From @aston.ac.uk:lamcw@sun.aston.ac.uk Tue Jan 17 17:43:03 1995
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From: lamcw <lamcw@sun.aston.ac.uk>
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Subject: Weird ELITE bug...
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Hello all,

If during ELITE, the program failed to erase the dust clouds from
the screen after an explosion, what could be the problem?

Without boring people with Mac hardware, my emulator runs fine
on one CPU but I get the above error with another (PPC).


Any suggestions?


Chris Lam.


From @aston.ac.uk:lamcw@sun.aston.ac.uk Mon Jan 23 13:27:30 1995
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Dave Gilbert wrote:


;I have Elite running OK - except for what sounds like the
;same explosion problem you had - have you fixed it yet?

This is only a problem when I compile my code for the PPC 
computer. On a 68k Mac it's fine - no bugs. So the fact it's
okay on one computer and not on another worries me.
I'm going to recompile it again this afternoon, hope the
problem just goes away.

The fact that you get it too is suspicious. Are ALL the other
graphics in ELITE fine? 


;(Revs isn't working - the switching point is scrolling gently
;up the screen - I haven't figured out why yet).

Yep, I had this problem too. The reason is that your VIA
counters aren't precise enough. REVS does not sync to the
vertical sync interrupt - don't ask me why. What it does
is sync it ONCE and then leave the interrupts to tick over
on their on. That's why the interrupt changes scroll up/down
the screen.

I struggled with this for weeks trying to make the interrupts
more precise. I'm only updating the counters every 15 or so
instructions (for speed) and there's the problem.

In the end, I cheated. I detected that REVS was running and
fiddled the counters to give a rock-steady screen. Works
fine now.


Chris Lam.



From ee2015@Bristol.ac.uk Mon Jan 23 14:19:27 1995
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From: Mark Cooke <ee2015@bristol.ac.uk>
Message-Id: <9501231416.AA19226@kestrel.fen.bris.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Scrolling Swapping
To: gilbertd@cs.man.ac.uk (David Alan Gilbert)
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 14:16:20 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk
In-Reply-To: <9501231356.AA11923@r8ab.cs.man.ac.uk> from "David Alan Gilbert" at Jan 23, 95 01:56:26 pm
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Dave,

> I time everything by processor opcodes as you suggest your does, therefore it should
> just about work - but my screen timing is slightly off - I think - I'm not taking
>  account of the extra half scanline per field due to interlace - and also my interrupt
> entry latency is probably also duff.

Well, I draw the screen a scan line at a time, one every n ticks (I'm not
at my PC so can't tell you exactly what I'm using) counting from the
vertical sync.  There was a bit of discussion on one of the newsgroups
sometime last year about how long each scan line should take given the PAL
spec.  I'll see if I can find it again.

Also, as a point of information, IRQ and NMI have a 7 cycle delay before
executing the next opcode.  This is from the opcode information by various
people (it's on my web pages - see below).  This info documents the
illegal opcode functions and details exactly how each instruction works.

Mark

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|----------------------------+------------------------------------------|
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From ee2015@Bristol.ac.uk Mon Jan 23 14:19:28 1995
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From: Mark Cooke <ee2015@bristol.ac.uk>
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Subject: Re: Scrolling Swapping
To: gilbertd@cs.man.ac.uk (David Alan Gilbert)
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 13:48:59 +0000 (GMT)
In-Reply-To: <9501231340.AA11919@r8ab.cs.man.ac.uk> from "David Alan Gilbert" at Jan 23, 95 01:40:43 pm
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Hi Dave + everyone else,

> Chris Lam got back to me - he said he had the same problem with
> Revs.  Revs does not resync to the start of each frame using
> vsync - it just chains timer 1 interrupts - and you have to make
> the timings of that and the video hardware perfect.

Yep.  I caught that one on the list.  Well, I hope that my current design
methodology for my emulator will deal with this correctly.  It does mean a
bit of extra work keeping the VIA interrupts in sync though.  I currently
time the machine by using the opcode counters.  Hopefully slight errors
in timing won't cause a problem.

As a quick suggestion, could you attempt to ensure that the VIA ticks for
exactly n ticks each vertical sync.  It would require you to count how much
you decremented the timer by, and adjust for any discrepancy.  I think this
would partially solve your problem by causing the switching points to buzz
up and down around their correct positions.  Or, you could do what Chris
suggests, and do a special screen setup for Revs.

All the best.

Mark

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|----------------------------+------------------------------------------|
| bbc-emu-request@bristol.ac.uk - Home of the BBC Emulator Mailing list |
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From barnett@textb.ph.utexas.edu Mon Jan 23 16:19:14 1995
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From: barnett@textb.ph.utexas.edu (David Barnett)
Subject: Re: Scrolling Swapping
Status: RO

David Gilbert wrote:
>
>That is what I do - the scanline timing is calculated directly from the
>horizontal timing registers.  The vertical timing is also calculated that
>way - without
>any bodging the timing in the high res modes comes out at exactly the time for
>312 scanlines per field.
>
As a point of information.  If interlace is on (Depending on TV setting)
then it is 312.5 scan lines per field.

Each PAL line takes 64us (line to line time) but the BBC screen uses just
40us in the middle of each line - the rest is black + TV horizontal sync.

David Barnett



From @aston.ac.uk:lamcw@sun.aston.ac.uk Tue Jan 24 14:51:24 1995
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Date: Tue, 24 Jan 1995 14:53:06 +0000
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mass@tadpole.co.uk wrote:

;> Subject: Re: Floppy disk drives
;> To: bbc-list@ohm.york.ac.uk (Beeb mailing list)
;> Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 11:47:07 +0000 (GMT)
;> From: "M.J.Ebourne" <M.J.Ebourne@soton.ac.uk>
;> 
;> I'm afraid that finding 28 people who seriously still use their
;> Beeb that much is likely to be a problem...
;
;You know, this _really_ irritated me.
;
;When I want disparaging remarks, I'll ask. Otherwise may I suggest
;that you keep them to yourself?


Cool your boots! Has everyone lost their sense of humour?


From ee2015@Bristol.ac.uk Tue Jan 24 15:34:59 1995
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From: Mark Cooke <ee2015@bristol.ac.uk>
Message-Id: <9501241534.AA14442@kestrel.fen.bris.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: REVS Timing
To: lamcw@sun.aston.ac.uk (lamcw)
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 16:49:46 +0000 (GMT)
In-Reply-To: <4935.9501231627@sun.aston.ac.uk> from "lamcw" at Jan 23, 95 04:27:56 pm
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Chris wrote:
> Mark Cooke wrote:
> 
> ;Well, I hope that my current design
> ;methodology for my emulator will deal with this correctly.  It does mean a
> ;bit of extra work keeping the VIA interrupts in sync though.  I currently
> ;time the machine by using the opcode counters.  Hopefully slight errors
> ;in timing won't cause a problem.
> 
> 
> I found it impossible to keep exact time AND get good performance.
> On your faster PCs and in machine code, the task becomes feasible.
> It's really only REVS which is fussy which is why gave up and implemented
> a REVS cheat. It's a lot of effort just for the benefit of one game.
> Getting the timing absolutely bang-on seems to me a real herculian
> task. I can just imagine the agony of watching the REVS interrupts
> scroll very, very slowly up the screen...
> 

Well, I think that as long as the via timeouts are checked for after every
opcode there should not be a problem, even if the actual opcode ticks are
not quite right.  The problem seems to be caused by the variable delay
between when the IRQ should have been flagged and then it actually occurs.
Checking after every code should (at least) reduce the problem.  I just
wonder how Revs on the real bbc manages to deal with different interrupt
times, depending on when the timer irq actually happens.  Compare, for
instance you're doing a 7 tick opcode and a 3 tick one.  Say the irq
happens just after the instruction starts.  The first has a delay of 14
ticks, and the latter 10.  Any ideas how revs actually deals with this
slight error, which would increase over time.

Mark

+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Mark Cooke                 |    Email : ee2015@bristol.ac.uk          |
|----------------------------+------------------------------------------|
| bbc-emu-request@bristol.ac.uk - Home of the BBC Emulator Mailing list |
|   URL :  http://kestrel.fen.bris.ac.uk/students/ee2015/Welcome.html   |
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From gilbertd@cs.man.ac.uk Tue Jan 24 15:44:35 1995
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Date: Tue, 24 Jan 95 15:44:14 GMT
From: David Alan Gilbert <gilbertd@cs.man.ac.uk>
Message-Id: <9501241544.AA05426@amu5.cs.man.ac.uk>
To: ee2015@bristol.ac.uk
Subject: Re: REVS Timing
Status: RO


> > I found it impossible to keep exact time AND get good performance.
> > On your faster PCs and in machine code, the task becomes feasible.
> > It's really only REVS which is fussy which is why gave up and implemented
> > a REVS cheat. It's a lot of effort just for the benefit of one game.
> > Getting the timing absolutely bang-on seems to me a real herculian
> > task. I can just imagine the agony of watching the REVS interrupts
> > scroll very, very slowly up the screen...
> > 
> 
> Well, I think that as long as the via timeouts are checked for after every
> opcode there should not be a problem, even if the actual opcode ticks are
> not quite right.

Doesn't help - my emulator checks after each instruction and still has Revs trouble.

>  The problem seems to be caused by the variable delay
> between when the IRQ should have been flagged and then it actually occurs.
> Checking after every code should (at least) reduce the problem.  I just
> wonder how Revs on the real bbc manages to deal with different interrupt
> times, depending on when the timer irq actually happens.  Compare, for
> instance you're doing a 7 tick opcode and a 3 tick one.  Say the irq
> happens just after the instruction starts.  The first has a delay of 14
> ticks, and the latter 10.  Any ideas how revs actually deals with this
> slight error, which would increase over time.

Not too mention the indeterminate amount of time caused by cycle extension
when accessing Sheila.

I think it does a timing loop somewhere - I see a small run near the start
of accesses to User VIA timer 2, I'm guessing its doing a timing loop - and then
using that to set something else up - but thats pure guess work - I haven't yet done
any serious disassembly of it.

Dave

From ee2015@Bristol.ac.uk Wed Jan 25 16:26:50 1995
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From: Mark Cooke <ee2015@bristol.ac.uk>
Message-Id: <9501251625.AA05634@kestrel.fen.bris.ac.uk>
Subject: MBE Stats and BPC update
To: lamcw@sun.aston.ac.uk (lamcw)
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1995 16:25:56 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk (Beeb Group)
Reply-To: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk (Beeb Group)
In-Reply-To: <5862.9501251606@sun.aston.ac.uk> from "lamcw" at Jan 25, 95 04:06:09 pm
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Hi Chris (and everyone else too),

> ;Well, there have been 149 downloads of the 68K version as of today.  A
> ;fair bit of interest!  I didn't think that there were that many bbc
> ;fanatics about.
> Wow! How come I only a few email messages concerning MBE? Maybe the 
> documentation is very well written (haha)
> 
You actually wrote some information!  I don't know, whatever next.  Maybe
they were so overawed they ran about the house/office screaming until they
were dragged off by the men in white coats. Either that, or they couldn't
figure out how to transfer the rom images across.  Or even got it running,
and then haven't moved since.  As a final possibility, I suppose they
could all be trying to run Windoze on it :-)

> When will a beta version of yours be ready? I think you said Jan. I
> would like to try it.

