorporating functionality into PE2LX, possibly from Wine.  I had a better
> example earlier of when the decision to do this was made, but I deleted it
> from my mailbox.  I think this illustrates the point.

Everything mentioned there had to do with one basic construct: resource
files.  Open32 doesn't do any special handling of resource files, so all
resources (acceltables, dialog templates, menu templates, icons, bitmaps,
etc.) have to be converted over to a standard OS/2 format.  Each item
described in that message you pasted had to do with resources, which is
a very small part of what it takes to port a Windows application to OS/2.
The fact that they are "moving away from Open32" with respect to
resource file handling only means that they've come up with way to
avoid having to convert their resource files over to the OS/2 format;
the APIs that handle loading of resources are a VERY small subset of
what Open32 covers.

Jeffrey S. Kobal
IBM Corporation


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From: mawa@iname.com                                    29-Aug-99 22:44:09
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:24
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: mawa@iname.com (Matthias Warkus)

It was the Sun, 29 Aug 1999 16:31:20 -0400...
..and nn <nn@nn.nn> wrote:
> 
> A.Lizard <"alizard[spam]"@ecis.com> wrote in message
> 
> > In a couple of years, I expect "normal" PCs to be running Linux.
> 
> MS is a long way from losing the typical OEM desktop market, most users
> barely know how to save a file or type in a URL on their computers. Linux
> will never be even a remote threat because a typical user cannott and does
> not care to hassle with it. Linux is a pain in the ass to install and setup,
> sorry. The millions of home users who are driving the market would reject a
> Linux OS on their newly purchased computer instantly.

You're not only trolling, but a lot behind reality. You can get PCs
with Linux pre-installed and perfectly set up today (at Red Zac).

mawa
-- 
Among all savage beasts, none is found so harmful as woman.
	-- St. John Chrysostom, 304-407.

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From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               30-Aug-99 20:35:26
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:24
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Dave Tholen wrote:
> 
> Marty writes:
> 
> >>>>>>>>>
> 
> >>>>>>>> You have some emotional need to repost material without adding
> >>>>>>>> anything new, Marty?
> 
> >>>>>>> You have some emotional need to address Brad Wardell directly when
> >>>>>>> he's not listening to you?
> 
> >>>>>> Who said I'm addressing Brad Wardell directly, Marty?
> 
> >>>>> You did, every time you said ", Brad" try reading what you write once
> >>>>> in a while.
> 
> >>>> Incorrect.  I never called it direct.
> 
> >>> It doesn't matter what you call it Dave.
> 
> >> On the contrary, it does.
> 
> > What you call it is irrelevant to what it is.
> 
> But I didn't call it something, Marty; you did.

What you didn't call it is irrelevant to what it is.  No stop the
bullshit.  It would be at about this point in the conversation that I'd
knock you flat on your ass if you were close-by.

> You were trying to put words into my mouth.  How ironic.

I was calling it for what it was.  I'll ask again, do you wish to deny that
you were addressing Brad?

> > Doth not a rose by any other name smell as sweet?
> 
> Irrelevant, Marty.
> 
> > Or in this case, feces smell any more or less repulsive?
> 
> Your feces.

I suppose your feces smells like roses?  It's quite relevant because you're
trying to say that by not calling something "direct addressing" it makes a
difference as to what is happening.  You're quite full of feces.

> >>> It is direct if you address him directly.
> 
> >> The key word here is "if".
> 
> > No, the key word is direct.
> 
> Incorrect, given that the premise has not been established.

Which premise wouldn't that be?  You are addressing him directly.  Anyone
can see that.  It's absurd, but arguing about it is even more absurd. 
You're too much of a baby to admit when you're wrong.

> > Try to focus for a change.
> 
> Practice what you preach, Marty.

I'm not talking about focusing on asteroids, Dave.  Perhaps you could stop
diluting the subject matter long enough to answer a simple yes or no
question:  Do you wish to deny that you were directly addressing Brad?

> > You have addressed him directly in adding ", Brad" to several statements.
> 
> That simply indicates the author of the statements to which I'm responding,
> Marty.

So, Dave, does it seem to you, Dave, that I am addressing the reading
"audience" with this statement, Dave?  That's absurd.

> > Are you going to deny doing this
> 
> I'm going to deny your interpretation of "direct", Marty.

Why, because it's over usenet?  Give me another lame excuse, I'm in the
mood for a laugh, Dave.  (but I wasn't addressing you when I said that)

> > or are you going to attempt to change the definition of "directly
> > addressing"?
> 
> No change is necessary on my part.  You're the one trying to do that,
> by putting words into my mouth.  How ironic.
> 
> > Either way you are incorrect.
> 
> Wrong again, Marty.

Incorrect.

> >>>> By the way, Gerben recently replied directly to me, despite allegedly
> >>>> having me in his kill file.
> 
> >>> Therefore Brad will also?
> 
> >> Who said anything about "will", Marty?  The appropriate word is "can".
> 
> > Why would you respond directly to someone if you're not particularly
> > expecting them to respond back?
> 
> Who said I'm addressing Brad Wardell directly, Marty?

I do.  You do.  Are you addressing me with this question?  Perhaps I should
leave it open to other "audience" members if not.  Dave you're being
completely absurd.  Admit it and I'll shut up.

> > That's illogical Dave.
> 
> On the contrary, it's quite logical, Marty.

What is?  Oh, perhaps this:
> Why would you respond directly to someone if you're not particularly
> expecting them to respond back?

How is that a logical thing to do?

> The alleged use of a killfile should not be taken as the opportunity to 
> post with impunity whatever you want about the person killfiled.

Does this make it any more logical to directly respond to someone who is
not listening to you?  I guess I could be asking the same thing of myself
right now.

> > [In spite of my highest hopes, I fully expect you to respond,
> 
> Pointing out your illogic once again.

On what basis do you make this claim?

> > hence I address you directly.]
> 
> What you want to call it is irrelevant, Marty.

Yes.  What it <is> is relevant.  Stop being so thick-headed.

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From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               30-Aug-99 20:40:18
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:24
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Gerben Bergman wrote:
> 
> From the desk of Friar Marty:
> 
> | > By the way, Gerben recently replied directly to me, despite allegedly
> | > having me in his kill file.
> |
> | Therefore Brad will also?  Illogical.
> 
> In Dave's one-track universe everything works one way, namely the way he
> thinks it works.

Nope.  Things work 2 ways:  his way, and the wrong way.

But he's too much of a thick-skulled 3 year old to realize his own
arrogance.  He's too busy playing "Gotcha last" to argue any real OS/2
issues, not that he could in any effective manor.  But on what basis have I
made this claim?

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From: forgitabout@mail.com                              30-Aug-99 19:36:02
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:24
Subj: Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2

From: forgitabout@mail.com (David H. McCoy)

In article <38053570.398686154@news-server>, sdenbes1@san.rr.com says...
> 
> Brad, I think you're trying just a bit too hard to rationalize this. This
> isn't about email programs, this is about OS/2.
> 
> It has nothing to do with email programs topping out, it has to do with the
> bottom falling out of the OS/2 app market.
> 
> The reason Innoval has saturated their market is because the market is tiny.
> It doesn't take long to fill a thimble.
> 
> --------
> Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
> Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste
> 
> "We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
>               -- Calvin
> 
> 

No suprise there. People would rather die than admit what the people who 
actually tried to make money selling OS/2 software have realized.

It just doesn't pay.
-- 
---------------------------------------
David H. McCoy
dmccoy@EXTRACT_THIS_mnsinc.com
---------------------------------------

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From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               30-Aug-99 20:43:28
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:24
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Dave Tholen wrote:
> 
> Marty writes:
> 
> >>>>>>>>>>>> You're the one arguing with [...] a jerk, Brad.
> 
> >>>>>>>>>> So much for your alleged restoration of context, Marty. 
Hypocrite.
> 
> >>>>>>>>> Are these not your words Dave?
> 
> >>>>>>>> They're the dictionary's words, Marty.
> 
> >>>>>>> Are those not the words you wrote, Dave?
> 
> >>>>>> I see you chose to ignore the rest of my response, otherwise you
> >>>>>> would have no logical basis for your question.
> 
> >>>>> Are those not the words you wrote, Dave?
> 
> >>>> I see you still chose to ignore the rest of my response, otherwise you
> >>>> would have no logical basis for your question.
> 
> >>> Are these not the words that you wrote?
> 
> >> I see you still chose to ignore the rest of my response, otherwise you
> >> would have no logical basis for your question.
> 
> >>> I see you've still failed to answer the question.
> 
> >> Incorrect.  You failed to see my answer.  Try reading before deleting,
> >> Marty.
> 
> > Are these not the words that you wrote?
> 
> I see you still chose to ignore the rest of my response, otherwise you
> would have no logical basis for your question.

I see you've still failed to answer the question.

> > It's not a difficult question Dave.
> 
> It's not difficult to see my previous answer, Marty.

Yes, it is, because it didn't answer any question I asked.
 
> > You've failed to answer it appropriately.
> 
> You've failed to comprehend my previous answer.

I see you've still failed to answer the question.

> > An appropriate answer is "yes" or "no."
> 
> My previous answer was already appropriate.

What can be a more appropriate answer to a yes or no question than "yes" or
"no"?
 
> > I have not seen either of these words in your response.
> 
> Doesn't change the fact that my previous response was already appropriate,
> Marty.

On what basis do you make this claim?

I see you've still failed to answer the question.  Are these:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> You're the one arguing with [...] a jerk, Brad.

your words or not?  Hint: The answer only requires one word.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               30-Aug-99 21:08:10
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:25
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Dave Tholen wrote:
> 
> Marty writes:
> 
> >> Brad Wardell writes:
> 
> >>> Not much left to discuss. <grin>
> 
> >> [...] such as your lie about [...]
> 
> > Whose lie Dave?
> 
> Having more reading comprehension problems, Marty?

It's hard to understand your complex statements, Dave (all 5 of them).
 
> > You wouldn't happen to be trying to talk directly to Brad
> > again would you?
> 
> Since when are the readers just Brad, Marty?

Did all the readers lie about ...?  You used the word "your" Dave.  Admit
your mistake and move on.  How do you not address someone when you say
"your lie"?  Stop being absurd.  It's quite pointless.

> > That's a very useless and silly thing to do because he
> > has kill-filed you.
> 
> Illogical, given that my evidence is quite useful and not silly at all.
> The silliness was all Brad's.

Your evidence is irrelevant to this discussion.  Your addressing Brad is
useless and silly.  Why not refer to him as an external context, which is
what he now is?  Why not say "such as Brad's lie about..."?  You're talking
directly to his killfile, as you will be talking to mine soon, no doubt.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               30-Aug-99 21:10:01
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:25
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Dave Tholen wrote:
> 
> Marty writes:
> 
> > Why am I not surprised?
> 
> More of your illogic.

How is it illogical that I predicted came true?  Are you saying your
response was illogical?  If so, I agree whole-heartedly.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               30-Aug-99 21:18:03
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:25
Subj: Re: MSWolf in sheep's clothing and nothing more.

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Tim Martin wrote:
> 
> cawort01@spam.netcom.com wrote:
> 
> > Hey Steven,
> >
> > you just asked the question of the month.
> >
> > Care to answer tim?
> >
> > I thought not.
> 
> As usual, you think like an idiot.  Are YOU using Stardock's
> Warp 5 product today?  The very same product Stardock
> took to these newsgroups back in November 1998 and claimed
> they would be exclusively providing to the OS/2 community?

As I recall, you were the only one making any claims about it Tim.
 
> I thought not.  Please, someone enlighten us all.  Give us
> a release date for Stardock's vaporware Warp2000  (Warp 5)
> product.   If not,  please explain why we were all subjected
> to more than 9 months of Stardock "We're the Number One
> OS/2 Software Developer so buy our faded OS/2 products
> because we're not making any more for you" vaporware hype.

This doesn't change the fact that Stardock is still releasing OS/2 native
software, Tim.

> There will be no Stardock Warp2000 (Warp5) product despite
> the never-ending spam provided by Wardell & Co.

"Though subscribers of Warp City know..."

Hmm... sounds like spam to me, Tim.  Time to get the dustpan again.  There
goes another wall of your glass house.

- Marty

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         31-Aug-99 01:13:04
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:25
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Marty writes:

> Gerben Bergman wrote:
 
>> Marty wrote:

>>>> By the way, Gerben recently replied directly to me, despite allegedly
>>>> having me in his kill file.

>>> Therefore Brad will also?  Illogical.

>> In Dave's one-track universe everything works one way, namely the way he
>> thinks it works.

> Nope.  Things work 2 ways:  his way, and the wrong way.

I didn't say that, Marty.  Having more reading comprehension problems?

> But he's too much of a thick-skulled 3 year old to realize his own
> arrogance.

How ironic.

> He's too busy playing "Gotcha last"

How ironic.

> to argue any real OS/2 issues,

I'm simply responding to the issues raised by others, Marty, such as
the ones you're raising.

> not that he could in any effective manor.

You mean manner, Marty?

> But on what basis have I made this claim?

Good question.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         31-Aug-99 01:10:17
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:25
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [time's up] [context guard]

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Marty writes:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You just indicated [...] responses to me [...] will be
unimportant.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree.

>>>>>>>>>>>> Posting another unimportant response, eh Marty?

>>>>>>>>>>> How ironic.

>>>>>>>>>> On what basis do you make that claim, Marty?

>>>>>>>>> See what I mean?

>>>>>>>> I see you didn't answer my question.  It figures.

>>>>>>> See what I mean?

>>>>>> I see you still didn't answer my question.  It figures.

>>>>> See what I mean?

>>>> I see you still didn't answer my question.  It figures.

>>> See what I mean?

>> I see you still didn't answer my question.  It figures.

> Still not wasting space and bandwidth Dave?

Correct.

> See what I mean?

I see you still didn't answer my question.  It figures.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         31-Aug-99 01:17:00
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:25
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Marty writes:

>>>> Brad Wardell writes:
 
>>>>> Not much left to discuss. <grin>
 
>>>> [...] such as your lie about [...]
 
>>> Whose lie Dave?

>> Having more reading comprehension problems, Marty?

> It's hard to understand your complex statements, Dave (all 5 of them).

No, it isn't, Marty.

>>> You wouldn't happen to be trying to talk directly to Brad
>>> again would you?
 
>> Since when are the readers just Brad, Marty?

> Did all the readers lie about ...?

Non sequitur.

> You used the word "your" Dave.

Appropriately, Marty.

> Admit your mistake and move on.

What alleged mistake, Marty?

> How do you not address someone when you say "your lie"?

There is a difference between addressing someone and addressing
someone directly, Marty.

> Stop being absurd.  It's quite pointless.

Practice what you preach, Marty.

>>> That's a very useless and silly thing to do because he
>>> has kill-filed you.
 
>> Illogical, given that my evidence is quite useful and not silly at all.
>> The silliness was all Brad's.

> Your evidence is irrelevant to this discussion.

Incorrect.

> Your addressing Brad is useless and silly.

Also incorrect.

> Why not refer to him as an external context, which is what he now is?

Are you arguing that it would be more effective, Marty?

> Why not say "such as Brad's lie about..."?

I have, Marty.

> You're talking directly to his killfile,

Incorrect.

> as you will be talking to mine soon, no doubt.

The sooner, the better.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         31-Aug-99 01:13:27
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:25
Subj: Re: 1.66 hours left [no text]

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Marty writes:

>>>>>>>
 
>>>>>> The series of "no text" countdown messages is from one of the people
>>>>>> Brad Wardell considers "reasonable".

>>>>> Is it more reasonable to waste space and bandwidth responding to such a
>>>>> thick-skulled arrogant individual?

>>>> On what basis do you call it a waste of space and bandwidth to counter
>>>> Brad Wardell's lies?

>>> You seem to be having delusions of granduer.

>> Balderdash.

>>> I was referring to you Professor.
 
>> Illogical, given that I haven't been wasting space and bandwidth.  But
>> that's rather ironic, coming from someone who used bandwidth to perform
>> a useless countdown.

> How ironic indeed.

Realization is the first step to recovery.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         31-Aug-99 01:18:24
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:25
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Marty writes:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You're the one arguing with [...] a jerk, Brad.

>>>>>>>>>>>> So much for your alleged restoration of context, Marty. 
Hypocrite.

>>>>>>>>>>> Are these not your words Dave?

>>>>>>>>>> They're the dictionary's words, Marty.

>>>>>>>>> Are those not the words you wrote, Dave?

>>>>>>>> I see you chose to ignore the rest of my response, otherwise you
>>>>>>>> would have no logical basis for your question.

>>>>>>> Are those not the words you wrote, Dave?

>>>>>> I see you still chose to ignore the rest of my response, otherwise you
>>>>>> would have no logical basis for your question.

>>>>> Are these not the words that you wrote?

>>>> I see you still chose to ignore the rest of my response, otherwise you
>>>> would have no logical basis for your question.

>>>>> I see you've still failed to answer the question.

>>>> Incorrect.  You failed to see my answer.  Try reading before deleting,
>>>> Marty.

>>> Are these not the words that you wrote?

>> I see you still chose to ignore the rest of my response, otherwise you
>> would have no logical basis for your question.

> I see you've still failed to answer the question.

I see you still chose to ignore the rest of my response, otherwise you
would have no logical basis for your question.

>>> It's not a difficult question Dave.

>> It's not difficult to see my previous answer, Marty.

> Yes, it is, because it didn't answer any question I asked.

On the contrary, it did.

>>> You've failed to answer it appropriately.

>> You've failed to comprehend my previous answer.

> I see you've still failed to answer the question.

I see you still chose to ignore the rest of my response, otherwise you
would have no logical basis for your question.

>>> An appropriate answer is "yes" or "no."

>> My previous answer was already appropriate.

> What can be a more appropriate answer to a yes or no question than "yes" or
> "no"?

The one I gave.

>>> I have not seen either of these words in your response.

>> Doesn't change the fact that my previous response was already appropriate,
>> Marty.

> On what basis do you make this claim?

On the basis of its appropriateness, Marty.

> I see you've still failed to answer the question.  Are these:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> You're the one arguing with [...] a jerk, Brad.
>
> your words or not?  Hint: The answer only requires one word.

I see you still chose to ignore the rest of my response, otherwise you
would have no logical basis for your question.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: bwardell@mw.mediaone.net                          31-Aug-99 01:24:24
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:25
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: "Brad Wardell" <bwardell@mw.mediaone.net>

Gerben Bergman <rerbert@wxs.nl> wrote in message
news:37caab63.2966355@news.wxs.nl...
> From the desk of Friar Marty:
>
> | > By the way, Gerben recently replied directly to me, despite allegedly
> | > having me in his kill file.
> |
> | Therefore Brad will also?  Illogical.
>
> In Dave's one-track universe everything works one way, namely the way he
> thinks it works. If I choose to check out one of his responses because I
> *knew* what part of my message he was going to respond to and I wanted to
> see what he had to say about it, that means I'm probably lying about my
use
> of a killfile as is everyone else who claims to have him killfiled. The
> rigidity in his thinking process never ceases to amaze me.
>

It's almost robotic isn't it?  No wonder Tholen keeps winning kook of the
month.

Brad



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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               30-Aug-99 21:33:06
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:25
Subj: Re: dont blame Gates for IBM not licensing Win32

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

"Jeffrey S. Kobal" wrote:
> 
> Marty wrote:
> 
> > [snip] Everything mentioned here involves moving away from Open32 and
> > incorporating functionality into PE2LX, possibly from Wine.  I had a
better
> > example earlier of when the decision to do this was made, but I deleted it
> > from my mailbox.  I think this illustrates the point.
> 
> Everything mentioned there had to do with one basic construct: resource
> files.  Open32 doesn't do any special handling of resource files, so all
> resources (acceltables, dialog templates, menu templates, icons, bitmaps,
> etc.) have to be converted over to a standard OS/2 format.  Each item
> described in that message you pasted had to do with resources, which is
> a very small part of what it takes to port a Windows application to OS/2.
> The fact that they are "moving away from Open32" with respect to
> resource file handling only means that they've come up with way to
> avoid having to convert their resource files over to the OS/2 format;
> the APIs that handle loading of resources are a VERY small subset of
> what Open32 covers.

Believe what you will about the project, but you are incorrect.  <I am on
the Windows API implementation team.>  I have received every e-mail that
has flown back and forth on the topic since before the project got renamed
to "Odin".  The message I posted was the most recent example I could
conjure that I haven't deleted.  There were other more appropriate messages
that I have deleted.

- Marty

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         31-Aug-99 01:24:03
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:25
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Marty writes:

>>>>>>>>> [some more stupid crap to Brad Wardell]

>>>>>>>> What's allegedly stupid about it, Marty?

>>>>>>>>> Who are you talking to Dave?

>>>>>>>> The readers, Marty.

>>>>>>> Are the readers named Brad?

>>>>>> Irrelevant, Marty.  The readers didn't make the erroneous claims.

>>>>> Irrelevant Dave.

>>>> On the contrary, it's quite relevant.

>>> Incorrect.

>> On what basis do you make that claim, Marty?

> "The readers" have nothing to do with your directly addressing Brad Wardell
> as if he were reading your words.

You're still erroneously presupposing that I'm addressing Brad Wardell
directly, Marty.

>>>>> You're addressing Brad directly.

>>>> On what basis do you call it "directly", Marty?

>>> On the basis that you wrote ", Brad", Dave.

>> That simply indicates the author of the claim, Marty.

> No, it indicates who you are addressing with your comment, Dave.

But not directly, Marty, contrary to your claim.

> By responding to his claims you are addressing him Dave.

But not directly, Marty, contrary to your claim.

> Can you admit you're wrong on anything?

Irrelevant, given that I'm not wrong in this instance.

> Even when it's so blatently obvious?

On what basis do you make that claim, Marty?

> What a baby.

How ironic.

>>> Do you wish to deny this fact

>> I'll deny that it proves your claim.

> No, you'll deny anything that I say because you think you can.

Yet another unsubstantiated and erroneous claim.

> If I said the sun is hot, you'd find a way to deny it.

Yet another unsubstantiated and erroneous claim.

> Stop being such a baby.

How ironic.

>>> or change the definition of "responding directly"?

>> Unnecessary.

> No, you instead chose to change the definition of what ", Brad" means.

Incorrect.

> Why am I not surprised?

More of your illogic and arrogance.

>>> Either way you're wrong.

>> On what basis do you make that claim, Marty?

> On the basis that you were addressing him directly.

On what basis do you claim it was direct, Marty?

> Reading comprehension problems?

Not at all, Marty.

>>>>> I see you chose to ignore the rest of the post.

>>>> Incorrect.  I addressed it previously.  You chose to delete my
>>>> response.

>>> Because it was irrelevant, inappropriate, and didn't answer the question.

>> On what basis do you say that, Marty?

> Dave, I just asked you "Do you wish to deny that you are responding
> directly to Brad Wardell?"  You responded, "I'll deny that it proves your
> claim."

Which was the appropriate response.

> You then proceed to deny that you were responding to Brad Wardell

On the contrary, I denied that I am responding directly to Brad Wardell,
Marty.  You left out a key word.

> by saying, "That simply indicates the author of the claim, Marty."  This is
> not logical, nor does it appeal to common sense.

It is not logical to ignore a key word, Marty.

> A simple "Yes" would have sufficed with explanation of your argument.

Incorrect.

> Are those two words in your vocabulary (yes and no)?  You should use them
> once in a while.

Have you stopped beating your wife, Marty?  Think about that.  A "yes" or
"no" should suffice, using your brand of reasoning.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               30-Aug-99 21:39:11
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:25
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Dave Tholen wrote:
> 
> Marty writes:
> 
> >>>>>>>>>> Karel Jansens writes [to Brad Wardell]:
> 
> >>>>>>>>>>> Just one more thing: you _do_ realise that to all the
participants and
> >>>>>>>>>>> lurkers in this group you are representing Stardock Systems,
don't
> >>>>>>>>>>> you? I mean, I can make a complete arse of myself and Dave
Tholen can
> >>>>>>>>>>> be as obnoxious as he wants to be, neither of us are going to
lose
> >>>>>>>>>>> even a cent in that. But if you should start painting yourself
as a
> >>>>>>>>>>> prejudiced bigot, don't you think that would reflect in your
business?
> 
> >>>>>>>>>> I've already been told privately that Stardock products would be
> >>>>>>>>>> avoided because of Brad's behavior here.  One person even told me
> >>>>>>>>>> that he emailed that statement directly to Brad.  Brad just
treated
> >>>>>>>>>> him the same way he treats me.
> 
> >>>>>>>>> His loss, not Brad's.
> 
> >>>>>>>> Incorrect.
> 
> >>>>>>> How do you know Dave?
> 
> >>>>>> Because I was told.
> 
> >>>>> And I was told not by someone in a high position at Stardock.
> 
> >>>> Someone who is a known liar, is known to have a short memory, and has
> >>>> a motive to deny the evidence.
> 
> >>> Like you perhaps?
> 
> >> Brad Wardell is not like me.
> 
> > No argument there.
> 
> Good.
> 
> > I'm glad you see my point.
> 
> Why are you so glad that I recognize that Brad Wardell is not like me?

Because you obviously described yourself with that statement:
1]  someone who is a liar
  -- DT]  M] and furthermore wasn't even an analogy
2]  is known to have a short memory
> Eric Bennett writes:
>
> > [Dave tholen wrote:]
> >
> > > When do you expect to complete your examination?
>
> > I do not expect to complete it.
>
> Why?
>
> > I have more important things to do, like posting in the emulator threads.

3]  has a motive to deny the evidence
  -- your own ridiculously over-inflated ego
 
> >>> I've seen no evidence of this from Brad.
> 
> >> Try reading his posting in which he claims that there are 1600 postings
> >> in other newsgroups with people calling me a kook.  Then read my
> >> rebuttal.
> 
> > I have.
> 
> Then you have seen evidence that Brad is a liar.

No, but I have witnessed more of your own absurdity.

> Why did you claim otherwise?

See above.

> >>>>> Hmm... who should I believe?
> 
> >>>> Is it logical to believe someone who is known to lie, Marty?
> 
> >>>>>>> I didn't know you were Brad's accountant.
> 
> >>>>>> Illogic, given that I don't need to be Brad's accountant to know that
> >>>>>> Stardock has lost business as a result of Brad's behavior here.
> 
> >>>>> Bottom line -- Is it hurting Stardock?
> 
> >>>> At some level.
> 
> >>> Hurting them implies they are noticing it.
> 
> >> No it doesn't.
> 
> > Hurting them implies financial loss which they would notice.
> 
> Not necessarily, but in this case, the financial loss was explained
> directly, so he should have noticed.

What you believe he "should have" done is irrelevant.  What he has taken
notice of is relevant.  He has not taken notice of any financial losses. 
As you are not affiliated with Stardock, you have no further commentary on
this matter.
 
> >>> If they noticed it, they would have dealt with it because it would be
> >>> harming their business.
> 
> >> Incorrect, because it is harming their business and they still haven't
> >> dealt with it.
> 
> > Prove it, if you think you can.
> 
> Simple:  Brad hasn't changed his behavior.

That doesn't prove he's taking any financial losses.  Be logical for a
change.  "Because I said so" doesn't work.

> >>> It is not.
> 
> >> Illogical.  People have also claimed that IBM was harming OS/2, but IBM
> >> never dealt with those.
> 
> > This is completely unrelated.
> 
> Incorrect, given that it demonstrates another case of your illogic above.

The only thing it demonstrates is your ability to dilute a discussion.

> >>>>> Brad's answer is a resounding No.
> 
> >>>> Brad is a known liar.
> 
> >>> How ironic.
> 
> >> What's allegedly ironic about it, Marty?
> 
> > The fact that you are a known liar.
> 
> On what basis do you make that claim, Marty?

DT]  M] and furthermore wasn't even an analogy.

> >>>>>>>>>>> I won't even answer to the rest of that paragraph. Anybody who
thinks
> >>>>>>>>>>> that mob justice is an example of "societal norms" is way beyond 
me
> >>>>>>>>>>> anyway.
> 
> >>>>>>>>>> Bravo!  But it's a wonderful example of Brad's brand of
reasoning.
> 
> >>>>>>>>> Yeah.  Realism.
> 
> >>>>>>>> More like illogic.
> 
> >>>>>>> More like realism.
> 
> >>>>>> More like illogic.
> 
> >>>>> More like realism.
> 
> >>>> More like illogic.
> 
> >>> More like a college professor acting like a 3 year old.
> 
> >> Are you a college professor, Marty?
> 
> > No,
> 
> Then your remark is irrelevant.

Incorrect, as there is a college professor participating in this
conversation.

> > and that's precisely my point.
> 
> Your point is that you're being irrelevant?

No.  In case you can't figure it out, I'm pointing out that you're acting
like a three-year-old.

> > I'm glad you agree.
> 
> Where is this alleged agreement, Marty?

Your behavior agrees with my statement.

> >>> Why am I not surprised?
> 
> >> Perhaps it's your illogic at work again.
> 
> > Or your impression of a 3 year old at work again.
> 
> Actually, I was using your impression of a 3 year old.

You're right, I did quote you, didn't I?

> >>> More like realism.
> 
> >> More like illogic.
> 
> > More like realism.
> 
> More like illogic.

Dave... take a few steps back.  What is the point of this?  Do you have the
need to have the last word?  Honestly.  At least a three year old gets
bored and tired after shouting "MINE!" 20 times in a row.  You seem to lack
this inhibition.  Seek help.  I think this shows beyond any doubt what an
unreasonable person you actually are.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         31-Aug-99 01:34:17
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:25
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Marty writes:

>>> Why am I not surprised?
 
>> More of your illogic.

> How is it illogical that I predicted came true?

Non sequitur.

> Are you saying your response was illogical?

Not at all, Marty.

> If so, I agree whole-heartedly.

The key word here is "if", once again.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         31-Aug-99 01:35:16
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:25
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Brad Wardell writes:

> No wonder Tholen keeps winning kook of the month.

I haven't won it at all, Brad.  But keep up with your claim of 1600
postings, and you'll provide someone with all the evidence they need
to nominate you.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         31-Aug-99 01:33:19
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 03:52:25
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [context guard]

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Marty writes:

>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>> You have some emotional need to repost material without adding
>>>>>>>>>> anything new, Marty?

>>>>>>>>> You have some emotional need to address Brad Wardell directly when
>>>>>>>>> he's not listening to you?

>>>>>>>> Who said I'm addressing Brad Wardell directly, Marty?

>>>>>>> You did, every time you said ", Brad" try reading what you write once
>>>>>>> in a while.

>>>>>> Incorrect.  I never called it direct.

>>>>> It doesn't matter what you call it Dave.

>>>> On the contrary, it does.

>>> What you call it is irrelevant to what it is.

>> But I didn't call it something, Marty; you did.

> What you didn't call it is irrelevant to what it is.

It's relevant to you erroneously referring to me calling it something.

> No stop the bullshit.

Your just keeps rolling.

> It would be at about this point in the conversation that I'd
> knock you flat on your ass if you were close-by.

I see you can't resolve your disputes logically.  You have to rely on
illegal fisticuffs.  Why am I not surprised?

>> You were trying to put words into my mouth.  How ironic.

> I was calling it for what it was.

You called it incorrectly.

> I'll ask again, do you wish to deny that you were addressing Brad?

I'll deny that I was addressing Brad directly, Marty.  Why can't you
be consistent?

>>> Doth not a rose by any other name smell as sweet?

>> Irrelevant, Marty.

>>> Or in this case, feces smell any more or less repulsive?

>> Your feces.

> I suppose your feces smells like roses?

Irrelevant, Marty.

> It's quite relevant because you're trying to say that by not calling
> something "direct addressing" it makes a difference as to what is
> happening.

It does, Marty.

> You're quite full of feces.

How ironic.

>>>>> It is direct if you address him directly.

>>>> The key word here is "if".

>>> No, the key word is direct.

>> Incorrect, given that the premise has not been established.

> Which premise wouldn't that be?

The identified by the "if", Marty.  Having more reading comprehension
problems?

> You are addressing him directly.

Incorrect.

> Anyone can see that.

On what basis do you claim to know what anyone can see, Marty?

> It's absurd, but arguing about it is even more absurd. 

Then why are you doing it, Marty?

> You're too much of a baby to admit when you're wrong.

How ironic.

>>> Try to focus for a change.

>> Practice what you preach, Marty.

> I'm not talking about focusing on asteroids, Dave.

Irrelevant, givne that I never said you were.

> Perhaps you could stop diluting the subject matter long enough to
> answer a simple yes or no question:  Do you wish to deny that you
> were directly addressing Brad?

See above, Marty.  At least this time you included the "directly", which
makes a difference.

>>> You have addressed him directly in adding ", Brad" to several statements.

>> That simply indicates the author of the statements to which I'm responding,
>> Marty.

> So, Dave, does it seem to you, Dave, that I am addressing the reading
> "audience" with this statement, Dave?

Absolutely.  If you wanted to address only me, you'd logically use email
rather than a public forum.

> That's absurd.

Not at all, Marty.

>>> Are you going to deny doing this

>> I'm going to deny your interpretation of "direct", Marty.

> Why, because it's over usenet?

This is a public forum, Marty.

> Give me another lame excuse,

You're erroneously presupposing that I've given you a lame excuse previously.

> I'm in the mood for a laugh, Dave.

Then go to alt.humor, Marty.

> (but I wasn't addressing you when I said that)

Directly?

>>> or are you going to attempt to change the definition of "directly
>>> addressing"?

>> No change is necessary on my part.  You're the one trying to do that,
>> by putting words into my mouth.  How ironic.

>>> Either way you are incorrect.

>> Wrong again, Marty.

> Incorrect.

On what basis do you make that claim, Marty?

>>>>>> By the way, Gerben recently replied directly to me, despite allegedly
>>>>>> having me in his kill file.

>>>>> Therefore Brad will also?

>>>> Who said anything about "will", Marty?  The appropriate word is "can".

>>> Why would you respond directly to someone if you're not particularly
>>> expecting them to respond back?

>> Who said I'm addressing Brad Wardell directly, Marty?

> I do.

So, you're the final arbiter as to what I'm doing???

> You do.

Where have I allegedly done so, Marty?

> Are you addressing me with this question?

Not directly, Marty.

> Perhaps I should leave it open to other "audience" members if not.  Dave
> you're being completely absurd.

How ironic.

> Admit it and I'll shut up.

It's illogical to admit to being absurd when I'm not being absurd, Marty.

>>> That's illogical Dave.

>> On the contrary, it's quite logical, Marty.

> What is?  Oh, perhaps this:
> > Why would you respond directly to someone if you're not particularly
> > expecting them to respond back?
>
> How is that a logical thing to do?

How is it illogical, Marty?

>> The alleged use of a killfile should not be taken as the opportunity to 
>> post with impunity whatever you want about the person killfiled.

> Does this make it any more logical to directly respond to someone who is
> not listening to you?

There you go with the "direct" again.

> I guess I could be asking the same thing of myself right now.

Then why don't you, Marty?

>>> [In spite of my highest hopes, I fully expect you to respond,

>> Pointing out your illogic once again.

> On what basis do you make this claim?

On the basis of the illogic of yours that I pointed out, Marty.

>>> hence I address you directly.]

>> What you want to call it is irrelevant, Marty.

> Yes.  What it <is> is relevant.

What you arrogantly claim it is happens to be irrelevant, Marty.

> Stop being so thick-headed.

How ironic.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               30-Aug-99 21:48:16
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 05:26:03
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Dave Tholen wrote:
> 
> Marty writes:
> 
> >>>> Brad Wardell writes:
> 
> >>>>> Not much left to discuss. <grin>
> 
> >>>> [...] such as your lie about [...]
> 
> >>> Whose lie Dave?
> 
> >> Having more reading comprehension problems, Marty?
> 
> > It's hard to understand your complex statements, Dave (all 5 of them).
> 
> No, it isn't, Marty.

I'm trying desperately to give you some credit here, Dave.  Would you like
me to admit that your 5 catch-phrases are so simplistic as to be useless?
 
> >>> You wouldn't happen to be trying to talk directly to Brad
> >>> again would you?
> 
> >> Since when are the readers just Brad, Marty?
> 
> > Did all the readers lie about ...?
> 
> Non sequitur.

Incorrect.

> > You used the word "your" Dave.
> 
> Appropriately, Marty.

If you were addressing him, it was appropriate.  If not, it was absurd.

> > Admit your mistake and move on.
> 
> What alleged mistake, Marty?

See above.

> > How do you not address someone when you say "your lie"?
> 
> There is a difference between addressing someone and addressing
> someone directly, Marty.

Right.  You've attempted both.

> > Stop being absurd.  It's quite pointless.
> 
> Practice what you preach, Marty.
> 
> >>> That's a very useless and silly thing to do because he
> >>> has kill-filed you.
> 
> >> Illogical, given that my evidence is quite useful and not silly at all.
> >> The silliness was all Brad's.
> 
> > Your evidence is irrelevant to this discussion.
> 
> Incorrect.

Incorrect.

> > Your addressing Brad is useless and silly.
> 
> Also incorrect.

Is it useful to address someone who has already openly stated they are not
listening?

> > Why not refer to him as an external context, which is what he now is?
> 
> Are you arguing that it would be more effective, Marty?

I'm arguing that it would be less absurd.

> > Why not say "such as Brad's lie about..."?
> 
> I have, Marty.

Not in the case sited above.

> > You're talking directly to his killfile,
> 
> Incorrect.

Indirectly to his killfile perhaps?

> > as you will be talking to mine soon, no doubt.
> 
> The sooner, the better.

Thanks for the invitation.  Time to cut the traffic in this newsgroup in
half.  (The other half will be your responses, directly addressing me even
though I have just stated that I will no longer read them.)

I would appreciate it, as a courtesy, that any readers that wish to quote
Dave not quote anything to do with me.  I wish to apologize to the reading
public that have had to suffer through this thread and any others involving
myself and Dave.  It ends here.

Before I drop you fittingly into the first of my message filters, Dave, I
would like you to list in 1 response to me here, every single point to
which you would like me to concede.  I will fully admit that I am wrong to
each and every point made.  Just list them concisely in a response to this
post (try to avoid duplication if possible).  Thanks in advance.

- Marty

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: donnelly@tampabay.rr.com                          31-Aug-99 01:46:29
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 05:26:03
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: donnelly@tampabay.rr.com (Buddy Donnelly)

On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 23:11:59, esther@bitranch.com (Esther Schindler) a 
Ścrit dans un message:

> Buddy, you might like it if Innoval posted the source. 

Might? 

Let me make my position very clear. I would LOVE it if EVERY departing 
absconding software vendor posted the source on their abandoned products. 

The market for software is a two-way transaction, and is not just the 
initial act of the Sellers shipping shrinkwrapped boxes and collecting the 
money. 

Their trusting, paying Users have an investment in that software that 
should be honored, and I go so far as to believe the gummint should pass 
laws REQUIRING all software to have the source code posted with third 
parties and available for public review.


> But your quibble doesn't take into account that the company may have
> very good reasons to *not* do so?

Sure, possibly, in a specific case like this, though none has been offered 
by Innvoal and nobody close to the situation has suggested that a special 
condition exists.

But in the general case, we should turn the equation around and make it a 
De Rigueur Condition of doing business with us Trusting, Paying, Users that
we are not going to have our investments in Using their software dishonored
and/or destroyed.


> 
> Don't look gift horses in the mouth. 

And, why not?, I say. 

If you're going to have to ride that "gift" horse on a long journey, you're
a fool *not* looking it in the mouth, and in the leg, and in the strength 
of its withers and in the clarity of its eyes.

['Don't buy a pig in a poke' is another old phrase that comes to mind when 
we're asked by software vendors to "buy this box, and trust us that what's 
in it is good enough to be worth your money."]


> They could have said, "Screw you, we're cancelling all product support." 

As they had already done for PostRoad News, Net Extra, and Web Extra? I've 
got licenses here for all of those previously "declared useless" programs 
of theirs. 


> Instead, they gave the OS/2 community a gift.

And in some scenarios that have yet to be played out, including the Y2K 
mysteries of the future, those "gifts" might come back to bite a lot of 
people one more time. Going one step further into Open Source would at 
least give those who choose to begin depending heavily on their mail client
a fighting chance.



Good luck,

Buddy

Buddy Donnelly
donnelly@tampabay.rr.com


--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu                         31-Aug-99 01:44:28
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 05:26:03
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)

Marty writes:

>>>>>>>>>>>> Karel Jansens writes [to Brad Wardell]:

>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just one more thing: you _do_ realise that to all the
participants and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> lurkers in this group you are representing Stardock Systems,
don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you? I mean, I can make a complete arse of myself and Dave
Tholen can
>>>>>>>>>>>>> be as obnoxious as he wants to be, neither of us are going to
lose
>>>>>>>>>>>>> even a cent in that. But if you should start painting yourself
as a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> prejudiced bigot, don't you think that would reflect in your
business?

>>>>>>>>>>>> I've already been told privately that Stardock products would be
>>>>>>>>>>>> avoided because of Brad's behavior here.  One person even told me
>>>>>>>>>>>> that he emailed that statement directly to Brad.  Brad just
treated
>>>>>>>>>>>> him the same way he treats me.

>>>>>>>>>>> His loss, not Brad's.

>>>>>>>>>> Incorrect.

>>>>>>>>> How do you know Dave?

>>>>>>>> Because I was told.

>>>>>>> And I was told not by someone in a high position at Stardock.

>>>>>> Someone who is a known liar, is known to have a short memory, and has
>>>>>> a motive to deny the evidence.

>>>>> Like you perhaps?

>>>> Brad Wardell is not like me.

>>> No argument there.

>> Good.

>>> I'm glad you see my point.

>> Why are you so glad that I recognize that Brad Wardell is not like me?

> Because you obviously described yourself with that statement:
> 1]  someone who is a liar

Balderdash, Marty.

>   -- DT]  M] and furthermore wasn't even an analogy

That's not a quotation about a self description, Marty.

> 2]  is known to have a short memory

Incorrect.  Is the below supposed to be some sort of evidence, Marty?

>> Eric Bennett writes:

>>> [Dave tholen wrote:]

>>>> When do you expect to complete your examination?

>>> I do not expect to complete it.

>> Why?

>>> I have more important things to do, like posting in the emulator threads.

> 3]  has a motive to deny the evidence
>  -- your own ridiculously over-inflated ego

Illogical, Marty.

>>>>> I've seen no evidence of this from Brad.

>>>> Try reading his posting in which he claims that there are 1600 postings
>>>> in other newsgroups with people calling me a kook.  Then read my
>>>> rebuttal.

>>> I have.

>> Then you have seen evidence that Brad is a liar.

> No,

Now you're lying as well.

> but I have witnessed more of your own absurdity.

What's allegedly absurd about my evidence, Marty?

>> Why did you claim otherwise?

> See above.

What you wrote above is illogical, Marty.

>>>>>>> Hmm... who should I believe?

>>>>>> Is it logical to believe someone who is known to lie, Marty?

>>>>>>>>> I didn't know you were Brad's accountant.

>>>>>>>> Illogic, given that I don't need to be Brad's accountant to know that
>>>>>>>> Stardock has lost business as a result of Brad's behavior here.

>>>>>>> Bottom line -- Is it hurting Stardock?

>>>>>> At some level.

>>>>> Hurting them implies they are noticing it.

>>>> No it doesn't.

>>> Hurting them implies financial loss which they would notice.

>> Not necessarily, but in this case, the financial loss was explained
>> directly, so he should have noticed.

> What you believe he "should have" done is irrelevant.

On the contrary, it's quite relevant, Marty.

> What he has taken notice of is relevant.

That's only what he'll publicly admit to, Marty.

> He has not taken notice of any financial losses. 

He should, Marty.

> As you are not affiliated with Stardock, you have no further commentary on
> this matter.

My previous commentary was already sufficient, Marty.

>>>>> If they noticed it, they would have dealt with it because it would be
>>>>> harming their business.

>>>> Incorrect, because it is harming their business and they still haven't
>>>> dealt with it.

>>> Prove it, if you think you can.

