From mimsy!haven.umd.edu!darwin.sura.net!wupost!uunet!mcsun!uknet!axion!rtf.bt.co.uk!traub Wed Mar  4 13:55:17 EST 1992
Article: 15565 of rec.food.veg
Path: mimsy!haven.umd.edu!darwin.sura.net!wupost!uunet!mcsun!uknet!axion!rtf.bt.co.uk!traub
From: traub@rtf.bt.co.uk (Michael Traub)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: The rec.food.veg Most Frequently Asked Questions List
Message-ID: <1992Mar3.162650.8075@rtf.bt.co.uk>
Date: 3 Mar 92 16:26:50 GMT
References: <1992Mar2.013712.1615@acsu.buffalo.edu> <1992Mar2.084734.8279@rtf.bt.co.uk> <1992Mar2.211852.6643@clpd.kodak.com>
Organization: BT Customer Systems, Brighton, UK
Lines: 87

In article <1992Mar2.211852.6643@clpd.kodak.com> young@sasquatch.serum.kodak.com (Rich Young (x37176)) writes:
>traub@rtf.bt.co.uk (Michael Traub) writes:
>
>>So  much  for  my  posting  regarding  B12  creation  in  the intestine. It
>>doesn't  seem  to  have  made  it into the FAQ. I was also stupid enough to
>>have  not  kept  a  copy of the article I laboriously typed in. Does anyone
>>have a copy of the article that they can forward to the FAQ maintainer?
>
>	Actually, bacteria in the intestines DO produce small quantities of
>	B12; the problem is that:
>
>		1. B12 won't be absorbed without the presence of "intrinsic
>			factor", a compound produced in the stomach, and,
>
>		2. the bacteria in the gut which produce this small quantity
>			of B12 exist too far along in the gut to permit
>			absorption...what they make, you excrete.
>

Rich  what  I  hate most is the way you come out with these sorts of things
as  if  they  are  known "truths". If you had bothered to read the original
article  you  would  have  found reference to both the points you make. You
would  also  find  the  author  admits to not having suficient knowledge on
the  subject.  You however manage to produce your above remarks without any
sort of proof whatsoever but act as if you are the fountain of knowledge on
this (and any other) subject.

As  far  as  I  can  make  out  the article seems to make a mockery of your
second  "absolute  truth"  regarding B12 absorption. Maybe if in future you
could  at  least  start  off  your articles along the lines of "as far as I
know"  rather  than  attempting to present them as some kind of oracle from
on high.

Thanks  to  another  reader I have got the article back, I didn't intend to
repost it but here it is for the benefit of Rich.

->Food for a Future by Jon Wynne-Tyson, published 1979 by Universe Books,
->381 Park Avenue South, New York, N. Y. 10016, U.S.A.
->
->pages 110-111, footnote page 114:
->
->It  is  interesting  and possibly very relevant that lifelong vegans seldom
->suffer  from  B12 deficiency. Where deficiency has been established, it has
->been  mostly  in  people  who  have  switched, perhaps too abruptly, from a
->diet  based  on  animal  products.  This has helped to prompt the suspicion
->that  as  children brought up from birth on a vegan diet are able to absorb
->the  B12  made  by  the  bacteria  in  their  colons,  it  may  be that the
->perversion  of  the  body's  chemistry  through  meat  eating  has  made it
->impossible  for  a  small  number  of  people to switch to the more natural
->vegan diet later in life without showing signs of B12 deficiency. (2)
->
->This  is  not  to say, of course, that symptoms due to inadequate intake of
->B12  are  not  to  be  found in malnourished people the world over, whether
->they   are  omnivorous  or  more  selective  in  their  eating  habits.  An
->inadequate  diet  will  be  deficient  in a great many elements, whether or
->not  meat  is included. Although volumes have been written about B12, it is
->in  our  knowledge  of man's adaptational abilities that we have far to go;
->the  uncertainties  surrounding  a  clearly inadequate intake (irrespective
->of absorptional capacity) are less in dispute.
->
->It  is  known that the bacteria in the human colon synthesise B12, but that
->in  most  cases this is not available for absorption by the large intestine
->because  the  absorption  takes  place  in  the  lower end of the ileum (or
->small  intestine).  This  absorption  depends  upon  the  presense  of  the
->'intrinsic  factor',  a  protein-like substance produced in the stomach. In
->the  case  of  pernicious  anemia,  for  instance, this intrinsic factor is
->absent.  There  is  some  evidence  that  the large intestine of vegans can
->absorb  B12  (Ellis,  F.R.;  Wokes,  F.,  'Vitamin  B12', the Vegan, Winter
->1966/67)  -  a  point  that  may  well be given more prominence as research
->continues.
->
->(2)  to  put  the horse more squarely before the cart, there is a good deal
->of  support  for  the  theory  that  man lost his ability to manage without
->dietary  B12  when  he  took  to  meat  eating,  which caused the bacterium
->Escherichia  coli  to  move further down his intestinal tract to beyond the
->point  at  which  B12  could  be  absorbed  (see  A. G. Long and F. Wokjes,
->'Vitamins  and  Minerals  in Plants', Plant Foods for Human Nutrition, Vol.
->1,  No.  1,  May  1968). The upward movement of the Escherichia, it may be,
->is  encouraged  by  a  return  to that vegan pattern we abondoned. However,
->the  inner  reaches  of  our guts are not of universal fascination and most
->of   us   prefer  to  leave  the  problems  of  bacterial  balance  to  the
->scientists.  I  must  leave  it  to  the  relaly keen reader to explore for
->himself in greater depth.

-------
Michael Traub
BT Customer Systems, Brighton Systems Centre. traub@rtf.bt.co.uk