Well, it still have some fairly major work to do.  I have been busy at
Uni.  I still have a presentation to give on Friday, that counts at 10% of
my coursework for my final year.  However, I'm still progressing steadily,
even if it's not going quite as quickly as I hoped.  I have still to
provide a sensible way of running files.

What I may do is release a couple of 'list only' build, one which runs
basic, and one which runs a game (don't know which yet - but possibly
starship command).  I also have to do some slightly better form of mode 7
emulation.  Currently it ignores all characters outside the range 32-127,
and only prints in mono, single height.  This is not a high priority though.

I'll let the everyone know when I release some code.

BTW Dave is also having problems with Elite not erasing the stars
correctly.  Maybe you two should get together on this one - if you haven't
already.

All the best,

Mark

+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Mark Cooke                 |    Email : ee2015@bristol.ac.uk          |
|----------------------------+------------------------------------------|
| bbc-emu-request@bristol.ac.uk - Home of the BBC Emulator Mailing list |
|   URL :  http://kestrel.fen.bris.ac.uk/students/ee2015/Welcome.html   |
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From @aston.ac.uk:lamcw@sun.aston.ac.uk Wed Jan 25 19:58:43 1995
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Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1995 16:41:07 +0000
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Mark Cooke wrote:

;> ;Well, there have been 149 downloads of the 68K version as of today.  A
;> ;fair bit of interest!  I didn't think that there were that many bbc
;> ;fanatics about.
;> Wow! How come I only a few email messages concerning MBE? Maybe the 
;> documentation is very well written (haha)
;> 
;You actually wrote some information!  I don't know, whatever next.


If anyone is vaguely interested in having a quick read of the docs
for MacBeebEm, I'll post them here. They're quite lengthy but it does
tell you what MBE can and cannot do and how it does what it can (ahem).
Might be of interest to those writing their own emulators.


Chris Lam.

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          for bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk; Thu, 26 Jan 1995 09:49:38 GMT
Message-Id: <199501260949.JAA10195@icebox.mfltd.co.uk>
From: jfid@mfltd.co.uk (James Fidell)
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 09:49:37 +0000
To: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk
Subject: snapshot format
Status: RO

Somewhere in time my WWW page describing my proposal for a snapshot
format seems to have disappeared from our web server.  I have now
replaced it and everything now looks wonderful and rosy to me.

Anyone who is interested should be able to find it at :

    http://www.mfltd.co.uk/~jfid/xbeeb/Snapshot.html

James.

-- 
 "Yield to temptation --             |     jfid@mfltd.co.uk
  it may not pass your way again"    |  http://www.mfltd.co.uk/~jfid/
                                     |
        - Lazarus Long               |              James Fidell

From pmorrisb@cix.compulink.co.uk Fri Jan 27 16:38:36 1995
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          for bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk; Fri, 27 Jan 1995 16:34:19 GMT
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 95 16:37 GMT
From: pmorrisb@cix.compulink.co.uk (Phil Morris)
Subject: Re: ROM images
To: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk
Cc: pmorrisb@cix.compulink.co.uk
Reply-To: pmorrisb@cix.compulink.co.uk
Message-Id: <memo.139883@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Status: RO

In-Reply-To: <199501271634.QAA04985@icebox.mfltd.co.uk>

> > Again, I have the originals, it's just going to be a pain copying them 
> > across to the PC.
> 
> Can do most of that for you if you can wait until the week after next --
> I'm away skiing next week.
> 
> James.

Thanks for your kind offer James - being an impatient beggar I really 
wanted them ASAP. However, if no-one else responds within the week then 
I'll take you up on your offer. :-)

In the meantime enjoy your skiing, and *don't* break a leg! ;-)


Phil


From clr1@st-andrews.ac.uk Fri Jan 27 18:29:23 1995
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Date: Fri, 27 Jan 95 18:16:11 GMT
From: David Alan Gilbert <gilbertd@cs.man.ac.uk>
Message-Id: <9501271816.AA12280@amu5.cs.man.ac.uk>
To: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk
Subject: Re: ROM images
Cc: ee2015@bristol.ac.uk
Status: RO


> On a side note to Dave - there appears to be a problem compiling under
> linux.  Which version of gcc did you use?  video.cc throws a fit :-
> 
> gcc -c -O6 -m486 -I. -I/usr/lib/g++-include  -Wall -finline-functions
> -funroll-all-loops video.cc
> video.cc:98: warning: ANSI C++ forbids initialization of member
> `VSyncState'
> video.cc: In function `void DoFastTable()':
> video.cc:410: not enough type information
> video.cc:412: not enough type information

Hmm - what version of gcc have you got - I've used 2.6.3 and its fine
- the only thing I can guess is that lines 121.....124 in teh same file
should have void in the brackets.

Please tell me if that works.

Dave 



From clr1@st-andrews.ac.uk Fri Jan 27 18:29:17 1995
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From: Mark Cooke <ee2015@bristol.ac.uk>
Message-Id: <9501271810.AA01337@kestrel.fen.bris.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: ROM images
To: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk (Beeb Group)
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 18:10:13 +0000 (GMT)
Reply-To: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk (Beeb Group)
In-Reply-To: <memo.137431@cix.compulink.co.uk> from "Phil Morris" at Jan 27, 95 02:25:00 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1497
Status: RO

Hi everyone,

> I'd really like to get Dave's X-based Beeb emulator running - would anyone 
> be kind enough to UUEncode and email me disk images of the 8271 DNFS/DFS, 
> BASIC and O/S 1.2 please?

Um.  I only need the 8271 D(N)FS.  Could someone either UU it, or ftp it
to blue.bad.bris.ac.uk in /incoming pls.

On a side note to Dave - there appears to be a problem compiling under
linux.  Which version of gcc did you use?  video.cc throws a fit :-

gcc -c -O6 -m486 -I. -I/usr/lib/g++-include  -Wall -finline-functions
-funroll-all-loops video.cc
video.cc:98: warning: ANSI C++ forbids initialization of member
`VSyncState'
video.cc: In function `void DoFastTable()':
video.cc:410: not enough type information
video.cc:412: not enough type information
video.cc: In function `int CRTCRead(int)':
video.cc:1001: warning: this function may return with or without a value
make: *** [video.o] Error

Mark

+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Mark Cooke                 |    Email : ee2015@bristol.ac.uk          |
|----------------------------+------------------------------------------|
|      Badock Hall Network Representative & Data Safety Officer         |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
| bbc-emu-request@bristol.ac.uk - Home of the BBC Emulator Mailing list |
|   URL :  http://kestrel.fen.bris.ac.uk/students/ee2015/Welcome.html   |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+

From clr1@st-andrews.ac.uk Fri Jan 27 16:56:08 1995
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          for bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk; Fri, 27 Jan 1995 14:22:33 GMT
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 95 14:25 GMT
From: pmorrisb@cix.compulink.co.uk (Phil Morris)
Subject: ROM images
To: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk
Cc: pmorrisb@cix.compulink.co.uk
Reply-To: pmorrisb@cix.compulink.co.uk
Message-Id: <memo.137431@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Status: RO


I'd really like to get Dave's X-based Beeb emulator running - would anyone 
be kind enough to UUEncode and email me disk images of the 8271 DNFS/DFS, 
BASIC and O/S 1.2 please?

I have a few Beebs so this shouldn't be illegal! :-)

I'd also like disk images of Arcadians especially and Elite, Revs, etc - 
does anyone have these please?

Again, I have the originals, it's just going to be a pain copying them 
across to the PC.


Thanks in anticipation,
Phil


From clr1@st-andrews.ac.uk Fri Jan 27 16:50:54 1995
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Date: Fri, 27 Jan 95 12:10:26 GMT
From: David Alan Gilbert <gilbertd@cs.man.ac.uk>
Message-Id: <9501271210.AA08080@rba.cs.man.ac.uk>
To: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk
Subject: beebem is released!
Status: RO

This is the first public release of 'beebem' - an emulator
which emulates the BBC Microcomputer under X.

It supports full graphics emulation and allows the user to play
games such as elite which rely on unusual reprogramming of graphics
hardware.

It has been tested under Linux, SunOs, and HPUX using the GCC compiler.
It will probably work on other platforms with GCC.

It requires:
  Unix
  X with an 8 bit display
  Copies of the Beeb rom images (which due to copyright are
  not supplied)

Due to its use of shared memory it must be run on the same machine as the
X server.

The package can be found via ftp in the directory /pub/beeb on
alife1.cs.man.ac.uk.

The full readme included with the package is copied below.

Please report any problems to:

Dave Gilbert (gilbertd@cs.man.ac.uk)

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
ReadMe.1st for V0.04 of Beebem

/****************************************************************************/
/*              Beebem - (c) David Alan Gilbert 1994/1995                   */
/*              -----------------------------------------                   */
/* This program may be distributed freely within the following restrictions:*/
/*                                                                          */
/* 1) You may not charge for this program or for any part of it.            */
/* 2) This copyright message must be distributed with all copies.           */
/* 3) This program must be distributed COMPLETE,with source code.  Binary   */
/*    only distribution is not permitted.                                   */
/* 4) The author offers no warranties, or guarantees etc. - you use it at   */
/*    your own risk.  If it messes something up or destroys your computer   */
/*    thats YOUR problem.                                                   */
/* 5) You may use small sections of code from this program in your own      */
/*    applications - but you must acknowledge its use.  If you plan to use  */
/*    large sections then please ask the author.                            */
/*                                                                          */
/* If you do not agree with any of the above then please do not use this    */
/* program.                                                                 */
/* Please report any problems to the author at gilbertd@cs.man.ac.uk        */
/****************************************************************************/

This directory contains 'Beebem' a program which attempts to emulate
the behavior of the British Broadcasting Corporation Model B computer system
produced in the early 1980's by Acorn Computers Ltd of Cambridge, England.
It should be noted at this stage that the author has no connection with
either the BBC or Acorn and this product has not been approved or
sanctioned by either of them.  The author recognizes all trademarks etc.
I don't want to tread on anyones toes - if there is something else I should
say then tell me - I'll add it.

The copyright on everything in Beebem is held by the author, David Alan Gilbert.

<OK thats the formal stuff out of the way.....>

0) PLEASE
---------
Send me suggestions for improvments - both in the emulator and the way I have
coded it.  I'm fairly new to C++ and X (although I have a lot of C experience)
so any lessons on what I am doing wrong are welcome.
If you find a bug, don't just curse at it - tell me about it and I may be able
to fix it.

Dave Gilbert - gilbertd@cs.man.ac.uk

1) This program is designed to run under the X windows system on Unix
workstations.  It has been tested on a Linux PC,Sun and HP workstations. 

2) You need an 8 bit deep display on a server which supports the MIT
shared memory extensions - I've not made any provision for use without shared
memory - this also means that you have to run the program on the workstation
that the display is on.