>> Simple:  Brad hasn't changed his behavior.

> That doesn't prove he's taking any financial losses.

What I was told does.

> Be logical for a change.

I am, as always.

> "Because I said so" doesn't work.

It isn't a matter of what I said.  It's a matter of what I was told.

>>>>> It is not.

>>>> Illogical.  People have also claimed that IBM was harming OS/2, but IBM
>>>> never dealt with those.

>>> This is completely unrelated.

>> Incorrect, given that it demonstrates another case of your illogic above.

> The only thing it demonstrates is your ability to dilute a discussion.

How ironic, coming from someone whose illogic is diluting a discussion.

>>>>>>> Brad's answer is a resounding No.

>>>>>> Brad is a known liar.

>>>>> How ironic.

>>>> What's allegedly ironic about it, Marty?

>>> The fact that you are a known liar.

>> On what basis do you make that claim, Marty?

> DT]  M] and furthermore wasn't even an analogy.

How does the above quotation prove that I am a known liar, Marty?

>>>>>>>>>>>>> I won't even answer to the rest of that paragraph. Anybody who
thinks
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that mob justice is an example of "societal norms" is way beyond 
me
>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyway.

>>>>>>>>>>>> Bravo!  But it's a wonderful example of Brad's brand of
reasoning.

>>>>>>>>>>> Yeah.  Realism.

>>>>>>>>>> More like illogic.

>>>>>>>>> More like realism.

>>>>>>>> More like illogic.

>>>>>>> More like realism.

>>>>>> More like illogic.

>>>>> More like a college professor acting like a 3 year old.

>>>> Are you a college professor, Marty?

>>> No,

>> Then your remark is irrelevant.

> Incorrect, as there is a college professor participating in this
> conversation.

But no 3 year old is, Marty.

>>> and that's precisely my point.

>> Your point is that you're being irrelevant?

> No.  In case you can't figure it out, I'm pointing out that you're acting
> like a three-year-old.

How ironic.

>>> I'm glad you agree.

>> Where is this alleged agreement, Marty?

> Your behavior agrees with my statement.

How ironic.

>>>>> Why am I not surprised?

>>>> Perhaps it's your illogic at work again.

>>> Or your impression of a 3 year old at work again.

>> Actually, I was using your impression of a 3 year old.

> You're right, I did quote you, didn't I?

Irrelevant, Marty.

>>>>> More like realism.

>>>> More like illogic.

>>> More like realism.

>> More like illogic.

> Dave... take a few steps back.  What is the point of this?

You tell me, Marty.  The motivation for you vendetta is illogical.

> Do you have the need to have the last word?

The last word is irrelevant, Marty.  The truth is relevant.

> Honestly.

Then why are you behaving like someone who needs to have the last word,
Marty?

> At least a three year old gets bored and tired after shouting "MINE!"
> 20 times in a row.

Irrelevant, Marty.

> You seem to lack this inhibition.

How ironic.

> Seek help.

Practice what you preach, Marty.

> I think this shows beyond any doubt what an unreasonable person you
> actually are.

What you think is irrelevant, Marty.  Your behavior is speaking volumes
about you, however.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: osric@apk.net                                     30-Aug-99 22:30:20
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 05:26:03
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: Tarquelne <osric@apk.net>

>The perfect mailer hasn't been written yet, meaning there's still room for
>improvement. I believe that's the point Steven was trying to make.

Ok.

                                            Tarquelne
                                       <osric@apk.net>
        I know how God can make a rock so big He can't move it.
                                  ************************
Use the address above to reply - not the anti-spam "Reply-to" address
___________________________________________________________
"I may have said something about the NAACP being un-American
 or communist, but I meant no harm by it."--Alabama federal court nominee
Jefferson Sessions.                                                            
                                                                               
                                                                               
                                                                               
                                                                               
                                                                          


--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: OS2Guy@WarpCity.com                               30-Aug-99 19:26:06
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 05:26:03
Subj: Re: MSWolf in sheep's clothing and nothing more.

From: Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com>

Kris Kwilas wrote:

> In article <37CB126A.CD694C8F@WarpCity.com>, Tim Martin
<OS2Guy@WarpCity.com> wrote:
> >There will be no Stardock Warp2000 (Warp5) product despite
> >the never-ending spam provided by Wardell & Co.  Look
>
> Tim, it is _your_ posts (most especially the ones _you_
> have started with incorrect information) that have been
> the source of "Warp2000 spam" in this newsgroup (and
> others, thanks you your lovely habit of starting similar
> threads in other groups like .misc).
>
> Stardock's stated policy for well over a year has been
> that _someone_ should do an OS/2 client if IBM is not.
>
> Kris

Not gonna work Kris.  Stardock has spent more than
9 months in these newsgroups touting their 'behind
the scenes negotiations with IBM to offer all of the
OS/2 world a Stardock Warp 5 (Warp2000) client.'

It has been nothing more than Stardock spam to sell
faded Stardock OS/2 software that you can't pawn off
elsewhere in an effort to weasel money out of the pockets
of OS/2 users.  It is being done to generate more development
dollars for software that runs on Microsoft operating systems.

You don't even use your own faded OS/2 products.

Your try at rewriting history and finger pointing elsewhere
only reveals you and your co-horts for what you are.

You know as well as I do that Stardock will not be offering
a Warp 5 client to the OS/2 community this year, if ever.
All that hype was nothing more than free Stardock spam
advertising in the OS/2 newsgroups.

That's a fact and unless you can provide the Warp 5 product
it is more accurate than any of your rewrites.

Tim Martin
The OS/2 Guy
Warp City
http://warpcity.com
"E-ride the wild surf to Warp City!"




--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: kwilas@stardock.com                               31-Aug-99 02:58:25
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 05:26:04
Subj: Re: MSWolf in sheep's clothing and nothing more.

From: kwilas@stardock.com (Kris Kwilas)

In article <37CB3D43.1EAC4E6@WarpCity.com>, Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com>
wrote:
>Kris Kwilas wrote:
>> In article <37CB126A.CD694C8F@WarpCity.com>, Tim Martin
<OS2Guy@WarpCity.com>
> wrote:
>> >There will be no Stardock Warp2000 (Warp5) product despite
>> >the never-ending spam provided by Wardell & Co.  Look
>> Tim, it is _your_ posts (most especially the ones _you_
>> have started with incorrect information) that have been
>> the source of "Warp2000 spam" in this newsgroup (and
>> others, thanks you your lovely habit of starting similar
>> threads in other groups like .misc).
>> Stardock's stated policy for well over a year has been
>> that _someone_ should do an OS/2 client if IBM is not.
>Not gonna work Kris.  

There's nothing to "work" Tim, other than you as a punching bag
for spouting "facts", mistruths, and outright lies. 

>Stardock has spent more than
>9 months in these newsgroups touting their 'behind
>the scenes negotiations with IBM to offer all of the
>OS/2 world a Stardock Warp 5 (Warp2000) client.'

Since late March 1999, when you had your inaccurate
"scoop", we've acknowledged that we were negotiating with
IBM to produce a new client. This proceeds. 

>It has been nothing more than Stardock spam to sell
>faded Stardock OS/2 software that you can't pawn off
>elsewhere in an effort to weasel money out of the pockets
>of OS/2 users.  

Our OS/2 products stand on their own merits, but frankly,
they account for so little revenue overall that we aren't
"weaseling" squat. 

>It is being done to generate more development
>dollars for software that runs on Microsoft operating systems.

Our Windows software funds OS/2 development, as has been
stated numerous times. Reading comprehension problems? (I love
that one :)

>You don't even use your own faded OS/2 products.

I most certainly do when I am using OS/2. When I'm at home,
where 99% of my USENET posts come from (there are a couple
from Deja at the office), I use Windows. Why? Because I like to
play games and the vast majority of new games are Win32-based. 

>Your try at rewriting history and finger pointing elsewhere
>only reveals you and your co-horts for what you are.

You are the one pointing fingers, Tim. I'm simply trying to interject some
balance to your vitriol, hate, and rumor-mongering. 

>You know as well as I do that Stardock will not be offering
>a Warp 5 client to the OS/2 community this year, 

Agreee 100% (code availability). 

>if ever.

Disagree 99% (the 1% comes from anyone basing business decisions
on things that are not fully formed or discussed by other than SF-based
webmasters with cracked crystal balls proclaiming themselves as
the "One True Light"). 

>All that hype was nothing more than free Stardock spam
>advertising in the OS/2 newsgroups.

Any hype was generated by you and your numerous threads
deriding matters you have no information about. 

>That's a fact and unless you can provide the Warp 5 product
>it is more accurate than any of your rewrites.

I rewrite nothing and stand by all my statements (including entrapment
of Tholen :). 

But, that doesn't matter to you, does it? No doubt you'll be leading
a Charge Of One against anything SDS/OS/2 related in the future. :-)

Kris

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               30-Aug-99 19:49:08
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 11:04:18
Subj: Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2

From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste)

On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 23:35:26 GMT, Darin McBride recycled some holes into the
following pattern:

>On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 00:53:36 -0700, Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
>
>>>    No, developing OS/2 software and making a living is not mutually
exclusive.
>>
>>Of course not. You develop OS/2 software in your spare time, and make a
>>living developing WIN32 software for pay. But no company seems to be able to
>>make a living by developing shrink-wrap OS/2 software for retail sale.
>
>1. What do you think Brad does for a living????  Here's a hint: it's not
>Win32.  (Then again, I don't do Windows either.)

If you think that OS/2 software is the predominant source of income for IBM,
think again. I phrased my statement carefully: I said "company", not
"employee".

>2. "No company" seems a little harsh.  Are you sure about that?  Absolutely
>zero?  None whatsoever?

I posted a query asking for an example and got no response whatever. Here's
how I described it:

>With Innoval packing it in and moving on to greener pastures, and with 
>Stardock doing most of its business on the other side of the fence, just who 
>does this leave now?
>
>How many real OS/2-exclusive ISVs remain in existence?
>
>I don't mean "Smith Associates" which is Messr. Smith and his home computer 
>working part time in his basement, I mean a real company which is formally 
>incorporated with 20 or more employees working out of a real office to 
>develop commercial shrink-wrap software to sell retail for OS/2 but not for 
>any other platform. There was a time when there were quite a few such 
>companies. Are there any now? Is there even one?

I ask you: can *you* name a company which fits this criterion?

If not, then my statement of "no company" is not harsh at all; rather, it's
simply accurate.

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
              -- Calvin

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: hobbyist@nospam.net                               30-Aug-99 22:45:27
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 11:04:19
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: hobbyist@nospam.net (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hobbyist_=A9?=)

In response to Matthias Warkus's post :

> It was the Sun, 29 Aug 1999 16:31:20 -0400...
> ..and nn <nn@nn.nn> wrote:
> > 
> > A.Lizard <"alizard[spam]"@ecis.com> wrote in message
> > 
> > > In a couple of years, I expect "normal" PCs to be running Linux.
> > 
> > MS is a long way from losing the typical OEM desktop market, most users
> > barely know how to save a file or type in a URL on their computers. Linux
> > will never be even a remote threat because a typical user cannott and does
> > not care to hassle with it. Linux is a pain in the ass to install and
setup,
> > sorry. The millions of home users who are driving the market would reject
a
> > Linux OS on their newly purchased computer instantly.
> 
> You're not only trolling, but a lot behind reality. You can get PCs
> with Linux pre-installed and perfectly set up today (at Red Zac).

Red who?!! <chuckle>

Never heard of them.

I think that you need some sobering up yourself.

-- 
-=Ali=- 

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               31-Aug-99 00:00:19
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 11:04:19
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Hobbyist ’ wrote:
> 
> In response to Matthias Warkus's post :
> 
> > It was the Sun, 29 Aug 1999 16:31:20 -0400...
> > ..and nn <nn@nn.nn> wrote:
> > >
> > > A.Lizard <"alizard[spam]"@ecis.com> wrote in message
> > >
> > > > In a couple of years, I expect "normal" PCs to be running Linux.
> > >
> > > MS is a long way from losing the typical OEM desktop market, most users
> > > barely know how to save a file or type in a URL on their computers.
Linux
> > > will never be even a remote threat because a typical user cannott and
does
> > > not care to hassle with it. Linux is a pain in the ass to install and
setup,
> > > sorry. The millions of home users who are driving the market would
reject a
> > > Linux OS on their newly purchased computer instantly.
> >
> > You're not only trolling, but a lot behind reality. You can get PCs
> > with Linux pre-installed and perfectly set up today (at Red Zac).
> 
> Red who?!! <chuckle>
> 
> Never heard of them.

Maybe he meant Redmond?  ;-)

- Marty

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: nn@nn.nn                                          31-Aug-99 00:04:19
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 11:04:19
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: "nn" <nn@nn.nn>

I wouldn't consider any part of that statement to be trolling - dumb ass.
Everyone knows you can get a PC with Linux installed and have been able to
for about the same length of time that it took Windows to get a 95% or
greater market share. The future of Linux as a home users OS (if it hasn't
already peaked) is dismall , no trolling about it, it's fact. be happy that
it is even as popular as it is now.


Matthias Warkus <mawa@iname.com> wrote in message
news:slrn7sj6t3.6pb.mawa@audrey.my.box...
> It was the Sun, 29 Aug 1999 16:31:20 -0400...
> ..and nn <nn@nn.nn> wrote:
> >
> > A.Lizard <"alizard[spam]"@ecis.com> wrote in message
> >
> > > In a couple of years, I expect "normal" PCs to be running Linux.
> >
> > MS is a long way from losing the typical OEM desktop market, most users
> > barely know how to save a file or type in a URL on their computers.
Linux
> > will never be even a remote threat because a typical user cannott and
does
> > not care to hassle with it. Linux is a pain in the ass to install and
setup,
> > sorry. The millions of home users who are driving the market would
reject a
> > Linux OS on their newly purchased computer instantly.
>
> You're not only trolling, but a lot behind reality. You can get PCs
> with Linux pre-installed and perfectly set up today (at Red Zac).
>
> mawa
> --
> Among all savage beasts, none is found so harmful as woman.
> -- St. John Chrysostom, 304-407.


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: nn@nn.nn                                          31-Aug-99 00:04:29
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 11:04:19
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: "nn" <nn@nn.nn>

I wouldn't consider any part of that statement to be trolling - dumb ass.
Everyone knows you can get a PC with Linux installed and have been able to
for about the same length of time that it took Windows to get a 95% or
greater market share. The future of Linux as a home users OS (if it hasn't
already peaked) is dismall , no trolling about it, it's fact. be happy that
it is even as popular as it is now.


Matthias Warkus <mawa@iname.com> wrote in message
news:slrn7sj6t3.6pb.mawa@audrey.my.box...
> It was the Sun, 29 Aug 1999 16:31:20 -0400...
> ..and nn <nn@nn.nn> wrote:
> >
> > A.Lizard <"alizard[spam]"@ecis.com> wrote in message
> >
> > > In a couple of years, I expect "normal" PCs to be running Linux.
> >
> > MS is a long way from losing the typical OEM desktop market, most users
> > barely know how to save a file or type in a URL on their computers.
Linux
> > will never be even a remote threat because a typical user cannott and
does
> > not care to hassle with it. Linux is a pain in the ass to install and
setup,
> > sorry. The millions of home users who are driving the market would
reject a
> > Linux OS on their newly purchased computer instantly.
>
> You're not only trolling, but a lot behind reality. You can get PCs
> with Linux pre-installed and perfectly set up today (at Red Zac).
>
> mawa
> --
> Among all savage beasts, none is found so harmful as woman.
> -- St. John Chrysostom, 304-407.




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From: bowenjm@rintintin.colorado.edu                    31-Aug-99 04:02:01
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 11:04:19
Subj: Re: MSWolf in sheep's clothing and nothing more.

From: bowenjm@rintintin.colorado.edu (Jason Bowen)

In article <37CB126A.CD694C8F@WarpCity.com>,
Tim Martin  <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com> wrote:
>cawort01@spam.netcom.com wrote:
>
>> Hey Steven,
>>
>> you just asked the question of the month.
>>
>> Care to answer tim?
>>
>> I thought not.
>
>As usual, you think like an idiot.  Are YOU using Stardock's
>Warp 5 product today?  The very same product Stardock
>took to these newsgroups back in November 1998 and claimed
>they would be exclusively providing to the OS/2 community?

Typical lies, they did no such thing.  You have falsely called people
criminals and lied on many occasions.

>
>I thought not.  Please, someone enlighten us all.  Give us
>a release date for Stardock's vaporware Warp2000  (Warp 5)
>product.   If not,  please explain why we were all subjected
>to more than 9 months of Stardock "We're the Number One
>OS/2 Software Developer so buy our faded OS/2 products
>because we're not making any more for you" vaporware hype.

Give us a release date for the Warp 5 client from IBM.  Not the one that
ships with the server, the shrink wrap one for the retail channel.

>
>There will be no Stardock Warp2000 (Warp5) product despite
>the never-ending spam provided by Wardell & Co.  Look
>closely and you'll find that Stardock employees won't use
>their own OS/2 products.  But they'll gladly take your OS/2
>money to help develop more Microsoft-only software.

Again you make stuff up.  Why don't you report me to abuse Timmy, after
all you have me on a short leash right?   Come on show us the mighty Warp
City power.  Of course the recommendation of Warp City can't seem to keep
OS/2 isv's from closing shop, not much power in their recommendations.

> 
>MSWolf In sheep's clothing and nothing more.

Yes you are.

>
>Tim Martin
>The OS/2 Guy
>Warp City
>http://warpcity.com
>"E-ride the wild surf to Warp City!"
>
>
>


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From: bowenjm@rintintin.colorado.edu                    31-Aug-99 04:02:21
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 11:04:19
Subj: Re: MSWolf in sheep's clothing and nothing more.

From: bowenjm@rintintin.colorado.edu (Jason Bowen)

Why do you enjoy lying?

In article <37CB3D43.1EAC4E6@WarpCity.com>,
Tim Martin  <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com> wrote:
>Kris Kwilas wrote:
>
>> In article <37CB126A.CD694C8F@WarpCity.com>, Tim Martin
<OS2Guy@WarpCity.com> wrote:
>> >There will be no Stardock Warp2000 (Warp5) product despite
>> >the never-ending spam provided by Wardell & Co.  Look
>>
>> Tim, it is _your_ posts (most especially the ones _you_
>> have started with incorrect information) that have been
>> the source of "Warp2000 spam" in this newsgroup (and
>> others, thanks you your lovely habit of starting similar
>> threads in other groups like .misc).
>>
>> Stardock's stated policy for well over a year has been
>> that _someone_ should do an OS/2 client if IBM is not.
>>
>> Kris
>
>Not gonna work Kris.  Stardock has spent more than
>9 months in these newsgroups touting their 'behind
>the scenes negotiations with IBM to offer all of the
>OS/2 world a Stardock Warp 5 (Warp2000) client.'
>
>It has been nothing more than Stardock spam to sell
>faded Stardock OS/2 software that you can't pawn off
>elsewhere in an effort to weasel money out of the pockets
>of OS/2 users.  It is being done to generate more development
>dollars for software that runs on Microsoft operating systems.
>
>You don't even use your own faded OS/2 products.
>
>Your try at rewriting history and finger pointing elsewhere
>only reveals you and your co-horts for what you are.
>
>You know as well as I do that Stardock will not be offering
>a Warp 5 client to the OS/2 community this year, if ever.
>All that hype was nothing more than free Stardock spam
>advertising in the OS/2 newsgroups.
>
>That's a fact and unless you can provide the Warp 5 product
>it is more accurate than any of your rewrites.
>
>Tim Martin
>The OS/2 Guy
>Warp City
>http://warpcity.com
>"E-ride the wild surf to Warp City!"
>
>
>
>


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: rogprov@aol.com                                   31-Aug-99 04:19:24
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 11:04:19
Subj: Re: Warp4-and-HPFS386

From: rogprov@aol.com (Rogprov)

In article <37CA875A.E77916E3@ruhr-uni-bochum.de>, Christian Hennecke
<christian.hennecke@ruhr-uni-bochum.de> writes:

>Maybe 90% is a bit much. However, I was talking about homeusers and from
>what I KNOW most of them haven't paid for their copy of MS Office, Adobe
>Photoshop and the like. That's a plain fact!
>
>

I agree, the vast majority of MS homeusers I know run unpaid for applications
-
including the operating system be it Win95 or Win98.  Most seem under the
impression that all the need to pay for is the hardware!

Roger Provins

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: flash-bounce@nym.alias.net                        30-Aug-99 21:16:19
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 11:04:19
Subj: (1/2)  Warp_v4_SuperCharged! 

From: Anonymous <flash-bounce@nym.alias.net>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Installing HPFS386 into a Warp v4 client makes your system FASTER!.  If
you think, this hurts IBM, think again.  The reason IBM does'nt include
HPFS386 into Warp v4 is because MS charges HUGE royalties for EACH copy
of
HPFS386!.  Therefore, IBM only includes it with Warp Server.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
IF YOU ARE AN EXISTING OS/2 WARP USER, THIS GUIDE WILL DESCRIBE HOW YOU
MAY IMPROVE SYSTEM FILE I/O BY 5X TO 10X FACTOR.

note:  This information is provided for educational, and entertainment
purposes only.  

IT is Recommended to print this guide now or save to a file for future
reference.... ;)

Introduction

This is a guide or informative doc,  how to install a quite IMPROVED 
OS/2 Warp v4 to your PC.  This guide is published for intermediate to
power PC users.  Why could you be interested in OS/2?.:
 => Because it is a robust 32-bit OS
 => Excellent Internet services (TCP/IP)
 => Excellent GUI, (named as the best on an important Linux web site)
 => Good support from IBM (Service pak #11 released in july)
 => Excellent 32-bit applications available and 1000's of utilities
 => JVM v1.1.8  The best JVM as reported by Volano and other 
benchmarks
 => YEAR 2K READY!, and more

Want' to try a FREE screensaver?:
http://www.os2ss.com/warpcast/wc1129.html

When installing Wipeout Screen saver, don't install the toolkit with 
OS/2 v4...

This is a guide to OS/2 information, software, resources and more,.. 
if you like challenges, keep reading!.  This time you can setup a more 
powerful PC system than ever.  The final result of this setup maybe
called OS/2 Brutal-Force...

PC newspersons are welcome to build this setup for testing purposes 
and they can have a better prisma to report how good or bad OS/2 is.
Reporting about OS/2 without making reserch, installing it, and
installing appropiate Fixpacks is to be an UN-PROFESSIONAL newsperson.

ATTENTION INTERNATIONAL USERS!, LOTUS SMART SUITE V1.1 FOR OS/2 WARP 4
IS NOW AVAILABLE WITH MULTI-LANGUAGE SUPPORT!!

Sample of OS/2 Applications & Utilities, some with url links:
1) Lotus Smart Suite v1.1 (123, Word Pro, Organizer, 
Approach,Freelance)
http://www.lotus.com/home.nsf/welcome/smartsuiteos2
2) Netscape Communicator v4.61 (July 14, 1999 edition)
http://www.software.ibm.com/warp/netscape
3) IBM Visual Age for JAVA v2 (v3 in beta right now)
http://www.software.ibm.com/ad/vajava
4) Star Office v5.1 (German Office Suite that resembles Office)
http://www.stardivision.com
5) IBM Visual Age for C++ v4
http://www.spoftware.ibm.com/ad/visualge_c++
6) Doctor Solomon Anti-Virus, VirusScan v4.02
http://www.nai.com
7) SETI@OS2
http://www.os2ss.com/seti
8) Emtec FTP 5.06 (with resume capabilities)
ftp://ftp.us.emtec.com/netsuite/eftp506.zip
9)Gamma Tech v4.0
http://www.gt-online.com
10) Object desktop v2.0
http://www.stardock.com
11) PKZIP v2.50
http://www.pkware.com/shareware/pkos2250.html
12) MainActor v3.0 (in development)
13) Pronews v1.51 (excellent usenet reader)
http://hobbes.nmsu.edu
14) IBM TCP/IP v4.1 (32-bit)
15) and more files
http://hobbes.nmsu.edu

One of our goals is to demonstrate that OS/2 is an excellent OS
alternative.

You need a FTP client with resume downloads capabilities.  If you are an
existing OS/2 user, try; Emtec FTP 5.06.  To follow OS/2 topics, use;
Pronews Usenet Reader [highly recommended]

1)  ftp://merlin.itep.ru (lss;os2warez) 

Be patient, many persons are loggin almost every hour and every minute.
Best hours are 2-5 AM.  Warning: Stardock Essentials v2.0 crash OS/2. Be
careful and avoid installing it.  Process Commander is a nice
application, it will save you many problems. But it is recommended to
uninstall it before installing a Fixpack.  Install Process Commander
-=AFTER=- installing FP #11.

Note: OS/2 should be installed to a HPFS partition.  System behavior 
is much better than FAT.

IMPORTANT!!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~
HPFS386 IS NOT COMPATIBLE WITH PARTITION MAGIC (ACL).  Also, you could
have
BIG trouble executing HD utils NOT compatible with HPFS386!. This makes
sense for
an standalone OS/2 system.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~

Always check hardware for compatibility with OS/2,  Suggested 
installation procedure:
   1- Browse through KEY OS/2 web sites and learn about OS/2 
   2- Install OS/2 v4
   3- Install Must-Have utilities (more at the end of the doc)
   4- Get and install Netscape Communicator v4.61
      http://www.software.ibm.com/os/warp/netscape/
   5- Get and install OS/2 Feature Install Version 1.2.4 
      http://service.boulder.ibm.com/asd-bin/doc/en_us/catalog.htm  
   6- Get and install latest JAVA (1.1.7 or latest)
      http://service.boulder.ibm.com/asd-bin/doc/en_us/catalog.htm
   7- Enable software updates through the WWW                   
http://ps.boulder.ibm.com/pbin-usa-ps/getobj.pl?/pdocs-usa/softupd.htm
   8- Update OS/2 v4 (click the OS/2 v4 column, RSU, and Fixpack #11)
   9- Update Spooler
  10- Follow the instructions (be sure to NOT have other applications
running.)
  11- Go and hunt for TCP/IP v4.1 and install it.  This baby will allow
much better 'Interneting'
  12- Go and hunt for other OS/2 applications, particularly in FTP sites
in Russia
  13- Install Lotus Smart Suite v1.1, Star Office, File Manager and 
others. 
  14- Remember TEST DRIVE THEM and buy after 60 dayS TEST DRIVE

     
-------------------------------------------------------------------
and NOW Our Featured Presentation...

SUPER-CHARGE YOUR OS/2 SETUP.  HOW TO USE A BIGGER CACHE, 32-BIT FILE
SYSTEM AND 32-BIT DEVICE DRIVER.  MAKE YOUR OS/2 SYSTEM FASTER THAN
EVER.

HPFS386  --=> High Performance File System 

check fir it in alt.binaries.warez.os2, comp.os.os2.apps
or check around....

This hpfs386 is dated 06/11/99 and is the latest release.  if you're
just using hpfs.ifs,  you can improve your system performance with the
hpfs386 driver.

The hpfs386 is 32bit and can have any cache size you want, plus its
about 4x faster at writing and a bit faster at reading.  It will improve
the speed of your system. Instructions for installing are inside the
hpfs386 zip file. It is easy to do. The instructions are inside the ini
file itself in case you get lost. 

Another note: you'll need to update your config.sys. That information 
is also found in the hpfs386.zip file in the readme instructions.  The
entries are easy to add.  They can be  included at the end of your path
statements and you can literally mark/copy/paste the entry from the 
instruction file directly into your config.sys  paths.   

Make sure you make those entries in your config.sys before you reboot
your system so your system knows  what driver to use and where to find
it. You'll know it worked when 
you reboot and a single  statement across your screen says the hpfs386
driver was found.

HPFS INSTALLATION:
HPFS386 Installation on Warp3, Warp4 ..etc.

Make a directory under c:\ called ibm386fs and copy everything
in this package there..

Edit your config.sys, REM out the hpfs.ifs line, and add these:
IFS=C:\IBM386FS\HPFS386.IFS /A:*
CALL=C:\OS2\CMD.EXE /Q /C C:\IBM386FS\CACHE386.EXE >NUL

Add C:\IBM386FS; to your PATH, LIBPATH and DPATH

Edit HPFS386.INI and change the cachesize to whatever you want
(don't edit anything else!)

Reboot and enjoy!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
2) DANIS506 --=>
http://hobbes.nmsu.edu/pub/os2/system/drivers/storage/danis506.zip


                       Daniela's S506 ADD - Gamma 5
                        ------------------------------
Check for latest release in http://hobbes.nmsu.edu/incoming

NAME
     DaniS506.ADD  -  replacement for IBM1S506.ADD

ATTENTION, Test Results!

RESULTS REPORTED FROM INTEGRATING DANIS506.ADD -=>AND<=- HPFS386 
TO OS/2 AN WARP v4 SYSTEM:  Enjoy...... :)

Before Danis506+HPFS386  (Sysbench 0.9.4e)
>  File I/O - Drive D:
>    4Kb seq.   Uncached w :     3878.003    Kilobytes/second
>    4Kb seq.   Uncached r :     5811.515    Kilobytes/second
	.
	.
>    64K random Cached   w :     4906.782    Kilobytes/second
>    64K random Cached   r :     2672.974    Kilobytes/second
>    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>    Total                 :     3096.124    File I/O-marks
>                               ==========

AFTER DANIS506+HPFS386
>  File I/O - Drive D:
>    4Kb seq.   Uncached w :     2268.435    Kilobytes/second
>    4Kb seq.   Uncached r :    30223.332    Kilobytes/second
	.
	.
>    64K random Cached   w :    57649.151    Kilobytes/second
>    64K random Cached   r :    52182.161    Kilobytes/second
>    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>    Total                 :    31493.542    File I/O-marks
>                              ============

System File I/O-marks increased by a factor of 10X!, sure your results
will vary but it seems a definitive and substantial improvement that
positions OS/2 Warp v4 as a quite attractive computing and SOHO
platform.

What is a Fixpack?

For a complete description,check:
http://www.os2ezine.com/v1n4/fixpak.html

To UPDATE your system to the most recent fixpack level check:
http://ps.boulder.ibm.com/pbin-usa-ps/getobj.pl?/pdocs-usa/softupd.htm

TIP: You will need a file named RSUINST.EXE  download it from

http://ps.boulder.ibm.com/pbin-usa-ps/getobj.pl?/pdocs-usa/softupd.htm
l#warp34

Now your OS/2 v4 should run like a champ!, browse through OS/2
newsgroups for any help or question you may have :/

If for any reason OS/2 'hangs' while booting, you have a 'MIRACLE' 
KEYpress ALT-F1 while OS/2 boots (There will be a small OS/2 rectangle
in the upper left corner of your monitor...  Follow the alternatives o
FIX the CONFIG.SYS file  if you messed with it...It will be wise to 
make backup copies of OS2.INI and OS2SYS.INI files. Use FM/2 file
manager to do it.

Try to have BACKUP copies of CONFIG.SYS.  just in case......If you need
help:
comp.os.os2.apps,comp.os.os2.beta,comp.os.os2.bugs,comp.os.os2.setup.misc
comp.os.os2.setup.video,comp.os.os2.setup.storage

Hardware considerations:

IBM HAS DEVELOPED OS/2 DEVICE DRIVER PAK ONLINE, THIS WEB SITE HAVE
THOUNSANDS OF DRIVERS.  
http://service.software.ibm.com/os2ddpak/index.htm

-=-> Last choice, replace the UNSUPPORTED COMPONENT for a supported
ONE.  This will depend on your motivation to use OS/2 Warp v4 <-=-=-

OS/2 WARP - SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS
Minimum Hardware Configuration. The hardware requirements for OS/2 
Warp 4 vary depending on the 
options installed and the applications you wish to run on the   
machine. Here are the minimum requirements for 
a typical computer environment: 486 or better CPU, 32MB RAM (or more),
ATAPI CD ROM, 100-300 MB HD.
OS/2 supported sound card for audio and multimedia applications
       
TIP:
If after installing an application you notice problems, edit OS2.INI 
file and remove references to the 
application.

KEY LINKS: --=> These are the best places for  OS/2 information: <=--

Information for OS/2 new users or potential ones:
A must for anyone that want to know the TRUTH about OS/2!
http://www.os2ss.com/Information/NewUsers/
http://www.honeycomb.net/os/oses/os2.htm

EZINES:
http://www.os2ezine.com
http://www.os2ss.com
http://www.edm2.com/
http://os2about.com

OS/2 FILES
http://hobbes.nmsu.edu
http://www.os2bbs.com
http://service.boulder.ibm.com/asd-bin/doc/en_us/catalog.htm
http://www.leo.org/archiv/software/os2/
ftp://merlin.itep.ru   [lss;os2warez]

OS/2 NEWS
http://www.os2ss.com/news
http://www.warpcast.com

VENDORS:
http://www.indelible-blue.com/scott/ibnews.nsf
http://www.bmtmicro.com

JAVA IDES THAT SUPPORT OS/2
Visual Age For JAVA - less than $90
http://www.software.ibm.com/ad/

Netbeans - FREE
http://www.netbeans.com

Simplicity for JAVA
http://www.datarepresentations.com/

Netrexx - FREE
http://www2.hursley.ibm.com/netrexx/

IBM ALPHAWORKS Web Site -  FREE
http://www.alphaWorks.ibm.com/formula

More information about OS/2 and JAVA
http://www.doofus.org/Java/

Check The OS/2 alternative Web Site: 
http://www.tstonramp.com/~freiheit/os2apps.shtml

WIN32 Support in OS/2:
http://www.netlabs.org/odin/

Linux/Unix and OS/2:
http://www.netlabs.org/everblue/

Check OS/2 organizations like:
http://www.netlabs.org
http://en.os2.org

Virtual Pascal
http://www.fprint.co.uk/products/virtual_pascal/

OS/2 and Sound Cards
http://www.tabi.org/timur/crystalos2.html

PKZIP v2.50
http://www.pkware.com

Remember:  Buy those applications  *IF*  you decide to continue use 
them's after 6 months TEST DRIVE

Other links:
Watcom C++ Compiler v11.0a
Nader Letter to IBM:
http://www.zdnet.com/sr/breaking/980608/980608f.html
WWW WYSIWYG editor
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/clerin/
Large OS/2 Customer list
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~meile/los2cl.html
XIMATI OS/2 Web Server - FREE
http://www.imatix.com/html/xitami/index.htm
V C++ GUI Development framework
http://www.objectcentral.com/
Warp 4  Engage
http://www2.hu-berlin.de/~h0444vnd/os2.htm
White Paper:  Advantages of OS/2 v4 over  WIN NT v4
http://www.minzdat.ch/forum/tanos/pages/merlinnt2.htm
Cable modems and OS/2 Warp v4
http://members.home.net/bhubley/cableintro.html
Blackdeath software
http://sprk.com/blackdeath/
Pillarsoft
http://www.pillarsoft.net/
DIGITAL Cameras and OS/2
http://users.uniserve.ca/~software/dcitu/index.html
Independent developer
http://en.os2.org/projects/indos2/
Config documentation
http://www.online.de/home/os2/csdp/about.htm
The OS/2 HISTORY
http://www.hartnell.cc.ca.us/student/hacnc/altos/OS2History.html
Visual PROLOG
http://www.visual-prolog.com/vip/vipinfo/freeware_version.htm
SETI
http://www.os2ss.com/seti

Like Arcade GAMES?, try M.A.M.E.

http://hobbes.nmsu.edu/cgi-bin/h-search?key=mame&pushbutton=Search
ROMS:
http://www.ArcadeAtHome.com/

Last but not least,we are seeking developers to join OS/2.  Tools 
available includes JAVA, C++ (GNU, Visual 
Age for C++ v4),  Pascal, Rexx, Netrexx. There are others.

THE OS/2 WARP DEVELOPERS TOOLKIT IS AVAILABLE AT ONE OF THE TWO URL'S
PROVIDED HERE. JOIN OS/2 NOW!

Join one of many projects at http://www.netlabs.org

Maybe, it will be WISE to buy OS/2 V4 rather than try to download it 
since it is a 250MB file.  LOTUS SS v1.1 

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
 * Origin: Usenet: mail2news@nym.alias.net (1:109/42)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: flash-bounce@nym.alias.net                        30-Aug-99 21:16:19
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 11:04:19
Subj: (2/2)  Warp_v4_SuperCharged! 

could be downloaded with EMTEC FTP and resuming file download will be 
required since many users are
connecting to those URL's. YES This message is working!...

Note:
OS/2 v4 is available from Indelible Blue..

NOTE:
If you don't want to bother downloading The OS/2 Warp 250MB file or 
LOTUS SMART SUITE V1.1 (1999) 
Edition , Goto INDELIBLE BLUE:

   * LOTUS SMART SUITE ACADEMIC VERSION IS ONLY $83  (AN648NA)
http://www.indelible-blue.com/ibapps/products.nsf/by+partnumber/AN645N
A

   * OS/2 V4 ACADEMIC VERSION IS ONLY $85 (84H7459)
http://www.indelible-blue.com/ibapps/products.nsf/by+partnumber/84H745
9)

What it takes?  The  GUTS to install OS/2 Are you so GOOD?

TIP:
USE ALT-F1 WHEN BOOTING FAILS.  IT IS NOT COMMON BUT THIS IS A GREAT
TRICK!
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
IMPORTANT NOTE:
If you find this info interesting or useful, save to a file NOW!.  You
don't know when you may need it!.  Also, 
you could make copies (or forward through email) for your friends.  
This guide will not be posted
anymore to usenet.  Maybe someone could post it from time to time...

WHAT YOU CAN DO?:
   * Forward this message to your friends. You could forward through 
an
     anonymous remailer.  More about remailers later..
   * Forward (through anonymous remailers also) to PC Newspersons
        o Techwire
        o Infoworld
        o PC World
        o ZDNet
        o Or other
   * Post (anonymously, if you want) to OS-related Newsgroups
   * Tell PC media you use, like and use OS/2
   * Ask the press for better coverage of OS/2 (ZDNet, Infoworld,
     Techweb)
   * If you are an OS expert and have capabilities and bandwidth
     resources to put online an FTP server,(someone in Europe? 
     or latin america?) with key apps, utils, etc..

Must Have utilities (THE BASICS):

A)    INFOZIP UNZIP (EQUIVALENT TO PKUNZIP.EXE)
ftp://hobbes.nmsu.edu/pub/os2/archiver/unz540x2.exe
Installation:
1)make dir \UNZIP in c: d: or whatever OS/2 partition
2)copy and extract unz540x2.exe into \unzip
3)edit config.sys and add \unzip to the path
4)remember to end \unzip reference in the path with ;

B)    FILE_MANAGER
ftp://ftp.bmtmicro.com/bmtmicro/fm2_301.zip
Installation:
1)make dir \FM2 (or whatever) in c: d: or whatever OS/2 partition
2)copy and extract fm2_301.zip \FM2 (or whatever)
3)run install.cmd

C)    CONFIG.SYS  ANALYZER OPTIMIZER
ftp://hobbes.nmsu.edu/pub/os2/util/config/cfgmt100.zip
Installation
1) Make dir \cfgmt (or whatever)
2) Copy cfgmt100.zip and extract with unzip.exe
3) run install.cmd

D)    EMX (optional, required for some utilities and GNU)
ftp://hobbes.nmsu.edu/pub/os2/dev/emx/v0.9d/emxrt.zip

Installation
1) copy emxrt.zip to c:\ (root)
2) unzip with unzip.exe (it should create a sub-dir \emx, test first 
in
other dir if you want)
3) Add \emx\bin to config.sys path, add emx\dll to config.sys library
path

E)    Sysbench 0.9.e
ftp://hobbes.nmsu.edu/pub/os2/util/benchmark/sysb094e.zip

F)    Memsize - System Resources Monitor
http://www.msen.com/~rpapo

G)    Process Commander (after basic Install, upgrade with pcfix1.zip)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
PC Newsreporters, what we can do with them?.  Ok, we can suggest to 
forward (anonymously) this message to the news person of your choice.
This will tell them how to 'tweak' OS/2 for greater performance.  Linux
user's like to tweak their systems (and press people respect that) we 
have the right to make the same to our 
OS.

You can choose anyone and send this message to make them aware that 
OS/2 can be Super-Charged.  Maybe, one of them could have the guts (or
courage) to make it and run some benchmarks against Win 98, Win 2000,
and Win NT 4.  It should be interesting to see results with  a
Super-Charged OS/2 setup (FP11, DANIS506, and HPFS386) against Win 98,
Win 2000, and Win NT 4.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Newspersons and email contact info...
You may also send a copy of this guide to your prefered newsperson to 
make he(she) aware of the OS/2 
"Tweak" and Tricks included here.  You may want to send via 
anonymous... see below...

 Name                   	email address                 
Publication/WebSite
 Infoworld              	electric@infoworld.com        	InfoWorld
 Mary Joe Foley         	mfoley@zd.com                 	Sm@rtReseller
 Tom Yager              	tyager@maxx.net               	InfoWorld
 Charles Cooper         	charles_cooper@zd.com         	ZDNET News
 Editor                 	pcmag@zd.com                  	PC Magazine 
 John Clyman            	john_clyman@zd.com            	PC Magazine 
 Michael Fitzgerald     	michael_fitzgerald@zd.com     	ZDNET
 Maria Seminerio        	maria_seminerio@zd.com        	ZDNET
 Sean Silverthorne      	sean_silverthorne@zd.com      	ZDNET
 ZDNet Benchmarks 	zdbopwebmaster@zd.com 	ZD Benchmarks
 Scott Berlinato        	scott_berinato@zd.com         	PC Week
 Claudia Graziano       	claudia_graziano@zd.com       	PC Week
 John Madden            	john_madden@zd.com            	PC Week
 James Miller           	james_miller@zd.com           	PC Magazine
 Alan Zeichick          	zeichick@camdenassociates.com TechWeb/CMP
 David Lidski           	dlidsky@zd.com               	PC Magazine
 Sharon Terdeman 	sharon_terdeman@zd.com        	PC Magazine
 Wayne Rash     	wrash@mindspring.com          	TechWeb/CMP
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How to send anonymous email and/or post anonimously to usenet:
http://www.skuz.net/potatoware/reli/UserMan.htm
http://www.replay.com/remailer/
http://mail2news.cjb.net/
ttp://www.mute.dircon.co.uk/remailers.html
http://www.metcorp.com/sean/remail.html
http://www.skuz.net/potatoware/reli/UserMan.htm
NEWSGROUP: alt.privacy.anon-server
thread--=> List of Reliable Remailers --=> Updated daily!

NOTE: SOME REMAILERS ARE UP/AND DOWN EASILY. Test First!, and test 
with
dummy messages to some dummy newsgroup.  

::
request-remailing-to: remailer@replay.com

::
request-remailing-to: remailer@xxxxx.com

::
Anon-post-to:newsgroup
or 
Anon-to: john_doe@columbia.net

##
subject:whatever
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Remailers reliability and info...
alt.privacy.anon-server

Attention if you receive this doc, please forward to a fellow worker 
who might be interested in this info...

INTERESTING TIP:
You can forward this message from usenet to your own email account 
(Pronews forward, right side) and 'Edit Message as New' with
Communicator 4.61 and repost to usenet if you want or forward to a
friend or to a newsperson.

Chiao!

Extra:
modify config.sys
SET MENUSFOLLOWPOINTER=YES

and you will have a more functional mouse pointer..ala Win 95!

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: baden@unixg.ubc.ca                                31-Aug-99 05:48:07
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 11:04:19
Subj: Re: HPFS386, The Reality...

From: baden@unixg.ubc.ca   (Baden Kudrenecky)

In <37CAC8E8.8A0A73F0@fh-muenchen.de>, Martin Bunzel FH
<bunzel@fh-muenchen.de> writes:

>....I heard about a fight. Do you really think FS386 is faster? - As I
>measured under Warp4, it is not under all circumstances: depending on

   My bench tests are all skewed by the cache, but it appears to
be faster.

>CPU last for file i/o and file size one can have respectable results
>with normal HPFS. Another case is that your machine will not boot up
>with HPFS, if the drive is formated for HPFS386.