3) The program requires a C++ compiler which supports templates.  I haven't
made much use of this yet.  I have used gcc 2.58 and 2.6.3 - I strongly
recommend 2.6.3 over 2.5.8 since 2.5.8 has a nasty habit of missing some
errors. It actually needs to be able to handle nested templates - I think the
Silicon Graphics compilers have problems with that.

4) You will need images of the Beeb D(N)FS, OS 1.2 and BASIC and disc images
of programs you wish to run under the beeb - more details below.

Installation
------------
You've presumably unpacked this tar - good!

The first thing is to construct a makefile (or three!).  First have a look
if there is a 'config.' file for your machine - e.g. config.linux.  If not
create one based on one of them.  Edit the file until it matches your
environment (includes etc.).  

Now type 'configure machinename' (e.g. configure linux) - that
will build all the makefiles.  Now edit port.h - if your
using gcc you probably don't need to do anything.
Finally you may have to change the keyboard map.
There is a line in beebwin.cc:

#include "keytable_2"

Thats a keyboard table which suits PC style keyboards (and Sun 4, and some
Sun 5) - you can change that to point at another keytable file.  If you
want to create your own see the description below.

Now type 'make' - and hope for the best!

Now you have to get three disc images from a beeb.  One of an 8271 dfs (I
used DNFS).  Place that in beebfile/dnfs (even if its a dfs).  Put the basic
rom in beebfile/basic and the OS in beebfile/os12.  These images are just 16KB
binary files.

If you are planning on reading a disc (a good idea!) you'll have to figure out
how to make a disc image.  The present disc images are simple sector images -
the format of which is described below.  I produced these using an
Acorn Archimedes with a 5.25" drive - I suspect you can do the same with a PC
with a suitable drive (which I do not have).
If you can't generate a disc image that is fine - you don't need it.

By default 'beebem' looks in discims/elite for the discimage (which should be
an 80 track double sided image).  An environment variable can be used to change
this - see below.


OK - now type 'beebem'.  It should come up in mode 7 with the standard beeb
start up messages.

Use:
----
The only thing you really have to get used to is the keyboard mapping which
isn't quite right yet.  Break is mapped to F12 and Break and Pause.  One of
those should work for you.  If not try L2 on a sun.  On my Linux box shift or
Ctrl F12 doesn't work but Shift+F2 seems to do the trick - I don't understand
why. F0 is mapped to F10.  On HP's the four unmarked keys above the keypad
correspond to F9-F12.

The rest of the keyboard is also a bit strange.  Each key on the keyboard
corresponds directly to a key on the beeb's keyboard - that is one key will
have the effect of the beeb's ;+ key even though the workstations keyboard
doesn't have it.   The mapping is defined in the 'keymaps_2' file which works
well for PC, Sun 4 and some Sun 5 keyboards, details of how to change it are
described below.

BUT! z,x and / are the same and the default map uses the key with the ' on the
bottom for the beebs :* key - that should let you play most games!

Environment variables
---------------------
1) BeebDiscLoad  (default "D:80:discims/elite")

This allows you to load another disc image.  E.g. doing the following in
SH loads a (D)ouble sided, 80 track disc image called 'discims/games'.

BeebDiscLoad="D:80:discims/games"
export BeebDiscLoad

The format of these files is described below.

2) BeebVideoRefreshFreq (default 1)

This is a speed hack.  If set to 'n' then only every n'th field is rendered
and thus the emulation is faster (but not 'n' times!!).

Disc image formats
------------------

Two forms of disc image are presently supported.  The first is single sided
format.  This consists of a raw disc image of a beeb, 10 sector per track, 256
byte per sector disc side.  So the image is ordered
  track 0,sector 0,
  track 0,sector 1,
         .
  track 0,sector 9,
  track 1,sector 0

  etc.

The double sided format uses interleaved tracks:
  track 0,head 0, sector 0,
            .
  track 0,head 0, sector 9,
  track 0,head 1, sector 0,
            .
  track 0,head 1, sector 9,
  track 1,head 0, sector 0,
            etc

This double sided format can be produced using the !Zap editor on the Acorn
Archimedes with a 5 1/4" drive.  The author intends to write a utility for
Linux to do the same thing.

Keymaps
-------
Mapping the beeb keyboard to that of a workstation is a nightmare.  Due to the
way in which the beeb keyboard handles shifts, it is difficult to reliably map
the symbols printed on the workstation keys to the beeb.  For this reason what
'beebem' does is to map one workstation key exactly onto a beeb key.  For
example on the standard keymap the '6^' key on my PC or workstation actually
produces 6& just like the beeb.

You may have to modify the keytable (keytable_2) if you have a wierd keyboard.
It consists of a table of X keysyms and the corresponding row/column positions
on the beebs key matrix.  The keysyms in this file should be the first keysym
associated with akey - i.e. what you get without any modifiers (shifts/control
etc.) - so only XK_t is used NOT Xk_T.

Please remember the terminator on the end of the list.

One problem is that lock keys, like the Caps Lock key get locked before the
emulator gets to them, so to release a capslock on the beeb you have to press
it twice.  I've got some ideas for how to cure this, but in the mean time if
you have a game which uses capslock (e.g. positron) you could always use the
keytable file to map it to a different key.

If you have good working keytables I'd be happy to include them in the
distribution.

Emulation Limitations
---------------------
1) Hold and Release graphics in Mode 7

These two command codes aren't emulated in Mode 7- if someone can explain to
me what they are supposed to do, I'll add them, but so far I've completely
failed to find a decent explanation!

2) Read only 8271

A very limited subset of the 8271 is supported - that is enough to allow DNFS,
and Replica 1 read discs.   I plan to add write sometime - but I'm in no rush.

3) Elite - sticky explosions (bug)

The explosions don't go away in Elite - I haven't got any clue why -
suggestions willfully accepted!

4) Revs - screen display corrupted (bug)

Revs relies on precise timing information and is difficult to emulate without
hacking.  I intend to cure this in later releases.

5) Undefined opcodes

I don't emulate any of the undefined opcodes sometimes used in games.  I
probably will in future.  At the moment I just move one instruction on and
hope for the best.

6) Timing

The timing of instructions is not precise - well most are but the special
cases (i.e. if you skip over a page boundary it takes one more cycle) are not
accounted for.

7) Missing hardware

Serial, ADC, Printer port, keyboard LEDs, sound, tube, light pen, and econet
are not yet emulated.  A lot of people keep pushing me to get sound added -
I probably will some day. Econet holds a lot of possiblities - I quite like
the idea of doing a socket based daemon type thing.

8) Hangs after reset

Sometimes if you've played a game and hit reset the emulated beeb hangs - I
think thats due to not resetting VIAs correctly.

9) Junk at bottom/side of screen

In mode 7 you sometimes get a bit of junk at the bottom of the screen.  This
also happens in screen modes which only use part of the display area.

Problems
--------
1) olvwm
On suns olvwm never passes any input to beebem.
On the olvwm I have with Linux, beebem never gets focus in and out events
which it needs to handle auto repeat properly.
The solution in both cases is to use a different window manager - such as
Fvwm.


3) Lockups
It hasn't done it for a while - but I had it happen on an older version of the
X server under Linux - if it happens to you try hitting a key.  If you've got
Linux try and get the latest version of the server and see if that helps.

4) Errors

The emulator doesn't handle X, memory or file missing problems nicely - it
normally just core's.

Other things
------------
1) Other signals
Sending a SIGUSR1 causes beebem to dump the register state after each
instruction.
Sending a SIGUSR2 causes beebem to dump the state of allIO registers once.

2) Adding ROMS
In beebmem.cc in the routine BeebMemInit there are a number of lines of the
form :

ReadRom("basic",0xf);

You can add extra lines to read into other rom banks.

Todo
----

1) Fix bugs
2) Add extra hardware support (particularly sound)
3) Speed it up!!!! (although it works fine on my Pentium-90 or an HP9000/700!)
4) Snazzy X windows thing for setting options, key maps, selecting disc images
and roms.
5) Make it portable - its portable on the basis that it will probably work
under GCC on any platform - that really isn't as portable as it should be.

Thanks
------

Thanks to the members of the Beeb emulator mailing list for giving me the mad
idea of writing this thing and suggesting fixes for some problems.  Thanks for
various friends and members of the department for trying the program (at very
early and touchy stages!) and lending me discs to try on it!

PLEASE
------
Send me suggestions for improvments - both in the emulator and the way I have
coded it.  I'm fairly new to C++ and X (although I have a lot of C experience)
so any lessons on what I am doing wrong are welcome.
If you find a bug, don't just curse at it - tell me about it and I may be able
to fix it.

Dave Gilbert - gilbertd@cs.man.ac.uk

From clr1@st-andrews.ac.uk Mon Jan 23 17:28:01 1995
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Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 11:12:58 -0600
To: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk
From: barnett@textb.ph.utexas.edu (David Barnett)
Subject: Re: Scrolling Swapping
Status: RO


David Gibert wrote:
>
>> >That is what I do - the scanline timing is calculated directly from the
>> >horizontal timing registers.  The vertical timing is also calculated that
>> >way - without
>> >any bodging the timing in the high res modes comes out at exactly the
>>time for
>> >312 scanlines per field.
>
>
David Barnett pointed out:
>> >
>> As a point of information.  If interlace is on (Depending on TV setting)
>> then it is 312.5 scan lines per field.
>
David Gilbert replied:
>
>I think that depends - some versions of PAL have 312 lines on one field,
>and 313
>on the next - some have 312.5 on both.
>The 312 pops cleanly out of the screen parameters programmed by the beeb's OS.
>
>So - where does the extra scanline appear in the timing?
>
I haven't looked at the MOS in detail.  Check what *TV does.

The 1/2 line is important to achieve the interleaving of lines from
successive fields (actually, all sensible people have interlace off because
there is no resolution advantage on the BBC Micro and it gives rise to
annoying flicker.  Mode 7 always has interlace on).  As far as BBC
emulation is concerned, the effect is 32us.  Only games that do pallet
switching would care and they usually have a fudge band becuse the
interrupt delays introduce significant uncertainty anyway.  My guess is
that the Games either force *TV0,1 and use the VIA timer in auto-repeat
mode or they reload the VIA on every Vsync interrupt (the more robust thing
to do).

David Barnett



From clr1@st-andrews.ac.uk Mon Jan 23 17:27:43 1995
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Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 16:27:56 +0000
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Status: RO



Mark Cooke wrote:

;Well, I hope that my current design
;methodology for my emulator will deal with this correctly.  It does mean a
;bit of extra work keeping the VIA interrupts in sync though.  I currently
;time the machine by using the opcode counters.  Hopefully slight errors
;in timing won't cause a problem.


I found it impossible to keep exact time AND get good performance.
On your faster PCs and in machine code, the task becomes feasible.
It's really only REVS which is fussy which is why gave up and implemented
a REVS cheat. It's a lot of effort just for the benefit of one game.
Getting the timing absolutely bang-on seems to me a real herculian
task. I can just imagine the agony of watching the REVS interrupts
scroll very, very slowly up the screen...


Chris.

From clr1@st-andrews.ac.uk Mon Jan 23 17:27:02 1995
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Date: Mon, 23 Jan 95 14:41:08 GMT
From: David Alan Gilbert <gilbertd@cs.man.ac.uk>
Message-Id: <9501231441.AA11946@r8ab.cs.man.ac.uk>
To: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Scrolling Swapping
Status: RO

> > I time everything by processor opcodes as you suggest your does, therefore it should
> > just about work - but my screen timing is slightly off - I think - I'm not taking
> >  account of the extra half scanline per field due to interlace - and also my interrupt
> > entry latency is probably also duff.
> 
> Well, I draw the screen a scan line at a time, one every n ticks (I'm not
> at my PC so can't tell you exactly what I'm using) counting from the
> vertical sync.  There was a bit of discussion on one of the newsgroups
> sometime last year about how long each scan line should take given the PAL
> spec.  I'll see if I can find it again.

That is what I do - the scanline timing is calculated directly from the 
horizontal timing registers.  The vertical timing is also calculated that way - without
any bodging the timing in the high res modes comes out at exactly the time for
312 scanlines per field.

> 
> Also, as a point of information, IRQ and NMI have a 7 cycle delay before
> executing the next opcode.  This is from the opcode information by various
> people (it's on my web pages - see below).  This info documents the
> illegal opcode functions and details exactly how each instruction works.

I think that interrupt latency may be tonights problem.

Dave

From clr1@st-andrews.ac.uk Mon Jan 16 12:07:01 1995
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          id KAA01767 for bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk; Mon, 16 Jan 1995 10:47:19 GMT
Message-Id: <199501161047.KAA01767@icebox.mfltd.co.uk>
From: jfid@mfltd.co.uk (James Fidell)
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 10:47:16 +0000
In-Reply-To: Chris Rae's note of Jan 15, 6:23pm
To: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk
Subject: Re: OSFSC call A = 13
Status: RO

Chris Rae wrote:

> Hmm!
> 
> > Which is a complete load of crap.  It does no such thing.  Ignore me
> > for the moment -- my brain is playing tricks on me.
> 
> Now I looked at the time on this message, and it looked suspiciously near 
> 11:30. On a saturday night, yes?
> 
> I don't suppose that there was anything in particular affecting your 
> brain, hmm?

Only tiredness, I think -- the reason I was hacking the beeb emulator at
that time on a Saturday night was an attempt to make myself stay in (I
had to get up early Sunday morning to go dry-slope skiing).

James.

-- 
 "Yield to temptation --             |     jfid@mfltd.co.uk
  it may not pass your way again"    |  http://www.mfltd.co.uk/~jfid/
                                     |
        - Lazarus Long               |              James Fidell

From clr1@st-andrews.ac.uk Mon Jan 16 12:06:49 1995
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Date: Sun, 15 Jan 1995 18:23:31 +0000 (GMT)
From: Chris Rae <clr1>
Subject: Re: OSFSC call A = 13
To: James Fidell <jfid@mfltd.co.uk>
Cc: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk
In-Reply-To: <199501142326.XAA13977@icebox.mfltd.co.uk>
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Status: RO

Hmm!

> Which is a complete load of crap.  It does no such thing.  Ignore me
> for the moment -- my brain is playing tricks on me.

Now I looked at the time on this message, and it looked suspiciously near 
11:30. On a saturday night, yes?

I don't suppose that there was anything in particular affecting your 
brain, hmm?

;-)

Chris

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
This account has been given, on demand, to an inmate of Parkhurst
prison, Isle of Wight. Please ignore any requests for rope ladders,
keys or small arms. Thank you.                              HM Govt.



From clr1@st-andrews.ac.uk Sun Jan 15 18:23:18 1995
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Message-Id: <199501142326.XAA13977@icebox.mfltd.co.uk>
From: jfid@mfltd.co.uk (James Fidell)
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 1995 23:26:47 +0000
In-Reply-To: James Fidell's note of Jan 14, 11:07pm
To: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk, bbc-list@ohm.york.ac.uk
Subject: Re: OSFSC call A = 13
Status: RO

I wrote:

> Working on an rough emulated filing system for my beeb emulator,
> I'm getting calls to OSFSC with A = 13 when the tape filing system is
> enabled.  These don't appear to be documented in the AUG.  Does anyone
> know what they do ?

Which is a complete load of crap.  It does no such thing.  Ignore me
for the moment -- my brain is playing tricks on me.

James.

-- 
 "Yield to temptation --             |     jfid@mfltd.co.uk
  it may not pass your way again"    |  http://www.mfltd.co.uk/~jfid/
                                     |
        - Lazarus Long               |              James Fidell

From clr1@st-andrews.ac.uk Sun Jan 15 18:23:03 1995
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From: jfid@mfltd.co.uk (James Fidell)
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 1995 23:07:10 +0000
To: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk, bbc-list@ohm.york.ac.uk
Subject: OSFSC call A = 13
Status: RO

Working on an rough emulated filing system for my beeb emulator,
I'm getting calls to OSFSC with A = 13 when the tape filing system is
enabled.  These don't appear to be documented in the AUG.  Does anyone
know what they do ?

Thanks,
James.

-- 
 "Yield to temptation --             |     jfid@mfltd.co.uk
  it may not pass your way again"    |  http://www.mfltd.co.uk/~jfid/
                                     |
        - Lazarus Long               |              James Fidell

From clr1@st-andrews.ac.uk Wed Jan 11 00:22:58 1995
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From: Mark Cooke <ee2015@bristol.ac.uk>
Message-Id: <9501101849.AA13761@kestrel.fen.bris.ac.uk>
Subject: Message Archiving
To: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk (Beeb Group)
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 18:49:41 +0000 (GMT)
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Status: RO

Hi everyone,

Hope you all had a great Xmas.

I propose to archive messages to the mailing list and make them available
via anonymous ftp and web access.  Does anyone have any strong objections
to this?

Also, to mac users on the list, sorry that the ftp server with Chris'
emulator on it is down.  It should be back online on Saturday morning. 
The server appears to have been turned off - directly contrary to the
instructions glued to the front of the machine!

Mark

+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Mark Cooke                 |    Email : ee2015@bristol.ac.uk          |
|----------------------------+------------------------------------------|
| bbc-emu-request@bristol.ac.uk - Home of the BBC Emulator Mailing list |
|   URL :  http://kestrel.fen.bris.ac.uk/students/ee2015/Welcome.html   |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+

From clr1@st-andrews.ac.uk Wed Jan  4 00:32:10 1995
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Date: Tue, 3 Jan 95 19:10:41 GMT
From: David Alan Gilbert <gilbertd@cs.man.ac.uk>
Message-Id: <9501031910.AA21000@r8ad.cs.man.ac.uk>
To: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk
Subject: Beeb emulator - elite runs!
Status: RO

Hi,
Christmas and New Year brought time for lots of coding - before my
PC's video stuff broke!
Anyway I've now got elite going (with split screen) under X, and I've
improved the speed (a bit - not blindingly!).

I'll try and find an ftp site to put it on around here (it shouldn't
be too hard) and then I'll mail you all and tell
you where it is.

Dave (gilbertd@cs.man.ac.uk)

From pmorrisb@cix.compulink.co.uk Sun Jan 29 15:23:52 1995
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          for bbc-emu@Bristol.ac.uk; Sun, 29 Jan 1995 15:19:30 GMT
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 95 15:22 GMT
From: pmorrisb@cix.compulink.co.uk (Phil Morris)
Subject: Re: ROM images
To: bbc-emu@Bristol.ac.uk
Cc: pmorrisb@cix.compulink.co.uk
Reply-To: pmorrisb@cix.compulink.co.uk
Message-Id: <memo.164985@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Status: RO

In-Reply-To: <9501271810.AA01337@kestrel.fen.bris.ac.uk>
> Hi everyone,
> 
> > I'd really like to get Dave's X-based Beeb emulator running - would 
> > anyone be kind enough to UUEncode and email me disk images of the 8271 
> > DNFS/DFS, BASIC and O/S 1.2 please?
> 
> Um.  I only need the 8271 D(N)FS.  Could someone either UU it, or ftp it
> to blue.bad.bris.ac.uk in /incoming pls.

Would it maybe a good idea to put all the relevant ROM images here, or 
could this be construed as illegal?
> 
> On a side note to Dave - there appears to be a problem compiling under
> linux.  Which version of gcc did you use?  video.cc throws a fit :-

This is interesting as I've just ordered the Slackware 2.1 Linux for my PC 
- will I have this problem as well, or does Slackware have the correct 
version of the compiler?


TVM,
Phil



From ee2015@Bristol.ac.uk Sun Jan 29 17:21:05 1995
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From: Mark Cooke <ee2015@bristol.ac.uk>
Message-Id: <9501291720.AA11434@kestrel.fen.bris.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: ROM images
To: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk (Beeb Group)
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 1995 17:20:36 +0000 (GMT)
Reply-To: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk (Beeb Group)
In-Reply-To: <memo.164985@cix.compulink.co.uk> from "Phil Morris" at Jan 29, 95 03:22:00 pm
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Status: RO

Hi Phil,

> > > I'd really like to get Dave's X-based Beeb emulator running - would 
> > > anyone be kind enough to UUEncode and email me disk images of the 8271 
> > > DNFS/DFS, BASIC and O/S 1.2 please?
> > 
> > Um.  I only need the 8271 D(N)FS.  Could someone either UU it, or ftp it
> > to blue.bad.bris.ac.uk in /incoming pls.
> 
> Would it maybe a good idea to put all the relevant ROM images here, or 
> could this be construed as illegal?

If everyone could access them yes.  Acorn (still) won't release the roms
into the public domain.   If you have a beeb, there is no problem
apparently.  I really don't see how Acorn expect to make money from the
bbc roms anyway, so I don't know how they justify not releasing them.

Anyone know anyone at Acorn with some muscle?

> > On a side note to Dave - there appears to be a problem compiling under
> > linux.  Which version of gcc did you use?  video.cc throws a fit :-
> 
> This is interesting as I've just ordered the Slackware 2.1 Linux for my PC 
> - will I have this problem as well, or does Slackware have the correct 
> version of the compiler?
> 
Nope.  Slackware 2.1 has gcc 2.5.8  However, I did manage to modify the
code slightly so it does actually compile with 2.5.8  Dave has the mods I
made, so a patch may appear.  If not, you can always mail me.

Note, that it also requires libc.2.6.x and Slackware 2.1 is distributed
with 2.5.26 (I think).  The new libc can be ftp's and put in /lib, and
then you just run ldconfig to use the new library.