   Only if you enable drive and file security.  AFAIK, the file
system is the same for both IFS, as i can access my HPFS386
drive with HPFS.


baden

baden@unixg.ubc.ca
http://baden.nu/
OS/2, Solaris & Linux

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               30-Aug-99 22:19:00
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 11:04:19
Subj: Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2

From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste)

On Tue, 31 Aug 1999 01:08:09 +0200, Gerben Bergman recycled some holes into
the following pattern:

>Lean a little closer to the plant, Steven C. Den Beste, and tell me about
>"Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2"...
>
>| >The OS/2 version works great.
>| 
>| Are you sure it permits regular expressions in kill filters (which Agent
>| permits),
>
>PMMail has two types of filters: "simple" and "complex". The "complex"
>option lets you create filters with SouthSoft's own "Internet Communication
>Search Language" (ICSL), which "uses Boolean (AND, OR, and NOT) connectors
>and parenthetical groupings to allow extremely powerful filters, completely
>under your control". So the answer to your question is probably "yes".
>
>| or that it can filter based on the contents of an article (as opposed to
>| just the header information including the subject line, which Agent doesn't
>| permit but I wish it did)?
>
>Yup; PMMail can filter based on the contents of the header, body, and whole
>message, on attachment names, as well as on the To:, From:, Cc:, and
>Subject: fields.
>
>| Does PMMail offer this degree of flexibility?
>| 
>|  ...or is it just the fact that it runs on OS/2, so it must by definition
be
>| superior?
>
>I think filtering is the wrong area to praise Agent over PMMail, Steven.

I kind of get the impression that you don't understand the power of regular
expressions. There's much more to them than "using boolean connectors and
parenthetical groupings" etc. -- which Agent also permits, as you well know.

Let's take the specific example I used which the other guy clipped out:

I automatically killfile any mail message whose subject doesn't contain at
least one lower case letter. How would you do that in PMMail? Here's how it
is done in Agent:

    subject: =%{[^a-z]+}

Dissected, here's what it means:

=    match entire expression
%    expression is case sensitive
{}   concatanate all items contained herein
[]   a complex expression describing a single character
^    invert what follows
a-z  match any lower case letter
+    as suffix, means "one or more of"

So the entire thing means "Checking case sensitively the entire subject
field, find a string consisting exclusively of characters which do not
include any lower case alphabetic characters".

A regular expression is actually a computer program for a small state
machine.

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
              -- Calvin

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: OS2Guy@WarpCity.com                               30-Aug-99 23:13:18
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 11:04:19
Subj: Re: MSWolf in sheep's clothing and nothing more.

From: Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com>

Kris Kwilas wrote:

> But, that doesn't matter to you, does it? No doubt you'll be leading
> a Charge Of One against anything SDS/OS/2 related in the future. :-)
>

Stardock is rarely, if ever, mentioned at Warp City.  There
is simply no reason to do so.  Stardock is a Windows software
developer seeking money out of OS/2 users to fund development
of software for Microsoft operating systems.  Why you people
persist with this "we support OS/2" facade is silly.  Your claim
that your windows software sales support your OS/2 software
is stupid.  OS/2 users don't buy your OS/2 software because
it is just too old.  Stardock's reputation is often equated to SPGs.
The only difference is SPG is gone but Stardock is still here,
still trying to con the OS/2 user, still spamming the newsgroups,
still playing that vaporware carrot game.

You claim there is no OS/2 market.  Put up or shut up.  Release
your faded OS/2 software.  Show some class and style.  We all
know you have no intention of ever supporting OS/2 again.
Open your site to free OS/2 downloads and walk away.
Release the source code to those OS/2 programmers who really
love OS/2 and can actually offer the OS/2 community something
worthwhile instead of never-ending spam and vaporware ads.

Tim Martin
The OS/2 Guy
Warp City
http://warpcity.com
"E-ride the wild surf to Warp City!"






--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
 * Origin: Usenet: Warp City (http://warpcity.com) (1:109/42)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: pcguido@ibm.net                                   31-Aug-99 06:17:01
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 11:04:19
Subj: Re: vmware mistake

From: pcguido@ibm.net

In <LoEFmgJJ9ecw-pn2-FLsT4sB3NV0F@agave.bitranch.com>, esther@bitranch.com
(Esther Schindler) writes:
|On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 01:14:45, tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith) wrote:
||	I'm flaming him
|| because in that apology, he said ...
|
|But why flame at all?
|
|Why not simply correct the error? Why give someone the satisfaction of
|raising your ire?
|
|--Esther

Why not strew flowers at his feet? Why not give out free chocolates
to the assholes so as to impress them with how cool OS2/you is/are?

Why not insult just about everbody by treating just about everybody
like they are in 3rd grade?

Why not let people be individuals instead of little cookie-cutter
shapes, iced in pink?

Why not indeed?

regards,

Guido



--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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(1:109/42)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: pcguido@ibm.net                                   31-Aug-99 06:23:19
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 11:04:19
Subj: Re: vmware mistake

From: pcguido@ibm.net

In <LoEFmgJJ9ecw-pn2-tXTKRJXCzWhS@agave.bitranch.com>, esther@bitranch.com
(Esther Schindler) writes:
|On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 21:53:26, JM <malstrom@emily.oit.umass.edu> wrote:
|
|| : Why not simply correct the error? Why give someone the satisfaction of
|| : raising your ire?
||
|| Most of us here are of the male gender and we take satisfaction in
|| sending witty little flames in the direction of our detractors.	I really
|| think it might release endorphines into our brain or something.
|
|Well, that's a refreshingly honest perspective on the matter. <big,
|genuine grin>
|
|--Esther

Hmmm, I think that grin is much more attractive that the
school-marm scowl, Eshter.

For whatever that may have been worth..

:) Guido

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: pcguido@ibm.net                                   31-Aug-99 06:25:03
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 11:04:19
Subj: Re: vmware mistake

From: pcguido@ibm.net

In <37caeb9b.0@oit.umass.edu>, JM <malstrom@emily.oit.umass.edu> writes:
|Mike Ruskai <thannymeister@spambegone.yahoo.com> wrote:
|: On 29 Aug 1999 22:46:38 -0500, JM wrote:
|
|: [snip]
|
|:|Since when has David's, AKA Kelly Robinson's intentions been well meaning??
|
|: Am I correct in assuming that you mean Kelly Robinson is an alias for
|: David H. McCoy?
|
|: If so, that would explain a lot.
|
|No, as some other posters have pointed out I'm referring to David P
|Cole AKA Xerophyte AKA Infinity Rising AKA Kelly Robinson
|
|-Jason

Hey!

You left out: AKA Dim Bulb

:) Guido

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: possum@tree.branch                                31-Aug-99 11:43:09
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 14:56:01
Subj: Re: MSWolf in sheep's clothing and nothing more.

From: possum@tree.branch (Mike Trettel)

On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 23:13:37 -0700, Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com> wrote:
>Kris Kwilas wrote:
>
>> But, that doesn't matter to you, does it? No doubt you'll be leading
>> a Charge Of One against anything SDS/OS/2 related in the future. :-)
>>

>You claim there is no OS/2 market.  Put up or shut up.  Release
>your faded OS/2 software.  Show some class and style.  We all
>know you have no intention of ever supporting OS/2 again.
>Open your site to free OS/2 downloads and walk away.
>Release the source code to those OS/2 programmers who really
>love OS/2 and can actually offer the OS/2 community something
>worthwhile instead of never-ending spam and vaporware ads.
>
>Tim Martin
>The OS/2 Guy
>Warp City
>http://warpcity.com
>"E-ride the wild surf to Warp City!"

For once you touch upon the truth, Timmy.  You praise Dan Porter for
giving it away when he decided it was time to leave, and now you want to
hit on Stardock for free software too. Combine this with your questionable
attitude regarding warez and it becomes quite clear-you're a parasite,
pure and simple.  Not willing to pay for someone else's work, but quite
willing and eager to stick your hand out if it's free.  I'll be looking
forward to your review of the SDS Warp 5 client (assuming it happens, and
I hope it will), since it's pretty unlikely you'll actually pay for it and
there's no reason whatosever for SDS to give you a complimentary copy.

It's also pretty ironic that you complain about SDS spam, when your own
sig is spam.
-- 
===========
Mike Trettel    trettel (Shift 2) fred (dinky little round thing) net

I don't buy from spammers.  No exceptions.  Fix the reply line to mail me.

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: ivaes@hr.nl                                       31-Aug-99 13:25:16
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 14:56:01
Subj: Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2

From: Illya Vaes <ivaes@hr.nl>

"Steven C. Den Beste" wrote:
>On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 23:35:26 GMT, Darin McBride
>>On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 00:53:36 -0700, Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
>>>On Sun, 29 Aug 1999 23:44:44 -0400, Brad Barclay
>>>>No, developing OS/2 software and making a living is not mutually
>>>>exclusive.
>>>Of course not. You develop OS/2 software in your spare time, and make a
>>>living developing WIN32 software for pay. But no company seems to be able
>>>to make a living by developing shrink-wrap OS/2 software for retail sale.
>>1. What do you think Brad does for a living????  Here's a hint: it's not
>>Win32.  (Then again, I don't do Windows either.)
>If you think that OS/2 software is the predominant source of income for
>IBM, think again. I phrased my statement carefully: I said "company", not
>"employee".

No, you said (to Brad) "You develop OS/2 software in your spare time, and make
a living developing WIN32 software for pay" (and _then_ turned to companies).
You = Brad, who makes a living developing OS/2 software.
If you're trying to lie your way out, you should at least not be dumb enough
to even let the quote that proves you wrong stay in sight.

-- 
Illya Vaes   (ivaes@hr.nl)        "Do...or do not, there is no 'try'" - Yoda
Holland Railconsult BV, Integral Management of Railprocess Systems
Postbus 2855, 3500 GW Utrecht
Tel +31.30.2357382, Fax 2357395           Not speaking for anyone but myself

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mcbrides@erols.com                                31-Aug-99 07:22:09
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 14:56:01
Subj: Sun to proliferate Star Office...

From: mcbrides@erols.com (Jerry McBride)

Wow, have a look at this:

---

 "Both StarPortal and the conventional versions of the
  software will be given away for free to all comers, not just
  the educational and home users that used to be able to get
  Star Office without paying. That price tag stands in stark
  contrast to Microsoft Office, which costs about $400 for a
  basic version and much more for premium versions."

Full story:
  http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,41111,00.html?owv

---

MicroSoft just got some serious competition in the offic suite area. Tough
decision... spend $400.00 or get one for free. Plus the Java version...

--

*******************************************************************************

*            Sometimes, the BEST things in life really ARE free...           
*
*       Get a FREE copy of NetRexx 1.150 for your next java project at:      
*
*                     http://www2.hursley.ibm.com/netrexx                    
*
*                                                                            
*
*                    Have you rebooted your NT box today?                    
*
*******************************************************************************



/----------------------------------------\
| From the desktop of: Jerome D. McBride |
|         mcbrides@erols.com             |
\----------------------------------------/

--

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: rerbert@wxs.nl                                    31-Aug-99 14:04:00
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 14:56:01
Subj: Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2

From: rerbert@wxs.nl (Gerben Bergman)

After a long, hard day of battling the soulless minions of orthodoxy, I came
home just in time to see Steven C. Den Beste writing:

| >PMMail has two types of filters: "simple" and "complex". The "complex"
| >option lets you create filters with SouthSoft's own "Internet Communication
| >Search Language" (ICSL), which "uses Boolean (AND, OR, and NOT) connectors
| >and parenthetical groupings to allow extremely powerful filters, completely
| >under your control". So the answer to your question is probably "yes".
| 
| I kind of get the impression that you don't understand the power of regular
| expressions. There's much more to them than "using boolean connectors and
| parenthetical groupings" etc.

You're quite correct; I usually stick to filters of the "simple" variety
("From: Tholen OR From: warpcity.com"). It's just that PMMail's ICSL stuff
seemed pretty complex at first sight, and so I assumed it could *probably*
do what you were talking about.

BUT, PMMail can filter based on the contents of the message body, which
Agent cannot do. That's a plus, right? :)

--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: rjf@yyycomasia.com                                31-Aug-99 13:07:10
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 14:56:01
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito

From: rjf@yyycomasia.com (rj friedman)

On Tue, 31 Aug 1999 01:24:48, "Brad Wardell" 
<bwardell@mw.mediaone.net> wrote:

īIt's almost robotic isn't it?  No wonder Tholen keeps winning kook of the
īmonth.

What's robotic is your continued prattling about Dave 
winning a `kook of the month' award, when you know very well
that the poll you keep referring to was nothing more than a 
juvenile prank played by one of Dave's long term harassers -
in which he rigged the whole thing - including the bogus 
list of people - which most definitely was not in the 
hundreds.

The guy even outright admitted it was a prank, and that he 
did it for the fun of it (this has also been pointed out to 
you on more than one occasion).

The fact that you insist on offering this as evidence of 
anything other than the juvenile prank it was, shows that 
either you have absolutely no sense of judgement, or that 
you are deliberately misrepresenting this in order to 
discredit Dave.

Then, again, smear tactics seems to be your primary line of 
defense when it comes to cooa debate.

Definition of `kook':

	Description of a person who has the effrontery 
	to disagree with Brad Wardell.


Definition of Smear Tactic

	1. Attempt to discredit another by making unsubstantiated 
	disparaging allegations about their character; said 
allegations 
	having no basis in fact. Used with devastating effect by 
one 
	US Senator, Joseph McCarthy during days as head witch 
hunter 
	for the House UnAmerican Activities Committee.

	2. Primary debate tactic of Brad Wardell in cooa


________________________________________________________

[RJ]                 OS/2 - Live it, or live with it. 
rj friedman          Team ABW              
Taipei, Taiwan       rjf@yyycomasia.com 

To send email - remove the `yyy'
________________________________________________________

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From: bowenjm@rintintin.colorado.edu                    31-Aug-99 13:45:02
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 14:56:01
Subj: Re: MSWolf in sheep's clothing and nothing more.

From: bowenjm@rintintin.colorado.edu (Jason Bowen)

In article <37CB7291.581E2203@WarpCity.com>,
Tim Martin  <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com> wrote:
>Kris Kwilas wrote:
>
>> But, that doesn't matter to you, does it? No doubt you'll be leading
>> a Charge Of One against anything SDS/OS/2 related in the future. :-)
>>
>
>Stardock is rarely, if ever, mentioned at Warp City.  There
>is simply no reason to do so.  Stardock is a Windows software

You love to talk about them here though, why the disparity?  It does seem
odd that you do condsidering your claim that OS/2 users avoid the
newsgroups.  You instruct Warp City members to avoid the newsgroups yet
post here.

>developer seeking money out of OS/2 users to fund development
>of software for Microsoft operating systems.  Why you people
>persist with this "we support OS/2" facade is silly.  Your claim
>that your windows software sales support your OS/2 software
>is stupid.  OS/2 users don't buy your OS/2 software because
>it is just too old.  Stardock's reputation is often equated to SPGs.
>The only difference is SPG is gone but Stardock is still here,
>still trying to con the OS/2 user, still spamming the newsgroups,
>still playing that vaporware carrot game.

Still lieing I see.

>
>You claim there is no OS/2 market.  Put up or shut up.  Release
>your faded OS/2 software.  Show some class and style.  We all
>know you have no intention of ever supporting OS/2 again.
>Open your site to free OS/2 downloads and walk away.
>Release the source code to those OS/2 programmers who really
>love OS/2 and can actually offer the OS/2 community something
>worthwhile instead of never-ending spam and vaporware ads.

Do you read what you write Tim?  Your ramblings make no sense.

>
>Tim Martin
>The OS/2 Guy
>Warp City
>http://warpcity.com
>"E-ride the wild surf to Warp City!"
>
>
>
>
>
>


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From: bwardell@mw.mediaone.net                          31-Aug-99 14:18:22
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 14:56:01
Subj: Re: MSWolf in sheep's clothing and nothing more.

From: "Brad Wardell" <bwardell@mw.mediaone.net>

Mike Trettel <possum@tree.branch> wrote in message
news:slrn7snfun.9q2.possum@ss5.fred.net...
> On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 23:13:37 -0700, Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com>
wrote:
> >Kris Kwilas wrote:
> >
> >> But, that doesn't matter to you, does it? No doubt you'll be leading
> >> a Charge Of One against anything SDS/OS/2 related in the future. :-)
> >>
>
> >You claim there is no OS/2 market.  Put up or shut up.  Release
> >your faded OS/2 software.  Show some class and style.  We all
> >know you have no intention of ever supporting OS/2 again.
> >Open your site to free OS/2 downloads and walk away.
> >Release the source code to those OS/2 programmers who really
> >love OS/2 and can actually offer the OS/2 community something
> >worthwhile instead of never-ending spam and vaporware ads.
> >
> >Tim Martin
> >The OS/2 Guy
> >Warp City
> >http://warpcity.com
> >"E-ride the wild surf to Warp City!"
>
> For once you touch upon the truth, Timmy.  You praise Dan Porter for
> giving it away when he decided it was time to leave, and now you want to
> hit on Stardock for free software too. Combine this with your questionable
> attitude regarding warez and it becomes quite clear-you're a parasite,
> pure and simple.  Not willing to pay for someone else's work, but quite
> willing and eager to stick your hand out if it's free.  I'll be looking
> forward to your review of the SDS Warp 5 client (assuming it happens, and
> I hope it will), since it's pretty unlikely you'll actually pay for it and
> there's no reason whatosever for SDS to give you a complimentary copy.
>
> It's also pretty ironic that you complain about SDS spam, when your own
> sig is spam.

The other weird thing is that Stardock has OS/2 software in development that
is FREE to download and try out right now.

Stellar Frontier, a native OS/2 game is unreleased but currently available
to anyone who wants to download it.

We also have work going on Object Desktop 2.02, and a couple of unannounced
projects for OS/2.

It is almost unbelievable that Tim would say these things given one visit to
Stardock's website makes it clear not in word but in deed that more OS/2
development is currently in progress.

Brad


> --
> ===========
> Mike Trettel    trettel (Shift 2) fred (dinky little round thing) net
>
> I don't buy from spammers.  No exceptions.  Fix the reply line to mail me.


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From: djohnson@isomedia.com                             31-Aug-99 07:41:11
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 14:56:02
Subj: Re: Sun to proliferate Star Office...

From: "David T. Johnson" <djohnson@isomedia.com>

Jerry McBride wrote:
> 
> Wow, have a look at this:
> 
> ---
> 
>  "Both StarPortal and the conventional versions of the
>   software will be given away for free to all comers, not just
>   the educational and home users that used to be able to get
>   Star Office without paying. That price tag stands in stark
>   contrast to Microsoft Office, which costs about $400 for a
>   basic version and much more for premium versions."
> 
> Full story:
>   http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,41111,00.html?owv
> 
> ---
> 
> MicroSoft just got some serious competition in the offic suite area. Tough
> decision... spend $400.00 or get one for free. Plus the Java version...
> 

Yes, and it looks like they intend to continue offering the OS/2
version!

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From: cawort01@spam.netcom.com                          31-Aug-99 14:45:29
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 14:56:02
Subj: Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2

From: cawort01@spam.netcom.com

OK I did a couple minutes of looking...

In <37caf1e3.21014787@news.wxs.nl>, rerbert@wxs.nl (Gerben Bergman) writes:
>On 30 Aug 1999 20:01:25 GMT, an entity calling itself
>"cawort01@spam.netcom.com" uttered the following:
>
>| >PMMail 98's spell checker is horribly slow and queries insensibly, its
>| >editor isn't WYSIWYG, 

in the OS/2 version you can select the editor, you want to use.


>>it can't display quoted lines with a different color,

The editor in OS/2 is Highly customizable and could be set to do this.
In PMMail/2 you select different editors for each account, if you like 


>| >message introductions cannot be changed,

Not sure what you mean here.  just what is a message introduction?


>> reading in folders takes way too
>| >much time,

you mean loading the folders?  I have folders with more than a thousand
messages
in them and they work just fine.  Keep in mind that I'm running on a p166 here 
at work.


>> toolbars are not customizable, 

they aren't in OS/2 either, but that has never been a concern of mine.
so for you that would be a minus I guess.

>>change the quotation prefix and
>| >the thing starts wrapping quoted lines, 

Haven't seen this happen.

>opening HTML-formatted messages
>| >regularly causes crashes, etc. These are all annoying quirks which Agent
>| >solves elegantly.
>| 

works with html messages just fine. I've not seen a problem yet.  However,
I rarely get an html formatted message.  OTOH, if I do it is transparent, so
I've 
not ever noticed a problem with them.

>| You should read my messages more carefully, I was specifically referring to
>| PMMail/2 which I use regularly, I only mentioned the windoze version
>| passing.
>
>Then tell me, can PMMail/2 do the things mentioned above which PMMail 98
>cannot?
>

See above.


>| Plus I was referring specifically to the comments Steven made.  I can spell
>| so what you need/want is different from what I require.  The OS/2 version
>| handles all of what Steven referred to flawlessly.  You bring up completely
>| different items.
>
>You dismissed Agent as being not a "real email client" because it lacks
>certain features that PMMail has. This completely ignores the fact that at
>the same time Agent has many features that PMMail *doesn't* have, features
>which I personally found so desirable that I switched from PMMail to Agent
>to get them. You're not looking at the whole picture here.
>

 geez you need to get more of a grip.  "getting a real email client" was
intended 
to be a jab, a dig at Steven.  You took that to mean way too much.  I am
looking
at the whole picture.  I see dozens of MSFT butt kissers come into advocacy
every day
to rag on OS/2. I've been over to the win advocacy groups at different times
and I never see anybody that is an OS/2 user bashing windows to the extent I
see here.
I find it amusing, that somebody would be so excited about the
use/demise/whatever
of a product they don't even use.  There simply has to be about a dozen Psych
dissertations
ready for the plucking in this newsgroup alone.

to sum up the big picture is a comedy. and you're one of the stars.  Be happy.

chris



>It's like a Ferrari owner complaining about his car's small trunk, after
>which someone says to him: "Hey, why don't you get a *real* car? I can fit
>those suitcases into my Lada easily!"
>

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From: cawort01@spam.netcom.com                          31-Aug-99 15:03:03
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 14:56:02
Subj: Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2

From: cawort01@spam.netcom.com

In <3811fedc.450258291@news-server>, sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste) 
writes:
>On 30 Aug 1999 20:01:25 GMT, cawort01@spam.netcom.com recycled some holes
>into the following pattern:
>
>>
>>You should read my messages more carefully, I was specificallly referring to 

>>PMMail/2 which I use regularly, I only mentioned the windoze version
passing.
>>Plus I was referring specifically to the comments Steven made.  I can spell
so 
>>what you need/want is different from what I require.  The OS/2 version
handles
>>all of what Steven referred to flawlessly.  You bring up completely
different items.
>>The OS/2 version works great.   
>>
>>
>>chris
>
>Are you sure it permits regular expressions in kill filters (which Agent
>permits), or that it can filter based on the contents of an article (as
>opposed to just the header information including the subject line, which
>Agent doesn't permit but I wish it did)?
>
>A "regular expression" is a miniature program for a state machine, said
>language originally defined for the program "grep" back on Unix.
>
>Here's an example of one of my filters:
>
>   subject: =%{[^a-z]+}
>

In my brief examination of the help.  I did not see that "ALL CAPS" was 
something I could search for.  Not to say it can't be done, but it wasn't
obvious.
So at a minimum it can't be done easily. at worst it can't be done at all.  My 

take on it is that it cannot be done currently.


>What this says is that anything which doesn't include at least one lower
>case letter in its "subject" goes into my trashbin. That means that any
>message whose subject line is all capital letters (as so many advertising
>spams are, BECAUSE THEY'RE SO EXCITED!!!!!!!) hits the bit bucket.
>
>Here's another example:
>
>   not any-recipient: sdenbes1@san.rr.com
>

this is doable.  There were lots of cabability in this area.  You could even
program
canned replies.  Including real names, etc.  but I don't need to do that.  but 
clearly
the capability of searching as you do in that example is possible.

I do like the all caps search you use.  but the only problem would be is that 
some times I have friends that have a capslock problem :)




>What this means is that if I receive mail and I'm not explicitly on the
>address list for "To:" or "CC:", then no matter what those fields do say it
>goes into the trashbin. So those "blind CC" messages where the "from" and
>"to" fields are the same, or with "recipient list suppressed", are trashed
>automatically.
>

I think I will look into this.  I've been getting some odd junk email lately.
Fortunately I don't get that much.

>Does PMMail offer this degree of flexibility?
>
>
>
>....or is it just the fact that it runs on OS/2, so it must by definition be
>superior?
>

I would have thought that would have been obvious. :)


Chris


>--------
>Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
>Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste
>
>"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
>              -- Calvin

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From: richard@NOSPAMwebtrek.com                         31-Aug-99 15:09:22
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 14:56:02
Subj: Kelly Robinson's Apology 

From: richard@NOSPAMwebtrek.com (Richard R. Klemmer)

On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 14:56:16, esther@bitranch.com (Esther Schindler) 
wrote:

> reasons to check it out. I don't want them to see people arguing about
> what Brad said three years ago or accusing Kelly of being wrong 
> (*after* he apologized!).
> 

I don't really want to get in on this discussion, but I was wondering 
where Kelly Robinson apologized for his mistake about every operating 
system getting a higher priority with VMWare than OS/2.  The only post
I see is the original one entitled "vmware mistake"

I only ask this because my Cable Modem provider has switched to @home 
and under the old one (Jones Communications) I would be lucky to get 
1/3 of the Newsgroup posts.  I was hoping that the @home News Server 
would be better, but it probably isn't.

I'd like to join in on some of these discussions, but it's impossible 
if I miss most of the posts.  I'd like to attempt to interject some 
civility into c.o.o.announce.

Oh, and just to into the discussion (I know, I said I didn't want to),
I don't care if Kelly Robinson apologized or not, it doesn't do anyone
any good to be rude, mean or harassing.  IMHO. :-)





-----------------------------
Richard R. Klemmer
richard@webtrek.com
http://www.webtrek.com
-----------------------------

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From: dpeterso@halcyon.com                              31-Aug-99 08:04:05
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 14:56:02
Subj: Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2

From: Dennis Peterson <dpeterso@halcyon.com>

I have to admit that regexp is a powerful tool and of course, all unix
text tools include the library, and even some commercial editors
(Multi-edit) include regexp feartures. They probably don't exist in
mailers for the same reason your mention of them went right over the
tops of most heads here. Not enough end users know what they do. Just
guessing, of course. Even so, the libraries are all available and it
would be a simple thing to roll them in... hint hint hint, you email
client authors!

As for being a sad day for OS/2 -- I think not. Clearly not enough users
purchased the programs to support the effort write and maintain them,
and those that hadn't likely never would have. Now that they are free,
they will more likely have additional users and more satisfied OS/2
customers. That was also the case with ColorWorks and DeScribe though
those packages were not let out for free when the end came. They were
greatly reduced in price,though, and I bought both of them and continue
to be pleased with them. I also grabbed a copy of PageMaker/2 at a great
savings. Oh, and Excel/2. All are now out of production, all working
still working great, no talking paperclips. Life is good.

Steven, you just have to stop looking at the cloud and start
appreciating the silver lining!

dp

"Steven C. Den Beste" wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 31 Aug 1999 01:08:09 +0200, Gerben Bergman recycled some holes into
> the following pattern:
> 
> >Lean a little closer to the plant, Steven C. Den Beste, and tell me about
> >"Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2"...
> >
> >| >The OS/2 version works great.
> >|
> >| Are you sure it permits regular expressions in kill filters (which Agent
> >| permits),
> >
> >PMMail has two types of filters: "simple" and "complex". The "complex"
> >option lets you create filters with SouthSoft's own "Internet Communication
> >Search Language" (ICSL), which "uses Boolean (AND, OR, and NOT) connectors
> >and parenthetical groupings to allow extremely powerful filters, completely
> >under your control". So the answer to your question is probably "yes".
> >
> >| or that it can filter based on the contents of an article (as opposed to
> >| just the header information including the subject line, which Agent
doesn't
> >| permit but I wish it did)?
> >
> >Yup; PMMail can filter based on the contents of the header, body, and whole
> >message, on attachment names, as well as on the To:, From:, Cc:, and
> >Subject: fields.
> >
> >| Does PMMail offer this degree of flexibility?
> >|
> >|  ...or is it just the fact that it runs on OS/2, so it must by definition 
be
> >| superior?
> >
> >I think filtering is the wrong area to praise Agent over PMMail, Steven.
> 
> I kind of get the impression that you don't understand the power of regular
> expressions. There's much more to them than "using boolean connectors and
> parenthetical groupings" etc. -- which Agent also permits, as you well know.
> 
> Let's take the specific example I used which the other guy clipped out:
> 
> I automatically killfile any mail message whose subject doesn't contain at
> least one lower case letter. How would you do that in PMMail? Here's how it
> is done in Agent:
> 
>     subject: =%{[^a-z]+}
> 
> Dissected, here's what it means:
> 
> =    match entire expression
> %    expression is case sensitive
> {}   concatanate all items contained herein
> []   a complex expression describing a single character
> ^    invert what follows
> a-z  match any lower case letter
> +    as suffix, means "one or more of"
> 
> So the entire thing means "Checking case sensitively the entire subject
> field, find a string consisting exclusively of characters which do not
> include any lower case alphabetic characters".
> 
> A regular expression is actually a computer program for a small state
> machine.
> 
> --------
> Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
> Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste
> 
> "We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
>               -- Calvin

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From: richard@NOSPAMwebtrek.com                         31-Aug-99 15:15:10
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 14:56:02
Subj: Re: Kelly Robinson's Apology 

From: richard@NOSPAMwebtrek.com (Richard R. Klemmer)

On Tue, 31 Aug 1999 15:09:44, richard@NOSPAMwebtrek.com (Richard R. 
Klemmer) wrote:

> I don't really want to get in on this discussion, but I was wondering 
> where Kelly Robinson apologized for his mistake about every operating 

Nevermind.  I think I see where my confusion came from. 

> I only ask this because my Cable Modem provider has switched to @home 
> and under the old one (Jones Communications) I would be lucky to get 
> 1/3 of the Newsgroup posts.  I was hoping that the @home News Server 
> would be better, but it probably isn't.

I still think I'm not getting all the posts.  I'll have to keep an eye
on things.

-----------------------------
Richard R. Klemmer
richard@webtrek.com
http://www.webtrek.com
-----------------------------

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From: dpeterso@halcyon.com                              31-Aug-99 08:10:28
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 14:56:02
Subj: Re: Sun to proliferate Star Office...

From: Dennis Peterson <dpeterso@halcyon.com>

Yep -- this is very cool. I'm  going to push hard to make this standard
issue on our Unix workstations at the flying aluminum factory I work
for. Now I can return my now useless laptop (needed only to print
proprietary attachments in email - oh, and it was running VNC so I never
actually had to look at it to use it) and stick with my Palm III and Sun
boxes. Oh *BABY* life is good.

Does make one wonder why MS couldn't do such things. One humorous quote
I read in one editorial was MS's belief that the applications needed a
proper OS to run on to take full advantage of them so Linux is off the
things for them to build for list. Laughed, damn, I nearly died.

dp

Jerry McBride wrote:
> 
> Wow, have a look at this:
> 
> ---
> 
>  "Both StarPortal and the conventional versions of the
>   software will be given away for free to all comers, not just
>   the educational and home users that used to be able to get
>   Star Office without paying. That price tag stands in stark
>   contrast to Microsoft Office, which costs about $400 for a
>   basic version and much more for premium versions."
> 
> Full story:
>   http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,41111,00.html?owv
> 
> ---
> 
> MicroSoft just got some serious competition in the offic suite area. Tough
> decision... spend $400.00 or get one for free. Plus the Java version...
> 
> --
> 
>
*******************************************************************************

> *            Sometimes, the BEST things in life really ARE free...           
 *
> *       Get a FREE copy of NetRexx 1.150 for your next java project at:      
 *
> *                     http://www2.hursley.ibm.com/netrexx                    
 *
> *                                                                            
 *
> *                    Have you rebooted your NT box today?                    
 *
>
*******************************************************************************

> 
> /----------------------------------------\
> | From the desktop of: Jerome D. McBride |
> |         mcbrides@erols.com             |
> \----------------------------------------/
> 
> --

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From: richard@NOSPAMwebtrek.com                         31-Aug-99 15:25:20
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 14:56:02
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: richard@NOSPAMwebtrek.com (Richard R. Klemmer)

On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 23:29:16, esther@bitranch.com (Esther Schindler) 
wrote:

> Products have intelligence? You mean, someone perfected artificial 
> intelligence and *didn't tell me*?!

Absolutely.  I use that every time I fool my Boss into believing I 
actually know what I'm talking about.  :-)

-----------------------------
Richard R. Klemmer
richard@webtrek.com
http://www.webtrek.com
-----------------------------

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From: ericb@pobox.com                                   31-Aug-99 11:32:02
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 14:56:02
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)

In article <M3mPvLdzxX1t-pn2-BrE9Bi7YP12j@localhost>, rjf@yyycomasia.com
(rj friedman) wrote:

> On Sun, 29 Aug 1999 20:42:41, ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
> wrote:
> 
> Æ> If you were a logical person, the only valid conclusion that
> Æ> you could come to is that - for motives unbeknownst to you -
> Æ> the people at the meeting wanted _you_ to think that _they_ 
> Æ> felt that their neighbor, Bob, is a complete jerk.
> Æ> 
> Æ> For all you know, they might not even think Bob is a jerk, 
> Æ> at all.
> 
> ÆConsider the probabilities of the various possible motivations of the
> Æneighbors... I think the most likely explanation is that they do in fact
> Æbelieve Bob is a jerk.
> 
> Of course you can think that the most likely explanation is 
> that they do, in fact, believe that Bob is a jerk, but you 
> could not logically conlcude it from the information 
> supplied. The most you could logically conclude is that one 
> possibility is that they do, in fact, believe that Bob is a 
> jerk. You couldn't even logically conclude it is `probable'.
> You simply don't have enough information about what may be 
> motivating the neighbors.

But it is logical to extend what you know about people in general to the
current specific situation.  When you rent a car, do you read the manual
first to make sure the accelerator is the pedal on the right, or do you
assume--logically from past experience--that the probability of the
accelerator being on the right is so high that you'd be wasting your time
to check?

> In addition - even if it turned out that the neighbors 
> really did feel that Bob was a jerk, you could not logically
> conclude that Bob is, in fact, a jerk. Again, because you 
> don't know enough about the circumstances that led them to 
> that conclusion. If a disinterested third party (or parties)
> were to view the circumstances, they might possibly conclude
> that Bob was in the right (and therefore not a jerk), and 
> the neighbors were wrong (and were therefore incorrect in 
> their conclusion that Bob was a jerk).
> 
> Also, I don't know what your neighbors are like - but no way
> in the world am I going to base my opinion on *anything* 
> solely on the basis of what some of the characters who live 
> around me have to say about it. Yet, that is what Brad would
> have us believe is what he does - and is a logically 
> acceptable method for judging whether any given individual 
> is a jerk or not.

I suppose that would depend on what percentage of the population you trust
to make such judgements, since that affects the probability that Bob will
unfairly be judged a "jerk" by a very large fraction of his neighbors.

> And let us not forget that in the case of the neighbors we 
> aren't dealing with a known quantity like we are with Glatt 
> and Sutherland. I have a great deal of information about 
> their motivations from their behavior here in cooa, in 
> general, and their interactions with Dave, in particular.

That is true, but the larger the group the less likely that the whole
group simply has an unjustified random grudge against Bob IMO.


> But, back to the point:
> All of which means that you may entertain the *possibility* 
> that any particular conclusion is valid. And, true, some 
> possiblities may _appear_ to be more probable than others; 
> but there isn't enough information given in the example to 
> do more than list a number of possibilities - you can't even
> logically form a `probably'. 

I think you can logically argue that some have a higher probability.

-- 
Eric Bennett ( http://www.pobox.com/~ericb/ ) 
Cornell University / Chemistry & Chemical Biology

If you surveyed a hundred typical middle-aged Americans, I bet you'd
find that only two of them could tell you their blood type, but every
last one of them would know the theme song from The Beverly
Hillbillies.  -Dave Barry

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               31-Aug-99 08:58:26
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 14:56:02
Subj: Re: Java continues to splinter

From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste)

On Tue, 31 Aug 1999 00:00:26 -0400, Joseph recycled some holes into the
following pattern:

>>
>> I'll leave it as an exercise for the student whether Joseph or myself was
>> more accurate in our appraisal of the situation.
>
>: )
>Sure Steven  Hey what is IA64?
>And if Compaq is dumping ALPHA then why haven't they dumped UNIX, LINUX and
VMS?

One of the most important phrases in the English language is "I was wrong".
Someday, perhaps, we'll actually see you type it in a message here in this
group. Practice it, because the path to wisdom begins with the ability to
admit your errors.

[IA64 is the 64-bit chip being developed by Intel to replace the IA32,
better known as the "Pentium". IA64 will include the ability to execute IA32
code.]

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
              -- Calvin

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From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               31-Aug-99 09:00:10
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 14:56:02
Subj: Re: Warp4-and-HPFS386

From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste)

On 31 Aug 1999 04:19:49 GMT, Rogprov recycled some holes into the following
pattern:

>In article <37CA875A.E77916E3@ruhr-uni-bochum.de>, Christian Hennecke
><christian.hennecke@ruhr-uni-bochum.de> writes:
>
>>Maybe 90% is a bit much. However, I was talking about homeusers and from
>>what I KNOW most of them haven't paid for their copy of MS Office, Adobe
>>Photoshop and the like. That's a plain fact!
>>
>>
>
>I agree, the vast majority of MS homeusers I know run unpaid for applications 
-
>including the operating system be it Win95 or Win98.  Most seem under the
>impression that all the need to pay for is the hardware!
>
>Roger Provins

What I objected to was not the characterisation that lots of Windows users
run at least a few unpaid application; I objected to the characterisation
that lots (he claimed 90%) of Windows users run unpaid applications
*exclusively*.

That's a much different thing.

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
              -- Calvin

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From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               31-Aug-99 10:10:11
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 16:34:24
Subj: Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2

From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste)

On Tue, 31 Aug 1999 13:25:32 +0200, Illya Vaes recycled some holes into the
following pattern:

>"Steven C. Den Beste" wrote:
>>On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 23:35:26 GMT, Darin McBride
>>>On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 00:53:36 -0700, Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
>>>>On Sun, 29 Aug 1999 23:44:44 -0400, Brad Barclay
>>>>>No, developing OS/2 software and making a living is not mutually
>>>>>exclusive.
>>>>Of course not. You develop OS/2 software in your spare time, and make a
>>>>living developing WIN32 software for pay. But no company seems to be able
>>>>to make a living by developing shrink-wrap OS/2 software for retail sale.
>>>1. What do you think Brad does for a living????  Here's a hint: it's not
>>>Win32.  (Then again, I don't do Windows either.)
>>If you think that OS/2 software is the predominant source of income for
>>IBM, think again. I phrased my statement carefully: I said "company", not
>>"employee".
>
>No, you said (to Brad) "You develop OS/2 software in your spare time, and
make
>a living developing WIN32 software for pay" (and _then_ turned to companies).
>You = Brad, who makes a living developing OS/2 software.
>If you're trying to lie your way out, you should at least not be dumb enough
>to even let the quote that proves you wrong stay in sight.

Unfortunately, we've run into an ambiguity in the English language use of
"you". It can mean "you specifically" referring precisely to the person to
whom one is speaking, or "you collectively" referring to a group to which
that person belongs, or it can mean the same as using the word "one" used as
a pronoun meaning "some person". I was intending the last meaning, and not
either of the former ones. I'm well aware of the fact that Brad works for
IBM and develops software intended to run on the OS/2 platform.

Rephrased, my statement would not have changed meaning if it had been:

"One develops OS/2 software in one's spare time, and makes a living
developing WIN32 software for pay." (In any case, it was intended as a joke.
I keep being too subtle. I should remember that "subtle" is not part of the
charter of this group.)

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
              -- Calvin

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From: rerbert@wxs.nl                                    31-Aug-99 19:47:14
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 16:34:24
Subj: Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2

From: rerbert@wxs.nl (Gerben Bergman)

Is it just me, or did I hear cawort01@spam.netcom.com say "Re: Innoval
Quits: sad day for OS/2"?

| >PMMail 98's spell checker is horribly slow and queries insensibly, its
| >editor isn't WYSIWYG,
| 
| in the OS/2 version you can select the editor you want to use.

Right, I forgot. That's a nifty feature indeed. (The Windows version can do
this too.)

| >it can't display quoted lines with a different color,
| 
| The editor in OS/2 is highly customizable and could be set to do this.

That must be new in PMMail/2 2.0 then, as it wasn't possible in 1.96 (the
last version I used under OS/2).

| >message introductions cannot be changed,
| 
| Not sure what you mean here.  just what is a message introduction?

The introductory line positioned at the head of a reply. In PMMail it always
looks like this:

"On Sun, 29 Aug 1999 12:27:07 -0500, John Smith wrote:"

In Agent it can be changed to anything you like, extracting data from the
various header fields (Date, From, To, Subject, Organization, X-Mailer,
etc.) and inserting it into a phrase you composed.

| >reading in folders takes way too much time,
| 
| you mean loading the folders?  I have folders with more than a thousand
| messages in them and they work just fine.  Keep in mind that I'm running on
| a p166 here at work.

Hmmm, apparently that's specific to the Windows version; on my P120 opening
folders with over 400 messages literally took seconds. Worse still, the
program reads the entire folder anew once you switch back to it later on,
forcing you to sit through the entire tedious process again (Agent reads the
first several messages and keeps them cached).

| >toolbars are not customizable,
| 
| they aren't in OS/2 either, but that has never been a concern of mine. so
| for you that would be a minus I guess.

It's a pain to set up the 6 (!) Agent toolbars completely to your liking,
but once you've done it, it makes using the program a lot more comfortable.
Definitely a major plus in my book.

| >opening HTML-formatted messages regularly causes crashes, etc.
| 
| works with html messages just fine. I've not seen a problem yet.  However, I
| rarely get an html formatted message.  OTOH, if I do it is transparent, so
| I've not ever noticed a problem with them.

Can PMMail/2 read and compose HTML mail these days? Or is it limited to just
reading?

| >You dismissed Agent as being not a "real email client" because it lacks
| >certain features that PMMail has. This completely ignores the fact that at
| >the same time Agent has many features that PMMail *doesn't* have, features
| >which I personally found so desirable that I switched from PMMail to Agent
| >to get them. You're not looking at the whole picture here.
| 
| geez you need to get more of a grip.  "getting a real email client" was
| intended to be a jab, a dig at Steven.  You took that to mean way too much.

Okay.

| I am looking at the whole picture.  I see dozens of MSFT butt kissers come
| into advocacy every day to rag on OS/2. I've been over to the win advocacy
| groups at different times and I never see anybody that is an OS/2 user
| bashing windows to the extent I see here.

I take it you consider me one of the "MSFT butt-kissers" who's here to "bash
OS/2". You guys never fail to deliver, do you?

The only thing I've been (moderately) "bashing" lately has been this group's
resident Eliza clone Dave Tholen, and only if you feel he's this righteous
"guardian of truth and battler of FUD" could you have come to the conclusion
that I'm here to somehow harm OS/2. Sheesh.

| to sum up the big picture is a comedy. and you're one of the stars.  Be
| happy.

Well, I'm glad to be providing you with some much-needed comic relief. :)

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: lestrade@Ra.MsState.Edu                           31-Aug-99 18:18:05
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 16:34:24
Subj: Here's a lob, smack the hell out of it...

From: lestrade@Ra.MsState.Edu (John Patrick Lestrade)

I would prefer to have rational responses to this post, but knowing the number 
of
trolls (pro and con os2/windows) I am ready to hit the delete button....