Mark

+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Mark Cooke                 |    Email : ee2015@bristol.ac.uk          |
|----------------------------+------------------------------------------|
|      Badock Hall Network Representative & Data Safety Officer         |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
| bbc-emu-request@bristol.ac.uk - Home of the BBC Emulator Mailing list |
|   URL :  http://kestrel.fen.bris.ac.uk/students/ee2015/Welcome.html   |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+

From ee2015@Bristol.ac.uk Mon Jan 30 10:03:12 1995
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From: Mark Cooke <ee2015@bristol.ac.uk>
Message-Id: <9501301002.AA15962@kestrel.fen.bris.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: ROM images
To: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk (Beeb Group)
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 10:02:13 +0000 (GMT)
Reply-To: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk (Beeb Group)
In-Reply-To: <memo.167413@cix.compulink.co.uk> from "Phil Morris" at Jan 29, 95 07:36:00 pm
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Status: RO

Hi Everyone,

> > > Would it maybe a good idea to put all the relevant ROM images here, or 
> > > could this be construed as illegal?  [here being blue.bad.bris.ac.uk]
> > 
> > If everyone could access them yes.  Acorn (still) won't release the roms
> > into the public domain.   If you have a beeb, there is no problem
> > apparently.  I really don't see how Acorn expect to make money from the
> > bbc roms anyway, so I don't know how they justify not releasing them.
> 
> Well, as most of us own Beebs, surely it would be legal to put them up for 
> our own private use?

Well, I suppose I could create an account on my server on the net, and
have it password protected for the people on my list who say they have
beebs.  This would not be public access, but I'm still not sure about the
legality.  Anyone know?  

Mark

+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
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From amh15@cus.cam.ac.uk Mon Jan 30 10:49:58 1995
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From: amh15@cus.cam.ac.uk (Alan Hart)
Subject: Re: ROM images
To: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 10:48:33 +0000 (GMT)
In-Reply-To: <9501301002.AA15962@kestrel.fen.bris.ac.uk> from "Mark Cooke" at Jan 30, 95 10:02:13 am
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> Well, I suppose I could create an account on my server on the net, and
> have it password protected for the people on my list who say they have
> beebs.  This would not be public access, but I'm still not sure about the
> legality.  Anyone know?  

You could have it password protected, with the password being constructed 
from some peeks from the BBC ROMs. This somewhat defeats the objective, but 
at least it would be better than having to get a serial cable made up.

Alan

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Hart - amh15@cam.ac.uk - Cambridge University, UK - +44 1223 515460
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From gilbertd@cs.man.ac.uk Mon Jan 30 10:57:01 1995
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Date: Mon, 30 Jan 95 10:55:04 GMT
From: David Alan Gilbert <gilbertd@cs.man.ac.uk>
Message-Id: <9501301055.AA14690@amu5.cs.man.ac.uk>
To: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk
Subject: Bug fix for my emulator (for gcc pre 2.6.0), and binary
Status: RO

Hi,
Mark Cooke has found a compile problem with my emulator under versions
of gcc prior to 2.6.0

I have solved this in two ways.  I have placed a precompiled binary
for lines (staticly linked) in /pub/beeb/precompiled on alife1.cs.man.ac.uk
- although I haven't tried it.

The fix which gets around the compilation problem (kindly provided by Mark)
is to change line 410-412 which presently read:

  LineRoutine=(VideoULA_ControlReg & 0x10)?LowLevelDoScanLineNarrow:LowLevelDoScanLineWide;
} else {
  LineRoutine=(VideoULA_ControlReg & 0x10)?LowLevelDoScanLineNarrowNot4Bytes:LowLevelDoScanLineWideNot4Bytes;

to

  LineRoutine=(VideoULA_ControlReg & 0x10)?(LineRoutinePtr)LowLevelDoScanLineNarrow:(LineRoutinePtr)LowLevelDoScanLineWide;
} else {
  LineRoutine=(VideoULA_ControlReg & 0x10)?(LineRoutinePtr)LowLevelDoScanLineNarrowNot4Bytes:(LineRoutinePtr)LowLevelDoScanLineWideNot4Bytes;

I recommend anyway that if you have 2.5.8 you upgrade since it has a number of bugs.
For Linux you can get precompiled versions of gcc (which also meen upgrading your library) 
I just recompiled it from source.

Dave

From pmorrisb@cix.compulink.co.uk Mon Jan 30 10:59:44 1995
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Date: Mon, 30 Jan 95 10:57 GMT
From: pmorrisb@cix.compulink.co.uk (Phil Morris)
Subject: Re: ROM images
To: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk
Cc: pmorrisb@cix.compulink.co.uk
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In-Reply-To: <9501301011.AA16484@kestrel.fen.bris.ac.uk>
Hi Mark,


> > Could you email me the mods you made please? :-) I presume they don't 
> > affect the running of the code?
> 
> Well, it won't compile if you don't!  The mods are to line 410 of video.cc

<Snip!>  

Many thanks. Will try this as soon as my Linux CD-ROMs arrive. :-)

> 
> Enjoy.  I've not managed to get it going yet, 'cause my rom images are
> slightly modified and my DFS is a 1770 one. :-( 

And still no-one has offered a copy of the 8271 D(N)FS ..... surely someone 
reading this could upload a copy to Mark's site?


Thanks,
Phil


From pmorrisb@cix.compulink.co.uk Mon Jan 30 10:59:56 1995
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Date: Mon, 30 Jan 95 10:57 GMT
From: pmorrisb@cix.compulink.co.uk (Phil Morris)
Subject: Re: ROM images
To: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk
Cc: pmorrisb@cix.compulink.co.uk
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Message-Id: <memo.174698@cix.compulink.co.uk>
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In-Reply-To: <9501301002.AA15962@kestrel.fen.bris.ac.uk>

> > Well, as most of us own Beebs, surely it would be legal to put them up 
> > for our own private use?
> 
> Well, I suppose I could create an account on my server on the net, and
> have it password protected for the people on my list who say they have
> beebs.  This would not be public access, but I'm still not sure about the
> legality.  Anyone know?  

I really don't see how it could be illegal if only legitimate Beeb owners 
had access to it. Still, some companies might get stroppy - how are Acorn 
on this type of thing? Are they very protective about their code?


Phil


From jkb@mrc-lmb.cam.ac.uk Mon Jan 30 11:35:33 1995
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From: Bonfield James <jkb@mrc-lmb.cam.ac.uk>
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Message-Id: <9501301134.AA02265@alf1.mrc-lmb.cam.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: ROM images
To: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 11:34:22 +0000 (GMT)
In-Reply-To: <memo.174697@cix.compulink.co.uk> from "Phil Morris" at Jan 30, 95 10:57:00 am
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>And still no-one has offered a copy of the 8271 D(N)FS ..... surely someone 
>reading this could upload a copy to Mark's site?
>
>Thanks,
>Phil

I used the Watford DFS (V1.43) with it and didn't have any errors from disc
access. However whenever I press a key I get "-ve key trans row=1col=0sym=0"
type of messages. This was on a DEC Alpha system running OSF/1 V3.0.

Anyway, regarding the roms, I can hardly make the watford DFS available as
this most definitely isn't a 'standard' rom that comes default with beebs
kitted out with a disk drive (although it is infact a very good DFS). The same
really applies for the BBC I guess. Just having a BBC doesn't imply you've got
the acorn 8271 DFS chip. There was a free DFS that someone wrote (it's at
Ian's site I think) which may well work well enough to be suitable. I haven't
tried it though.

I think the solution mentioned of encrypting with a password would work.
Although there still is the problem of whether you're then making a "derived
work" available to people which is also illegal I think.

I tried to contact acorn about this (well, the Basic rom and the OS infact)
matter well over a year ago and was fobbed off from person to person. When I
finally found the (supposedly) correct person to talk to (David Bell as I
recall) I received a reply saying that I should state my intentions clearly
and they'd think about things. I never received a reply to my 'statement' or
to any of my subsequent queries. Pretty hopeless really.

As for the fact that distributing this code isn't going to effect acorn - in
their eyes it will. They have a market for BBC emulators that they are
currently exploiting (ie the !65Host or whatever it's called on the Arc).
	
	James

From ee2015@Bristol.ac.uk Mon Jan 30 11:08:02 1995
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From: Mark Cooke <ee2015@bristol.ac.uk>
Message-Id: <9501301106.AA19430@kestrel.fen.bris.ac.uk>
Subject: List Archives
To: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk (Beeb Group)
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Hi Everyone,

Archives of the list are available via my web pages (see URL in the .sig)
Thanks to Chris Rae for providing archives back to Oct.  Earlier archives
will be available in the near future.

Mark

+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Mark Cooke                 |    Email : ee2015@bristol.ac.uk          |
|----------------------------+------------------------------------------|
| bbc-emu-request@bristol.ac.uk - Home of the BBC Emulator Mailing list |
|   URL :  http://kestrel.fen.bris.ac.uk/students/ee2015/Welcome.html   |
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From jkb@mrc-lmb.cam.ac.uk Mon Jan 30 13:37:32 1995
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From: Bonfield James <jkb@mrc-lmb.cam.ac.uk>
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Message-Id: <9501301335.AA22843@alf1.mrc-lmb.cam.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Re : ROM Images and Acorn
To: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 13:35:09 +0000 (GMT)
In-Reply-To: <9501301311.AA26280@kestrel.fen.bris.ac.uk> from "Mark Cooke" at Jan 30, 95 01:11:24 pm
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Hello,

>Do you have a contact address for anyone at Acorn.  Maybe if we get a
>concerted effort together something will happen.

The address I ended up with was dbell@acorn.co.uk. I can't check that as the
machine with the relevant file on is down at present. Anyway he wasn't very
helpful. I think his initial comments were that licensing BASIC is possible
(and had been done) but no one had ever used their OS before. That's when he
asked for a complete description of my wishes, and when he didn't reply. As I
recall several others on the list have mailed Acorn with no success too.

>Oh yeh.  People are going to buy a Risc PC to run their old beeb software on.
>Right.  Even if this were so, do Acorn really sell such a small volume
>that this is going to make a difference?  Last I heard, !65Host didn't run
>on the Risc PC, and couldn't deal with many of the old beeb games.

I agree with you there, but it's more a case of people with Archimedes
presumably want a beeb emulator and Acorn don't want someone else writing a
better emulator (which probably isn't that hard so I've heard) :)

Anyway, as far as I remember someone _did_ write a better emulator (Gary
Partis I think) that could play Elite and Revs fine. This was YEARS ago, but
it mysteriously vanished into obscurity and was never heard of again. I heard
about it in the games section of one of the beeb mags (acorn user I think).
Maybe acorn were being uppity; who knows.

	James

From D.LODGE@UK03.wins.icl.co.uk Mon Jan 30 13:34:37 1995
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Subject:  Re: Acorn ROMS                                               
Status: RO

I find all this hard to believe. I *think* that Acorn said that they weren't
supporting !65Host any longer... Also as !65Host is free (when you buy an Arc)
then how can acorn make money from selling it?

rgds

dave

From ee2015@Bristol.ac.uk Mon Jan 30 13:12:07 1995
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From: Mark Cooke <ee2015@bristol.ac.uk>
Message-Id: <9501301311.AA26280@kestrel.fen.bris.ac.uk>
Subject: Re : ROM Images and Acorn
To: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk (Beeb Group)
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 13:11:24 +0000 (GMT)
Reply-To: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk (Beeb Group)
In-Reply-To: <9501301134.AA02265@alf1.mrc-lmb.cam.ac.uk> from "Bonfield James" at Jan 30, 95 11:34:22 am
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Hi All,

Well, I was just considering providing a directroy on my ftp site, which
you need to 'site group beeb' 'site gpass password' to have access.  Only
people I know have beebs (or I trust :-) ) get to know the password.