I used os/2 for many years and was very very happy with its stability.  I made 
the
switch to win95 (then win98 then win98se) because I was not able to run (under
os/2) all of the
programs that I needed that were written specifically for win98. (and besides, 
I
was a beta tester for Jandel (now part of SPSS) and it was not completely
honest to
beta test their programs under os/2 -- even the ones that would run. (I always
suspected that they specifically wrote their progs to NOT run under os/2....)

I did not like the dual boot method. It's like being married to two women.
You're with one and it is the other one who knows where to scratch your back.
:)

Anyway, I have not experienced the stability under windows that I had with
os/2.
On the positive side, I was *really* tired of the whining of the editors in
the
os/2 mags to which I subscribed "Hey! we have Wordperfect/os2 now! Yea us!"
They were like poor actors trying to be cheerleaders.

I look on an OS as I do a pais of shoes. I need them to get a job done. If
Nike is
better than Adidas, I will switch to NIke. I will not stick with Adidas and
taunt
the nike wearers. :)

SO, my question, to the cognocenti out there. What is currently the "best"
solution
for a stable compatible operating system (this is the lob mentioned in the
header.)?

Will there be an update to OS/2 that is MORE compatible with windows? Is that
puppy
dead and buried?

Is linux going to supplant os/2 as the windows beater? What;s a user to do?

regards,
Patrick
-- 
--
John Patrick Lestrade         | 
Lestrade@batse.msfc.nasa.gov  | 
Lestrade@alumni.rice.edu      |

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: weismer@erols.com                                 31-Aug-99 15:08:03
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 16:34:25
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: Murray Weismer <weismer@erols.com>

Nicely said. And I loved the BeeGees part. (G)






Buddy Donnelly wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 15:08:43, esther@bitranch.com (Esther Schindler) a
> ’crit dans un message:
> 
> snippercized
> >
> > I still think it's a class act. It makes the product available to
> > those who want to use it.
> 
> Oh, I'll stop a moment and quibble on that point, thanks. (Hot out, ain't
> it?)
> 
> Well, it would have been classier ..........






-- 
___________________________________________________________
Home of DreckBak OS/2 Disk Backup Utility Suite
http://weismer.virtualave.net/DreckBak.html
_____PLEASE DO BACKUP YOUR DISKS_________________________
IBM BESTTeam - Team OS/2	
RPS.BBS  Phila. Pa (215)624-8960 Adult, Bible, and OS2 related
Hot_Asian_Food: http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Towers/9001
Fix your Plumbing: http://reedps.virtualave.net
MEMBER of P.A.C.S. OS/2-JAVA S.I.G.: http://www.phillyos2.org
------------------------------------------------------------

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From: djohnson@isomedia.com                             31-Aug-99 12:08:12
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 16:34:25
Subj: Shrink-wrapped Software is Dead

From: "David T. Johnson" <djohnson@isomedia.com>

I was in a CompUSA store a few days ago and I was struck by the lack of
software variety and selection.  Shrink-wrapped software sold at retail
outlets seems to be dying.  Five years ago, in my community, there were
several major outlets for new, shrink-wrapped software, within a
15-minute drive.  Now, with the takeover of Computer City by CompUSA,
there is one.  Oh, and Office Depot and Office Max also sell a small
selection of software.  That's it.  

As for CompUSA, after you take out games, Office2000, Quicken, and
Windows fix-it programs, there is not much else to buy.  There is far
more interesting stuff at a local bookstore that sells used software. 
Comparing the cornucopia of interesting used software with the small
selection of dull stuff available new only underlines how far the
shrink-wrapped software business has fallen.  

Innovation in "shrink-wrapped" software seems to be on life support and
the few existing retail outlets do not seem to give any shelf space to
software that is not from a few large companies.  And I have no figures
to back this up but my impression is that most of the sales at retail
outlets are from hardware, not software.  Shrink-wrapped software seems
to be dominated by a handful of these large companies that keep the
upgrade treadmill going to maintain their revenue stream but which are
not really offering anything new.  Their activities make them look like
that mythical 19th-century patent examiner who claimed that there was
nothing left to invent.   

Based on present trends, it looks like future innovative software will
be downloaded, not shrink-wrapped, and come from relatively small
companies.  OS/2 shrink-wrapped software has been largely gone from
retail channels for several years but what is really remarkable is that
it looks like Windows shrink-wrapped software is following it out of the
door.  Perhaps the day of the multi-thousand-employee software company
has passed.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: weismer@erols.com                                 31-Aug-99 15:11:02
  To: esther@bitranch.com                               31-Aug-99 16:34:25
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

To: Esther Schindler <esther@bitranch.com>
From: Murray Weismer <weismer@erols.com>

As OS2 users, I guess we should be gracious to all who will throw us a
bone????



Esther Schindler wrote:
> Don't look gift horses in the mouth. They could have said, "Screw you,
> we're cancelling all product support." Instead, they gave the OS/2
> community a gift.
> 
> --Esther

-- 
___________________________________________________________
Home of DreckBak OS/2 Disk Backup Utility Suite
http://weismer.virtualave.net/DreckBak.html
_____PLEASE DO BACKUP YOUR DISKS_________________________
IBM BESTTeam - Team OS/2	
RPS.BBS  Phila. Pa (215)624-8960 Adult, Bible, and OS2 related
Hot_Asian_Food: http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Towers/9001
Fix your Plumbing: http://reedps.virtualave.net
MEMBER of P.A.C.S. OS/2-JAVA S.I.G.: http://www.phillyos2.org
------------------------------------------------------------

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From: djohnson@isomedia.com                             31-Aug-99 12:31:29
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 20:08:12
Subj: Re: Here's a lob, smack the hell out of it...

From: "David T. Johnson" <djohnson@isomedia.com>

John Patrick Lestrade wrote:
> 
> 
[snip]
> SO, my question, to the cognocenti out there. What is currently the "best"
solution
> for a stable compatible operating system (this is the lob mentioned in the
> header.)?

Hands down OS/2 v4.

> 
> Will there be an update to OS/2 that is MORE compatible with windows? Is
that puppy
> dead and buried?

No, OS/2 will likely never run Win32 software.  Note, however, that this
is a feature, not a disadvantage.

> 
> Is linux going to supplant os/2 as the windows beater? What;s a user to do?

Linux has a lot of momentum but it's not as sexy as OS/2 IMHO.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: say@sfu.ca                                        31-Aug-99 19:46:14
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 20:08:13
Subj: Re: Sun to proliferate Star Office...

From: Daniel Say <say@sfu.ca>

Dennis Peterson <dpeterso@halcyon.com> wrote:
:>  "Both StarPortal and the conventional versions of the
:>   software will be given away for free to all comers, not just
:>   the educational and home users that used to be able to get
:>   Star Office without paying. That price tag stands in stark
:>   contrast to Microsoft Office, which costs about $400 for a
:>   basic version and much more for premium versions."
:> 
:> Full story:
:>   http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,41111,00.html?owv

--------
	and various other items.
	See the LATimes for a more negative view of 
	StarOffice and its adhreents.

	For us$10 you seem to be able to get a CD with
	various platform versions on it (master language
	either English or German, others to follow) with
	Win98, WinNT, OS/2, Linux, Solaris other Unices
	on the same disk.
	http://sun.com/dot-com/staroffice.html for the offer
	(need java based stuff, darn)
	or plain http://sun.com and start from the first 
	page.


	Since the suite is about 75 Mbytes zipped, that
	seems reasonable.  

	Documentation is promised much later.

	No double-byte.  I wonder if they have the 
	same terrible registration system required after
	a month?  At least all platforms on one disk, that's
	very nice.

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From: dpeterso@halcyon.com                              31-Aug-99 12:56:00
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 20:08:13
Subj: Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2

From: Dennis Peterson <dpeterso@halcyon.com>


"Steven C. Den Beste" wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 31 Aug 1999 01:08:09 +0200, Gerben Bergman recycled some holes into
> the following pattern:
> 
> >Lean a little closer to the plant, Steven C. Den Beste, and tell me about
> >"Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2"...
> >
> >| >The OS/2 version works great.
> >|
> >| Are you sure it permits regular expressions in kill filters (which Agent
> >| permits),


I forgot to mention that my workaround for this issue is procmail which
is an extremely powerful mail preprocessor which works great with
Netscape's mailer -- in Unix.

> --------
> Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
> Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

dp

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From: tzs@halcyon.com                                   31-Aug-99 11:58:12
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 20:08:13
Subj: Re: Sun to proliferate Star Office...

From: tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith)

Jerry McBride <mcbrides@erols.com> wrote:
>  Star Office without paying. That price tag stands in stark
>  contrast to Microsoft Office, which costs about $400 for a
>  basic version and much more for premium versions."
...
>MicroSoft just got some serious competition in the offic suite area. Tough
>decision... spend $400.00 or get one for free. Plus the Java version...

Not really.  (1) The most important component of Office, Word, is available
retail for under $100.

(2) Star Office is way too buggy and is much less functional than Office.
The people who just got some serious competition are Applix, and, perhaps,
Corel.

--Tim Smith

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From: cawort01@spam.netcom.com                          31-Aug-99 20:09:08
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 20:08:13
Subj: Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2

From: cawort01@spam.netcom.com

In <37cc053c.13803658@news.wxs.nl>, rerbert@wxs.nl (Gerben Bergman) writes:
>Is it just me, or did I hear cawort01@spam.netcom.com say "Re: Innoval
>Quits: sad day for OS/2"?
>
>| >PMMail 98's spell checker is horribly slow and queries insensibly, its
>| >editor isn't WYSIWYG,
>| 
>| in the OS/2 version you can select the editor you want to use.
>
>Right, I forgot. That's a nifty feature indeed. (The Windows version can do
>this too.)
>
>| >it can't display quoted lines with a different color,
>| 
>| The editor in OS/2 is highly customizable and could be set to do this.
>
>That must be new in PMMail/2 2.0 then, as it wasn't possible in 1.96 (the
>last version I used under OS/2).
>

Well I know that in the EPM editor it keys off text for writing code.
I suspect it would be a simple matter to have it key off what ever characters
note quotes.  I'm not positive on this.  But I do recall people talking about
making EPM display differently.


>| >message introductions cannot be changed,
>| 
>| Not sure what you mean here.  just what is a message introduction?
>
>The introductory line positioned at the head of a reply. In PMMail it always
>looks like this:
>
>"On Sun, 29 Aug 1999 12:27:07 -0500, John Smith wrote:"
>

I did not see that option any where.  but I didn't look closely.  
but it should be obvious if it can be changed.  


>In Agent it can be changed to anything you like, extracting data from the
>various header fields (Date, From, To, Subject, Organization, X-Mailer,
>etc.) and inserting it into a phrase you composed.
>

Well that can be done with filters.  So perhaps it can be done afterall.


>| >reading in folders takes way too much time,
>| 
>| you mean loading the folders?  I have folders with more than a thousand
>| messages in them and they work just fine.  Keep in mind that I'm running on
>| a p166 here at work.
>
>Hmmm, apparently that's specific to the Windows version; on my P120 opening
>folders with over 400 messages literally took seconds. Worse still, the
>program reads the entire folder anew once you switch back to it later on,
>forcing you to sit through the entire tedious process again (Agent reads the
>first several messages and keeps them cached).
>

a windows feature no doubt :)


>| >toolbars are not customizable,
>| 
>| they aren't in OS/2 either, but that has never been a concern of mine. so
>| for you that would be a minus I guess.
>
>It's a pain to set up the 6 (!) Agent toolbars completely to your liking,
>but once you've done it, it makes using the program a lot more comfortable.
>Definitely a major plus in my book.
>

Hmm in PMMail, all options I ever work with are easily accessible. by the tool 
bar.

>| >opening HTML-formatted messages regularly causes crashes, etc.
>| 
>| works with html messages just fine. I've not seen a problem yet.  However,
I
>| rarely get an html formatted message.  OTOH, if I do it is transparent, so
>| I've not ever noticed a problem with them.
>
>Can PMMail/2 read and compose HTML mail these days? Or is it limited to just
>reading?
>

compose in HTML?  what kind of feature is that?  The need for this is NOT
obvious to me.
<H1> Anybody can compose in HTML </H1>



>| >You dismissed Agent as being not a "real email client" because it lacks
>| >certain features that PMMail has. This completely ignores the fact that at
>| >the same time Agent has many features that PMMail *doesn't* have, features
>| >which I personally found so desirable that I switched from PMMail to Agent
>| >to get them. You're not looking at the whole picture here.
>| 
>| geez you need to get more of a grip.  "getting a real email client" was
>| intended to be a jab, a dig at Steven.  You took that to mean way too much.
>
>Okay.
>
>| I am looking at the whole picture.  I see dozens of MSFT butt kissers come
>| into advocacy every day to rag on OS/2. I've been over to the win advocacy
>| groups at different times and I never see anybody that is an OS/2 user
>| bashing windows to the extent I see here.
>
>I take it you consider me one of the "MSFT butt-kissers" who's here to "bash
>OS/2". You guys never fail to deliver, do you?
>

Not you specifically.  Don't worry :)



>The only thing I've been (moderately) "bashing" lately has been this group's
>resident Eliza clone Dave Tholen, and only if you feel he's this righteous
>"guardian of truth and battler of FUD" could you have come to the conclusion
>that I'm here to somehow harm OS/2. Sheesh.
>

Dave is in his own world. :)


>| to sum up the big picture is a comedy. and you're one of the stars.  Be
>| happy.
>
>Well, I'm glad to be providing you with some much-needed comic relief. :)
>

I certainly appreciate your efforts :)


You took that as I intended and we both got a chuckle :)

Please enlighten me on composing in HTML.




chris



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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: cawort01@spam.netcom.com                          31-Aug-99 20:27:06
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 20:08:13
Subj: Re: MSWolf in sheep's clothing and nothing more.

From: cawort01@spam.netcom.com

In <37CB126A.CD694C8F@WarpCity.com>, Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com> writes:
>cawort01@spam.netcom.com wrote:
>
>> Hey Steven,
>>
>> you just asked the question of the month.
>>
>> Care to answer tim?
>>
>> I thought not.
>

somehow your tirade doesn't surprise me.  You've never once answered 
any question I've put to you in the past.  Plus you insult my thought
processes
which I dare say are advanced way beyond your ability to comprehend them.

I don't seem to recall Brad et al. making any noise in this newsgroup about
Warp2000.  I believe that was YOU who brought it up, who babbled about it
ceaselessly.

this still doesn't explain why you aren't hounding INNOVAL to the ends of the
earth.
for bailing out of OS/2 development.  At least Stardock is still making OS/2
related
products.  Even 1 is more than none.  Unless that is too large a number for
you to
grasp.  I'll be anxiously awaiting your anti Dan Porter/Innoval tirades in the 
days and 
weeks to come.  You bumbler.  You just dislike Brad for whatever reason. 
Perhaps
he didn't sign up as an early adopter of WarpCity?  Or maybe he didn't beg for 
a 
free account to a nonexistent site?  I don't believe it does exist simply
based on your
past comments regarding profitability, providing the service you say you do. 
One minute
there are no more openings, yet later you give out many new free subscriptions
which clearly would aggravate paying customers no end.  therefore you have no
customers.  You are simply digital hot air.  Go ahead write more bumbler.  I
need
a good laugh.


chris



>As usual, you think like an idiot.  Are YOU using Stardock's
>Warp 5 product today?  The very same product Stardock
>took to these newsgroups back in November 1998 and claimed
>they would be exclusively providing to the OS/2 community?
>
>I thought not.  Please, someone enlighten us all.  Give us
>a release date for Stardock's vaporware Warp2000  (Warp 5)
>product.   If not,  please explain why we were all subjected
>to more than 9 months of Stardock "We're the Number One
>OS/2 Software Developer so buy our faded OS/2 products
>because we're not making any more for you" vaporware hype.
>
>There will be no Stardock Warp2000 (Warp5) product despite
>the never-ending spam provided by Wardell & Co.  Look
>closely and you'll find that Stardock employees won't use
>their own OS/2 products.  But they'll gladly take your OS/2
>money to help develop more Microsoft-only software.
>
>MSWolf In sheep's clothing and nothing more.
>
>Tim Martin
>The OS/2 Guy
>Warp City
>http://warpcity.com
>"E-ride the wild surf to Warp City!"
>
>
>

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From: madings@baladi.nmrfam.wisc.edu                    31-Aug-99 20:42:05
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 21:19:21
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: Steve Mading <madings@baladi.nmrfam.wisc.edu>

In comp.os.linux.advocacy nn <nn@nn.nn> wrote:
: I wouldn't consider any part of that statement to be trolling - dumb ass.
: Everyone knows you can get a PC with Linux installed and have been able to
: for about the same length of time that it took Windows to get a 95% or
: greater market share. The future of Linux as a home users OS (if it hasn't
: already peaked) is dismall , no trolling about it, it's fact. be happy that
: it is even as popular as it is now.

Can we save this and throw it in your face in a few years?
You will be proven wrong.  Linux is starting to be used in
embedded things enough where it will, I think, start getting
used by people who don't even know they are using it.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: cawort01@spam.netcom.com                          31-Aug-99 20:56:29
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 21:19:21
Subj: Re: MSWolf in sheep's clothing and nothing more.

From: cawort01@spam.netcom.com

In <37CB7291.581E2203@WarpCity.com>, Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com> writes:
>Kris Kwilas wrote:
>
>> But, that doesn't matter to you, does it? No doubt you'll be leading
>> a Charge Of One against anything SDS/OS/2 related in the future. :-)
>>
>
>Stardock is rarely, if ever, mentioned at Warp City.  There
>is simply no reason to do so.  Stardock is a Windows software
>developer seeking money out of OS/2 users to fund development
>of software for Microsoft operating systems.  Why you people
>persist with this "we support OS/2" facade is silly.  Your claim
>that your windows software sales support your OS/2 software
>is stupid.  OS/2 users don't buy your OS/2 software because
>it is just too old.  Stardock's reputation is often equated to SPGs.
>The only difference is SPG is gone but Stardock is still here,
>still trying to con the OS/2 user, still spamming the newsgroups,
>still playing that vaporware carrot game.
>
>You claim there is no OS/2 market.  Put up or shut up.  Release
>your faded OS/2 software.  Show some class and style.  We all
>know you have no intention of ever supporting OS/2 again.
>Open your site to free OS/2 downloads and walk away.


You bumbler, that's what INNOVAL just did.  why don't you crucify them?

as to being a MSWOLF in sheeps clothing.  that is totally absurd.  A wolf
is a dangerous animal.  In tim's case he's more like a fly trapped between 
the screen wire and the window, you hear him buzzing.  He's annoying.
But by any stretch of the imagination, he'll never be a threat.


LOL, chris




>Release the source code to those OS/2 programmers who really
>love OS/2 and can actually offer the OS/2 community something
>worthwhile instead of never-ending spam and vaporware ads.
>
>Tim Martin
>The OS/2 Guy
>Warp City
>http://warpcity.com
>"E-ride the wild surf to Warp City!"
>
>
>
>
>
>

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: no.spam@heyrick.co.uk                             31-Aug-99 18:40:15
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 21:19:21
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: Richard Murray <no.spam@heyrick.co.uk>

In article <37C80E1F.8D789066@nls.net>, "David D. Huff Jr." <huffd@nls.net>
wrote:

> M$ had a team of people in the early to mid-nineties posting trash
> on everybody but them, true or not they posted away.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

So M$ dish dirt. Then we dish dirt. And before you know it, it'll be going
out live and hosted by Jerry Springer. Erm, yeah. Thanks but no thanks.


> Too few people these days are capable of thinking for themselves.

Damn right.


> I especially like sites that use that active x thing to close WinBlows
> browsers.

<shudders>

Firstly, I quite *LIKE* MSIE5 (which was a great shock to me two weekends
ago, I can tell you) and to have some luser fsck with my setup over a
political point isn't going to get my approval. Like irfon said, a positive
approach is a better way to go.

Besides, I view ActiveX as a security cock-up of mass proportions. So they
are configured as disabled. Not prompt, disabled. Totally.


>> A new collection of "Anti-Microsoft" Web banners is available at

Have you read the Halloween documents yet? That says more than a bunch of
banners ever could. Try thinking of the possible implications of some of the
comments made... Storage+, comoditised protocols, all in the power of one
company and one man. Philippe Duchenne is Belgian, yes? Does he know that
Bill Gates has enough money to pay off Belgium's entire national debt?!?


Anyway, to describe something as "Good because it isn't MicroSoft" is worse
than useless. Everything had merits (yeah, even Windows), the way to spin it
is to promote your product and make the competition look bad without
actually inferring anything or directly stating "<product> is <condition>".


>> Those are based on a "Microsoft FREE" seal (16 colors, Netscape palette
>> used)

One way you could use to be overcritical of Windows is the wealth of the
company.
Compare, for example, RISC OS (I'm posting from comp.sys.acorn.advocacy) and
Windows.

RISC OS has scrollbars that change size and fairly accurately reflect not
only the scroll position, but the amount on-screen relative to the total
amount. This message, currently, has a scrollbar half the size of the scroll
slider space, because half of it is visible.

Win95's font smoothing works. But it is evil. To get MSIE to display a
smoothed font, I need to choose "Larger" or "Largest" as font size. So it
all looks like one of those cute little Ladybird books. If I choose a size
like "smaller", so I can see a decent amount on-screen at any one time, it
reverts to ugly Truetype line display.
Additionally, the smoothing either blurs the text, or makes it look bold. Or
both.

I think we can flame MicroSoft to hell and back for those omissions. Because
Acorn created something good and usable on a budget that is probably
laughably small in computer-company circles. And it wasn't put together by a
team of coders several hundred strong.

MicroSoft has accumulated more money than some countries have, and they
still release buggy piles of crap; with MSIE 5 a notable exception; there is
NO excuse.


As for MSIE5; my own PC is quite stable. Win95 only crashes these days with
the video grabber stiffs - and you can't blame 'doze for that. MSIE5 was
nice, integrated, responsive. All this on a P75 upclocked to 100MHz. It did
the web stuff, and stayed online for two hours without bombing out.
Impressive. Now if only the base OS was that good. :-)



-- 
   ___         Happy, R.I.P.
  /__/         
 /  \ichard.   http://www.heyrick.co.uk/

Uploaded to news.argonet.co.uk at 22:06 on 31/08/1999

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From: esther@bitranch.com                               31-Aug-99 21:53:02
  To: All                                               31-Aug-99 21:19:21
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: esther@bitranch.com (Esther Schindler)

On Tue, 31 Aug 1999 19:11:04, Murray Weismer <weismer@erols.com> 
wrote:
| As OS2 users, I guess we should be gracious to all who will throw us a
| bone????

As human beings, I think we should do our best to be gracious to 
everybody.

Murray, perhaps you've been lucky enough to succeed at everything you 
tried. Perhaps, if you failed at your goals, it was only your own life
that was affected. Some of us aren't this lucky.

At one time, my husband and I owned a computer store and consulting 
business, on an island off the coast of Maine. After several years, we
made the (ultimately wise) decision to pack up and move to Arizona. It
was a good decision for us, but we knew that our leaving town would 
affect the hundreds of customers to whom we'd sold hardware, software,
and services. While many of them essentially didn't care (we did a 
good job, and few of them needed our help), some of them were apt to 
be upset. So we did what we could to make the transition easier for 
them; we contacted our "good guy" competition and introduced him to 
the customers who were likely to be upset. That gave them the 
reassurance that there was someone "recommendable" in the area whom 
they could call.

I could have walked off and abandoned those people completely. I 
didn't do that. I could have come up with a scheme that would have 
cost me money. I didn't do that either. I treated my customers in the 
best way I could afford to do so, enabling them to keep their 
businesses running with the equipment I'd sold them.

The OS/2 community has had experience with one ISV, SPG, who actively 
abandoned the community, after making implied promises of a new 
product. Other OS/2 ISVs have quietly stopped updating their 
applications, and turned their attention to more remunerative 
platforms. Want a copy of Skyscraper? Lantastic for OS/2? the IBM OS/2
Funpak? Sorry, you're out of luck. Dan Porter had the guts to tell 
people what the company was doing, and why, even if the news wasn't 
what you wanted to hear. And he make the current versions available 
for free, with no strings attached.

Although I loved ColorWorks, I'd never again review an SPG product. 
I'd have no problem writing about an application from Innoval. They 
treated their users as well as they could, which is more than one can 
say for a majority of vendors.

--Esther

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: fred.nospam.emmerich@ibm.net                      31-Aug-99 18:43:28
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 10:43:23
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: fred.nospam.emmerich@ibm.net

In <7qf3a2$55e$13@news.hawaii.edu>, on 08/30/99 
   at 11:15 PM, tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)
said:

>> Innoval is completely abandoning development and support of all commercial
>> OS/2 software and Tim says "It's a shame but our best wishes go with you."
>> Stardock continues to develops OS/2 software but also develops WIN32
>> software and Tim says "You're a money-grubbing bastard and you're
exploiting
>> OS/2 users." Why the difference?

>Steven Den Beste comments on articles posted by others in
>this newsgroup that have nothing to do with OS/2, yet he
>posts articles in this newsgroup that have nothing to do
>with OS/2.  Why the difference?

Dumb-fuck Tholen can't seem to identify the "OS/2" in the
text he quoted from Steven.

Clue:  Stevens post *does* have something to do with OS/2.


=====================
Fred Emmerich           
fred.emmerich@ibm.net
=====================




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From: pcguido@ibm.net                                   01-Sep-99 00:58:13
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 10:43:24
Subj: Re: Here's a lob, smack the hell out of it...

From: pcguido@ibm.net

In <37CC037E.D9D51E6E@isomedia.com>, "David T. Johnson"
<djohnson@isomedia.com> writes:
|John Patrick Lestrade wrote:
||
||
|[snip]
|| SO, my question, to the cognocenti out there. What is currently the "best"
solution
|| for a stable compatible operating system (this is the lob mentioned in the
|| header.)?
|
|Hands down OS/2 v4.

Actually... VM/CMS, any version from HPO on... :)

All of that not withstanding, OS/2 v4. Thumbs Up!

|| Will there be an update to OS/2 that is MORE compatible with windows? Is
that puppy
|| dead and buried?
|
|No, OS/2 will likely never run Win32 software.  Note, however, that this
|is a feature, not a disadvantage.

If you can be file level capatible with MS Office, you can live without
win32. Both Star Office & Smart Suite offer the ability to import and
export MS formats.

|| Is linux going to supplant os/2 as the windows beater? What;s a user to do?
|
|Linux has a lot of momentum but it's not as sexy as OS/2 IMHO.

Agreed. OS/2 just has that _feel_ a feel not unlike VM, I might add.
The Work Place Shell desktop is still the best in the business, even
with only minor tweaks in the last 4 yrs.

OTOH, Linus says Linux should be ready to challenge Windows for the
desktop in about two years. Judging from the improvements in Linux,
install, performance, and GUI over the last 2yrs, he may just make it.

At least for today, as good as the KDE X manager has become, OS/2
is still a far easier to use and more enjoyable "computing experience"!

Guido

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From: malstrom@yolen.oit.umass.edu                      31-Aug-99 22:02:03
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 10:43:24
Subj: Re: Warp4-and-HPFS386

From: JM <malstrom@yolen.oit.umass.edu>

Steven C. Den Beste <sdenbes1@san.rr.com> wrote:
: On 31 Aug 1999 04:19:49 GMT, Rogprov recycled some holes into the following
: pattern:

:>In article <37CA875A.E77916E3@ruhr-uni-bochum.de>, Christian Hennecke
:><christian.hennecke@ruhr-uni-bochum.de> writes:
:>
:>>Maybe 90% is a bit much. However, I was talking about homeusers and from
:>>what I KNOW most of them haven't paid for their copy of MS Office, Adobe
:>>Photoshop and the like. That's a plain fact!
:>>
:>>
:>
:>I agree, the vast majority of MS homeusers I know run unpaid for
applications -
:>including the operating system be it Win95 or Win98.  Most seem under the
:>impression that all the need to pay for is the hardware!
:>
:>Roger Provins

: What I objected to was not the characterisation that lots of Windows users
: run at least a few unpaid application; I objected to the characterisation
: that lots (he claimed 90%) of Windows users run unpaid applications
: *exclusively*.

: That's a much different thing.

Yup, most Windows users at least paid for the preloaded applications on 
their computer.

-Jason

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From: malstrom@yolen.oit.umass.edu                      31-Aug-99 22:16:27
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 10:43:24
Subj: Re: Sun to proliferate Star Office...

From: JM <malstrom@yolen.oit.umass.edu>

Tim Smith <tzs@halcyon.com> wrote:
: Jerry McBride <mcbrides@erols.com> wrote:
:>  Star Office without paying. That price tag stands in stark
:>  contrast to Microsoft Office, which costs about $400 for a
:>  basic version and much more for premium versions."
: ...
:>MicroSoft just got some serious competition in the offic suite area. Tough
:>decision... spend $400.00 or get one for free. Plus the Java version...

: Not really.  

I agree with you hear but not for the reasons you stated.

: (1) The most important component of Office, Word, is available
: retail for under $100.

Almost no one just has word these days it seems.  Plus you really need to 
have excel to do real work, and Power point just to do basic computer 
tasks.  And $100 is still staggering against $0

: (2) Star Office is way too buggy and is much less functional than Office.
: The people who just got some serious competition are Applix, and, perhaps,
: Corel.

I've found it more functional the Office, partly because I find office 
counter productive.    

The real reason why Star Office still has no chance against Office, is 
because coporations have standardized on Office.  They are more then 
willing to buy their MS Office volume discount to get their standards.  
The only thing that would have a chance to change that is a recession.  
But as long as money is flowing, they will buy Office.

And since people learn it and use it at work, People will look for it 
when they buy a new PC and get it through the PC maker who pays OEM 
prices anyways.

-Jason

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From: malstrom@yolen.oit.umass.edu                      31-Aug-99 22:05:02
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 10:43:24
Subj: Re: Kelly Robinson's Apology 

From: JM <malstrom@yolen.oit.umass.edu>

Richard R. Klemmer <richard@NOSPAMwebtrek.com> wrote:
: On Tue, 31 Aug 1999 15:09:44, richard@NOSPAMwebtrek.com (Richard R. 
: Klemmer) wrote:

:> I only ask this because my Cable Modem provider has switched to @home 
:> and under the old one (Jones Communications) I would be lucky to get 
:> 1/3 of the Newsgroup posts.  I was hoping that the @home News Server 
:> would be better, but it probably isn't.

: I still think I'm not getting all the posts.  I'll have to keep an eye
: on things.

Sometimes me news server starts missing posts.  Then I check with 
dejanews to find some of them, but that's a pain.

-Jason

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From: malstrom@yolen.oit.umass.edu                      31-Aug-99 22:06:12
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 10:43:24
Subj: Re: vmware mistake

From: JM <malstrom@yolen.oit.umass.edu>

pcguido@ibm.net wrote:
: In <37caeb9b.0@oit.umass.edu>, JM <malstrom@emily.oit.umass.edu> writes:
: |Mike Ruskai <thannymeister@spambegone.yahoo.com> wrote:
: |: On 29 Aug 1999 22:46:38 -0500, JM wrote:
: |
: |: [snip]
: |
: |:|Since when has David's, AKA Kelly Robinson's intentions been well
meaning??
: |
: |: Am I correct in assuming that you mean Kelly Robinson is an alias for
: |: David H. McCoy?
: |
: |: If so, that would explain a lot.
: |
: |No, as some other posters have pointed out I'm referring to David P
: |Cole AKA Xerophyte AKA Infinity Rising AKA Kelly Robinson
: |
: |-Jason

: Hey!

: You left out: AKA Dim Bulb

: :) Guido

Shhh, you might get Esther on you case.

-Jason

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From: possum@fred.net                                   01-Sep-99 02:32:14
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 10:43:24
Subj: Re: Here's a lob, smack the hell out of it...

From: possum@fred.net (Mike Trettel)

On 31 Aug 1999 18:18:10 GMT, John Patrick Lestrade <lestrade@Ra.MsState.Edu>
wrote:
>
>I would prefer to have rational responses to this post, but knowing the
number of
>trolls (pro and con os2/windows) I am ready to hit the delete button....

Heh heh...good luck on that one!
>

>
>I did not like the dual boot method. It's like being married to two women.
>You're with one and it is the other one who knows where to scratch your back. 
:)
>
>Anyway, I have not experienced the stability under windows that I had with
os/2.
>On the positive side, I was *really* tired of the whining of the editors in
the
>os/2 mags to which I subscribed "Hey! we have Wordperfect/os2 now! Yea us!"
>They were like poor actors trying to be cheerleaders.

This is to expected, really.  There's a good deal of this going on in
the Linux world nowadays (and I'm not being critical).

>
>I look on an OS as I do a pais of shoes. I need them to get a job done. If
Nike is
>better than Adidas, I will switch to NIke. I will not stick with Adidas and
taunt
>the nike wearers. :)
>
>SO, my question, to the cognocenti out there. What is currently the "best"
solution
>for a stable compatible operating system (this is the lob mentioned in the
>header.)?

I will ask a question back-what types of applications do you need
and/or want to run?  Because, it it comes up being something peculiar
to Win32 then you are best off with Windows of whatever flavor, but
seeing as you want stability it would have to be Win NT until at least
the first service pack for Win2K.  If you are not wedded to the Win32
platform, *then* possibilities arise.  In particular, Linux is looking
good as a desktop platform.  The apps are available now, such as
WordPerfect, Star Office 5.1, and Applixware for office use, and there
are a lot of apps available to fill whatever gaps you need, such as
e-mail and Usenet.

>
>Will there be an update to OS/2 that is MORE compatible with windows? Is that 
puppy
>dead and buried?

No, not from IBM anyway.  The best bet at the moment is the Odin
project, which will attempt to mix the old Win32/OS2 convertor with
Wine.
>
>Is linux going to supplant os/2 as the windows beater? What;s a user to do?

OK, I see a fallacy here.  Linux is best *not* thought of as being a
replacement for Windows.  It does not have access to the vast Win32 app
base except through running vmware and Wine, and quite frankly I don't
see the point to running Win32 stuff that way.  Linux is much better
thought of as being an alternative to Windows, and should be dealt with
on those terms.  Why run Office under vmware when one can run SO 5.1 or
Applixware directly?  Why run Agent when one can run Knews or SLRN? 
Linux has become much more usable for ordinary users with the
introduction of KDE (a modern and stable window manager that even my
5 year old can use), and really only needs to have more support from
VARs to become even more acceptable.  Even then, I don't see it as
taking over from Windows.  Instead I can forsee a reduction in Windows
market grip on the desktop, and being forced to live side by side with
Linux.

Good luck in your search.

>
>regards,
>Patrick
>-- 
>--
>John Patrick Lestrade         | 
>Lestrade@batse.msfc.nasa.gov  | 
>Lestrade@alumni.rice.edu      |


-- 
===========
Mike Trettel    trettel (Shift 2) fred (dinky little round thing) net

I don't buy from spammers.  No exceptions.  Fix the reply line to mail me.

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From: andy@callan57.gtri.gatech.edu                     31-Aug-99 22:56:01
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 14:27:05
Subj: Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2

From: andy@callan57.gtri.gatech.edu ()

On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 22:19:00 -0700, 
Steven C. Den Beste <sdenbes1@san.rr.com> wrote:
>
>I automatically killfile any mail message whose subject doesn't contain at
>least one lower case letter. How would you do that in PMMail? Here's how it
>is done in Agent:
>
..snip...
The power of reg exp notwithstanding, I would suggest that others not
use this filter.  I have seen, or done, the following

- Immediately start typing the body of an email, finished, hit send
  without remembering to set the subject.  I've done that 
  and received that.

- Subject: WOW!!

- Subject: HI!


Regards,

Andy Henshaw

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: hoyenski@compuserve.com                           31-Aug-99 22:39:10
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 14:27:05
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: Charles James Hoyenski III <hoyenski@compuserve.com>

It was announced today that sun microsystems has just purchased a firm 
that does evrything Micorsoft Office does, but it will be for free;
"           Star Division G.m.b.H., a German producer of
          office productivity software, which moved its
          headquarters to California last year. Its Star
          Office is a bundle of programs -- word
          processors, spreadsheets, schedulers, personal
          data base and presentation software -- in the
          same application categories as the Microsoft
          Corporation's Office suite, the industry leader. "
This is what the IT industry would label an "open system standard", 
translation; you dont have to bend over and pay MS $$ evry time you want
to upgrade, by the way, Linux even has the source code along with the
compiled os and gnu etc. compiles that come with the unix emulating os.
Matthias Warkus wrote:
> 
> It was the Sun, 29 Aug 1999 16:31:20 -0400...
> ..and nn <nn@nn.nn> wrote:
> >
> > A.Lizard <"alizard[spam]"@ecis.com> wrote in message
> >
> > > In a couple of years, I expect "normal" PCs to be running Linux.
> >
> > MS is a long way from losing the typical OEM desktop market, most users
> > barely know how to save a file or type in a URL on their computers. Linux
> > will never be even a remote threat because a typical user cannott and does
> > not care to hassle with it. Linux is a pain in the ass to install and
setup,
> > sorry. The millions of home users who are driving the market would reject
a
> > Linux OS on their newly purchased computer instantly.
> 
> You're not only trolling, but a lot behind reality. You can get PCs
> with Linux pre-installed and perfectly set up today (at Red Zac).
> 
> mawa
> --
> Among all savage beasts, none is found so harmful as woman.
>         -- St. John Chrysostom, 304-407.

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From: hoyenski@compuserve.com                           31-Aug-99 22:45:01
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 14:27:05
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: Charles James Hoyenski III <hoyenski@compuserve.com>

In a post Y2k world where MS is toast, and only guru's have pc's anyway,
you would be incorrect. If nobody had money, (or at least discreationary
income), they certainly would not piss it away paying the beast in
redmond, if they could get equivalent software for free, right now MS
provides a good product for a reasonable cost, but if even that cost was
beyond what people could afford, say after the new millenium, then your
argument would not ring true. Bill gates is NOT worth 15 billion and the
value of MS stock is not even close to being worth a half trillion, you
will soon find this out in the next "market correction" coming around
the end of the year.
nn wrote:
> 
> I wouldn't consider any part of that statement to be trolling - dumb ass.
> Everyone knows you can get a PC with Linux installed and have been able to
> for about the same length of time that it took Windows to get a 95% or
> greater market share. The future of Linux as a home users OS (if it hasn't
> already peaked) is dismall , no trolling about it, it's fact. be happy that
> it is even as popular as it is now.
> 
> Matthias Warkus <mawa@iname.com> wrote in message
> news:slrn7sj6t3.6pb.mawa@audrey.my.box...
> > It was the Sun, 29 Aug 1999 16:31:20 -0400...
> > ..and nn <nn@nn.nn> wrote:
> > >
> > > A.Lizard <"alizard[spam]"@ecis.com> wrote in message
> > >
> > > > In a couple of years, I expect "normal" PCs to be running Linux.
> > >
> > > MS is a long way from losing the typical OEM desktop market, most users
> > > barely know how to save a file or type in a URL on their computers.
> Linux
> > > will never be even a remote threat because a typical user cannott and
> does
> > > not care to hassle with it. Linux is a pain in the ass to install and
> setup,
> > > sorry. The millions of home users who are driving the market would
> reject a
> > > Linux OS on their newly purchased computer instantly.
> >
> > You're not only trolling, but a lot behind reality. You can get PCs
> > with Linux pre-installed and perfectly set up today (at Red Zac).
> >
> > mawa
> > --
> > Among all savage beasts, none is found so harmful as woman.
> > -- St. John Chrysostom, 304-407.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: rdhughes@home.com                                 31-Aug-99 22:51:20
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 14:27:05
Subj: Re: Shrink-wrapped Software is Dead

From: Rob Hughes <rdhughes@home.com>

Interesting point. Thanks for the post. I've been thinking along similar
lines for awhile now, but haven't said anything. One possible benefit to
consumers will be smaller, tighter code since it would seem obvious that
people aren't going to want to perform lengthy downloads, therefore the
programs must stay small, or at least modular.

"David T. Johnson" wrote:

> Based on present trends, it looks like future innovative software will
> be downloaded, not shrink-wrapped, and come from relatively small
> companies.  OS/2 shrink-wrapped software has been largely gone from
> retail channels for several years but what is really remarkable is that
> it looks like Windows shrink-wrapped software is following it out of the
> door.  Perhaps the day of the multi-thousand-employee software company
> has passed.


  -----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ==----------
   http://www.newsfeeds.com       The Largest Usenet Servers in the World!
------== Over 73,000 Newsgroups - Including  Dedicated  Binaries Servers
==-----

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: pasnak@delete.cableregina.com                     31-Aug-99 21:52:08
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 14:27:05
Subj: Re: MSWolf in sheep's clothing and nothing more.

From: pasnak@delete.cableregina.com (J.P. Pasnak)

On Tue, 31 Aug 1999 13:45:04, bowenjm@rintintin.colorado.edu (Jason 
Bowen) woke up with a head full of whiskey and wrote:

> In article <37CB7291.581E2203@WarpCity.com>,
> Tim Martin  <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com> wrote:
> >Kris Kwilas wrote:
> >
> >> But, that doesn't matter to you, does it? No doubt you'll be leading
> >> a Charge Of One against anything SDS/OS/2 related in the future. :-)
> >>
> >
> >Stardock is rarely, if ever, mentioned at Warp City.  There
> >is simply no reason to do so.  Stardock is a Windows software
> 
> You love to talk about them here though, why the disparity?  It does seem
> odd that you do condsidering your claim that OS/2 users avoid the
> newsgroups.  You instruct Warp City members to avoid the newsgroups yet
> post here.
> 

If you consistently went somewhere to make an ass of yourself, 
wouldn't you tell your friends? and followers? to avoid said place?


> >developer seeking money out of OS/2 users to fund development
> >of software for Microsoft operating systems.  Why you people
> >persist with this "we support OS/2" facade is silly.  Your claim
> >that your windows software sales support your OS/2 software
> >is stupid.  OS/2 users don't buy your OS/2 software because
> >it is just too old.  Stardock's reputation is often equated to SPGs.
> >The only difference is SPG is gone but Stardock is still here,
> >still trying to con the OS/2 user, still spamming the newsgroups,
> >still playing that vaporware carrot game.
> 
> Still lieing I see.
> 
I wouldn't call it a lie, I would call it a dillusional fantasy.

> >
> >You claim there is no OS/2 market.  Put up or shut up.  Release
> >your faded OS/2 software.  Show some class and style.  We all
> >know you have no intention of ever supporting OS/2 again.
> >Open your site to free OS/2 downloads and walk away.
> >Release the source code to those OS/2 programmers who really
> >love OS/2 and can actually offer the OS/2 community something
> >worthwhile instead of never-ending spam and vaporware ads.
> 
> Do you read what you write Tim?  Your ramblings make no sense.
> 

The countless hours spent maintaining the support for 5000 subscribes 
to Warp City only allows him time to _spout_ inane rhetoric.  He may 
have the  ability to read his own posts, but the amount of time it 
would take him to comprehend how idiotic saying, and I paraphrase, 
'Your software is crap, give it to me for free' is, would not allow 
him to post more moronic articles.  And his Mom only allows him so 
much time online.


J.P. Pasnak
'feelin' bitter'
Warped Systems
******************
http://members.xoom.com/Warped/every/everything.html
http://members.xoom.com/Warped/every/dirmap.html
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/warpedusers
*******************

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From: ev515o@hotmail.com                                31-Aug-99 23:00:04
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 14:27:06
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: ev515o@hotmail.com (Mayor Of R'lyeh)

On Tue, 31 Aug 1999 22:39:21 -0700, Charles James Hoyenski III
<hoyenski@compuserve.com> chose to bless us with this bit of wisdom:

>It was announced today that sun microsystems has just purchased a firm 
>that does evrything Micorsoft Office does, but it will be for free;
>"           Star Division G.m.b.H., a German producer of
>          office productivity software, which moved its
>          headquarters to California last year. Its Star
>          Office is a bundle of programs -- word
>          processors, spreadsheets, schedulers, personal
>          data base and presentation software -- in the
>          same application categories as the Microsoft
>          Corporation's Office suite, the industry leader. "
>This is what the IT industry would label an "open system standard", 
>translation; you dont have to bend over and pay MS $$ evry time you want
>to upgrade, by the way, Linux even has the source code along with the
>compiled os and gnu etc. compiles that come with the unix emulating os.

You may want to download and evaluate a copy before you say it does
everything Office does. Its a nice suite but its more comparable to MS
Works than MS Office.


>Matthias Warkus wrote:
>> 
>> It was the Sun, 29 Aug 1999 16:31:20 -0400...
>> ..and nn <nn@nn.nn> wrote:
>> >
>> > A.Lizard <"alizard[spam]"@ecis.com> wrote in message
>> >
>> > > In a couple of years, I expect "normal" PCs to be running Linux.
>> >
>> > MS is a long way from losing the typical OEM desktop market, most users
>> > barely know how to save a file or type in a URL on their computers. Linux
>> > will never be even a remote threat because a typical user cannott and
does
>> > not care to hassle with it. Linux is a pain in the ass to install and
setup,
>> > sorry. The millions of home users who are driving the market would reject 
a
>> > Linux OS on their newly purchased computer instantly.
>> 
>> You're not only trolling, but a lot behind reality. You can get PCs
>> with Linux pre-installed and perfectly set up today (at Red Zac).
>> 
>> mawa
>> --
>> Among all savage beasts, none is found so harmful as woman.
>>         -- St. John Chrysostom, 304-407.

-- 

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn

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From: dmcbride@no.tower.spam.to.org                     01-Sep-99 04:00:07
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 14:27:06
Subj: Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2

From: "Darin McBride" <dmcbride@no.tower.spam.to.org>

On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 19:49:16 -0700, Steven C. Den Beste wrote:

>>1. What do you think Brad does for a living????  Here's a hint: it's not
>>Win32.  (Then again, I don't do Windows either.)
>
>If you think that OS/2 software is the predominant source of income for IBM,
>think again. I phrased my statement carefully: I said "company", not
>"employee".

No, you're right.  Hardware is.

However, for our particular product, you'd be mistaken.  We still make most
of our money on OS/2.  All of the salaries of all of the employees, and all
of our expenses, are paid for by OS/2 sales.  With a fair chunk of change
left over.  Income on the other platforms, TTBOMK, are purely icing.  (Yes,
this is changing.  NT is growing fast, although I suspect NT will never have
the 'lead' in our income for too long - Linux will quickly take over.)

---
Disclaimer: unless explicitly mentioned otherwise, I do not speak,
nor have I ever spoken, for the company I work for.



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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: nn@nn.nn                                          01-Sep-99 00:14:23
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 14:27:06
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: "nn" <nn@nn.nn>

It' an old argument but the major setback is that a new user having to know
exactly what kind of harware is inside his system especially the video
adapter which can be quite a pain, granted it is still a pain for Windows if
you don't have the drivers handy especially in a chincy OEM system.

Windows on a home built machine goes in so easy that you simply that one
merely hovers his hand near the return key for about a half hour. Keep a
couple mirror copies of your C:\ partition (w/Power Quest Drive Image Pro
:-) and important files on another drive for the inevitable crash beyond
repair and it's a matter of 30 minutes to restore everything to a crisp
clean state including *most of your apps. - No problem.

You can't run a server with any kind of stability that you can get with
Linux but for 90% of home computer users Windows does a good enough job.


Steve Mading <madings@baladi.nmrfam.wisc.edu> wrote in message
news:7qhen3$8su$4@news.doit.wisc.edu...
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy nn <nn@nn.nn> wrote:
> : I wouldn't consider any part of that statement to be trolling - dumb
ass.
> : Everyone knows you can get a PC with Linux installed and have been able
to
> : for about the same length of time that it took Windows to get a 95% or
> : greater market share. The future of Linux as a home users OS (if it
hasn't
> : already peaked) is dismall , no trolling about it, it's fact. be happy
that
> : it is even as popular as it is now.
>
> Can we save this and throw it in your face in a few years?
> You will be proven wrong.  Linux is starting to be used in
> embedded things enough where it will, I think, start getting
> used by people who don't even know they are using it.


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From: malstrom@wilde.oit.umass.edu                      01-Sep-99 00:31:15
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 14:27:06
Subj: Re: Here's a lob, smack the hell out of it...

From: JM <malstrom@wilde.oit.umass.edu>

John Patrick Lestrade <lestrade@Ra.MsState.Edu> wrote:

: SO, my question, to the cognocenti out there. What is currently the 
: "best" solution
: for a stable compatible operating system (this is the lob mentioned in the
: header.)?

Well for you it sounds like Windows.  But for some of us it's OS/2.  For 
other's it's BeOS or Linux or even FreeBSD.

: Will there be an update to OS/2 that is MORE compatible with windows? 
: Is that puppy dead and buried?

Any future OS/2 update itself won't be any more compatible with windows.  
Their is third party stuff being work on, but I wouldn't bet the farm on 
it just yet.

: Is linux going to supplant os/2 as the windows beater? What;s a user to do?

Right now Linux is the operating system that everyone wants to fix.  So 
their is a lot of excitement over it.  Your best bet is to have a 
mult-boot set up on your computer.  Don't worry, it's not like being 
married to two women, it's like having a girlfriend on the side.  Now 
that I've offended everyone I'll sign off.

-Jason

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From: josco@ibm.net                                     31-Aug-99 21:50:04
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 17:47:18
Subj: Re: Java continues to splinter

From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net>


Steven C. Den Beste wrote:

> On Tue, 31 Aug 1999 00:00:26 -0400, Joseph recycled some holes into the
> following pattern:
>
> >>
> >> I'll leave it as an exercise for the student whether Joseph or myself was
> >> more accurate in our appraisal of the situation.
> >
> >: )
> >Sure Steven  Hey what is IA64?
> >And if Compaq is dumping ALPHA then why haven't they dumped UNIX, LINUX and 
VMS?
>
> One of the most important phrases in the English language is "I was wrong".
> Someday, perhaps, we'll actually see you type it in a message here in this
> group. Practice it, because the path to wisdom begins with the ability to
> admit your errors.

First  you said, "I'll leave it as an exercise for the student" , now you try
to play
the part of the stern parent.  A little kid swinging away with any and every
gimmick
except the facts.

Once more:
    Links to Compaq OSs for their ALPHA systems:
    Tru64 UNIX (formerly called DIGITAL UNIX )  http://www.unix.digital.com/
    OpenVMS (formerly called VMS )  http://www.openvms.digital.com/
    LINUX for ALPHA  http://www.unix.digital.com/linux/  &
http://www.testdrive.compaq.com/linux/
    NT for ALPHA  (to be discontinued -- see x86 NT)
    NT64 for ALPHA    (TBD)

Who wants to assert Compaq's consolidating behind the IA64 code base? Not me.  
Compaq
has a multi OS policy for the ALPHA as their competitor IBM has for the PPC
(Mac,
AS/400, AIX, LINUX and etc.) and Intel for the IA32, and IA64 (OS/2, Windows
NT,
LINUX and etc.  )

> [IA64 is the 64-bit chip being developed by Intel to replace the IA32,
> better known as the "Pentium". IA64 will include the ability to execute IA32
> code.]

Now how does IA64 relate to the abandonment of NT ALPHA? It didn't.

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From: josco@ibm.net                                     31-Aug-99 21:54:08
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 17:47:18
Subj: Re: Here's a lob, smack the hell out of it...

From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net>


JM wrote:

> John Patrick Lestrade <lestrade@Ra.MsState.Edu> wrote:
>
> : SO, my question, to the cognocenti out there. What is currently the
> : "best" solution
> : for a stable compatible operating system (this is the lob mentioned in the
> : header.)?
>
> Well for you it sounds like Windows.  But for some of us it's OS/2.  For
> other's it's BeOS or Linux or even FreeBSD.

Within the X86 world, the most stable OS is FreeBSD. It is also SMP enable in
V
3.1 and it runs LINUX apps.  The most fun and stable is OS/2.

FreeBSD is also the most secure -- an open code base with peer review and a
small, controlled, and managed development team.

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From: josco@ibm.net                                     31-Aug-99 21:59:27
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 17:47:18
Subj: Re: Sun to proliferate Star Office...

From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net>


Daniel Say wrote:

> Dennis Peterson <dpeterso@halcyon.com> wrote:
> :>  "Both StarPortal and the conventional versions of the
> :>   software will be given away for free to all comers, not just
> :>   the educational and home users that used to be able to get
> :>   Star Office without paying. That price tag stands in stark
> :>   contrast to Microsoft Office, which costs about $400 for a
> :>   basic version and much more for premium versions."
> :>
> :> Full story:
> :>   http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,41111,00.html?owv
>
> --------
>         and various other items.
>         See the LATimes for a more negative view of
>         StarOffice and its adhreents.

Then the LA Times can pay for MS Office. LA has ~ 3.7 million citizens.
Each requires a license at say some low, low rate of $300 per person or
about 1 billion dollars.

The $49 version 5.0 for OS/2 came with CD and documentation.  I use it
to open, read and edit MS Office97 files.

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From: jedi@dementia.mishnet                             31-Aug-99 21:54:13
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 17:47:18
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()

On Tue, 31 Aug 1999 23:00:08 -0500, Mayor Of R'lyeh <ev515o@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>On Tue, 31 Aug 1999 22:39:21 -0700, Charles James Hoyenski III
><hoyenski@compuserve.com> chose to bless us with this bit of wisdom:
>
>>It was announced today that sun microsystems has just purchased a firm 
>>that does evrything Micorsoft Office does, but it will be for free;
>>"           Star Division G.m.b.H., a German producer of
>>          office productivity software, which moved its
>>          headquarters to California last year. Its Star
>>          Office is a bundle of programs -- word
>>          processors, spreadsheets, schedulers, personal
>>          data base and presentation software -- in the
>>          same application categories as the Microsoft
>>          Corporation's Office suite, the industry leader. "
>>This is what the IT industry would label an "open system standard", 
>>translation; you dont have to bend over and pay MS $$ evry time you want
>>to upgrade, by the way, Linux even has the source code along with the
>>compiled os and gnu etc. compiles that come with the unix emulating os.
>
>You may want to download and evaluate a copy before you say it does
>everything Office does. Its a nice suite but its more comparable to MS
>Works than MS Office.

	And why is this, precisely. What is it that MS Office does
	that the others don't and more importantly, why should anyone
	care short of maintaining compatibility with all those wankers
	that think that everyone has money to burn on office licences?

>
>
>>Matthias Warkus wrote:
>>> 
>>> It was the Sun, 29 Aug 1999 16:31:20 -0400...
>>> ..and nn <nn@nn.nn> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > A.Lizard <"alizard[spam]"@ecis.com> wrote in message
>>> >
>>> > > In a couple of years, I expect "normal" PCs to be running Linux.
>>> >
>>> > MS is a long way from losing the typical OEM desktop market, most users
>>> > barely know how to save a file or type in a URL on their computers.
Linux
>>> > will never be even a remote threat because a typical user cannott and
does
>>> > not care to hassle with it. Linux is a pain in the ass to install and
setup,
>>> > sorry. The millions of home users who are driving the market would
reject a
>>> > Linux OS on their newly purchased computer instantly.
>>> 
>>> You're not only trolling, but a lot behind reality. You can get PCs
>>> with Linux pre-installed and perfectly set up today (at Red Zac).
>>> 
>>> mawa
>>> --
>>> Among all savage beasts, none is found so harmful as woman.
>>>         -- St. John Chrysostom, 304-407.
>
>-- 
>
>Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn


-- 

It helps the car, in terms of end user complexity and engineering,         
that a car is not expected to suddenly become wood chipper at some    |||
arbitrary point as it's rolling down the road.                       / | \
						                       
			Seeking sane PPP Docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com

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From: elflord@panix.com                                 01-Sep-99 01:00:26
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 17:47:18
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: elflord@panix.com (Donovan Rebbechi)

On Wed, 1 Sep 1999 00:14:47 -0400, nn wrote:
>It' an old argument but the major setback is that a new user having to know
>exactly what kind of harware is inside his system especially the video

They don't need to

>adapter which can be quite a pain,

Redhat autodetects supported video adaptors.

>Windows on a home built machine goes in so easy that you simply that one

If you home-build a machine with linux in mind, it also installs like
a dream.

>merely hovers his hand near the return key for about a half hour. Keep a

Linux you barely need do even that.

>You can't run a server with any kind of stability that you can get with
>Linux 

Did you screw up your wording or are you saying that linux is unstable ?
please clarify.

-- 
Donovan

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From: jvarela@mind-spring.com                           31-Aug-99 21:00:02
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 17:47:18
Subj: Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2

From: jvarela@mind-spring.com (John Varela)

On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 23:44:06, "Darin McBride" 
<dmcbride@no.tower.spam.to.org> wrote:

> >What this means is that if I receive mail and I'm not explicitly on the
> >address list for "To:" or "CC:", then no matter what those fields do say it
> >goes into the trashbin. So those "blind CC" messages where the "from" and
> >"to" fields are the same, or with "recipient list suppressed", are trashed
> >automatically.
>  
> Never thought about blocking this way.  Neat.  :-)

As long as you don't belong to any mail lists. 

--
John Varela
to e-mail, remove - between mind and spring

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From: josco@ibm.net                                     31-Aug-99 22:06:27
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 17:47:18
Subj: Re: Sun to proliferate Star Office...

From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net>


Tim Smith wrote:

> Jerry McBride <mcbrides@erols.com> wrote:
> >  Star Office without paying. That price tag stands in stark
> >  contrast to Microsoft Office, which costs about $400 for a
> >  basic version and much more for premium versions."
> ...
> >MicroSoft just got some serious competition in the offic suite area. Tough
> >decision... spend $400.00 or get one for free. Plus the Java version...
>
> Not really.  (1) The most important component of Office, Word, is available
> retail for under $100.
>
> (2) Star Office is way too buggy and is much less functional than Office.
> The people who just got some serious competition are Applix, and, perhaps,
> Corel.

(1) is a comparision of apples to fruit salad -- Word is incapable of opening
many enclosures and in fact MS's crummy WORDPAD as well as most WP's read WORD
files.(2) is patently false.  I have daily experiences with Office97 on Win95
and OS/2 StarOffice.  I share documents and have many app crashes on Office97
and also a failure to properly open apps when double clicked in Windows.  I
have had several -- Several -- reinstalls of Office97 and the damn thing is
keyserved.  It needs the net to be up to run.  I also have to have Norton
runnin on Windows to save my system from crummy macro viri.

StarOffie on OS/2 isn't a buggy app.  It's very reliable for me and it lets me
read and edit PPT and XLS enclosures.


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From: thannymeister@spambegone.yahoo.com                01-Sep-99 01:45:01
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 17:47:18
Subj: Re: vmware mistake

From: "Mike Ruskai" <thannymeister@spambegone.yahoo.com>

On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 11:48:37 -0400, Marty wrote:

>Mike Ruskai wrote:
>> 
>> On 29 Aug 1999 22:46:38 -0500, JM wrote:
>> 
>> [snip]
>> 
>> >Since when has David's, AKA Kelly Robinson's intentions been well
meaning??
>> 
>> Am I correct in assuming that you mean Kelly Robinson is an alias for
>> David H. McCoy?
>> 
>> If so, that would explain a lot.
>
>Not really.  David H. McCoy is capable of upholding a reasonable
>conversation with someone who has an opposing viewpoint.  He may be very
>biased toward one side of the equation (not unlike Steven) but he is a
>reasonable person in my experience.

I haven't been reading many posts from this "Kelly Robinson", but what I
have read is well within the bounds of McCoy's insanity.  

He has the capacity for reason, but he too often neglects it in favor of
placating that part of his psychology which desparately needs to belittle
that which he has forsaken, while boosting that which he has chosen.



 - Mike

Remove 'spambegone' to send e-mail.


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From: donjoe@example.com                                01-Sep-99 01:45:09
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 17:47:19
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: donjoe@example.com (Don Joe - see signature)

Ah, the sport of MS-Hating.

On Tue, 31 Aug 1999 22:39:21 -0700, Charles James Hoyenski III
<hoyenski@compuserve.com> wrote:

>It was announced today that sun microsystems has just purchased a firm 
>that does evrything Micorsoft Office does, but it will be for free;

I once had a car that did everything a Porsche does, but it only cost me 150
bucks.  It was a Sunbeam Minx.  Wheels, doors, engine, the whole shootin'
match.

>"           Star Division G.m.b.H., a German producer of
>          office productivity software, which moved its
>          headquarters to California last year. Its Star
>          Office is a bundle of programs -- word
>          processors, spreadsheets, schedulers, personal
>          data base and presentation software -- in the
>          same application categories as the Microsoft
>          Corporation's Office suite, the industry leader. "
>This is what the IT industry would label an "open system standard", 
>translation; you dont have to bend over and pay MS $$ evry time you want
>to upgrade, by the way, Linux even has the source code along with the
>compiled os and gnu etc. compiles that come with the unix emulating os.

Uh, right.  Same kind of "open standard" as, say, "Java"?  The kind of "open
standard" where one company -- Sun -- maintains absolute dictatorial control
over the "standard"?

Fuck ya, dood.


-- 
This is not a real email address, nor a real name, so
don't reply via email.

Seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, and months all
roll over.  Years don't.

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From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               01-Sep-99 02:07:15
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 17:47:19
Subj: Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2

From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste)

On Tue, 31 Aug 1999 08:04:11 -0400, Dennis Peterson recycled some holes into
the following pattern:

>As for being a sad day for OS/2 -- I think not. Clearly not enough users
>purchased the programs to support the effort write and maintain them,
>and those that hadn't likely never would have. Now that they are free,
>they will more likely have additional users and more satisfied OS/2
>customers. That was also the case with ColorWorks and DeScribe though
>those packages were not let out for free when the end came. They were
>greatly reduced in price,though, and I bought both of them and continue
>to be pleased with them. I also grabbed a copy of PageMaker/2 at a great
>savings. Oh, and Excel/2. All are now out of production, all working
>still working great, no talking paperclips. Life is good.
>
>Steven, you just have to stop looking at the cloud and start
>appreciating the silver lining!
>
>dp

While an occasional close-out sale is probably a bargain, if that's your
only source of products then you're in trouble. It means you're using up
suppliers, and eventually you'll run out.

I don't see how this can be interpreted as "good".

There's an old joke about Microsoft users not fixing a burnt out light bulb,
but rather redefining darkness as the new standard.

What I see OS/2 users here doing when the light bulb burns out is to start
explaining why darkness is better and why it was what they really wanted all
along actually -- and that everyone else is going to deliberately smash
their light bulbs any time now.

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
              -- Calvin

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From: hobbyist@nospam.net                               01-Sep-99 06:48:22
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 17:47:19
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hobbyist_=A9?= <hobbyist@nospam.net>

In response to nn's post :

> It' an old argument but the major setback is that a new user having to know
> exactly what kind of harware is inside his system especially the video
> adapter which can be quite a pain, granted it is still a pain for Windows if
> you don't have the drivers handy especially in a chincy OEM system.
> 
> Windows on a home built machine goes in so easy that you simply that one
> merely hovers his hand near the return key for about a half hour. Keep a
> couple mirror copies of your C:\ partition (w/Power Quest Drive Image Pro
> :-) and important files on another drive for the inevitable crash beyond
> repair and it's a matter of 30 minutes to restore everything to a crisp
> clean state including *most of your apps. - No problem.
 
> You can't run a server with any kind of stability that you can get with
> Linux but for 90% of home computer users Windows does a good enough job.

Have you tried Linux recently, say, RedHat or Linux Mandrake. The
installs are quite easy if not easier than windows at times.
Saying windows is easier than Linux based on installation is an
argument that is more or less defunct. Furthermore, most windows
using people have never installed windows themselves before and
would fibrillate if you propose that they do.

-- 
-=Ali=- 

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From: hobbyist@nospam.net                               01-Sep-99 06:50:27
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 17:47:19
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hobbyist_=A9?= <hobbyist@nospam.net>

In response to Mayor Of R'lyeh's post :

> >It was announced today that sun microsystems has just purchased a firm 
> >that does evrything Micorsoft Office does, but it will be for free;
> >"           Star Division G.m.b.H., a German producer of
> >          office productivity software, which moved its
> >          headquarters to California last year. Its Star
> >          Office is a bundle of programs -- word
> >          processors, spreadsheets, schedulers, personal
> >          data base and presentation software -- in the
> >          same application categories as the Microsoft
> >          Corporation's Office suite, the industry leader. "
> >This is what the IT industry would label an "open system standard", 
> >translation; you dont have to bend over and pay MS $$ evry time you want
> >to upgrade, by the way, Linux even has the source code along with the
> >compiled os and gnu etc. compiles that come with the unix emulating os.
> 
> You may want to download and evaluate a copy before you say it does
> everything Office does. Its a nice suite but its more comparable to MS
> Works than MS Office.

It may not do *everything* that M$ Office does but it certainly
isn't comparable to M$ works, c'mon man.

-- 
-=Ali=- 

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From: dmcbride@no.tower.spam.to.org                     01-Sep-99 13:26:21
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 17:47:19
Subj: Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2

From: "Darin McBride" <dmcbride@no.tower.spam.to.org>

On 31 Aug 1999 21:00:04 GMT, John Varela wrote:

>On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 23:44:06, "Darin McBride" 
><dmcbride@no.tower.spam.to.org> wrote:
>
>> >What this means is that if I receive mail and I'm not explicitly on the
>> >address list for "To:" or "CC:", then no matter what those fields do say
it
>> >goes into the trashbin. So those "blind CC" messages where the "from" and
>> >"to" fields are the same, or with "recipient list suppressed", are trashed
>> >automatically.
>>  
>> Never thought about blocking this way.  Neat.  :-)
>
>As long as you don't belong to any mail lists. 

Good point.  But I suppose that I could move my mail lists to their
appropriate folders *first*, and THEN run the above filter.
---
Disclaimer: unless explicitly mentioned otherwise, I do not speak,
nor have I ever spoken, for the company I work for.



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From: rerbert@wxs.nl                                    01-Sep-99 15:49:01
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 17:47:19
Subj: Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2

From: Gerben Bergman <rerbert@wxs.nl>

Computer, quote cawort01@spam.netcom.com. "Working..."

| >That must be new in PMMail/2 2.0 then, as it wasn't possible in 1.96 (the
| >last version I used under OS/2).
| 
| Well I know that in the EPM editor it keys off text for writing code.  I
| suspect it would be a simple matter to have it key off whatever characters
| note quotes.  I'm not positive on this.  But I do recall people talking
| about making EPM display differently.

Of course, you were talking about the editor in OS/2 (EPM), whereas I was
talking about the editor in *PMMail*. Perhaps I should work on my reading
comprehension. <grumble>

| >"On Sun, 29 Aug 1999 12:27:07 -0500, John Smith wrote:"
| 
| I did not see that option anywhere.  But I didn't look closely.  But it
| should be obvious if it can be changed.

It's not exactly an urgent matter, but it's plain fun if you're interested
in playing with this kind of stuff; the way I've set it up it randomly picks
a different introduction upon each program restart. Sort of like a tagline,
only different. :)

| >It's a pain to set up the 6 (!) Agent toolbars completely to your liking,
| >but once you've done it, it makes using the program a lot more comfortable.
| >Definitely a major plus in my book.
| 
| Hmm in PMMail, all options I ever work with are easily accessible.  By the
| toolbar.

I found myself regularly using functions which weren't on any of the default
toolbars, so the ability to customize them was more than welcome. I'm sure
that saves several hundred meters of mouse movement each year.

| >Can PMMail/2 read and compose HTML mail these days? Or is it limited to
just
| >reading?
| 
| Compose in HTML?  What kind of feature is that?  The need for this is NOT
| obvious to me.  <H1> Anybody can compose in HTML </H1>

HTML mail was supposed to be the next major innovation in the email arena
(composing mail in different fonts, attributes, colors, with inline images,
etc.), and to that end most mailers include word processor-like editors
which allow the user to create messages in HTML format -- without actually
knowing the language. PMMail 98 has one of those (a pretty crappy one), but
I'm not sure PMMail/2 2.0 has followed suit. Has it?

As it happens, once the novelty of this HTML thing wears off, many users
return to the simplicity and raw speed of good-old ASCII mail. And Agent is
the champ in that area. :)

(Speaking of Agent: yesterday it got its first update in over two years:
from 1.5 to 1.6. Nothing spectacular unfortunately [a few Y2K fixes, some
small productivity enhancements and refinements], but it's good to know us
users are still supported.)

| >I take it you consider me one of the "MSFT butt-kissers" who's here to
"bash
| >OS/2". You guys never fail to deliver, do you?
| 
| Not you specifically.  Don't worry :)

<phew>

| >The only thing I've been (moderately) "bashing" lately has been this
group's
| >resident Eliza clone Dave Tholen, and only if you feel he's this righteous
| >"guardian of truth and battler of FUD" could you have come to the
conclusion
| >that I'm here to somehow harm OS/2. Sheesh.
| 
| Dave is in his own world. :)

Yeah, and I'm glad of that. Can you imagine his world being *our* world?
<brrr>

| >Well, I'm glad to be providing you with some much-needed comic relief. :)
| 
| I certainly appreciate your efforts :)

This whole group is one big joke anyway; the only justification for its
existence is the amusement its participants derive from it. *I* certainly
don't see anything wrong with adding a little humor/ridicule to the mix
every once in a while.

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From: josco@ibm.net                                     01-Sep-99 07:37:28
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 17:47:20
Subj: Re: dont blame Gates for IBM not licensing Win32

From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net>


Steven C. Den Beste wrote:

> On 28 Aug 1999 16:28:26 -0500, JM recycled some holes into the following
> pattern:
>
> >Kelly Robinson <ispy@groovyshow.com> wrote:
> >: IBM made Open32, which is a half-assed attempt at Win32 emulation which
> >: failed.
> >
> >Wrong David, it's a half-assed attempt of supporting the Win32 API on
> >OS/2.  It's currently being used as the basis of the Odin-API project.
>
> According to Marty, they're having to rewrite most of it. I seem to remember
> that Timur reported that a lot of it was terribly slow.

Terribly slow -- Really.  So how come the software that uses Open32 API isn't
terribly slow?  What is terribly slow -- slow like running MS Office97 and the
terribly slow MFC?
IBM's Netscape/2 4.61 requires Open32 which is installed with FP5 or above. 
Funny
how MS's APIs like DirectX are thought of as fast whereas an IBM API added to
OS/2
is terribly slow.

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From: ev515o@hotmail.com                                01-Sep-99 10:17:25
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 17:47:20
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: ev515o@hotmail.com (Mayor Of R'lyeh)

On Tue, 31 Aug 1999 21:54:27 -0700, jedi@dementia.mishnet () chose to
bless us with this bit of wisdom:

>On Tue, 31 Aug 1999 23:00:08 -0500, Mayor Of R'lyeh <ev515o@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>>On Tue, 31 Aug 1999 22:39:21 -0700, Charles James Hoyenski III
>><hoyenski@compuserve.com> chose to bless us with this bit of wisdom:
>>
>>>It was announced today that sun microsystems has just purchased a firm 
>>>that does evrything Micorsoft Office does, but it will be for free;
>>>"           Star Division G.m.b.H., a German producer of
>>>          office productivity software, which moved its
>>>          headquarters to California last year. Its Star
>>>          Office is a bundle of programs -- word
>>>          processors, spreadsheets, schedulers, personal
>>>          data base and presentation software -- in the
>>>          same application categories as the Microsoft
>>>          Corporation's Office suite, the industry leader. "
>>>This is what the IT industry would label an "open system standard", 
>>>translation; you dont have to bend over and pay MS $$ evry time you want
>>>to upgrade, by the way, Linux even has the source code along with the
>>>compiled os and gnu etc. compiles that come with the unix emulating os.
>>
>>You may want to download and evaluate a copy before you say it does
>>everything Office does. Its a nice suite but its more comparable to MS
>>Works than MS Office.
>
>	And why is this, precisely. What is it that MS Office does
>	that the others don't

Not the 'others', Star Office. Both Corel's Worperfect and Lotus'
office suites are pretty full featured as well. They also beat Star
Office.
>
>           and more importantly, why should anyone
>	care short of maintaining compatibility with all those wankers
>	that think that everyone has money to burn on office licences?
 
Of course it depends on what you do. If you don't need any of the
features and conveniences that a full bore office suite provides then
Star Office is probably for you. I'm not ripping on the suite. I use
it on my x86 Solaris/Linux box. Its nice. Its just a bit dishonest to
claim that it does 'everything' that MS Office does.

>
>>
>>
>>>Matthias Warkus wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> It was the Sun, 29 Aug 1999 16:31:20 -0400...
>>>> ..and nn <nn@nn.nn> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > A.Lizard <"alizard[spam]"@ecis.com> wrote in message
>>>> >
>>>> > > In a couple of years, I expect "normal" PCs to be running Linux.
>>>> >
>>>> > MS is a long way from losing the typical OEM desktop market, most users
>>>> > barely know how to save a file or type in a URL on their computers.
Linux
>>>> > will never be even a remote threat because a typical user cannott and
does
>>>> > not care to hassle with it. Linux is a pain in the ass to install and
setup,
>>>> > sorry. The millions of home users who are driving the market would
reject a
>>>> > Linux OS on their newly purchased computer instantly.
>>>> 
>>>> You're not only trolling, but a lot behind reality. You can get PCs
>>>> with Linux pre-installed and perfectly set up today (at Red Zac).
>>>> 
>>>> mawa
>>>> --
>>>> Among all savage beasts, none is found so harmful as woman.
>>>>         -- St. John Chrysostom, 304-407.
>>
>>-- 
>>
>>Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn

-- 

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn

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From: brth@firstclass.net                               01-Sep-99 11:41:12
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 17:47:20
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: "Burt Hemingway" <brth@firstclass.net>

Esther Schindler <esther@bitranch.com> wrote in message
news:LoEFmgJJ9ecw-pn2-QNdFdp6yQsdx@agave.bitranch.com...

> Products have intelligence? You mean, someone perfected artificial
> intelligence and *didn't tell me*?!

X-----------------snip----------------------X

You are egoistic, isn't it?






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From: tzs@halcyon.com                                   01-Sep-99 08:46:24
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 17:47:20
Subj: Re: Shrink-wrapped Software is Dead

From: tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith)

David T. Johnson <djohnson@isomedia.com> wrote:
>I was in a CompUSA store a few days ago and I was struck by the lack of
>software variety and selection.  Shrink-wrapped software sold at retail
>outlets seems to be dying.  Five years ago, in my community, there were

This is not surprising, given the fact that nearly everyone who produces
shrink-wrapped software in the United States for sale in the United States
*hates* the way it is sold.  Basically, what determines what software gets on
the shelves, and, of the software that gets on the shelves, which gets the
good positioning, is how much the software developer is willing to pay the
stores.

Then there are the distributors.  Any money you make from sales in the stores
takes forever to get back to you, and there isn't much of it after the
distributors take their cut.

--Tim Smith

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From: rjf@yyycomasia.com                                01-Sep-99 15:57:09
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 17:47:20
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: rjf@yyycomasia.com (rj friedman)

On Tue, 31 Aug 1999 15:32:05, ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
wrote:

īBut it is logical to extend what you know about people in general to the
īcurrent specific situation.  When you rent a car, do you read the manual
īfirst to make sure the accelerator is the pedal on the right, or do you
īassume--logically from past experience--that the probability of the
īaccelerator being on the right is so high that you'd be wasting your time
īto check?

Actually this argument enforces my position, rather than 
detracts from it because in the case of the accelerator's 
position you are dealing with a `mechanical interface'; one 
that has been standardized for approximately 100 yrs. So, on
the one hand, we (again - as in the previous argument wrt 
Sutherland and Glatt) have lots of prior information and 
experience. Information that we don't have about the 
neighbors.

On the other hand, with the accelerator pedal's position, we
don't have to take into account psychological predisposition
and social pressure - which we most certainly must do in the
case of the neighbors. Motivation isn't a factor in the 
accelerator pedal. Motivation on the part of the neighbors -
which we know nothing about - has to be a primary 
consideration.

Extending what I know about people in general (based on more
decades of experience than I care to admit), is that given 
sufficient conditions, there is no position so ludicrous 
that they won't be prepared to defend it with their lives, 
nor is there any behavior too vile for them to scruple at 
engaging in.


ī> Also, I don't know what your neighbors are like - but no way
ī> in the world am I going to base my opinion on *anything* 
ī> solely on the basis of what some of the characters who live 
ī> around me have to say about it.

īI suppose that would depend on what percentage of the population you trust
īto make such judgements, since that affects the probability that Bob will
īunfairly be judged a "jerk" by a very large fraction of his neighbors.

Your point isn't taking motivation into account. It is 
assuming that Bob's neighbor's are judging him honestly and 
fairly. That's not a logical assumption, and I am not 
prepared to make it.


ī> And let us not forget that in the case of the neighbors we 
ī> aren't dealing with a known quantity like we are with Glatt 
ī> and Sutherland. I have a great deal of information about 
ī> their motivations from their behavior here in cooa, in 
ī> general, and their interactions with Dave, in particular.

īThat is true, but the larger the group the less likely that the whole
īgroup simply has an unjustified random grudge against Bob IMO.

Again, you are making the unwarranted assumption that the 
group is judging him honestly and fairly. You are also 
assuming that the grudge is random. Why assume it is random 
just because it is unjustified?

Two examples of why you can't logically assume that an 
unjustified grudge is random - nor that having majority of 
numbers makes the group "probably" right come immediately to
mind: 1) a kangaroo court; 2) the movie "12 Angry Men" - 
where 11 of the jurors - each with his own motive - wanted 
to convict immediately. In the beginning the eleven felt the
lone holdout was a `jerk' for not going along.

If you were to walk into a meeting of the eleven, they would
tell you that the holdout was a jerk. Why? Not because he 
actually was a jerk - but because he was opposing their (as 
it turns out) illogical desire to convict immediately.

And "largeness of group" does not automatically produce 
better judgement (I refer you to your own tagline as a 
rebuttal of that argument - see below).


ī> But, back to the point:
ī> All of which means that you may entertain the *possibility* 
ī> that any particular conclusion is valid. And, true, some 
ī> possiblities may _appear_ to be more probable than others; 
ī> but there isn't enough information given in the example to 
ī> do more than list a number of possibilities - you can't even
ī> logically form a `probably'. 

īI think you can logically argue that some have a higher probability.

You can _suppose_ that some have a higher probability, but 
you can't reach a logically valid conclusion until you 
check. What appears `probable' on the surface often turns 
out to be spurious on closer investigaton. Brad's bogus 
`proofs' of Dave (supposedly) being a jerk, for example.

-------- your tagline coming up:

īIf you surveyed a hundred typical middle-aged Americans, I bet you'd
īfind that only two of them could tell you their blood type, but every
īlast one of them would know the theme song from The Beverly
īHillbillies.  -Dave Barry

With that, I rest my case about the logical validity 
(invalidity!) of coming to conclusions solely on the basis 
of what your neighbors think.  :-)



________________________________________________________

[RJ]                 OS/2 - Live it, or live with it. 
rj friedman          Team ABW              
Taipei, Taiwan       rjf@yyycomasia.com 

To send email - remove the `yyy'
________________________________________________________

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: OS2Guy@WarpCity.com                               01-Sep-99 09:14:29
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 17:47:20
Subj: Re: MSWolf in sheep's clothing and nothing more.

From: Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com>

"J.P. Pasnak" wrote:

> The countless hours spent maintaining the support for 5000 subscribes
> to Warp City ...

We're way beyond that figure now.  I cleared out the waiting
list by handing out free access accounts for the rest of the
year.  In July alone I added another 1,000 members.

> 'Your software is crap, give it to me for free' ...

Some OS/2 users actually like Stardock's products but there
are those who believe it is crap.  Stardock R&D development
monies are now all used to develop applications for the
Microsoft operating systems.  They have no plans to develop
anything substantial for OS/2 (other than a game or two of
which they have stated publicly there is no OS/2 market for).
For all intents and purposes Stardock no longer supports OS/2
with new or future software and now only patronize the OS/2
community to sell off their faded OS/2 offerings.

Rather than play that 'SPG' game they should make a clean
break, show some style and class ala InnoVal and simply
release ftheir faded OS/2 software as a freebe to the OS/2 user.

> would not allow him to post more moronic articles.

As an OS/2 web master I'm proud of our success but I'm
not surprised by the public attacks and useless harassment
by those OS/2 web masters who have been unsuccessful,
such as yourself J.P.

Why not spend your time helping the OS/2 community by
updating your site and putting some real meat into those
many urls you plaster about the newsgroups?

Tim Martin
The OS/2 Guy
Warp City
http://warpcity.com
"E-ride the wild surf to Warp City!"

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From: bowenjm@rintintin.colorado.edu                    01-Sep-99 16:51:02
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 17:47:20
Subj: Re: MSWolf in sheep's clothing and nothing more.

From: bowenjm@rintintin.colorado.edu (Jason Bowen)

In article <37CD5103.D07B5563@WarpCity.com>,
Tim Martin  <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com> wrote:
>"J.P. Pasnak" wrote:
>
>> The countless hours spent maintaining the support for 5000 subscribes
>> to Warp City ...
>
>We're way beyond that figure now.  I cleared out the waiting
>list by handing out free access accounts for the rest of the
>year.  In July alone I added another 1,000 members.

Yet still post in the newsgroups even though you advise your members to
avoid them.

>
>> 'Your software is crap, give it to me for free' ...
>
>Some OS/2 users actually like Stardock's products but there
>are those who believe it is crap.  Stardock R&D development
>monies are now all used to develop applications for the
>Microsoft operating systems.  They have no plans to develop
>anything substantial for OS/2 (other than a game or two of
>which they have stated publicly there is no OS/2 market for).
>For all intents and purposes Stardock no longer supports OS/2
>with new or future software and now only patronize the OS/2
>community to sell off their faded OS/2 offerings.

You sure talk about Stardock alot in the newsgroups.  Stardock isn't
talked about much at Warp City but you sure like to talk about them in the
newsgroups, the same newsgroups you claim OS/2 users avoid.

>
>Rather than play that 'SPG' game they should make a clean
>break, show some style and class ala InnoVal and simply
>release ftheir faded OS/2 software as a freebe to the OS/2 user.

Stardock still makes OS/2 software.  Getting tired of being wrong?

>
>> would not allow him to post more moronic articles.
>
>As an OS/2 web master I'm proud of our success but I'm
>not surprised by the public attacks and useless harassment
>by those OS/2 web masters who have been unsuccessful,
>such as yourself J.P.

Define unsuccessful.  At least he doesn't claim that OS/2 users avoid the
newsgroups while trying to post to draw attention in the newsgroups.

>
>Why not spend your time helping the OS/2 community by
>updating your site and putting some real meat into those
>many urls you plaster about the newsgroups?

This coming from somebody that regularly attacks OS/2 users in the
newsgroups.

>
>Tim Martin
>The OS/2 Guy
>Warp City
>http://warpcity.com
>"E-ride the wild surf to Warp City!"
>


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From: milindr@bellsouth.net                             01-Sep-99 17:40:12
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 17:47:20
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: milindr@bellsouth.net (Milind Rao)

> Although I loved ColorWorks, I'd never again review an SPG product. 
> I'd have no problem writing about an application from Innoval. They 
> treated their users as well as they could, which is more than one can 
> say for a majority of vendors.

I'll second all of the above.  PRM was a good product.  Whatever it 
id, it did well.  I used it for many years before moving to PMMail 
last year.  Can't complain.  I certainly got my money's worth.  Can't 
say the same at all about SPG.

Regards
Milind

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From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net                            01-Sep-99 18:27:10
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 19:58:09
Subj: Re: MSWolf in sheep's clothing and nothing more.

From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens)

On Wed, 1 Sep 1999 16:14:59, Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com> wrote:

> 
> Some OS/2 users actually like Stardock's products but there
> are those who believe it is crap.

That can be said about just about anything. Do you have numbers that 
say that there are more of the former or of the latter type?

>                                   Stardock R&D development
> monies are now all used to develop applications for the
> Microsoft operating systems.  They have no plans to develop
> anything substantial for OS/2 (other than a game or two of
> which they have stated publicly there is no OS/2 market for).

How do you know that? Can you produce proof that Stardock is only 
developing for the Windows platform? (BTW, what exactly do you 
consider "substantial"? For some people games are the nec plus ultra 
of software)

> For all intents and purposes Stardock no longer supports OS/2
> with new or future software and now only patronize the OS/2
> community to sell off their faded OS/2 offerings.
> 
If you cannot prove your previous statement, than the above one is at 
least incorrect, maybe a lie and probably boarding on libel.

> Rather than play that 'SPG' game they should make a clean
> break, show some style and class ala InnoVal and simply
> release ftheir faded OS/2 software as a freebe to the OS/2 user.
> 
Even if your statement about SDS abandoning OS/2 were true, it would 
still be their call. And there are people here who are not entirely 
happy with giving away an application without the accompanying source:
it effectively makes further development of the application impossible
(no way of getting out the bugs, e.g.).


Karel Jansens
jansens_at_ibm_dot_net
=======================================================
If we could have our cake _and_ eat it,
people would start whining about seconds.
=======================================================

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From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net                            01-Sep-99 18:27:11
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 19:58:09
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito... [rhetorical]

From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens)

On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 11:22:43, tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen) 
wrote:

> Karel Jansens writes:
> 
> 
> > Somehow it's not for me. It's funny, but I really _need_ for some part
> > of my arm or hand to move, or I get completely confused. I tried one 
> > of those subnotebooks once that had like a large trackpoint-like 
> > device positioned next to the screen, sort of like a trackball that 
> > didn't roll. It was a complete disaster. I bought myself a second-hand
> > HP Omnibook 425 with the pop-out mouse and I'm perfectly happy with 
> > that one.
> 
> How long did you try it out?  I was skeptical of the TrackPoint before
> I tried it, and even after using it for a while, still preferred a real
> mouse, but with experience, I came to like it more and more.
> 
Oh, they're okay as a replacement, I guess. Even the little popsickle 
mouse on 
the Omnibook needs some getting used to. I'm still looking for 
something that 
would make both navigating and drawing easy. I'll start saving for 
that screen.

> > OK, not perfectly: it runs Windows 3.1 and Office from a ROM card. But
> > I've been talking to some guys about getting a decent OS to run off 
> > it.
> 
> Must load the system pretty quickly.  Also difficult to apply patches.
> 
Part of the software executes as XIP from ROM, but there are shadow 
system 
directories set up on the C-drive (a whopping 40 megs of PCMCIA 
flash). It has 
some drawbacks (only runs in Standard mode, lousy for DOS apps), but 
Win3.1 
isn't that bad if you're not running any mission critical stuff and 
remember to 
back up often. And Word 2.0 and Excel 4.0 are - dare I say it? - not 
so bad as 
apps go. They don't suffer from bloat and get the job done. As a 
note-taker, 
this baby flies!

> >>>>> I've been seriously contemplating forking out for a touch-screen 
> >>>>> monitor and sink that into my worktop, so that it would only protrude 
> >>>>> a couple of centimeters. Or maybe buy one of those lightpens; I worked
> >>>>> with one that had drivers for Warp and it had a pretty good 
> >>>>> resolution, good enough for serious graphics work (I tried tablets, 
> >>>>> but I loose hand-eye coordination very quickly).
> 
> >>>> I've seen touch screens in retail locations (the Muse at Tower Records,
> >>>> for example).  I find them to not work more often than they do work.
> >>>> And I dislike finger smears on monitor screens.
> 
> >>> I've had some pleasant experiences, but I agree on the finger smudges.
> >>> I'd probably use a pen.
> 
> >> A pen point does offer higher precision than a blunt fingertip.
> 
> > I tried out a 17" touch screen monitor at 1024x768 resolution and I 
> > was very happy. Until the salesguy told me the price...
> 
> More than both arms and both legs?
> 
The phrase "a pound of flesh" did come up on several occasions, but he
wouldn't 
take it.