> I think the solution mentioned of encrypting with a password would work.
> Although there still is the problem of whether you're then making a "derived
> work" available to people which is also illegal I think.

This would not encrypt the files, but make them unavailable for general
access.  Possibly skirting on illegal though.

> I tried to contact acorn about this (well, the Basic rom and the OS infact)
> matter well over a year ago and was fobbed off from person to person. When I
> finally found the (supposedly) correct person to talk to (David Bell as I
> recall) I received a reply saying that I should state my intentions clearly
> and they'd think about things. I never received a reply to my 'statement' or
> to any of my subsequent queries. Pretty hopeless really.

Do you have a contact address for anyone at Acorn.  Maybe if we get a
concerted effort together something will happen.

> As for the fact that distributing this code isn't going to effect acorn - in
> their eyes it will. They have a market for BBC emulators that they are
> currently exploiting (ie the !65Host or whatever it's called on the Arc).

Flame On :

Oh yeh.  People are going to buy a Risc PC to run their old beeb software on.
Right.  Even if this were so, do Acorn really sell such a small volume
that this is going to make a difference?  Last I heard, !65Host didn't run
on the Risc PC, and couldn't deal with many of the old beeb games.

Flame Off:

Mark

+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Mark Cooke                 |    Email : ee2015@bristol.ac.uk          |
|----------------------------+------------------------------------------|
| bbc-emu-request@bristol.ac.uk - Home of the BBC Emulator Mailing list |
|   URL :  http://kestrel.fen.bris.ac.uk/students/ee2015/Welcome.html   |
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From ee2015@Bristol.ac.uk Mon Jan 30 13:48:30 1995
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From: Mark Cooke <ee2015@bristol.ac.uk>
Message-Id: <9501301347.AA28765@kestrel.fen.bris.ac.uk>
Subject: Acorn contacts
To: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk (Beeb Group)
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 13:47:32 +0000 (GMT)
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Hi everyone,

Hum, I was forgetting we have our very own contact at Acorn on the mailing
list : wturner@acorn.co.uk

So, can I put the question to him/her :

What is Acorn's offical position on the BBC rom images?  Who should we speak
to?  Who creates policy at Acorn now?

Mark

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From @aston.ac.uk:lamcw@sun.aston.ac.uk Mon Jan 30 13:48:32 1995
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Another point is that Human Computer Interfaces (HCI) are still selling
2 commercial products for the Mac. One is a so-called BBC Emulator
and another is a souped up BBC BASIC programming package. These sell
for about 35 and 150 quid respectively.

You can't have someone coming along and writing one for the Mac and
then giving it away (ROMs and all) for free, can you?


Chris Lam.


From ee2015@Bristol.ac.uk Mon Jan 30 13:55:59 1995
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From: Mark Cooke <ee2015@bristol.ac.uk>
Message-Id: <9501301355.AA29400@kestrel.fen.bris.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Acorn Images
To: lamcw@sun.aston.ac.uk (lamcw)
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Hi everyone,

> Another point is that Human Computer Interfaces (HCI) are still selling
> 2 commercial products for the Mac. One is a so-called BBC Emulator
> and another is a souped up BBC BASIC programming package. These sell
> for about 35 and 150 quid respectively.

Does anybody buy them though?  Again, although releasing the images PD may
cause this company a slight loss of revenue, if they depend only on this
for income they're flogging a dead duck anyway.

> You can't have someone coming along and writing one for the Mac and
> then giving it away (ROMs and all) for free, can you?

A fairly silly solution :

If Acorn continue to hold on to the roms, maybe we should start a project
to write a new Basic and OS.  Currently my emulator breaks out of the rom
at various points anyway to execute native routines.  Maybe this can be
extended to a new implementation.  I dread to think quite how long this
would take, and how many games it would break though.  Just moving from
the B to the Master caused enough problems - rewriting the OS with 'clean'
code is probably more trouble than its worth.

Mark

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From ee2015@Bristol.ac.uk Mon Jan 30 14:15:26 1995
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From: Mark Cooke <ee2015@bristol.ac.uk>
Message-Id: <9501301414.AA00313@kestrel.fen.bris.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: ROM images
To: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk (Beeb Group)
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 14:14:37 +0000 (GMT)
Reply-To: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk (Beeb Group)
In-Reply-To: <memo.177956@cix.compulink.co.uk> from "Phil Morris" at Jan 30, 95 02:09:00 pm
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Hi,

>> As for the fact that distributing this code isn't going to effect acorn - in
>> their eyes it will. They have a market for BBC emulators that they are
>> currently exploiting (ie the !65Host or whatever it's called on the Arc).
> 
> But !65Host only works on the Arc, so surely they won't object to a few 
> other hardware bases running a Beeb emulator?
> 
But think of all the people who wouldn't buy an Arc :-)

Mark

From pmorrisb@cix.compulink.co.uk Mon Jan 30 14:10:41 1995
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Date: Mon, 30 Jan 95 14:09 GMT
From: pmorrisb@cix.compulink.co.uk (Phil Morris)
Subject: Re: ROM images
To: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk
Cc: pmorrisb@cix.compulink.co.uk
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In-Reply-To: <9501301134.AA02265@alf1.mrc-lmb.cam.ac.uk>

> I used the Watford DFS (V1.43) with it and didn't have any errors from 
> disc
> access. However whenever I press a key I get "-ve key trans 
> row=1col=0sym=0"
> type of messages. This was on a DEC Alpha system running OSF/1 V3.0.

Do you think this is as a result of using the Watford DFS, or a problem 
with the Beeb emulator?

> 
> Anyway, regarding the roms, I can hardly make the watford DFS available as
> this most definitely isn't a 'standard' rom that comes default with beebs
> kitted out with a disk drive (although it is infact a very good DFS). The 
> same

Good point. :)

> really applies for the BBC I guess. Just having a BBC doesn't imply 
> you've got
> the acorn 8271 DFS chip. There was a free DFS that someone wrote (it's at
> Ian's site I think) which may well work well enough to be suitable. I 
> haven't
> tried it though.

Has anyone tried this?
> 
> I think the solution mentioned of encrypting with a password would work.
> Although there still is the problem of whether you're then making a 
> "derived
> work" available to people which is also illegal I think.

Oh dear .................... :(
> 
> I tried to contact acorn about this (well, the Basic rom and the OS 
> infact)
> matter well over a year ago and was fobbed off from person to person. 

Isn't this the usual way? :(

> When I
> finally found the (supposedly) correct person to talk to (David Bell as I
> recall) I received a reply saying that I should state my intentions 
> clearly
> and they'd think about things. I never received a reply to my 'statement' 
> or
> to any of my subsequent queries. Pretty hopeless really.

You'd almost think they couldn't be bothered .......................
> 
> As for the fact that distributing this code isn't going to effect acorn - 
> in
> their eyes it will. They have a market for BBC emulators that they are
> currently exploiting (ie the !65Host or whatever it's called on the Arc).

But !65Host only works on the Arc, so surely they won't object to a few 
other hardware bases running a Beeb emulator?


Phil


From @aston.ac.uk:lamcw@sun.aston.ac.uk Mon Jan 30 14:24:40 1995
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Mark wrote:

;> Another point is that Human Computer Interfaces (HCI) are still selling
;> 2 commercial products for the Mac. One is a so-called BBC Emulator
;> and another is a souped up BBC BASIC programming package. These sell
;> for about 35 and 150 quid respectively.

;Does anybody buy them though?  Again, although releasing the images PD may
;cause this company a slight loss of revenue, if they depend only on this
;for income they're flogging a dead duck anyway.

Maybe schools/colleges. You can buy Think C or Think Pascal for cheaper!
Or CodeWarrior (68k) for 69 quid! These are THE programming environments 
for the Mac. So yes, I agree with you, definitely a dead duck.


;If Acorn continue to hold on to the roms, maybe we should start a project
;to write a new Basic and OS.  

I'll pass on this one!


;Currently my emulator breaks out of the romat various points anyway to 
;execute native routines.

It's very straight forward to extend BBC Basic so it can access Unix/Mac/PC
calls. Once BASIC is up and running, you do have a programming system in which
you can do some useful stuff.


Chris.


From pmorrisb@cix.compulink.co.uk Mon Jan 30 15:20:08 1995
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From: pmorrisb@cix.compulink.co.uk (Phil Morris)
Subject: Re: ROM images
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In-Reply-To: <9501301414.AA00313@kestrel.fen.bris.ac.uk>

> > But !65Host only works on the Arc, so surely they won't object to a few 
> > other hardware bases running a Beeb emulator?
> > 
> But think of all the people who wouldn't buy an Arc :-)

Yeah, right, I hadn't thought of that ........................... ;-))



Phil




From amh15@cus.cam.ac.uk Mon Jan 30 15:21:41 1995
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From: amh15@cus.cam.ac.uk (Alan Hart)
Subject: Re: Re : ROM Images and Acorn
To: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 15:20:55 +0000 (GMT)
In-Reply-To: <9501301311.AA26280@kestrel.fen.bris.ac.uk> from "Mark Cooke" at Jan 30, 95 01:11:24 pm
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> This would not encrypt the files, but make them unavailable for general
> access.  Possibly skirting on illegal though.

Aha! But PKZIP does allow for file encryption with a password. So it could be 
done.

Alan

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Hart - amh15@cam.ac.uk - Cambridge University, UK - +44 1223 515460
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From @aston.ac.uk:lamcw@sun.aston.ac.uk Mon Jan 30 15:21:00 1995
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Not exactly Beeb related but who won? I couldn't be bothered to 
watch the 2nd half. I just bought a paper and it didn't
carry it.

Dave: Our resident Unix guru couldn't compile your code. I'll
give him some of the relevant email.


Chris.


From wturner@acorn.co.uk Mon Jan 30 13:59:36 1995
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Date: Mon, 30 Jan 95 13:57:10 GMT
From: wturner@acorn.co.uk (William Turner)
To: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Acorn contacts (Mon Jan 30 13:47:32 1995)
Message-Id: <2F2CF036@wturner>
In-Reply-To: <9501301347.AA28765@kestrel.fen.bris.ac.uk>
Status: RO

> Hi everyone,
> 
> Hum, I was forgetting we have our very own contact at Acorn on the mailing
> list : wturner@acorn.co.uk

Urk, I was hoping to stay out of this! :-)

> So, can I put the question to him/her :

Definitely 'him'.
 
> What is Acorn's offical position on the BBC rom images?  Who should we speak
> to?  Who creates policy at Acorn now?

I've just been round to the customer services department
(customer.services@acorn.co.uk), and talked to Dave Walker. He is
unsure of the situation (ie whose decision it is), so I shall
follow up other leads. Once I find out who the person to contact is,
I shall post my findings back to the list. I suspect it might
be best if one person acts as spokesman though (not me as I am not
actually writing an emulator)

> Mark
> 

William


From clr1@st-andrews.ac.uk Mon Jan 30 19:17:02 1995
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Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 17:02:26 +0000 (GMT)
From: Chris Rae <clr1@st-andrews.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Re : ROM Images and Acorn
To: Alan Hart <amh15@cus.cam.ac.uk>
Cc: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk
In-Reply-To: <m0rYxuT-0007ahC@grus.cus.cam.ac.uk>
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Thought I'd give my tuppence worth seeing as everyone else has. I've 
picked this msg to reply to but it's relevant to most of them.