> >>>>>>>> I also still use the Microsoft FORTRAN compiler when I need to
create a
> >>>>>>>> 16-bit executable for somebody running DOS.  It has some bugs that
were
> >>>>>>>> reported, acknowledged as reproducible by the developers, but never 
fixed,
> >>>>>>>> even after four years.  Microsoft has since discontinued
development of
> >>>>>>>> their FORTRAN compiler, referring customers to Digital (now Compaq)
> >>>>>>>> instead.
> 
> >>>>>>> Sorry, I try not to program, especially not in FORTRAN.
> 
> >>>>>> Still a good choice for number-crunching applications.  You really
> >>>>>> should look into the latest standard, namely Fortran 95, if your
> >>>>>> objections are due to lack of certain features; it may now have them
> >>>>>> (except no RECORD statement; derived types are handled with a TYPE
> >>>>>> statement, something that Fred Emmerich still hasn't learned).
> 
> >>>>> Dave, you don't get it: it's not the features, it's the talent. I've 
> >>>>> found out that I'm as good at programming as Bill Clinton is at 
> >>>>> celibacy.
> 
> >>>> So your remark wasn't specific to FORTRAN, despite the reference to it
> >>>> especially.
> 
> >>> No, I can safely say that I'm equally untalented in just about any 
> >>> programming language. I'm the sort of guy that can mess up a 
> >>> Logo-program.
> 
> >> To be at the mercy of other programmers!
> 
> > I tried.
> > Lordy, did I try!
> 
> Fortran 90 has actually gotten easier to use.  The array syntax makes
> it much more natural to write array expressions, compared to using
> nested DO loops and indices.
> 
> > I have now accepted that I'm just not good at it.
> 
> Then again, if your job doesn't involve the need to write programs,
> you can survive just fine.
> 
> >>>>>>>>> The rough I don't mind, it's the stupid that gets on my nerves.
> 
> >>>>>>>> And you're seeing plenty of it from the so-called "detractors".
> 
> >>>>>>> I'm not taking sides (Hah! as if that's going to be believed!), but 
> >>>>>>> here's a shortlist:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 1. Your opinions are only valid if they coincide with everyone
else's.
> 
> >>>>>> Yes, they do seem to take that position rather frequently.
> 
> >>>>>>> 2. Fights from another geological era need to be continuously raked 
> >>>>>>> up.
> 
> >>>>>> Which "another geological era" are you referring to?
> 
> >>>>> Let's just say "a long time ago" then.
> 
> >>>> In a galaxy far away?
> 
> >>> Heh. Don't we all wish.
> 
> >> Now, let's not start speaking for "we all".
> 
> > All right, "some of us", then.
> 
> Luke, Han, Darth, Obe...
> 
 I don't see them posting often. Is one of them Kelly Robinson?

Karel Jansens
jansens_at_ibm_dot_net
=======================================================
If we could have our cake _and_ eat it,
people would start whining about seconds.
=======================================================

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From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net                            01-Sep-99 18:27:14
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 19:58:09
Subj: Re: Microsoft hates Dolly!

From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens)

On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 11:47:43, ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett) wrote:

> In article <L9BY9tzSDwrQ-pn2-mbPTTlQP4ur4@localhost>,
> jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens) wrote:
> 
> > I came across this at the local Makro supermarket in Belgium. Posters 
> > and leaflet displays with the following message from Microsoft:
> > 
> > (translated from Dutch) "Copying is always wrong!"
> > and a picture of Dolly the cloned sheep.
> > 
> > I think this makes it clear what segment of the population Microsoft 
> > is aiming it's products at.
> > Motto: If you're stoopid, buy Microsoft.
> 
> Interesting, but not as amusing as their reported translation of "Where do
> you want to go today?" into Japanese... supposedly it came out, "If you
> don't know where you want to go today, we'll make sure you get taken."
> 
Makes a lot more sense than the other one...

Karel Jansens
jansens_at_ibm_dot_net
=======================================================
If we could have our cake _and_ eat it,
people would start whining about seconds.
=======================================================

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From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com                               01-Sep-99 11:28:11
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 19:58:09
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste)

On Wed, 1 Sep 1999 11:41:25 -0400, Burt Hemingway recycled some holes into
the following pattern:

>
>Esther Schindler <esther@bitranch.com> wrote in message
>news:LoEFmgJJ9ecw-pn2-QNdFdp6yQsdx@agave.bitranch.com...
>
>> Products have intelligence? You mean, someone perfected artificial
>> intelligence and *didn't tell me*?!
>
>X-----------------snip----------------------X
>
>You are egoistic, isn't it?

Whoosh! RIGHT over your head.

Go turn up your "joke" detector sensitivity a few notches.

--------
Steven C. Den Beste    sdenbes1@san.rr.com
Home page: http://home.san.rr.com/denbeste

"We're just ordinary earthlings, not weirdos from another planet!"
              -- Calvin

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From: cmkrnl@cix.compulink.co.uk                        01-Sep-99 19:59:09
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 19:58:09
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: Greg Hennessy <cmkrnl@cix.compulink.co.uk>

On Tue, 31 Aug 1999 18:40:31 BST, Richard Murray
<no.spam@heyrick.co.uk> wrote:

>Firstly, I quite *LIKE* MSIE5 (which was a great shock to me two weekends
>ago, I can tell you)

Christ! I've wandered into an alternate reality....


greg

 

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From: nospam@pacifier.com                               01-Sep-99 19:30:07
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 19:58:09
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: nospam@pacifier.com

On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 22:45:54 -0400, hobbyist@nospam.net
(=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hobbyist_=A9?=) wrote:

>In response to Matthias Warkus's post :
>
>> It was the Sun, 29 Aug 1999 16:31:20 -0400...
>> ..and nn <nn@nn.nn> wrote:
>> > 
>> > A.Lizard <"alizard[spam]"@ecis.com> wrote in message
>> > 
>> > > In a couple of years, I expect "normal" PCs to be running Linux.
>> > 
>> > MS is a long way from losing the typical OEM desktop market, most users
>> > barely know how to save a file or type in a URL on their computers. Linux
>> > will never be even a remote threat because a typical user cannott and
does
>> > not care to hassle with it. Linux is a pain in the ass to install and
setup,
>> > sorry. The millions of home users who are driving the market would reject 
a
>> > Linux OS on their newly purchased computer instantly.
>> 
>> You're not only trolling, but a lot behind reality. You can get PCs
>> with Linux pre-installed and perfectly set up today (at Red Zac).
>
>Red who?!! <chuckle>
Well lets see who sells them pre-installed, Dell, Compaq, IBM, HP,
want more?
As for killing M$, they'll still be around but Linux is stomping them
in the buisness world.  As for the home user, it will be a couple of
years, but it's getting there.  
>
>Never heard of them.
>
>I think that you need some sobering up yourself.
>
>-- 
>-=Ali=- 

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From: snberk@ibm.net                                    01-Sep-99 10:25:02
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 21:47:10
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: "seth berk" <snberk@ibm.net>

On 31 Aug 1999 21:53:05 GMT, Esther Schindler wrote:

>On Tue, 31 Aug 1999 19:11:04, Murray Weismer <weismer@erols.com> 
>wrote:
>| As OS2 users, I guess we should be gracious to all who will throw us a
>| bone????
>
>As human beings, I think we should do our best to be gracious to 
>everybody.

Hear Hear

[snip snip snip]





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From: nospam@pacifier.com                               01-Sep-99 20:20:10
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 21:47:10
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: nospam@pacifier.com

On Sun, 29 Aug 1999 22:20:59 GMT, monty@nooky.gov (Montgomery Burns)
wrote:

>A.Lizard <"alizard[spam]"@ecis.com> wrote in message
>
>> In a couple of years, I expect "normal" PCs to be running Linux.
>
>Have you ever had to deal with a "normal" user?
>
>Normal user bought a windohs box to be compatiable with what s/he runs at
>work, partly so that the little experience that s/he has with windohs can
>be used at home.
>
>We know how "little" the "normal" user knows about setting up a machine or
>know about the contents of the system folder (no help from MS file naming
>conventions). Normal user knows the back and forward buttons in a browser,
>send button in mailer, and a few things in the wp, and maybe how to chnage
>cell contents in excel.
>
>Normal user running Linux? 
>
>Bawaaaaaah!
>
>MB

Unix was designed with the normal user in mind, they have no control
over the system (unless root gives it to them).  Since Linux is a Unix
clone it's built on the same model.  My 71 year old father was having
a bitch of a time with Window's the last 3 years.  I set him up with
Linux and he loves it.  He's got what he needs, Word Processing,
Spread Sheet, Graphics, Multi-Media, Real Audio, Netscape, etc..  He
used to have to what for me to take time and drive across the state to
fix or install software.  Now I just dial in and do what needs to be
done via telnet.  So much easier to support I don't know why I didn't
do this earlier.

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From: ekadakal@aol.com                                  01-Sep-99 21:15:16
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 21:47:11
Subj: What is IBMNULL print driver for?

From: ekadakal@aol.com (EKadakal)

I have removed all printers from Warp4 printer folder. However when I do Print
Screen from FULL SCREEN applications (DOS or OS/2), it still prints through
the
LPT1 if there is a printer attached. However if no printer is attached, then
it
completely locks up when presses PrintScreen on a DELL Gn Optiplex machine. 

Does anyone have any idea?
 

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From: josco@ibm.net                                     01-Sep-99 14:31:07
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 21:47:11
Subj: Re: Shrink-wrapped Software is Dead

From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net>

In San Francisco Sony has built a large cinema complex in the heart of the
city.  It
also has several display stores and entertainment offerings.  They have a
large wing
dedicated to Playstation and it's games.  They are on display and for trial
use on
state-of-the-art Sony thin pannel display screens.   MS has a store where they
showcase MS products.  This is NOT retail.  A consumer is being motivated to
buy
products.  They can do so on line or retail.  The point is to brand the
consumer
with Sony.

We may se a shift from retail to display/entertainment stores whre a consumer
can
see products and then buy them on-line.  I don't think we'll ever get rid of
the
need to see and touch things.  MS hasn't a equal place for seeing MS PC games
--
Sony's display has them beat hands down.

As for authoring software -- IMHO the majority of software performs services
and
these services are something a company like AT&T wants to provide with a
aggregated
bill -- one stop shoping and billing.  If the apps are not from AT&T then some 
3rd
party will work with AT&Ts infrastructure and provide them to the user (like
cable
has it's packages).  I do not see many small developers servicing a community
of
consumers -- ISPs will get in the way -- like AOL for example.

Rob Hughes wrote:

> Interesting point. Thanks for the post. I've been thinking along similar
> lines for awhile now, but haven't said anything. One possible benefit to
> consumers will be smaller, tighter code since it would seem obvious that
> people aren't going to want to perform lengthy downloads, therefore the
> programs must stay small, or at least modular.
>
> "David T. Johnson" wrote:
>
> > Based on present trends, it looks like future innovative software will
> > be downloaded, not shrink-wrapped, and come from relatively small
> > companies.  OS/2 shrink-wrapped software has been largely gone from
> > retail channels for several years but what is really remarkable is that
> > it looks like Windows shrink-wrapped software is following it out of the
> > door.  Perhaps the day of the multi-thousand-employee software company
> > has passed.
>
>   -----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News
==----------
>    http://www.newsfeeds.com       The Largest Usenet Servers in the World!
> ------== Over 73,000 Newsgroups - Including  Dedicated  Binaries Servers
==-----



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From: weismer@erols.com                                 01-Sep-99 17:35:13
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 21:47:11
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: Murray Weismer <weismer@erols.com>

<weismer@erols.com>
> wrote:
> | As OS2 users, I guess we should be gracious to all who will throw us a
> | bone????
> 
> As human beings, I think we should do our best to be gracious to
> everybody.
> 

I agree 100%



> Murray, perhaps you've been lucky enough to succeed at everything you
> tried. Perhaps, if you failed at your goals, it was only your own life
> that was affected. Some of us aren't this lucky.
> The OS/2 community has had experience with one ISV, SPG, who actively
> abandoned the community, after making implied promises of a new
> product. Other OS/2 ISVs have quietly stopped updating their
> applications, and turned their attention to more remunerative
> platforms. Want a copy of Skyscraper? Lantastic for OS/2? the IBM OS/2
> Funpak? Sorry, you're out of luck. 


Non of the above products asked for money up front for an undeveloped
product. While I admire Dan for many of the positions that he has taken
in the past, I have had a bit of difficulty with his LONG lack of
response to the List that he sponsored. It almost seems like this "gift"
(I think $40, if I recall correctly) was an attempt to repair the PR
damage to himself and Innoval. 

I do appreciate this recent break in silence, and his offering to the
OS2 community, and perhaps he should be applauded for it. As you have
said in different words, he could have done what the author of CuSeeMe
did.

It just seems that collectively, we OS2 users are accepting a second
class status, too often accepting the scraps cast off from the Microsoft
world, instead of demanding quality product and service, and rewarding
those who still do provide it.

Dan Porter had the guts to tell
> people what the company was doing, and why, even if the news wasn't
> what you wanted to hear. And he make the current versions available
> for free, with no strings attached.
-- 
___________________________________________________________
Home of DreckBak OS/2 Disk Backup Utility Suite
http://weismer.virtualave.net/DreckBak.html
_____PLEASE DO BACKUP YOUR DISKS_________________________
IBM BESTTeam - Team OS/2	
RPS.BBS  Phila. Pa (215)624-8960 Adult, Bible, and OS2 related
Hot_Asian_Food: http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Towers/9001
Fix your Plumbing: http://reedps.virtualave.net
MEMBER of P.A.C.S. OS/2-JAVA S.I.G.: http://www.phillyos2.org
------------------------------------------------------------

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From: da728@torfree.net                                 01-Sep-99 20:14:26
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 21:47:11
Subj: Re: Bennett digest, volume 2451352

From: da728@torfree.net (Karl Knechtel)

Hmm let's see what I can contribute to the discussion.

Eric Bennett (ericb@pobox.com) wrote:
: In article <slrn7ng27a.k5i.p@awacs.dhs.org>, ahaakmat@cable.a2000.nl wrote:

: > In article <ericb-2806991915330001@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu>, Eric Bennett 

: > wrote:
: > 
: > >> Don't you know, Eric? 
: > >
: > >Know what, Pascal?  I know many things.
: > 
: > What you know is irrelevant, Eric. 

: Then why did you ask, Pascal?  More evidence of your inconsistency.
:  
: > >> >> >> Typical invective.
: > >> >> >
: > >> >> >Illogical.
: > >> >> 
: > >> >> Evidence, please.
: > >> >
: > >> >Unnecessary.
: > >> 
: > >> Why not?
: > >
: > >Self-evident.
: > 
: > Not at all.

: Not to you.
:  
Incorrect.

: > >> >> >I am sure that I did not snip any evidence, thus I requested
: proof of your
: > >> >> >erroneous and unsubstantiated claim.
: > >> >> 
: > >> >> What alleged "requested proof", Eric?
: > >> >
: > >> >The request in the context which you butchered, Pascal.
: > >> 
What alleged "context", Eric?

: > >> How ironic, coming from someone who routinely tampers with the
: evidence for 
: > >> entertainment purposes.
: > >
: > >What alleged "tampering", Pascal?
: > 
: > The tampering you engage in to satisfy your emotional need to write
insulting
: > articles, Eric.

How ironic, coming from someone who routinely participates in the production
of long irrelevant articles which are insulting and offensive to the NG
in general.

: Non sequitur, as I have no "emotional need to write insulting articles." 
: Typical Haakmat pontification.

Illogical.

: > >> >> >> >> "Swiss cheese."
: > >> >> >> >>    -- Hununnununuh
: > >> >> >> >
: > >> >> >> >Illogical.
: > >> >> >> 
: > >> >> >> Not at all, the constitution of your argument is akin to that of
: > >> >> >> Swiss cheese.
: > >> >> >
Evidence, please?

: > >> >> >Incorrect.
: > >> >> 
: > >> >> Not at all.
: > >> >
: > >> >Incorrect.
: > >> 
: > >> Incorrect.
: > >
Incorrect.

: > >Balderdash.
: > 
Humor is irrelevant.

: > Sounds like you're saying that you argue for the sake of argument. 

: Aren't you certain, Pascal?

: > Not very 
: > productive.

: Evidence, please.

Illogical. The unproductivity of this discussion is self-evident.

: > >> >> >Common sense makes a cameo appearance.
: > >> >> 
: > >> >> Where is this alleged "cameo appearance", Eric?
: > >> >
: > >> >In your recognition, by writing "Irony indeed", of the validity of
: my claim.
: > >> 
: > >> Where did I write that, Eric?
: > >
: > >In the material you snipped, Pascal.
: > > 
Where is this alleged "material", Eric?

: > >> >> >> >What alleged "alleged failure", Pascal?
: > >> >> >> 
What alleged "alleged \"alleged failure\"", Eric?

: > >> >> >> Don't you know, Eric?
: > >> >> >
: > >> >> >No,
: > >> >> 
: > >> >> It figures.
: > >> >
: > >> >What figures, Pascal?
: > >> 
: > >> It figures you wouldn't see what figures.
: > >
: > >Incorrect.
: > 
: > So you have finally figured it out?

: I have figured out that you are incorrect, Pascal.
:  
Balderdash.

: > >> >> >as you have conveniently butchered context again.
: > >> >> 
: > >> >> Typical unsubstantiated and erroneous claim, laced with invective.
: > >> >
Evidence, please.

: > >> >Balderdash.
: > >> 
: > >> Humor is irrelevant, Eric.
: > >
: > >What alleged "Humor"?
: > 
: > See what I mean?

: Illogical.

: > >> >> >> >> >How typical.
: > >> >> >> >> 
: > >> >> >> >> Incorrect.
: > >> >> >> >
: > >> >> >> >Taking posting lessons from David Wang again, Pascal?
: > >> >> >> 
: > >> >> >> On what basis do you make that claim?
: > >> >> >
: > >> >> >On the basis of the similar illogical styles which you both use.
: > >> >> 
: > >> >> You?
: > >> >
: > >> >Illogical.
: > >> 
Incorrect.

: > >> On the contrary, quite logical, as your illogical style is quite
similar to
: > >> that of Dave Wang.
: > >
: > >Incorrect, as Wang typically uses incorrect capitalization skills,
whereas
: > >I do not.
: > 
: > Illogical, given that Dave Wang's capitalization skills are irrelevant to
: > his logic skils.  

Non sequitur, as you implied illogical style *of capitalization*.

: Incorrect.

Incorrect.

: > Why do you have trouble sticking to the issue?

: How ironic, coming from someone who routinely butchers context.

: > >> >> >> >> >Incorrect.
: > >> >> >> >> 
: > >> >> >> >> Incorrect.
: > >> >> >> >
: > >> >> >> >Incorrect.
: > >> >> >> 
: > >> >> >> Incorrect.
: > >> >> >
: > >> >> >Incorrect.
: > >> >> 
: > >> >> Incorrect.
: > >> >
How predictable.

: > >> >What is "Incorrect", Pascal?
: > >> 
: > >> Don't you know, Eric?
: > >
: > >I see you failed to answer the question.  
: > 
: > "He sees??!?!"
: >     -- T'chak

Don't you know, Pascal?

: Irrelevant.

: > >How predictable.
: > 
: > You?

: What alleged "You", Pascal?

How ironic, coming from "you".

: > >> >> >> >> >Proof is relevant and necessary when you make an
: > >> >> >> >> >unsubstantiated claim such as your above statement,
"Incorrect."
: > >> >> >> >> 
: > >> >> >> >> Of course, it takes decent reading skills to recognize that
: my above
: > >> >> >> >> statement was duly substantiated previously.
: > >> >> >> >
: > >> >> >> >Incorrect, as there was no substantiation.
: > >> >> >> 
: > >> >> >> Incorrect, you are just unable to identify it.
: > >> >> >
: > >> >> >Incorrect.
: > >> >> 
: > >> >> Incorrect.
: > >> >
: > >> >Incorrect.
: > >> 
: > >> Incorrect.
: > >
How predictable.

: > >How ironic.
: > 
Incorrect.

: > Glad to see you recognize the irony.

Reading comprehension problems?

: Predictable Pascal pontification, laced with invective.

: > >> >> >Of course, it takes decent reading comprehension skills to
: > >> >> >recognize that.
: > >> >> 
: > >> >> What alleged "course", Eric?
: > >> >
: > >> >Reading comprehension problems, Pascal?
: > >> 
: > >> What alleged "course", Eric?  Don't you know?
: > >
: > >Reading comprehension problems, Pascal?  
: > 
: > Not at all, Eric.

Incorrect.

: On the contrary, the facts show otherwise.
:  
: > >I see you failed to answer the question.
: > 
: > How ironic, coming from someone who failed to answer the question.

: Incorrect.  You simply failed to comprehend the answer.
:  
How ironic.

: > >> >> >> >> >> >> as you had already demonstrated your inability to
understand
: > >> >> >> >> >> >> that the evidence has been tampered with.
: > >> >> >> >> >> >
: > >> >> >> >> >> >Typical invective.
: > >> >> >> >> >>
: > >> >> >> >> >> Incorrect.
: > >> >> >> >> >
: > >> >> >> >> >Taking posting lessons from Haakmat again, Pascal?
: > >> >> >> >> 
: > >> >> >> >> Non sequitur.
: > >> >> >> >
: > >> >> >> >See what I mean?
: > >> >> >> 
: > >> >> >> Non sequitur.
: > >> >> >
: > >> >> >See what I mean?

How predictable.
: > >> >> 
: > >> >> That's your problem.
: > >> >
: > >> >See what I mean?
: > >> 
: > >> What you mean is irrelevant, as you post solely for entertainment
purposes,
: > >> by your own admission.
: > >
Typical invective.

: > >Incorrect.  Taking posting lessons from Jeff Glatt again, Pascal?
: > 
: > Impossible.  

: Why?

Evidence, please.

: > That would be you, Eric.

: Incorrect.

: > >> >> >What you are trying to get me to acknowledge is not relevant.  
: > >> >> 
: > >> >> It figures you do not think the truth is relevant, 
: > >> >
: > >> >What alleged "truth", Pascal?
: > >> 
: > >> It figures you have to ask, Eric.
: > >
: > >On the contrary, it figures that you failed to answer the question.
: > 
What alleged "question", Eric?

: > You must first comprehend the basis.

: I comprehend the basis of my question.  Meanwhile, where is your answer to
: the question?
:  
Incorrect.

: > >> >> coming from someone who
: > >> >> posts solely for entertainment purposes, by his own admission.
: > >> >
: > >> >Who is this "someone", Pascal?
: > >> 
: > >> You?
: > >
Typical invective.

: > >I see you failed to provide a logical answer to the question.  
: > 
: > On the contrary, given that you are someone.

: I am not "this someone".

Balderdash.

: > >How predictable.
: > 
: > How how is "how", Eric?

: A semantic argument.  How predictable.

How ironic.

: > >> >> >What you can prove is relevant.
: > >> >> 
: > >> >> Yes.
: > >> >
: > >> >Common sense makes a cameo appearance.
: > >> 
: > >> What alleged "a", Eric?
: > >
: > >The article.
: > 
: > What alleged "article", Eric?  

: A semantic argument.  How predictable.
:  
: > >> >> >> >How typical.
: > >> >> >> 
How ironic, considering the appropriateness to the above.

: > >> >> >> Incorrect.
: > >> >> >
: > >> >> >What is incorrect is not relevant.  
: > >> >> 
Incorrect. Otherwise this discussion would have ended several dozen posts 
ago.

: > >> >> Common sense makes cameo appearance.
: > >> >
: > >> >Incorrect.
: > >> 
: > >> What is incorrect is not relevant.
: > >
How predictable.

: > >Evidence, please.
: > 
: > Unnecessary.

: On the contrary.

Incorrect.

: > >> >> >What you can prove is relevant.
: > >> >> 
: > >> >> Unnecessary, as you post solely for entertainment purposes.
: > >> >
: > >> >Incorrect.  I post to correct FUD.
: > >> 
: > >> Incorrect.
: > >
: > >On the contrary.
: > 
: > How ironic, coming from someone who writes:
: >
: > >Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect,
: > >even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law.

Irrelevant.

: Incorrect.  Hofstadter wrote that, Pascal.  Having reading comprehension
: problems again?

A semantic argument. How predictable.

: -- 
: Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
: Department of Chemistry & Chemical Biology, Cornell University

: Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect,
: even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law.

What alleged "Hofstadter", Eric?
Typical pontification, laced with invective.

(whee what was fun!)
Karl Knechtel {:-#>
da728 at torfree dot net

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From: da728@torfree.net                                 01-Sep-99 20:29:09
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 21:47:11
Subj: Re: Bennett digest, volume 2451352

From: da728@torfree.net (Karl Knechtel)

David T. Wang (davewang@wam.umd.edu@club_HYK@Glue.umd.edu) wrote:
: Dave Tholen (tholenantispam@hawaii.edu) wrote:
: : David T. Wang writes:

: : >>>>>>>> David T. Wang writes [to Pascal Haakmat]:

: : >>>>>>>>> Illogical, as I have not been following posting lessons from
Dave Tholen.

: : >>>>>>>> There haven't been any posting lessons from me.

: : >>>>>>> Jumping into discussions again, Dave?

: : >>>>>> Obviously not, given that you brought me up.

: : >>>>> You were not discussed, Dave,

: : >>>> Incorrect; see above.

: : >>> Incorrect.

: : >> Why lie about it?

: : > What alleged "lie", Dave?

: : Where you wrote "incorrect", which is definitely not alleged.

: Context, Dave.  You're not the only "Dave Tholen" in this world, and 
: you, as a person, was not discussed in any manner.  Therefore, Incorrect.

Evidence, please.

: : >>>>> the alleged posting lessons were discussed.

: : >>>> From whom?  Me.  Thus I was discussed.

: : >>> One, the lecturers of the posting lessons is not relevant here.

: : > Note: Massive cutting by Mr. Tholen changes the context of the
discussion.

: : Impossible, given that I didn't cut anything from the body of the text.

: Incorrect.

Irrelevant. There is no claim of the context of the discussion being changed.

: You don't have to cut anything from the body of the text to change the 
: context, Dave.  Don't you know that?  Have you been taking text cutting
: lessons from Eric "the butcher" Bennett?

How ironic, coming from someone who is incapable of editing these long posts.

: As an example, Eric "the butcher" Bennett recently did this butchering 
: job where the original posting was "non sequitur."  He cut the phrase
: in two, and responded to each part separately.  Do you see now how 
: cutting text changes context?

Incorrect.

: : >> Doesn't change the fact that I was discussed.

: : > How can you be sure that you're the "Dave Tholen" mentioned above?

: : Context.

: The world doesn't revolve around you, Dave.

Evidence, please.

: : > Are you the only "Dave Tholen" in the world?

: : Irrelevant, given that none of the others apply to this context.

: Evidence, please.

Not necessary. No other "Dave Tholen"s post to comp.sys.mac.advocacy and
therefore no others are available to fill the decribed role of giving 
posting lessons.

: : >>> Two, you denied that you ever provided posting lessons. 

A semantic argument. How typical. To take lessons in the sense used in the
original post does not require them to be provided explicitly.

: : >> Doesn't change the fact that I was discussed.

: : > How can you be sure that you're the "Dave Tholen" mentioned above?

: : Context.

: The world doesn't revolve around you, Dave.

How predictable.

: : > Are you the only "Dave Tholen" in the world?

Don't you know?

: : Irrelevant, given that none of the others apply to this context.

: The world doesn't revolve around you, Dave.

Been having fun with cut-and-paste again?

: : >>> Hence, your response is illogical,

: : >> Incorrect.

: : > Incorrect.

: : Balderdash.

Humor is irrelevant.

: : > See above and below.

What alleged "above"?

: : That won't change the fact that you are incorrect.

: Prove it, if you think you can.

: : >>> since you didn't provide any posting lessons,

See above.

: : >> Doesn't change the fact that I was discussed.

: : > How can you be sure that you're the "Dave Tholen" mentioned above?

: : Context.

: The world doesn't revolve around you, Dave.

Having fun with cut-and-paste again?

: : > Are you the only "Dave Tholen" in the world?

: : Irrelevant, given that none of the others apply to this context.

: The world doesn't revolve around you, Dave.

Having fun with cut-and-paste again?

: : >>> how can you admit that the alleged posting lessons were from you?

: : >> Doesn't change the fact that I was discussed.

: : > How can you be sure that you're the "Dave Tholen" mentioned above?

: : Context.

: The world doesn't revolve around you, Dave.

Having fun with cut-and-paste again?

: : > Are you the only "Dave Tholen" in the world?

: : Irrelevant, given that none of the others apply to this context.

: The world doesn't revolve around you, Dave.

Having fun with cut-and-paste again?

: --
: main(){while(1){switch(rand()%7){case 0:printf("Illogical.\n");break;case 1:
: printf("Balderdash.\n");break;case 2:printf("Non sequitur.\n");break;case 3:
: printf("Incorrect.\n");break;case 4: printf("See what I mean\?\n");break;
: case 5:printf("Irrelevant.\n");break;case 6:printf("Poppycock\n");break;}}}

Irrelevant, incorrect balderdash. Non sequitur. Typical C-language 
pontification, laced with typical C invective. How ironic. See what I mean?

Karl Knechtel {:-#>
da728 at torfree dot net

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From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               01-Sep-99 18:10:04
  To: All                                               01-Sep-99 21:47:11
Subj: Re: MSWolf in sheep's clothing and nothing more.

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Tim Martin wrote:
> 
> "J.P. Pasnak" wrote:
> 
> > The countless hours spent maintaining the support for 5000 subscribes
> > to Warp City ...
> 
> We're way beyond that figure now.  I cleared out the waiting
> list by handing out free access accounts for the rest of the
> year.  In July alone I added another 1,000 members.

Still want to blame Stardock for launching an ad compaign here?  Hypocrite.
 
> > 'Your software is crap, give it to me for free' ...
> 
> Some OS/2 users actually like Stardock's products but there
> are those who believe it is crap.

Some people actually like Warp City but there are those who believe it is
crap.  What is your point?

> Stardock R&D development
> monies are now all used to develop applications for the
> Microsoft operating systems.

I didn't know you had access to such confidential company information. 
Perhaps a lawsuit is in order if you do.

> They have no plans to develop
> anything substantial for OS/2 (other than a game or two of
> which they have stated publicly there is no OS/2 market for).
> For all intents and purposes Stardock no longer supports OS/2
> with new or future software and now only patronize the OS/2
> community to sell off their faded OS/2 offerings.

They're releasing new titles Tim -- for OS/2 no less.  Their windoze
development is being used to fund their (almost detrimental) OS/2
development.  Brad and Kris have stated this many times in the past.

> Rather than play that 'SPG' game they should make a clean
> break, show some style and class ala InnoVal and simply
> release ftheir faded OS/2 software as a freebe to the OS/2 user.

So they should stop all production on their new OS/2 software titles and
give them away for free?  This way, no future work is put into these titles
on the OS/2 platform.  You're suggesting to kill more OS/2 apps just so
parasites can get some more free titles?  That doesn't sound like advocacy.

> > would not allow him to post more moronic articles.
> 
> As an OS/2 web master I'm proud of our success

Spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spamly spam, wonderful spam.

> but I'm
> not surprised by the public attacks and useless harassment
> by those OS/2 web masters who have been unsuccessful,
> such as yourself J.P.

Do I sense jealousy Tim?
 
> Why not spend your time helping the OS/2 community by
> updating your site and putting some real meat into those
> many urls you plaster about the newsgroups?

And why not help the OS/2 community yourself, but not encouraging people to
become parasites, demanding applications for free?  If Stardock gives away
their OS/2 software for free, then there's absolutely no motivation to
continue development, hence the titles will be killed altogether.

- Marty

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From: tim.timmins@bcs.org.uk                            02-Sep-99 00:22:23
  To: All                                               02-Sep-99 06:34:29
Subj: Re: Java continues to splinter

From: Tim Timmins <tim.timmins@bcs.org.uk>

I meant I did not expect (anything) from Malloy

Dave Tholen wrote:

> Tim Timmins writes:
>
> >>> Joe Malloy wrote:
>
> >>>> I tholened:
>
> >>>>> Steven Den Beste wrote:
>
> >>>>>> Since OS/2 users are relying on portable Java as their last remaining
> >>>>>> hope of mainstream commercial apps in volume, this is relevant to
OS/2's
> >>>>>> outlook.
>
> >>>>> On what basis do you claim to know on what OS/2 users are relying,
> >>>>> Steven?
>
> >>>> On what basis do you claim not to know on what Os/2 users are relying,
> >>>> Tholen?
>
> >>> Your reply makes sense. Not.
>
> >> What did you expect from Malloy?
>
> > No.
>
> Why would you expect a "no" from Malloy?

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From: tim.timmins@bcs.org.uk                            02-Sep-99 00:24:12
  To: All                                               02-Sep-99 06:34:29
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: Tim Timmins <tim.timmins@bcs.org.uk>

Get Netscape.

Baden Kudrenecky wrote:

> In <37C8BBE3.90229050@WarpCity.com>, Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com>
writes:
> >Baden Kudrenecky wrote:
>
> >the second message from Dan Porter regarding the  "J Street Mailer
> >Initiative".  Warp City has been running exclusive JSM information, files
> >and upgrades offered by Samatra Software (Paul vanKeep and now
> >Mike Bowler) to Warp City members, many of whom use JSM.  Dan
> >may have submitted it to us (Warp City) because he feels confident
> >we will report his feelings, public statements and support of the
> >the newly created JSM Initiative.  InnoVal has every right on earth
> >to be proud as punch of JSM.  It is the finest 100% Java emailer
> >program on the market today.  Emerald Mail, MailPuccini and the
> >other entries have yet to equal the quality and features of JSM.
> >
> >Paul vanKeep and Mike Bowler have stepped forward to devote
> >their personal time and extraordinary Java programming skills
> >to ensure J Street Mailer stays 'out front' in the Java Emailer
> >category.  They have released a flurry of upgrades over the
> >last few weeks and are improving JSM with each release.  Another
> >release is expected any day now (PVK8).  A long list of new features
> >and bug fixes have been released.  Paul and Mike intend on improving
> >the quality of JSM beyond its current high quality state.  Their time,
> >efforts and exemplary work have all been offered for free because of
> >their admiration for the fine J Street Mailer.  JSM runs on Linux,
> >Windows95/98/NT, Mac and especially well on OS/2.   One program
> >that runs under all operating systems.  It is an amazing piece of
> >work created by InnoVal.
>
>    Where can obtain the JStreet updates, as there was not on
> Innoval's site, even before they ditched everything?
>
>    I am currently looking for a new mail program to replace
> UltiMail, and I am testing PMMail, JStreet, and now Post Road,
> and the only program that even comes close to my acceptability,
> is JStreet, however, it's memory footprint is huge, and that may
> preclude me from using it, and besides, I would like to actually
> support native OS/2 software.
>
> baden
>
> baden@unixg.ubc.ca
> http://baden.nu/
> OS/2, Solaris & Linux

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tim.timmins@bcs.org.uk                            02-Sep-99 00:26:01
  To: All                                               02-Sep-99 06:34:29
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: Tim Timmins <tim.timmins@bcs.org.uk>

Take note. You might learn something.

Esther Schindler wrote:

> On Sun, 29 Aug 1999 20:24:10, possum@fred.net (Mike Trettel) wrote:
> | A very good question.  However, we all should compliment Dan Porter for
> | not only stellar efforts over the past few years in providing all of us
> | with good OS/2 software (I have a registered copy of PostRoad 2.5,
> | which I suppose will now get upgraded to 3.0), but for also doing a
> | very nice thing when he decided it was time to bail out.  It's bad news
> | in one sense, but at least he did it nicely.
>
> I agree wholeheartedly, Mike. It's always nice to see someone behave
> with such class!
>
> --Esther

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From: hobbyist@nospam.net                               01-Sep-99 19:08:27
  To: All                                               02-Sep-99 06:35:00
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hobbyist_=A9?= <hobbyist@nospam.net>

In response to nospam@pacifier.com's post :


> >> You're not only trolling, but a lot behind reality. You can get PCs
> >> with Linux pre-installed and perfectly set up today (at Red Zac).
> >
> >Red who?!! <chuckle>
> Well lets see who sells them pre-installed, Dell, Compaq, IBM, HP,
> want more?

<huge yawn>
Uhm, really? Shrug.

> As for killing M$, they'll still be around but Linux is stomping them
> in the buisness world.  As for the home user, it will be a couple of
> years, but it's getting there.  

Couple years? Hmmm. Add about 3 more years to that and I may
start looking in your direction. :)

-- 
-=Ali=- 

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: hobbyist@nospam.net                               01-Sep-99 19:20:12
  To: All                                               02-Sep-99 06:35:00
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hobbyist_=A9?= <hobbyist@nospam.net>

In response to nospam@pacifier.com's post :

> >We know how "little" the "normal" user knows about setting up a machine or
> >know about the contents of the system folder (no help from MS file naming
> >conventions). Normal user knows the back and forward buttons in a browser,
> >send button in mailer, and a few things in the wp, and maybe how to chnage
> >cell contents in excel.
> >
> >Normal user running Linux? 
> >
> >Bawaaaaaah!
> >
> >MB
> 
> Unix was designed with the normal user in mind, they have no control
> over the system (unless root gives it to them).  Since Linux is a Unix
> clone it's built on the same model.  My 71 year old father was having
> a bitch of a time with Window's the last 3 years.  I set him up with
> Linux and he loves it.  He's got what he needs, Word Processing,
> Spread Sheet, Graphics, Multi-Media, Real Audio, Netscape, etc..  He
> used to have to what for me to take time and drive across the state to
> fix or install software.  Now I just dial in and do what needs to be
> done via telnet.  So much easier to support I don't know why I didn't
> do this earlier.

Stick a pin there. The reason why your father has no problems now
is because you can telnet and fix the problems instead of his
having to wait until you drive over to fix the problem. 

Over on the commercial side of things, I don't have to drive
anywhere to help my Dad with his windows system. We both have a
copy of PC Anywhere installed. I simply dialin on his machine and
take over control. He can watch and see exactly what I'm doing as
well. He is hunky dory just as your Dad is at present. I don't
have to drive 60 miles to fix things for him either.

-- 
-=Ali=- 

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From: mrowley.NOSPam@cfl.rr.com                         02-Sep-99 00:59:28
  To: All                                               02-Sep-99 06:35:00
Subj: Re: Here's a lob, smack the hell out of it...

From: "Michael A Rowley" <mrowley.NOSPam@cfl.rr.com>

On 31 Aug 1999 18:18:10 GMT, John Patrick Lestrade wrote:

>I look on an OS as I do a pais of shoes. I need them to get a job done. If
Nike is
>better than Adidas, I will switch to NIke. I will not stick with Adidas and
taunt
>the nike wearers. :)
>
>SO, my question, to the cognocenti out there. What is currently the "best"
solution
>for a stable compatible operating system (this is the lob mentioned in the
>header.)?
>
>Will there be an update to OS/2 that is MORE compatible with windows? Is that 
puppy
>dead and buried?
>
>Is linux going to supplant os/2 as the windows beater? What;s a user to do?
>
>regards,
>Patrick

Only time will tell Patrick.  OS2 kicks Window's butt as far as stability, and 
neither have had a real upgrade in 3 years...  No I 
don't consider Windows 98 and upgrade, get real bill...  Linux is nice,
stable, and getting more support.  I will continue to use 
OS2 though.

I have always liked Nike's... :)

Michael.


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu                01-Sep-99 23:17:18
  To: All                                               02-Sep-99 06:35:00
Subj: Re: Bennett digest, volume 2451352

From: tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu (tholenbot)

In article <FHEDKs.219.0.queen@torfree.net>, da728@torfree.net (Karl
Knechtel) wrote:

> Hmm let's see what I can contribute to the discussion.

Jumping into the discussion, Karl?  How irrelevant.

 
> Eric Bennett (ericb@pobox.com) wrote:
> : In article <slrn7ng27a.k5i.p@awacs.dhs.org>, ahaakmat@cable.a2000.nl
wrote:
> 
> : > In article <ericb-2806991915330001@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu>, Eric
Bennett 
> : > wrote:
> : > 
> : > >> Don't you know, Eric? 
> : > >
> : > >Know what, Pascal?  I know many things.
> : > 
> : > What you know is irrelevant, Eric. 
> 
> : Then why did you ask, Pascal?  More evidence of your inconsistency.
> :  
> : > >> >> >> Typical invective.
> : > >> >> >
> : > >> >> >Illogical.
> : > >> >> 
> : > >> >> Evidence, please.
> : > >> >
> : > >> >Unnecessary.
> : > >> 
> : > >> Why not?
> : > >
> : > >Self-evident.
> : > 
> : > Not at all.
> 
> : Not to you.
> :  
> Incorrect.

Not at all.

> : > >> >> >I am sure that I did not snip any evidence, thus I requested
> : proof of your
> : > >> >> >erroneous and unsubstantiated claim.
> : > >> >> 
> : > >> >> What alleged "requested proof", Eric?
> : > >> >
> : > >> >The request in the context which you butchered, Pascal.
> : > >> 
> What alleged "context", Eric?

How ironic, coming from someone who just jumped into the middle of the
discussion.
 
> : > >> How ironic, coming from someone who routinely tampers with the
> : evidence for 
> : > >> entertainment purposes.
> : > >
> : > >What alleged "tampering", Pascal?
> : > 
> : > The tampering you engage in to satisfy your emotional need to write
insulting
> : > articles, Eric.
> 
> How ironic, coming from someone who routinely participates in the production
> of long irrelevant articles which are insulting and offensive to the NG
> in general.

Common sense makes a cameo appearance.
 
> : Non sequitur, as I have no "emotional need to write insulting articles." 
> : Typical Haakmat pontification.
> 
> Illogical.

Incorrect.
 
> : > >> >> >> >> "Swiss cheese."
> : > >> >> >> >>    -- Hununnununuh
> : > >> >> >> >
> : > >> >> >> >Illogical.
> : > >> >> >> 
> : > >> >> >> Not at all, the constitution of your argument is akin to that
of
> : > >> >> >> Swiss cheese.
> : > >> >> >
> Evidence, please?
> 
> : > >> >> >Incorrect.
> : > >> >> 
> : > >> >> Not at all.
> : > >> >
> : > >> >Incorrect.
> : > >> 
> : > >> Incorrect.
> : > >
> Incorrect.

Prove it, Karl.

> : > >Balderdash.
> : > 
> Humor is irrelevant.

Irrelevant non-sequitur.
 
> : > Sounds like you're saying that you argue for the sake of argument. 
> 
> : Aren't you certain, Pascal?
> 
> : > Not very 
> : > productive.
> 
> : Evidence, please.
> 
> Illogical. The unproductivity of this discussion is self-evident.

Argument by assertion again, Karl?  Ineffective.

> : > >> >> >Common sense makes a cameo appearance.
> : > >> >> 
> : > >> >> Where is this alleged "cameo appearance", Eric?
> : > >> >
> : > >> >In your recognition, by writing "Irony indeed", of the validity of
> : my claim.
> : > >> 
> : > >> Where did I write that, Eric?
> : > >
> : > >In the material you snipped, Pascal.
> : > > 
> Where is this alleged "material", Eric?

How ironic, given that you snipped material.  Taking snipping lessons from
Pascal Haakmat, Karl?

> : > >> >> >> >What alleged "alleged failure", Pascal?
> : > >> >> >> 
> What alleged "alleged \"alleged failure\"", Eric?

Reading comprehension problems, Karl?
 
> : > >> >> >> Don't you know, Eric?
> : > >> >> >
> : > >> >> >No,
> : > >> >> 
> : > >> >> It figures.
> : > >> >
> : > >> >What figures, Pascal?
> : > >> 
> : > >> It figures you wouldn't see what figures.
> : > >
> : > >Incorrect.
> : > 
> : > So you have finally figured it out?
> 
> : I have figured out that you are incorrect, Pascal.
> :  
> Balderdash.

Typical unsubstantiated and erroneous claim.
 
> : > >> >> >as you have conveniently butchered context again.
> : > >> >> 
> : > >> >> Typical unsubstantiated and erroneous claim, laced with invective.
> : > >> >
> Evidence, please.

Self-evident.  Of course, it takes decent reading comprehension skills to
recognize that fact.

> : > >> >Balderdash.
> : > >> 
> : > >> Humor is irrelevant, Eric.
> : > >
> : > >What alleged "Humor"?
> : > 
> : > See what I mean?
> 
> : Illogical.

Note: no response.

> : > >> >> >> >> >How typical.
> : > >> >> >> >> 
> : > >> >> >> >> Incorrect.
> : > >> >> >> >
> : > >> >> >> >Taking posting lessons from David Wang again, Pascal?
> : > >> >> >> 
> : > >> >> >> On what basis do you make that claim?
> : > >> >> >
> : > >> >> >On the basis of the similar illogical styles which you both use.
> : > >> >> 
> : > >> >> You?
> : > >> >
> : > >> >Illogical.
> : > >> 
> Incorrect.

On what basis do you make this claim?
 
> Incorrect.

Truth by proclamation again, Karl?  How predictable.
 
> : > Why do you have trouble sticking to the issue?
> 
> : How ironic, coming from someone who routinely butchers context.

Note: no response.

> : > >> >> >> >> >Incorrect.
> : > >> >> >> >> 
> : > >> >> >> >> Incorrect.
> : > >> >> >> >
> : > >> >> >> >Incorrect.
> : > >> >> >> 
> : > >> >> >> Incorrect.
> : > >> >> >
> : > >> >> >Incorrect.
> : > >> >> 
> : > >> >> Incorrect.
> : > >> >
> How predictable.

What is predictable is not relevant.  What you can prove is relevant.

> : > >How predictable.
> : > 
> : > You?
> 
> : What alleged "You", Pascal?
> 
> How ironic, coming from "you".

Illogical.

> : > >> >> >> >> >Proof is relevant and necessary when you make an
> : > >> >> >> >> >unsubstantiated claim such as your above statement,
"Incorrect."
> : > >> >> >> >> 
> : > >> >> >> >> Of course, it takes decent reading skills to recognize that
> : my above
> : > >> >> >> >> statement was duly substantiated previously.
> : > >> >> >> >
> : > >> >> >> >Incorrect, as there was no substantiation.
> : > >> >> >> 
> : > >> >> >> Incorrect, you are just unable to identify it.
> : > >> >> >
> : > >> >> >Incorrect.
> : > >> >> 
> : > >> >> Incorrect.
> : > >> >
> : > >> >Incorrect.
> : > >> 
> : > >> Incorrect.
> : > >
> How predictable.

What is predictable is not relevant.  What you can prove is relevant.
 
> : > >How ironic.
> : > 
> Incorrect.

How predictable.


> : On the contrary, the facts show otherwise.
> :  
> : > >I see you failed to answer the question.
> : > 
> : > How ironic, coming from someone who failed to answer the question.
> 
> : Incorrect.  You simply failed to comprehend the answer.
> :  
> How ironic.

Taking posting lessons from Jeff Glatt?
 
> How predictable.

What is predictable is not relevant.  What you can prove is relevant.

> : > >> >> 
> : > >> >> That's your problem.
> : > >> >
> : > >> >See what I mean?
> : > >> 
> : > >> What you mean is irrelevant, as you post solely for entertainment
purposes,
> : > >> by your own admission.
> : > >
> Typical invective.
> 
> : > >Incorrect.  Taking posting lessons from Jeff Glatt again, Pascal?
> : > 
> : > Impossible.  
> 
> : Why?
> 
> Evidence, please.

Non sequitur.  Meanwhile, you fail to answer the question.  Taking failure
to answer question lessons from Jeremy "Master of Failure to Answer
Questions" Reimer, Karl?

> : > >> >What alleged "truth", Pascal?
> : > >> 
> : > >> It figures you have to ask, Eric.
> : > >
> : > >On the contrary, it figures that you failed to answer the question.
> : > 
> What alleged "question", Eric?

Open your eyes, Karl.

> : > You must first comprehend the basis.
> 
> : I comprehend the basis of my question.  Meanwhile, where is your answer to
> : the question?
> :  
> Incorrect.

Incorrect.
 
> : > >I see you failed to provide a logical answer to the question.  
> : > 
> : > On the contrary, given that you are someone.
> 
> : I am not "this someone".
> 
> Balderdash.

Prove it, if you think you can.

> : > >How predictable.
> : > 
> : > How how is "how", Eric?
> 
> : A semantic argument.  How predictable.
> 
> How ironic.

Illogical.

> Incorrect. Otherwise this discussion would have ended several dozen posts 
> ago.

What this discussion would have done is not relevant.  What you can prove
is relevant.

> : > >Evidence, please.
> : > 
> : > Unnecessary.
> 
> : On the contrary.
> 
> Incorrect.

You simply fail to comprehend why it is correct.

> : > >> >> >What you can prove is relevant.
> : > >> >> 
> : > >> >> Unnecessary, as you post solely for entertainment purposes.
> : > >> >
> : > >> >Incorrect.  I post to correct FUD.
> : > >> 
> : > >> Incorrect.
> : > >
> : > >On the contrary.
> : > 
> : > How ironic, coming from someone who writes:
> : >
> : > >Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect,
> : > >even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law.
> 
> Irrelevant.

On what basis do you make this erroneous claim?
 
> : Incorrect.  Hofstadter wrote that, Pascal.  Having reading comprehension
> : problems again?
> 
> A semantic argument. 

Where?

> How predictable.

Irrelevant.

> : -- 
> : Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
> : Department of Chemistry & Chemical Biology, Cornell University
> 
> : Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect,
> : even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law.
> 
> What alleged "Hofstadter", Eric?

Don't you know, Karl?

> Typical pontification, laced with invective.

What alleged "pontification", Karl?  What alleged "invective"?
 
> (whee what was fun!)

Posting for entertainment purposes, Karl?  How predictable.

> Karl Knechtel 

Unnecessary.

> {:-#>

Illogical.

> da728 at torfree dot net

Irrelevant.

-- 
I do not "approve" phrases.
-Dave Tholen

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From: ericb@pobox.com                                   01-Sep-99 23:32:02
  To: All                                               02-Sep-99 06:35:00
Subj: Re: Advocacy's Mosquito...

From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)

In article <M3mPvLdzxX1t-pn2-bNDqYIZwH0H9@localhost>, rjf@yyycomasia.com
(rj friedman) wrote:

> On Tue, 31 Aug 1999 15:32:05, ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
> wrote:
> 
> ÆBut it is logical to extend what you know about people in general to the
> Æcurrent specific situation.  When you rent a car, do you read the manual
> Æfirst to make sure the accelerator is the pedal on the right, or do you
> Æassume--logically from past experience--that the probability of the
> Æaccelerator being on the right is so high that you'd be wasting your time
> Æto check?
> 
> Actually this argument enforces my position, rather than 
> detracts from it because in the case of the accelerator's 
> position you are dealing with a `mechanical interface'; one 
> that has been standardized for approximately 100 yrs. So, on
> the one hand, we (again - as in the previous argument wrt 
> Sutherland and Glatt) have lots of prior information and 
> experience. Information that we don't have about the 
> neighbors.

We do have info about how people often behave.  It's not a strong but we
can still draw conclusions from it.

> Extending what I know about people in general (based on more
> decades of experience than I care to admit), is that given 
> sufficient conditions, there is no position so ludicrous 
> that they won't be prepared to defend it with their lives, 
> nor is there any behavior too vile for them to scruple at 
> engaging in.

But how likely are the sufficient conditions?

> ÆI suppose that would depend on what percentage of the population you trust
> Æto make such judgements, since that affects the probability that Bob will
> Æunfairly be judged a "jerk" by a very large fraction of his neighbors.
> 
> Your point isn't taking motivation into account. It is 
> assuming that Bob's neighbor's are judging him honestly and 
> fairly. That's not a logical assumption, and I am not 
> prepared to make it.

It's assuming that increasingly larger numbers of people have no reason
not to judge him fairly.

> 2) the movie "12 Angry Men" - 
> where 11 of the jurors - each with his own motive - wanted 
> to convict immediately. In the beginning the eleven felt the
> lone holdout was a `jerk' for not going along.
> 
> If you were to walk into a meeting of the eleven, they would
> tell you that the holdout was a jerk. Why? Not because he 
> actually was a jerk - but because he was opposing their (as 
> it turns out) illogical desire to convict immediately.

Sure.  I'm arguing probabilities.  Sometimes when you pick the most
probable result you will still be wrong.

> And "largeness of group" does not automatically produce 
> better judgement (I refer you to your own tagline as a 
> rebuttal of that argument - see below).

I think it increases the likelihood of a better judgement up to a point,
assuming the groups are selected randomly.

> -------- your tagline coming up:
> 
> ÆIf you surveyed a hundred typical middle-aged Americans, I bet you'd
> Æfind that only two of them could tell you their blood type, but every
> Ælast one of them would know the theme song from The Beverly
> ÆHillbillies.  -Dave Barry
> 
> With that, I rest my case about the logical validity 
> (invalidity!) of coming to conclusions solely on the basis 
> of what your neighbors think.  :-)

But at least they aren't going to *lie* about knowing their blood type! 
This discussion started off with the question of hidden motives.  I don't
see any hidden motives here.  I'm just saying I think it's less likely
that you can find a group of 50 people with hidden motives as compared to
how easy it would be to find a group of 10 people with hidden motives.  

If I run across a group of 50 people that dislikes person B and only a
group of 10 that dislikes person A then I think it is more probable that
person B is justifiably dislikable.   Sometimes that will turn out to be
wrong, but until I have the information to be sure it's something I'll
consider.

-- 
Eric Bennett ( http://www.pobox.com/~ericb/ ) 
Cornell University / Chemistry & Chemical Biology

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From: dpeterso@halcyon.com                              01-Sep-99 21:13:02
  To: All                                               02-Sep-99 06:35:00
Subj: Re: Sun to proliferate Star Office...

From: Dennis Peterson <dpeterso@halcyon.com>


JM wrote:
> 
[whack]

> The real reason why Star Office still has no chance against Office, is
> because coporations have standardized on Office.  They are more then
> willing to buy their MS Office volume discount to get their standards.

And those standards reduce simply to file format and the user interface.
If staroffice properly and adequately clones those two features, MS
office is just an expensive white elephant. So far, that is true.

MS isn't going to sit still, though. I expect there will be office 2000,
Office 2000.25, office 2000.5, etc., in an endless game to send the
staroffice coders off on a filter/feature catch-up race. It would not
come as a big surprise to me to learn that MS already has the next
half-dozen versions ready for serial release - and each incompatible
with the previous release. The lesson learned from selling the blades
and giving away the razor.


dp

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From: esitea@inficad.com                                01-Sep-99 21:51:17
  To: All                                               02-Sep-99 10:42:04
Subj: Re: Here's a lob, smack the hell out of it...

From: Ezra Sitea <esitea@inficad.com>

Just my $.02 -- Try BeOS.  Great gui, stable, slow, but steady stream of new
apps, and
access to your FAT drives.  Just installed 4.5 along side Win95 and Warp
Connect.  Be
lives happily on a primary partition at the end of the first physical drive
and can
share data with FAT partitions.  OS/2 is still my favorite, and with Star
Office on the
way, I can rely on it for more of my daily business stuff.

Have FreeBSD on a second box under the desk and it is great as well.  Never,
and I mean
NEVER, has any problems in almost two years (from 2.2 to 3.2).  If you need a
server,
check it out!  Linux seemed nice when I tried it for a couple of months, but
FreeBSD
has never given me a reason to seriously look into other Unix systems.

Ezra

John Patrick Lestrade wrote:

> SO, my question, to the cognocenti out there. What is currently the "best"
solution
> for a stable compatible operating system (this is the lob mentioned in the
> header.)?
>
> Will there be an update to OS/2 that is MORE compatible with windows? Is
that puppy
> dead and buried?
>
> Is linux going to supplant os/2 as the windows beater? What;s a user to do?

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: donjoe@example.com                                01-Sep-99 23:54:02
  To: All                                               02-Sep-99 10:42:04
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: donjoe@example.com (Don Joe - see signature)

On Wed, 01 Sep 1999 19:30:15 GMT, nospam@pacifier.com wrote:

>As for killing M$, they'll still be around but Linux is stomping them
>in the buisness world.  As for the home user, it will be a couple of
>years, but it's getting there.  

Just out of curiosity, would you mind telling the class how they define
"buisness[sic] world" on your planet, matey?


-- 
This is not a real email address, nor a real name, so
don't reply via email.

Seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, and months all
roll over.  Years don't.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: nn@nn.nn                                          02-Sep-99 01:53:00
  To: All                                               02-Sep-99 10:42:04
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: "nn" <nn@nn.nn>

Donovan Rebbechi <elflord@panix.com> wrote in message
news:slrn7spco3.8a8.elflord@panix3.panix.com...
> On Wed, 1 Sep 1999 00:14:47 -0400, nn wrote:
> >It' an old argument but the major setback is that a new user having to
know
> >exactly what kind of harware is inside his system especially the video
>
> They don't need to
>
> >adapter which can be quite a pain,
>
> Redhat autodetects supported video adaptors.

That's the thing "supported"- top of the line video adapters and other
hardware isn't supported for quite a few weeks/months after it hits the
market which is why some months back I had to "downgrade" from my Viper V550
just to get decent resoulution in KDE. I'm sure it's supported now but it
was fully supported in windows the day it shipped.

> >Windows on a home built machine goes in so easy that you simply that one
>
> If you home-build a machine with linux in mind, it also installs like
> a dream.
>
> >merely hovers his hand near the return key for about a half hour. Keep a
>
> Linux you barely need do even that.


Your right, it probably is easier to someone with the knowledge to make a
couple Linux partitions up front, but most windows users are using the OEM
master disk which requires the click of a "RESTORE" button from a booted CD
Rom then a few minor things like your name, the time zone and the 25 digit
key. Which although minor - keeps windows way ahead.


> >You can't run a server with any kind of stability that you can get with
> >Linux
>
> Did you screw up your wording or are you saying that linux is unstable ?
> please clarify.

No - How can you compare stability when there's a Linux machine out there
that hasn't needed a reboot in (?how many?) years. Then you have those
rediculous MS specific scripts. I much prefer straight cgi/perl over
anything MS comes up with.




--- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: nn@nn.nn                                          02-Sep-99 01:57:29
  To: All                                               02-Sep-99 10:42:04
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: "nn" <nn@nn.nn>

Hobbyist © <hobbyist@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:5xHNN8c6cub+U59BSvH8mEEvb2bT@4ax.com...
> In response to nn's post :

-----snippage---
> Furthermore, most windows
> using people have never installed windows themselves before and
> would fibrillate if you propose that they do.

Most windows users I know are quite familiar with installing it
unfortunately. I became very proficient at it running win95a. Win98 is a bit
more stable.


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mloveless@system-designs.com                      31-Aug-99 18:30:28
  To: All                                               02-Sep-99 10:42:04
Subj: Doug Garr interviewed on NPR's Public Interest

From: mloveless@system-designs.com (Mark Loveless)

ARRRRRGHHHH!!!!   Sometimes I just want to stick my hands thru the radio
and strangle some people.  Doug Garr, a ex-speechwriter for IBM, recently 
published an unauthorized bio of Lou Gertsner that was quite favorable, at 
least from what I can tell from his on-air comments.  He did say something 
though that really irritated me.  When asked "why did OS/2 fail?", he said:

1)  Poor APIs - programmers did not "like coding for OS/2"
2)  Poor Marketing
3)  Multi-tasks poorly.

Now, #2 is pretty much a gimme, no argument there.  #1 I think is a stretch:
I've not done much bare-metal programming, and I'm an ex-System 370 hack, so I 

thought the API made good sense.  But doesn't multi-task well?  How
ridiculous!
I tried to get in to the show and ask what his source for that comment was,
but 
was unable to get in. It would be laughable if it weren't so irritating.  He 
also mentioned that IBM employees were among the first to drop OS/2 "because 
they needed to get something that worked".  Oh please. 

Does anybody have this goober's e-mail address? 

TIA

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: hobbyist@nospam.net                               02-Sep-99 06:01:27
  To: All                                               02-Sep-99 15:03:08
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hobbyist_=A9?= <hobbyist@nospam.net>

In response to nn's post :

> That's the thing "supported"- top of the line video adapters and other
> hardware isn't supported for quite a few weeks/months after it hits the
> market which is why some months back I had to "downgrade" from my Viper V550
> just to get decent resoulution in KDE. I'm sure it's supported now but it
> was fully supported in windows the day it shipped.

Same thing happened to me with my Riva TNT card. It is now
supported so I can now use the card. The hardware support is
always one step behind. Maybe that'll change as it becomes more
popular.
 
> > >Windows on a home built machine goes in so easy that you simply that one
> >
> > If you home-build a machine with linux in mind, it also installs like
> > a dream.
> >
> > >merely hovers his hand near the return key for about a half hour. Keep a
> >
> > Linux you barely need do even that.
> 
> 
> Your right, it probably is easier to someone with the knowledge to make a
> couple Linux partitions up front, but most windows users are using the OEM
> master disk which requires the click of a "RESTORE" button from a booted CD
> Rom then a few minor things like your name, the time zone and the 25 digit
> key. Which although minor - keeps windows way ahead.

The restore disk phenomenon is computer manufacturer dependent
and not Redmond dependent, therefore it is an unfair comparison.
These same computer manufacturers could very well provide restore
disks for linux if they sold linux preinstalled.

I'd love to see how the user with the restore disk manages when
he/she attempts a restore after changing their video card, sound
card and adding a network card at their local dealers.

Restore disks are nice but have weaknesses.
 
> > >You can't run a server with any kind of stability that you can get with
> > >Linux
> >
> > Did you screw up your wording or are you saying that linux is unstable ?
> > please clarify.
> 
> No - How can you compare stability when there's a Linux machine out there
> that hasn't needed a reboot in (?how many?) years. Then you have those
> rediculous MS specific scripts. I much prefer straight cgi/perl over
> anything MS comes up with.


-- 
-=Ali=- 

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: hobbyist@nospam.net                               02-Sep-99 06:04:11
  To: All                                               02-Sep-99 15:03:08
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hobbyist_=A9?= <hobbyist@nospam.net>

In response to nn's post :

> 
> Hobbyist ø <hobbyist@nospam.net> wrote in message
> news:5xHNN8c6cub+U59BSvH8mEEvb2bT@4ax.com...
> > In response to nn's post :
> 
> -----snippage---
> > Furthermore, most windows
> > using people have never installed windows themselves before and
> > would fibrillate if you propose that they do.
> 
> Most windows users I know are quite familiar with installing it
> unfortunately. I became very proficient at it running win95a. Win98 is a bit
> more stable.
> 

Most windows users I know don't know how to reinstall windows. In
fact I know a few users who are very good with their systems  in
getting around, installing hardware etc. but cannot install
windows if asked.

-- 
-=Ali=- 

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: donjoe@example.com                                02-Sep-99 06:37:01
  To: All                                               02-Sep-99 15:03:08
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: donjoe@example.com (Don Joe - see signature)

On Thu, 02 Sep 1999 06:01:54 -0500, Hobbyist ø <hobbyist@nospam.net> wrote:

>In response to nn's post :
>
>> That's the thing "supported"- top of the line video adapters and other
>> hardware isn't supported for quite a few weeks/months after it hits the
>> market which is why some months back I had to "downgrade" from my Viper
V550
>> just to get decent resoulution in KDE. I'm sure it's supported now but it
>> was fully supported in windows the day it shipped.
>
>Same thing happened to me with my Riva TNT card. It is now
>supported so I can now use the card. The hardware support is
>always one step behind. Maybe that'll change as it becomes more
>popular.
> 
>> > >Windows on a home built machine goes in so easy that you simply that one
>> >
>> > If you home-build a machine with linux in mind, it also installs like
>> > a dream.
>> >
>> > >merely hovers his hand near the return key for about a half hour. Keep a
>> >
>> > Linux you barely need do even that.
>> 
>> 
>> Your right, it probably is easier to someone with the knowledge to make a
>> couple Linux partitions up front, but most windows users are using the OEM
>> master disk which requires the click of a "RESTORE" button from a booted CD
>> Rom then a few minor things like your name, the time zone and the 25 digit
>> key. Which although minor - keeps windows way ahead.
>
>The restore disk phenomenon is computer manufacturer dependent
>and not Redmond dependent, therefore it is an unfair comparison.
>These same computer manufacturers could very well provide restore
>disks for linux if they sold linux preinstalled.
>
>I'd love to see how the user with the restore disk manages when
>he/she attempts a restore after changing their video card, sound
>card and adding a network card at their local dealers.

Wouldn't 95/98 detect that automatically, and walk the user through the steps?


>Restore disks are nice but have weaknesses.
> 
>> > >You can't run a server with any kind of stability that you can get with
>> > >Linux
>> >
>> > Did you screw up your wording or are you saying that linux is unstable ?
>> > please clarify.
>> 
>> No - How can you compare stability when there's a Linux machine out there
>> that hasn't needed a reboot in (?how many?) years. Then you have those
>> rediculous MS specific scripts. I much prefer straight cgi/perl over
>> anything MS comes up with.

-- 
This is not a real email address, nor a real name, so
don't reply via email.

Seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, and months all
roll over.  Years don't.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: rjf@yyycomasia.com                                02-Sep-99 11:54:01
  To: All                                               02-Sep-99 15:03:08
Subj: Re: Here's a lob, smack the hell out of it...

From: rjf@yyycomasia.com (rj friedman)

On Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:31:59, "David T. Johnson" 
<djohnson@isomedia.com> wrote:

īNo, OS/2 will likely never run Win32 software.  Note, however, that this
īis a feature, not a disadvantage.

And a great big DOUBLE AMEN, to that. The sooner the Windows
- everything including the kitchen sink - paradigm for 
software joins the dinosuars, the sooner we can get out of 
the Dark Ages of personal computing.




________________________________________________________

[RJ]                 OS/2 - Live it, or live with it. 
rj friedman          Team ABW              
Taipei, Taiwan       rjf@yyycomasia.com 

To send email - remove the `yyy'
________________________________________________________

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: News@The-Net-4U.com                               02-Sep-99 12:01:21
  To: All                                               02-Sep-99 15:03:08
Subj: Re: Attitudes and apologies 

From: News@The-Net-4U.com (M.P. van Dobben de Bruijn)

> Perhaps you think that saying, "I'm curious.  Have you ever 
> considered, just for the novelty value, getting something *right* for 
> once? Here's what that page says, in the VERY FIRST
> FUCKING ITEM ON THE LIST:..." is "not at all mean," but I find it 
> confrontative, to say the least.

Now, this Kelly Robinson (who I understood is sometimes not wri-
ting under his own name) is provoking that confrontation himself. 
Perhaps not the best way to react to it in the same way he does,
but I (as a victim of one of his posts in that way, putting me in the
same line as abject figures) can very well understand this reaction.

We of course agree that it may not be the best answer to react 
to this kind of posters, it might even be what they find their pleasure
from to continue their behavior. Bet would be to forget to reply to them
or just provide factual counter-information if they are wrong. However,
losing one's temper (I could think that Tim had not seen Kelly apology
you seem to have read as Tim reacted in two hours) is understandable.

Regards from Leeuwarden
Peter van Dobben de Bruijn
---
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----

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: News@The-Net-4U.com                               02-Sep-99 12:01:24
  To: All                                               02-Sep-99 15:03:08
Subj: Re: Kelly Robinson's Apology 

From: News@The-Net-4U.com (M.P. van Dobben de Bruijn)

> JM <malstrom@yolen.oit.umass.edu> wrote:

> Sometimes me news server starts missing posts.  Then I
> check with dejanews to find some of them, but that's a pain.

You know about the right-mouse-button in that great OS/2
newsreader article-window? Directly connecting you to the
thread at DejaNews of the article you are currently reading?

Regards from Leeuwarden
Peter van Dobben de Bruijn
---
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----

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: News@The-Net-4U.com                               02-Sep-99 12:01:23
  To: All                                               02-Sep-99 15:03:08
Subj: Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2

From: News@The-Net-4U.com (M.P. van Dobben de Bruijn)

> Besides which, Innoval's products are still with us - and now they're
> free of charge (my only concern with this is that I hope that it doesn't
> affect other OS/2 ISV's which compete against these products and char-
> ge for their competing product - OS/2 users now have some high-quality 
> choices which are totally free, and that can be very hard to compete
against).

That is one possible effect. The other could be that it "ups the ante"  for
those continuing the marketing. One would need some plus, plus and plus
selling points. A superiror interface, matching the way we want to work. A
neat
way to blend into cooperation with other products (a plug-inn emailer and/or
news
reader to take the place of Netscapes included tools using the same
directories,
fileformats and settings as the stndalone), using the same adress-books or
"sha-
dowlike immediate conversion". An archiving system in PMMail <g>. It all comes
to mind. As well as it is easy to beat the free product on support, be that
free or not.

Regards from Leeuwarden
Peter van Dobben de Bruijn
---
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From: News@The-Net-4U.com                               02-Sep-99 12:01:22
  To: All                                               02-Sep-99 15:03:08
Subj: Re: vmware mistake

From: News@The-Net-4U.com (M.P. van Dobben de Bruijn)

> esther@bitranch.com (Esther Schindler) wrote:

[ ... ]
 
> Accept the apology in the spirit in which it's taken. Correct the 
> errors, gently and with kindness. Rather than being rude, assume
> that someone is well-meaning but misinformed.

What Kelly Robinson writes falls into two categories. Sometimes 
one could easily put it into this "well-meaning but misinformed" map.
On other occasions he is clearly name-calling and denouncing every-
thing and everybody. It is the second form that tends to stick to minds.

> Being relentlessly upbeat can only make you look good. If the other 
> person is a malice-riddled twit, then _you_ come across as a 
> benevolent, understanding person who is, nonetheless, nobody's fool, 
> and your personal credibility is enhanced. If your opponent is well 
> meaning but misinformed, then you simply have a conversation in which 
> both people have the opportunity to become wiser.

But ... consider this rest of your post as a (manner) lesson learned <g>

Regards from Leeuwarden
Peter van Dobben de Bruijn
---
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----

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: hobbyist@nospam.net                               02-Sep-99 07:21:17
  To: All                                               02-Sep-99 15:03:08
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hobbyist_=A9?= <hobbyist@nospam.net>

In response to Don Joe - see signature's post :

> >The restore disk phenomenon is computer manufacturer dependent
> >and not Redmond dependent, therefore it is an unfair comparison.
> >These same computer manufacturers could very well provide restore
> >disks for linux if they sold linux preinstalled.
> >
> >I'd love to see how the user with the restore disk manages when
> >he/she attempts a restore after changing their video card, sound
> >card and adding a network card at their local dealers.
> 
> Wouldn't 95/98 detect that automatically, and walk the user through the
steps?

That's a best case scenario that is uncomfortably too often not
the case. Hence the very reason for the development of restore
disk by computer manufacturers.

-- 
-=Ali=- 

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From: esther@bitranch.com                               02-Sep-99 13:07:16
  To: All                                               02-Sep-99 15:03:08
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

From: esther@bitranch.com (Esther Schindler)

On Wed, 1 Sep 1999 21:35:27, Murray Weismer <weismer@erols.com> wrote:

| It just seems that collectively, we OS2 users are accepting a second
| class status, too often accepting the scraps cast off from the Microsoft
| world, instead of demanding quality product and service, and rewarding
| those who still do provide it.

Depending on the context, there are times I could agree with you. (You
may recall that I'm married to a developer of shrinkwrap OS/2 
software. <smile>) I'm _all_ for rewarding the publishers of quality 
OS/2 applications.

However, if Dan has the same attitude -- and I wouldn't speak for him 
-- then perhaps that's one of the reasons he *didn't* make the source 
code available? MR/2 ICE is still out there, after all; why take money
from its author's pocket?

 --Esther

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From: esther@bitranch.com                               02-Sep-99 13:10:05
  To: All                                               02-Sep-99 15:03:08
Subj: Re: Doug Garr interviewed on NPR's Public Interest

From: esther@bitranch.com (Esther Schindler)

On Tue, 31 Aug 1999 18:30:56, mloveless@system-designs.com (Mark 
Loveless) wrote:

| Does anybody have this goober's e-mail address? 

I don't have it, but perhaps you could write to NPR?

--Esther 


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From: richard@NOSPAMwebtrek.com                         02-Sep-99 14:45:13
  To: All                                               02-Sep-99 15:03:09
Subj: Re: Kelly Robinson's Apology 

From: richard@NOSPAMwebtrek.com (Richard R. Klemmer)

On Thu, 2 Sep 1999 12:01:48, News@The-Net-4U.com (M.P. van Dobben de 
Bruijn) wrote:

> 
> You know about the right-mouse-button in that great OS/2
> newsreader article-window? Directly connecting you to the
> thread at DejaNews of the article you are currently reading?

I didn't, but I do now.  Thanks.  

For those interested, in ProNews 1.5b, there is a menu option called 
"Explore Thread" when you right click in  the article window.  This 
brings up your Web Browser with that thread tracked through Deja News.

Really nice feature.  Thanks.

-----------------------------
Richard R. Klemmer
richard@webtrek.com
http://www.webtrek.com
-----------------------------

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From: pcguido@ibm.net                                   02-Sep-99 14:59:12
  To: All                                               02-Sep-99 15:03:09
Subj: Re: Doug Garr interviewed on NPR's Public Interest

From: pcguido@ibm.net

As much as I love NPR, when it comes to computing, the are clueless.

I wonder if it's a coincidence that MS gave them beau coup software
and PC equipment not so long ago? It sure would explain why their
coverage of DOJ vs MS has been _so_ skimpy and filled with bogus
stuff like what you cite.

Even beloved Terry Gross treated Gates like a luminary when she
interviewed him...

The bottom line: if Mr Garr wanted to know why "OS/2 failed", all
he had to do was talk to Gary Norris.

Guido


In <7qh710$kb4$1@socrates.aristotle.net>, mloveless@system-designs.com (Mark
Loveless) writes:
|ARRRRRGHHHH!!!!   Sometimes I just want to stick my hands thru the radio
|and strangle some people.	Doug Garr, a ex-speechwriter for IBM, recently
|published an unauthorized bio of Lou Gertsner that was quite favorable, at
|least from what I can tell from his on-air comments.  He did say something
|though that really irritated me.  When asked "why did OS/2 fail?", he said:
|
|1)  Poor APIs - programmers did not "like coding for OS/2"
|2)  Poor Marketing
|3)  Multi-tasks poorly.
|
|Now, #2 is pretty much a gimme, no argument there.  #1 I think is a stretch:
|I've not done much bare-metal programming, and I'm an ex-System 370 hack, so
I
|thought the API made good sense.  But doesn't multi-task well?  How
ridiculous!
|I tried to get in to the show and ask what his source for that comment was,
but
|was unable to get in. It would be laughable if it weren't so irritating.  He
|also mentioned that IBM employees were among the first to drop OS/2 "because
|they needed to get something that worked".  Oh please.
|
|Does anybody have this goober's e-mail address?
|
|TIA
|



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From: richard@NOSPAMwebtrek.com                         02-Sep-99 14:59:24
  To: All                                               02-Sep-99 15:03:09
Subj: Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2

From: richard@NOSPAMwebtrek.com (Richard R. Klemmer)

On Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:49:03, Gerben Bergman <rerbert@wxs.nl> wrote:

> HTML mail was supposed to be the next major innovation in the email arena

HTML mail was, and is, a bad idea.  E-mail should stick to straight 
ASCII text, IMHO.

> As it happens, once the novelty of this HTML thing wears off, many users
> return to the simplicity and raw speed of good-old ASCII mail. And Agent is
> the champ in that area. :)

As you say, although I don't know that Agent is the champ.

> This whole group is one big joke anyway; the only justification for its
> existence is the amusement its participants derive from it. 
[...]

And what Advocacy group can't be described this way?  Actually, other 
than technical groups, most of Usenet can be described as such.  To 
single out c.o.o.announce seems a bit odd.

-----------------------------
Richard R. Klemmer
richard@webtrek.com
http://www.webtrek.com
-----------------------------

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From: esther@bitranch.com                               02-Sep-99 15:37:25
  To: All                                               02-Sep-99 15:03:09
Subj: Re: Doug Garr interviewed on NPR's Public Interest

From: esther@bitranch.com (Esther Schindler)

On Thu, 2 Sep 1999 14:59:24, pcguido@ibm.net wrote:

| As much as I love NPR, when it comes to computing, the are clueless.
|  
| I wonder if it's a coincidence that MS gave them beau coup software
| and PC equipment not so long ago? 

<laughing out loud>

As members of the Phoenix OS/2 Society know from reading last month's 
_extended attributes_, NPR _uses_ OS/2 to deliver that programming.

(Yes, yes, I *know* you'd like to see such articles posted online at 
http://www.possi.org. We're way behind on the "back issues" pages. As 
soon as we figure out how to automate the process, we'll get some of 
those articles posted.)

--Esther

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From: lars-news@bearnip.com                             02-Sep-99 16:06:07
  To: All                                               02-Sep-99 16:41:12
Subj: Re: [MS-bashing] New collection of anti-Microsoft banners

From: lars-news@bearnip.com (Lars Duening)

On Wed, 01 Sep 1999 19:59:19 +0100, Greg Hennessy
<cmkrnl@cix.compulink.co.uk> wrote:

>On Tue, 31 Aug 1999 18:40:31 BST, Richard Murray
><no.spam@heyrick.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Firstly, I quite *LIKE* MSIE5 (which was a great shock to me two weekends
>>ago, I can tell you)
>
>Christ! I've wandered into an alternate reality....

It's sad, isn't it? But I must agree - among all the Windows browsers
I tried the last two weeks (I'm converting my mom's old 486 into an
Internet-savy system), MSIE5 was the least obnoxious.
Lars Duening; lars@bearnip.com
(Currently I can check my mail only occasionally)

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From: djohnson@isomedia.com                             02-Sep-99 09:28:24
  To: All                                               02-Sep-99 16:41:13
Subj: Re: What is IBMNULL print driver for?

From: "David T. Johnson" <djohnson@isomedia.com>

Suggest posting questions like this in comp.os.os2.apps.  The OS/2
operating system always installs the IBMNULL printer driver so at least
one printer driver is installed.  If you are using a printer, I suggest
that you install the appropriate driver.  

EKadakal wrote:
> 
> I have removed all printers from Warp4 printer folder. However when I do
Print
> Screen from FULL SCREEN applications (DOS or OS/2), it still prints through
the
> LPT1 if there is a printer attached. However if no printer is attached, then 
it
> completely locks up when presses PrintScreen on a DELL Gn Optiplex machine.
> 
> Does anyone have any idea?
>

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From: djohnson@isomedia.com                             02-Sep-99 09:31:09
  To: All                                               02-Sep-99 16:41:13
Subj: Re: Doug Garr interviewed on NPR's Public Interest

From: "David T. Johnson" <djohnson@isomedia.com>

Mark Loveless wrote:
> 
> ARRRRRGHHHH!!!!   Sometimes I just want to stick my hands thru the radio
> and strangle some people.  Doug Garr, a ex-speechwriter for IBM, recently
> published an unauthorized bio of Lou Gertsner that was quite favorable, at
> least from what I can tell from his on-air comments.  He did say something
> though that really irritated me.  When asked "why did OS/2 fail?", he said:
> 
> 1)  Poor APIs - programmers did not "like coding for OS/2"
> 2)  Poor Marketing
> 3)  Multi-tasks poorly.
> 
> Now, #2 is pretty much a gimme, no argument there.  #1 I think is a stretch:
> I've not done much bare-metal programming, and I'm an ex-System 370 hack, so 
I
> thought the API made good sense.  But doesn't multi-task well?  How
ridiculous!
> I tried to get in to the show and ask what his source for that comment was,
but
> was unable to get in. It would be laughable if it weren't so irritating.  He
> also mentioned that IBM employees were among the first to drop OS/2 "because
> they needed to get something that worked".  Oh please.

Ahhhhhhhh!!!!!  The pain!!  


> 
> Does anybody have this goober's e-mail address?
> 
> TIA

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: greeneggsnspam@micron.net                         02-Sep-99 10:42:06
  To: All                                               02-Sep-99 16:41:13
Subj: OS/2 is still very much alive!!!

From: Nathan Herren <greeneggsnspam@micron.net>

Check it out.  IBM's just keeping mum about the whole thing.  I wonder
if there'll be some announcement around the time that Judge Jackson
throws the book at M$?  What else would IBM be waiting for?  What
possible reason is there to keep so quiet about OS/2?  Are they just
trying to avoid the "OS/2" word because of perceptions that it's dead?
Still, it's great to see that there IS a business case for continuing
OS/2 development.

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/zd/19990902/tc/19990902084.html


-Nathan

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: bmeyer@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au                     02-Sep-99 17:05:26
  To: All                                               02-Sep-99 16:41:13
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: bmeyer@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au

donjoe@example.com (Don Joe - see signature) writes:
>On Thu, 02 Sep 1999 06:01:54 -0500, Hobbyist  <hobbyist@nospam.net> wrote:

>>I'd love to see how the user with the restore disk manages when
>>he/she attempts a restore after changing their video card, sound
>>card and adding a network card at their local dealers.

>Wouldn't 95/98 detect that automatically, and walk the user through the
steps?

That's the theory....

Bernie
-- 
Victory has a hundred fathers, but defeat is an orphan
Count Ciano
Son-in-law of Mussolini
Diary entry, 9 September 1942

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: davegemini@aol.com                                02-Sep-99 17:19:26
  To: All                                               02-Sep-99 16:41:13
Subj: Re: OS/2 is still very much alive!!!

From: davegemini@aol.com (David Frank)

Surr-prise surr-prise
 the article is written by someone we now very well here, (Esther Schindler),
who claims IBM has sold OS/2 "client" licenses worth $70m
last year..

She also reports:
IDC says OS/2 use is down to 0.5 % of 89 million? desktops..
(a sharp drop)

applying a little estimating:
 0.5% = approx.  500k current users 
 $70 million =      500k new users?

IBM's sales figures relating to OS/2
client dont add up,  so whats new !!

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: esther@bitranch.com                               02-Sep-99 17:30:05
  To: All                                               03-Sep-99 03:37:14
Subj: Re: OS/2 is still very much alive!!!

From: esther@bitranch.com (Esther Schindler)

On Thu, 2 Sep 1999 16:42:13, Nathan Herren <greeneggsnspam@micron.net>
wrote:
| Check it out.  IBM's just keeping mum about the whole thing. 

FWIW, the original article is posted at 
http://www.zdnet.com/sr/stories/news/0,4538,2326830,00.html

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: esther@bitranch.com                               02-Sep-99 17:33:24
  To: All                                               03-Sep-99 03:37:15
Subj: Re: OS/2 is still very much alive!!!

From: esther@bitranch.com (Esther Schindler)

On Thu, 2 Sep 1999 17:19:52, davegemini@aol.com (David Frank) wrote:

| She also reports:
| IDC says OS/2 use is down to 0.5 % of 89 million? desktops..
| (a sharp drop)
|  
| applying a little estimating:
|  0.5% = approx.  500k current users 
|  $70 million =      500k new users?
|  
| IBM's sales figures relating to OS/2
| client dont add up,  so whats new !!

I believe that what IDC meant is that, of the 89 million desktop 
systems (running OS/2, Windows, Macintosh etc), 0.5% run OS/2.

Also, keep in mind that when IBM sells lots-o-clients to a corporate 
customer, the price per desktop license is far from the list price. I 
don't know how much that is, so I can't estimate just how many users 
that is. *Plus,* some part of those OS/2 client sales may be 
Warp3->Warp4 upgrades; we can't even be sure how many are new users.

--Esther

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: djohnson@isomedia.com                             02-Sep-99 10:41:18
  To: All                                               03-Sep-99 03:37:15
Subj: Re: OS/2 is still very much alive!!!

From: "David T. Johnson" <djohnson@isomedia.com>


Nathan Herren wrote:
> 
> Check it out.  IBM's just keeping mum about the whole thing.  I wonder
> if there'll be some announcement around the time that Judge Jackson
> throws the book at M$?  What else would IBM be waiting for?  What
> possible reason is there to keep so quiet about OS/2?  Are they just
> trying to avoid the "OS/2" word because of perceptions that it's dead?

This kind of news is great!  I think IBM would rather swallow poison
than start selling OS/2 to end users again because they know that that
is not their business.  IBM likes to sell information management
solutions to business.  They don't marry any technology, only systems
and solutions.  And they want it to work.  OS/2 works well in this way. 
I recently visited a VERY large manufacturing facility for aircraft
components.  The entire facility used the server-managed client
Workspace-on-Demand software developed by IBM and it was very
impressive.  There is no doubt in my mind that this is what all large
sites will be using within 5 years or less.  (Microsoft is probably
working on their own version.)  But probably not 1 person in 100 in the
facility even realized that it was "OS/2."  What they did know, however,
is that it worked MUCH better than the "old" non-OS/2 system.  The OS/2
technology is clearly making a substantial contribution to economic
growth and productivity.  Thank you IBM!!!

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: nospam@pacifier.com                               02-Sep-99 19:31:09
  To: All                                               03-Sep-99 06:09:27
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: nospam@pacifier.com

On Wed, 01 Sep 1999 19:08:54 -0500, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hobbyist_=A9?=
<hobbyist@nospam.net> wrote:

>In response to nospam@pacifier.com's post :
>
>
>> >> You're not only trolling, but a lot behind reality. You can get PCs
>> >> with Linux pre-installed and perfectly set up today (at Red Zac).
>> >
>> >Red who?!! <chuckle>
>> Well lets see who sells them pre-installed, Dell, Compaq, IBM, HP,
>> want more?
>
><huge yawn>
>Uhm, really? Shrug.
>
>> As for killing M$, they'll still be around but Linux is stomping them
>> in the buisness world.  As for the home user, it will be a couple of
>> years, but it's getting there.  
>
>Couple years? Hmmm. Add about 3 more years to that and I may
>start looking in your direction. :)
>
>-- 
>-=Ali=- 

Look at the market figures, NT sales over the last two years have been
shrinking.  Linux sales in 98' grew by over 218%, that dosn't include
the free downloads.  The facts speak for themselves, total cost of
ownership is a major factor along with speed and stability.  I still
wouldn't run it for my main server, I'd stick with either a HPUX or
Sun system depending on the application.  But for FTP, File Servers,
it works great and the price is right.  If NT was all that why dosn't
M$ use it instead of depending on Unix?  Because NT is still not
scalable and barfs under any kind of a stress load.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: mawa@iname.com                                    31-Aug-99 17:29:26
  To: All                                               03-Sep-99 06:09:27
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: mawa@iname.com (Matthias Warkus)

It was the Mon, 30 Aug 1999 22:45:54 -0400...
..and Hobbyist ø <hobbyist@nospam.net> baffled me with their
ignorance as usual when they wrote;

> > You're not only trolling, but a lot behind reality. You can get PCs
> > with Linux pre-installed and perfectly set up today (at Red Zac).
> 
> Red who?!! <chuckle>
> 
> Never heard of them.

Something like CompUSA. There's a couple hundred Red Zac retail
outlets in Germany.

mawa
-- 
Es begab sich aber zu jener Zeit, daį Volt, genannt der Spannende, in
das Gate der Schaltung floį, zu richten die Wechselnden und die
Gleichen. Und so ffnete er dem Strom Thyr und Istor.
                                          -- 1. Buch Danfoss 1, 23-24

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: rerbert@wxs.nl                                    02-Sep-99 23:02:24
  To: All                                               03-Sep-99 06:09:28
Subj: Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2

From: Gerben Bergman <rerbert@wxs.nl>

Okay, Richard R. Klemmer, where are you keeping Elvis?

| > HTML mail was supposed to be the next major innovation in the email arena.
| 
| HTML mail was, and is, a bad idea.  E-mail should stick to straight
| ASCII text, IMHO.