For those of you who weren't on the list from the start, we've actually 
had a similar discussion to this before but nobody decided to release any 
code. Check out the newly-formed archives, maybe. Or are they the ones I 
haven't sent Mark yet? Oop...

> > This would not encrypt the files, but make them unavailable for general
> > access.  Possibly skirting on illegal though.
> 
> Aha! But PKZIP does allow for file encryption with a password. So it could be 
> done.

I don't really think this is the point. The thing is, say we were all 
writing a program which read AutoCad version 1 files. I mean, AutoCad 1 
was superceded donkey's years ago and the chances are a lot of us would 
have it already but there is no way you could release the program. It is 
still protected by (C), like the BBC ROMs.

With all due respect, the issue of whether or not the BBC ROMs are useful 
or not is not really relevant; it's the fact that they are copyrighted 
material and therefore you cannot copy them. I mean, just because a 
program that tested the reaction of rats to early 1960s sitcoms wasn't 
really useful doesn't mean to say we can distribute it willy-nilly to 
everyone who might have it already on another system.

This is a personal view and I don't know the detailed ins and outs of 
copyright, so I could well be wrong. However, it looks pretty sound to 
me; BBC ROMs = (C) = no (C)ing.

;-)

Chris

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
We take a handful of sand from the endless landscape of awareness
around us and call that handful of sand the world.
       - Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance



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Message-Id: <9501302058.AA09878@kestrel.fen.bris.ac.uk>
Subject: Re : Roms and (C)
To: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk (Beeb Group)
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 20:58:50 +0000 (GMT)
Reply-To: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk (Beeb Group)
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Hi Chris,

> For those of you who weren't on the list from the start, we've actually 
> had a similar discussion to this before but nobody decided to release any 
> code. Check out the newly-formed archives, maybe. Or are they the ones I 
> haven't sent Mark yet? Oops...

:-)  yep.  They predate the ones I've archived - but I was about and just
about remember the discussion we had.

> > > This would not encrypt the files, but make them unavailable for general
> > > access.  Possibly skirting on illegal though.
> > 
> > Aha! But PKZIP does allow for file encryption with a password. So it could be 
> > done.
> 
> I don't really think this is the point. The thing is, say we were all 
> writing a program which read AutoCad version 1 files. I mean, AutoCad 1 
> was superceded donkey's years ago and the chances are a lot of us would 
> have it already but there is no way you could release the program. It is 
> still protected by (C), like the BBC ROMs.
> 
I agree.  That's the reason I would put them in a protected directory,
which only people with beebs could access.  I know it's still not a great
solution, but sure beats making them world readable.  BTW What do you do if
your beeb bit the dust and you want to run your emulator?  Ask Acorn nicely
if they wouldn't mind sending you a copy of the roms?

> This is a personal view and I don't know the detailed ins and outs of 
> copyright, so I could well be wrong. However, it looks pretty sound to 
> me; BBC ROMs = (C) = no (C)ing.

Again yes, except people owning a beeb can use the roms.  Before I get
excessively worked up again, I should suggest that I have had some
feedback from Acorn and that we should wait and see what happens with this
latest request for them to release the roms into the public domain.

I suppose, worst case, people could find someone who has a copy of !65Host
on their arc, and nick the roms from that.  I could probably write a
program to fix the differences between the !65host and the original roms.
(!65Host modifies the codes to break out to native arm code so it runs a
bit quicker).

On a more serious note :

William (the nice man from Acorn) suggested that we should elect a
chairman for the group to put our case to the appropriate authority in
Acorn.  William is currently trying to locate that authority for us (as is
a friend who has a friend in customer services).

I don't mind doing this, but maybe it would sound better if one of the
gang who has released code/source were nominated.  We should try to get
our case together - number of people writing code, expected release as
pd/shareware/commercial, platform etc, just to show Acorn how big a user base
is involved.

I don't actually know what would be involved in Acorn releasing the images
as public domain, presumably they could just declare the images are free
for distribution, so long as they are kept in their original form.

Mark

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|----------------------------+------------------------------------------|
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From gilbertd@cs.man.ac.uk Tue Jan 31 10:36:46 1995
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Date: Tue, 31 Jan 95 10:35:49 GMT
From: David Alan Gilbert <gilbertd@cs.man.ac.uk>
Message-Id: <9501311035.AA16765@amu5.cs.man.ac.uk>
To: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Re : Roms and (C)
Status: RO

> Again yes, except people owning a beeb can use the roms.  Before I get
> excessively worked up again, I should suggest that I have had some
> feedback from Acorn and that we should wait and see what happens with this
> latest request for them to release the roms into the public domain.

I should note that we don't necessairly want Acorn to put them into the PD - they
may think that that is being too free with them.  As long as they make them available
on the net for people to use (under reasonable conditions) that is fine.
For example I could understand it if they would put it on there ftp site but
wouldn't let people redistribute it.

From wturner@acorn.co.uk Tue Jan 31 09:51:48 1995
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Date: Tue, 31 Jan 95 09:45:51 GMT
From: wturner@acorn.co.uk (William Turner)
To: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Re : Roms and (C) (Mon Jan 30 20:58:50 1995)
Message-Id: <2F2E06CF@wturner>
In-Reply-To: <9501302058.AA09878@kestrel.fen.bris.ac.uk>
Status: RO

> Hi Chris,
> 
> > For those of you who weren't on the list from the start, we've actually 
> > had a similar discussion to this before but nobody decided to release any 
> > code. Check out the newly-formed archives, maybe. Or are they the ones I 
> > haven't sent Mark yet? Oops...
> 
> :-)  yep.  They predate the ones I've archived - but I was about and just
> about remember the discussion we had.
>
> > > > This would not encrypt the files, but make them unavailable for general
> > > > access.  Possibly skirting on illegal though.
> > > 
> > > Aha! But PKZIP does allow for file encryption with a password. So it could be 
> > > done.
> > 
> > I don't really think this is the point. The thing is, say we were all 
> > writing a program which read AutoCad version 1 files. I mean, AutoCad 1 
> > was superceded donkey's years ago and the chances are a lot of us would 
> > have it already but there is no way you could release the program. It is 
> > still protected by (C), like the BBC ROMs.
> > 
> I agree.  That's the reason I would put them in a protected directory,
> which only people with beebs could access.  I know it's still not a great
> solution, but sure beats making them world readable.  BTW What do you do if
> your beeb bit the dust and you want to run your emulator?  Ask Acorn nicely
> if they wouldn't mind sending you a copy of the roms?

Well, from having a preliminary chat with Developer Support, it would appear that
the BBC ROM code is covered by a licence agreement that they should not be used
outside of the equipment in which they were provided (ie the BBC you bought). This
obviously makes their use in emulators illegal.
 
> > This is a personal view and I don't know the detailed ins and outs of 
> > copyright, so I could well be wrong. However, it looks pretty sound to 
> > me; BBC ROMs = (C) = no (C)ing.
> Again yes, except people owning a beeb can use the roms.  Before I get

Apparently not (see above)

> excessively worked up again, I should suggest that I have had some
> feedback from Acorn and that we should wait and see what happens with this
> latest request for them to release the roms into the public domain.
>
> I suppose, worst case, people could find someone who has a copy of !65Host
> on their arc, and nick the roms from that.  I could probably write a

Harrrggmmm <clears throat>. 'nicking' the !65Host code is just as bad as pinching
the BBC ROM code....(I think you'll find !65Host is covered by a similar licence-
ie no use of any of it's constituent parts outside of the application).

> program to fix the differences between the !65host and the original roms.
> (!65Host modifies the codes to break out to native arm code so it runs a
> bit quicker).
> 
> On a more serious note :
> 
> William (the nice man from Acorn) suggested that we should elect a

Flattery will get you nowhere :-). BTW I _did_ post to the emu list (at least,
I think I did...)

> chairman for the group to put our case to the appropriate authority in
> Acorn.  William is currently trying to locate that authority for us (as is
> a friend who has a friend in customer services).

Mark - Email me & tell me names....

> I don't mind doing this, but maybe it would sound better if one of the
> gang who has released code/source were nominated.  We should try to get
> our case together - number of people writing code, expected release as
> pd/shareware/commercial, platform etc, just to show Acorn how big a user base
> is involved.
> 
> I don't actually know what would be involved in Acorn releasing the images
> as public domain, presumably they could just declare the images are free
> for distribution, so long as they are kept in their original form.

Without giving too much away (as I am going to continue trying to get to
the bottom of this), there are more complex reasons why Acorn are reluctant
to release the ROM code...

William

From ee2015@Bristol.ac.uk Tue Jan 31 13:30:17 1995
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From: Mark Cooke <ee2015@bristol.ac.uk>
Message-Id: <9501311329.AA23407@kestrel.fen.bris.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Roms and (C)
To: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk (Beeb Group)
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 13:29:23 +0000 (GMT)
Reply-To: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk (Beeb Group)
In-Reply-To: <2F2E06CF@wturner> from "William Turner" at Jan 31, 95 09:45:51 am
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Hi all,

> Well, from having a preliminary chat with Developer Support, it would appear
> the BBC ROM code is covered by a licence agreement that they should not be
> used outside of the equipment in which they were provided (ie the BBC you
> bought). This obviously makes their use in emulators illegal.

Oh well.  Maybe we should all pack up and go home then.  After all, we
don't want our users to get locked up for infringment.  :-(  Seems a bit
tight of Acorn though.  Most of us have paid good money for a beeb back in
the old days...

Who wants to write an replacement OS?   :-)

> > > This is a personal view and I don't know the detailed ins and outs of 
> > > copyright, so I could well be wrong. However, it looks pretty sound to 
> > > me; BBC ROMs = (C) = no (C)ing.
> > Again yes, except people owning a beeb can use the roms.  Before I get
> Apparently not (see above)

Oh.  I'll have to check the archives for the last discussion, but i
thought we had confirmed that this was OK.  Maybe I'm misremembering the
discussion though.

> > I suppose, worst case, people could find someone who has a copy of !65Host
> > on their arc, and nick the roms from that.  I could probably write a
> 
> Harrrggmmm <clears throat>. 'nicking' the !65Host code is just as bad as
> pinching the BBC ROM code....(I think you'll find !65Host is covered by a
> similar licence-ie no use of any of it's constituent parts outside of
> the application).
 
'Twas a joke :-)  The !65Host roms are hacked about quite a lot anyway ;-)

> > On a more serious note :
> > William (the nice man from Acorn) suggested that we should elect a
> Flattery will get you nowhere :-). BTW I _did_ post to the emu list (at least,
> I think I did...)