I couldn't agree with you more. HTML mail takes up too much bandwidth,
introduces incompatibilities between mailers, is clumsy when it comes to
multiple quotation levels, and adds unnecessary complexity to the message-
composition process. I wish they'd never thought it up.

| > As it happens, once the novelty of this HTML thing wears off, many users
| > return to the simplicity and raw speed of good-old ASCII mail. And Agent
is
| > the champ in that area.
| 
| As you say, although I don't know that Agent is the champ.

Well, it's *my* champ. You, of course, are free to think of it as the
biggest load of crap you've ever laid eyes on. :)

| > This whole group is one big joke anyway; the only justification for its
| > existence is the amusement its participants derive from it.
| 
| And what Advocacy group can't be described this way?  Actually, other
| than technical groups, most of Usenet can be described as such.  To
| single out c.o.o.advocacy seems a bit odd.

I singled this group out because it's the one we're in. And, in case you
hadn't noticed, my views aren't exactly shared by everyone here; there are
several participants who consider c.o.o.a the last brave bastion against the
Microsoft Tyranny, a place which needs to be purified of evil FUD-spewing MS
shills in the name of righteousness, freedom, and independent thought. These
are the people I was addressing.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: ericb@pobox.com                                   02-Sep-99 17:07:23
  To: All                                               03-Sep-99 06:09:28
Subj: Re: OS/2 is still very much alive!!!

From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)

In article <37CEA8E4.1CDEA659@micron.net>, greeneggsnspam@micron.net wrote:

> Check it out.  IBM's just keeping mum about the whole thing.  I wonder
> if there'll be some announcement around the time that Judge Jackson
> throws the book at M$?  What else would IBM be waiting for?  What
> possible reason is there to keep so quiet about OS/2?  Are they just
> trying to avoid the "OS/2" word because of perceptions that it's dead?
> Still, it's great to see that there IS a business case for continuing
> OS/2 development.

What, sales that drop by 40% according to the article?  Is that your
business case? :-)


Of course, maybe that wouldn't happen if IBM would actually promote the
product.

-- 
Eric Bennett ( http://www.pobox.com/~ericb/ ) 
Cornell University / Chemistry & Chemical Biology

You can get much further with a kind word and a gun than you can
with a kind word alone. -Al Capone

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: hobbyist@nospam.net                               02-Sep-99 17:56:04
  To: All                                               03-Sep-99 06:09:28
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hobbyist_=A9?= <hobbyist@nospam.net>

In response to nospam@pacifier.com's post :

> On Wed, 01 Sep 1999 19:08:54 -0500, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hobbyist_=A9?=
> <hobbyist@nospam.net> wrote:
> 
> >In response to nospam@pacifier.com's post :
> >
> >
> >> >> You're not only trolling, but a lot behind reality. You can get PCs
> >> >> with Linux pre-installed and perfectly set up today (at Red Zac).
> >> >
> >> >Red who?!! <chuckle>
> >> Well lets see who sells them pre-installed, Dell, Compaq, IBM, HP,
> >> want more?
> >
> ><huge yawn>
> >Uhm, really? Shrug.
> >
> >> As for killing M$, they'll still be around but Linux is stomping them
> >> in the buisness world.  As for the home user, it will be a couple of
> >> years, but it's getting there.  
> >
> >Couple years? Hmmm. Add about 3 more years to that and I may
> >start looking in your direction. :)
> >
> >-- 
> >-=Ali=- 
> 
> Look at the market figures, NT sales over the last two years have been
> shrinking.  Linux sales in 98' grew by over 218%, that dosn't include
> the free downloads.  The facts speak for themselves, total cost of
> ownership is a major factor along with speed and stability.  I still
> wouldn't run it for my main server, I'd stick with either a HPUX or
> Sun system depending on the application.  But for FTP, File Servers,
> it works great and the price is right.  If NT was all that why dosn't
> M$ use it instead of depending on Unix?  Because NT is still not
> scalable and barfs under any kind of a stress load.

I hate percentages. I prefer absolute figures.

To increase the sales figure of say 500,000 copies by 218% isn't
farfetched and the percentage looks impressive but as an absolute
figure on the background of the general computer installed base
it's a drop in the bucket.


-- 
-=Ali=- 

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: bwardell@mw.mediaone.net                          02-Sep-99 23:22:21
  To: All                                               03-Sep-99 06:09:28
Subj: Re: Doug Garr interviewed on NPR's Public Interest

From: "Brad Wardell" <bwardell@mw.mediaone.net>

Mark Loveless <mloveless@system-designs.com> wrote in message
news:7qh710$kb4$1@socrates.aristotle.net...
> ARRRRRGHHHH!!!!   Sometimes I just want to stick my hands thru the radio
> and strangle some people.  Doug Garr, a ex-speechwriter for IBM, recently
> published an unauthorized bio of Lou Gertsner that was quite favorable, at
> least from what I can tell from his on-air comments.  He did say something
> though that really irritated me.  When asked "why did OS/2 fail?", he
said:
>
> 1)  Poor APIs - programmers did not "like coding for OS/2"
> 2)  Poor Marketing
> 3)  Multi-tasks poorly.
>
> Now, #2 is pretty much a gimme, no argument there.  #1 I think is a
stretch:
> I've not done much bare-metal programming, and I'm an ex-System 370 hack,
so I
> thought the API made good sense.  But doesn't multi-task well?  How
ridiculous!
> I tried to get in to the show and ask what his source for that comment
was, but
> was unable to get in. It would be laughable if it weren't so irritating.
He
> also mentioned that IBM employees were among the first to drop OS/2
"because
> they needed to get something that worked".  Oh please.
>
> Does anybody have this goober's e-mail address?
>

I have to agree, the guy needs a serious brain recharge or something.

OS/2's API is still the best one out there and I don't think a day goes by
where we at work don't complain how lame NT's multitasking is compared to
OS/2's.

Simple test that comes up EVERY day:
On NT I run VC++ and when it's compiling The Corporate Machine source code,
the machine becomes very unresponsive.  This is on a high end P2-450,
UW-SCSI2 system.  I basically have to sit and wait for it to finish CPU
monitor is at 100%. Win2K has same problem.

On OS/2, compiling the same code (or just about) and the system is very
responsive.  If I keep the compiler highlighted, it finished about as fast
as the NT one.  If I go to other apps, it does take a bit longer to compile
but the system is so much more responsive (night and day difference).  No
matter how you set up NT, background apps can still easily bring the system
to a crawl.

Brad


Brad

> TIA
>


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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: madings@baladi.nmrfam.wisc.edu                    02-Sep-99 23:43:21
  To: All                                               03-Sep-99 06:09:28
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: Steve Mading <madings@baladi.nmrfam.wisc.edu>

In comp.os.linux.advocacy nn <nn@nn.nn> wrote:

: That's the thing "supported"- top of the line video adapters and other
: hardware isn't supported for quite a few weeks/months after it hits the
: market which is why some months back I had to "downgrade" from my Viper V550
: just to get decent resoulution in KDE. I'm sure it's supported now but it
: was fully supported in windows the day it shipped.

You've got it backward, like most Linux poo-pooers do.  Windows doesn't
support the Viper V550.  The Viper V550 supports Windows.  It's important
to get that distinction because it shows that Windows doesn't get the
kudos for having this hardware work.  It is a feature of the marketplace,
not a feature of the OS.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: madings@baladi.nmrfam.wisc.edu                    02-Sep-99 23:48:04
  To: All                                               03-Sep-99 06:09:28
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: Steve Mading <madings@baladi.nmrfam.wisc.edu>

In comp.os.linux.advocacy nospam@pacifier.com wrote:

: Point  is you have to buy a third party product to administer the
: solution.  The other major issue is system crashes are no longer an
: issue.  It's faster, more stable and simple to operate as a user.  You
: dont' need 3rd party software to administer any standard Unix or Linux
: distro.  I was just pointing to is the fact that support is much
: easier with any Unix variant.

The other point to make is that PCanywhere *requires* that you take
full control of the PC entirely.  There's no concept of remotable
usage of just a program or two while the console user is using other
programs.  This is a klugy solution.  There is one and only one case
in which that is nice and that's when you want to *show* someone what
you are doing from afar.  For every other case it is clumsy and
excessive to require a full takeover of the console.

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: malstrom@yolen.oit.umass.edu                      02-Sep-99 20:18:05
  To: All                                               03-Sep-99 06:09:28
Subj: Re: OS/2 is still very much alive!!!

From: JM <malstrom@yolen.oit.umass.edu>

Nathan Herren <greeneggsnspam@micron.net> wrote:
: Check it out.  IBM's just keeping mum about the whole thing.  I wonder
: if there'll be some announcement around the time that Judge Jackson
: throws the book at M$?  What else would IBM be waiting for?  What
: possible reason is there to keep so quiet about OS/2?  Are they just
: trying to avoid the "OS/2" word because of perceptions that it's dead?
: Still, it's great to see that there IS a business case for continuing
: OS/2 development.

: http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/zd/19990902/tc/19990902084.html

That's a cool article, I'm glad that it is getting around.  I'm glad the 
OS/2 community has Esther Schindler to write for it.

But I doubt at the end of the MS trial will see IBM go, "Ha ha ha, we 
tricked all of you computer developers, OS/2 is still alice" and go have 
a big OS/2 parade down the streets of New York, while the people at SPG 
curse "No we were tricked!!"

-Jason

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: malstrom@yolen.oit.umass.edu                      02-Sep-99 20:10:13
  To: All                                               03-Sep-99 06:09:28
Subj: Re: Doug Garr interviewed on NPR's Public Interest

From: JM <malstrom@yolen.oit.umass.edu>

Mark Loveless <mloveless@system-designs.com> wrote:

: though that really irritated me.  When asked "why did OS/2 fail?", he said:

: 1)  Poor APIs - programmers did not "like coding for OS/2"
: 2)  Poor Marketing
: 3)  Multi-tasks poorly.

: Now, #2 is pretty much a gimme, no argument there.  #1 I think is a stretch:

What I imagine happens is they needed something to tell people.  They 
came up with reason #2 and had to make up other the other reasons not to 
look stupid.

-Jason

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From: malstrom@yolen.oit.umass.edu                      02-Sep-99 20:25:00
  To: All                                               03-Sep-99 06:09:28
Subj: Re: Sun to proliferate Star Office...

From: JM <malstrom@yolen.oit.umass.edu>

Dennis Peterson <dpeterso@halcyon.com> wrote:

: JM wrote:
:> 
: [whack]

:> The real reason why Star Office still has no chance against Office, is
:> because coporations have standardized on Office.  They are more then
:> willing to buy their MS Office volume discount to get their standards.

: And those standards reduce simply to file format and the user interface.
: If staroffice properly and adequately clones those two features, MS
: office is just an expensive white elephant. So far, that is true.

And the microsoft brand name.  For far too many Microsoft is the PC.  
Even if you get Macs, your going to be running MS Office.  The new slogan 
of the 90's could be "No one ever got noticed by the pointed haired boss 
by getting Microsoft on their PCs"  

: MS isn't going to sit still, though. I expect there will be office 2000,
: Office 2000.25, office 2000.5, etc., in an endless game to send the
: staroffice coders off on a filter/feature catch-up race. It would not
: come as a big surprise to me to learn that MS already has the next
: half-dozen versions ready for serial release - and each incompatible
: with the previous release. The lesson learned from selling the blades
: and giving away the razor.

From here on out, things are just going to get weird.

-Jason

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+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From: hobbyist@nospam.net                               02-Sep-99 20:38:12
  To: All                                               03-Sep-99 06:09:28
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hobbyist_=A9?= <hobbyist@nospam.net>

In response to Steve Mading's post :

> In comp.os.linux.advocacy nospam@pacifier.com wrote:
> 
> : Point  is you have to buy a third party product to administer the
> : solution.  The other major issue is system crashes are no longer an
> : issue.  It's faster, more stable and simple to operate as a user.  You
> : dont' need 3rd party software to administer any standard Unix or Linux
> : distro.  I was just pointing to is the fact that support is much
> : easier with any Unix variant.
> 
> The other point to make is that PCanywhere *requires* that you take
> full control of the PC entirely.  There's no concept of remotable
> usage of just a program or two while the console user is using other
> programs.  This is a klugy solution.  There is one and only one case
> in which that is nice and that's when you want to *show* someone what
> you are doing from afar.  For every other case it is clumsy and
> excessive to require a full takeover of the console.

I can accept that.

The host mode should be able to be made less controlling as
required. OTOH, I've never wished for that requirement and never
really gave it much thought until you mentioned it. This is as an
end user of course.

-- 
-=Ali=- 

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From: "operagost"@e-mail.com (remove t...               03-Sep-99 01:55:23
  To: All                                               03-Sep-99 06:09:28
Subj: Re: Important News From Dan Porter of Innoval

Message sender: "operagost"@e-mail.com (remove the - )

From: Stephen Eickhoff <"operagost"@e-mail.com (remove the - )>


Baden Kudrenecky wrote:

> In <P_ly3.343$cM2.81390@typhoon1.gnilink.net>, Stephen Eickhoff
<"operagost"@e-mail.com (remove the - )> writes:
>
>    Who the hell are you?  You sure aren't an OS/2 user, or you

Since 1994.

>
> would know about Innoval and their products.  You sure aren't a
> positive person, or you would not have posted this crap.  I have
> nothing but praise for Innoval's products, and I am only sorry
> that there was not enough revenue to help keep Dan supporting
> his discontinued products.
>

I liked Web WIlly and J Street. I said so about Web WIlly in my response. If I 
thought they made
lousy products, I would have shrugged and moved on.

But hey, I won't take it personally. My response was pretty much flame bait
and I expected someone
to bite.


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From: Spamless@In.Seattle                               02-Sep-99 20:54:04
  To: All                                               03-Sep-99 06:09:28
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: Alan Boyd <Spamless@In.Seattle>

Don Joe - see signature wrote:
> 
> Ah, the sport of MS-Hating.
> 
> Uh, right.  Same kind of "open standard" as, say, "Java"?  The kind of "open
> standard" where one company -- Sun -- maintains absolute dictatorial control
> over the "standard"?
> 
> Fuck ya, dood.

One company?  You mean like some other company does?  Try one community.

http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?990831.pistarportal2.htm
    McNealy explained that the source code would also be made 
    available, and encouraged developers to port the platform 
    to Apple. He suggested that PC makers bundle the software 
    on their systems, and even went so far as to suggest the 
    government use it and lower taxes as a result of all the 
    money they would save. 

http://www.sun.com/staroffice/
    The .com development model: Coming soon community-based
    development with open-standard file formats, APIs,
    protocols, and the Java platform; source code available
    via community source licensing; integrate StarOffice
    components into Web-based applications. 

-- 
"I don't believe in anti-anything.  A man has to have a 
program; you have to be *for* something, otherwise you 
will never get anywhere."  -- Harry S Truman

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From: nospam@pacifier.com                               02-Sep-99 19:21:23
  To: All                                               03-Sep-99 06:09:29
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: nospam@pacifier.com

<snip>
>Stick a pin there. The reason why your father has no problems now
>is because you can telnet and fix the problems instead of his
>having to wait until you drive over to fix the problem. 
>
>Over on the commercial side of things, I don't have to drive
>anywhere to help my Dad with his windows system. We both have a
>copy of PC Anywhere installed. I simply dialin on his machine and
>take over control. He can watch and see exactly what I'm doing as
>well. He is hunky dory just as your Dad is at present. I don't
>have to drive 60 miles to fix things for him either.
>
>-- 
>-=Ali=- 


Point  is you have to buy a third party product to administer the
solution.  The other major issue is system crashes are no longer an
issue.  It's faster, more stable and simple to operate as a user.  You
dont' need 3rd party software to administer any standard Unix or Linux
distro.  I was just pointing to is the fact that support is much
easier with any Unix variant.  I have to support both platforms, and
Unix or Linux is much much easier.  RPM's have started becoming the
standard package for install's.  Then again with Solaris, HPUX, or any
other flavor thier package managers are simple to operate, and yes,
they have GUI's for it to.  Don't get me wrong, I like NT Workstation
(I'm using it now).  But my point is the design is much more solid
with either Unix, Linux, or BSD.  NT is where Unix was over 25 years
ago, but unlike Unix NT's code is getting worse, not better.  When
they bought VMS and packaged it as NT it had a potential, now it's
becoming so bloated it's a nightmare.   If it is such a great OS then
why dosn't M$ use it exclusivly? (Hotmail and  MSN)  They don't
because they know it's limitations. 

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From: richard@NOSPAMwebtrek.com                         03-Sep-99 03:13:18
  To: All                                               03-Sep-99 10:34:21
Subj: Re: Innoval Quits: sad day for OS/2

From: richard@NOSPAMwebtrek.com (Richard R. Klemmer)

On Thu, 2 Sep 1999 21:02:49, Gerben Bergman <rerbert@wxs.nl> wrote:

> Okay, Richard R. Klemmer, where are you keeping Elvis?
> 
> | 
> | As you say, although I don't know that Agent is the champ.
> 
> Well, it's *my* champ. You, of course, are free to think of it as the
> biggest load of crap you've ever laid eyes on. :)

Actually, I've never laid eyes on it, which is why I don't know 
whether it's the champ or not. :-)

> | > This whole group is one big joke anyway; the only justification for its
> | > existence is the amusement its participants derive from it.
> | 
> | And what Advocacy group can't be described this way?  Actually, other
> | than technical groups, most of Usenet can be described as such.  To
> | single out c.o.o.advocacy seems a bit odd.
> 
> I singled this group out because it's the one we're in. And, in case you
> hadn't noticed, my views aren't exactly shared by everyone here; there are
> several participants who consider c.o.o.a the last brave bastion against the
> Microsoft Tyranny, a place which needs to be purified of evil FUD-spewing MS
> shills in the name of righteousness, freedom, and independent thought. These
> are the people I was addressing.

The Infoworld Electric Forums could qualify for that as well.  
Although that's predominantly Linux users these days.

And for sheer nastiness, bickering and name-calling, I still think the
Babylon 5 newsgroups do a better job than this one. :-)

But anyway... The last brave bastion against MS Tyranny ... in the 
name of righteousness, etc?  Sounds good to me. :-)

You know what thay say...

Everyone should believe in something.  I believe I'll have another 
drink. 

-----------------------------
Richard R. Klemmer
richard@webtrek.com
http://www.webtrek.com
-----------------------------

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From: lwriemen@wcic.cioe.com                            03-Sep-99 03:34:04
  To: All                                               03-Sep-99 10:34:22
Subj: Re: dont blame Gates for IBM not licensing Win32

From: lwriemen@wcic.cioe.com (Lee Riemenschneider)

On Wed, 1 Sep 1999 11:37:56, Joseph <josco@ibm.net> wrote:
> Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
> > According to Marty, they're having to rewrite most of it. I seem to
remember
> > that Timur reported that a lot of it was terribly slow.
> 
> Terribly slow -- Really.  So how come the software that uses Open32 API
isn't
> terribly slow?  What is terribly slow -- slow like running MS Office97 and
the
> terribly slow MFC?
> IBM's Netscape/2 4.61 requires Open32 which is installed with FP5 or above.  
Funny
> how MS's APIs like DirectX are thought of as fast whereas an IBM API added
to OS/2
> is terribly slow.
> 
You want terribly slow?  Try Windows Terminal Server (WTS)!  We recently
got "upgraded" at work from WinDD to WTS, and while I didn't like having
to start a WinDD session to read a two paragraph memo attached as a MS 
Word document in Lotus Notes, it was fairly quick.  Now, with WTS, I can
go get a cup of coffee waiting for the login screen to show up, and then
I have another long wait to go from login screen to Windows desktop.  
Then after the desktop finally does show up,  it is about as sluggish as
a 486 trying to run Win95 on 4MB RAM.
Needless to say, those of us at work who are fighting to prevent an all 
MS roll-out, are happy that the all MS solution advocates are providing 
us with ammo. :-)

Lee W. Riemenschneider 
Die Hard Purdue Fan!
OS/2 User and Supporter 

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From: pcguido@ibm.net                                   03-Sep-99 03:48:09
  To: All                                               03-Sep-99 10:34:22
Subj: Re: Doug Garr interviewed on NPR's Public Interest

From: pcguido@ibm.net

In <LoEFmgJJ9ecw-pn2-JK0I2VIdeW7q@agave.bitranch.com>, esther@bitranch.com
(Esther Schindler) writes:
>On Thu, 2 Sep 1999 14:59:24, pcguido@ibm.net wrote:
>
>| As much as I love NPR, when it comes to computing, the are clueless.
>|
>| I wonder if it's a coincidence that MS gave them beau coup software
>| and PC equipment not so long ago?
>
><laughing out loud>
>
>As members of the Phoenix OS/2 Society know from reading last month's
>_extended attributes_, NPR _uses_ OS/2 to deliver that programming.
>
>(Yes, yes, I *know* you'd like to see such articles posted online at
>http://www.possi.org. We're way behind on the "back issues" pages. As
>soon as we figure out how to automate the process, we'll get some of
>those articles posted.)
>
>--Esther

Esther,

NPR is not a monolith. I distinctly remember the narrator of
"All Things Considered" thanking MS during last year's pledging.
His thankyou was for all the new software & hardware MS had
donated to NPR. Perhaps he was referrencing only his own show?

As wonderful as the news that you intend to bring your possi
up-to-date is; what do think re: NPR's clueless attitude on
computing news, especially DOJ vs MS?

regards,

Guido

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From: lwriemen@wcic.cioe.com                            03-Sep-99 03:56:01
  To: All                                               03-Sep-99 10:34:22
Subj: Re: Sun to proliferate Star Office...

From: lwriemen@wcic.cioe.com (Lee Riemenschneider)

On Wed, 1 Sep 1999 03:16:55, JM <malstrom@yolen.oit.umass.edu> wrote:
> The real reason why Star Office still has no chance against Office, is 
> because coporations have standardized on Office.  They are more then 
> willing to buy their MS Office volume discount to get their standards.  
> The only thing that would have a chance to change that is a recession.  
> But as long as money is flowing, they will buy Office.
> 
If StarOffice can read/write all the MS Office formats, then there is a 
valid business case to be made in a heterogeneous workplace.  
Especially, if you can get good performance out of a central server 
running the office suite.  You can do away with Windows emulation 
(Citrix,WTS,etc.), the multitude of NT servers that go with it (I've 
been told about 50 WinDD users per NT server by an NT admin.  When your 
looking at user numbers in the 1000's, well ... ;-) ),  and the 
headaches of keeping everyone's version of Office in sync.

On an interesting side note, one of our business cases for standardizing
on MS Office was that our largest customer is standardized on MS Office;
 the trouble was our version of Office was newer than theirs, so we have
to learn to save in an older format.  How is that different than saving 
your document in WP format, or using WP and saving in Word format? ;-)

> And since people learn it and use it at work, People will look for it 
> when they buy a new PC and get it through the PC maker who pays OEM 
> prices anyways.
>
Well that other thread, that is claiming that these people just bring it
home and copy it, would  disagree with you. ;-)

Lee W. Riemenschneider 
Die Hard Purdue Fan!
OS/2 User and Supporter 

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From: lwriemen@wcic.cioe.com                            03-Sep-99 03:58:07
  To: All                                               03-Sep-99 10:34:22
Subj: Re: Sun to proliferate Star Office...

From: lwriemen@wcic.cioe.com (Lee Riemenschneider)

On Thu, 2 Sep 1999 01:13:05, Dennis Peterson <dpeterso@halcyon.com> 
wrote:
> MS isn't going to sit still, though. I expect there will be office 2000,
> Office 2000.25, office 2000.5, etc., in an endless game to send the
> staroffice coders off on a filter/feature catch-up race. It would not
> come as a big surprise to me to learn that MS already has the next
> half-dozen versions ready for serial release - and each incompatible
> with the previous release. The lesson learned from selling the blades
> and giving away the razor.
> 
Kind of funny.  You play catch-up whether your coming from an MS Office 
environment, or a competing suite. :-(

Lee W. Riemenschneider 
Die Hard Purdue Fan!
OS/2 User and Supporter 

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From: donjoe@example.com                                03-Sep-99 04:39:02
  To: All                                               03-Sep-99 11:24:28
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: donjoe@example.com (Don Joe - see signature)

On Thu, 02 Sep 1999 20:54:09 -0500, Alan Boyd <Spamless@In.Seattle> wrote:

>Don Joe - see signature wrote:
>> 
>> Ah, the sport of MS-Hating.
>> 
>> Uh, right.  Same kind of "open standard" as, say, "Java"?  The kind of
"open
>> standard" where one company -- Sun -- maintains absolute dictatorial
control
>> over the "standard"?
>> 
>> Fuck ya, dood.
>
>One company?  You mean like some other company does?  Try one community.

I guess you weren't around when the debate over Sun being granted *sole*
rights
to decide on what went into the "open" language was going on?


-- 
This is not a real email address, nor a real name, so
don't reply via email.

Seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, and months all
roll over.  Years don't.

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From: esther@bitranch.com                               03-Sep-99 13:21:15
  To: All                                               03-Sep-99 17:08:13
Subj: Re: Doug Garr interviewed on NPR's Public Interest

From: esther@bitranch.com (Esther Schindler)

NPR is certainly not a monolith. They use Windows for some things, 
Macintosh for others, and OS/2 for yet others. Not to mention RS/6000 
and other stuff.

What do I think of NPR's coverage? I don't have an opinion. In the 
last few years, I haven't heard enough of it personally to form one. 
(One of the combined advantages/disadvantages to working at home is 
that I don't listen to the radio very often. I do, however, schedule 
my errand outings to coincide with Terry Gross' show, because I think 
she's a great interviewer.)

However, I certainly don't make the mistake of equating a guest's 
opinion (such as the guy on the show referenced earlier) with the 
opinion of NPR or its representatives.

--Esther

On Fri, 3 Sep 1999 03:48:19, pcguido@ibm.net wrote:

| Esther,
|  
| NPR is not a monolith. I distinctly remember the narrator of
| "All Things Considered" thanking MS during last year's pledging.
| His thankyou was for all the new software & hardware MS had
| donated to NPR. Perhaps he was referrencing only his own show?
|  
| As wonderful as the news that you intend to bring your possi
| up-to-date is; what do think re: NPR's clueless attitude on
| computing news, especially DOJ vs MS?
|  
| regards,
|  
| Guido
|  


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From: pcguido@ibm.net                                   03-Sep-99 13:47:00
  To: All                                               03-Sep-99 17:08:13
Subj: Re: Doug Garr interviewed on NPR's Public Interest

From: pcguido@ibm.net

In <LoEFmgJJ9ecw-pn2-i9cq1gTVnWP9@agave.bitranch.com>, esther@bitranch.com
(Esther Schindler) writes:
|NPR is certainly not a monolith. They use Windows for some things,
|Macintosh for others, and OS/2 for yet others. Not to mention RS/6000
|and other stuff.
|
|What do I think of NPR's coverage? I don't have an opinion. In the
|last few years, I haven't heard enough of it personally to form one.
|(One of the combined advantages/disadvantages to working at home is
|that I don't listen to the radio very often. I do, however, schedule
|my errand outings to coincide with Terry Gross' show, because I think
|she's a great interviewer.)
|
|However, I certainly don't make the mistake of equating a guest's
|opinion (such as the guy on the show referenced earlier) with the
|opinion of NPR or its representatives.
|
|--Esther

The 'guy on the show' has been the host & narrator of All Things
Considered' since Hector was a pup - a date which even precedes
you & I!

As much as I love Terry Gross's show, did you hear her interview
of Bill Gates? I thought I was listening to a High School
journalist do that one, nothing but cream puff questions and
guarded awe... Like I said, when it comes to computing, NPR is
clueless. Also note their Y2K coverage... eech!

So NPR uses OS/2, Mac, Windows... even RS/6000? Not quite the
blanket statement you started with... eh, Esther?

regards,

Guido
|
|On Fri, 3 Sep 1999 03:48:19, pcguido@ibm.net wrote:
|
|| Esther,
||
|| NPR is not a monolith. I distinctly remember the narrator of
|| "All Things Considered" thanking MS during last year's pledging.
|| His thankyou was for all the new software & hardware MS had
|| donated to NPR. Perhaps he was referrencing only his own show?
||
|| As wonderful as the news that you intend to bring your possi
|| up-to-date is; what do think re: NPR's clueless attitude on
|| computing news, especially DOJ vs MS?
||
|| regards,
||
|| Guido
||
|
|



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From: nospam@pacifier.com                               03-Sep-99 14:10:26
  To: All                                               03-Sep-99 17:08:13
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: nospam@pacifier.com

>> Look at the market figures, NT sales over the last two years have been
>> shrinking.  Linux sales in 98' grew by over 218%, that dosn't include
>> the free downloads.  The facts speak for themselves, total cost of
>> ownership is a major factor along with speed and stability.  I still
>> wouldn't run it for my main server, I'd stick with either a HPUX or
>> Sun system depending on the application.  But for FTP, File Servers,
>> it works great and the price is right.  If NT was all that why dosn't
>> M$ use it instead of depending on Unix?  Because NT is still not
>> scalable and barfs under any kind of a stress load.
>
>I hate percentages. I prefer absolute figures.
>
>To increase the sales figure of say 500,000 copies by 218% isn't
>farfetched and the percentage looks impressive but as an absolute
>figure on the background of the general computer installed base
>it's a drop in the bucket.
>
>
>-- 
>-=Ali=- 
What I'm getting at is that it's a very rapidly growing market.  I
snuffed it off untill last year before I started messing with it.  I
was, and still am impressed with it's uses.  As for the drop in the
bucket, well I see alot of companies I work with are using it more and
more. Look at the history of this buisness, Apple was on top not to
man years ago untill they got arrogant.  IBM was before that, now it's
time for the new kid.  Things change...............................

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From: nospam@pacifier.com                               03-Sep-99 14:21:07
  To: All                                               03-Sep-99 17:08:13
Subj: Re: MS-Guillotine(tm) v.1.0 Joke.

From: nospam@pacifier.com

On Thu, 02 Sep 1999 20:38:25 -0500, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hobbyist_=A9?=
<hobbyist@nospam.net> wrote:

>In response to Steve Mading's post :
>
>> In comp.os.linux.advocacy nospam@pacifier.com wrote:
>> 
>> : Point  is you have to buy a third party product to administer the
>> : solution.  The other major issue is system crashes are no longer an
>> : issue.  It's faster, more stable and simple to operate as a user.  You
>> : dont' need 3rd party software to administer any standard Unix or Linux
>> : distro.  I was just pointing to is the fact that support is much
>> : easier with any Unix variant.
>> 
>> The other point to make is that PCanywhere *requires* that you take
>> full control of the PC entirely.  There's no concept of remotable
>> usage of just a program or two while the console user is using other
>> programs.  This is a klugy solution.  There is one and only one case
>> in which that is nice and that's when you want to *show* someone what
>> you are doing from afar.  For every other case it is clumsy and
>> excessive to require a full takeover of the console.
>
>I can accept that.
>
>The host mode should be able to be made less controlling as
>required. OTOH, I've never wished for that requirement and never
>really gave it much thought until you mentioned it. This is as an
>end user of course.
>
>-- 
>-=Ali=- 

Forgot to mention also that I don't have to worry about my Father
having a virus infecting his computer!

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From: josco@ibm.net                                     02-Sep-99 08:49:09
  To: All                                               03-Sep-99 17:08:13
Subj: Re: Shrink-wrapped Software is Dead

From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net>


Rob Hughes wrote:

> A couple of points here:
>
> Joseph wrote:
> >
> > In San Francisco Sony has built a large cinema complex in the heart of the 
city.  It
> > also has several display stores and entertainment offerings.  They have a
large wing
> > dedicated to Playstation and it's games.  They are on display and for
trial use on
> > state-of-the-art Sony thin pannel display screens.   MS has a store where
they
> > showcase MS products.  This is NOT retail.  A consumer is being motivated
to buy
> > products.  They can do so on line or retail.  The point is to brand the
consumer
> > with Sony.
> >
> > We may se a shift from retail to display/entertainment stores whre a
consumer can
> > see products and then buy them on-line.  I don't think we'll ever get rid
of the
> > need to see and touch things.  MS hasn't a equal place for seeing MS PC
games --
> > Sony's display has them beat hands down.
>
> I can already download a demo of almost any piece of software I want at
> home instead of having to go somewhere. I like that better. When I go
> out, its usually for a specific purpose, as opposed to just wandering
> about, killing time. A thing like you describe would hold my attention
> for all of about the 10 seconds or so it took me to walk past it.

I understand your point.  Still, the Sony Metron is quite popular and it is
placed next to
the cinema enterance.  Like Gateway's stores, they exist for product displays
and
information centers, not as retail outlets.  You don't wander, you look, use
and
evaluate.  If you have an interest in video consoles the playstation center is 
a great way
to see and use the product.  I'm no fan of "sharper image" like stores, but
the point
isn't my taste.  Retail shopping offered the consumer the opportunity to see
and use a
product.  A hybrid is what will replace pure retail and augment on-line buying 
you
described.  One would shop or browse at a store to decide what to buy and then 
buy it
on-line.  Brands will need to establish display stores. MS has one as does
Sony.

Another point is the windows user fears adding and taking off software since
the
application can modify the OS.  Testing software and removing it can be very
difficult for
a windows PC.  OS/2 is better since apps are not supposed to update the OS.  I 
can easily
archive the WPS and then install the app.  Afterwards I can delete the app and 
restore the
archived WPS.


> > As for authoring software -- IMHO the majority of software performs
services and
> > these services are something a company like AT&T wants to provide with a
aggregated
> > bill -- one stop shoping and billing.  If the apps are not from AT&T then
some 3rd
> > party will work with AT&Ts infrastructure and provide them to the user
(like cable
> > has it's packages).  I do not see many small developers servicing a
community of
> > consumers -- ISPs will get in the way -- like AOL for example.
>
> It sounds like your talking about the new ASP, application service
> providers. I'm not real sure I would want to run a word processor across
> a modem, even a cable modem. I'd much rather buy a copy and then run it
> locally. A lot of people might think differently, until they tried it.

No.  Not just ASP's. I think vertical integration will happen.  ISPs want to
make more $
off you by offering more services to you. Like AT&T is doing as they *make*
you pay for
servies if you want to use their cable network. You get "Low priced" bundeled
services.
SF CA recently rejected a law to force AT&T to open the network up to other
ISPs or to
stop AT&T from linking services like e-mail which is offered and paid for when 
 you
accessing their network.  AT&T is going vertical, offering (or forcing) users
of their
network to buy into services.  AT&T has a cost advantage -- they already bill
many
customers for phone services and cna add this ISP to the phone bill.  It's a
monopolist
tactic.  APSs are a layer in what I think will be more a vertical market --
again the
cable TV service packages are an anology.

As for downloading apps, a ASP can indeed let me download an applet to the PC
and it does
run locally.  Like my OS/2 dialer, the system state can be checked and files
updated.  It
isn't maintain locally.  The application can be cached but it is maintianed
and the user
state is best kept and backed up on a networked server.

As for my home PC.  I would like to NOT have to back up my PC data, not be a
systems admin
at home.  PCs are a bad model. We all waste time with wintel hardware -- even
when my OS
is OS/2.  Yes, OS/2 doesn't need to be changed that often and when it does
change its
compatiblity with older software protects my investments.  Still, all my
financial data is
on my PC and that scares me -- it can be lost.




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From: josco@ibm.net                                     02-Sep-99 08:58:17
  To: All                                               03-Sep-99 17:08:13
Subj: Re: Sun to proliferate Star Office...

From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net>


Dennis Peterson wrote:

> JM wrote:
> >
> [whack]
>
> > The real reason why Star Office still has no chance against Office, is
> > because coporations have standardized on Office.  They are more then
> > willing to buy their MS Office volume discount to get their standards.
>
> And those standards reduce simply to file format and the user interface.
> If staroffice properly and adequately clones those two features, MS
> office is just an expensive white elephant. So far, that is true.
>
> MS isn't going to sit still, though. I expect there will be office 2000,
> Office 2000.25, office 2000.5, etc., in an endless game to send the
> staroffice coders off on a filter/feature catch-up race. It would not
> come as a big surprise to me to learn that MS already has the next
> half-dozen versions ready for serial release - and each incompatible
> with the previous release. The lesson learned from selling the blades
> and giving away the razor.

It only took 6 days to create the world because there was no installed base.

I'm not sure MS can force their customers into supporting a file format arms
race.  While it makes sense and they have done this in the past they now
have anti-trust scrutiny. MS would have harder time forcing the market into
a shift.  As we know.the new Office editions always require new hardware and
that means costly system updates and OS updates.  IMHO MS would drive
corporate users to using Windows terminal server for running the latest and
greatest Office suite and thus hurt their PC OS.  That would then validate
the ASP business model.

I think a site that offered users access to MS file filters would do MS
harm.  A site where you submit and get back a translated file.  The service
would use standard file formats and possibly offer the user the ability to
generate a PDF file.  I use such a service for graphic files.  A company
like SUN or IBM could easily fund the file translation site and offter the
filters as downloads.


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From: bwardell@mw.mediaone.net                          03-Sep-99 15:04:06
  To: All                                               03-Sep-99 19:57:17
Subj: Re: Doug Garr interviewed on NPR's Public Interest

From: "Brad Wardell" <bwardell@mw.mediaone.net>

Esther Schindler <esther@bitranch.com> wrote in message
news:LoEFmgJJ9ecw-pn2-i9cq1gTVnWP9@agave.bitranch.com...
> NPR is certainly not a monolith. They use Windows for some things,
> Macintosh for others, and OS/2 for yet others. Not to mention RS/6000
> and other stuff.
>
> What do I think of NPR's coverage? I don't have an opinion. In the
> last few years, I haven't heard enough of it personally to form one.
> (One of the combined advantages/disadvantages to working at home is
> that I don't listen to the radio very often. I do, however, schedule
> my errand outings to coincide with Terry Gross' show, because I think
> she's a great interviewer.)
>
> However, I certainly don't make the mistake of equating a guest's
> opinion (such as the guy on the show referenced earlier) with the
> opinion of NPR or its representatives.
>
> --Esther
>

I listen to NPR every day (to the derision of my co-workers) and I enjoy it
a lot.  I even have learned to like the Diane R show.  But the news portion
is DEFINITELY biased towards being liberal.

Why do I say that?  Because of the quantity of commentary.  Take Wednesday's
top stories (and this is almost a direct quote):

"Republicans returned to capital hill after their failed campaign to spark
support in their home districts for the $800 billion tax cut.  Republicans
are uring the President not to veto the spending bill.  Despite their
efforts, there is little public support for a tax cut with little outcry
towards the impending veto."

It then went on and gave a quote that basically saying that the veto would
mark the start of "serious budget negotiations".  This kind of commentary is
onesided and inaccurate.  They cite no evidence to support the commentary
that there is no support and that there is no outcry.  Regardless of your
political affiliation, the news was biased.

Talk of the Nation is a good show on NPR but they too tend to have liberal
guests and when they allow conservative callers on the air (And bear in mind
they do have a screening process) they're almost always right wing
extremsist.

Recently they've had a couple shows dealing with gun control.  The guests
were very pro gun control and the only gun supporters were callers who were
almost universally extremists "If kids were allowed to carry guns in school
then they'd be able to defend themselves" I seem to remember one
particularly screwball caller saying.

And of course the BBC World News Service always gives us a bunch of former
British Empire news (like how the Pakistanian cricket team is doing).

But overall, I still like it and as long as one keeps these bias's in mind
and filters them out you can get to the actual facts.

Brad


> On Fri, 3 Sep 1999 03:48:19, pcguido@ibm.net wrote:
>
> | Esther,
> |
> | NPR is not a monolith. I distinctly remember the narrator of
> | "All Things Considered" thanking MS during last year's pledging.
> | His thankyou was for all the new software & hardware MS had
> | donated to NPR. Perhaps he was referrencing only his own show?
> |
> | As wonderful as the news that you intend to bring your possi
> | up-to-date is; what do think re: NPR's clueless attitude on
> | computing news, especially DOJ vs MS?
> |
> | regards,
> |
> | Guido
> |
>
>


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From: bwardell@mw.mediaone.net                          03-Sep-99 15:05:15
  To: All                                               03-Sep-99 19:57:17
Subj: Re: Doug Garr interviewed on NPR's Public Interest

From: "Brad Wardell" <bwardell@mw.mediaone.net>

<pcguido@ibm.net> wrote in message news:37cfd155@news1.us.ibm.net...
> In <LoEFmgJJ9ecw-pn2-i9cq1gTVnWP9@agave.bitranch.com>, esther@bitranch.com
(Esther Schindler) writes:
> |NPR is certainly not a monolith. They use Windows for some things,
> |Macintosh for others, and OS/2 for yet others. Not to mention RS/6000
> |and other stuff.
> |

> So NPR uses OS/2, Mac, Windows... even RS/6000? Not quite the
> blanket statement you started with... eh, Esther?

Esther's comment was not that NPR only used OS/2, just that they do use OS/2
there which is true.

Brad


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From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com                               03-Sep-99 12:04:05
  To: All                                               03-Sep-99 19:57:18
Subj: Re: Doug Garr interviewed on NPR's Public Interest

From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com>

Brad Wardell wrote:
> 
> I listen to NPR every day (to the derision of my co-workers) and I enjoy it
> a lot.  I even have learned to like the Diane R show.  But the news portion
> is DEFINITELY biased towards being liberal.

As an aside, I used to listen to an excellent program on NPR.  It was
called "Work in Progress."  It was on late night (ca. 1AM or so) a few
years back.  A man named Joe Frank would host a 1.5 to 2 hour program
once a week in which he would tell these fantastic stories.  Sometimes
funny, sometimes scarey, sometimes utterly bizarre, but always
fascinating.  Unfortunately the program lost its funding and they don't
replay them to my knowledge.  Has anyone else heard of this show?

- Marty

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From: esther@bitranch.com                               03-Sep-99 16:53:08
  To: All                                               03-Sep-99 21:18:29
Subj: Re: Doug Garr interviewed on NPR's Public Interest

From: esther@bitranch.com (Esther Schindler)

I didn't start out with a blanket statement. I said that OS/2 brings 
you those shows; the automated satellite system that schedules and 
send the shows to individual radio stations is run by OS/2. There are 
few companies that use OS/2 solely; most use more than one OS, largely
because one uses the correct tool for the job. (And sometimes "the 
correct tool" is the OS that supports an application you require.)

No, I didn't hear Terry Gross' interview of Bill Gates; I'm sorry I 
missed it. I'm not surprised, however, if her interviewer-hands were 
tied. Microsoft's PR firm is _really_ controlling when it comes to 
access to Gates, and usually makes a long list of questions that are 
unacceptable. (This is the guy who stomped off Connie Chung's show, 
you may recall.) Apparently, he gets away with it. My coworker, who 
covers Microsoft, has written about the way Microsoft treats the 
press, and would be in a better position to comment on the matter.

As I said, I don't listen enough to NPR -- or other radio stations -- 
to have an opinion about their coverage.

(And when I did, two years ago during a contract stint that required 
an hour-each-way commute, I listened to the news long enough to get 
the traffic report, and then plugged in a book-on-tape. In the space 
of a week, I listened to George Burns' autobiography, a "how to 
negotiate" book, and a collection of SF short fiction... all of which 
were a better use of my time than finding out where on the planet 
people were hurting one another.)

On Fri, 3 Sep 1999 13:47:01, pcguido@ibm.net wrote:

| The 'guy on the show' has been the host & narrator of All Things
| Considered' since Hector was a pup - a date which even precedes
| you & I!
|  
| As much as I love Terry Gross's show, did you hear her interview
| of Bill Gates? I thought I was listening to a High School
| journalist do that one, nothing but cream puff questions and
| guarded awe... Like I said, when it comes to computing, NPR is
| clueless. Also note their Y2K coverage... eech!
|  
| So NPR uses OS/2, Mac, Windows... even RS/6000? Not quite the
| blanket statement you started with... eh, Esther?
|  
| regards,
|  
| Guido

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