You may well have done.  I didn't check the header for the message.  All
stuff sent to bbc-emu@bris.ac.uk goes to everyone,
bbc-emu-request@bris.ac.uk goes to me (as does stuff to ee2015@bris.ac.uk)
The list is fairly dumb.  If you can, check replies go to bbc-emu@bris
before you reply.  I send my mail to the list with the reply-to: field set
to bbc-emu@bris.ac.uk so anybody who doesn't check the header still posts
to the group.  (Mind you, I forget fairly often - Chris L. gets quite a
few double posts!)

> > chairman for the group to put our case to the appropriate authority in
> > Acorn.  William is currently trying to locate that authority for us (as is
> > a friend who has a friend in customer services).
> Mark - Email me & tell me names....

Well, my friend's name is James, but I don't know the name of the contact
in customer services.  I'll ask Jim when I see him next.

> > I don't actually know what would be involved in Acorn releasing the images
> > as public domain, presumably they could just declare the images are free
> > for distribution, so long as they are kept in their original form.
> Without giving too much away (as I am going to continue trying to get to
> the bottom of this), there are more complex reasons why Acorn are reluctant
> to release the ROM code...

Well, if we had a better grasp of them (I had heard Acorn was writing
another bbc-b emulator for the risc pc) maybe Acorn's position would be a
little easier to understand. :-)  If Acorn don't want to release the roms
generally, how about a free license to bundle them with the emulator?

Please keep plugging away for us William

Mark

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|----------------------------+------------------------------------------|
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From pmorrisb@cix.compulink.co.uk Tue Jan 31 14:46:43 1995
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Date: Tue, 31 Jan 95 14:44 GMT
From: pmorrisb@cix.compulink.co.uk (Phil Morris)
Subject: Re: Roms and (C)
To: bbc-emu@Bristol.ac.uk
Cc: pmorrisb@cix.compulink.co.uk
Reply-To: pmorrisb@cix.compulink.co.uk
Message-Id: <memo.200260@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Status: RO

In-Reply-To: <9501311329.AA23407@kestrel.fen.bris.ac.uk>

> Oh well.  Maybe we should all pack up and go home then.  After all, we
> don't want our users to get locked up for infringment.  :-(  Seems a bit
> tight of Acorn though.  Most of us have paid good money for a beeb back in
> the old days...

Agreed. And what about those that have written/are writing BBC Micro 
emulators - will their code only be usable by those who are 'illegally' 
using copied ROMs? 

Are any emulator writers seriously cheesed off by this, to the point they 
might stop work on their emulators? I sincerely hope not ........... :-(((

Still, there is hope ..... I mean, I know of a at least one DOS-based C64 
emulator that needs copyrighted Commodore ROMs to run, and it doesn't stop 
people using them. Maybe it's illegal, but people will still do it! :-)

> Well, if we had a better grasp of them (I had heard Acorn was writing
> another bbc-b emulator for the risc pc) maybe Acorn's position would be a
> little easier to understand. :-)  If Acorn don't want to release the roms
> generally, how about a free license to bundle them with the emulator?

Again, I agree - I don't see what possible harm this can do to Acorn. 
Still, that depends on the intransigence (or not as the case might be) of 
those who make these sort of decisions.

> 
> Please keep plugging away for us William

Seconded - please do! Our criticisms aren't aimed at you ............ :-)




Phil


From @aston.ac.uk:lamcw@sun.aston.ac.uk Tue Jan 31 15:19:04 1995
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Mark wrote:

;It was SF by 48 to 26 (I think).  Young passed for 6 TDs (record) - and
;was also MVP.

;It was a fairly boring second half - and I had a 9am lecture this morning
;(which I actuall magnaged to get to).

Yeah, looked like being a washout after the first two 49er touchdowns.
(49 - 26 to be really pedantic)




William Turner wrote:

;Without giving too much away (as I am going to continue trying to get to
;the bottom of this), there are more complex reasons why Acorn are reluctant
;to release the ROM code...

This is getting to the nitty-gritty. Maybe Acorn have contractual ties
with HCI (see earlier posts)



Chris Lam.


From ee2015@Bristol.ac.uk Tue Jan 31 15:29:28 1995
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From: Mark Cooke <ee2015@bristol.ac.uk>
Message-Id: <9501311528.AA27656@kestrel.fen.bris.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Contracts
To: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk (Beeb Group)
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 15:28:38 +0000 (GMT)
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Hi all,

> ;Without giving too much away (as I am going to continue trying to get to
> ;the bottom of this), there are more complex reasons why Acorn are reluctant
> ;to release the ROM code...
> This is getting to the nitty-gritty. Maybe Acorn have contractual ties
> with HCI (see earlier posts)

Well, if this is the case, a simple 'we're contractually tied' would help.
Maybe not all the roms are covered - Basic II & IV, OS 1.2 and the Master
OS etc.  Maybe we could upgrade our code to use roms which aren't covered?

Mark

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|----------------------------+------------------------------------------|
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From ee2015@Bristol.ac.uk Tue Jan 31 16:24:47 1995
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From: Mark Cooke <ee2015@bristol.ac.uk>
Message-Id: <9501311623.AA29910@kestrel.fen.bris.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Disk images
To: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk (Beeb Group)
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 16:23:53 +0000 (GMT)
Reply-To: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk (Beeb Group)
In-Reply-To: <9501301055.AA14690@amu5.cs.man.ac.uk> from "David Alan Gilbert" at Jan 30, 95 10:55:04 am
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Hi Dave,

Is it possible to startup BeebEm without a disk image?  I haven't got time
to prepare one - all my beeb games are now on PC format 3.5", with
directory information in separate files.  I'd like to play with it though
- I've found an old DFS I think will work, and have patched in the last 19
bytes of my original OS 1.2 rom.

It it can't - can you send a (blank) disk image to blue.bad.bris.ac.uk in
/incoming  It may be a good idea to supply this anyway, so people can play
about with the emulator, even if porting games to the image format is not
easy for them (me).

Mark

BTW.  I've installed gcc 2.6.3 now, and beebem compiles ok with it without
mods. :-)

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|----------------------------+------------------------------------------|
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From amh15@cus.cam.ac.uk Tue Jan 31 17:04:13 1995
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From: amh15@cus.cam.ac.uk (Alan Hart)
Subject: Re: Re : Roms and (C) (Mon Jan 30 20:58:50 1995)
To: wturner@acorn.co.uk (William Turner)
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 14:03:48 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk
In-Reply-To: <2F2E06CF@wturner> from "William Turner" at Jan 31, 95 09:45:51 am
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> Harrrggmmm <clears throat>. 'nicking' the !65Host code is just as bad as pinching
> the BBC ROM code....(I think you'll find !65Host is covered by a similar licence-
> ie no use of any of it's constituent parts outside of the application).

Well, no doubt you are right. However, I thought we were discussing the
legality of posting or making available the code in question. While it would, 
according to you, be illegal to _use_ the code, I doubt that it would be 
illegal to post a patch for the 65Host code, given that it would be a very 
small part of the original work (i.e. the BBC micro's OS1.2 and BASIC ROMs).

Since the use of all these emulators appears to be illegal anyway, we may as 
well scrap this mailing list and give up, according to you.

I await Acorn's decision with interest.

Alan

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Hart - amh15@cam.ac.uk - Cambridge University, UK - +44 1223 515460
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From ee2015@Bristol.ac.uk Tue Jan 31 17:05:11 1995
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From: Mark Cooke <ee2015@bristol.ac.uk>
Message-Id: <9501311704.AA01601@kestrel.fen.bris.ac.uk>
Subject: Checking Images are OK
To: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk (Beeb Group)
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 17:04:37 +0000 (GMT)
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Hi Everyone,

I'm having problems with Dave's emulator 'cause I recon my basic image is
corrupt.  Can someone write a quick proggie to add up every byte in the
image and let me know the result.

eg, from basic (on an emulator!) 

10 C% = 0
20 FOR L%=&8000 to &BFFF
30   C%= (C% + ?L%) AND &FF
40 NEXT L%
50 PRINT C%

Cheers

Mark

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| Mark Cooke                 |    Email : ee2015@bristol.ac.uk          |
|----------------------------+------------------------------------------|
| bbc-emu-request@bristol.ac.uk - Home of the BBC Emulator Mailing list |
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From wturner@acorn.co.uk Tue Jan 31 17:34:57 1995
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Date: Tue, 31 Jan 95 17:22:12 GMT
From: wturner@acorn.co.uk (William Turner)
To: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Roms and (C)
Message-Id: <2F2E71C4@wturner>
In-Reply-To: <m0rZJBR-0007aMC@grus.cus.cam.ac.uk>
Status: RO

> > Harrrggmmm <clears throat>. 'nicking' the !65Host code is just as bad as pinching
> > the BBC ROM code....(I think you'll find !65Host is covered by a similar licence-
> > ie no use of any of it's constituent parts outside of the application).
> 
> Well, no doubt you are right. However, I thought we were discussing the
> legality of posting or making available the code in question. While it would, 
> according to you, be illegal to _use_ the code, I doubt that it would be 
> illegal to post a patch for the 65Host code, given that it would be a very 
> small part of the original work (i.e. the BBC micro's OS1.2 and BASIC ROMs).

My guess is that it would be illegal to patch (derived works?). However, don't
jump on me for Acorn's decision - I have no say in these matters whatsoever. I'm
just covering my back (I've been hauled over the coals for 'inappropriate' postings
before & don't want it to happen again :-(

I still haven't managed to get hold of Dave Bell yet though, so I don't know what
the actual situation is at the moment (it may have been different while we were putting
!65Host on all our machines). So, be patient or only recommend theoretical courses
of action... :-)
 
> Since the use of all these emulators appears to be illegal anyway, we may as 
> well scrap this mailing list and give up, according to you.

According to me - no. According to Acorn - who can say? (not me, that's for sure)

> I await Acorn's decision with interest.

Ditto & I'll try & influence it if possible (I'm fed up of playing C64 Revs!)
 
> Alan

William

From amh15@cus.cam.ac.uk Tue Jan 31 18:01:34 1995
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From: amh15@cus.cam.ac.uk (Alan Hart)
Subject: Re: Roms and (C)
To: wturner@acorn.co.uk (William Turner)
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 18:00:30 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: bbc-emu@bristol.ac.uk
In-Reply-To: <2F2E71C4@wturner> from "William Turner" at Jan 31, 95 05:22:12 pm
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> My guess is that it would be illegal to patch (derived works?). However, don't
> jump on me for Acorn's decision - I have no say in these matters whatsoever. I'm
> just covering my back (I've been hauled over the coals for 'inappropriate' postings
> before & don't want it to happen again :-(

Sorry, William, I didn't mean to have a go at you. I was simply trying to 
point out that it's the _use_ of the emulators which appears to be illegal. 
I still think that it probably wouldn't be illegal to make a patch for 65Host
publicly available, just illegal to use it. But I could be wrong about that,
I think you'd have to ask a specialist lawyer. This whole business of writing
and using emulators appears (according to Acorn) to be illegal, but people
are continuing with it anyway, so I don't think we should worry too much here
about the consequences of _using_ the file in question, only the legality of
posting it somewhere.

Alan

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Hart - amh15@cam.ac.uk - Cambridge University, UK - +44 1223 515460
------------------------------------------------------------------------

